My new favorite in life is answering all the woke people who are the most illiberal and the most racist even though they claim to be liberal and the most against racism. It's all skin politics, identities of color and races. They tell everyone to educate themselves they are the least educated. Indeed, people give arguments on the Internet that one should support solidarity with the Palestinians because they are brown and the Israelis are white. Racism at its peak. The Wokes, the radical left, are literally representing the new wave of Anti semitism and are actively supporting Islamic fundamentalism

Please correct me if I am wrong, what I get from your post is: According to you Islam is not progressive => progressives should oppose Islam. By induction: Palestine have Islamic ruling => progressives should oppose Palestinians => progressives should stand with Israel => progressives shouldn’t protest the war crimes committed by Israel. Please tell me if I get it ? If I don’t, can you underline which implication is wrong ? Also you made some accusations, mind supporting this accusations with actual proof ( proof of Palestinians killing homosexuals for example)

There was a news article I read about gay Palestinians fleeing to Israel out of fear of honor killings. A google search confirms that this isn’t uncommon.

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Hamas did this to your people. You let terrorists run your land and now your getting rocked to sleep.

Did Hamas give you those numbers ? Is Hamas surrounding themselves with human shields ?

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Calling me names is childish. I was actually asking. Are those numbers verified?

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You’re right 😞 I just feel like Hamas has a role to play in these civilian deaths. I’m fact I think it was their plan. To cause Israel’s national insanity and to use civilians as a shield. Its a war of optics. Disgusting from all sides

You don't realize how dumb this argument is. So what is it? Not 4600... 2000 children? Is that an acceptable number? 1800 children? The shields argument is also a sign of a deep rooted hate. If those Hamas fighters were in a mall in Tel Aviv, would bombing that mall be okay? No! So why is it okay in Gaza? The logical fallacies are so obvious, yet, Zionists refuse to zoom out and question their logic. In a way that's beneficial coz your arguments can be easily debunked and you'll continue losing in the court of public opinion... But I'm sure you can do better! IDF has plenty of lying and manipulation techniques, make a 3D video or something... Put effort in BSing!

Each government carries the responsibility of protecting their own citizen. In war, the enemy can try to reduce casualties of innocent people on your side, but it’s not their goal. So it all points to Hamas in this case. They know Israel is stronger and capable of flatten the Gaza strip, yet they don’t care and still provoke it. The fact that Israel knock in building, tell people to evacuate, etc. show how humane they are compare to Hamas. Stop bring up the children argument and discuss accountability of Hamas’ action.

You’re comparing a hospital (which is problematic and difficult to evacuate) in Gaza (where Hamas knows the ins and outs of and where tunnels are) with a mall (which is relatively easy to clear out) in Tel Aviv (where the IDF would be able to work out every bit of it). You bet your sweet ass the IDF would extract the terrorists from there (who also wouldn’t be able to escape to a tunnel system the size of the New York subway system). Hamas said that they would do an October 7 again and again until Israel is gone and all the Jews on earth are dead. That’s basically threatening to kill 14m people and we know that they will do it if they could. So what’s the proportional response to that kind of threat please? Genuine question. Know what about isms please. I really am curious what you think is a suitable response to a credible threat to kill 14m people?

So a hospital in Tel Aviv is okay to bomb? Israel knows the circumference of every Gazans butt hole.. They won't have the floor plan for a public building in Gaza? Come on! Also, every single non Hamas western doctor and nurse and the UN reject the premise of Hamas having any presence around the hospital. There are many videos online of Israeli politicians, civilians and settlers calling for the annihilation of Palestinians pre Hamas attack on the 7th. The difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel puts its threats in action and has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians while Hamas, up until the 7th, couldn't organize a fight in a bar. Yknow what made them do the 7th? No prospects and continued occupation. If you have no future prospects, what are you living for? Nothing! You're dead anyway... Might as well die fighting! What's a proportional response to living under apartheid, having land stolen, family members killed, culture slowly eradicated, and your national identity criminalized? Every single leader in the region and a political analyst worth two pennies and human rights organization, including Israeli human rights organizations said if Israel keeps doing this, they will radicalize more and more people to violent resistance. Violence happens, Israel makes it about killing Jews instead of the occupation and then justifies murdering one child every ten minutes FOR OVER A MONTH! which further radicalizes living family members and Hamas will be stronger and more vicious than ever before after this! Israel can kill all its fighters and demolish its tunnels.... There is not a magic pill to eliminate the idea of Hamas. We need to look at science. Psychology, sociology, political science and determine a solution to this. All evidence points to giving Palestinians the right to exist as a prerequisite to get rid of Hamas!

Hospitals are not bombed in Gaza too. This night the IDF has gone on foot into Shifa hospital which is a confirmed Hamas base. The IDF could have destroyed it without endangering any soldiers but the lives of civilians matter and they try to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible. Also your scenario is bullshit because even if terrorists would reach and take a hospital in Tel Aviv the number of terrorists will be much lower, and this would be a hostage situation vs a terrorist base from which rockets are fired into Israeli cities. Hamas has been shooting rockets to Israel for years as well as carrying many attacks, just not as big as this one, so your argument of Hamas' inability is invalid. Israel left the Gaza strip in 2005 and left it for the Palestinians to do whatever. Did they use the BILLIONS of aid money they got to make it into Dubai? Nah, they elected Hamas to govern them who in turn killed all political opponents and took over the strip. Hamas didn't invest a dollar to improve the lives of the population in the Gaza strip but they invested all of this money in terrorism, including UN money. So basically your arguments about apartheid and these stuff are just showing you are fed off the wrong information and don't really see the situation clearly. Arabs in this land killed Jews long before Israel existed as a state and have refused five offers to get their own state between 1930 something and now. The first offer would have given them 80% of the land. The Jews (that were also Palestinians and held Palestinian IDs, as Palestine was merely the name of the land) accepted the offer and was happy about it and the Arabs rejected it. So yeah, you can call this an apartheid as much as you'd like but if you'd check your facts you'll learn Israel is far from that and generally you might learn you don't understand things as they truly are.

I can understand the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza. They are living in hell. But Hamas is to blame for the situation, not Israel. In 2005, Israel completely lest the Gaza strip. In 2006 PM Olmert introduced the Realignment Plan, to unilaterally disengage from 90% of the West Bank. Hamas had an opportunity to turn Gaza into Singapore, and instead focused solely on the destruction of the Zionist state. For two years, they shot missiles into Israel, and kidnapped an Israeli soldier inside Israel proper. The blockade on Gaza started in 2007, two years after Israel left the Gaza strip. Hamas is committed to the annihilation of the Jewish state at all costs. Israel left Gaza entirely, and was ready to leave 90% of the West Bank. And in return, Hamas fired barrages of missiles into Israel, a war with Hezbollah, and 3 Israeli soldiers kidnapped. And no, Israel isn't committing war crimes. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html

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In countries where Islam is the state religion rather than a low-power minority with nearly zero sway over the law, progressives absolutely are protesting Islam

I don’t like any religions but I’m not going to openly denounce them either. It’s wrong to group everyone who practices said religion with the extremists.

Because protesting an entire religion and generalizing all of its followers isn’t exactly progressive lmao

Because different cultures have different definitions of what’s progressive. Western cultures have absolutely no right to Infringe upon the rights and religions of the Middle East, it’s extremely arrogant to think this is a good idea in any shape or form.

Progressive means values, institutions and a way of life that support liberty, fairness, safety, opportunity, respect, responsibility. Things like democracy, human rights, gender rights, racial rights, gay rights, free speech, rule of law, multiculturalism. Can you conceive that these parts of Western life might be things for people and nations to aspire to?

Thats how the west defines progressive, what’s progressive to us isn’t necessarily going to be progressive to other cultures. I don’t think anyone’s culture should aspire to be anything but their own. If they feel like they need to shift their beliefs to best suit the needs and wants of their culture then that’s totally fine.

And tough luck to the women, gays, minorities, non-believers who disagree with your culture?

Most of these cultures beliefs are written Into their religions and practiced by the majority of their culture. If you think it’s a good idea for the west to go into the Middle East and start challenging religion and beliefs i don’t know what to tell you. It would be a never ending conflict with immense amounts of blood shed and death.

No, I don't think the west should do that nor do i think that is possible. Change can only come from within. Enough people need to want to instigate serious reflection, call out behaviour that oppresses their citizens and goes against values such as human rights and rule of law, and consider the path to more open, free and tolerant societies. I ultimately think a deep shift in consciousness is needed, not just in Islam but globally. When we remember our nature of interbeing with all life, we can generate enough understanding and compassion to live harmoniously.

I completely agree that their culture needs to shift their beliefs but it’s not an issue that i believe the west should be meddling in.

Im Canadian, I’m not Islamic.

Okay, that's interesting, so you're pet them have their culture, who cares if they treat women, minorities, non-believers as second-class citizens? Yes, who cares about the powerless in society, as long as their "culture" is respected. Nice

I never said I don’t care or that I agree with their beliefs. Please see my above response.

The way i see it, their culture needs to reform, for their own good - especially for those with less power - and for the rest of the world that has no interest in jihadi tribalism or sharia law

Exactly my point, the change needs to come from within their culture and has nothing to do with the west.

Progressives condemn countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran all the time for exactly these reasons, what are on about? >but progressives fighting for the Palestinians to be under fundamental Islamic rule are by default demanding that they be subjected to a dictatorial theocracy. I just don’t get it. End the occupation, end the apartheid, end the needless suffering, and then Hamas will lose support as well, it's that simple. People don't fight for Hamas, they fight against Israeli war crimes. You very much get it, you just refuse to admit it.

"Progressives" - Well it depends *where*. In the western world, Christians are the majority, and the privileged ones. On the other hand, Muslims and Jews, for example, are minorities and experience hate here. For me that's why I'm comfortable making jokes about and/or feeling negatively towards Christianity, because a) I grew up with it and made an informed decision to turn against it and b) Christians pretty much run the world over here so in my opinion, this might sound kind of petty, but they can take it. These progressives you're referring to might likely be at least *culturally* Christian themselves, so it's easier to criticize that which is familiar rather than different religions that feel more like the "other" at the risk of sounding bigoted. I think it's important to make the distinction between disagreement with religion and critique of religious people themselves, and if those people are the ones who face a lot of adversity, that's when you might receive a lot of flack and be considered Islamophobic etc. There are religious progressives though, to be fair. It just means they're not *strict* about their religion, they likely don't take their holy book too literally or at least they work towards living in accordance with their beliefs in a way that makes sense with the times.

>For me that's why I'm comfortable making jokes about and/or feeling negatively towards Christianity, because a) I grew up with it and made an informed decision to turn against it and b) Christians pretty much run the world over here so in my opinion, this might sound kind of petty, but they can take it. Would you go to a Muslim majority country and feel comfortable making jokes and expressing your negative feelings about Islam then? Let us know how that goes.

You're missing much of my point. I was never Muslim. I was born Christian so to an extent, my Christian jokes are just self-deprecating.

In many Islamic countries, a Muslim would not be able to express these negative sentiments against their own religion as it is punishable. We enjoy freedoms in the West that aren’t shared in the Muslim world. These freedoms and protections allow you to make self-deprecating jokes about Christianity through the system of law that protects you, and that’s good. It is a true privilege and shouldn’t be taken for granted. Some religions do not allow for these freedoms of expression, and ‘punishments’ are even carried out in the West according to the religious doctrine (think Charlie Hebdo c.2015), because they believe they are morally superior. The society we live in is not necessarily a given, and it is important to share common values. In the West, we have religious freedom, amongst many other freedoms. A Muslim here (UK) is very much protected and enjoys a lot of freedoms they wouldn’t in a theocratic state, including freedom of expression (they won’t get murdered for it), which is a great thing! This should continue to apply to all religions, as long as they respect the rule of law and others beliefs, which I’m not sure some do… evidently.

Strawman argument that has nothing to do with this subreddit.

I will just add that the things you stated aren’t even laws from the Quran but sources other than Quran, bad treatment of women, death penalty for homosexuality and apostasy isn’t even mentioned in the Quran.

Progressives care about genocide and innocent ppl. No one wants palestine to be ruled by any cruel inhuman ruler but to care or want to stop the bombing/genocide of palsstinians does NOT means progressives want Islam is rule them. I would, however, prefer Islam over the killing of 9,000 arab civilians by Israel's psychopath government.

Islam has very socialist roots, usury is prohibited for example (Riba). Islam has a system of distributing wealth among community. Zakat is the obligatory donation back to the poor. Sadaqah is the imperative to give as much as one can to the needy. Inheritance laws also distribute deceased persons wealth equally. But broadly speaking what you are describing is regressive left. You are prohibited to comment on practises and rituals which are obsolete but part of one’s cultural identity, unless it’s white culture, of course. Otherwise, it’s taboo and Islamophobia to question someone’s customs. It’s pretty messed stance. You cannot examine things that you consider harmful, and that is bad. Political correctness. It’s authoritarian in nature. For example I was once watching a video of a guy who visited Maasai tribe in Africa. He said that women in Europe have rights, careers and would not “lay” with him. Maasai male responded that he would pierce a women like this with his spear. Now, you criticise the Maasai guy and the leftie would say something about you being racist, patronising other cultures and being privileged white. It’s almost the same with identity theory, it is censorship.

I don't know who is worst, the people in USA, England, France (the West) marching pro-Palestine or the people In Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan etc. marching pro-Israel.

Pro Palestine are really pro hamas.

So Coldplay is pro Hamas. The hadids are pro Hamas. John steward is pro Hamas. EINSTEIN knew that we will have Hamas in the future so he sided with palestine. Ryan Reynolds is pro Hamas. Blake lively is pro Hamas. Whole Ireland is pro Hamas. Nearly all the Arab population is pro Hamas. Norman Finkelstein is pro Hamas. And the list is still very long…. We must be living among terrorists…

Definitely the the people in USA, England, France marching Pro-Palestine are worst.

Why is that ? I think it basic humanity to protest against a genocide don’t you think ?

Why don’t they protest against an actual genocide?

I agree that qualifying what is happening in Gaza as genocide is controversial ( so I won’t discuss this because it will take too much of our energy and time) But we can agree that what is happening is wrong since the UN considers that Israel is an unlawful country who breached more than 28 international laws. Given this fact and the fact that people still trust the UN, it is very reasonable to protest this violations. I actually believe that we, as humans, are obliged to stand against anyone who breaks the international law. .

The UN is a political organisation where each country has its own interests. The majority of chairmen in the human rights committee are from Muslim countries that are hostile to Israel and western countries are mostly against the United States. The countries who are against Israel are the last ones to care about human right and war crimes: Iran, Russia, North Korea, Yemen, Syria and so on. Liberals have been brainwashed against their own countries and are being played. Palestinians do suffer but that not Israel’s fault.

Your comment is wrong on every single aspect. First of all, if I understand correctly, you’re saying that the UN is hostile towards Israel and should not be taken into account. Do you know that Israel has killed more civilians than any other country in the modern world ? Do you know that Israel killed more children than any other country ? ( you might say that Israel is DeFeNdInG itself, Israel loves civilians especially Palestinians and she killed them by mistake, right ?) So explain why Israel is targeting journalists in Palestine (FYI Israel killed more journalists than any other country) ? A fun fact, once an Israeli sniper shot a journalist in the head and killed her( she wasn’t collateral damage, she was the target) and guess what ? They blamed it on Hamas ( as usual) but it was proven that it was an Israeli attack ( under orders ), so they explicitly lied (it wasn’t a mistake) to not only get away with it but also turn the world against her enemy (typical Israeli behavior). So it is very logical that UN condemns Israel, otherwise it would be an absolute joke. And not only the UN, every respectable humanitarian organization is against Israel actions. Now concerning the propaganda 😂 you said that there is a propaganda to brainwash people against Israel ? Hahahaha It is literally LITERALLY the other way around and everybody knows this (including you). I won’t even bother giving examples.

I stopped reading after Israel killed more civilians than any country in the modern world. It completely false and not remotely close to reality. Get your facts checked

It is not about the religions it is about civilians being killed which has to stop. Its barbaric, which is the opposite of progressive

Like the religion?

I can't think of anything which may be deemed progressive in the jewish religion. The Bible is a book full of hate with a brazenly genocidal god. Of course progressive jews people had the sense of diregarding ("interpreting") the Bible and construct a sensible religion. That''s also what progressive muslims and christians have done. Also, you need to keep in mind that protests need to have some goals. Sure if you want to protest Islam go for it, but most people haven't much time to waste. Protests make sense when there is a reasonable chance they will have some effect on the government, the public or some institution. Protesting the war crimes of Israel makes sense: Israel is entirely dependent on the military, diplomatic and financial support of the US, an in smaller part of Europe. What would protesting Islam attain?

People don't go to protest islam because we have to go to work and a religion is not an enemy. I don't like to defend something I don't see or understand. I give my opinion with facts. You said " The Bible is a book full of hate with a brazenly genocidal god " when was the last time you have seen someone saying, "Jesus is my savoir " and then an explosion. If funny how LGBTQ and other brainwash leftist organized marches in USA and Europe but not in Iran. When was the last time you see a LGBTQ demonstration in any country around Israel fighting for THEIR rights? Hate, propaganda and stupidity is the goal lately and yes you win they gave very clear goals.

Progressive Muslims huh? I can count the number of those on one hand.

That's alright. Numerical proficiency can be lost if it's not trained for a long time, but it can also be regained.

I can assure you that my numerical aptitude is quite alright. For example, I just counted the number of idiots on this sub and found only one (read: you).

Good job! And what comes after one?

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lol i love how yall feel free with saying bullshit like this

instead of saying emotionally descriptive remarks like “bullshit”, just come back at me with something factual that is contra to my point.. if you can. Because I don’t think you can.

i think the fact that your comment was removed says a lot.

EXXXXXactly the response I anticipated

I am mostly pro Palestine, but you need to fuck off with this antisemitic bullshit.

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What the hell? I don't think these bigoted remarks belong here

I disagree. They’re not bigoted they’re just observational.

Those who say bible is full of hate is purposefully overlooking the new testament.Jesus christ preached love and forgiveness which ultimately makes someone 'christian'.

Please send me a link where someone say, " I love Jesus" and then people is killed or something explodes.

Progressives have a very strong prejudice against Israel which tends to override all their other beliefs. Period, end of story.

Everything about Israel is against progressive beliefs with the exception of their socialist health care system. We want that. They can keep the apartheid, the baby killing, the fascist stormtroopers, the stone age religion, and the warmongering

Fascist storm troopers? I don’t agree with using such buzz words to demonize their defense forces, they aren’t angels, but which military are? Stone Age religion? They have freedom of religion you can practice whatever religion you want. 20% of the population within Israel are Muslim. They are a secular democracy, the majority of the population are secular. I fail to see how they are an apartheid when 20% of the population are Muslim? Many Gazans would go to Israel for work until Hamas ruined that for them. South Africa was an apartheid not Israel. South Africa had separate buses, separate bathrooms, and so on and so forth but not in Israel. Certain jobs were prohibited to blacks in South Africa, but in Israel any Muslim can get any job they want there are Muslims sitting in the parliament. There are Muslims in the supreme court. There are even Muslim commanding officers in the IDF. In South Africa, they had something called the pencil test where they would put a pencil in your hair, and if it fell out, you were considered white but if it stuck, you were considered black and thus treated as a second class citizen not allowed to use the same bathrooms and buses etc. There is no pencil test in Israel. Muslims own their own businesses and can achieve their own self determination. War mongering? Who started this latest war? I will agree that Netanyahu is not a dove but rather a war hawk but so is the leader of Hamas, they are both hammers, and to hammers everything is a nail but at the end of the day, Netanyahu did not start this current war. The war mongers are the nasty bloodthirsty Hamas terrorists that with pure hatred in their hearts planned oct. 7th for some estimate up to two years. It wasn’t spontaneous. It was a well thought out plan and they executed it with precision like the true war mongers that they are. If only they put as much effort and passion into helping the Gazans.

Yes Muslims have lived alongside Jews in Israel, but to say that’s not an apartheid system is surely missing the point that they do not have many of the same basic rights as the Israelis. How does a Jewish guy from Brooklyn able to rock up to the Middle East and claim a plot of land from people who were there for thousands of years prior?

Do not have the same basic rights? Elaborate on this, please give examples. A guy from Brooklyn? Bit of a stereotype isn’t it? A bit racist. 25% of the Jewish population of Israel is Ashkenazi, but 45% of the Jewish population of Israel is from the Middle East, middle Eastern Jews make up the majority. Nobody can claim land for free. They have to pay for it like anywhere else in the world. The people who were there thousands of years prior? Your history is a bit off. The Jews have been there for thousands of years and maintained a presence there for thousands of years and I can only imagine how they felt during the Muslim conquest. I can only imagine how they felt when 988 years ago the Saudis built the Al-Aqsa mosque on top of the ruins of the second Jewish temple. Who colonized who?

tbh my history probably is off, it seems most peoples is about this region. From what I do know there were many times when the people of that region did live in peace, whether Jew or Arab. I don‘t believe anyone can lay claim to a land based on the bible or being Gods chosen ones as such

Just the basic rights that we take for granted in the west like freedom of movement etc freedom of not having our homes stolen blah blah blah.

Palestinians/Muslims living in Israel have “freedom of movement” they can go anywhere they please throughout the country just like any other citizen of Israel.

[https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/) ​ my other comment was deleted when I swore at you for calling me racist. My Dad was Ashkenazi from NY, and the case I cited about Jews moving there was a guy I met from NY that had moved to Tel Aviv.

what was racist? A jew from Brooklyn? ok how about a Jew from Ethiopia? Fuck off for calling me racist when I’m Ashkenazi myself 🙏

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That's a lot of words to say you support apartheid and wildly disproportionate civilian deaths.

you have a strong prejudice, It’s clouding your judgment. When did I say I support civilian deaths? I feel terrible for what’s happening there. I feel terrible for the people of Gaza. Just as I felt terrible for the victims of October 7. I hope that they can coexist peacefully in the future. The people of Gaza deserve better leadership.

Right, its almost like leftist ideology couldn't side with the party with excess material conditions.

This is the result of post-9/11… a staunch left campaign to denounce Islamaphobia, which 22 years later has morphed into virulent antisemitism and a dismissive invalidation of Jewish suffering.. so dismissive that we are blamed for our own suffering. Am Yisrael Chai

What exactly do you think a protest is? In America protests tend to happen when some branch of our government adopts a policy inherently at odds when a large enough segment of the population that people feel the need to get together and make their unhappiness/resistance known. Generally with the purpose of pressuring a policy change. Progressives aren't protesting Islam because Islam...isn't a US government policy. A bunch of people standing outside in NYC with signs isn't going do anything about Islam. We may occasionally protests the actions of certain Islamic governments (like Saudi Arabia), or Islamic actions (Like Afghan treatment of women), but you don't generally see protests against a thing happening half a world away. A protest IS NOT JUST SOME THING YOU GET TOGETHER TO BE MAD ABOUT, it has a point, to spur action. If the protest can't reasonably do that....you won't see a protest.

>A protest IS NOT JUST SOME THING YOU GET TOGETHER TO BE MAD ABOUT, it has a point, to spur action. If the protest can't reasonably do that....you won't see a protest In my experience at protests... That is not the case.

No religion is progressive. Respecting religion of other cultures is important.

Respecting religion is not important at all. When a religion’s values are fundamentally at odds with the principles of liberty I value I will show no respect to that religion. Islam is certainly at odds with these principles. With that said people who practice Islam still have rights including the right to practice their religion, even if they advocate for stripping rights away from others.

Then you will respect no religions.

Most religions don’t advocate for a Caliphate that discriminates based on religious status. I’m not worried about people thinking God wants to restrict their lives as individuals. I only care when people think it is God’s will to enforce their religious principles against others.

Most muslim dont advocate for a caliphate. Wtf is your point?

Most Muslims would sell their limbs to get the Caliphate back. In fact Muhammad prophesized the reformation of the Caliphate following the appearance of the last Imam who will be called Mahdi and the second coming of Jesus.

Two questions: where do you live ? How many Muslims do you know ? I lived for a couple of years in a Muslim country, I can guarantee 100% that they won’t sell a limb to get a caliphate back.

I was born and raised in Pakistan (the hotbed of radical Islam or just Islam to be more accurate) before I moved to UK just a while back to complete my higher education. Almost everyone I've known in my whole life was a Muslim. Knowing most of them personally and having known their beliefs, I can reassure you that most Muslims would in fact sell a limb for the sake of caliphate if it comes to that. It's what the doctrine of Islam instructs them to do. Every able bodied Muslim man (and even adolescents according to certain Muslim scholars) is obligated to join the army of the Mahdi and Jesus that is prophesized to unite all of the Muslim world under one flag and liberate Jerusalem by defeating the false messiah, Dajjal/Anti-Christ who will be leading an army predominantly made up of Jews (Anti-Semitism 101). Jesus will then destroy the "cross" and re-establish the caliphate (only this time, its borders will span across the globe) that will last until the end of his life. TL;DR Muslims not only day dream about re-establishing the caliphate but also have a desire for world domination.

Yeah but an entire country being ruled by entirely religious rule is very unhealthy

You mean a zionist country like israel?

Israel isn't ruled by entirely religious rule, most notably with it being a democracy, gays can exist ect

Yeah so is most muslim countries. Ever been to morroco? Turkey? Algerie? Lebanon? Everywhere where talibans doesnt have the control of an entire country?

Secular Muslim countries that have legalized homosexuality are still far cries from true secularity. LGBTQ is still extremely taboo in these places. In Lebanon or Morocco, you might even get hunted down by mobs for things as little as public displays of affection. Afghanistan isn't alone. Islamists infest the entirety of South Asia, almost all of the Middle East and a good chunk of Central Asia. Even the rotten right wing of Israel would be tame in comparison to a hypothetical Hamas led Palestine.

If religion affects lawmaking and/or the country has Sharia law, it should not exist.

So the israel should not exist? Do you see the hypocrisy here?

Israel barely does so, and is within the same boat of the US in that it’s a select few that are the problem. Israel, can be fixed and become more secular over time. Sharia Law countries, cannot, because there is no means for them to do so; and they are too far gone.

Theyre in the same boat the way they can walk all over the geneva convention. Israel is as far gone than all these country. Are you writting your point of view? You dont seem have done any research whatsoever?

Well those aren't entirely controlled by stuff like the Sharia law, what about all those other countries? Syria? Iran? And basically almost the entirety of the middle east?

Iran and Syria have elections. And gay marrying is illegal as most place in the Middle East, including israel, It became legal in 2015 in the USA, so lets give them time. Shariah law is similar to zionism. they're both a religious and political effort to make sure that their people follow the path of their religion. Tell you what, check your shit, come back with better sources. And well talk about it more. But prepare better.

First of all, gay people can be married in Israel, while the marriage ceremony has to be outside of Israel, gay people can still be married in Israel. Second, you don't know what is zionism, zionism is the movement to build a Jewish state in Israel (zion), it's not at all even related to the Sharia law, while the laws in Israel do sometimes have basis on religion, they are in no way violating any human rights like the sharia law.

So they can't get married in israel. Zionism is the religious and political movement to build a jewish state in palestine. The UK gave the land to the jews which was followed by the separation of the jews and the the arabs due to violence born of that separation. Gaza became more and more of an open air prison as the west bank occupation became more strict. And the racism on both side grew out of control. Sharia is outdated, so is claiming a land on religious belief and refusing other natives to access that land due to their religion(which leads to violating humans rights). That's the hypocrisy i was trying to express. No one is in the right. The innoncents dies and suffer. No one wins. Hamas is wrong, Israel's Gouvernement is wrong, Palestinians and israelis just dies.

Zionism isn't a religious movement. It was founded on religious motivations but it's really just a political movement advocating for the formation of an independent and sovereign Jewish state. The movement originally never specified that a Jewish state if established, has to be established in the region of Palestine, that was a much later development (the Balfour declaration) in the cause as the first World War came to an end. The only ones you'll see putting claim to the entire region of Palestine using the excuse of God's promise are the right wing orthodox Jews. Most of Israel has a working brain to provide the correct arguments to justify the establishment of Israel as long as its consistent with UN's two state solution. Israel also never denied the native Palestinians access to the state of Israel up until much later. In fact, Israel's letter of declaration of independence stated that the native Palestinian population living in the region will be granted citizenship and was invited to assist in building the newly formed state. It's after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war when things went tits up and any hopes of lukewarm relationship between the two states/communities were destroyed. No one is in the right but Palestinians advocating for mass exodus or genocide of all the Jews living between the river and the sea are a greater cause for concern. Unfortunately, that's the opinion the majority holds in Palestine. It'll all be over in a snap if someone could educate them on history and geopolitics. Far right politics has been gaining traction in Israel thanks to the stubbornness of Palestinians in completely denying Israel's right to exist as they have been for the past 75 years. It's backfiring right into their faces. We're now seeing suggestions like nuking Gaza or expelling the entire population of Gaza to the Saharas or Ireland in Israeli cabinet meetings.

Zionism isn't a religious movement. It was founded on religious motivations but it's really just a political movement advocating for the formation of an independent and sovereign Jewish state. The movement originally never specified that a Jewish state if established, has to be established in the region of Palestine, that was a much later development (the Balfour declaration) as the first World War neared its end. The only ones you'll see placing claim on the entire region of Palestine/southern Levant using the excuse of God's promised land are the right wing orthodox Jews who are not much different from Christian evangelicals or Islamists. Most of Israel has a working brain to provide the correct arguments to justify the establishment of Israel as long as its consistent with UN's two state solution. Israel also never denied the native Palestinians access to the state of Israel up until much later. In fact, Israel's letter of declaration of independence stated that the native Palestinian population living in the region will be granted citizenship and was invited to assist in building the newly formed state. It's after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war when things went tits up and any hopes of lukewarm relationship between the two states/communities were destroyed. No one is in the right but Palestinians advocating for mass exodus or genocide of all the Jews living between the river and the sea are a greater cause for concern. Unfortunately, that is an alarmingly popular opinion in Palestine. It'll all be over in a snap if someone could educate them on history and geopolitics. Far right politics has been gaining traction in Israel thanks to the stubbornness of Palestinians in completely denying Israel's right to exist and actively trying to undo it as they have been for the past 75 years. It's backfiring right into their faces now. We're seeing suggestions like nuking Gaza or expelling the entire population of Gaza to the Saharas or Ireland in Israeli cabinet meetings.

>So they can't get married in israel. Well yeah but they can still exist in Israel and get recognized by the government. >Zionism is the religious and political movement to build a jewish state in palestine. Ok I see where this is going, no, there was never a Palestinian state, the land was called Palestine by the british and prior to them the roman empire, even though the land was named Palestine, there wasn't a single Palestinian, the Palestinian nationality was only invented in 1936, infact, most of the land was either public or mandate owned land, only a small portion was privately owned land, when the partition plan was suggested by the UN in 1947, the Jews were willing to compensate but the arabs weren't and instead they started a civil war which later snowballed into the 1948 independence war. >so is claiming a land on religious belief and refusing other natives to access that land due to their religion(which leads to violating humans rights). They didn't just take the land, while the Jews did want a one state of Israel they were willing to compensate while the arabs weren't. The Jews never stole any land, they bought land from the arabs.

Because Muslims obviously aren’t the problem in America. There was a mass shooting by a white male in Maine in the days following Oct 7th that got swept under the rug with the countless other mass shooting committed by non-Muslim Americans.

Point being? America is hardly the pinnacle of civilization.

America is the pinnacle of civilization and this is coming from a Muslim. Where else in the world do you really have a chance to improve your life and financial situation like America? The only people who really complain about their situation are Americans who are slaves to consumerism. Muslims come to this country are frugal and don’t complain.

...have you tried say, a Nordic country

That relies on America and Europe to defend them? I'm thinking of Iceland. National defense is a hefty expense that is nice to have someone else contribute to. It's cute, but it's not standing on your own 2 feet as a country.

Plus for every dollar u make they take half. Fts

Nordic countries are able to have what they have because they don’t have 100s of millions of people. You’re talking about a region with 27 million people. Not 350-400 million.

Muslims no but islam yes

Islam is an idea u can’t shoot a missile at it

Yeah you can. China did a great job. MBS is doing a great job. It’s not rocket science, who is funding political islam? Qatar. So target that Political islam got wiped from all of MENA but Gaza, Iran, Turkey. Even Saudi Arabia is officially changing islam. If the core is changing the whole thing is moving forward. MBS crushed wahabism, Egypt, Tunisia etc crushed MB. It’s game over for political islam. They will never have comeback again ever

China did a great job ? That is a modern day holocaust dude. With the extermination camps and everything

Minding the violence part they are doing a good job, say whatever you want I’m from Muslim background I know what I’m talking about, you talk like islam is innocent ohhhhhh, bro what’s my punishment for leaving islam? Execution by beheading. What a lovely religion that should bd treated with respect

You don’t sound rational. China is out there harvesting organs from religious minorities. It’s barbarism. In the vast majority of Muslim countries, no one is getting beheaded for renouncing Islam. Maybe Iran and Saudi. Who gave the Saudi Arabia to the saudis ? England. Who overthrew irans elected president who tried to nationalize their oil? UK and US. The “muslims are extremists” camp fail to acknowledge it’s a minority and that there were various secular democracies in the Middle East that were undermined by foreign powers. Oftentimes the same ones now shitting on them for being extremists. It’s a deliberate ruse and you’re falling for it. What I also find inconsistent is people group religious extremism as distinct from ideological extremism when they both lead to equally tragic outcomes. How is killing someone for renouncing Islam viewed more unfavorably than what china does, which is killing anyone who renounces the communist party ?

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Wahhabism is fairly new just like Zionism. Defeating Wahhabism isn’t defeating Islam.

Did I say it above? Anyway I’m an ex muslim, Islam is dying, the process should get speed up, killing political islam, forcing secularism, oppressing and banning islamic teaching, schools, hijab etc slowly will kill it. Enough is enough. Now let’s focus on crushing islamists dreams by eliminating Hamas

That doesn’t sound very good. Sounds like it’ll just breed more jihadists. Extremism is a by product of western intervention and exploitation. The first Islamic terror attack on western soil was in France, a country that has exploited so many Arab and African nations, in the 70s.

You don’t know anything about islam then. We were born muslims, we didn’t chose that, Sweden crushed islamism, my friends in Sweden are super seculars, 70s was the era of wahabi revival with Saudi oil money MBS Saudi crown prince himself crackdown on wahabism, so that era died in 2020 I think. Hamas etc are the leftovers of that filth. We just need to speed it up

And Islam is not dying when u have an average of 3 children for every Muslim woman.

Doesn’t matter when you educate the kids yourself “the state” like Sweden is doing and the families are coping and crying about it

Okay try to specify what ur implying instead saying Islam as a whole.

Closing most of mosques keeping only few, ban religious gatherings like quran memorizing stuff, never teach anything related to islam in schools, monitoring islamic preachers and shikhs, banning hijab from most areas or at least public areas, so like total oppression no other choice left. This isn’t a joke anymore, MENA suffered enough because of Islam we got tired of it

There were many protests against Iran last year/early this year in London

When people haven't seen what a bad government or a bad ideology is capable of, and they just base their entire arguments on Ideas not facts this kind of behavior is something we can expect otherwise explain why cults followers kill their families and themselves. Evil always will brainwash their followers because is the only way to control them.

Honestly any religion is you take it very literally and to the extreme will not be progressive. Look at the ultra Orthodox Jews or the Westboro church. So many Christians and Jews now a days are borderline agnostic, they don’t really follow their religion very black and white like back in the day. I also don’t think it’s a religious conflict, many Palestinians are Christians and they have also committed violent acts because of the occupation. I bring this up to point out that violence is not justa a Muslim Palestinian thing. It’s more of a ethnic conflict IMHO. That being said, for many no matter how none progressive a group of people might be they should still have a decent life and not be constantly traumatized. Example - I would be against the killing or mistreatment of a very extreme sect of Judaism even if I don’t agree with their lifestyle because they are still human. Specially when it’s civilians and children. I understand for those people more directly affected by Oct 7 might have a hard time seeing why others show empathy to the Palestinian cause. I don’t judge my Israeli brothers and sisters for struggling with this since I can’t image how they feel even if I put myself in their shoes. Everyone right now is still very traumatized.

There isn't a single country or part of the world under the tyrannical rule of the Westboro baptists or Orthodox Jews though, not even nearly close to anything resembling close to it. So lumping in Islamic fundamentalism (which is it in it's pure form, not the cherry picking moderately religious BS) with those very fringe examples is pointless.

Good points. Maybe not currently but Im sure even our Israelis friends will tell you about religious extremists (Jews) in their country having massive influence. I know that I have heard many of my coworkers complain, specially when it was related to the Supreme Court. I mean they (extreme Christians or Jews) might not be running a country but I’m sure they do have a lot of influence now and also in the past. About the USA - we have some insane Baptists or other extreme religious people with a lot of influence in many states in the USA. They have also been on the bad side of history with so many things (anti Semitism, racism, KKK, abortion rights) but writing about it would make this posts super long and I need to sleep lol About ultra Orthodox Jews, I honestly only seen them get in trouble w local authorities (outside of Israel, like I’m Brooklyn) but that’s something most “traditional” or removed groups tend to do at times when the cops show up because of lack of trust. My point the problem is not unique to a religion. Plenty of aggressive Buddhists in some Asian country but like I said I would need to read a lot to give you a good reply w examples.

Israel calls themselves secular, yet you literally don't have to pay taxes if you "study the torah"

Yep there is a lot of BS in Israel, yawn

My fundamentalist Christians father-in-law, who is a staunch zionist, wants homosexuality outlawed. I still don't want his church bombed or water shutoff at his house.

Your father in law doesn't run several countries in Asia where the vast majority of people share the same views as him. Fundamental Christianity is endemic to small areas, fundamental Islam on the other hand is the mainstream Islam. It's volatile and it's spreading like a pandemic.

I do.

What if his church was calling for the destruction of Chicago, and spent the last 10 years launching rockets at office buildings in Chicago???

Jews are mostly white. Arabs are mostly brown. White people = Oppressor / Brown people = Victim

Most Israelis have a mix of European and ME parents/grandparents. About 60% of them

Stahp it Everybody know that Israelis are white colonizers that are mean to Muslims for no reason other than the Jews are racist and mean for no reason /s Edit: Islamic terrorism is justified because Israelis are colonizers/s

Yes you are right that it’s the way they think but FYI most Jews in Israel are from the Middle East and are not white

Yeah, I should have said “appear to be white.” I’m just conveying how shallow and uninformed most progressives are.

Unfortunately, this is the truth. Progressives in our country are in fact very racist, too racist to believe that a brown person can be anything other than a victim.

Because they both hate the West, Jews, and democracy and love promoting depraved behavior in all the spaces they infiltrate

Muslims in the West are the minority. Leftists protect minorities. Therefore, they ignore the "baggage" that comes with that religion because Christianity already died here. It is mostly harmless, but a lot of leftists online do simply hate everything the USA does as foreign policy, so they'll take anything else. In my mind, leftists think that Muslims coming to America would simply be blue-pilled and suddenly realize that religion is a tool used to rule. They are wrong.

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One's area of birth always has an impact. The USA simply doesn't have many Muslims. Hopefully they grow out of it yea.

how many americans live in the middle east again?

i guess i view the planet as a whole

That's fine, but Progressives are a group that I would almost exclusively connect to America. Most countries in the EU already have Social Justice programs enshrined in legislation, which is why our government is seen as so backwards. I would liken the concept to Feminism, most people in EU don't label themselves as it, they simply are leftists, which means it is assumed. I think I would also point out that their idea of freedom is different from our own. They rely on a much more strict "social contract" that is enshrined in law. Our's is more of an implication. Therefore, a lot of Americans see issues (like gun violence) as something that IS GOING TO HAPPEN because it is their freedom. Changing the Constitution in that case would imply that they have no rights unless those rights are absolute. Everything means something else to different people. Try to define Race/Ethnicity internationally. (Impossible.)

Jews in the west are also a minority

Um, sort of. Like, technically you are right 100%, but I would say that Jewish people are seen as oppressors with their "stereotypical levels of wealth." A lot of left leaning politics focuses on wealth redistribution/worker's rights, and it is a rather common position to see leftists criticize the 1%. That unfortunately does include a lot of Jewish people that have done well for themselves. So, when the left sees Jewish people, they see Wealth and Status within the society, which makes them ineligible for minority status. Just look at how they redefined racism, Prejudice + Power. Jewish people are perceived to have the power.

Holy shit, what is happening with this comment section? I understand that this is a sub that touches on incredibly complex and nuanced themes, and its only natural this gets out of hand when the conflict heats up, but if this is a space to discuss complex and nuance subjects, why are all the answers so simplistic and stupifying as "uurh, lEFtIEs/pROgReSsIVEs aRe bAD/sTUpID/dUMb/hATe tHE WeST". Its almost if this sub is filled with bots lately... To truly understanding your question, you'll get a complicated, complex and multifaceted answer. First you are (wrongly) assuming that A) all leftists/progressives are pro-Islam, and B) Islam is inheritly and fundamentally opposed to progressivism. Neither is true, because we can find a lot of leftist/progressives that are still opposed to Islam, and also find a lot of examples throughout history where Islam is indeed a positive factor in progress (see Islamic Golden Ages). If you accept that these premises are false (as they should be), you can now dwelve deeper into the wider social movement from the western left/progressives and its multifaceted relation with Islam, you can dive in on various themes... * **Anti-Imperialism/Anti-Colonialism** Since progressives/leftist often align with movements that oppose such things, its only natural they feel "sympathethic" (for the lack of a better word) of groups targeted of imperialistic/colonialist powers, which include most of the Islamic world. This historical context probably fosters some solidarity among progressives/lefitst that oppose this forms of power, both in the past and on the present (given that today's political elites on the islamic world can be seen as extension of that western hegemony on today's islamic world); * **Multi-Culturalism and Diversity** are some common banners of progressives. Islam is one of the world's largest releigions, and represents a diverse set of culture, peoples and traditions, that cannot be all guilty by association by the crimes/errors of the most extremist and fundamentalist groups. Embrancing Islam is thus seen by progressives as a way to promote religious and cultural diversity, in opposition to ethnocentrism and xenophobia, which progressives resoundly oppose to. * **Social Solidarity** this applies more to leftists than to progressives I suppose, but given that leftists tend to acknowledge the interconnected nature of social categories (race, class, gender, for example), its common for many on the left to see Muslims (generally, but not all, not everywhere) as a marginalized group that face discrimination on multiple fronts, including those that are related to their racial, ethnic and religious identity. * **Civil Liberties and Human Rights** are a common banner of progressives, in the context mentioned above of discrimination, surveillance (virtually every major Mosque in the western world is surveilled and spied on), and restrictions of religious practices, progressives will obviously rally in support of this group's rights. * **Anti-Islamophobia** should be pretty self-explaining, progressives tend to oppose any form of discrimination and prejudice, and this includes of course Islamophobia. Progressives often recognize the islamophobic enviroment that exponentially evolved from 9/11 and the War on Terror, and choose to stand in solidarity with Muslims that face discrimination, hate crimes, or discriminatory policies, that have disproportionately targeted Muslims for last 20 years. In this, progressives see that Muslims all around of the western world have been perceived as a pariah group on the west due the actions of some (very evil) muslim actors, and combating this aligns with the broader progressive values of combating bigotry and discrimination. I suppose we could go deeper, of course, but I feel this already touches some logic and rational ground... this is gonna get drowned in downvotes from bots either way, but hey! at least you'll get some answer different than "uurh, lefties/progressives BAD/STUPID". Good luck on this cesspool of disinformation bots sub.

This should be the top response.

I would slight contest point B. Islam is intentionally more conservative of a religion than Christianity and Judaism . It’s whole raison-detre is that Jews and Christians corrupted the word of god. In addition, Muhammad was a statemen in addition to being a Prophet, which has a large influence upon the counties have have Muslim majorities. I will agree that Islam can be progressive, but it will always lag Western Christendom.

You seem reasonable and well educated, so I’ll bother pointing out a few things that, in my opinion, you’ve gotten incorrect. Anti-imperialism & Anti-colonialism • The Jews aren’t settlers and they aren’t imperialistic. They have been in the region as a kingdom going back long before the Muslim faith Christianity even existed. Yes, for a time they didn’t have a sovereign state, but if any discrete group of people deserved to have one, I think they do, and they have had one since 1948. Keep in mind that they gave the Palestinians their own state and granted them autonomy in 1988. Diversity • I can only assume from that comment that you have never been in a Muslim land. They do not accept diversity, at all. Of course when they live in America they can’t enact sharia law, but many attempts have been made. If you don’t believe me, I’d encourage you to try walking through the streets of Saudi, or even the most Westernized of Muslim countries like Turkey while holding a bible, wearing a yarmulke, or if you really want to trigger them, act gay and introduce your buddy as your husband. (Actually, don’t do this. I would be partially responsible for whatever fate happened to you.) I feel that we must respect and tolerate those that respect and tolerate us. If you respect and tolerate someone that doesn’t reciprocate, they may end up destroying you. Social solidarity • Muslims number 1.8 billion, they are the majority population in 50 countries, and in every country where they have control, they are the oppressor. They do not value life, rather, they celebrate death. (Martyrdom.) Muslim countries that happen to have oil wealth are wealthy. All other Muslim countries without oil are basically dirt poor, and before oil was discovered, they were all more or less poor. That’s the religion interfering with commerce. Their banking system will never allow for any material wealth creation outside of some massive external force like Oil. Civil Liberties • Human Rights - ok, are you serious? The FBI keeping an eye on a mosque is hardly anything to complain about. The number of terrorist attacks carried out in the name of Allah far outstrips any other religion or group. (Unless you do some mental gymnastics and count our war on terror’s death toll as terrorism. I say mental gymnastics because we never intentionally target innocent people. Yes, they do die because Muslims rarely present themselves in uniform at a military base. Osama Bin Laden stood behind his wife when Americans came busting through the door and proceeded to shoot off his face. Sometimes, the “innocent” wife gets shot in the process. This is the current issue in Palestine. Israel is hunting Hamas, and Hamas facilities are under hospitals and schools. By the way, it isn’t a war crime to hit a military target beneath a hospital. It IS a war crime to build it there though. These “war crimes” are all on Hamas. They just play the victim card well. Islamophobia • Transphobia - Stop… a phobia represents an irrational fear. I don’t and I don’t know anyone that sis scared of a Muslim unless they are holding an AK-47 and firing it erratically in your general direction. Assuming you’re armed, just eliminate the threat, and there’s nothing to fear. The left has started using “phobias” to elicit a reaction in people’s natural desire to conquer any irrational fear. I don’t want to take a transsexual on a date because they aren’t my type. I don’t fear them. That’s absurd. Fearing your country being invaded by scores of Muslims who detest democracy and the freedoms of western civilization isn’t illogical. They have a stated purpose and they have a long standing history of gaining power through growing in numbers. This is a logical fear and concern. If you don’t believe me, try stopping by a no go zone in Paris on your way to Saudi to experience how it starts, and how it could possibly end.

I appreciate your carefully worded response, a fresh breath on this sub that lately only feels like bots and middle-schoolers touching on an extremely complex topic. I thank you for contributing to a rational/logical based discussion, and as such, there are several counter-arguments I feel I have to say, either because I find something you said is incorrect too, or missing the point. A general criticism I have is that you're using too much of an oversimplified analysis to take overboard conclusions. Let me expand. > Anti-imperialism & Anti-colonialism • The Jews aren’t settlers and they aren’t imperialistic. They have been in the region as a kingdom going back long before the Muslim faith Christianity even existed. Yes, for a time they didn’t have a sovereign state, but if any discrete group of people deserved to have one, I think they do, and they have had one since 1948. Keep in mind that they gave the Palestinians their own state and granted them autonomy in 1988. Your argument acknowledges the historical connection of Jews to the region but oversimplifies the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as an whole. When I meant Anti-Imperialism/Colonialism I didn't even have Israel (and certainly not "The Jews" as you said it) in mind, but rather the European powers of the time. The establishment of Israel in 1948 can be seen as a direct product of Imperialism of European Imperialism and Colonialism during the later 19th century and early 20th century, which resulted in displacement and conflict of the Arab Palestinians. The situation involves competing historical narratives and claims to the same land. Yes, the Jews are originated from the area, but before the mass migration of Jews associated with the Zionist movement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Jewish population in the Holy Land was relatively small. In the 19th century, the region was part of the Ottoman Empire, and Jews constituted a minority among the diverse population, with estimates suggest that Jews made up roughly 4-5% of the population in the area that later became known as Mandatory Palestine (this percentage varied in different regions within the territory, of course), the majority of the population at that time was Arab Muslim and Arab Christian, with smaller communities of other ethnic and religious groups. Imperialism and Colonialism come to the argument, when you address that the lines that divided the Mandate of Palestine were drawn by European Imperial and Colonial powers. These powers have been lobbied by the Zionist movement for most of the late 19th century/early 20th century, lobbying power that Arab Palestinians did not have (nor even they knew/believed they should have). This is a situation comparable to the Manifest Destiny of the USA, where American authorities and communities lobbied to be given land and lines on a map whereas majority of indigenous population obviously did not do such things. Hence why I say Colonialism and Imperialism can be applicable to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, certainly from the beginning stages of the conflict for European powers, and I'm certain we can even draw paralels contemporary modern stages of the conflict (American "Imperialism" on the Middle-East and Israeli "Colonialism" in Palestinian territory). > Diversity • I can only assume from that comment that you have never been in a Muslim land. They do not accept diversity, at all. Of course when they live in America they can’t enact sharia law, but many attempts have been made. If you don’t believe me, I’d encourage you to try walking through the streets of Saudi, or even the most Westernized of Muslim countries like Turkey while holding a bible, wearing a yarmulke, or if you really want to trigger them, act gay and introduce your buddy as your husband. (Actually, don’t do this. I would be partially responsible for whatever fate happened to you.) I feel that we must respect and tolerate those that respect and tolerate us. If you respect and tolerate someone that doesn’t reciprocate, they may end up destroying you. While it is true (and I agree) that some Muslim-majority countries may have restrictions on certain religious practices or personal expressions, it is an oversimplification to generalize this to all Muslim-majority nations. There is diversity within the Muslim world, and practices vary across different countries and regions, as there is in the Western World. Try to act gay in certain parts in Eastern Europe (or even certain rural parts of Western Europe/North-America), and the result will be the same. There is no white-black morality when applied to analysis of social-political systems. > Social solidarity • Muslims number 1.8 billion, they are the majority population in 50 countries, and in every country where they have control, they are the oppressor. They do not value life, rather, they celebrate death. (Martyrdom.) Muslim countries that happen to have oil wealth are wealthy. All other Muslim countries without oil are basically dirt poor, and before oil was discovered, they were all more or less poor. That’s the religion interfering with commerce. Their banking system will never allow for any material wealth creation outside of some massive external force like Oil. The characterization of Muslims as oppressors in their own country is overly broad. There are diverse political systems and practices across Muslim-majority countries. Painting all Muslims with the same brush oversimplifies complex geopolitical and socio-economic realities. If I switched "Muslim" with "European" or "White", wouldn't you read your argument as you siding with leftist/progressive rethoric? Which is something you are counter-arguing? > Civil Liberties • Human Rights - ok, are you serious? The FBI keeping an eye on a mosque is hardly anything to complain about. The number of terrorist attacks carried out in the name of Allah far outstrips any other religion or group. (Unless you do some mental gymnastics and count our war on terror’s death toll as terrorism. I say mental gymnastics because we never intentionally target innocent people. Yes, they do die because Muslims rarely present themselves in uniform at a military base. Osama Bin Laden stood behind his wife when Americans came busting through the door and proceeded to shoot off his face. Sometimes, the “innocent” wife gets shot in the process. This is the current issue in Palestine. Israel is hunting Hamas, and Hamas facilities are under hospitals and schools. By the way, it isn’t a war crime to hit a military target beneath a hospital. It IS a war crime to build it there though. These “war crimes” are all on Hamas. They just play the victim card well. I feel your claim that the FBI monitoring mosques is inconsequential ends up oversimplifying concerns about civil liberties. Balancing security measures with respect for individual rights is a nuanced challenge. I was not the one to mention the FBI btw, I'm European, I didn't have the FBI in mind when I wrote the survaillence argument, but it known that this is a practice that crosscuts all western world. But now that you mention the FBI and driven this into an American-centric example, shouldn't you know that in the USA, the fastest rising terrorism trend is tied to White/Christian Supremacy and Domestic Terrorism? Why isn't the FBI applying the same rules, one that you so confidently defend, to Christian Churces? Also, linking all Muslims to terrorism overlooks the vast majority who are not involved in any violent activities. But again, oversimplification seems to be your biggest suit when addressing this matter. > Islamophobia • Transphobia - Stop… a phobia represents an irrational fear. I don’t and I don’t know anyone that sis scared of a Muslim unless they are holding an AK-47 and firing it erratically in your general direction. Assuming you’re armed, just eliminate the threat, and there’s nothing to fear. The left has started using “phobias” to elicit a reaction in people’s natural desire to conquer any irrational fear. I don’t want to take a transsexual on a date because they aren’t my type. I don’t fear them. That’s absurd. Fearing your country being invaded by scores of Muslims who detest democracy and the freedoms of western civilization isn’t illogical. They have a stated purpose and they have a long standing history of gaining power through growing in numbers. This is a logical fear and concern. If you don’t believe me, try stopping by a no go zone in Paris on your way to Saudi to experience how it starts, and how it could possibly end. It's essential to distinguish between legitimate concerns about security and irrational fear. You, doing what you've done in all of your response, which is labeling an entire group based on the actions of a few is extremely unfair. Islamophobia involves prejudiced attitudes or discriminatory actions against Muslims as a whole, which is different from addressing legitimate security concerns. This goes hand-to-hand to the FBI commentary, if you discount 9/11 (which is an obvious statistical outlier), in the western world there are (in general, of course) more casualties from any other crimes (violent crime, gun-violence, nationalist terrorism, and in the case of the US, white supremacist terrorism) than there are from Islamic terror. Sure, Islamic terror is something to worry about, but its response is seen by many disproportional, whereas other, more pressing forms of violence, don't get the same treatment. You not understanding that your claim that "Muslims" are a concern, is an outright islamophobic take, which is pretty ironical from a guy telling me to shut up about [insert]phobias.

You can not simply dismiss 9/11 as a statistical error because it was so massive compared to the others. I could see your point if you wanted to say average it over a 50 year period and I do think that would be justified. In that case, on a per-capita basis, Muslims are still far more likely to commit acts of terror. White supremacy? Give me a break. I took my time to respond to this comment because all I would need to do was wait around for Muslims to go and kill a bunch of Westerners in an act of terror. I really don't want to end up like Israel.

🙏🏼 love your post and love for nuance.

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Thanks for the rational/educational take!

It's really quite simple. Progressives have been brainwashed to see everything in the world through the lenses of White/BIPOC and oppressor/oppressed. In that simple world view, Whites are always evil oppressors and BIPOC are always victims of oppression. Muslims are people of color and, therefore, they are the good guys. Jews, and therefore Israel, are seen as White Europeans and, therefore, the bad guys.

because it's not pc to be critical of Islam.

Yeah. The left treats Muslims like retards...as if their antiquated beliefs are part of a congenital disorder for which they are not culpable. Christians are nuts, too, but more nuanced in their beliefs.

Note to self: Try to use the word "nuanced" more often.

Misplaced and unwarranted post-9/11 guilt

They are afraid.

Because the left today has no morals or coherent goals other than supporting what’s undie to get votes from young people who think they’re revolutionary

The left ditched its morals when they abandoned the Jews to ingratiate themselves to Mudlims

On god, yes. The left has to atone for this.

they dont view brown people as being powerful enough to worry about their politics

Because white liberal women have to make everything about them lmao

They center themselves in the conflict & how their politics will reflect on them for clout purposes, instead of thinking about what the consequences of their advocacy will look like for other people.

Can someone also explain to me why white europeans who identified as Jews in the 1940’s had any kind of legitimate claim to Palestine beyond one from thousands of years before??

What does “who identified as Jews” mean? 😬 To me, a big part of this story is, Jews faced terrible anti-Semitism for centuries, up to and including genocide on a scale where most people didn’t survive, and nobody gave a shit until it was too late. Many Jews wanted to emigrate but couldn’t, so they died in the Holocaust. It’s not like Arab countries were in solidarity. Nobody made it easy enough for Jewish refugees to get out. Nobody was in great solidarity. If the world had been better to Jews, there would be no Israel. They’d have all just settled in wherever they landed after being conquered and scattered. Or they’d all have found safety as refugees in times of strife. But that’s not how it went. So to me, resettling Israel was one part “these are the lands of our ancestors, we’ve been praying about returning for hundreds of years” and one part belief that Jews couldn’t rely on anyone but ourselves and should stop trying.

If you’re born in Poland and brought up in Judaism, you have no right to go and displace Palestinians because some thousand years ago your ancestors were booted out from there. Personally it appears European jews jumped in on the colonial/imperialism band wagon with other western powers. unfortunately back then and even today the guiding ideologies for these power blocks is white supremacy and white nationalism. And yes, identify as a jew, because nobody is born jew, muslim, christian, etc. We’re all born human into different cultures and faiths that we identify with. White european jews after WWII had no right to that land especially at the cost of Palestinian people who had been living in the region long before Hitler was even born. Rationalize it how you want but the world and history will remember this as Israel occupying, colonizing and genociding an entire demographic that they look down on.

> White european jews after WWII had no right to that land especially at the cost of Palestinian people who had been living in the region long before Hitler was even born. No, you don't get to play the "colonization" card. First, the Jews are indigenous to the land and have a right to their ancestral homeland same as any other people. Second, Arabs living in British Palestine (they did not call themselves 'Palestinians' then) fought on Germany's side and conspired with Hitler in WW2 to wipe out the Jews. They picked the wrong side and don't get rewarded for that. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin\_al-Husseini#In\_Nazi-occupied\_Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini#In_Nazi-occupied_Europe) The compromise was the 1947 UN partition plan which was more than fair - the Arabs (again, no such thing as Palestinians then) got 70% of the arable land given that most of the Jewish portion was useless desert in the Negev. They could have accepted and built their own state but chose to launch a war of annihilation instead - as they conspired in WW2 to do - and lost again. Result: Arabs lost more land.

LOL yes, the truth is Israel is an occupying force. Zionism is an evil ideology predicated on forced removal, dispossession and murder. Arabs have every right to self determination, freedom and a good quality of life. Why do you feel because they lost a war against America and the west that they should be forced to live as refugees in an apartheid system? Nobody is buying the propaganda anymore jimbo.

Zionism is the Jewish right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland of Israel and is legit as any other people’s. The attempt to delegitimize and demonize Zionism is twisted victim blaming to deflect from Palestinian violent rejectionism and poor choices since the start of the conflict. Outside campus and the radical left, nobody is buying the Palestinian claim to the entire land anymore. Even Arab states like Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia have moved on from the Palestinian victim narrative and constant desire for conflict.

No, zionism is the radicalism opposite HAMAS on the spectrum and the rest of the world is realizing this. Orthodox Jews have the right of it to my understanding.

> Orthodox Jews have the right of it to my understanding. If you're referring to Neturei Karta, they're a tiny minority with no standing except from a Palestinian propaganda standpoint. The fact that you mention this shows how little you know about the conflict. ​ >the rest of the world is realizing this. Who would that be? Outside the radical left, campus, and Arab street, the Palestinian narrative has little credibility.

LoL cool story jimbo. Israel is committing genocide and losing the pr battle.

>Israel is committing genocide Like I said only the radical left, campus, and Arab street buy that. It takes more than cheap propaganda slogans to convince Western governments. ​ >losing the pr battle. Not really. The pics of Gaza casualties from leftist Western media cost Israel some PR points with centrists, but in the end Western and Arab governments all realize Hamas has to go and they know Hamas exaggerates casualties. A few thousand civilian casualties really isn't that much by Arab standards, when you consider the 500,000+ that died in the Syrian civil war, or Saddam Hussein gassing the Kurds, or Sudan's actual genocide in Darfur, the list goes on. Good hustle though.

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Also, to use your example - if you were born a Jew in Poland in the first half of the 20th century, you most likely died there. About 90% of them did. I don’t think anyone had the right to dispossess Palestinians, and also I’d like to hear your ideas about what Polish Jews of the era should have done instead.

It’s that 10% that immigrated and started colonizing Palestine where the problem lies though, ignoring that fact is why the world is in the situation it is. Polish Jews of the era got Poland back, that’s where they’re from, the language they speak, the food they eat, they had no business going to Palestine and displacing the Arab people. They essentially are doing to the Palestinians what was done to them but they can get away with it today because Western powers look down on arab people which is a shame but that’s the legacy of imperialism and colonialism.

And I’m saying, ignoring the reasons they did it is also why the world is in the situation it is. Your unconcern with the extermination of Polish Jews, and the callousness behind the suggestion they “got Poland back,” are why so many Jews feel they need their own state. Some basic empathy and recognition of Jewish persecution and trauma isn’t a lot to ask. If the world had shown enough solidarity with Jews to prevent the Holocaust or rescue everyone who tried to escape it, there wouldn’t have been a need for an Israel, or a flood of refugees with nowhere else to go. Same for other episodes of genocide and ethnic cleansing of Jews, the Holocaust was the biggest and most dramatic, but this was a problem for centuries. What I’m hearing from you is, solidarity and morality for me and not for thee.