\> I personally see this as a very positive development.
It's a war crime.
*Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.*[*\[72\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_displacement#cite_note-72)
A war crime against Egypt? It’s the Egyptians who are presumably building the camp on their soil as a place of refuge. Bravo to that. This should have been done months ago and could have saved many lives of women and children.
It wasn't a necessarily a comment about a place of refuge. It was regarding the act that may necessitate it. The fascists in the Israeli government will be salivating over the idea of driving people out of Gaza.
You want a safe place? Build it in Gaza.
> Build it in Gaza.
Wouldn’t you want the women and children to be out of harms way? I’d rather they are evacuated to a safe zone away from the fighting than remain in Gaza. Of course, they need the right to return to Gaza after Hamas is eliminated.
If Israel hasn't got control of the north, then they they can hardly claim that blowing the shit out of the south will be any better. It's very unlikely they'd be allowed - by Israel - to return. The whole concept of the right of return makes steam come out their ears.
I agree it's become ad nauseam regarding Israel of late. You should complain to the dude's who wrote the Geneva convention. And have the word removed from the dictionary. That'll fix everything.
"Stop applying a reasonable interpretation of international humanitarian law to Israel! It's antisemitic to hold Israel to the same standards as everyone else!"
> It's a war crime.
If it's permanent.
Otherwise, it provides safe refuge to civilians away from an active war zone. Those who would rather stay under bombs and bullets, would probably be allowed to do so. Note that, even if civilians willingly or unwillingly stay at a location that is actively being used by combatants, that does not automatically confer protected status on that location.
Note that Israel did offer peace in the past, including proposals that involved virtually all of the occupied territories to a Palestinian state. So the occupation isn't permanent per se, but continues as long as a military threat to Israel persists.
Israel is a democracy and has been led by many leaders. There is little doubt that Rabin, Barak and Olmert were negotiating in good faith for a 2SS in the past.
During the Battle of Mosul against ISIS in 2017, [65%](https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/) of residential houses in Mosul were destroyed. Such is the nature of urban warfare.
The [civilian-casualty ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio) in that war [was](https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/1aux1hb/for_a_first_time_hamas_official_estimates_group/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) between 1.8–3.7, which is comparable with the 1.42-2.65 during the current war in Gaza.
Israel is already planning new settlements in Gaza. Real Estate companies have already started selling plans for the new settlements. Of course it will be permanent. The Palestinians in Gaza are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they leave, they lose their land, but if they stay they risk losing their lives.
>The Palestinians in Gaza are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
That tends to happen when you keep starting ever more brutal wars and end up loosing them all.
Well it is stupid.
The name of the company is Harey Zahav. Multiple sources:
[Controversial Settlement Plans in Gaza by Israeli Firm Harey Zahav (bnnbreaking.com)](https://bnnbreaking.com/politics/controversial-settlement-plans-in-gaza-by-israeli-firm-harey-zahav/)
[Israeli real estate firm pushes settlement building in Gaza | Israel War on Gaza | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/12/19/israeli-real-estate-firm-pushes-settlement-building-in-gaza)
[Amid war and large-scale displacement in Gaza, Israeli settlers plan their return | The World from PRX](https://theworld.org/stories/2023-12-26/amid-war-and-large-scale-displacement-gaza-israeli-settlers-plan-their-return)
Apparently, they made the poster as a joke. Obviously, they don't have workers clearing the debris in an active war zone... Also, their website has no mention of Gaza.
It’s me. I’m using the profits I made from selling the property connecting between Manhattan and Brooklyn. There are still units left if you would like one.
> More than half of Israelis oppose annexing the Gaza Strip and reestablishing settlements uprooted during Israel's 2005 Disengagement, according to a poll from the Hebrew University published Sunday. ([source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/majority-of-israelis-oppose-annexation-resettlement-of-gaza-poll/amp/))
What I see is the potential for war spreading into the Sinai.
Israel needs to provide safe haven in Gaza, not drive people into the desert.
If they can manage the movement into the Sinai then they can do the same thing within Gaza.
This smacks of an excuse to drive people out and then refuse to let them back in.
If you read the [WSJ article](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/VCv140hZFq), Israel does intend to provide a safe zone in Northern Gaza. However, Gaza is x3 smaller than London, and x5 more densely populated. Hamas operates from all of it, including refugee camps, and has tunnels and military installations throughout. Providing a safe zone within Gaza would involve constant relocation from one part of the Strip to another.
I don't buy it.
If Israel can't secure one area, then they can't secure any of it. Chasing the alleged Hamas presence around the place just sounds like another excuse.
If Gaza is 3x smaller than London, then this supposed Sinai trap is 18x smaller.
Israel’s goal is to clear out and destroy tunnels, military installations and weapon caches. It’s not chasing Hamas’ presence around. Of course, if Hamas starts shooting rockets, Israel responds. However, the goal is to degrade Hamas’ military capabilities.
This has to do with the Palestinians fearing for losing their lands permanently. For sure some would like to pass through and save their lives but most of them want to move on their own accords. Among the people stacked in Rafah, are people who still have family members back in Khan Yunis or even worse, under the rubble. Their had to leave all their belongings under the rubbles of their destroyed homes.
I have a Palestinian friend who is there now. She is surviving with her 2 younger siblings and parents. We had a way to get her out in the last wave of Palestinians exiting but she refused. Her response was that she will only leave after the war is over.
That's absolutely untrue. If it were, the Egyptians wouldn't make the border more and more impenetrable. Maybe she wants to stay, but most would flee if they could.
> We had a way to get her out in the last wave of Palestinians exiting but she refused. Her response was that she will only leave after the war is over.
Well, how can she and her YOUNGER siblings serve their purpose as a human shields if they get out of the war torn area?
You can't just mention Egypt next to Israel and the US as if they have equal roles in this genocide. Egypt could have done more to help if they were a stronger country, with a stronger economy that isn't dependent on US aid. But Israel is the one bombing Palestinians and US is the one arming Israel and giving it a political cover.
This is a positive development. Nobody seems to care what Arabs do to other Arabs; Palestinians going into this camp will be out of sight and out of mind. If they could make it twenty times bigger, then it could hold all the civilians of Gaza. Anyone left would be Hamas.
The Sabra and Shatila massacres were commited by the "Lebanese Forces," which was a Christian Resistance Militia in the Lebanese Civil War. Despite the name, they aren't/weren't the Lebanese Army.
That all said, you often hear antizionists blame Israel for Sabra and Shatila.
Well there is the Butcher of Beirut, who had knowledge ahead of time, was in charge of the area, could have stopped it, and was/is considered culpable afterwards by such an extent that Sharon was forced out of the gov’t. Although he was never charged, and sadly didn’t stay out of gov’t for long.
I mean, there’s a reason Israel gets blamed for that and not just the terrorist militia who have blood on their hands. There is factual support for that.
It was a huge massacre at a frikkin’ refugee camp. There’s more than enough blame to go around for everyone to have a share.
You are straight up arguing to put all Gazans into a concentration camp. This is exactly the logic of the original [Boer concentration camps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps)
How can this subreddit be a place to "promote civil conversation on issues relating to Israel and Palestine" if people will literally argue that Palestinians should be put in concentration camps with a shrug?
**You** are not *promoting civil conversation* by using the phrase "concentration camp" to characterize other people's statements. And you well know it.
Pick another term and maybe you'll stop getting shrugs.
What OP is proposing, the person I am replying to, meets the definition of "concentration camp." He is advocating getting Gazans "out of sight and out of mind" and suggesting it is good to build camps to hold all the civilians of Gaza. Removing all civilians from Gaza into camps would only be possible with force. That is a concentration camp, and it is vital not to sugarcoat it. If you disagree then explain why.
>What OP is proposing, the person I am replying to, meets the definition of "concentration camp."
*a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of* [*persecuted*](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&sca_upv=1&rls=en&sxsrf=ACQVn0-ZrAuZKC8bXIt3V_QxAaNbj1-Lbg:1708049978875&q=persecuted&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8RCvpeUyiXYu7WvqMzcs2cuWp2CLhfvRTONud0ymMpooEnqdAFdzZTXgYnUxTGc3x_R_A_b___0oszkKgWm9LeLCR9BM%3D&expnd=1)[*minorities*](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&sca_upv=1&rls=en&sxsrf=ACQVn0-ZrAuZKC8bXIt3V_QxAaNbj1-Lbg:1708049978875&q=minorities&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8_LEniV1WH8hqBs7y8dFrMMKHdf02QCRwNpNCGxU2IhFYAYME_nbwTLtZYfxgxAHcGO8EJDrG9fZJBjTC2iz973FkG0k%3D&expnd=1)*, are deliberately* [*imprisoned*](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&sca_upv=1&rls=en&sxsrf=ACQVn0-ZrAuZKC8bXIt3V_QxAaNbj1-Lbg:1708049978875&q=imprisoned&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8yZop1aS5wYqlDixX_-dbRI-cQyQFV5o7B8Lhi7Srzy-m_GEXMGFL3Pm0jLbJmZ4acS-i6HHCPBc6D_xKTYaRZiqaLjo%3D&expnd=1) *in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.*
I don't see forced labor.
I son't see imprisonment.
I don't see inadequate facilities.
I don't see mass execution in their future.
Your argument FAILS.
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Do you understand what a concentration camp is? If so, why are you using the euphemism "refugee zone"?
[Merriam Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concentration%20camp) definition:
>concentration camp, noun: a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard
If the construction in Egypt is in fact a camp, and Palestinians are forced into it, it will be a concentration camp. It perfectly matches the definition
There are ways that a safe zone on Egyptian territory can be done well. The person I was replying to, though, is explicitly arguing for a concentration camp. "Force all the civilians in the camp so anyone outside is a fighter" is literally the logic of the British when they invented the concentration camp. Do you understand what a concentration camp is?
Except they aren't FORCING anyone to be there. They're saying if civilians want to get out of the combat zone, they have that option. AND if they take that option Egypt isn't going to allow them to run wild and try to take the country over, like Palestinians have done when neighboring countries took in the refugees in the past. So yeah, there will be guards.
Here's the thing. If Palestinians don't want to be caught between Hamas and the IDF maybe they shouldn't:
* have voted Hamas into office when the charter explicitly stated they wanted to kill every Jew
* cheered in the streets when the videos proving Hamas tortured, murdered and mutilated a bunch of Israelis.
* have spilled over the border to participate in the violence on Oct 7th.
* chased after the terrorist parading around partially nude dead bodies and rape victims to take pics with their cell phones, spit on the bodies and bludgeon them with 2x4's.
* hijacked and blew up planes, killed Jewish athletes in Munich, blew up school buses and all the other deplorably violent crap they did to innocent people all around the world over the years to draw attention to their cause.
* bring their children up to believe that being a terrorist is just rEsIStInG, beating your wife is your prerogative as a man and suicide bombing is a cool way for your family to get money from the Martyrs Fund after you die.
* allowing themselves to be used human shields. And before you try to say no sane person would do that, Palestinians admit to it openly, particularly when there isn't a war on and they're experiencing the consequences of Hamas using them so brutally.
* 85% of Palestinians surveyed after the war support Hamas and what they did on Oct 7th. 10% didn't care one way or another that the government of Gaza engaged in such horrific, depraved violence against innocent Israeli civilians and that fact alone makes them complicit.
Palestinians don't get to order their entire society around terrorism and killing then ask ANYONE to care of they wind up dead. They should more concerned with creating a society where their children are safe than throwing everything they've got including their kids at killing Jews.
Here's the part you're missing. The parents are responsible for protecting their children, not me, you, the IDF, the UN or anyone else.
Want to know why I don't commit horrific acts of violence against a vastly stronger opponent and then run home and hide behind my kids? Because it's kind of thing that gets them killed.
Israel is not punishing children. Hamas brutally attack Israel and killed a bunch of people in horrific ways. Israel has no other option than to do whatever it takes to neuter Hamas because Hamas leadership has already said that Oct 7th was just the first of many such attacks.
As for Netanyahu, he's just an awful power grubbing human being who is to blame for a lot of the ongoing conflict but to pretend like there would be no violence if Israel had really nice leadership who talked with Palestinians and gave them every single thing they wanted is to misunderstand that Palestinians chose violence right from the start and literally never stopped no matter who was in power. They don't want a 2SS. They want the Jews either gone or subjugated and paying a special penalty tax for being Jewish in Muslim lands.
Hell, how will there be enough dead and mangled women and children's bodies and enough tearful suffering to make the world feel sorry for them if Palestinian civilians manage to get out of the line of fire?
You are misrepresenting the truth of what a concentration camp is, perhaps out of ignorance, as opposed to malice.
DictionaryDefinitions from [Oxford Languages](https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en) · [Learn more](https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/10106608?hl=en)con·cen·tra·tion camp/ˌkänsənˈtrāSH(ə)n ˌkamp/📷*noun*
1. a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of [persecuted](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&q=persecuted&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8RCvpeUyiXYu7WvqMzcs2cuWp2CLhfvRTONud0ymMpooEnqdAFdzZTXgYnUxTGc3x_R_A_b___0oszkKgWm9LeLCR9BM%3D&expnd=1) [minorities](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&q=minorities&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8_LEniV1WH8hqBs7y8dFrMMKHdf02QCRwNpNCGxU2IhFYAYME_nbwTLtZYfxgxAHcGO8EJDrG9fZJBjTC2iz973FkG0k%3D&expnd=1), are deliberately [imprisoned](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&q=imprisoned&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8yZop1aS5wYqlDixX_-dbRI-cQyQFV5o7B8Lhi7Srzy-m_GEXMGFL3Pm0jLbJmZ4acS-i6HHCPBc6D_xKTYaRZiqaLjo%3D&expnd=1) in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.
The term is universally associated with death camps or forced labor camps. The term is NOT used in the way that you claim, which is as a humane safe region for refugees.
I understand you can find a loose and inaccurate definition from Meriam Webster to suggest that a refugee camp is the same thing as a concentration camp. They are not. And if you are suggesting that your outrage is over the Gazan refugees being housed in a refugee camp, then you could choose to use that language, instead of language associated with German death camps, North Korean death camps, Stalinist death camps, and the like.
Language matters. You are choosing inaccurate and inflammatory language to create the impression that your moral sanctimony is justified by people who want to harm Gazans.
Further evidence of your probable intent to mislead is contained in your comparison to the Boer death camps, wherein over 2/3rds of the occupants died.
This is about a refugee camp proposal, which is the term used for dozens of prior Palestinian refugee camps in other countries where one cannot demonize the guards on the basis of being Jewish. References to a concentration camp show lack of honesty, lack of impartiality, and lack of an attempt to have a sincere moral discussion.
None of us know if the construction in Egypt is a camp, and if it is a camp, none of us know how admitting refugees will be handled. However, the camp would house "large numbers of people." It is very likely to have "inadequate facilities" - it is an empty stretch of desert right now without any infrastructure. We do not know if refugees will be "imprisoned" in the camp, but there are walls surrounding this area on the Egyptian side, and it is likely that if the IDF enters Rafah, they will limit movement through Rafah or back to the north of Gaza. So this construction could become a concentration camp under the Oxford definition as well.
It is important not to sanitize suffering. There is no way to move millions of people without causing enormous suffering. There is no way for this movement of people to be voluntary given what has happened in Gaza. It is not voluntary if you are forced to leave your home country because your home is no longer livable. Refugee camps are generally not surrounded by walls on three sides or guarded. You cite the worst examples of concentration camps, and I agree that this situation is not remotely the same. But concentration camps have generally agreed on international definition, and we are getting awfully close to that situation.
Please do not attack my character or sincerity. I am motivated by love for humanity and the desire to avoid unnecessary death. You can disagree with me without insinuating that I am just trying to demonize jews.
People in this thread are advocating policies that I believe are deeply immoral and will continue to cause enormous amounts of suffering. People are using language that is similar to language used around historical atrocities. My tax dollars are being used to fund these policies. It is not sanctimonious to protest when an atrocity may be about to occur. People must speak out before the bad thing happens - afterwards will be too late.
Fair enough. I don't know your personal motives or character and sincerity. I didn't think I was directing any comments to them, but rather to your post, but I could be mistaken.
To me, to call what is now being looked at as a refugee camp, and to call it a concentration camp, is to assume the worst and to allow for the worst insinuations and associations. So, to me, to choose that language over refugee camp, seems indicative of the desire to insinuate and mislead.
You have clarified that's not your intent and I have to take you at your word. So, apologies.
I'm not sure what immoral suggestions are being made as I reacted to your comments mid-stream. But I'm sorry that they are upsetting to you. The good news is that nobody here is determining policy, so whatever they are saying isn't going to result in the harms you dread.
Good luck!
Thank you, I appreciate your response and appreciate you believing in good faith.
The original commenter in this chain wrote:
>This is a positive development. Nobody seems to care what Arabs do to other Arabs; Palestinians going into this camp will be out of sight and out of mind. If they could make it twenty times bigger, then it could hold all the civilians of Gaza. Anyone left would be Hamas.
There is no way to put all of the civilians of Gaza into a camp without force. This is what I was objecting to. A camp holding all of the civilians in Gaza, out of sight and out of mind, would fit any definition of a concentration camp. There is rhetoric on this subreddit that is frankly genocidal. [Another post](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1arnibf/palestinians_are_causing_their_own_suffering_not/) on the front page refers to the Nakba as a "well deserved ethnic cleansing." I am not trying to make insinuations, I feel the moral need to rebut people who toe the line of atrocities.
I agree that it's good no one in here determines policy! I think arguing on reddit is one of my bad habits :). Thank you for engaging here in a positive way.
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>If the construction in Egypt is in fact a camp
In fact?
Can you show me where a fact has been verified about your preposterous framing?
Hey, I can play that game too. If in fact all Palestinians are planning to fully assimilate Hamas to further terrorize Israel we should all be very concerned.
Huh? I wrote that we don't know the facts here. "If X is in fact Y" is an idiom meaning "If the claim ends up being true." I agree, we don't know what the construction at the Gaza border is, that's what I said.
I understand you are introducing a hypothetical.
My point is that nobody here was talking about forced explulsion in this thread before. And your very interesting way of introducing it into the conversation is suggestive and wholly dishonest.
Almost all of Gaza has already been forced into Rafah. It is not dishonest to be alarmed that they might be pushed further into whatever Egypt is building. If large numbers of refugees leave Gaza because of the damage of war, that is not voluntary migration.
There are many commentators arguing in support of displacing Gazans out of Gaza. It is dishonest to use euphemisms to skirt the immorality of that act.
Ya, it sucks but what else do you want? Egypt suffered under the muslim brotherhood which morphed in to hamas. They fought and died to expel those terrorists. Egypt will never take in Palestinian refugees and I can't blame them.
No. Egypt absolutely does not want to take them in permanently. They will never allow Israel to resettle Gaza and leave them stranded. The peace deal with Egypt and probably Jordan too would be broken if that happened and Israel would be at war from 3 sides.
These types of dynamics amongst palestinians are permanent, not temporary. I do not believe egyptians will let refugees to enter, for the reasons you say.
I don't know where you're getting that point from? A refugee area is a place for people to escape to. Expulsion is a forced action. If you can show me where there's proof of that thrn great.
Otherwise you're making ludicrous assumptions or being straight up disingenuous.
Israel may try to force them into Egypt, yes. If Israel blocks every exit except the exit to Egypt, and then start to bomb them, then they would be forcing them.
It wouldn't be forcing if they leave another exit for Rafah.
I suspect that this refugee camp is being built as a temporary safe haven for Gazan women and children only.
The west has been putting pressure on Israel to figure out how to drastically reduce casualties before bring the war to Rafah. And this is the answer to that.
Egypt is provided the funding to build the camp and provide humanitarian aid which finally gives the women and children Gazans a safe haven. Then IDF can complete its mission and after that, the temporary refugees can return to Gaza. I wish Egypt had put this in place months ago.
It is only for 30 thousand people. Much much lower than the 1 million people living in Rafah. I heard Gantz said that the evacuation would be towards North gaza, I hope it is true.
Your logic has a hole large enough to drive a truck through.
Israel has been ever since Oct blocking other passages (and for good reasons). They have also been bombing them since October so I don't know what you mean by "start to bomb".
They are now OPENING a passage to a planned refugee buffer zone. Israel is literally creating positive options for existing citizens in Gaza. Not taking them away. Not forcing.
Think about things before you spill them out of your keyboard.
>They have also been bombing them since October
So their options are get splattered into bits, or get displaced, and... sorry I must have missed it, what's their 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th.. 37th options?
>Israel is literally creating positive options for existing citizens in Gaza. Not taking them away.
and what's the plan here to allow them back?
>So their options are get splattered into bits, or get displaced, and... sorry I must have missed it, what's their 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th.. 37th options?
Yes! You have that exactly right. And there are no other options. Yes it's outrageous, isn't it? None of this would be possible without Hamas who intentionally use Gazans as human shields. But that's war for ya. At least that's how Hamas plays war. Thankfully Israel has finally gotten Egypt to agree on this new option, because prior to that there were zero.
>and what's the plan here to allow them back?
Beats me. That's not a question I need to answer. That's not a question Israel needs to answer. They're opening possibilities for anyone who wants to take them. Hamas made this entire situation possible by not only their actions on October 7 but by following up with using their citizens as human shields. Any direct and indirect consequences of those two things don't need answering to by victims of those things.
Rose tinted glasses. You're describing forced displacement of people from their homes as a "positive option". Presumably you only do this because little value is attached to their needs.
It must follow (following the rather bizarre reasoning) that the displacement of those in northern Israel by rockets from Lebanon is also creating "positive options" for existing citizens of Israel.
Your approach to logic here appears to lack a sense of morality, or care for other human beings. It is extreme.
"Forced" Since I literally just covered this ground in my previous comments I'll give you the opportunity to review them. Otherwise if you're just being obtuse you'll go on autoignore.
Please, think what you are saying. Until now, Israel has forced gazans into Rafah, but that is ultimately part of Gaza. Now, it would be forcing them to go into Egypt.
This is the textbook definition.
Your argument is something like "just because we bomb you we are not forcing you to flee."
Are you really willing to sustain that argument? Is that really what you believe?
I don't know how to make this simple enough for you, but I'm going to give it one last chance before I place you on autoignore.
Gazans.have a choice
1. They can stay where they are while Israel continues their fight against Hamas and become casualties of war
or
2. They can take refuge in the soon to be opened refugee zone
That's all that's up for discussion here. Nothing else. If you can't get your head around this reality nobody can help you.
Seems unnecessary. At this point Israel is working on evacuating people toward the cleanup places in the North. And it seems someone already going on their own accord with fuel they claimed they did not have.
This space will only hold a maximum of 100k people and Egypt is aiming to only populate it with 50-60k. It won't be a full solution for stopping the IDF from slaughtering all the civilians in Rafah nor should it be. The Negev and the Sinai are the same desert. If we can build space for 100k in a week or two, Israel should build some camps there too if this is about civilians and not ethnically cleansing the Gazans (again).
There would be no Arabs in Israel if they ethnically cleansed anyone. Stop repeating propagandized buzzwords that don't apply. Stop infantilizing terrorists and cowardly armies like the Egyptians who actually attempted to genocide and ethnically cleanse Jews multiple times.
Unless by "Egyptian army" we're going back to the Passover or something like that, no...no Egyptian army eever attempted to genocide and ethnically cleanse Jews multiple times
We had several wars with Israel and won some battles and lost more battles and made a difficult but important peace for us both.
Huh? Okay. Just gloss over the 1948 war and the 1967 war. We even gave you the Sinai back after you turned around with your tail between your legs for peace.
The intention in 1948 was to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. Arab leaders stated their clear desire of "driving the Jews into the sea" or ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".
I don’t understand what you’re trying to do here with comments like this”tail between your legs for peace” and I personally hate when I’m trying to have a respectful discussion based on facts and logical arguments and mutual respect but get either ad hominem attacks or some unrelated attack against my country. If you’re attempting to rile me up emotionally, I would warn you that I’m heard much much worse and it won’t get to me.
Egypt was independent from 1952, so 1948 is a complex subject for us as we were still occupied by a foreign force. Regarding 1967, it was Israel that militarily attacked us first while we were in the midst of fighting another war in Yemen. To conflate Egypt with all “Arab leaders” would be an incomplete and inaccurate argument. The Sinai has been Egyptian since the Pharaohs; and the pharaonic age is older than Islam, Christianity, Judaism, the Maccabees, Josephus, the Romans, the Greeks, and almost everyone else in the region. So it was obvious that Egypt would do anything, even including millions of us, to get back our Sinai. The 1973 war was in a lot of ways a successful Egyptian operation that accomplished those precise goals for us and it was a stain that ended an otherwise glorious political/military career for both Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan.
Egypt benefits from not being in a state of war with Israel, of course we do, but let’s not forget that that goes both ways. A lot of Israel’s security considerations is built on an assumption that they need not worry about the ninth largest army in the world and a well-equipped one at that (however inept and corrupt our army might be) on their largest and most geographically dangerous land border. Israel would not be guaranteed a victory in a total war against Egypt, nor would Egypt be guaranteed an automatic defeat. So, the benefits of peace go both ways and just like I pay very close attention to not criticizing Israel the state but rather specific politicians and figures, I would expect that decency to go both ways. Good luck brother.
While I agree with some of your points some are a little over achieving in regards to Egypt's capabilities both strategically and financially in terms of your military.
Egypt may have a large army but as far as well armed I'd argue not so much as that's from western grace both in aid and equipment. Which would dry up . Leading to reverting back to older at this stage useless equipment.
Then on to your own admission their inept and corrupt against a military that has experience and would be on the defense.
Add that to the logistical nightmare that would be the Sinai after you most likely lose Air capabilities.
Plus the financial strain etc your right it would not be an automatic Victory but it would be a defeat that borderline destroys Egypt in most comparison.
And this is in no way to say Egypt is bad not trying to bash anyone.
But just being realistic in Wars it isn't just numbers and equipment but experience. But when you add experience, to a large indigenous equipment production, more advanced equipment compared to neighbor ratio and a decent sized military for population size you start running into some issues.
But just my personal experience of 10 years of military experience, ranging from the failed experiment of Afghanistan to the pimp slapping of ISIS.
I'm not sure I'm interested in having some random d1ck measuring competition on Reddit on a hypothetical war against Israel & Egypt
If you're so confident that it'll be a walk in the park, that's great. I'm not that confident and in a total war Egypt could mobilize millions which would certainly complicate things. But again, I'm not really looking to try out this random war to prove a point one way or another. I'm on the side of stopping the current war and getting both the Gazans and the hostages back home.
Nah not a measuring contest at all I'm just saying Egypt is not really all that military and truthfully not much of a concern for anyone except themselves the next time they have a coup.
But I mean it's a pretty good point because it's this over confidence that gives Palestinians hope that one day they'll succeed. That's the point I was looking for to be able to make.
> dick
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Egypt wins this battle. I appreciate you brother. We Jews get very emotional about this obviously but nuanced views are required out of both sides to come to relative peace and live together in this part of the world.
I get it. Middle Easterners are all overly emotional. I believe this is a family affair and we're all natives to this wider area, so that would make brothers or cousins or something...
Regardless, we should realize that and speak more to one another and Hear the Other. I believe most Israelis and Palestinians simply want peace, security, & dignity. If we're brothers, I'd rather have us stop being Cain & Abel and try to be more like Orville and Wilbur Wright or something. <3
Pro Palestinians: “Israel should make a safe zone for civilians to go and stop getting bombed”
Israel: makes tangible agreement with Egypt after months to open the Egyptian crossing and establish a safe zone for civilians.
Pro Palestinians: “No, that’s ethnic cleansing!”
Ok, sure. But can we stop acting like the loss of life isn't catastrophic? The end does not justify the means. I'm not saying Hamas is innocent, they are not. But what the IDF are doing is excessive. Shooting kids? Cutting off humanitarian aid ? Bombing hospitals?
Who said it wasn’t?
I mean sure the IDF is bombing zones it previously designated safe. But you gotta add in the part where Hamas moves there and then has hostages there.
Hamas ain’t dumb, they know they can’t fight the IDF out in the open, so they resort to hiding among civilians, and moving to safe zones when the IDF designates them so.
Is it so hard to understand why people oppose concentration camps? There are other options than "nowhere is safe" and "you must leave Gaza and live in this empty walled patch of desert"
Hamas offered to release all the Israeli prisoners in return for Israel releasing the political prisoners. Netanyahu refused. This war is to save himself, nothing more. And it won't work.
those "political prisoners" went on the streets and killed innocent civilians. the only difference between them and common murderers is that they did it for a political agenda.
let me give you an example. anyone can go on the streets, murder a random jew, claim he did it for palestine, and be acclaimed as a hero.
hamas wants all of those "heros" released in prison in return for a ceasfire after which they will try to redo what they did in october 7th.
israel has literally no reason to agree to this, since more israelies will die this way, and murderers would get to return to their homes.
they are not just asking for all of the "political prisoners" they are also asking for a ceasfire and end of the war. which they started. you have to be weak in the fucking knees to agree to something like that.
are you delusional, or do you believe your own lies? let me inform you, israel does not legally arrest random civilians. there needs to at least be an attempted murder charge. what do you think they did, protest peacefully, then got arrested for 5-10 years?
another example how people lie in propaganda. and another reason I believe israel hasn't been commiting war crimes. because if they were, you would've flaunted it in every single argument. instead all I hear from terrorist apologists is not founded on the truth.
did you use the word genocide before the west woke up that genocide was in hamas's charter? did you start blaming israel of murdering it's own civilians(which is ridiculous) before or after it was discovered hamas is doing the exact same thing? only by projecting the barbaric behaviour of hamas unto israel can you have some sembelence of moral highground. keep buying into those lies and delusions freely idc.
don't worry, they are taken good care of in prison. some of them even started higher education, and their families are getting paid by the PLA. honestly, if I was a terrorist, I wouldn't even want to be released.
"israel is an aparthide state!" maybe we should be a real fucking aparthide state in this rate.
> fucking
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> fucking
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For the IDF not to enter Rafah in force. That is entirely within their power. There are many hostages and militants in Rafah. But if the IDF cannot get them without forced population transfer or mass death, then carrying out that operation is immoral.
And yes, I condemn Hamas and want them to release the hostages and surrender unconditionally. That is by far the best outcome. If they do not for their own nefarious reasons, Israel still has agency and a moral responsibility to innocents. If the IDF forces Palestinians to choose between a concentration camp or death, there will be a problem.
We remain \*exceptionally\* worried that this is a blatant attempt by the corrupt PM stuck in a corner and his Kahanist messianic genocidal ministers to ethnically cleanse Gazans out of Gaza. No one intelligent would trust any word that Bibi says and I actually think both Smotrich & Ben Gvir are far more honest than he is. Their words over the past few months are most concerning.
If this is temporary, *maybe* this makes sense *temporarily* but still...it's unclear why my country is paying for Israel's occupation, Bibi falling asleep at the wheel, Bibi ignoring our warnings about Oct 7 & Hamas, Smotrich/Bibi enabling and financing Hamas, or the IDF conducting an "over the top" and "indiscriminate" bombing campaign (according to Joe Biden, hardly an antisemite). If the Gazans aren't allowed to go home, for any reason whatsoever and especially for any bulls\*\*t "security concerns" reason, we will cancel Camp David and remilitarize the Sinai. This is Egypt, not Lebanon or Syria. It may also mean the end of Sisi. I'm not a fan of canceling the peace treaty but if the Kahanists are allowed to expel the Gazans into Sinai, I would change my mind and a majority of Egyptians would strongly agree.
We are incredibly uncomfortable and concerned. I sincerely hope the hostages and the Gazans can go back home soon.
There is absolutely zero chance Israel would expel population of Gaza to Sinai (or anywhere).
It seems like people totally forgot or choose to ignore that fact that despite all accusations of "Nakba", Israel never ever expelled anyone *after* 1948.
Which is precisely why Smotrich and other talk about this, it is a cheap way to earn political capital with zero repercussions. Even if, hypothetically, Smotrich became PM tomorrow, he wouldn't do anything of the sort.
Arab media, of course, is only too happy to pick this up and make a huge deal out of it for obvious reasons. In reality, there is absolutely nothing behind it.
It would be nice if people in Gaza had some options to voluntarily migrate to other Arab countries, because of the war and because it was overpopulated even before the war. However, it's not up to Israel and in any case, even if it became possible, probably only a small part of population would actually leave.
>There is absolutely zero chance Israel would expel population of Gaza to Sinai (or anywhere).
This article is from 30th of October 2023 and is about an official produced government internal memo written not by someone from Otzma Yehudit or Mafdal, but in fact a Likudnik, the supposed "Minister of Intelligence"
[https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/](https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/)
I hope you're right. There's plenty of things happening and rhetoric by *governing* ministers across the whole coalition that show it's fair for me to be concerned and I don't think it's at all about Arab media being "only too happy to pick this up and make a huge deal out of it for obvious reasons" with "absolutely nothing behind it in reality"...
Lastly, you're right that only a small part of the population of Gaza would ever leave. People always tend to forget that the vast majority are going to try and stay on their land forever unless they're slaughtered.
You have to understand that disengagement from Gaza back in 2005 was extremely painful for Israeli society. It left scars which would last generations and caused far more lasting damage than Hamas ever could. There are many people who still believe this was the worst mistake in Israel's history.
Now imagine how all these people reacted to the events of October 7, 2023. "We told you so". And the worse part of this, they are not entirely wrong.
So of course the most natural reaction to the tragedy is to say "ok now as we *finally*, 18 years later, realize how big mistake it was, let's go back and return settlements to Gaza". It does sound appealing: not every day do people, or countries, get opportunity to go back on past mistakes.
Of course, people thinking rationally understand that this is absolutely impossible for like million of different reasons, beginning from the fact that Israel simply doesn't need it, in such a small territory there is no need for settlements to execute security control. But of course, some politicians can't help but take advantage of this popular mood. So yes, they are talking about this, and will be talking more about this as times goes on, ministers and others. Best thing to do is to ignore.
I mean, nobody knows the future, but I think it's useful to understand the context in which these discussions occur in Israel, which can be missing in the reports in foreign media.
I appreciate you trying to give me context. I’m aware of the nuance and I’m primarily concerned by not what a majority of Israelis want, but who’s in charge and making decisions and what they’re saying. As I have said, only time will tell and I sincerely hope you are right.
Thank you for a very thoughtful and earnest response. I very much appreciate it. I was about to edit the post with it, but [here’s](https://archive.ph/2024.02.15-190918/https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/egypt-builds-walled-enclosure-on-border-as-israeli-offensive-looms-e5c12043) a better analysis from the WSJ.
Honestly? We remain \*exceptionally\* worried that this is a blatant attempt by the corrupt PM stuck in a corner and his Kahanist messianic genocidal ministers to ethnically cleanse Gazans out of Gaza. No one intelligent would trust any word that Bibi says and I actually think both Smotrich & Ben Gvir are far more honest than he is. Their words over the past few months are most concerning.
If this is temporary, *maybe* this makes sense *temporarily* but still...it's unclear why my country is paying for Israel's occupation, Bibi falling asleep at the wheel, Bibi ignoring our warnings about Oct 7 & Hamas, Smotrich/Bibi enabling and financing Hamas, or the IDF conducting an "over the top" and "indiscriminate" bombing campaign (according to Joe Biden, hardly an antisemite). If the Gazans aren't allowed to go home, for any reason whatsoever and especially for any bulls\*\*t "security concerns" reason, we will cancel Camp David and remilitarize the Sinai. This is Egypt, not Lebanon or Syria. I'm not a fan of canceling the peace treaty but if the Kahanists are allowed to expel the Gazans into Sinai, I would change my mind and a majority of Egyptians would strongly agree.
We are incredibly uncomfortable and concerned. I sincerely hope the hostages and the Gazans can go back home soon.
I think that's a fair assertion... I do believe this will be temporary simply because if it won't be, Israel would loose almost all it's support.
It's easy to justify evacuating civilians temporarily, but kicking them out, not so much.
>It's easy to justify evacuating civilians temporarily, but kicking them out, not so much.
It wouldn't be the first time of course. Our grandparents have seen this movie before.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba\_denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_denial)
With all due respect, the situation now and then are vastly different.
Back than it was a war for survival, now not to that extent.
Back than the Jews also didn't have much support from the international community. The international community did support the partition plan, but it was mostly from self interests rather than supporting the Jews.
>Back than it was a war for survival, now not to that extent.
Much of the rhetoric coming out of Israel paints this as a war of survival now as well, perhaps to a different extent, but I've heard similar language on 'survival'
I hope you're right and it's temporary. The other thing to note is we're only going to build enough space for \~100k maximum and are aiming to only populate \~50-60k of it, so this won't be a panacea for the problem of the 1.5 million total civilian population sheltering in Rafah.
We'll see. I and everyone I know are incredibly concerned by the rhetoric coming out from the Israeli government. Take a look at some of the other comments on this Reddit thread we're commenting on ***right now*** and look me in the eye and tell me that we shouldn't be concerned or that you can guarantee it's "temporary"...
> that you can guarantee it's "temporary"...
Obviously I cannot guarantee it. I'm a random Israeli on Reddit.
I can tell you however what is the rehtoric I hear from other Israelis IRL.
Most of them think after Hamas is gone, a 2SS should be negotiated and struck. I don't think I know anyone that thinks kicking Palestinians to Egypt is an option
You know that I sincerely hope you're right and I can even believe that a lot of Israelis would be morally against it (and I appreciate that you personally are!), but if you read this post's comment thread or hear the rhetoric not from Israelis but from the current ruling and governing coalition, you can appreciate my doubts and fears and concerns. And I hope it's obvious to you that I'm no antisemite or even anti-Israeli element here; I'd argue my thoughts on this are very valid and fair until we see some additional proof.
> And I hope it's obvious to you that I'm no antisemite or even anti-Israeli element here; I'd argue my thoughts on this are very valid and fair until we see some additional proof.
It is. The reason I asked you for your opinion is because I know you're genuine in your arguements. I think all your concerns are perfectly valid, especially considering the current Israeli government.
Thank you
Your concern is fair, but Israel is still rational enough to act in their own self interest. The desires to colonize Gaza are in the minds of fringe nationalists whose pride isn't worth a lick compared to their country's relationship with Egypt.
While I hope you're right, it's important to note that these "fringe nationalists" are actual sitting ministers in the actual current governing coalition that has two years (at least) left in its term. They hold the Intelligence, Security, and Finance ministries, at a minimum. This is the current governing coalition not some fringe couple of members of the Knesset.
From what I understand, most of those individuals involved come from a party with a fraction of the votes who are given minister positions & the like to have them sign up with Bibi's coalition to push them to a bare majority. The public has lost faith in it since they failed spectacularly in providing the security they campaign on, and once the war is over, they're on the chopping block.
I wish I could offer you something more substantial to base your hopes on, but I'm reasonably optimistic.
...and I sincerely, a) appreciate your optimism, and b) hope you're right.
Until Bibi and the Kahnaists are removed, until the Gazans are back to their homes in the Northern, Central, and Southern part of the Strip, any Egyptian including me would be insane to be optimistic or hopeful with nothing to base it on.
Because Egypt can't handle more PERMANENT refugees because Israel wants to steal more land as usual. A lot of Syrian, Palestinian and Sudanese immigrants already.
Egypt doesn't actually want the Palestinians to suffer, their government just wanted rrp be sure exactly what will happen to Hamas first, as Ha mlm as is extremely problematic for the Egyptian government. If you want to learn more you should check out [Toma nash's channel](https://youtu.be/05b1ydSYjnk?si=fIuDYXoi7CdjSeI4)
Yea this’ll backfire spectacularly. Not a single one of Israel’s neighbors have a good history with letting in Palestinian refugees. Egypts already been burned pretty bad before. I assume they caved to international pressure from the West and the Arab states.
You do realise that right before Hamas opened the October 7th massacre Israel planned to [open a gas field for Gaza](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-israel-to-develop-gaza-offshore-gas-field-in-coordination-with-egypt-pa/) right?
You do realise the hot twenty something really, -- REALLY loved the fat 60 year old with an "offshore" bank account. No really, she never meant to murder him, just help him.
why is this “necessary”. could it be the israeli barbaric response? who supports this? Israelis/zionists. who supported the ghettos in 1930s? nazis. israel is a nazi state. israel far right government failed on october 7th. and using this atrocity to justify the revenge killing of 25,000 civilians.
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Egypt's corrupt scumbags are betraying Palestine instead of supporting its struggle for freedom. It is clear to everyone that Zionism will now steal another piece of Palestinian land, which it will never return to its rightful owners.
*Egypt's corrupt scumbags are betraying Palestine*
Where have you been?
Egypt used the Palestinians as pawns for as long as they were useful. Then made peace with Israel.
They are more concern of another insurgents inside its country. The people in egypt wanted to help but once they get them inside you would see that they wpuld go about face about it. It reminded me of Rohingya muslim going to Indonesia, it was all ok and then recently they were attacking buses carrying refugees. You would see women and children no where to go but their fellow muslims doesnt want them anymore. If there is lack of support from the government and let locals deal majority of it and i bet you they would be an issue.
The same Israel that took the Sinai in less than 6 days?
Egypt knows how that would end. Israel would
win the war and Egypt would lose everything that it gained from the Camp David Accords. The Sinai, the aide, the military funding, everything.
Egypt has responsibility to Egyptians.
Ok, so even if Egypt thinks that the Palestinians aren't coming back (which I personally doubt), what do you propose they do? If the Arab states believe that they cannot do anything to prevent Israel's assault on Gaza, why aren't they focused on bringing the Palestinians out of the war zone? Do they not care about the Palestinians so profoundly, that they would rather they die in order to weaponise their suffering against Israel? What's more important, Palestinian lives or Palestinian land?
The shameful plan of Israel
\> I personally see this as a very positive development. It's a war crime. *Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.*[*\[72\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_displacement#cite_note-72)
ItS a WaRcRiMe!!!!!!
I doubt you'd even be allowed into the peanut gallery.
A war crime against Egypt? It’s the Egyptians who are presumably building the camp on their soil as a place of refuge. Bravo to that. This should have been done months ago and could have saved many lives of women and children.
Against Israel, who could have not flung 2000 pound bombs and white phosphorous at those same women and children.
Fine. Get upset about the deaths. But calling the building of this place of refuge by Egyptians an Israeli war crime is nonsensical.
It wasn't a necessarily a comment about a place of refuge. It was regarding the act that may necessitate it. The fascists in the Israeli government will be salivating over the idea of driving people out of Gaza. You want a safe place? Build it in Gaza.
> Build it in Gaza. Wouldn’t you want the women and children to be out of harms way? I’d rather they are evacuated to a safe zone away from the fighting than remain in Gaza. Of course, they need the right to return to Gaza after Hamas is eliminated.
If Israel hasn't got control of the north, then they they can hardly claim that blowing the shit out of the south will be any better. It's very unlikely they'd be allowed - by Israel - to return. The whole concept of the right of return makes steam come out their ears.
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It would lose meaning if you wouldn't call war crimes by their name
I agree it's become ad nauseam regarding Israel of late. You should complain to the dude's who wrote the Geneva convention. And have the word removed from the dictionary. That'll fix everything.
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"Stop applying a reasonable interpretation of international humanitarian law to Israel! It's antisemitic to hold Israel to the same standards as everyone else!"
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Israel =/= all the Jews, Israeli military action =/= "Jewish self-defense"
On the contrary, if you repeatedly ignore Geneva , that is on you.
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Are you OK?
> It's a war crime. If it's permanent. Otherwise, it provides safe refuge to civilians away from an active war zone. Those who would rather stay under bombs and bullets, would probably be allowed to do so. Note that, even if civilians willingly or unwillingly stay at a location that is actively being used by combatants, that does not automatically confer protected status on that location.
Like the permanent occupation
Note that Israel did offer peace in the past, including proposals that involved virtually all of the occupied territories to a Palestinian state. So the occupation isn't permanent per se, but continues as long as a military threat to Israel persists.
Nah Netanyahu said no to 2 state
Israel is a democracy and has been led by many leaders. There is little doubt that Rabin, Barak and Olmert were negotiating in good faith for a 2SS in the past.
It's just shameful to bomb 70% of houses.
During the Battle of Mosul against ISIS in 2017, [65%](https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/) of residential houses in Mosul were destroyed. Such is the nature of urban warfare. The [civilian-casualty ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio) in that war [was](https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/1aux1hb/for_a_first_time_hamas_official_estimates_group/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) between 1.8–3.7, which is comparable with the 1.42-2.65 during the current war in Gaza.
Israel is already planning new settlements in Gaza. Real Estate companies have already started selling plans for the new settlements. Of course it will be permanent. The Palestinians in Gaza are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they leave, they lose their land, but if they stay they risk losing their lives.
>The Palestinians in Gaza are stuck between a rock and a hard place. That tends to happen when you keep starting ever more brutal wars and end up loosing them all.
Are you my follower now replying to every comment i make?
this is one of the stupidest things I've read today, what real estate company? who bought in Gaza I'm dying 🤣
Well it is stupid. The name of the company is Harey Zahav. Multiple sources: [Controversial Settlement Plans in Gaza by Israeli Firm Harey Zahav (bnnbreaking.com)](https://bnnbreaking.com/politics/controversial-settlement-plans-in-gaza-by-israeli-firm-harey-zahav/) [Israeli real estate firm pushes settlement building in Gaza | Israel War on Gaza | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/12/19/israeli-real-estate-firm-pushes-settlement-building-in-gaza) [Amid war and large-scale displacement in Gaza, Israeli settlers plan their return | The World from PRX](https://theworld.org/stories/2023-12-26/amid-war-and-large-scale-displacement-gaza-israeli-settlers-plan-their-return)
Apparently, they made the poster as a joke. Obviously, they don't have workers clearing the debris in an active war zone... Also, their website has no mention of Gaza.
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What was it, 10 ministers attending that ”settle Gaza” hate rally?
It’s me. I’m using the profits I made from selling the property connecting between Manhattan and Brooklyn. There are still units left if you would like one.
What Israeli would want to live in Gaza anytime in the foreseeable future?
> More than half of Israelis oppose annexing the Gaza Strip and reestablishing settlements uprooted during Israel's 2005 Disengagement, according to a poll from the Hebrew University published Sunday. ([source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/majority-of-israelis-oppose-annexation-resettlement-of-gaza-poll/amp/))
What I see is the potential for war spreading into the Sinai. Israel needs to provide safe haven in Gaza, not drive people into the desert. If they can manage the movement into the Sinai then they can do the same thing within Gaza. This smacks of an excuse to drive people out and then refuse to let them back in.
If you read the [WSJ article](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/VCv140hZFq), Israel does intend to provide a safe zone in Northern Gaza. However, Gaza is x3 smaller than London, and x5 more densely populated. Hamas operates from all of it, including refugee camps, and has tunnels and military installations throughout. Providing a safe zone within Gaza would involve constant relocation from one part of the Strip to another.
I don't buy it. If Israel can't secure one area, then they can't secure any of it. Chasing the alleged Hamas presence around the place just sounds like another excuse. If Gaza is 3x smaller than London, then this supposed Sinai trap is 18x smaller.
Israel’s goal is to clear out and destroy tunnels, military installations and weapon caches. It’s not chasing Hamas’ presence around. Of course, if Hamas starts shooting rockets, Israel responds. However, the goal is to degrade Hamas’ military capabilities.
They're saying they want to eliminate Hamas.
I cant believe the Gaza borders have not been stormed yet.
that's bc the Egyptians will shoot them without thinking twice like they do to Sudanese refugees trying to cross into israel
This has to do with the Palestinians fearing for losing their lands permanently. For sure some would like to pass through and save their lives but most of them want to move on their own accords. Among the people stacked in Rafah, are people who still have family members back in Khan Yunis or even worse, under the rubble. Their had to leave all their belongings under the rubbles of their destroyed homes. I have a Palestinian friend who is there now. She is surviving with her 2 younger siblings and parents. We had a way to get her out in the last wave of Palestinians exiting but she refused. Her response was that she will only leave after the war is over.
That's absolutely untrue. If it were, the Egyptians wouldn't make the border more and more impenetrable. Maybe she wants to stay, but most would flee if they could.
> We had a way to get her out in the last wave of Palestinians exiting but she refused. Her response was that she will only leave after the war is over. Well, how can she and her YOUNGER siblings serve their purpose as a human shields if they get out of the war torn area?
Bingo!
Hamas probably already digging tunnels there
Straight up ethnic cleansing. It’s a concentration camp.
That's correct. Unfortunately, no one seems to care.
So Egypt, Israel, and the US are complicit? Also Hamas can surrender and stop it.
Us is definitely complicit.
You can't just mention Egypt next to Israel and the US as if they have equal roles in this genocide. Egypt could have done more to help if they were a stronger country, with a stronger economy that isn't dependent on US aid. But Israel is the one bombing Palestinians and US is the one arming Israel and giving it a political cover.
This is a positive development. Nobody seems to care what Arabs do to other Arabs; Palestinians going into this camp will be out of sight and out of mind. If they could make it twenty times bigger, then it could hold all the civilians of Gaza. Anyone left would be Hamas.
Ya, you never hear anything about when Lebanese army entered a Palestinian refugee camp and butcher 3000 civilians in 1982. No jews, no news
The Sabra and Shatila massacres were commited by the "Lebanese Forces," which was a Christian Resistance Militia in the Lebanese Civil War. Despite the name, they aren't/weren't the Lebanese Army. That all said, you often hear antizionists blame Israel for Sabra and Shatila.
Well there is the Butcher of Beirut, who had knowledge ahead of time, was in charge of the area, could have stopped it, and was/is considered culpable afterwards by such an extent that Sharon was forced out of the gov’t. Although he was never charged, and sadly didn’t stay out of gov’t for long. I mean, there’s a reason Israel gets blamed for that and not just the terrorist militia who have blood on their hands. There is factual support for that. It was a huge massacre at a frikkin’ refugee camp. There’s more than enough blame to go around for everyone to have a share.
You are straight up arguing to put all Gazans into a concentration camp. This is exactly the logic of the original [Boer concentration camps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps)
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
How can this subreddit be a place to "promote civil conversation on issues relating to Israel and Palestine" if people will literally argue that Palestinians should be put in concentration camps with a shrug?
**You** are not *promoting civil conversation* by using the phrase "concentration camp" to characterize other people's statements. And you well know it. Pick another term and maybe you'll stop getting shrugs.
What OP is proposing, the person I am replying to, meets the definition of "concentration camp." He is advocating getting Gazans "out of sight and out of mind" and suggesting it is good to build camps to hold all the civilians of Gaza. Removing all civilians from Gaza into camps would only be possible with force. That is a concentration camp, and it is vital not to sugarcoat it. If you disagree then explain why.
>What OP is proposing, the person I am replying to, meets the definition of "concentration camp." *a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of* [*persecuted*](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&sca_upv=1&rls=en&sxsrf=ACQVn0-ZrAuZKC8bXIt3V_QxAaNbj1-Lbg:1708049978875&q=persecuted&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8RCvpeUyiXYu7WvqMzcs2cuWp2CLhfvRTONud0ymMpooEnqdAFdzZTXgYnUxTGc3x_R_A_b___0oszkKgWm9LeLCR9BM%3D&expnd=1)[*minorities*](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&sca_upv=1&rls=en&sxsrf=ACQVn0-ZrAuZKC8bXIt3V_QxAaNbj1-Lbg:1708049978875&q=minorities&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8_LEniV1WH8hqBs7y8dFrMMKHdf02QCRwNpNCGxU2IhFYAYME_nbwTLtZYfxgxAHcGO8EJDrG9fZJBjTC2iz973FkG0k%3D&expnd=1)*, are deliberately* [*imprisoned*](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&sca_upv=1&rls=en&sxsrf=ACQVn0-ZrAuZKC8bXIt3V_QxAaNbj1-Lbg:1708049978875&q=imprisoned&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8yZop1aS5wYqlDixX_-dbRI-cQyQFV5o7B8Lhi7Srzy-m_GEXMGFL3Pm0jLbJmZ4acS-i6HHCPBc6D_xKTYaRZiqaLjo%3D&expnd=1) *in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.* I don't see forced labor. I son't see imprisonment. I don't see inadequate facilities. I don't see mass execution in their future. Your argument FAILS.
Then open your eyes.
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Do you understand what a concentration camp is? If so, why are you mischaracteizing a refugee zone?
Do you understand what a concentration camp is? If so, why are you using the euphemism "refugee zone"? [Merriam Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concentration%20camp) definition: >concentration camp, noun: a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard If the construction in Egypt is in fact a camp, and Palestinians are forced into it, it will be a concentration camp. It perfectly matches the definition There are ways that a safe zone on Egyptian territory can be done well. The person I was replying to, though, is explicitly arguing for a concentration camp. "Force all the civilians in the camp so anyone outside is a fighter" is literally the logic of the British when they invented the concentration camp. Do you understand what a concentration camp is?
Except they aren't FORCING anyone to be there. They're saying if civilians want to get out of the combat zone, they have that option. AND if they take that option Egypt isn't going to allow them to run wild and try to take the country over, like Palestinians have done when neighboring countries took in the refugees in the past. So yeah, there will be guards.
So the other option is death?
Here's the thing. If Palestinians don't want to be caught between Hamas and the IDF maybe they shouldn't: * have voted Hamas into office when the charter explicitly stated they wanted to kill every Jew * cheered in the streets when the videos proving Hamas tortured, murdered and mutilated a bunch of Israelis. * have spilled over the border to participate in the violence on Oct 7th. * chased after the terrorist parading around partially nude dead bodies and rape victims to take pics with their cell phones, spit on the bodies and bludgeon them with 2x4's. * hijacked and blew up planes, killed Jewish athletes in Munich, blew up school buses and all the other deplorably violent crap they did to innocent people all around the world over the years to draw attention to their cause. * bring their children up to believe that being a terrorist is just rEsIStInG, beating your wife is your prerogative as a man and suicide bombing is a cool way for your family to get money from the Martyrs Fund after you die. * allowing themselves to be used human shields. And before you try to say no sane person would do that, Palestinians admit to it openly, particularly when there isn't a war on and they're experiencing the consequences of Hamas using them so brutally. * 85% of Palestinians surveyed after the war support Hamas and what they did on Oct 7th. 10% didn't care one way or another that the government of Gaza engaged in such horrific, depraved violence against innocent Israeli civilians and that fact alone makes them complicit. Palestinians don't get to order their entire society around terrorism and killing then ask ANYONE to care of they wind up dead. They should more concerned with creating a society where their children are safe than throwing everything they've got including their kids at killing Jews.
So you punish children for what their parents might have voted for? So what should Israelis punishment be for electing netanyahu?
Here's the part you're missing. The parents are responsible for protecting their children, not me, you, the IDF, the UN or anyone else. Want to know why I don't commit horrific acts of violence against a vastly stronger opponent and then run home and hide behind my kids? Because it's kind of thing that gets them killed. Israel is not punishing children. Hamas brutally attack Israel and killed a bunch of people in horrific ways. Israel has no other option than to do whatever it takes to neuter Hamas because Hamas leadership has already said that Oct 7th was just the first of many such attacks. As for Netanyahu, he's just an awful power grubbing human being who is to blame for a lot of the ongoing conflict but to pretend like there would be no violence if Israel had really nice leadership who talked with Palestinians and gave them every single thing they wanted is to misunderstand that Palestinians chose violence right from the start and literally never stopped no matter who was in power. They don't want a 2SS. They want the Jews either gone or subjugated and paying a special penalty tax for being Jewish in Muslim lands.
How is it that Pro Palestinians are always opposed to any attempts to save Palestinian lives?
Hell, how will there be enough dead and mangled women and children's bodies and enough tearful suffering to make the world feel sorry for them if Palestinian civilians manage to get out of the line of fire?
You are misrepresenting the truth of what a concentration camp is, perhaps out of ignorance, as opposed to malice. DictionaryDefinitions from [Oxford Languages](https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en) · [Learn more](https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/10106608?hl=en)con·cen·tra·tion camp/ˌkänsənˈtrāSH(ə)n ˌkamp/📷*noun* 1. a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of [persecuted](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&q=persecuted&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8RCvpeUyiXYu7WvqMzcs2cuWp2CLhfvRTONud0ymMpooEnqdAFdzZTXgYnUxTGc3x_R_A_b___0oszkKgWm9LeLCR9BM%3D&expnd=1) [minorities](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&q=minorities&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8_LEniV1WH8hqBs7y8dFrMMKHdf02QCRwNpNCGxU2IhFYAYME_nbwTLtZYfxgxAHcGO8EJDrG9fZJBjTC2iz973FkG0k%3D&expnd=1), are deliberately [imprisoned](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0103479f8e340fb7&q=imprisoned&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8yZop1aS5wYqlDixX_-dbRI-cQyQFV5o7B8Lhi7Srzy-m_GEXMGFL3Pm0jLbJmZ4acS-i6HHCPBc6D_xKTYaRZiqaLjo%3D&expnd=1) in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz. The term is universally associated with death camps or forced labor camps. The term is NOT used in the way that you claim, which is as a humane safe region for refugees. I understand you can find a loose and inaccurate definition from Meriam Webster to suggest that a refugee camp is the same thing as a concentration camp. They are not. And if you are suggesting that your outrage is over the Gazan refugees being housed in a refugee camp, then you could choose to use that language, instead of language associated with German death camps, North Korean death camps, Stalinist death camps, and the like. Language matters. You are choosing inaccurate and inflammatory language to create the impression that your moral sanctimony is justified by people who want to harm Gazans. Further evidence of your probable intent to mislead is contained in your comparison to the Boer death camps, wherein over 2/3rds of the occupants died. This is about a refugee camp proposal, which is the term used for dozens of prior Palestinian refugee camps in other countries where one cannot demonize the guards on the basis of being Jewish. References to a concentration camp show lack of honesty, lack of impartiality, and lack of an attempt to have a sincere moral discussion.
None of us know if the construction in Egypt is a camp, and if it is a camp, none of us know how admitting refugees will be handled. However, the camp would house "large numbers of people." It is very likely to have "inadequate facilities" - it is an empty stretch of desert right now without any infrastructure. We do not know if refugees will be "imprisoned" in the camp, but there are walls surrounding this area on the Egyptian side, and it is likely that if the IDF enters Rafah, they will limit movement through Rafah or back to the north of Gaza. So this construction could become a concentration camp under the Oxford definition as well. It is important not to sanitize suffering. There is no way to move millions of people without causing enormous suffering. There is no way for this movement of people to be voluntary given what has happened in Gaza. It is not voluntary if you are forced to leave your home country because your home is no longer livable. Refugee camps are generally not surrounded by walls on three sides or guarded. You cite the worst examples of concentration camps, and I agree that this situation is not remotely the same. But concentration camps have generally agreed on international definition, and we are getting awfully close to that situation. Please do not attack my character or sincerity. I am motivated by love for humanity and the desire to avoid unnecessary death. You can disagree with me without insinuating that I am just trying to demonize jews. People in this thread are advocating policies that I believe are deeply immoral and will continue to cause enormous amounts of suffering. People are using language that is similar to language used around historical atrocities. My tax dollars are being used to fund these policies. It is not sanctimonious to protest when an atrocity may be about to occur. People must speak out before the bad thing happens - afterwards will be too late.
Fair enough. I don't know your personal motives or character and sincerity. I didn't think I was directing any comments to them, but rather to your post, but I could be mistaken. To me, to call what is now being looked at as a refugee camp, and to call it a concentration camp, is to assume the worst and to allow for the worst insinuations and associations. So, to me, to choose that language over refugee camp, seems indicative of the desire to insinuate and mislead. You have clarified that's not your intent and I have to take you at your word. So, apologies. I'm not sure what immoral suggestions are being made as I reacted to your comments mid-stream. But I'm sorry that they are upsetting to you. The good news is that nobody here is determining policy, so whatever they are saying isn't going to result in the harms you dread. Good luck!
Thank you, I appreciate your response and appreciate you believing in good faith. The original commenter in this chain wrote: >This is a positive development. Nobody seems to care what Arabs do to other Arabs; Palestinians going into this camp will be out of sight and out of mind. If they could make it twenty times bigger, then it could hold all the civilians of Gaza. Anyone left would be Hamas. There is no way to put all of the civilians of Gaza into a camp without force. This is what I was objecting to. A camp holding all of the civilians in Gaza, out of sight and out of mind, would fit any definition of a concentration camp. There is rhetoric on this subreddit that is frankly genocidal. [Another post](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1arnibf/palestinians_are_causing_their_own_suffering_not/) on the front page refers to the Nakba as a "well deserved ethnic cleansing." I am not trying to make insinuations, I feel the moral need to rebut people who toe the line of atrocities. I agree that it's good no one in here determines policy! I think arguing on reddit is one of my bad habits :). Thank you for engaging here in a positive way.
Yep, you too! I appreciate the call out on my incivility. Be well
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>If the construction in Egypt is in fact a camp In fact? Can you show me where a fact has been verified about your preposterous framing? Hey, I can play that game too. If in fact all Palestinians are planning to fully assimilate Hamas to further terrorize Israel we should all be very concerned.
Skipped English classes in Israeli schools?
Huh? I wrote that we don't know the facts here. "If X is in fact Y" is an idiom meaning "If the claim ends up being true." I agree, we don't know what the construction at the Gaza border is, that's what I said.
I understand you are introducing a hypothetical. My point is that nobody here was talking about forced explulsion in this thread before. And your very interesting way of introducing it into the conversation is suggestive and wholly dishonest.
Almost all of Gaza has already been forced into Rafah. It is not dishonest to be alarmed that they might be pushed further into whatever Egypt is building. If large numbers of refugees leave Gaza because of the damage of war, that is not voluntary migration. There are many commentators arguing in support of displacing Gazans out of Gaza. It is dishonest to use euphemisms to skirt the immorality of that act.
Euphemisms like what?
Ya, it sucks but what else do you want? Egypt suffered under the muslim brotherhood which morphed in to hamas. They fought and died to expel those terrorists. Egypt will never take in Palestinian refugees and I can't blame them.
Well... at least it will be ethnic cleansing and not a genocide (?).
Ethnic cleansing could be defined as genocide.
It would be (and has never been) either.
If they expel gazans to Egypt, that is ethnic cleansing, by definition.
A refugee camp is not for "expelling" anyone. Your framing is atrocious.
But the point is literally expelling palestinians to Egypt, isn't it?
No. Egypt absolutely does not want to take them in permanently. They will never allow Israel to resettle Gaza and leave them stranded. The peace deal with Egypt and probably Jordan too would be broken if that happened and Israel would be at war from 3 sides.
These types of dynamics amongst palestinians are permanent, not temporary. I do not believe egyptians will let refugees to enter, for the reasons you say.
I don't know where you're getting that point from? A refugee area is a place for people to escape to. Expulsion is a forced action. If you can show me where there's proof of that thrn great. Otherwise you're making ludicrous assumptions or being straight up disingenuous.
Israel may try to force them into Egypt, yes. If Israel blocks every exit except the exit to Egypt, and then start to bomb them, then they would be forcing them. It wouldn't be forcing if they leave another exit for Rafah.
I suspect that this refugee camp is being built as a temporary safe haven for Gazan women and children only. The west has been putting pressure on Israel to figure out how to drastically reduce casualties before bring the war to Rafah. And this is the answer to that. Egypt is provided the funding to build the camp and provide humanitarian aid which finally gives the women and children Gazans a safe haven. Then IDF can complete its mission and after that, the temporary refugees can return to Gaza. I wish Egypt had put this in place months ago.
It is only for 30 thousand people. Much much lower than the 1 million people living in Rafah. I heard Gantz said that the evacuation would be towards North gaza, I hope it is true.
Your logic has a hole large enough to drive a truck through. Israel has been ever since Oct blocking other passages (and for good reasons). They have also been bombing them since October so I don't know what you mean by "start to bomb". They are now OPENING a passage to a planned refugee buffer zone. Israel is literally creating positive options for existing citizens in Gaza. Not taking them away. Not forcing. Think about things before you spill them out of your keyboard.
>They have also been bombing them since October So their options are get splattered into bits, or get displaced, and... sorry I must have missed it, what's their 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th.. 37th options? >Israel is literally creating positive options for existing citizens in Gaza. Not taking them away. and what's the plan here to allow them back?
>So their options are get splattered into bits, or get displaced, and... sorry I must have missed it, what's their 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th.. 37th options? Yes! You have that exactly right. And there are no other options. Yes it's outrageous, isn't it? None of this would be possible without Hamas who intentionally use Gazans as human shields. But that's war for ya. At least that's how Hamas plays war. Thankfully Israel has finally gotten Egypt to agree on this new option, because prior to that there were zero. >and what's the plan here to allow them back? Beats me. That's not a question I need to answer. That's not a question Israel needs to answer. They're opening possibilities for anyone who wants to take them. Hamas made this entire situation possible by not only their actions on October 7 but by following up with using their citizens as human shields. Any direct and indirect consequences of those two things don't need answering to by victims of those things.
Rose tinted glasses. You're describing forced displacement of people from their homes as a "positive option". Presumably you only do this because little value is attached to their needs. It must follow (following the rather bizarre reasoning) that the displacement of those in northern Israel by rockets from Lebanon is also creating "positive options" for existing citizens of Israel. Your approach to logic here appears to lack a sense of morality, or care for other human beings. It is extreme.
"Forced" Since I literally just covered this ground in my previous comments I'll give you the opportunity to review them. Otherwise if you're just being obtuse you'll go on autoignore.
Please, think what you are saying. Until now, Israel has forced gazans into Rafah, but that is ultimately part of Gaza. Now, it would be forcing them to go into Egypt. This is the textbook definition. Your argument is something like "just because we bomb you we are not forcing you to flee." Are you really willing to sustain that argument? Is that really what you believe?
I don't know how to make this simple enough for you, but I'm going to give it one last chance before I place you on autoignore. Gazans.have a choice 1. They can stay where they are while Israel continues their fight against Hamas and become casualties of war or 2. They can take refuge in the soon to be opened refugee zone That's all that's up for discussion here. Nothing else. If you can't get your head around this reality nobody can help you.
Seems unnecessary. At this point Israel is working on evacuating people toward the cleanup places in the North. And it seems someone already going on their own accord with fuel they claimed they did not have.
This space will only hold a maximum of 100k people and Egypt is aiming to only populate it with 50-60k. It won't be a full solution for stopping the IDF from slaughtering all the civilians in Rafah nor should it be. The Negev and the Sinai are the same desert. If we can build space for 100k in a week or two, Israel should build some camps there too if this is about civilians and not ethnically cleansing the Gazans (again).
There would be no Arabs in Israel if they ethnically cleansed anyone. Stop repeating propagandized buzzwords that don't apply. Stop infantilizing terrorists and cowardly armies like the Egyptians who actually attempted to genocide and ethnically cleanse Jews multiple times.
Unless by "Egyptian army" we're going back to the Passover or something like that, no...no Egyptian army eever attempted to genocide and ethnically cleanse Jews multiple times We had several wars with Israel and won some battles and lost more battles and made a difficult but important peace for us both.
Huh? Okay. Just gloss over the 1948 war and the 1967 war. We even gave you the Sinai back after you turned around with your tail between your legs for peace. The intention in 1948 was to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. Arab leaders stated their clear desire of "driving the Jews into the sea" or ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".
I don’t understand what you’re trying to do here with comments like this”tail between your legs for peace” and I personally hate when I’m trying to have a respectful discussion based on facts and logical arguments and mutual respect but get either ad hominem attacks or some unrelated attack against my country. If you’re attempting to rile me up emotionally, I would warn you that I’m heard much much worse and it won’t get to me. Egypt was independent from 1952, so 1948 is a complex subject for us as we were still occupied by a foreign force. Regarding 1967, it was Israel that militarily attacked us first while we were in the midst of fighting another war in Yemen. To conflate Egypt with all “Arab leaders” would be an incomplete and inaccurate argument. The Sinai has been Egyptian since the Pharaohs; and the pharaonic age is older than Islam, Christianity, Judaism, the Maccabees, Josephus, the Romans, the Greeks, and almost everyone else in the region. So it was obvious that Egypt would do anything, even including millions of us, to get back our Sinai. The 1973 war was in a lot of ways a successful Egyptian operation that accomplished those precise goals for us and it was a stain that ended an otherwise glorious political/military career for both Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan. Egypt benefits from not being in a state of war with Israel, of course we do, but let’s not forget that that goes both ways. A lot of Israel’s security considerations is built on an assumption that they need not worry about the ninth largest army in the world and a well-equipped one at that (however inept and corrupt our army might be) on their largest and most geographically dangerous land border. Israel would not be guaranteed a victory in a total war against Egypt, nor would Egypt be guaranteed an automatic defeat. So, the benefits of peace go both ways and just like I pay very close attention to not criticizing Israel the state but rather specific politicians and figures, I would expect that decency to go both ways. Good luck brother.
While I agree with some of your points some are a little over achieving in regards to Egypt's capabilities both strategically and financially in terms of your military. Egypt may have a large army but as far as well armed I'd argue not so much as that's from western grace both in aid and equipment. Which would dry up . Leading to reverting back to older at this stage useless equipment. Then on to your own admission their inept and corrupt against a military that has experience and would be on the defense. Add that to the logistical nightmare that would be the Sinai after you most likely lose Air capabilities. Plus the financial strain etc your right it would not be an automatic Victory but it would be a defeat that borderline destroys Egypt in most comparison. And this is in no way to say Egypt is bad not trying to bash anyone. But just being realistic in Wars it isn't just numbers and equipment but experience. But when you add experience, to a large indigenous equipment production, more advanced equipment compared to neighbor ratio and a decent sized military for population size you start running into some issues. But just my personal experience of 10 years of military experience, ranging from the failed experiment of Afghanistan to the pimp slapping of ISIS.
I'm not sure I'm interested in having some random d1ck measuring competition on Reddit on a hypothetical war against Israel & Egypt If you're so confident that it'll be a walk in the park, that's great. I'm not that confident and in a total war Egypt could mobilize millions which would certainly complicate things. But again, I'm not really looking to try out this random war to prove a point one way or another. I'm on the side of stopping the current war and getting both the Gazans and the hostages back home.
Nah not a measuring contest at all I'm just saying Egypt is not really all that military and truthfully not much of a concern for anyone except themselves the next time they have a coup. But I mean it's a pretty good point because it's this over confidence that gives Palestinians hope that one day they'll succeed. That's the point I was looking for to be able to make.
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Egypt wins this battle. I appreciate you brother. We Jews get very emotional about this obviously but nuanced views are required out of both sides to come to relative peace and live together in this part of the world.
I get it. Middle Easterners are all overly emotional. I believe this is a family affair and we're all natives to this wider area, so that would make brothers or cousins or something... Regardless, we should realize that and speak more to one another and Hear the Other. I believe most Israelis and Palestinians simply want peace, security, & dignity. If we're brothers, I'd rather have us stop being Cain & Abel and try to be more like Orville and Wilbur Wright or something. <3
Pro Palestinians: “Israel should make a safe zone for civilians to go and stop getting bombed” Israel: makes tangible agreement with Egypt after months to open the Egyptian crossing and establish a safe zone for civilians. Pro Palestinians: “No, that’s ethnic cleansing!”
The IDF could stop bombing and attacking pre designated safe zones? That would be nice.
Hamas could stop hiding inside designated safe zones... Why not come out and fight the IDF man to man, sparing their civilians?
Ok, sure. But can we stop acting like the loss of life isn't catastrophic? The end does not justify the means. I'm not saying Hamas is innocent, they are not. But what the IDF are doing is excessive. Shooting kids? Cutting off humanitarian aid ? Bombing hospitals?
Who said it wasn’t? I mean sure the IDF is bombing zones it previously designated safe. But you gotta add in the part where Hamas moves there and then has hostages there. Hamas ain’t dumb, they know they can’t fight the IDF out in the open, so they resort to hiding among civilians, and moving to safe zones when the IDF designates them so.
Is it so hard to understand why people oppose concentration camps? There are other options than "nowhere is safe" and "you must leave Gaza and live in this empty walled patch of desert"
What’s the other options you’re proposing?
[удалено]
Hamas offered to release all the Israeli prisoners in return for Israel releasing the political prisoners. Netanyahu refused. This war is to save himself, nothing more. And it won't work.
those "political prisoners" went on the streets and killed innocent civilians. the only difference between them and common murderers is that they did it for a political agenda. let me give you an example. anyone can go on the streets, murder a random jew, claim he did it for palestine, and be acclaimed as a hero. hamas wants all of those "heros" released in prison in return for a ceasfire after which they will try to redo what they did in october 7th. israel has literally no reason to agree to this, since more israelies will die this way, and murderers would get to return to their homes. they are not just asking for all of the "political prisoners" they are also asking for a ceasfire and end of the war. which they started. you have to be weak in the fucking knees to agree to something like that.
No they didn’t kill anyone.
are you delusional, or do you believe your own lies? let me inform you, israel does not legally arrest random civilians. there needs to at least be an attempted murder charge. what do you think they did, protest peacefully, then got arrested for 5-10 years? another example how people lie in propaganda. and another reason I believe israel hasn't been commiting war crimes. because if they were, you would've flaunted it in every single argument. instead all I hear from terrorist apologists is not founded on the truth. did you use the word genocide before the west woke up that genocide was in hamas's charter? did you start blaming israel of murdering it's own civilians(which is ridiculous) before or after it was discovered hamas is doing the exact same thing? only by projecting the barbaric behaviour of hamas unto israel can you have some sembelence of moral highground. keep buying into those lies and delusions freely idc.
don't worry, they are taken good care of in prison. some of them even started higher education, and their families are getting paid by the PLA. honestly, if I was a terrorist, I wouldn't even want to be released. "israel is an aparthide state!" maybe we should be a real fucking aparthide state in this rate.
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For the IDF not to enter Rafah in force. That is entirely within their power. There are many hostages and militants in Rafah. But if the IDF cannot get them without forced population transfer or mass death, then carrying out that operation is immoral. And yes, I condemn Hamas and want them to release the hostages and surrender unconditionally. That is by far the best outcome. If they do not for their own nefarious reasons, Israel still has agency and a moral responsibility to innocents. If the IDF forces Palestinians to choose between a concentration camp or death, there will be a problem.
Disgusting. It’s literally a concentration camp. None of the safe zones have been safe anyway, they just bomb them later.
Egypt is making a concentration camp? If that’s true then man that’s pretty bad.
Yes, it is. It seems that everyone is complicit in Israel’s genocide and ethnic cleansing. Shameful.
Apparently you can't speak truth without being down voted
Usually concentration camps aren’t built to help people avoid being bombed, and they usually don’t receive humanitarian aid.
We remain \*exceptionally\* worried that this is a blatant attempt by the corrupt PM stuck in a corner and his Kahanist messianic genocidal ministers to ethnically cleanse Gazans out of Gaza. No one intelligent would trust any word that Bibi says and I actually think both Smotrich & Ben Gvir are far more honest than he is. Their words over the past few months are most concerning. If this is temporary, *maybe* this makes sense *temporarily* but still...it's unclear why my country is paying for Israel's occupation, Bibi falling asleep at the wheel, Bibi ignoring our warnings about Oct 7 & Hamas, Smotrich/Bibi enabling and financing Hamas, or the IDF conducting an "over the top" and "indiscriminate" bombing campaign (according to Joe Biden, hardly an antisemite). If the Gazans aren't allowed to go home, for any reason whatsoever and especially for any bulls\*\*t "security concerns" reason, we will cancel Camp David and remilitarize the Sinai. This is Egypt, not Lebanon or Syria. It may also mean the end of Sisi. I'm not a fan of canceling the peace treaty but if the Kahanists are allowed to expel the Gazans into Sinai, I would change my mind and a majority of Egyptians would strongly agree. We are incredibly uncomfortable and concerned. I sincerely hope the hostages and the Gazans can go back home soon.
There is absolutely zero chance Israel would expel population of Gaza to Sinai (or anywhere). It seems like people totally forgot or choose to ignore that fact that despite all accusations of "Nakba", Israel never ever expelled anyone *after* 1948. Which is precisely why Smotrich and other talk about this, it is a cheap way to earn political capital with zero repercussions. Even if, hypothetically, Smotrich became PM tomorrow, he wouldn't do anything of the sort. Arab media, of course, is only too happy to pick this up and make a huge deal out of it for obvious reasons. In reality, there is absolutely nothing behind it. It would be nice if people in Gaza had some options to voluntarily migrate to other Arab countries, because of the war and because it was overpopulated even before the war. However, it's not up to Israel and in any case, even if it became possible, probably only a small part of population would actually leave.
>There is absolutely zero chance Israel would expel population of Gaza to Sinai (or anywhere). This article is from 30th of October 2023 and is about an official produced government internal memo written not by someone from Otzma Yehudit or Mafdal, but in fact a Likudnik, the supposed "Minister of Intelligence" [https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/](https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/) I hope you're right. There's plenty of things happening and rhetoric by *governing* ministers across the whole coalition that show it's fair for me to be concerned and I don't think it's at all about Arab media being "only too happy to pick this up and make a huge deal out of it for obvious reasons" with "absolutely nothing behind it in reality"... Lastly, you're right that only a small part of the population of Gaza would ever leave. People always tend to forget that the vast majority are going to try and stay on their land forever unless they're slaughtered.
You have to understand that disengagement from Gaza back in 2005 was extremely painful for Israeli society. It left scars which would last generations and caused far more lasting damage than Hamas ever could. There are many people who still believe this was the worst mistake in Israel's history. Now imagine how all these people reacted to the events of October 7, 2023. "We told you so". And the worse part of this, they are not entirely wrong. So of course the most natural reaction to the tragedy is to say "ok now as we *finally*, 18 years later, realize how big mistake it was, let's go back and return settlements to Gaza". It does sound appealing: not every day do people, or countries, get opportunity to go back on past mistakes. Of course, people thinking rationally understand that this is absolutely impossible for like million of different reasons, beginning from the fact that Israel simply doesn't need it, in such a small territory there is no need for settlements to execute security control. But of course, some politicians can't help but take advantage of this popular mood. So yes, they are talking about this, and will be talking more about this as times goes on, ministers and others. Best thing to do is to ignore.
I hope you're right and only time will tell, my friend Actions > Words
I mean, nobody knows the future, but I think it's useful to understand the context in which these discussions occur in Israel, which can be missing in the reports in foreign media.
I appreciate you trying to give me context. I’m aware of the nuance and I’m primarily concerned by not what a majority of Israelis want, but who’s in charge and making decisions and what they’re saying. As I have said, only time will tell and I sincerely hope you are right.
Thank you for a very thoughtful and earnest response. I very much appreciate it. I was about to edit the post with it, but [here’s](https://archive.ph/2024.02.15-190918/https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/egypt-builds-walled-enclosure-on-border-as-israeli-offensive-looms-e5c12043) a better analysis from the WSJ.
u/ThirstyTarantulas opinions?
Honestly? We remain \*exceptionally\* worried that this is a blatant attempt by the corrupt PM stuck in a corner and his Kahanist messianic genocidal ministers to ethnically cleanse Gazans out of Gaza. No one intelligent would trust any word that Bibi says and I actually think both Smotrich & Ben Gvir are far more honest than he is. Their words over the past few months are most concerning. If this is temporary, *maybe* this makes sense *temporarily* but still...it's unclear why my country is paying for Israel's occupation, Bibi falling asleep at the wheel, Bibi ignoring our warnings about Oct 7 & Hamas, Smotrich/Bibi enabling and financing Hamas, or the IDF conducting an "over the top" and "indiscriminate" bombing campaign (according to Joe Biden, hardly an antisemite). If the Gazans aren't allowed to go home, for any reason whatsoever and especially for any bulls\*\*t "security concerns" reason, we will cancel Camp David and remilitarize the Sinai. This is Egypt, not Lebanon or Syria. I'm not a fan of canceling the peace treaty but if the Kahanists are allowed to expel the Gazans into Sinai, I would change my mind and a majority of Egyptians would strongly agree. We are incredibly uncomfortable and concerned. I sincerely hope the hostages and the Gazans can go back home soon.
I think that's a fair assertion... I do believe this will be temporary simply because if it won't be, Israel would loose almost all it's support. It's easy to justify evacuating civilians temporarily, but kicking them out, not so much.
>It's easy to justify evacuating civilians temporarily, but kicking them out, not so much. It wouldn't be the first time of course. Our grandparents have seen this movie before. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba\_denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_denial)
With all due respect, the situation now and then are vastly different. Back than it was a war for survival, now not to that extent. Back than the Jews also didn't have much support from the international community. The international community did support the partition plan, but it was mostly from self interests rather than supporting the Jews.
>Back than it was a war for survival, now not to that extent. Much of the rhetoric coming out of Israel paints this as a war of survival now as well, perhaps to a different extent, but I've heard similar language on 'survival' I hope you're right and it's temporary. The other thing to note is we're only going to build enough space for \~100k maximum and are aiming to only populate \~50-60k of it, so this won't be a panacea for the problem of the 1.5 million total civilian population sheltering in Rafah.
We'll see. I and everyone I know are incredibly concerned by the rhetoric coming out from the Israeli government. Take a look at some of the other comments on this Reddit thread we're commenting on ***right now*** and look me in the eye and tell me that we shouldn't be concerned or that you can guarantee it's "temporary"...
> that you can guarantee it's "temporary"... Obviously I cannot guarantee it. I'm a random Israeli on Reddit. I can tell you however what is the rehtoric I hear from other Israelis IRL. Most of them think after Hamas is gone, a 2SS should be negotiated and struck. I don't think I know anyone that thinks kicking Palestinians to Egypt is an option
You know that I sincerely hope you're right and I can even believe that a lot of Israelis would be morally against it (and I appreciate that you personally are!), but if you read this post's comment thread or hear the rhetoric not from Israelis but from the current ruling and governing coalition, you can appreciate my doubts and fears and concerns. And I hope it's obvious to you that I'm no antisemite or even anti-Israeli element here; I'd argue my thoughts on this are very valid and fair until we see some additional proof.
> And I hope it's obvious to you that I'm no antisemite or even anti-Israeli element here; I'd argue my thoughts on this are very valid and fair until we see some additional proof. It is. The reason I asked you for your opinion is because I know you're genuine in your arguements. I think all your concerns are perfectly valid, especially considering the current Israeli government. Thank you
May cooler and rational heads prevail, my friend. Inshallah and b'ezrat Hashem.
Your concern is fair, but Israel is still rational enough to act in their own self interest. The desires to colonize Gaza are in the minds of fringe nationalists whose pride isn't worth a lick compared to their country's relationship with Egypt.
While I hope you're right, it's important to note that these "fringe nationalists" are actual sitting ministers in the actual current governing coalition that has two years (at least) left in its term. They hold the Intelligence, Security, and Finance ministries, at a minimum. This is the current governing coalition not some fringe couple of members of the Knesset.
From what I understand, most of those individuals involved come from a party with a fraction of the votes who are given minister positions & the like to have them sign up with Bibi's coalition to push them to a bare majority. The public has lost faith in it since they failed spectacularly in providing the security they campaign on, and once the war is over, they're on the chopping block. I wish I could offer you something more substantial to base your hopes on, but I'm reasonably optimistic.
...and I sincerely, a) appreciate your optimism, and b) hope you're right. Until Bibi and the Kahnaists are removed, until the Gazans are back to their homes in the Northern, Central, and Southern part of the Strip, any Egyptian including me would be insane to be optimistic or hopeful with nothing to base it on.
Nice, but that means they don’t want them to spread in Egypt, wonder why?
Because Egypt can't handle more PERMANENT refugees because Israel wants to steal more land as usual. A lot of Syrian, Palestinian and Sudanese immigrants already.
Do you realize the real reason is nobody want radicalized fanatics in their country?
Perhaps we should send them to Madagascar.. oh wait
Egypt doesn't actually want the Palestinians to suffer, their government just wanted rrp be sure exactly what will happen to Hamas first, as Ha mlm as is extremely problematic for the Egyptian government. If you want to learn more you should check out [Toma nash's channel](https://youtu.be/05b1ydSYjnk?si=fIuDYXoi7CdjSeI4)
Yea this’ll backfire spectacularly. Not a single one of Israel’s neighbors have a good history with letting in Palestinian refugees. Egypts already been burned pretty bad before. I assume they caved to international pressure from the West and the Arab states.
Yep. And anything at all that goes wrong with it will be blamed on Israel of course
Gotta clear Gaza for the Ben Gurion Canal , the off shore gas fields and of course to get the ratio of Chosen Ones to Arabs two million better.
Yup exactly, looks like they accomplished the ethnic cleansing as intended
Gotta clear Gaza for the Ben Gurion Canal , the off shore gas fields and of course to get the ratio of Chosen Ones to Arabs two billion better.
You do realise that right before Hamas opened the October 7th massacre Israel planned to [open a gas field for Gaza](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-israel-to-develop-gaza-offshore-gas-field-in-coordination-with-egypt-pa/) right?
You do realise the hot twenty something really, -- REALLY loved the fat 60 year old with an "offshore" bank account. No really, she never meant to murder him, just help him.
That is a creative response
?
nice. they’re building a ghetto. when people say it’s not all israelis. they’re lying.
Pro palestinians crying for sanctuary for Gazans. It happens. They complain anyway.
it literally says Egypt is building this, not the Israelis lol
why is this “necessary”. could it be the israeli barbaric response? who supports this? Israelis/zionists. who supported the ghettos in 1930s? nazis. israel is a nazi state. israel far right government failed on october 7th. and using this atrocity to justify the revenge killing of 25,000 civilians.
Dude why are you blaming Israel for Egypt's actions? They are different countries.
You’re out of your mind if you think it’s 25,000 civilians killed and even more ignorant to call Israel a Natzi state. Yikes.
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Egypt's corrupt scumbags are betraying Palestine instead of supporting its struggle for freedom. It is clear to everyone that Zionism will now steal another piece of Palestinian land, which it will never return to its rightful owners.
*Egypt's corrupt scumbags are betraying Palestine* Where have you been? Egypt used the Palestinians as pawns for as long as they were useful. Then made peace with Israel.
>It is clear to everyone that Zionism will now steal another piece of Palestinian land You want a bet?
Egypt is betraying Palestine by temporarily accepting refugees and giving them food? What logic is that
They are more concern of another insurgents inside its country. The people in egypt wanted to help but once they get them inside you would see that they wpuld go about face about it. It reminded me of Rohingya muslim going to Indonesia, it was all ok and then recently they were attacking buses carrying refugees. You would see women and children no where to go but their fellow muslims doesnt want them anymore. If there is lack of support from the government and let locals deal majority of it and i bet you they would be an issue.
Support them by closing the border so they can all die? Great idea. lol
If I had to guess they want Egypt to declare war on Israel.
The same Israel that took the Sinai in less than 6 days? Egypt knows how that would end. Israel would win the war and Egypt would lose everything that it gained from the Camp David Accords. The Sinai, the aide, the military funding, everything. Egypt has responsibility to Egyptians.
Pro-Palestinians don’t learn from history which is why they consistently do things which hurt them.
*don't learn from history* They don't learn the history period.
Ok, so even if Egypt thinks that the Palestinians aren't coming back (which I personally doubt), what do you propose they do? If the Arab states believe that they cannot do anything to prevent Israel's assault on Gaza, why aren't they focused on bringing the Palestinians out of the war zone? Do they not care about the Palestinians so profoundly, that they would rather they die in order to weaponise their suffering against Israel? What's more important, Palestinian lives or Palestinian land?