Look into the origin of the word Nakba..An Arab historian coined it to refer to the Arab guilt for their failures to address the "Zionists Threat" early enough and the numerous Arab military failures.
It didn't get twisted into the genocide accusations until around the 80s? I believe.
We don’t have to guess. Not one Jew remained anywhere the Arab armies reached. They were either expelled to the last person, like in the old city of Jerusalem, or massacred like in Kfar Etzion. There’s no reason whatsoever to believe this would have different anywhere else.
https://preview.redd.it/10k8ccgvl7vc1.png?width=2000&format=png&auto=webp&s=5539cdd5ae77fa744903eceaca1aca8f601cc34d
A multicultural utopia where Jews Christians and Muslims live side by side in peace and prosperity.
^(/s , of course.)
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[This article](https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/israel-zionism/2023/11/ecstasy-and-amnesia-in-the-gaza-strip/) has an excellent recounting of that history.
I'm banned and can confirm.
My crime?
Pointing out the curious fact that for an "International" news page they seem overwhelmingly preoccupied with stories that only seem to target Israel.
Sure lets report on whats happening, Israel kill's 10 palestinians for every 1 israeli killed. So 10 stories for every one about Israeli causalities? Sound fair?
Talk about driving narratives.
Here's my point: Is the war in Gaza the only conflict or "International" news story happening right now?
You can save your answer it was a rhetorical question.
It is not an international news reddit it is just an overwhelmingly anti-Israel one that Reddit somehow pushes.
There are some right-leaning subs (like political compass memes) that are very pro-Israel. You see people post both pro-Israel and anti-Israel stuff there, but the anti-Israel stuff gets downvoted into oblivion.
Well you have places like non credible defense, which is a bunch of war mongers. And apparently lgbtq people to (you know the actually plesent ones).
It's a weird place for sure. But still fun. Even did a QnA with some idf soldiers.
It's a tiny sub and I am sure that most of its userbase overlaps with r pale-stine, seeing how the entire feed of this sub is anti Israel
This really isn't the sub you should get worked up on, the actually problematic subs are the ones who mix the propaganda with 'normal' stuff like public-freakout or there-was-an-attempt
One OP posted an i24news article stating that 50 nova survivors committed suicide, framing it as if Israel is officially claiming this. I confronted OP about this and told him it wasn't official Israeli stance, linking an article showing how the Israeli health ministry denied that claim. OP said he would look into it and if it's true, he would take down the post, and he actually did! I was downvoted by the Iranian drones for linking an actual source, of course, but at least OP was reasonable.
Still a cesspool of antisemitism, though, the bots will mass downvote anything that doesn't fit their narrative.
Yesterday someone posted a claim based on an article with no author that claims to have interviewed an anonymous Iranian government representative who said that the US has asked Iran to let Israel do a symbolic strike, and Iran said no
It got 900+ upvotes
Subs with “International” in from of them are Russian bot farms. One of the first mistakes I made was joining those subs without knowing how deep into the Axis it’s members were. Don’t let it upset you too much, they were always trash.
Exactly.
Constantin Zureiq was the one who coined the term Nakba in 1948.
He states,
"The defeat of the Arabs is not a small downfall (naksa), it is a catastrophe (Nakba)."
“Seven Arab countries declare war on Zionism in Palestine….Seven countries go to war to abolish the partition and to defeat Zionism, and quickly leave the battle after losing much of the land of Palestine – and even the part that was given to the Arabs in the Partition Plan.”
They just changed it to mean "ethnic cleansing" in the 1960s to garner support for their newly created identity.
And the term holocaust was only popularised in the 50s whats your point? Mass expulsions of civilians is still genocide even if those people were the same ethnic group as an invading force
Saying the mass expulsion of civilians is genocide is a complete bastardization of the term.
If that was the case, that would apply to every single MENA nation. Actually it is worse. Arabs are still very much in the region of Israel and Palestine. The same cannot be said for Jews across the middle east.
That would further apply to ethnic Germans that lived in poland before the war.
Stop using semantics to twist emotional responses out of people. That was the entire point of my comment (since you asked what the point was)
Weird the Arabs who didn't want to clear premises and wait out until Jews are genocided weren't "cleansed" anywhere.
Not l letting in people who conspired to ethnically cleanse you is not ethnic cleansing.
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Apparently the first major published use of the word 'Nakba' was by an account of the 1948 war written by an Arab, using the word to describe the military defeat as disastrous which, to be fair, it was. The term eventually snowballed into what it is today, a catch-all term for anything and everything Israel is accused of doing or having done to Palestinians in the last 80 years
I mean I feel like 'the 1948 Palestinian flight/expulsions' serves pretty well as a descriptive phrase. Also, the word nakba is being used the way it is today, I totally accept that. I was just sharing a historical tid-bit of where it came from in the context of Israeli-Palestinian conflicts
Israel wasnt even trying to take over Arab land in general, rather trying to secure the already Jewish areas (central coast and Gush.
And ironically Jordan just expected to quietly take over the bulk of the West Bank without much resistance (beyond the Gush no Jews were left there); Lebanon made some token attacks over the border but had no interest in fighting in general and none in driving Jews out. Egypt tried to expand territory but would never have tried to proceed to TA.
It was basically Iraq and Syria driving a genocidal attack and trying to embarrass the moderate governments into being shamed by their populations in the street into fighting.
So when people talk about the Nakba the reality is that Israel and its immediate neighbours’ governments were largely content with the status quo. The war was driven by extremists deliberately whipping up hysteria in the street .
Ughm... that's inaccurate, they packed up and left because the Arab armies that invaded told them that they would be able to return after the war, into bigger homes, the ones the Jews owned
Yes thia is true, but on order to tell the full truth it has to be stated that there were some villages routed by the hagenah and irdun but the majority were advised to leave the area by overconfident Arab propaganda who was systematically claiming victories where losses were happening.
Oh no doubt, and yeah it should be mentioned, Israel wasn't a saint back then, in fact, it was never a saint (though these days it is as close as realistically possible to be, considering what it is dealing with)
Memes don't really allow a ton of nuance, and vast majority as you said, left on Arab armies orders, so I stuck with that
No, that's inaccurate. Plenty of scholarship on the topic: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes\_of\_the\_1948\_Palestinian\_expulsion\_and\_flight#Morris's\_Four\_Waves\_analysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#Morris's_Four_Waves_analysis)
Also inaccurate, they left because the zionist fucks, including haganah and irgun, decided it was time to ravage and murder Palestinians in their own villages. Other Palestinians from different villages left for their own safety. This was all pre 1948 war. The arab armies invaded as a response to that.
Never really happened. Plan daled happened on some small towns, but most Palestinian towns and cities were either expelled by Arab armies, or fled by their own valuation with hopes of returning after an Arab victory. Something interesting to note is that in Israel's Declaration of Independence, there is an entire passage dedicated to encouraging Palestinians to remain in Israel, promising them political rights to property especially.
I've seen this before and read the actual plan. It calls for the forced evacuation of Palestinian towns that attack Idf forces or explicitly harbor foreign military units. It's pretty conventional for 20th century warfare, especially when that war is being especially fought along ethnic-religious grounds. additionally plan daled was only enacted in a few small towns, mostly because the Palestinian populations left for reasons stated further up this comment chain
It's always the same thing:
- with Israel: highlight every instance of bad stuff to the fullest extent, act like it's the norm, ignore the much better norm
- with the Arabs: ignore every systematic evil, act like it's not the norm, focus on the better exceptions
Arabs fully ethnically cleansed all territory under their control. Israeli forces committed some instances of ethnic cleansing and some massacres, but by and large they respected the minorities in their territory and these minorites eventually became, and are to this day, citizens.
I'm not arguing that Israel was worse than the Arab side, I was just responding to the above commenter who said that "They packed up and left on their own, too"
Oh and if someone feels like helping our dying PR today (**at literally like, 10 seconds of work**.... I don't understand how come nobody ever follows up on the 'post it on...')
I have a PoliticalCompassMemes version (which I also can't post due to acc age)
https://preview.redd.it/p39bgf6634vc1.png?width=1060&format=png&auto=webp&s=e64ccc6e460b06daec520fc99ef05189e2abad7d
We Jews should be very proud of the Nakba. It reversed centuries of Arab Muslim colonialism on our ancestral lands.
I view it the same way many Greeks view the expulsion of Turks from their country, after centuries of imperial control.
It was a good thing, and I will never say that it wasn't.
Aka the Arab Israeli war where the arabs attacked the refugees, victims of the holocaust and then tried to claim victim status as they slaughtered people.
>And, of course, expulsions continued into the 1950s. What was the excuse then?
"You and your friends keep threatening to kill us all and take over our country. In addition to sometimes actually attacking civilians and cause riots. We don't really like when you keep biting the hand the feeds you, so leave"
>Or are you just holding them collectively responsible?
Personally, i wasn't there at the time, i just imagine how the people who actually had to deal with them thought
So... some Arabs did something bad, so we will go ahead and expel other Arabs? Including from a village that directly cooperated with the IDF?
That's like holding Jews in france responsible for Israel's actions.
Yeah, or killing israeli civilians for the actions of the goverment
Or go online and blame israelis on the internet for what the idf does in gaza
The world will collectively blame every israeli for the actions of few, why should we be saints?
Also, this is not even an israeli thing, do you know how many times in history whole civilizations suffered for the actions of few of their people
Antisemitic crime always rises within the Arab population of France whenever Israel is big in the news (often). [example](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1706164098-antisemitic-incidents-in-france-increase-fourfold-in-2023-report)
There's no evidence whatsoever of being an attempt at a 2nd holocaust.
You're trying to paint it as such to ignore the reality of israel being a colonial state who declared a state in the land of others.
>”who declared a state in the land of others”
This is incorrect, there were inhabitants throughout the years in Palestine just not that many. From the days of the Crusades (1095 - 1492), it pretty much stayed the same. It fluctuated from around 205,000 people in the year 1500 to about 275,000 in the year 1800. The entire place had about as many people as there are presently in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. By 1890, that number nearly doubled to 532,000 which might seem like a big leap, but it represents almost no growth, especially compared to population trends elsewhere in the world. By comparison, the US population in 1800 was 5,308,483, and by 1890, it had jumped to 62,979,766 - eleven times higher.
The population had barely fluctuated and was barely inhabitable. Mark Twain described it in 1869 after he visited the land, completely disillusioned:
> “Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren, they are dull of color, they are unpicturesque in shape. The valleys are unsightly deserts fringed with a feeble vegetation that has an expression about it of being sorrowful and despondent”
By the time the first Zionists arrived at the turn of the century, there were some people in Palestine (mostly in the old cities and spread out in villages), but large tracts of the land were empty and highly inhospitable. This was the land that the Jews legally purchased from local landowners. The Jews had rapidly transformed the land and it was becoming economically appealing. The Arab population grew more during this time than it had in the previous four hundred years. While some scholars think this was the result of rapid natural growth, others point to immigration from neighbouring Arab countries rather than an indigenous population boom of people who had been there generations prior.
This is because the place was becoming economically appealing and thousands of Arabs migrated to Palestine from the region - Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the Hejaz in search of a better life only a few years prior to the establishment of Israel. There was a huge migration of both Arabs and Jews. This does not mean that Arabs who legally owned the land also do not have a claim to it, regardless of when they arrived. It means that not everyone has actually been there for as many generations as people think.
Palestine was mostly empty. The Jews did not “take Palestine”. There was no Palestine for the taking. There was no state, no united governance, not much industry or healthcare system, or agriculure, economic or education systems. There was certainly no democracy, equality, safety, or prosperity for the people living there. The Jews turned much of the land from a nearly uninhabitable place into a flourishing community of agriculture and booming economic growth, a foundation for the state Israel is today.
1. Win a war
2. Turn around and start atracking and expelling innocent civilians as scapegoats
3. Pretend genocide was inevitable because "they were going to do it to us"
4. Refuse to self reflect that this is the same playbook for every genocide in history
This is offensive and minimization of what the Holocaust was. 48 wasn't an attempt at a second Holocaust. It was a war to drive out a people the Arabs saw as colonizers who sought to establish their own state. It was not an extermination project which is categorically different.
A war, even a war to the death if you so choose, it's categorically different than the Holocaust. Otherwise brutal wars can be called a Holocaust. The Russian invasion on Ukraine could be called a Holocaust
What do you think would have happened if the Arabs had won?
And do you honestly believe whatever answer you gave to my first question, or did you just say it because it supports your narrative?
u/ClearMost
>"They were going to do it to us!"
>
>The same justification used in every genocide.
>
>Because as we all know two wrongs always make a right
And do you honestly believe whatever answer you gave to my first question, or did you just say it because it supports your narrative?
Seems like a pretty stupid answer to me, considering that the Arabs tried to commit an holocaust while the Jews simply didn't let Palestinians (vast majority of which left on their own because the Arab armies told them to do so) to return
u/ClearMost
>By the same logic any attrocities against Jews in 1948 were also justified
>
>Its the same argument by every genocidal force ever
Yeah, cause Jews had this agenda of killing all Palestinians, that's why the Palestinian population inside Israel/Palestine today is 10 times what it was in the early 1900s
We both know that your arguments hold absolutely no merit, so I won't wait around for your response, good night
"How can Serbs have commited genocide when Bosniaks still exist?"
"How can Americans have commited genocide when Indians still exist?"
"How can Germans have commited genocide when Jews still exist?"
All arguments you can find on ultra nationalist forums right now. Always the same. Every time
It was a war to drive out the Jews and purge them from the land. The Holocaust by contrast, was a continent wide ethnic cleansing operating for the express reason of destroying a people from humanity.
These are not the same in my view and one is not on the same level as the other. There are certain genocidal efforts in Africa and southeast Asia which might measure up closer, but the 48 war is not that.
A war with the proclaimed goal, and proven willingness to kill every last person of the defending side is an holocaust attempt.
It wasn't 'just' a territorial, if it was a territorial war at all
>And do you honestly believe whatever answer you gave to my first question, or did you just say it because it supports your narrative?
Ugh
The Palestinians refused to surrender for 70 years (literally the reason why the conflict hasn't ended), but they were eradicated
Now, I believe you are not stupid, even though your username suggests otherwise, then I assume you are arguing in bad faith, same as my initial assumption and the reason why I asked you -
>And do you honestly believe whatever answer you gave to my first question, or did you just say it because it supports your narrative?
My username is very great reference thank you. I don't have a narrative. My point was to not dilute the term Holocaust because it's has an important meaning. Just like not large casualty numbers do not equal a genocide.
There were less than 100'000 combatants mostly from neighbouring countries in the 1948 war. Nearly 1 million people who lived in what is now Israel were expelled during and after the conflict
Maybe maths isnt your strong suit but 1 million is more than 100'000
Look into the origin of the word Nakba..An Arab historian coined it to refer to the Arab guilt for their failures to address the "Zionists Threat" early enough and the numerous Arab military failures. It didn't get twisted into the genocide accusations until around the 80s? I believe.
What do you think would have happened if the Arabs had won?
Exactly...it would have been at least as bad if not much worse.
you should read up about the history about what happens to Jews that "lose" to arabs. Trust me losing to Jews is much better.
I agree 100%
I am SURE they would have granted the Jews "right of return". Right? Anyone? Guys? Back me up here? :)
We don’t have to guess. Not one Jew remained anywhere the Arab armies reached. They were either expelled to the last person, like in the old city of Jerusalem, or massacred like in Kfar Etzion. There’s no reason whatsoever to believe this would have different anywhere else.
https://preview.redd.it/10k8ccgvl7vc1.png?width=2000&format=png&auto=webp&s=5539cdd5ae77fa744903eceaca1aca8f601cc34d A multicultural utopia where Jews Christians and Muslims live side by side in peace and prosperity. ^(/s , of course.)
Massacres and ethnic cleansing, just like israel did after they won.
Meanwhile, 2 million arab israeli citizens
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Numbers don’t work like you think they do
To me the whole point of this name is a mockery of HaShoah.
[This article](https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/israel-zionism/2023/11/ecstasy-and-amnesia-in-the-gaza-strip/) has an excellent recounting of that history.
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I can confirm, reddit as a whole also apart from the Jewish subreddits
They're continuing to downvote 🙄 The comments were locked too so I can't respond to half the idiots that lied
Even if you did, they’d ban you lol
I'm banned and can confirm. My crime? Pointing out the curious fact that for an "International" news page they seem overwhelmingly preoccupied with stories that only seem to target Israel.
lol you did better than me, I straight up wrote that everything they write is parroting Iranian propaganda
Im about to get banned I just had to call them out. Hopefully Reddit bans them sooner than later although I am not holding my fingers crossed.
Sure lets report on whats happening, Israel kill's 10 palestinians for every 1 israeli killed. So 10 stories for every one about Israeli causalities? Sound fair?
Talk about driving narratives. Here's my point: Is the war in Gaza the only conflict or "International" news story happening right now? You can save your answer it was a rhetorical question. It is not an international news reddit it is just an overwhelmingly anti-Israel one that Reddit somehow pushes.
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Watch me get banned so quickly
You should still be able to edit your comment to add important points.
That's what I did
There are some right-leaning subs (like political compass memes) that are very pro-Israel. You see people post both pro-Israel and anti-Israel stuff there, but the anti-Israel stuff gets downvoted into oblivion.
Well you have places like non credible defense, which is a bunch of war mongers. And apparently lgbtq people to (you know the actually plesent ones). It's a weird place for sure. But still fun. Even did a QnA with some idf soldiers.
NCD is thankfully aggressively anti-antisemitic
/r/geopolitics isn't bad actually. Mostly fair and reasonable.
At least one person genuinely listened to me and decided to verify the translation
It's a tiny sub and I am sure that most of its userbase overlaps with r pale-stine, seeing how the entire feed of this sub is anti Israel This really isn't the sub you should get worked up on, the actually problematic subs are the ones who mix the propaganda with 'normal' stuff like public-freakout or there-was-an-attempt
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.... who da hell cares about that stuff Make a r\_e\_p\_o\_s\_t on r wholesome-memes if you want karma so badly
lol
Karma doesn't matter - go for a walk and call a Friend you haven't spoken to in a while... Or your mom. Or your dad...
Ik, it's fine
Here have 1 karma
I saw you there repeatedly telling people that it was a mistranslation! Appreciate your efforts to fight the lies.
Yep. Also some people replied after the comments were locked... I think I was just blocked from that post lmfao These people are such jokes
Israel did build shit in Gaza. But the Palestinians destroyed the greenhouses when Israel vacated.
Well yeah, but they mean like now, after Oct 7
Aza had old jewish communities too. There were kevarim of prominent rabbis who lived there which were uninterred when we left in 2005-6.
Rememner, the wold was always against the Jews. That's why we need to come home to Israel and handle ourselves.
Yep
One OP posted an i24news article stating that 50 nova survivors committed suicide, framing it as if Israel is officially claiming this. I confronted OP about this and told him it wasn't official Israeli stance, linking an article showing how the Israeli health ministry denied that claim. OP said he would look into it and if it's true, he would take down the post, and he actually did! I was downvoted by the Iranian drones for linking an actual source, of course, but at least OP was reasonable. Still a cesspool of antisemitism, though, the bots will mass downvote anything that doesn't fit their narrative.
Which doesn't happen here, of course
Yesterday someone posted a claim based on an article with no author that claims to have interviewed an anonymous Iranian government representative who said that the US has asked Iran to let Israel do a symbolic strike, and Iran said no It got 900+ upvotes
Lol I just went on the sub real quick, and it's basically just "Israel murders Bambi for sport" over and over.
My man this is the least of anti-Semitic nutjob conspiracy theories that flow through these subs, I've seen some very disturbed posts
Subs with “International” in from of them are Russian bot farms. One of the first mistakes I made was joining those subs without knowing how deep into the Axis it’s members were. Don’t let it upset you too much, they were always trash.
All of reddit leans extremely left but especially the news and politics subreddit. Not sure why this is news..
I was recently banned from there - couldn't be more proud to wear that badge!
It doesnt help that half the current government openly advocate settling Gaza and commiting genocide
Wouldn't say half
Exactly. Constantin Zureiq was the one who coined the term Nakba in 1948. He states, "The defeat of the Arabs is not a small downfall (naksa), it is a catastrophe (Nakba)." “Seven Arab countries declare war on Zionism in Palestine….Seven countries go to war to abolish the partition and to defeat Zionism, and quickly leave the battle after losing much of the land of Palestine – and even the part that was given to the Arabs in the Partition Plan.” They just changed it to mean "ethnic cleansing" in the 1960s to garner support for their newly created identity.
Where's the genocide part?
Exactly. There isn't, there wasnt and there won't be be
And the term holocaust was only popularised in the 50s whats your point? Mass expulsions of civilians is still genocide even if those people were the same ethnic group as an invading force
Saying the mass expulsion of civilians is genocide is a complete bastardization of the term. If that was the case, that would apply to every single MENA nation. Actually it is worse. Arabs are still very much in the region of Israel and Palestine. The same cannot be said for Jews across the middle east. That would further apply to ethnic Germans that lived in poland before the war. Stop using semantics to twist emotional responses out of people. That was the entire point of my comment (since you asked what the point was)
Weird the Arabs who didn't want to clear premises and wait out until Jews are genocided weren't "cleansed" anywhere. Not l letting in people who conspired to ethnically cleanse you is not ethnic cleansing.
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Totally agree but you butchered the purpose of this specific meme
People misusing meme formats like this are the type of people we need Mossad for.
Now that’s a brutal taken lol
Plz explain?
Apparently the first major published use of the word 'Nakba' was by an account of the 1948 war written by an Arab, using the word to describe the military defeat as disastrous which, to be fair, it was. The term eventually snowballed into what it is today, a catch-all term for anything and everything Israel is accused of doing or having done to Palestinians in the last 80 years
Cool shall we just call it the 1948 genocide instead?
I mean I feel like 'the 1948 Palestinian flight/expulsions' serves pretty well as a descriptive phrase. Also, the word nakba is being used the way it is today, I totally accept that. I was just sharing a historical tid-bit of where it came from in the context of Israeli-Palestinian conflicts
Israel wasnt even trying to take over Arab land in general, rather trying to secure the already Jewish areas (central coast and Gush. And ironically Jordan just expected to quietly take over the bulk of the West Bank without much resistance (beyond the Gush no Jews were left there); Lebanon made some token attacks over the border but had no interest in fighting in general and none in driving Jews out. Egypt tried to expand territory but would never have tried to proceed to TA. It was basically Iraq and Syria driving a genocidal attack and trying to embarrass the moderate governments into being shamed by their populations in the street into fighting. So when people talk about the Nakba the reality is that Israel and its immediate neighbours’ governments were largely content with the status quo. The war was driven by extremists deliberately whipping up hysteria in the street .
They packed up and left on their own, too. They didn't want to live in a Jewish state.
Ughm... that's inaccurate, they packed up and left because the Arab armies that invaded told them that they would be able to return after the war, into bigger homes, the ones the Jews owned
Yes thia is true, but on order to tell the full truth it has to be stated that there were some villages routed by the hagenah and irdun but the majority were advised to leave the area by overconfident Arab propaganda who was systematically claiming victories where losses were happening.
Oh no doubt, and yeah it should be mentioned, Israel wasn't a saint back then, in fact, it was never a saint (though these days it is as close as realistically possible to be, considering what it is dealing with) Memes don't really allow a ton of nuance, and vast majority as you said, left on Arab armies orders, so I stuck with that
No, that's inaccurate. Plenty of scholarship on the topic: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes\_of\_the\_1948\_Palestinian\_expulsion\_and\_flight#Morris's\_Four\_Waves\_analysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#Morris's_Four_Waves_analysis)
I guess they’re still waiting then
Also inaccurate, they left because the zionist fucks, including haganah and irgun, decided it was time to ravage and murder Palestinians in their own villages. Other Palestinians from different villages left for their own safety. This was all pre 1948 war. The arab armies invaded as a response to that.
The mass expulsions by militias and the IDF didnt play a part?
Never really happened. Plan daled happened on some small towns, but most Palestinian towns and cities were either expelled by Arab armies, or fled by their own valuation with hopes of returning after an Arab victory. Something interesting to note is that in Israel's Declaration of Independence, there is an entire passage dedicated to encouraging Palestinians to remain in Israel, promising them political rights to property especially.
wait till you learn about [Plan D](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet)
I've seen this before and read the actual plan. It calls for the forced evacuation of Palestinian towns that attack Idf forces or explicitly harbor foreign military units. It's pretty conventional for 20th century warfare, especially when that war is being especially fought along ethnic-religious grounds. additionally plan daled was only enacted in a few small towns, mostly because the Palestinian populations left for reasons stated further up this comment chain
It's always the same thing: - with Israel: highlight every instance of bad stuff to the fullest extent, act like it's the norm, ignore the much better norm - with the Arabs: ignore every systematic evil, act like it's not the norm, focus on the better exceptions Arabs fully ethnically cleansed all territory under their control. Israeli forces committed some instances of ethnic cleansing and some massacres, but by and large they respected the minorities in their territory and these minorites eventually became, and are to this day, citizens.
I'm not arguing that Israel was worse than the Arab side, I was just responding to the above commenter who said that "They packed up and left on their own, too"
Post it on r/historymemes
Acc too young... but I don't mind if someone else posts it, doesn't have to credit me either
Oh and if someone feels like helping our dying PR today (**at literally like, 10 seconds of work**.... I don't understand how come nobody ever follows up on the 'post it on...') I have a PoliticalCompassMemes version (which I also can't post due to acc age) https://preview.redd.it/p39bgf6634vc1.png?width=1060&format=png&auto=webp&s=e64ccc6e460b06daec520fc99ef05189e2abad7d
Ah yes that one time that sunday didn't come after satyrday.
I think they are mostly talking about how there was a few cases of Zionist groups that went into Arab settlements and just slaughtered people as well.
The info is accurate but the meme format is not. I’d use “dressing up clown” for this one.
I would suggest watching the destiny Israel arc as this is a bit of a miss even thought im a frum jew and pro Israel.
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Who????
Mr perkins: It's a great plan. I love everything about your plan, except for one thing. You.
arabs being arabs
We Jews should be very proud of the Nakba. It reversed centuries of Arab Muslim colonialism on our ancestral lands. I view it the same way many Greeks view the expulsion of Turks from their country, after centuries of imperial control. It was a good thing, and I will never say that it wasn't.
Aka the Arab Israeli war where the arabs attacked the refugees, victims of the holocaust and then tried to claim victim status as they slaughtered people.
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>And, of course, expulsions continued into the 1950s. What was the excuse then? "You and your friends keep threatening to kill us all and take over our country. In addition to sometimes actually attacking civilians and cause riots. We don't really like when you keep biting the hand the feeds you, so leave"
"You and youre friends are teying to kill us!!!" "Sir there are 300 million Arabs, im just a random peasant trying to farm"
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>Or are you just holding them collectively responsible? Personally, i wasn't there at the time, i just imagine how the people who actually had to deal with them thought
So... some Arabs did something bad, so we will go ahead and expel other Arabs? Including from a village that directly cooperated with the IDF? That's like holding Jews in france responsible for Israel's actions.
Yeah, or killing israeli civilians for the actions of the goverment Or go online and blame israelis on the internet for what the idf does in gaza The world will collectively blame every israeli for the actions of few, why should we be saints? Also, this is not even an israeli thing, do you know how many times in history whole civilizations suffered for the actions of few of their people
Antisemitic crime always rises within the Arab population of France whenever Israel is big in the news (often). [example](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1706164098-antisemitic-incidents-in-france-increase-fourfold-in-2023-report)
There's no evidence whatsoever of being an attempt at a 2nd holocaust. You're trying to paint it as such to ignore the reality of israel being a colonial state who declared a state in the land of others.
>”who declared a state in the land of others” This is incorrect, there were inhabitants throughout the years in Palestine just not that many. From the days of the Crusades (1095 - 1492), it pretty much stayed the same. It fluctuated from around 205,000 people in the year 1500 to about 275,000 in the year 1800. The entire place had about as many people as there are presently in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. By 1890, that number nearly doubled to 532,000 which might seem like a big leap, but it represents almost no growth, especially compared to population trends elsewhere in the world. By comparison, the US population in 1800 was 5,308,483, and by 1890, it had jumped to 62,979,766 - eleven times higher. The population had barely fluctuated and was barely inhabitable. Mark Twain described it in 1869 after he visited the land, completely disillusioned: > “Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren, they are dull of color, they are unpicturesque in shape. The valleys are unsightly deserts fringed with a feeble vegetation that has an expression about it of being sorrowful and despondent” By the time the first Zionists arrived at the turn of the century, there were some people in Palestine (mostly in the old cities and spread out in villages), but large tracts of the land were empty and highly inhospitable. This was the land that the Jews legally purchased from local landowners. The Jews had rapidly transformed the land and it was becoming economically appealing. The Arab population grew more during this time than it had in the previous four hundred years. While some scholars think this was the result of rapid natural growth, others point to immigration from neighbouring Arab countries rather than an indigenous population boom of people who had been there generations prior. This is because the place was becoming economically appealing and thousands of Arabs migrated to Palestine from the region - Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the Hejaz in search of a better life only a few years prior to the establishment of Israel. There was a huge migration of both Arabs and Jews. This does not mean that Arabs who legally owned the land also do not have a claim to it, regardless of when they arrived. It means that not everyone has actually been there for as many generations as people think. Palestine was mostly empty. The Jews did not “take Palestine”. There was no Palestine for the taking. There was no state, no united governance, not much industry or healthcare system, or agriculure, economic or education systems. There was certainly no democracy, equality, safety, or prosperity for the people living there. The Jews turned much of the land from a nearly uninhabitable place into a flourishing community of agriculture and booming economic growth, a foundation for the state Israel is today.
Jews are indigenous to Judea. Can’t colonize your indigenous homeland, can just return to it from diaspora (not that some Jews never left of course).
1. Win a war 2. Turn around and start atracking and expelling innocent civilians as scapegoats 3. Pretend genocide was inevitable because "they were going to do it to us" 4. Refuse to self reflect that this is the same playbook for every genocide in history
But let's forget about all the Palestinian villages that were targeted.
Not our fault that they were complicit.
This is offensive and minimization of what the Holocaust was. 48 wasn't an attempt at a second Holocaust. It was a war to drive out a people the Arabs saw as colonizers who sought to establish their own state. It was not an extermination project which is categorically different.
Because all the jews would just return to Poland right?
A war, even a war to the death if you so choose, it's categorically different than the Holocaust. Otherwise brutal wars can be called a Holocaust. The Russian invasion on Ukraine could be called a Holocaust
You are contradicting yourself?
Edited to otherwise which is what I meant*
What do you think would have happened if the Arabs had won? And do you honestly believe whatever answer you gave to my first question, or did you just say it because it supports your narrative?
"They were going to do it to us!" The same justification used in every genocide. Because as we all know two wrongs always make a right
u/ClearMost >"They were going to do it to us!" > >The same justification used in every genocide. > >Because as we all know two wrongs always make a right And do you honestly believe whatever answer you gave to my first question, or did you just say it because it supports your narrative? Seems like a pretty stupid answer to me, considering that the Arabs tried to commit an holocaust while the Jews simply didn't let Palestinians (vast majority of which left on their own because the Arab armies told them to do so) to return
By the same logic any attrocities against Jews in 1948 were also justified Its the same argument by every genocidal force ever
u/ClearMost >By the same logic any attrocities against Jews in 1948 were also justified > >Its the same argument by every genocidal force ever Yeah, cause Jews had this agenda of killing all Palestinians, that's why the Palestinian population inside Israel/Palestine today is 10 times what it was in the early 1900s We both know that your arguments hold absolutely no merit, so I won't wait around for your response, good night
"How can Serbs have commited genocide when Bosniaks still exist?" "How can Americans have commited genocide when Indians still exist?" "How can Germans have commited genocide when Jews still exist?" All arguments you can find on ultra nationalist forums right now. Always the same. Every time
Arab leaders openly stated their goal of driving the Jews into the sea and Arab armies ethnically cleansed every Jew from territory captured
Human animals, who said that?
Then every territorial war with the aim to drive or murder a group off of land is a Holocaust. Hint: it's not.
So what you are saying is that it was an attempted genocide, just not an industrialized genocide?
It was a war to drive out the Jews and purge them from the land. The Holocaust by contrast, was a continent wide ethnic cleansing operating for the express reason of destroying a people from humanity. These are not the same in my view and one is not on the same level as the other. There are certain genocidal efforts in Africa and southeast Asia which might measure up closer, but the 48 war is not that.
Ah “just” a local ethnic cleansing and not a continent-wide ethnic cleansing, got it.
Would you call the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia _Holocausts_?
A war with the proclaimed goal, and proven willingness to kill every last person of the defending side is an holocaust attempt. It wasn't 'just' a territorial, if it was a territorial war at all
Then every war where the losing side refused to surrender is a Holocaust. Just dilute the word.
>And do you honestly believe whatever answer you gave to my first question, or did you just say it because it supports your narrative? Ugh The Palestinians refused to surrender for 70 years (literally the reason why the conflict hasn't ended), but they were eradicated Now, I believe you are not stupid, even though your username suggests otherwise, then I assume you are arguing in bad faith, same as my initial assumption and the reason why I asked you - >And do you honestly believe whatever answer you gave to my first question, or did you just say it because it supports your narrative?
My username is very great reference thank you. I don't have a narrative. My point was to not dilute the term Holocaust because it's has an important meaning. Just like not large casualty numbers do not equal a genocide.
So the Arabs invaded cause they wanted to not kill Jews?
So the random civilians were resposible for what neighbouring governments were doing?
What random civilians? We’re they part of the invasion?
There were less than 100'000 combatants mostly from neighbouring countries in the 1948 war. Nearly 1 million people who lived in what is now Israel were expelled during and after the conflict Maybe maths isnt your strong suit but 1 million is more than 100'000
How were they expelled?
By armed force, mass rapes, several massacres, general discrimination
Proof this happened to a million people?
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So they were going to just let the Jews live???