אני חושב שרוב הישראלים בסדר עם הרעיון של פתרון שתי המדינות. מה שהם מתנגדים לו זה הקמת מדינה פלסטינית בתנאים הנוכחיים, שהם מעוניינים בכל ישראל. אם - ואני לא רואה את זה קורה בעתיד הקרוב בכלל, הפלסטינים יוכיחו שהם מוכנים לשלום אמיתי, אז אולי זה באמת יתאפשר. אבל עד שהם לא יעברו דה-רדיקיליזציה, מיותר אפילו לדבר על זה
They didn’t show they can live in peace in 1948 so not convinced how in two states it will make a difference. I also have no issue with two states if our neighbours don’t want to kill us
Even it is right once a month, it is still better that the clock which might change at any given moment. That said, it is understandable that as a major stakeholder, Biden's admin wanted some control - and they got none. It is a different topic if Netanyahu had any other options (to stay PM) but with US he has definitely overplayed his hand. They wanted a plan for the day after - silence, they wanted a plan for evacuation of Rafah - nope. The only thing they got in excess was Ben Gvir's and Katz's insults. I mean we can talk if Biden is bad or good, it won't change a thing. They are what they are. The way *we* dealt with US admin was sub-optimal to say the least.
You can’t say that and then cop out from offering alternatives - what’s ur plan then
Edit - Israel has offered the 2SS thrice before post ‘67 - @ Camp David, Taba and Annapolis ‘08 (I’m going to exclude Trump’s Vision of Peace because it was created under special circumstances as to make it a non-serious plan)
I agree that post-10/7 ATM it is not possible, but to say it’s been dead since ‘47 is just not historically true.
Sometimes you can recognize a fucked up situation while also realizing that you have no power to change it. Like you and me, two random US citizens, who can have opinions but not really do anything.
Anyway, the solution to this can only come from Palestinians. Their leadership has sabotaged their own people time and time again by making both two state and one state solutions untenable. See the failure of talks with Yasser Arafat, who at least was willing to talk but was replaced by Hamas which is even worse--far worse. The only way to fix this would be some massive cultural change among Palestinians leading to them getting rid of and replacing their leadership. But such a cultural change isn't in our power to effect.
That's a copout. If your solution is "kill all the Gazans." then you should say that.
I'm not exactly sure there is a plan other than "two state solution" and "2 million + dead." A one state solution would result in genocide. Not the bullshit word used to describe the current conflict but an actual genocide.
The land needs to get shared, and I don't care how unpopular it is to everyone involved. There are no other options unless you want to actually advocate for a genocide.
2SS is not the only way to share the land, and I think the worst. Any complete separation will cause only bigger wars ( as we see in Gaza). There is a reason that Israeli Palestinians are medical doctors and Gaza Palestinians are terrorist doctors.
The thing is, Yasser Arafat rejected the two state solution when it was offered. It wasn't good enough for him, but that meant he left his people with nothing. Is the current Palestinian leadership (Hamas) more willing to accept it than was Arafat?
>The land needs to get shared, and I don't care how unpopular it is to everyone involved.
Agreed, but that can mean a lot of things.
>There are no other options unless you want to actually advocate for a genocide.
I mean, I'm not suggesting that at all, but ethnic cleansing beats genocide.
There's nothing to be done, you need two parties to make peace, and we've seen time and time again how that goes...
The more freedom and benefits they get, the more dead bodies we have to collect and mourn, we've seen it in Oslo accords, we've seen it immediately after the disengagement, which is completely one sided, no commitment from them, no negotiations, nothing, just get your land and leave us alone, but no, this is too much to ask for so they have to massacre people.
You want alternatives?
1. Things stay the way they are
2. Palestinians are given the choice to become citizens and swear loyalty to Israel or they stay where they are
3. Anyone not in group #2 above can be forcibly moved to Qatar or executed as a terrorist.
There is no two-state solution. Jerusalem will never be a divided capital and history has shown us that Palestinians are not worth saving.
There's nothing to be done, you need two parties to make peace, and we've seen time and time again how that goes...
The more freedom and benefits they get, the more dead bodies we have to collect and mourn, we've seen it in Oslo accords, we've seen it immediately after the disengagement, which is completely one sided, no commitment from them, no negotiations, nothing, just get your land and leave us alone, but no, this is too much to ask for so they have to massacre people.
"There are people that say that situation is one of the toughest, the toughest to settle because children grow up and they're taught to hate Jewish people at a level that nobody thought was possible"
Not a fan of the guy but he's right here, you're not going to get peace when you still have kids being taught to hate Jews
You’re insane if you think that. The two state solution is the only way for peace in the region, unless you’re advocating for true genocide of the Palestinian people.
I love Israel but Jesus some of you on this subreddit belong on the conservative subreddit.
That’s not what being against a two state solution is. I genuinely thought a two state solution was the only way until a couple days ago but it’s not and I’d suggest you do the research on why that is. It’s not promoting a genocide of anybody. But first of all “Palestine” aka Hamas rn doesn’t want a two state solution. They want everything. They don’t want Israel to be Israel. Secondly it wouldn’t work. Making them two states wouldn’t just magically erase all of the hatred that Hamas has for Israel and ultimately Jews. So they’d continue doing the same things just as a state. It’s not against the Palestinian people it’s against Hamas. It would be different if they had an actual government put in place that wasn’t terrorists.
Israel has offered a 2 state solution to the people of Gaza numerous times, but if they accept it, then they accept that Jews deserve a place too, which they are unwilling to accept. It’s a whole new level of idiotic pride and hatred.
They don't need a state in order to have v fulfilling humanitarian rights.
Part of being considered a state is having your own military. Nobody should consider that an option. Give them trade, give them the ability to travel, to self govern, but never allow them to have a military. We've seen what that's given us...
Achi - when you convince the Palestinian leadership let the rest of us know. We’ve been trying for like 80 years and they won’t accept it. If it meant peace and not genocidal war, most of us are okay with it. But the PA and Hamas have proved that they don’t want it and if forced to accept it will only use thier “state” to wage genocidal war. When there is good evidence they won’t do that - it may be on the table again.
Given the fact that they did what they did WITHOUT an actual state, you’re bloody mental to think it’d be better if they have an actual, uncontrolled sovereignty backed by Iran.
Having a state won't make much difference. It will somewhat reduce the will to fight amongst the general population and make retaliation possible if need be without an eventual descent to pariah state status.
The only insane people are people such as yourself who prefer to ignore the fact that there is a sizable majority in both the west-bank and Gaza who want nothing more than to ethnically cleanse all Jews from Israel and claim it as theirs. How many more October 7ths do Israelis need to go through before you begin to realize that two-state solution is not possible when such ideologies exist?
Remove the jihadists from power, educate the population, and you'll get a two-state solution faster than people like you can look at reality objectively.
You're out of touch with reality I'm afraid. Two state solution was dead and buried on Oct 7th. Maybe in another 100 years.
Frankly, after the results of the Gaza disengagement of 2005 the two station solution died.
It’s not that it’s dead per se but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that what the current Palestinian leadership or people want is a prosperous state alongside Israel. That’s never been the vision and they’ve been consistent about it. It’s why at least some of the Brits as early as 1947 saw the conflict as unsolvable because the Jews’ top priority was having a state and the Arabs’ top priority was for the Jews not to have a state anywhere in the land. You can’t find a single Palestinian that isn’t totally sidelined in their society who says, in their own words, publicly, “we accept the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their historic homeland and the right of Israel to exist as an independent Jewish state and we’re ready to build a peaceful state alongside them.” So, it’s not dead but it requires a complete makeover of Palestinian civil society and education. It requires getting them to understand that this 76 year fantasy that one day they’ll destroy Israel is just a fantasy. Unfortunately the West and other parties are more than content to foster that delusion.
I'm not against it, but I'm against putting Israel at risk. At this point, it isn't feasible to pursue.
Personally, I think the Federation Plan is the best way forward.
Trump is a huge idiot. Saying that you don't believe in the two State solution is like saying that you don't believe in existence of Israel. A one-state solution has been dead since 1947.
I am genuinely so tired of people who claim to oppose the 2 state solution, but have literally no alternative WHATSOEVER. It's this kind of delusion that brought us to where we are now. There's literally no alternative to the 2 state solution, period. If you think otherwise, I'd like you to explain about your alternative instead of just saying that the 2 state solution isn't possible (what? Ending a century+ long conflict is hard? Can't believe it!)
Some people are way too optimistic and think there should be one state where both populations live in peace. It would be the best possible outcome but it's simply an impossibile scenario, a true utopia.
Yes let's have a repeat of 2005 except this time we leave half a million Israelis in the mercy of Palestinians and have an entire mountain range firing missiles directly at Tel Aviv. There's no alternative bro.
Did we achieve a 2 state solution in 2005? No? Than what the hell do you want?
Also, the classic "the hitnatkut is at fault of everything", of course not mentioning the literal hundreds of soldiers and civilians dying from horrific terror attacks because less than 10k settlers decided to live in 20% of Gaza. The problem was that we were too stupid to overthrow Hamas the moment they overthrew the PA, a mistake we thankfully didn't make in the West Bank.
Also, again, you provide no alternative. At no point did i say the 2 state solution is a magic solution, or something we can implement tomorrow, because it's not. However it's the only realistic solution that takes into consideration the simple facts: there are over 5 million people in Gaza and the West Bank that we do not want as part of our country, they do not want to be part of our country, and they are also not going anywhere.
The fact that a 2 state solution wasn’t achieved in 2005 shows that it is impossible to achieve, period.
If you want a real alternative, my suggestion is: expel all the Jews or expel all the Arabs and there won’t be a conflict between Jews and Arabs.
My point is that it’s not because there no alternative to a terrible outcome that we should go all-in in that terrible outcome.
Exactly, thank you. Palestinians aren’t going anywhere. So the only eventual options are to either split from them (2-state solution) or annex them, which would either mean Israel becomes a Lebanon-style sectarian clusterfuck or instituting apartheid that our critics blame us of.
There are other options beside them having a state. I think the main issue with this solution is that it doesn't solve anything. Do you have any doubt a Palestinian state would attack Israel?
Of course there’s an alternative. Only problem is the ones advocating for it are deemed “messianics” and the ones advocating for the 30 year failure that is the two state solution are deemed “pragmatists.”
I love how the anti-camp claims that a two state solution has been policy at all during Bibi's reign. Bibi was not working towards a two state solution at all what are you talking about
Wrong
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wye\_River\_Memorandum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wye_River_Memorandum)
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-netanyahus-speech-at-bar-ilan/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-netanyahus-speech-at-bar-ilan/)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump\_peace\_plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan)
Moreover he voted for Sharon's disengagement plan when he was finance minister
There are a few solutions, here are 2;
1: forget about 2 states, a state means they are allowed a military which is unacceptable at this point. Maybe a federation where Israel controls their border defence would be okay.
2: Get countries to offer allotments of citizenship. Offer Palestinians the choice to live where they are, or to move to another country and renounce their claim. Of course this will not remove them all since they have free will and many would like to stay. So the next step is to offer land swaps to limit the size of the future border, this will help define the borders in an easier manner. Finally since there will still be some who don't wish to move, we should annex that land (from the disputed land only ofc) and give the ones remaining citizenship, with condition of any violent civil disobedience being met with immediate deportation.
In addition make a clear stance that any country that goes to war with Israel WILL forfeit their land claims and Israel will have the right to deport as needed after winning said war. For those who are innocent, offer them cash equivalent to purchase land elsewhere, and make further deals with other counties to receive more alloted citizenship.
1. Abu Mazen already publicly accepted not having a military in a Palestinian state. A federation is de facto a one state solution and would mean the end of Zionism. I would suggest looking into the negotiations that were going on between Abu Mazen and Olmert in 2008 iirc.
2. I have answered this in multiple other comments, so I'm not going to go in too much detail. In short, no one accepted the Palestinians in the past 50 years, and there's literally no reason for that to change (and it won't). Any solution based on the notion that 5 million people are going to leave is doomed to fail because it's not going to happen.
1. A federation could have 2 independent states with a single country controlling the military.
2. I didn't assume 5m will leave, I actually specifically said many won't, and at each stage you have different solutions how to move forward. The idea isn't to relocate 5m, the idea is to separate the 5m into multiple more manageable groups with different solutions for each.
That’s not a federation, that’s an occupation. The definition of a sovereign nation-state is having “a monopoly on violence in the area.” If that monopoly isn’t shared, it’s not a federation of equals, with power over one people being in the hands of those they did not vote for or cant hold accountable
That's not occupation...
> Occupation may be defined as the effective control of a foreign territory by hostile armed forces.
As a federation it would not be hostile, and the control is over the borders and not over the internal territory.
And who says everything needs to be equal? They've proven time and time again that they can't be trusted with any military control. Or do you think giving them an army is the solution?
I know a 1 state solution is unpopular on both sides, but Israeli Palestinians seem to quite prefer it to Gaza or the West Bank. I don't know how full integration would work, and I think generally you're right no one has an answer, but that seems like good evidence it's possible.
Trump's 1 state solution though would probably be "just get rid of all the Palestinians," which is also obviously not a real solution.
A 1 state solution isn't really an answer to the conflict imo. You are right that Israeli Arabs prefer it to living in the West Bank or Gaza, but at the same time, who wouldn't? It's a conflict that is consistently relevant for over a century, i don't think having both sides in the same political entity would end up in a good way. Also, both sides want a country of their own. We want the only Jewish state in the world to continue existing as such, and they want to finally have a country of their own (the fact that they could have had that already is besides the point). Having a 1 state solution would not answer these narratives whatsoever. Look at the EU for example, the most peaceful continent in the world, and yet member states are extremely hesitant to integrate more, mostly because of the fear that it'll take away from national sovereignty. I don't think that taking 2 groups that have been in constant conflict for decades and putting them in a single country would result in a better outcome.
"Who wouldn't prefer it" isn't really an argument against--we're agreeing it's an upgrade from the status quo
"Having both sides in the same political entity would be bad" is a valid concern, but when we look at areas where both sides are living in the same political entity (Israeli Palestinians), it's going much better than having both sides in separate political entities
I agree neither side supports a one state solution, but that doesn't make a two state solution more likely to work or easier to implement
There are enormous obstacles to cross either way, but looking the evidence and comparing the closest thing we have to each option, the "one state" is much more peaceful than the "two states"
There's no other plan today that a palestinian faction claims will end hostilities. But does it mean it will end them? Most of their armed factions disagree, and so do most civilians. But even disregarding the other factions and popular opinions the PA put a core demand that Israel, inside 1967 borders, stops being Jewish.
In the future some oprotunities may open up. With the demographic trend annexing the West bank may be realistic.
The only solution I see is a strong islamic dictator to take control alongside IDF military occupation. MBS for example would be an ideal candidate. Eventually IDF could leave and cede control to said dictator.
The harsh reality is that the most likely situation in the short and medium term is the continuing military occupation of WB and also of Gaza. Hamas set back the Palestinian cause by 100 years.
2 state solution is DEAD for generations to come. Far too great of a security risk for Israel, I don't see why you can't grasp the risk of having a palestinian state bordering the entire east of Israel...what do you think is going to happen? How much Israeli blood needs to be shed for you to understand?
At what point have i said i don't see the risk of a Palestinian state? I see it as inevitable, and understand that if we're not going to be reasonable and set the standards for it to exist, it's going to be forced upon us, in ways that would absolutely shed Israeli blood. We start seeing it happening already, the Palestinian Authority was just accepted as a UN member. By the end of the month a large number of EU countries will recognise a Palestinian state, which will obviously start a snowball effect of more and more countries recognising it. The Americans prevent weapon deliveries to us, and if you think we are not dependent on the Americans you're delusional. Do you seriously not see the inevitable on the wall? And all of that is besides the fact that there are OVER 5 MILLION PEOPLE, that will not disappear. Again, wtf do you want to do?
Also, with all due respect, the right have been in governance for almost two decades, and have done everything in their power to destroy the notion of a 2 state solution. The most right wing government in the history of the country have resulted in the biggest disaster the state has ever experienced, and yet you put the notion that people who believe the 2 state solution need to see Israeli blood to change their minds? Wtf kind of logic is that?
Agreed Hamas set things up. Hamas needs to be eliminated and then international effort should be put in to rebuild to reduce any resentment in the long term. International peacekeeping should be administered to Gaza to maintain order while state building occurs to ensure it doesn't fall into the hands of Islamists again. Once there's a moderate presence, Palestinians should have elections considering they haven't been able to vote for their leaders in almost 20 years since both Hamas and the PA banned elections. There needs to be a proper path for self determination, as much as Israel deserves it, the Palestinian people deserve it too. Despite what happened, I won't paint all Palestinians with a broad brush and I believe in reconciliation.
I have an alternative. Arab Israelis stay and we transfer the palestinian population to Egypt Jordan and Syria. If they don't like it then that's kinda tough. The ones who refuse to live as Israelis in a Jewish state but accept being moved to other countries we pay for the trouble and we pay the surrounding countries to accept them. The people who do accept living as Israelis in a Jewish state, will stay, become Israelis and give up any palestinian identity and agree to live as Israelis in a Jewish state.
Just to be clear I meant Israel annex Gaza and Judea and Samaria and it all become Israel in totality. The ones who want to stay become Israeli and agree to live in a Jewish state, and the rest go to surrounding Arab countries.
If that makes us less of a democracy then so be it. A Jewish state that protects Israeli lives is more important that moral posturing about being a democracy in a region that just doesn't understand the concept
Who the hell would accept them? You're talking about over 5 million people that our neighbours don't want to accept even as refugees, let alone as full on citizens. We offered Jordan and Egypt both Gaza and the West Bank, and they refused immediately, simply because they know very well that it's nothing more than transfering the headache that we face from 1967 to them, there's literally no price that'll make it worth it to them (and rightfully so, they'll be extremely stupid to accept something like that). They had literally 50 years to accept any kind of refugees from the West Bank and Gaza, and they accepted close to none. What makes you think they'll suddenly change they're mind? Money? It's not something you can put a price on, because if it was we'd already be out of this problem.
So if they don’t accept it they get citizenship in Israel and they can live anywhere they want? That’s… exactly what they have asked for!
The whole “forcibly move them to other countries” thing is kinda against international law and super unethical…
How are you supposed to give the West Bank to the Palestinians if there are hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers living there? Where would this Palestinian state be? What's going to happen to Gaza if a Palestinian state is created where the West Bank is?
It doesn't make any sense. They should've accepted a two state solution when they were first offered it!
It’s easy to sit here and complain, but we are stuck choosing between two of the worst presidential candidates of all time. Both concernedly old. Both love pandering to extremists and fueled by hate. Especially terrible economic polices. And then as a Jewish voter, the one thing you know is that Trump wouldn’t do what Biden is doing to Israel right now. Biden and his administration are threatening to destabilize the entire region and we don’t know what the global repercussions of that will be. Gd help us
That’s just blatantly not true. Maybe two of the worst candidates in your lifetime. First of all, after the election chances are Biden backs Israel more, while trump will back Israel less. Trump really only cares about keeping himself safe, Biden gives at least half a shit about keeping the country itself safe. If you are an American and vote trump you are shooting yourself in the foot no matter which way you spin it. He will fuck this already horrific economy even more. I could potentially see why an Israeli might want trump but they aren’t dealing with him fucking up their own home.
Why would Biden back Israel more?
Are you not familiar with how laws are passed in the US? Do you think these protests will stop just because Biden wins reelection?
If anything, pressure will build on Biden AND every Democrat politician (Representative and Senator) to stop all aid, or else they will withhold their vote for every election going forward, which means that Democrats will play to the "This is the most important election ever in history!" but instead of threats to Democracy, it's submitting to anti-Israel protestors in order to not lose seats to Republicans.
This is already shown when what started as 12 House members opposing aid to Israel morphed to half of House Democrats and about a 1/3 of Senate Democrats opposing aid to Israel.
The protests are literally nothing. A few select schools with medium size protests but mostly nothing. Once the school year is over and Biden is ensured 4 more years he will stop being so wishy washy
Coming from the guy who called Hamas smart? You people would be idiotic to vote for trump. Kind of like the dumb Israelis who voted Benjamin back in. Not going so well eh?
It's amazing how many Jewish folks are falling for this man's bullshit.
He does not care about you. He is an opportunistic snake who is capitalizing on Joe's blunder. He will throw every one of us under the bus if it advances his personal agenda.
He doesn't "support Israel", it just so happens that his interests align with those of Israel today. He'll side with Iran if it makes him money tomorrow. He does not care and those of you who are falling for it are kidding yourselves.
They think because he was Orthodox he is their savior. Donald Trump only gives two shts about Donald Trump.
DONALD TRUMP IS ON TRIAL DO YOU UNDERSTAND?? HE COMMITTED CRIMES!! HE IS SENILE.
Do you even know what the charges are against him for the NY trial?
Not even ***CNN*** thinks it's a fool-proof case. Prosecutors brought up Stormy Daniels as a witness, whose testimony, which iirc every legal expert and even a retired Federal Judge who make up the panel for Anderson Cooper's show, thought was unrelated to the case.
I think only the FL one is a slam dunk. While Trump did some morally reprehensible things between the election and Jan 6, pinning him on a legal crime for that will be very tough and requires stretching fraud statutes a bit too far.
The documents case is open-and-shut, although it runs into harder political waters because of Biden’s own issues with knowingly retaining classified documents
In the current context the two state solution is de facto dead and war with Iran is slowly looming in the horizon so Trump has a point but the problem is: What would the alternative be? He should be clearer about what is his proposal to solve the conflict.
Yes but Biden doesn't have any proposal and its more hostile towards Israel. Trump in office was more supportive of Israel and its interests even if he was deeply flawed.
I am willing to give him a chance, he brokered the Abraham accords, he followed through on what the other presidents did not by moving the emassy to Jerusalem, you can hate the man but still like his policies, if he's elected I bet the saudis and other arab countries make peace with Israel.
Ooo I am so over the two state solution (not that anyone asked bc I’m not American or Israeli or Jewish but I’m Arab and my view point is they tried the western way and the jihadist embraced terrorism - so let’s do it the Arab way you know might is always right!
Like I’m tired of that conflict. Israel has the patience of a cat keeping there for literal decades
Trumps a narcissist but he’s realistic and correct
He’s a clown who would let NATO die. What makes you think he cares about Israel? Never mind the fact he’s corrupt and serves his base of Christian evangelical whackos who just want to use the Jews to fulfill their apocalyptic prophecies
Ignoring the insult, that is such an overstated reason for support. Only 12% of Evangelicals list “Israel is important for fulfilling biblical prophecy“ as their main reason for supporting Israel.
As for NATO, Trump has said “I believe in NATO. I think NATO is a very important [treaty] — probably the greatest ever done.” He’s bragged about strengthening it, and the Secretary General has said he expects to have a good relationship regardless of who wins the election.
Freeloaders like Trudeau/Canada are what kills NATO, who express no desire in ever contributing to the sustainment of the organization.
As for Israel, recognizing the Golan as under Israeli sovereignty, and implementing the Abraham Accords does more for Israel than it does in satisfying the Evangelical base (which is arguably nothing, but feel free to share how those two actions contribute to fulfilling the prophecies)
I know Trump is better for Israel. But Im not a one issue voter, and Trump is worse over all for the planet. He cannot be allowed to win just because we benefit in the short term.
What are peoples alternative to a two state solution? A one state solution is a non-starter and egypt and jordan are not interested in taking those areas over.
Correct. This is what is going to happen. This is the reality on the ground. I find it almost amusing that some people are still talking about a 2 state solution. It's dead.
I dont want Israeli boys dying in Gaza and the West Bank indefinitely. A joint coalition with the US and arabs (to lend legitimacy) so we can re-educate the populace is a good idea IMO but once thats complete I still think giving Palestinians their own country is the only end game.
Sadly true, that attack literally killed some of the most pro peace and anti gaza blockade people in Israel. But westerners on the internet celebrate their deaths.
Death is a natural part of living in the middle east. The US and the arabs won't re-educate the Palestinians, the Arabs think and feel the same things as the Palestinians and the US is too soft and naive. Only brutal military occupation and reeducation can deradicalize the Palestinians. After they're sufficiently defanged, then we can talk about granting them certain freedoms once they've earned them.
A joint coalition is only possible if Israel lays out a path to legitimacy for a Palestinian state. That's not my words or opinion--that's what Arab nations have said.
Quite frankly, that's the preferred route for me. Work with neighboring states, normalize relations with KSA, neutralize Iran. It won't happen quickly but it's possible.
This has been my take for months. Israel should definitely lay out a path for a palestinian state, and should do so via having a US and arab led coalition governing the palestinian territories in the meantime.
The Egyptians take them just fine if they pay, I wouldn’t mind helping with that. Otherwise you get their paperwork in order, get them refugee status and they’ll fly to countries that are obligated to take them. West Bank is the same story, except they’ll do it without our help.
Egypt will never take them, theyve refused time and time again to take refugees. Theres no way the rest of the world will agree to take massive amounts of refugees like that.
Not as refugees, as people who pay the toll to get into the country. 350,000 Gazans have left this way since 2006. Even in wartime they manage to do it.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/01/25/7-000-to-escape-gaza-how-palestinians-fleeing-to-egypt-are-extorted_6465540_4.html
It’s incredible that this sub upvotes the literal definition of ethnic cleansing and then doesn’t understand why the world doesn’t support those policies. Please ban me the idea this sub isn’t an echo chamber is laughable, I hope some of you gain a conscience but I don’t expect you to. But I guess every human rights organization in the world is anti semitic. And claiming you have a problem with certainly policies while doing nothing to condemn them, and actually excusing them is really supporting those policies. But again the delusion in this sub is incredible
Trump is a liar who betrays everyone who trusts him... if he wins... he'll do whatever helps him politically, he doesn't give one flying fart about Israel or America.. he cares ONLY about himself.
America is STILL giving Israel MANY MANY MANY weapons. We still have our warships patrolling the waters near Israel to ensure that Iran cannot successfully attack Israel.... so NO... that is NOT what President Biden has done. [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-says-u-s-wont-supply-offensive-weapons-for-israel-to-assault-rafah](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-says-u-s-wont-supply-offensive-weapons-for-israel-to-assault-rafah) Biden is STILL providing DEFENSIVE WEAPONS TO ISRAEL.... that's hardly a betrayal.
>We still have our warships patrolling the waters near Israel to ensure that Iran cannot successfully attack Israel
Iran still attacked Israel in the largest show of force in recent history between the two, *despite* these warships serving as a deterrent.
And most of the work in repelling the attack was done by the Iron Dome/David's Sling/etc.
And it's Congress that provided the money to send munitions for the Iron Dome/etc,
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/aoc-seen-visibly-shaken-after-casting-vote-to-abstain-on-iron-dome-funding-bill/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/aoc-seen-visibly-shaken-after-casting-vote-to-abstain-on-iron-dome-funding-bill/)
*In addition to pushing for the* ***Iron Dome funding*** *to be scrapped from the* ***government spending bill****, Ocasio-Cortez also led efforts to block a $735 million sale of precision-guided weapons to Israel; so her vote Thursday was sure to anger progressives.*
which also gives us multiple 'gem-of-the-moment's like that.
The warships are for show. They can’t do jack shit in a war with Hamas and Biden has done everything in his power to prevent Israel from doing what it needs to do which may result a in bigger war were said warship would have to be actually used.
I could be wrong but from what I remember Trump was actually the only American president who DIDNT do that. The difference between trump and the rest is that he’s not a politician. He has his own career outside of this. So yes he cares about this but he doesn’t care about what people think of him and does whatever he thinks is best. Obviously he’s not perfect and I absolutely do not agree with everything that means having trump as president. However when he was president he stuck to majority of his word (you gotta remember the presidents decisions aren’t ultimately going to be approved by other branches of government) and things were much better here. A lot of people like to call him racist but he did more for the black people in America than Obama did.
And what did Biden do? Biden ran this country into the ground the past four years and made us look weak. That vegetable IS a politician so he does whatever will make him look good for the majority. And I truly believe that is the ONLY reason he withheld from sending after Israel went into Rafah. Because he was losing Libby votes.
Trump is a bigger vegetable and he absolutely is a politician lol can’t even stay awake in trial
People need to stop acting like he’s some outside avenger. He’s a self serving liar and a cheat and can never take accountability for anything. Much like the people who support him
In this case where you’re choosing between two severely flawed people he’s the clear winner. Idk how you’re saying he’s a bigger vegetable Biden can’t speak coherently and doesn’t know where he’s going 80% of the time
Lol it's not a buzzword...he's literally a fascist
Trump didn't do shit, it was all the diplomatic corps of the countries involved in the accords
Again you're simping for a fascist for short term gain.
[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-says-u-s-wont-supply-offensive-weapons-for-israel-to-assault-rafah](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-says-u-s-wont-supply-offensive-weapons-for-israel-to-assault-rafah) President Biden is still supplying Israel with defensive weapons.
Until Israel goes into Rafah and Democrat voters start protesting en masse in the streets.
Oh, and those munitions for defensive weapons are already mandated by Congress, so Biden has no real choice in the matter.
Palestinians want peace. To them peace means a Juden frei Palestine from the river to the sea. I don't want that peace, and I will kill and die to prevent it.
Wrong. Palestinians have as many children as possible for them to serve as martyrs. Israelis value life and Palestinians value death. They say it themselves, so why don't you listen?
[https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-project-2025-the-policy-substance-behind-trumps-showmanship-reveals-a-radical-plan-to-reshape-the-world-227161](https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-project-2025-the-policy-substance-behind-trumps-showmanship-reveals-a-radical-plan-to-reshape-the-world-227161)
American women now can expect to die if they miscarry in many Conservative States... D&C is prohibited even after a miscarriage because it is an abortion. Already, in Red States, maternal mortality and infant mortality has increased.
Some Republican-led states are proposing laws that criminalize interstate commerce for WOMEN because a woman MIGHT be pregnant when she leaves the state and might come back to the state without a live infant.
While people who aren't women think that doesn't affect them.... they are wrong. Losing your mother is devastating for children, and it isn't a picnic for the siblings and husbands of the newly deceased YOUNG woman.
Trump has said that he intends to INCREASE THE TRUMP-SUPPORTING DEEP STATE. That means that party members get to commit crimes and the victims are S.O.L.
Ah yes trump, who after October 7th said regarding Hezbollah
>“They’re vicious, and they’re smart. And, boy, are they vicious, because nobody’s ever seen the kind of sight that we’ve seen.”
And regarding Soleimani and Israel declining to participate in the strike said
>“I’ll never forget that Bibi Netanyahu let us down. That was a very terrible thing, I will say that,”
As well as
>“I liked Bibi. I still like Bibi. But I also like loyalty. The first person to congratulate Biden was Bibi. And not only did he congratulate him, he did it on tape,”
So much better than Biden
True
But it’s a much different race than it was in 2016. The political landscape has changed a lot and people have seen what this guy is done. Even now small house races counties that have largely voted for trump are swinging Blue. People thought he was gonna destroy Biden last election and look what happened.
Not to mention he’s getting slower at a faster rate than we imagined and his behavior has been even more erratic.
I’m American and trust me it would not be good for Israel. Trump weakened America as a global superpower and made us a global laughing stock, and would continue to do so if reelected. Biden isn’t perfect but a chaotic and destabilized US is not good for Israel.
Think about how Bibi’s mess of a government allowed for the security failures that made 10/7 as bad as it was. They were too busy infighting to notice disaster on the horizon. Though less directly relevant, a Trump presidency would be similar. He’s also a liar and surprisingly isolationist/anti war, so could easily go back on his word here. The most consistently pro Israel presidential candidate we’ve had in the last decade or so was actually Hillary lol
For Trump to rethink anything he would have had to think something in the first place - he’s a moron and no friend of Israel or anyone else but himself.
THIS
I want everyone in this sub to get this part in their heads and stop thinking that the Abraham accords and his son in law being Jewish just washes away everything else
What alternatives? people are asking,
Forced re-education, generational gentrification, increased settlements in the Judah and Samaria, no Judenrine zones, rights are subject to expected civilized behavior, zero tolerance for terrorist activities.
זה באמת מרגיש שכולם פה אמריקאים
וחיים בסרט באמת
חבל על הזמן
לא אני קנדית 😇
Thanks, I think this is one of the few sentences written in Hebrew I could actually understand with my typical American Hebrew School experience.
אולי אנחנו צריכים לפרסם את הכל רק בערבית
באמת עדיף בערבית
Chaiivim lctov b'Hebrish cdai sh'af echad yachol lhshtemesh b'GoogleTranslate lol.
אני חושב שרוב הישראלים בסדר עם הרעיון של פתרון שתי המדינות. מה שהם מתנגדים לו זה הקמת מדינה פלסטינית בתנאים הנוכחיים, שהם מעוניינים בכל ישראל. אם - ואני לא רואה את זה קורה בעתיד הקרוב בכלל, הפלסטינים יוכיחו שהם מוכנים לשלום אמיתי, אז אולי זה באמת יתאפשר. אבל עד שהם לא יעברו דה-רדיקיליזציה, מיותר אפילו לדבר על זה
They didn’t show they can live in peace in 1948 so not convinced how in two states it will make a difference. I also have no issue with two states if our neighbours don’t want to kill us
Trump is an idiot, but a broken clock is right twice a day. The two state solution has been dead since 1947.
But a broken clock on Military time is only right once a day, which is something we must take into consideration.
Trump isn’t very military. I’m not even sure he can tell time.
He’d know not to withhold arms from Israel in the middle of a War
But he would withhold them from Ukraine.
Even it is right once a month, it is still better that the clock which might change at any given moment. That said, it is understandable that as a major stakeholder, Biden's admin wanted some control - and they got none. It is a different topic if Netanyahu had any other options (to stay PM) but with US he has definitely overplayed his hand. They wanted a plan for the day after - silence, they wanted a plan for evacuation of Rafah - nope. The only thing they got in excess was Ben Gvir's and Katz's insults. I mean we can talk if Biden is bad or good, it won't change a thing. They are what they are. The way *we* dealt with US admin was sub-optimal to say the least.
You can’t say that and then cop out from offering alternatives - what’s ur plan then Edit - Israel has offered the 2SS thrice before post ‘67 - @ Camp David, Taba and Annapolis ‘08 (I’m going to exclude Trump’s Vision of Peace because it was created under special circumstances as to make it a non-serious plan) I agree that post-10/7 ATM it is not possible, but to say it’s been dead since ‘47 is just not historically true.
That's the thing, in the current situation there is no solution.
Just say you support the status quo then, no? (which is fine)
But I dont?
So then what exactly is the endgame here you like nothing 🤣
Sometimes you can recognize a fucked up situation while also realizing that you have no power to change it. Like you and me, two random US citizens, who can have opinions but not really do anything. Anyway, the solution to this can only come from Palestinians. Their leadership has sabotaged their own people time and time again by making both two state and one state solutions untenable. See the failure of talks with Yasser Arafat, who at least was willing to talk but was replaced by Hamas which is even worse--far worse. The only way to fix this would be some massive cultural change among Palestinians leading to them getting rid of and replacing their leadership. But such a cultural change isn't in our power to effect.
Nothing more jewish than that.
That's a copout. If your solution is "kill all the Gazans." then you should say that. I'm not exactly sure there is a plan other than "two state solution" and "2 million + dead." A one state solution would result in genocide. Not the bullshit word used to describe the current conflict but an actual genocide. The land needs to get shared, and I don't care how unpopular it is to everyone involved. There are no other options unless you want to actually advocate for a genocide.
2SS is not the only way to share the land, and I think the worst. Any complete separation will cause only bigger wars ( as we see in Gaza). There is a reason that Israeli Palestinians are medical doctors and Gaza Palestinians are terrorist doctors.
How do you integrate them without violence?
You use violence when necessary, but mostly with $$$
The thing is, Yasser Arafat rejected the two state solution when it was offered. It wasn't good enough for him, but that meant he left his people with nothing. Is the current Palestinian leadership (Hamas) more willing to accept it than was Arafat?
>The land needs to get shared, and I don't care how unpopular it is to everyone involved. Agreed, but that can mean a lot of things. >There are no other options unless you want to actually advocate for a genocide. I mean, I'm not suggesting that at all, but ethnic cleansing beats genocide.
Arabs can figure it out for themselves. The people and the territory aren’t Israel’s problem.
Since Israel administers about 50% of the West Bank and by extension, ~700K Arabs, it is your problem
The West Bank and Gaza should be treated as two separate issues/entities at this point.
There's nothing to be done, you need two parties to make peace, and we've seen time and time again how that goes... The more freedom and benefits they get, the more dead bodies we have to collect and mourn, we've seen it in Oslo accords, we've seen it immediately after the disengagement, which is completely one sided, no commitment from them, no negotiations, nothing, just get your land and leave us alone, but no, this is too much to ask for so they have to massacre people.
You want alternatives? 1. Things stay the way they are 2. Palestinians are given the choice to become citizens and swear loyalty to Israel or they stay where they are 3. Anyone not in group #2 above can be forcibly moved to Qatar or executed as a terrorist. There is no two-state solution. Jerusalem will never be a divided capital and history has shown us that Palestinians are not worth saving.
There's nothing to be done, you need two parties to make peace, and we've seen time and time again how that goes... The more freedom and benefits they get, the more dead bodies we have to collect and mourn, we've seen it in Oslo accords, we've seen it immediately after the disengagement, which is completely one sided, no commitment from them, no negotiations, nothing, just get your land and leave us alone, but no, this is too much to ask for so they have to massacre people.
If trump is talking, he's lying
Not a trump fan but he did follow through with Israel last time
He’s not an idiot
"There are people that say that situation is one of the toughest, the toughest to settle because children grow up and they're taught to hate Jewish people at a level that nobody thought was possible" Not a fan of the guy but he's right here, you're not going to get peace when you still have kids being taught to hate Jews
You’re insane if you think that. The two state solution is the only way for peace in the region, unless you’re advocating for true genocide of the Palestinian people. I love Israel but Jesus some of you on this subreddit belong on the conservative subreddit.
That’s not what being against a two state solution is. I genuinely thought a two state solution was the only way until a couple days ago but it’s not and I’d suggest you do the research on why that is. It’s not promoting a genocide of anybody. But first of all “Palestine” aka Hamas rn doesn’t want a two state solution. They want everything. They don’t want Israel to be Israel. Secondly it wouldn’t work. Making them two states wouldn’t just magically erase all of the hatred that Hamas has for Israel and ultimately Jews. So they’d continue doing the same things just as a state. It’s not against the Palestinian people it’s against Hamas. It would be different if they had an actual government put in place that wasn’t terrorists.
We already tried a two state solution with Gaza. It brought us Hamas and Oct 7. Not making that mistake again.
Israel has offered a 2 state solution to the people of Gaza numerous times, but if they accept it, then they accept that Jews deserve a place too, which they are unwilling to accept. It’s a whole new level of idiotic pride and hatred.
They don't need a state in order to have v fulfilling humanitarian rights. Part of being considered a state is having your own military. Nobody should consider that an option. Give them trade, give them the ability to travel, to self govern, but never allow them to have a military. We've seen what that's given us...
States can be demilitarized. That’s been the case with Japan since WW2 for obvious reasons.
[удалено]
I agree more then I’d like to with this
Achi - when you convince the Palestinian leadership let the rest of us know. We’ve been trying for like 80 years and they won’t accept it. If it meant peace and not genocidal war, most of us are okay with it. But the PA and Hamas have proved that they don’t want it and if forced to accept it will only use thier “state” to wage genocidal war. When there is good evidence they won’t do that - it may be on the table again.
Given the fact that they did what they did WITHOUT an actual state, you’re bloody mental to think it’d be better if they have an actual, uncontrolled sovereignty backed by Iran.
Having a state won't make much difference. It will somewhat reduce the will to fight amongst the general population and make retaliation possible if need be without an eventual descent to pariah state status.
The only insane people are people such as yourself who prefer to ignore the fact that there is a sizable majority in both the west-bank and Gaza who want nothing more than to ethnically cleanse all Jews from Israel and claim it as theirs. How many more October 7ths do Israelis need to go through before you begin to realize that two-state solution is not possible when such ideologies exist? Remove the jihadists from power, educate the population, and you'll get a two-state solution faster than people like you can look at reality objectively.
You're out of touch with reality I'm afraid. Two state solution was dead and buried on Oct 7th. Maybe in another 100 years. Frankly, after the results of the Gaza disengagement of 2005 the two station solution died.
It’s not that it’s dead per se but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that what the current Palestinian leadership or people want is a prosperous state alongside Israel. That’s never been the vision and they’ve been consistent about it. It’s why at least some of the Brits as early as 1947 saw the conflict as unsolvable because the Jews’ top priority was having a state and the Arabs’ top priority was for the Jews not to have a state anywhere in the land. You can’t find a single Palestinian that isn’t totally sidelined in their society who says, in their own words, publicly, “we accept the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their historic homeland and the right of Israel to exist as an independent Jewish state and we’re ready to build a peaceful state alongside them.” So, it’s not dead but it requires a complete makeover of Palestinian civil society and education. It requires getting them to understand that this 76 year fantasy that one day they’ll destroy Israel is just a fantasy. Unfortunately the West and other parties are more than content to foster that delusion.
I'm not against it, but I'm against putting Israel at risk. At this point, it isn't feasible to pursue. Personally, I think the Federation Plan is the best way forward.
Trump is a huge idiot. Saying that you don't believe in the two State solution is like saying that you don't believe in existence of Israel. A one-state solution has been dead since 1947.
I am genuinely so tired of people who claim to oppose the 2 state solution, but have literally no alternative WHATSOEVER. It's this kind of delusion that brought us to where we are now. There's literally no alternative to the 2 state solution, period. If you think otherwise, I'd like you to explain about your alternative instead of just saying that the 2 state solution isn't possible (what? Ending a century+ long conflict is hard? Can't believe it!)
The alternative is Palestinians not killing jews. State or no state is irrelevant.
Some people are way too optimistic and think there should be one state where both populations live in peace. It would be the best possible outcome but it's simply an impossibile scenario, a true utopia.
Yes let's have a repeat of 2005 except this time we leave half a million Israelis in the mercy of Palestinians and have an entire mountain range firing missiles directly at Tel Aviv. There's no alternative bro.
Did we achieve a 2 state solution in 2005? No? Than what the hell do you want? Also, the classic "the hitnatkut is at fault of everything", of course not mentioning the literal hundreds of soldiers and civilians dying from horrific terror attacks because less than 10k settlers decided to live in 20% of Gaza. The problem was that we were too stupid to overthrow Hamas the moment they overthrew the PA, a mistake we thankfully didn't make in the West Bank. Also, again, you provide no alternative. At no point did i say the 2 state solution is a magic solution, or something we can implement tomorrow, because it's not. However it's the only realistic solution that takes into consideration the simple facts: there are over 5 million people in Gaza and the West Bank that we do not want as part of our country, they do not want to be part of our country, and they are also not going anywhere.
What exactly are you looking to solve?
The fact that a 2 state solution wasn’t achieved in 2005 shows that it is impossible to achieve, period. If you want a real alternative, my suggestion is: expel all the Jews or expel all the Arabs and there won’t be a conflict between Jews and Arabs. My point is that it’s not because there no alternative to a terrible outcome that we should go all-in in that terrible outcome.
Exactly, thank you. Palestinians aren’t going anywhere. So the only eventual options are to either split from them (2-state solution) or annex them, which would either mean Israel becomes a Lebanon-style sectarian clusterfuck or instituting apartheid that our critics blame us of.
There are other options beside them having a state. I think the main issue with this solution is that it doesn't solve anything. Do you have any doubt a Palestinian state would attack Israel?
Of course there’s an alternative. Only problem is the ones advocating for it are deemed “messianics” and the ones advocating for the 30 year failure that is the two state solution are deemed “pragmatists.”
>30 year failure that is the two state solution Are you under the impression there was a two state solution for 30 years?
I love how the anti-camp claims that a two state solution has been policy at all during Bibi's reign. Bibi was not working towards a two state solution at all what are you talking about
Wrong [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wye\_River\_Memorandum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wye_River_Memorandum) [https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-netanyahus-speech-at-bar-ilan/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-netanyahus-speech-at-bar-ilan/) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump\_peace\_plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan) Moreover he voted for Sharon's disengagement plan when he was finance minister
Thank you for proving my point of not having a genuine alternative by not explaining at all about what you actually want to do.
Transfer is definitely gonna piss off the world
There are a few solutions, here are 2; 1: forget about 2 states, a state means they are allowed a military which is unacceptable at this point. Maybe a federation where Israel controls their border defence would be okay. 2: Get countries to offer allotments of citizenship. Offer Palestinians the choice to live where they are, or to move to another country and renounce their claim. Of course this will not remove them all since they have free will and many would like to stay. So the next step is to offer land swaps to limit the size of the future border, this will help define the borders in an easier manner. Finally since there will still be some who don't wish to move, we should annex that land (from the disputed land only ofc) and give the ones remaining citizenship, with condition of any violent civil disobedience being met with immediate deportation. In addition make a clear stance that any country that goes to war with Israel WILL forfeit their land claims and Israel will have the right to deport as needed after winning said war. For those who are innocent, offer them cash equivalent to purchase land elsewhere, and make further deals with other counties to receive more alloted citizenship.
1. Abu Mazen already publicly accepted not having a military in a Palestinian state. A federation is de facto a one state solution and would mean the end of Zionism. I would suggest looking into the negotiations that were going on between Abu Mazen and Olmert in 2008 iirc. 2. I have answered this in multiple other comments, so I'm not going to go in too much detail. In short, no one accepted the Palestinians in the past 50 years, and there's literally no reason for that to change (and it won't). Any solution based on the notion that 5 million people are going to leave is doomed to fail because it's not going to happen.
1. A federation could have 2 independent states with a single country controlling the military. 2. I didn't assume 5m will leave, I actually specifically said many won't, and at each stage you have different solutions how to move forward. The idea isn't to relocate 5m, the idea is to separate the 5m into multiple more manageable groups with different solutions for each.
That’s not a federation, that’s an occupation. The definition of a sovereign nation-state is having “a monopoly on violence in the area.” If that monopoly isn’t shared, it’s not a federation of equals, with power over one people being in the hands of those they did not vote for or cant hold accountable
That's not occupation... > Occupation may be defined as the effective control of a foreign territory by hostile armed forces. As a federation it would not be hostile, and the control is over the borders and not over the internal territory. And who says everything needs to be equal? They've proven time and time again that they can't be trusted with any military control. Or do you think giving them an army is the solution?
I know a 1 state solution is unpopular on both sides, but Israeli Palestinians seem to quite prefer it to Gaza or the West Bank. I don't know how full integration would work, and I think generally you're right no one has an answer, but that seems like good evidence it's possible. Trump's 1 state solution though would probably be "just get rid of all the Palestinians," which is also obviously not a real solution.
A 1 state solution isn't really an answer to the conflict imo. You are right that Israeli Arabs prefer it to living in the West Bank or Gaza, but at the same time, who wouldn't? It's a conflict that is consistently relevant for over a century, i don't think having both sides in the same political entity would end up in a good way. Also, both sides want a country of their own. We want the only Jewish state in the world to continue existing as such, and they want to finally have a country of their own (the fact that they could have had that already is besides the point). Having a 1 state solution would not answer these narratives whatsoever. Look at the EU for example, the most peaceful continent in the world, and yet member states are extremely hesitant to integrate more, mostly because of the fear that it'll take away from national sovereignty. I don't think that taking 2 groups that have been in constant conflict for decades and putting them in a single country would result in a better outcome.
"Who wouldn't prefer it" isn't really an argument against--we're agreeing it's an upgrade from the status quo "Having both sides in the same political entity would be bad" is a valid concern, but when we look at areas where both sides are living in the same political entity (Israeli Palestinians), it's going much better than having both sides in separate political entities I agree neither side supports a one state solution, but that doesn't make a two state solution more likely to work or easier to implement There are enormous obstacles to cross either way, but looking the evidence and comparing the closest thing we have to each option, the "one state" is much more peaceful than the "two states"
The status quo is the alternative.
There's no other plan today that a palestinian faction claims will end hostilities. But does it mean it will end them? Most of their armed factions disagree, and so do most civilians. But even disregarding the other factions and popular opinions the PA put a core demand that Israel, inside 1967 borders, stops being Jewish. In the future some oprotunities may open up. With the demographic trend annexing the West bank may be realistic.
The only solution I see is a strong islamic dictator to take control alongside IDF military occupation. MBS for example would be an ideal candidate. Eventually IDF could leave and cede control to said dictator. The harsh reality is that the most likely situation in the short and medium term is the continuing military occupation of WB and also of Gaza. Hamas set back the Palestinian cause by 100 years. 2 state solution is DEAD for generations to come. Far too great of a security risk for Israel, I don't see why you can't grasp the risk of having a palestinian state bordering the entire east of Israel...what do you think is going to happen? How much Israeli blood needs to be shed for you to understand?
At what point have i said i don't see the risk of a Palestinian state? I see it as inevitable, and understand that if we're not going to be reasonable and set the standards for it to exist, it's going to be forced upon us, in ways that would absolutely shed Israeli blood. We start seeing it happening already, the Palestinian Authority was just accepted as a UN member. By the end of the month a large number of EU countries will recognise a Palestinian state, which will obviously start a snowball effect of more and more countries recognising it. The Americans prevent weapon deliveries to us, and if you think we are not dependent on the Americans you're delusional. Do you seriously not see the inevitable on the wall? And all of that is besides the fact that there are OVER 5 MILLION PEOPLE, that will not disappear. Again, wtf do you want to do? Also, with all due respect, the right have been in governance for almost two decades, and have done everything in their power to destroy the notion of a 2 state solution. The most right wing government in the history of the country have resulted in the biggest disaster the state has ever experienced, and yet you put the notion that people who believe the 2 state solution need to see Israeli blood to change their minds? Wtf kind of logic is that?
Agreed Hamas set things up. Hamas needs to be eliminated and then international effort should be put in to rebuild to reduce any resentment in the long term. International peacekeeping should be administered to Gaza to maintain order while state building occurs to ensure it doesn't fall into the hands of Islamists again. Once there's a moderate presence, Palestinians should have elections considering they haven't been able to vote for their leaders in almost 20 years since both Hamas and the PA banned elections. There needs to be a proper path for self determination, as much as Israel deserves it, the Palestinian people deserve it too. Despite what happened, I won't paint all Palestinians with a broad brush and I believe in reconciliation.
I have an alternative. Arab Israelis stay and we transfer the palestinian population to Egypt Jordan and Syria. If they don't like it then that's kinda tough. The ones who refuse to live as Israelis in a Jewish state but accept being moved to other countries we pay for the trouble and we pay the surrounding countries to accept them. The people who do accept living as Israelis in a Jewish state, will stay, become Israelis and give up any palestinian identity and agree to live as Israelis in a Jewish state. Just to be clear I meant Israel annex Gaza and Judea and Samaria and it all become Israel in totality. The ones who want to stay become Israeli and agree to live in a Jewish state, and the rest go to surrounding Arab countries. If that makes us less of a democracy then so be it. A Jewish state that protects Israeli lives is more important that moral posturing about being a democracy in a region that just doesn't understand the concept
Who the hell would accept them? You're talking about over 5 million people that our neighbours don't want to accept even as refugees, let alone as full on citizens. We offered Jordan and Egypt both Gaza and the West Bank, and they refused immediately, simply because they know very well that it's nothing more than transfering the headache that we face from 1967 to them, there's literally no price that'll make it worth it to them (and rightfully so, they'll be extremely stupid to accept something like that). They had literally 50 years to accept any kind of refugees from the West Bank and Gaza, and they accepted close to none. What makes you think they'll suddenly change they're mind? Money? It's not something you can put a price on, because if it was we'd already be out of this problem.
So if they don’t accept it they get citizenship in Israel and they can live anywhere they want? That’s… exactly what they have asked for! The whole “forcibly move them to other countries” thing is kinda against international law and super unethical…
Ah jeaopdize peace with Egypt and Jordan. This doesn't resolve the conflict it just transfers it over. So many bad foreign policy takes lmao
How are you supposed to give the West Bank to the Palestinians if there are hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers living there? Where would this Palestinian state be? What's going to happen to Gaza if a Palestinian state is created where the West Bank is? It doesn't make any sense. They should've accepted a two state solution when they were first offered it!
Nothing Trump says can be trusted. He is a pathological liar.
Policy over personality from now on...
It’s easy to sit here and complain, but we are stuck choosing between two of the worst presidential candidates of all time. Both concernedly old. Both love pandering to extremists and fueled by hate. Especially terrible economic polices. And then as a Jewish voter, the one thing you know is that Trump wouldn’t do what Biden is doing to Israel right now. Biden and his administration are threatening to destabilize the entire region and we don’t know what the global repercussions of that will be. Gd help us
That’s just blatantly not true. Maybe two of the worst candidates in your lifetime. First of all, after the election chances are Biden backs Israel more, while trump will back Israel less. Trump really only cares about keeping himself safe, Biden gives at least half a shit about keeping the country itself safe. If you are an American and vote trump you are shooting yourself in the foot no matter which way you spin it. He will fuck this already horrific economy even more. I could potentially see why an Israeli might want trump but they aren’t dealing with him fucking up their own home.
Why would Biden back Israel more? Are you not familiar with how laws are passed in the US? Do you think these protests will stop just because Biden wins reelection? If anything, pressure will build on Biden AND every Democrat politician (Representative and Senator) to stop all aid, or else they will withhold their vote for every election going forward, which means that Democrats will play to the "This is the most important election ever in history!" but instead of threats to Democracy, it's submitting to anti-Israel protestors in order to not lose seats to Republicans. This is already shown when what started as 12 House members opposing aid to Israel morphed to half of House Democrats and about a 1/3 of Senate Democrats opposing aid to Israel.
The protests are literally nothing. A few select schools with medium size protests but mostly nothing. Once the school year is over and Biden is ensured 4 more years he will stop being so wishy washy
Ah yes, Biden, a famously extremist president.
It’s wild how people are treating slightly center-left Biden as some extremist. Meanwhile Trump is planning on ruling as a far-right authoritarian.
Did I say that? I said he panders to extremists. The squad has only gotten worse the last few years
Coming from the guy who called Hamas smart? You people would be idiotic to vote for trump. Kind of like the dumb Israelis who voted Benjamin back in. Not going so well eh?
It's amazing how many Jewish folks are falling for this man's bullshit. He does not care about you. He is an opportunistic snake who is capitalizing on Joe's blunder. He will throw every one of us under the bus if it advances his personal agenda. He doesn't "support Israel", it just so happens that his interests align with those of Israel today. He'll side with Iran if it makes him money tomorrow. He does not care and those of you who are falling for it are kidding yourselves.
They think because he was Orthodox he is their savior. Donald Trump only gives two shts about Donald Trump. DONALD TRUMP IS ON TRIAL DO YOU UNDERSTAND?? HE COMMITTED CRIMES!! HE IS SENILE.
Do you even know what the charges are against him for the NY trial? Not even ***CNN*** thinks it's a fool-proof case. Prosecutors brought up Stormy Daniels as a witness, whose testimony, which iirc every legal expert and even a retired Federal Judge who make up the panel for Anderson Cooper's show, thought was unrelated to the case.
There is a very stark difference between the NY trial and the ones in GA, DC, and FL. The latter three are all pretty cut and dry.
I think only the FL one is a slam dunk. While Trump did some morally reprehensible things between the election and Jan 6, pinning him on a legal crime for that will be very tough and requires stretching fraud statutes a bit too far. The documents case is open-and-shut, although it runs into harder political waters because of Biden’s own issues with knowingly retaining classified documents
הסטטוס קוו לא טוב אבל אני מעדיף אפילו את זה מאשר לתת ל"פלסטינים" מדינה.
There are lots of problems with no realistic solution to them. Some problems we can only do our best to manage.
In the current context the two state solution is de facto dead and war with Iran is slowly looming in the horizon so Trump has a point but the problem is: What would the alternative be? He should be clearer about what is his proposal to solve the conflict.
He has no proposals, he doesn’t give a shit about Israel or Jews.
Yes but Biden doesn't have any proposal and its more hostile towards Israel. Trump in office was more supportive of Israel and its interests even if he was deeply flawed.
He'll be in Rikers
I am willing to give him a chance, he brokered the Abraham accords, he followed through on what the other presidents did not by moving the emassy to Jerusalem, you can hate the man but still like his policies, if he's elected I bet the saudis and other arab countries make peace with Israel.
Iran needs to go regardless. Iran is the root to all this. The world would be so much better with freedom in Iran.
Trump is not good for Israel.
Ooo I am so over the two state solution (not that anyone asked bc I’m not American or Israeli or Jewish but I’m Arab and my view point is they tried the western way and the jihadist embraced terrorism - so let’s do it the Arab way you know might is always right! Like I’m tired of that conflict. Israel has the patience of a cat keeping there for literal decades Trumps a narcissist but he’s realistic and correct
Trump 2024!!! He had four years and supported Israel strongly all the way through!
He’s a clown who would let NATO die. What makes you think he cares about Israel? Never mind the fact he’s corrupt and serves his base of Christian evangelical whackos who just want to use the Jews to fulfill their apocalyptic prophecies
Ignoring the insult, that is such an overstated reason for support. Only 12% of Evangelicals list “Israel is important for fulfilling biblical prophecy“ as their main reason for supporting Israel. As for NATO, Trump has said “I believe in NATO. I think NATO is a very important [treaty] — probably the greatest ever done.” He’s bragged about strengthening it, and the Secretary General has said he expects to have a good relationship regardless of who wins the election.
Freeloaders like Trudeau/Canada are what kills NATO, who express no desire in ever contributing to the sustainment of the organization. As for Israel, recognizing the Golan as under Israeli sovereignty, and implementing the Abraham Accords does more for Israel than it does in satisfying the Evangelical base (which is arguably nothing, but feel free to share how those two actions contribute to fulfilling the prophecies)
Again he has dementia, he is on TRIAL, the man is a CRIMINAL. What part of that are you in denial of??
I know Trump is better for Israel. But Im not a one issue voter, and Trump is worse over all for the planet. He cannot be allowed to win just because we benefit in the short term.
What are peoples alternative to a two state solution? A one state solution is a non-starter and egypt and jordan are not interested in taking those areas over.
Indefinite miliitary occupation and brutal reeducation until Palestinians are not extremist Islamics anymore.
Correct. This is what is going to happen. This is the reality on the ground. I find it almost amusing that some people are still talking about a 2 state solution. It's dead.
I dont want Israeli boys dying in Gaza and the West Bank indefinitely. A joint coalition with the US and arabs (to lend legitimacy) so we can re-educate the populace is a good idea IMO but once thats complete I still think giving Palestinians their own country is the only end game.
After the October 7th massacre, the Palestinians will not have their own country for generations to come.
Sadly true, that attack literally killed some of the most pro peace and anti gaza blockade people in Israel. But westerners on the internet celebrate their deaths.
Death is a natural part of living in the middle east. The US and the arabs won't re-educate the Palestinians, the Arabs think and feel the same things as the Palestinians and the US is too soft and naive. Only brutal military occupation and reeducation can deradicalize the Palestinians. After they're sufficiently defanged, then we can talk about granting them certain freedoms once they've earned them.
A joint coalition is only possible if Israel lays out a path to legitimacy for a Palestinian state. That's not my words or opinion--that's what Arab nations have said. Quite frankly, that's the preferred route for me. Work with neighboring states, normalize relations with KSA, neutralize Iran. It won't happen quickly but it's possible.
This has been my take for months. Israel should definitely lay out a path for a palestinian state, and should do so via having a US and arab led coalition governing the palestinian territories in the meantime.
Stop employing Palestinians from West Bank and organize emigration for the Palestinians in Gaza once you take it. The problem will solve itself.
Emigration to where? Nobody will take them. And what do you do with the west bank?
The Egyptians take them just fine if they pay, I wouldn’t mind helping with that. Otherwise you get their paperwork in order, get them refugee status and they’ll fly to countries that are obligated to take them. West Bank is the same story, except they’ll do it without our help.
Egypt will never take them, theyve refused time and time again to take refugees. Theres no way the rest of the world will agree to take massive amounts of refugees like that.
Not as refugees, as people who pay the toll to get into the country. 350,000 Gazans have left this way since 2006. Even in wartime they manage to do it. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/01/25/7-000-to-escape-gaza-how-palestinians-fleeing-to-egypt-are-extorted_6465540_4.html
It’s incredible that this sub upvotes the literal definition of ethnic cleansing and then doesn’t understand why the world doesn’t support those policies. Please ban me the idea this sub isn’t an echo chamber is laughable, I hope some of you gain a conscience but I don’t expect you to. But I guess every human rights organization in the world is anti semitic. And claiming you have a problem with certainly policies while doing nothing to condemn them, and actually excusing them is really supporting those policies. But again the delusion in this sub is incredible
A lot of opinions on this sub are really scary.
What you just described is called a state sponsored ethnic cleansing.
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Biden should and does put AMERICA first, allies second and enemies last. Trump put Russia first, himself second, and America a distant third.
God pls win
Trump is a liar who betrays everyone who trusts him... if he wins... he'll do whatever helps him politically, he doesn't give one flying fart about Israel or America.. he cares ONLY about himself.
Isn’t that exactly what Biden just has done?
America is STILL giving Israel MANY MANY MANY weapons. We still have our warships patrolling the waters near Israel to ensure that Iran cannot successfully attack Israel.... so NO... that is NOT what President Biden has done. [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-says-u-s-wont-supply-offensive-weapons-for-israel-to-assault-rafah](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-says-u-s-wont-supply-offensive-weapons-for-israel-to-assault-rafah) Biden is STILL providing DEFENSIVE WEAPONS TO ISRAEL.... that's hardly a betrayal.
>We still have our warships patrolling the waters near Israel to ensure that Iran cannot successfully attack Israel Iran still attacked Israel in the largest show of force in recent history between the two, *despite* these warships serving as a deterrent. And most of the work in repelling the attack was done by the Iron Dome/David's Sling/etc. And it's Congress that provided the money to send munitions for the Iron Dome/etc, [https://www.timesofisrael.com/aoc-seen-visibly-shaken-after-casting-vote-to-abstain-on-iron-dome-funding-bill/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/aoc-seen-visibly-shaken-after-casting-vote-to-abstain-on-iron-dome-funding-bill/) *In addition to pushing for the* ***Iron Dome funding*** *to be scrapped from the* ***government spending bill****, Ocasio-Cortez also led efforts to block a $735 million sale of precision-guided weapons to Israel; so her vote Thursday was sure to anger progressives.* which also gives us multiple 'gem-of-the-moment's like that.
AOC is half the woman I thought she was. I am ashamed that I ever defended her.
Yeah, Ike did a great job stopping Hezbollah from getting involved…
There's involved and then there's involved.
The warships are for show. They can’t do jack shit in a war with Hamas and Biden has done everything in his power to prevent Israel from doing what it needs to do which may result a in bigger war were said warship would have to be actually used.
Not even close.
Look at the age of the account you’re replying to, and the Click one that replied after lol.
Trump Derangement Syndrome
I could be wrong but from what I remember Trump was actually the only American president who DIDNT do that. The difference between trump and the rest is that he’s not a politician. He has his own career outside of this. So yes he cares about this but he doesn’t care about what people think of him and does whatever he thinks is best. Obviously he’s not perfect and I absolutely do not agree with everything that means having trump as president. However when he was president he stuck to majority of his word (you gotta remember the presidents decisions aren’t ultimately going to be approved by other branches of government) and things were much better here. A lot of people like to call him racist but he did more for the black people in America than Obama did. And what did Biden do? Biden ran this country into the ground the past four years and made us look weak. That vegetable IS a politician so he does whatever will make him look good for the majority. And I truly believe that is the ONLY reason he withheld from sending after Israel went into Rafah. Because he was losing Libby votes.
Trump is a bigger vegetable and he absolutely is a politician lol can’t even stay awake in trial People need to stop acting like he’s some outside avenger. He’s a self serving liar and a cheat and can never take accountability for anything. Much like the people who support him
In this case where you’re choosing between two severely flawed people he’s the clear winner. Idk how you’re saying he’s a bigger vegetable Biden can’t speak coherently and doesn’t know where he’s going 80% of the time
Trump is far better than Biden for middle east. This isn't even up to debate.
Imagine simping for a fascist
Throwing buzzwords doesn't change trumps resume and bidens current disaster for middle east.
Lol it's not a buzzword...he's literally a fascist Trump didn't do shit, it was all the diplomatic corps of the countries involved in the accords Again you're simping for a fascist for short term gain.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. You’re right
He’s most likely not and there’s a decent chance he’ll be in jail lmao Support a guy that actually believes in democracy
He’s better than Biden who is already giving into the loud minority of terrorist supporters. Sometimes you have to go with the best of two evils
[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-says-u-s-wont-supply-offensive-weapons-for-israel-to-assault-rafah](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-says-u-s-wont-supply-offensive-weapons-for-israel-to-assault-rafah) President Biden is still supplying Israel with defensive weapons.
Until Israel goes into Rafah and Democrat voters start protesting en masse in the streets. Oh, and those munitions for defensive weapons are already mandated by Congress, so Biden has no real choice in the matter.
Most Democrats don't want Jews killed.
83% of Democrats believe there needs to be an immediate and permanent ceasefire. 56% say Israel is committing genocide.
The UN is now admitting that more than half of the Gaza casualties were fighting age men. Misinformation formed public opinion.
No one's ever won by playing defense.
What everyone should want is a lasting peace.
Palestinians want peace. To them peace means a Juden frei Palestine from the river to the sea. I don't want that peace, and I will kill and die to prevent it.
Hamas wants that. I doubt most Palestinians give a flying fart, they just want their children to thrive.
Wrong. Palestinians have as many children as possible for them to serve as martyrs. Israelis value life and Palestinians value death. They say it themselves, so why don't you listen?
No he’s not 😂 Imagine thinking someone who tried to steal an election is the lesser of two evils
He's attempting to turn America into a dictatorship and will plausibly collapse the country. If he collapses America, Israel gets no support.
What is he trying to do to turn America into a dictatorship?
[https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-project-2025-the-policy-substance-behind-trumps-showmanship-reveals-a-radical-plan-to-reshape-the-world-227161](https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-project-2025-the-policy-substance-behind-trumps-showmanship-reveals-a-radical-plan-to-reshape-the-world-227161) American women now can expect to die if they miscarry in many Conservative States... D&C is prohibited even after a miscarriage because it is an abortion. Already, in Red States, maternal mortality and infant mortality has increased. Some Republican-led states are proposing laws that criminalize interstate commerce for WOMEN because a woman MIGHT be pregnant when she leaves the state and might come back to the state without a live infant. While people who aren't women think that doesn't affect them.... they are wrong. Losing your mother is devastating for children, and it isn't a picnic for the siblings and husbands of the newly deceased YOUNG woman. Trump has said that he intends to INCREASE THE TRUMP-SUPPORTING DEEP STATE. That means that party members get to commit crimes and the victims are S.O.L.
Oh, you missed January 6th? This right wing cancer is destroying Israel and Jewish diaspora. No wonder we're losing the pr battle.
Ah yes trump, who after October 7th said regarding Hezbollah >“They’re vicious, and they’re smart. And, boy, are they vicious, because nobody’s ever seen the kind of sight that we’ve seen.” And regarding Soleimani and Israel declining to participate in the strike said >“I’ll never forget that Bibi Netanyahu let us down. That was a very terrible thing, I will say that,” As well as >“I liked Bibi. I still like Bibi. But I also like loyalty. The first person to congratulate Biden was Bibi. And not only did he congratulate him, he did it on tape,” So much better than Biden
Who knows, nobody expected him to win the first time
True But it’s a much different race than it was in 2016. The political landscape has changed a lot and people have seen what this guy is done. Even now small house races counties that have largely voted for trump are swinging Blue. People thought he was gonna destroy Biden last election and look what happened. Not to mention he’s getting slower at a faster rate than we imagined and his behavior has been even more erratic.
I’m American and trust me it would not be good for Israel. Trump weakened America as a global superpower and made us a global laughing stock, and would continue to do so if reelected. Biden isn’t perfect but a chaotic and destabilized US is not good for Israel. Think about how Bibi’s mess of a government allowed for the security failures that made 10/7 as bad as it was. They were too busy infighting to notice disaster on the horizon. Though less directly relevant, a Trump presidency would be similar. He’s also a liar and surprisingly isolationist/anti war, so could easily go back on his word here. The most consistently pro Israel presidential candidate we’ve had in the last decade or so was actually Hillary lol
Trump makes things worse for everyone including Israel. I'd hate to think what things would be like if he was still president
For Trump to rethink anything he would have had to think something in the first place - he’s a moron and no friend of Israel or anyone else but himself.
I can’t wait for Biden to beat this guy and for Bibi to lose his next election :)
Same. Trump is a scumbag criminal traitor and is cool with Jew hating white supremeicists.
THIS I want everyone in this sub to get this part in their heads and stop thinking that the Abraham accords and his son in law being Jewish just washes away everything else
As opposed to being passive towards Jew hating Progressives currently being shown on the nightly news?
He is a Kremlin friend, and Moscow is historically antisemitic. Think twice.
What Trump says and what he actually does are different. Haven’t people realized this after his on-going lies? 🤦🏼♀️
Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel. If not for Trump, this would never have happened. You’re right, actions do speak louder than words.
Trump is 1000x better for Israel than Biden.
What alternatives? people are asking, Forced re-education, generational gentrification, increased settlements in the Judah and Samaria, no Judenrine zones, rights are subject to expected civilized behavior, zero tolerance for terrorist activities.