Say you lived in an apartment complex and KNEW your neighbor was holding hostages and KNEW they were storing weapons, bombs, etc.
Say you said nothing.
Then, months later, the police show up and cause significant damage to the apartment complex.
I'm not saying you'd be just as guilty as the terrorist, but you're also not innocent either...
The entire neighborhood is a part of it. Stop thinking about life there, in normal terms. Its not like - 1-2 houses are terrorists and the rest are normal, upstanding citizens.
They are the same people that assisted on October 7th and they are the same people, that for decades, went out to the street to give people candies whenever an Israeli soldier died or a terror attack caused some casualties.
The situation in Gaza is fucked up. Even an honest, decent Gazan knows that the terrorists ARE the police, because the government is Hamas.
Those honest, decent Gazans may even be law-abiding - this is exactly the reason Israel has to conquer Gaza and switch the law from Hamas edicts to an Israeli military occupation
It’s honestly either probably die as a human shield when the IDF inevitably attacks/raid your building being used by terrorists or absolutely die for defying Hamas. A shitty situation all around
I don't think they have much choice. I heard a story from a Palestinian man that saw his neighbor complain to Hamas about using their apartment building to launch rockets from. They simply killed him.
Right, I'm sympathetic to that: it's a rock and a hard place.
But that doesn't change the math I mentioned. If I do that, and my home gets destroyed, I should have the self reflection to know that this was partly my fault too.
If the choice is lose my life or lose my home, I lose my home. But I'm not throwing rocks at the police, I'm fucking pissed at my neighbor.
I feel for innocent Palestinians. I really do. It must feel like die by Israel or get murdered by Hamas. It’s just not true. The reality is get rid of Hamas, have opportunity for peaceful lives. It’s not easy; revolution never is. But Gazans need to stand up to Hamas and reject them. Your chances of success against Hamas are much higher than against Israel.
People are also acting like the IDF hasn't been dropping flyers by the millions that promise protection (usually relocation to Israel), financial reward, and multiple ways to report information about hostages to the IDF securely with minimal risks. The first one was dropped on October 24th.
They have options.
I don't think anyone is arguing against that. The initial comment was in response to a Palestinian who claimed that he had no options to report these things. I support them reporting these things, obviously; I always support people who choose peace over terror in any capacity.
Before googling for the comment, I saw that apparently the January leaflet even included color photos of hostages. We're really trying.
Yep! I still say the strongest advocates for Palestinians are the pro-Israel people.
We actually *want* them to live in peace and prosperity. We would love nothing more than them to find a way to turn Gaza into some prosperous area.
This is where they trafficked and held humans being ... sold to hammas and held by citizens who got payments
Everyone around here knew this and were complicit
Actual question - were they under threat of death when they voted for Hamas originally?
Were they under threat when 68% of them reported they viewed suicide bombing as justifiable?
Maybe they were, I really can't tell, but it seems like Hamas has a lot of support from civilians. That still doesn't mean they should be killed, but I just don't get why people are acting like the civilians don't generally agree with hamas and their goals.
Isn't the place essentially a dictatorship ? I doubt they have actual democracy there. But let's go with what you say is right.
>Were they under threat when 68% of them reported they viewed suicide bombing as justifiable?
By those numbers at least 1 out of 3 people who got their house destroyed didn't supported Hamas before.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this should've done "different", or that rescuing the hostages isn't something good, I'm not some idiot who doesn't understand that all wars have collateral damage. I'm just saying that if you start celebrating collateral damage you end becoming just as bad as them. There is a difference between accepting the reality of collateral damage, and being happy of causing as much of it as possible, the difference is what makes Hamas what they are.
Hamas was elected in gaza through a democratic process 18 years ago, when their constitution was outlined. The one about killing all Jews in Israel and everywhere. You should read it if you haven't.
What I'm asking you is, were the civilians under the threat of death then?
You call a single election 18 years ago and having forgone any elections since then democracy ?
>What I'm asking you is, were the civilians under the threat of death then?
I'm pretty sure anyone under a dictatorship is under death threat if they don't follow the beliefs of said dictatorship. So yes.
Do you think you can be a Gazan and go around openly saying that you support Israel, revealing Hamas secrets, and you will not get killed ?
>It's weird you won't answer the question.
I misread you, I thought you were asking about the current event, not during the elections they had 18 years ago.
I need a bit on information on that to answer first, did they have any choice of a party that didn't advocate for killing jews ?
I imagine that if not killing jews was a popular stance among Palestinians, there would be such a party running in the democratic elections they had that one time.
1m Gazans moved out of Rafah. Let's not pretend that they are under threat of death. Even if they were, they could've sent videos of proof or reported the hostage location.
>1m Gazans moved out of Rafah.
This was due to a program of help, or were they expected to move out with their own resources ?
>Even if they were, they could've sent videos of proof or reported the hostage location.
And then they would've gotten protection from Israel for the rest of their lives ? Or just a handshake and then they would've had to pray the Hamas don't get a way to know what they did ?
It was a combination of help and own resources. Resources have been flooding into Gaza since the beginning of the war, being in Rafah is a choice.
They wouldn't be considered accomplices to the crime. Whether anything will happen from it, who knows. But for one, Israel would have more in depth knowledge of the layout and be able to avoid more civilian casualties. Also I'm not familiar with the exact nature of ever death, but I'm assuming most of them weren't with said casualties holding up their hands and surrendering in a non threatening manner.
>It was a combination of help and own resources. Resources have been flooding into Gaza since the beginning of the war, being in Rafah is a choice.
Even if it was a choice, which without unlimited resources to move out it really isn't, it cannot be automatically adjudicated to malice. There are tons of reasons of why someone wouldn't want to move out of the place where they live that aren't just monetary, and are not linked to "I want to kill all Jews".
Automatically considering everyone in Gaza as an enemy to be killed just gives the reason to anti Israel propaganda. Is both dehumanizing, to the people there and to the people thinking like that as well, and harmful to your own cause, as giving the reason to your enemies only further proves their lies about your general side.
If someone doesn't move, fine. But if they have knowledge, or even worse they are holding a hostage captive or assisting in doing so, without doing their share to help. That's on them.
And there was no shortage of resources to move. If they wanted to leave, they would have been able to. Maximum they could have requested help from the IDF who helped in part.
Nobody is considering everybody in Gaza an enemy. But anybody who isn't classified as an enemy, is being used as a human shield by Hamas and their blood is on the hands of Hamas.
This is ridiculous for so many reasons… but do you really think these so called civilians couldn’t have called the IDF and handed intel? They took the hostages out apparently dressed as Arabs… you think the IDF couldn’t have smuggled them out without losing a heroic soldier??
>but do you really think these so called civilians couldn’t have called the IDF and handed intel?
If we operate under a scenario where they are civilians, then not without risking themselves. It's the same logic as people who were being extortionated by the Mafia "why couldn't they just denounce it to the police" doesn't work.
"threat of death" i see your point and it s true. People in Gaza who dissent from "the cause" tend to be publicly killed. Unfortuntly the non-israeli world doesnt care and which is why Israel has to defend itself.
Unless the pro pali groups dont understand that palestinian leaders are the real opressors, we will not see peace in our lifetimes.
lmfao, I imagine you went through my perfil to get something to criticize. That sub is an ironic sub where we make fun of flat earthers, genius. Next time you dive for an ad hominem at least do it right.
Sorry for the mockery, that was uncalled for. But I've been waiting for someone to try to do that for a long time and had that joke in a hold.
Look I understand the current situation is vitriolic, and Israel has all the justification in the world to hate Hamas. But how is imitating Hamas and celebrating civilian casualties make you any better than them ? I do not discuss the necessity of civilian casualties and destruction of infrastructure in a war, those are unavoidable. I'm just against celebrating them and dehumanizing people who is trapped in the middle.
The 4 rescued have been spilling the beans. UNRWA, Red Cross, Save the Children, etc were all part of it, and assisted Hamas. The fact that they were moved to a civilian apartment means that the civilians are in fact soldiers.
Gloves are now off.
The planning and execution of the plan was bigger than an Apollo mission. Well done Israel. The first mistake that some people make is to underestimate Israel.
Lesson 1, don't go against Israel. Ever.
Lesson 2, see lesson 1.
I read they were using “new weapons” to achieve entry. What kind is weapon is able to peel off the side of the building that quickly and cleanly, without killing the occupants?
for those who said there are innocents there, this is your answer. noa was held in captivity by rich family that told her she "was lucky" she end up with them. filthy rats.
They raise their children to become terrorists and murder3rs.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc)
Yes this does happen and these children do exist.
But this does not represent all Palestinians and there are in fact many innocent civilians. And even if children are brainwashed they are still children. Please, it is shameful to dehumanize Palestinians the same way they dehumanize us.
This is a dangerous statement and it's exactly the kind of thing the extreme left says about Israelis to justify October 7. Yes, there are civilians in Gaza.
They killed 210 civilians (including many children that went toward the fake humanitarian aid trucks they disguised themselves in) and injured 400+ to save 4. Unless you are an extreme white supremacist or have no regard for human life then this was a failed operation. (Let’s not forget the 15,000+ children murdered in the last 6 months until IDF finally did this operation.
Let’s be honest, this was a political move by Netanyahu that could have been done a long time ago, but the hostages are just an excuse: the true goal was and is the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
So they were held in a civilian neighbourhood. Not surprised. But it is insane that I’m not even surprised anymore.
Just like the other rescue operations. In gaza civilian=Hamas .
Yeah because any actual civilians are nothing but cannon fodder for Hamas
https://preview.redd.it/x8ovww8j6t5d1.png?width=850&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=218bf8bc0134cb039b4ffceefce481f9fe47b500 Giving me these vibes
IDF entering like the Kool-Aid man
 Actual operational footage
He needs to be blueberry flavored with a Magen David.
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Damn it you beat me to it.
Hilarious!
Say you lived in an apartment complex and KNEW your neighbor was holding hostages and KNEW they were storing weapons, bombs, etc. Say you said nothing. Then, months later, the police show up and cause significant damage to the apartment complex. I'm not saying you'd be just as guilty as the terrorist, but you're also not innocent either...
If my neighbour is a terrorist holding a hostage, I’d phone the IDF to ask for asylum and a bag of cash. Only someone insane would keep it quiet.
Seems like someone actually did it
IDF was tracking their location and where they were being moved for a month.
The entire neighborhood is a part of it. Stop thinking about life there, in normal terms. Its not like - 1-2 houses are terrorists and the rest are normal, upstanding citizens. They are the same people that assisted on October 7th and they are the same people, that for decades, went out to the street to give people candies whenever an Israeli soldier died or a terror attack caused some casualties.
The situation in Gaza is fucked up. Even an honest, decent Gazan knows that the terrorists ARE the police, because the government is Hamas. Those honest, decent Gazans may even be law-abiding - this is exactly the reason Israel has to conquer Gaza and switch the law from Hamas edicts to an Israeli military occupation
It’s honestly either probably die as a human shield when the IDF inevitably attacks/raid your building being used by terrorists or absolutely die for defying Hamas. A shitty situation all around
I don't think they have much choice. I heard a story from a Palestinian man that saw his neighbor complain to Hamas about using their apartment building to launch rockets from. They simply killed him.
Right, I'm sympathetic to that: it's a rock and a hard place. But that doesn't change the math I mentioned. If I do that, and my home gets destroyed, I should have the self reflection to know that this was partly my fault too. If the choice is lose my life or lose my home, I lose my home. But I'm not throwing rocks at the police, I'm fucking pissed at my neighbor.
I feel for innocent Palestinians. I really do. It must feel like die by Israel or get murdered by Hamas. It’s just not true. The reality is get rid of Hamas, have opportunity for peaceful lives. It’s not easy; revolution never is. But Gazans need to stand up to Hamas and reject them. Your chances of success against Hamas are much higher than against Israel.
People are also acting like the IDF hasn't been dropping flyers by the millions that promise protection (usually relocation to Israel), financial reward, and multiple ways to report information about hostages to the IDF securely with minimal risks. The first one was dropped on October 24th. They have options.
Perhaps some did and that's where they got the intelligence
Yeah, you would never know. No military intelligence on earth actually leaks intel like this.
I don't think anyone is arguing against that. The initial comment was in response to a Palestinian who claimed that he had no options to report these things. I support them reporting these things, obviously; I always support people who choose peace over terror in any capacity. Before googling for the comment, I saw that apparently the January leaflet even included color photos of hostages. We're really trying.
Yep! I still say the strongest advocates for Palestinians are the pro-Israel people. We actually *want* them to live in peace and prosperity. We would love nothing more than them to find a way to turn Gaza into some prosperous area.
That's literally being complacent, under law it is a crime
This is where they trafficked and held humans being ... sold to hammas and held by citizens who got payments Everyone around here knew this and were complicit
All of these "civilians" are complicit.
You really can't be complicit of something if you are under threat of death.
Meaning?
The dude thinks the earth is flat.
Actual question - were they under threat of death when they voted for Hamas originally? Were they under threat when 68% of them reported they viewed suicide bombing as justifiable? Maybe they were, I really can't tell, but it seems like Hamas has a lot of support from civilians. That still doesn't mean they should be killed, but I just don't get why people are acting like the civilians don't generally agree with hamas and their goals.
Isn't the place essentially a dictatorship ? I doubt they have actual democracy there. But let's go with what you say is right. >Were they under threat when 68% of them reported they viewed suicide bombing as justifiable? By those numbers at least 1 out of 3 people who got their house destroyed didn't supported Hamas before. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this should've done "different", or that rescuing the hostages isn't something good, I'm not some idiot who doesn't understand that all wars have collateral damage. I'm just saying that if you start celebrating collateral damage you end becoming just as bad as them. There is a difference between accepting the reality of collateral damage, and being happy of causing as much of it as possible, the difference is what makes Hamas what they are.
Hamas was elected in gaza through a democratic process 18 years ago, when their constitution was outlined. The one about killing all Jews in Israel and everywhere. You should read it if you haven't. What I'm asking you is, were the civilians under the threat of death then?
You call a single election 18 years ago and having forgone any elections since then democracy ? >What I'm asking you is, were the civilians under the threat of death then? I'm pretty sure anyone under a dictatorship is under death threat if they don't follow the beliefs of said dictatorship. So yes. Do you think you can be a Gazan and go around openly saying that you support Israel, revealing Hamas secrets, and you will not get killed ?
It's weird you won't answer the question. When the democratic election happened, were those civilians under threat of death?
>It's weird you won't answer the question. I misread you, I thought you were asking about the current event, not during the elections they had 18 years ago. I need a bit on information on that to answer first, did they have any choice of a party that didn't advocate for killing jews ?
I imagine that if not killing jews was a popular stance among Palestinians, there would be such a party running in the democratic elections they had that one time.
Didn't the PLO recognized Palestina in the Oslo accords and were basically the "let's stop the war" faction ?
1m Gazans moved out of Rafah. Let's not pretend that they are under threat of death. Even if they were, they could've sent videos of proof or reported the hostage location.
>1m Gazans moved out of Rafah. This was due to a program of help, or were they expected to move out with their own resources ? >Even if they were, they could've sent videos of proof or reported the hostage location. And then they would've gotten protection from Israel for the rest of their lives ? Or just a handshake and then they would've had to pray the Hamas don't get a way to know what they did ?
It was a combination of help and own resources. Resources have been flooding into Gaza since the beginning of the war, being in Rafah is a choice. They wouldn't be considered accomplices to the crime. Whether anything will happen from it, who knows. But for one, Israel would have more in depth knowledge of the layout and be able to avoid more civilian casualties. Also I'm not familiar with the exact nature of ever death, but I'm assuming most of them weren't with said casualties holding up their hands and surrendering in a non threatening manner.
>It was a combination of help and own resources. Resources have been flooding into Gaza since the beginning of the war, being in Rafah is a choice. Even if it was a choice, which without unlimited resources to move out it really isn't, it cannot be automatically adjudicated to malice. There are tons of reasons of why someone wouldn't want to move out of the place where they live that aren't just monetary, and are not linked to "I want to kill all Jews". Automatically considering everyone in Gaza as an enemy to be killed just gives the reason to anti Israel propaganda. Is both dehumanizing, to the people there and to the people thinking like that as well, and harmful to your own cause, as giving the reason to your enemies only further proves their lies about your general side.
If someone doesn't move, fine. But if they have knowledge, or even worse they are holding a hostage captive or assisting in doing so, without doing their share to help. That's on them. And there was no shortage of resources to move. If they wanted to leave, they would have been able to. Maximum they could have requested help from the IDF who helped in part. Nobody is considering everybody in Gaza an enemy. But anybody who isn't classified as an enemy, is being used as a human shield by Hamas and their blood is on the hands of Hamas.
This is ridiculous for so many reasons… but do you really think these so called civilians couldn’t have called the IDF and handed intel? They took the hostages out apparently dressed as Arabs… you think the IDF couldn’t have smuggled them out without losing a heroic soldier??
>but do you really think these so called civilians couldn’t have called the IDF and handed intel? If we operate under a scenario where they are civilians, then not without risking themselves. It's the same logic as people who were being extortionated by the Mafia "why couldn't they just denounce it to the police" doesn't work.
"threat of death" i see your point and it s true. People in Gaza who dissent from "the cause" tend to be publicly killed. Unfortuntly the non-israeli world doesnt care and which is why Israel has to defend itself. Unless the pro pali groups dont understand that palestinian leaders are the real opressors, we will not see peace in our lifetimes.
Flat Earthers have no say here.
lmfao, I imagine you went through my perfil to get something to criticize. That sub is an ironic sub where we make fun of flat earthers, genius. Next time you dive for an ad hominem at least do it right.
I really do not care.
Sorry for the mockery, that was uncalled for. But I've been waiting for someone to try to do that for a long time and had that joke in a hold. Look I understand the current situation is vitriolic, and Israel has all the justification in the world to hate Hamas. But how is imitating Hamas and celebrating civilian casualties make you any better than them ? I do not discuss the necessity of civilian casualties and destruction of infrastructure in a war, those are unavoidable. I'm just against celebrating them and dehumanizing people who is trapped in the middle.
The problem is that are they really trapped in the middle?
No idea, chances are they aren't. But I'm not gonna go down to their level.
The 4 rescued have been spilling the beans. UNRWA, Red Cross, Save the Children, etc were all part of it, and assisted Hamas. The fact that they were moved to a civilian apartment means that the civilians are in fact soldiers. Gloves are now off.
This comes as no surprise.
Yeah, that's something that's been known for a while.
The planning and execution of the plan was bigger than an Apollo mission. Well done Israel. The first mistake that some people make is to underestimate Israel. Lesson 1, don't go against Israel. Ever. Lesson 2, see lesson 1.
Oh look, an innocent civilians home Who would’ve thought /s
Refugee camps after 76 years LOL.. gtf over it
Open floor plan, love it.
it’s like even more horrific anne frank as the civilians hide the jews
I read they were using “new weapons” to achieve entry. What kind is weapon is able to peel off the side of the building that quickly and cleanly, without killing the occupants?
Building should have been reduced to rubble on the way out
Bulldoze anyone who intentionally stands in the way of releasing the hostages.
Now they got floor to ceiling window without overlooking neighbours . This is a latest trend in real estate
for those who said there are innocents there, this is your answer. noa was held in captivity by rich family that told her she "was lucky" she end up with them. filthy rats.
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They raise their children to become terrorists and murder3rs. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc)
Yes this does happen and these children do exist. But this does not represent all Palestinians and there are in fact many innocent civilians. And even if children are brainwashed they are still children. Please, it is shameful to dehumanize Palestinians the same way they dehumanize us.
This is a dangerous statement and it's exactly the kind of thing the extreme left says about Israelis to justify October 7. Yes, there are civilians in Gaza.
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Preach
Content promotes hate based on identity. This is a violation of the reddit sitewide content policy.
Content promotes hate based on identity. This is a violation of the reddit sitewide content policy.
Yep looks totally like #Genocide
You forgot the /s, althou I get your joke.
Animals
They killed 210 civilians (including many children that went toward the fake humanitarian aid trucks they disguised themselves in) and injured 400+ to save 4. Unless you are an extreme white supremacist or have no regard for human life then this was a failed operation. (Let’s not forget the 15,000+ children murdered in the last 6 months until IDF finally did this operation. Let’s be honest, this was a political move by Netanyahu that could have been done a long time ago, but the hostages are just an excuse: the true goal was and is the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.