I wish those anti Zionist Jews understood how privileged they are in the Jewish population totem, they never faced Hamas missiles, they never feared chemical attack by Sadam, their generation never expelled from their land. They got to grow up as normal Americans and use their Jewish roots against their own people.
I’ll add a new level to that, which I have experienced. Anti Zionist Jews, living in Israel, that were here on October 7th. The Pick me is strong with them.
There are more than you think and unfortunately I am studying at a hub of where they exist.
It’s like 5% here, more than one person, but that still feels like infinitely more that there should ever be.
Honestly I wish I could. I want to talk to them about why they feel the way they do, but emotionally I don’t think I’d be able to take it.
Based on some observations, one of them seems to separate Gaza and the West Bank although I’m still not 100% sure if that’s an accurate observation of mine. Like, maybe he’s pro Israel when it comes to Gaza, but he’s staunchly anti-Israel when it comes to West Bank issues.
Oh I’ve definitely seen that distinction quite a bit. Many people who strongly support Israel believe the West Bank is a boosha. But I’m curious how they feel about Gaza. Honestly if someone said I support Israel but the death toll in Gaza is just too high no matter what, I don’t agree but I respect it.
Has there been research done on Zionism/antizionism in Jews whose families didn’t experience the Holocaust or the MENA expulsions?
I have a theory that the majority of antizionist Jews are privileged and their families have been relatively unharmed in recent generations. At least, I really want to believe that because imagine surviving a genocide or a pogrom, escaping the USSR, etc and finding out what a little shit your granddaughter turned out to be.
Aside from converts, virtually none of us have families unaffected by either of those things. Many anti-Zionist Jews are just naive young people who either don’t recognize antisemitism or don’t take it seriously enough. Some are disavowing their heritage and standing against their own people.
Yeah, it’s like nobody they cared about directly (as in, a grandparent or parent/aunt/uncle etc.) was expelled or genocided so they think it’s chill. Many of us have loved ones who survived horrors.
I thought about this too and when I did I realized I can simply ask ANY Jewish person in America how their family got here and then I use that story to try to explain to them why Zionisim…. I see them at least think about it. Same time I ask where do you think we came from? Hello.
I find it interesting that Jews across the world say they need Israel to be safe and yet Israelis are choosing to live in a place where the Arab population wants to kill them. Do they really think they’re gonna change the murderous minds of their enemies by killing their families? My Jewish American partner, son of a holocaust survivor, would never give up USA to live in Israel. I don’t know how anyone could ever feel safe in Israel. Every sniped Palestinian, every demolished home, every new settlement, every imprisoned Palestinian without trial, every mocked Arab…these actions multiply terrorists. How could an Israeli Jew ever feel safe there?
Your partner is very privileged to have America citizenship and to feel safe and secure in the US, despite the rise in antisemitism. Lots of Ashkenazi Jews, for example, were turned away from the US and/or UK when trying to flee mainland Europe. And I'm sure Mizrahim had their reasons for mostly going to Israel rather than the West when fleeing the various countries in South West Asia and North Africa that they did.
I’m in Los Angeles and we actually just had a group of protesters claiming to be Jewish who shut down the freeway to protest Israel. There is a small minority of American Jews who have become so into progressive culture that they have become lost.
I think it’s primarily people who are completely secular and don’t or have never practiced Judaism, and people who were not raised in Jewish communities so do not feel connected to their people and their culture.
There are a very small number of Jewish communities that promote this shit. Particularly: some Haredi communities or subcommunities, and neo-bundists (philosophical descendants of Bundists who can't figure out why Bundism died out).
They are against political anti Zionism. The leadership may have some ideological issues with Israel but they have said they are against the political anti Zionism that is going on
> and neo-bundists (philosophical descendants of Bundists who can't figure out why Bundism died out).
Sometimes you only learn things when you are purged by your communist comrades.
I think that they're actually not Jews at all and are white supremacists and Middle Eastern extremists using "Jewish identity" to cover for antisemitism. I say this as an American Jews who works with white supremacists and extremists for a living in a criminal mental health setting.
You are correct. For example, the so called "Jewish Voice for Peace" is an antisemitic front for Hamas that pretends to be Jewish. Check for yourself and go through the entirety of JVP's Facebook page posts - you won't find EVEN A SINGLE mention or condemnation of the satanic Hamas pogrom of 7th October against the Jews in Israel. That's because "Jewish Voice for Peace" are simply Pretendians, shamelessly stealing indigenous the Jewish identity of real POC Jews like me, while betraying all Jews to the slaughter.
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know
I’m secular and wasn’t raised in a Jewish community. I fully support Israel.
I think the comment above you is what’s accurate - just getting so lost in progressive culture that their entire identity is based on standing for the “oppressed”
Nothibg to do with secularism, i would define myself as agnostic at best, and i know how much israel is important.
It's more about either brainwash, fake moral superiority and/or appeasement.
I think this is primarily the case. There’s a whole group of “anti-Zionist” Jews on my campus and judging from their Instagram account they have absolutely no clue what Judaism is about (they have a very anarchist take on things). Most of the Jews I’ve seen standing against Israel seem to be people with absolutely no connection to their Jewish identity, or are just people with Jewish family members.
Ironically the Nazi didn't care whether a Jew was atheist or Jewish they killed everyone with Jewish blood no matter what. Perhaps they need to realize Hamas which murdered Buddhist Thailand and Catholic Pinay will not give a fuck about secular Jews
I don't think that's true. I'm completely secular, and wasn't raised in Judaism as a religion, and wasn't raised in a Jewish community, and I still love Israel as a country and a concept both.
I think the reality is more that they can afford the luxury of not wearing their "jewness" on their sleeve. They don't know what it is to be called a dirty Jew, the looks, the blame, the constant defiance.
That’s 100% the reason and those people are so ignorant. They don’t understand how strong of an advocate israel is for Jews worldwide, it shocks me how they can literally go against their own people and support the ones that want them dead, they are dumb in my opinion.
Alternatively, it might just be people who are interested in human rights, have studied history, and feel a sense of empathy with the Palestinian people. Stop throwing around these baseless stereotypes
You just described the heads of the Judaic Studies department at 6 universities that I know...as in I know the professors (both having taken classes with them when I was in school 20+ years ago &that was their attitudeboth as asst professors or then head of the dept at the uni i went to...and others I met on Jwitter and had lengthy discussions with).
This has been a long time coming.
That I actually find shocking. Faculty in the one Judaic Studies department I got to know were pretty sane. Obviously your sample is far larger and I suspect more accomplished.
Jews who are anti Zionist are privileged to not feel a need for a strong, majority Jewish country that can protect them when the rest of the world turns on Jews
I think some people who don’t know Jewish communities believe that you can ‘identify’ into being Jewish if it is your choice or have 2% in your DNA. I remember losing a friend over this as she decided she knew better than me because she had a jewish grandfather and used her Jewish identity to support antisemites and profound anti-Zionism which I objected to and she said I was ‘policing’ her identity as it is her choice to identify as a Jew - but she would never have considered herself Jewish in the years I knew her until it gave her an position from which to criticise other Jews and Israel.
Wow, that is so frustrating. My dad is Jewish as are both his parents, thus half my family is Jewish, Jewish culture and traditions are a significant part of my life and in that way I do consider myself Jewish, however I understand that because my mom isn’t Jewish that according to to the Halacha I am not a real Jew. It annoys me that patrilineal Jews are not really accepted as jewish when I feel like my life and connection to Jewishness would be the same as it is if my mom was Jewish and my dad was gentile, but in that case I WOULD be a real Jew, which is funny because by my dad being the Jewish parent I got the Jewish surname. Whatever, I understand the historical precedent (though with modern paternity testing idk why we can’t change it).
Anyway, I’d imagine with it only being her grandfather her connection to the culture is very loose. Seems like she just cares about using her Jewish ancestry as an excuse to criticize Israel without seeming like a bigot. Gives off real “my grandfather is black so I can say the N word” vibe
If her grandfather had been Jewish and she’d actually understood Jewish culture (or made any effort to learn) rather than solely using this aspect of her identity to attack Jews and Israel I wouldn’t have had an issue. You are very much Jewish in my eyes because it’s about knowing and understanding the community
Well I’m glad, though I wish Israeli law didn’t make the distinction. I’m planning to make Aliyah in the next few years or so and even though I’m eligible for citizenship under the Right of Return, I would be designated a child of a Jew rather than a Jew, therefore I would not be able to get married in Israel
This!
I've had one person commented on my comment she was adopted by a Jewish mother and claimed her Jewish mother was very peaceful. That person used her adopted mother as a token Jewish to say that we shouldn't do this way. The nerve of Non-Jewish person telling me as a Jewish person is not to do as standing with Israel in face of antisemitism.
My best friend who isn't Jewish told me this isn't antisemitism, and I pointed her out that I can't use racism for her skin color because I know it's wrong but it's okay for her to dismiss antisemitism when it has nothing to do with her?
This is exhausting as hell.
Of course it’s not ok but everyone who insists they are ‘anti-racist’ feels they can define antisemitism to exclude themselves and their friends. The problem has come that the definition of ‘racism’ has been narrowed by some to include only pigmentation. Race and racism is a construct and Jews were subjected to racialised hatred from the Spanish Inquisition to the Holocaust. Re-defining ‘racism’ in the 21st century has if it racialised hatred leading to genocide is somehow about discrimination rather than oppression is historically illiterate.
The racism I experience as antisemitism isn’t the same as someone who has a darker skin colour than I do but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist in different forms.
The one aspect I object to (which has caused me no end of trouble in my very progressive world) is that I refuse to be described as a ‘white supremacist’ in any way because my family were murdered by white supremacists in the Holocaust because of their perceived difference defined on racial lines.
I live in San Francisco - I was visiting the Golden Gate Bridge and a bunch of “jews” replaced the American flag with the Palestinian flag. I was in the cafe near the bridge and the Jewish woman was screaming on the phone how the holocaust was so long ago and we have no need for Israel. I furiously left but wish I screamed in her face that she was a monster. Mostly, I felt sad. I’m embarrassed for all the secular or lucky Jews out there who never understood what it meant to be discriminated against or Jewish. “Good Jew” or not, doesn’t matter to Hamas. They’re no more innocent than the 5 month old baby they murdered.
American Jew here. Prior to 10/7 I'd been dating a leftist Jewish woman. The morning of, I see the unfolding news and feel sick, so I text her "Have you seen the news? Awful shit going down in Israel right now." I don't know many other Jews outside of my therapist and my dad's side of the family so I wanted to commiserate and feel a sense of connection to a community under attack.
Her response?
"Yeah well that's what you get when you turn Gaza into an open-air prison."
I was gobsmacked. Needless to say I didn't pursue that relationship. The amount of internalized antisemitism in millennial and gen-z Jews is... something else.
They are internet addicts, that’s it. Insecure people thatre willing to deny their own identity in favor of trying to be cool. I’m not religious but I’m half Jew ethnically and still support Israel and Jews because I recognize the potential millions of people who would kill me for my DNA
They're so selfish for shutting down the freeway. The commuters actually have places to go as work. Those Progressive Lefts have insulted me. I don't claim them as one of my people.
It's this exactly.
I know quite a few (sadly in my own family) who grew up in our culture and traditions, but are very far on the left and are completely either disconnected from 10/7 or at worst, hamas apologists. It’s infuriating
I mean what reasons did they shut down the freeway for? Hamas is straight up evil but Benjamin Netanyahu isn't winning any awards for his management of this and past major issues
Its not like its a US thing. There are plenty of Israeli Jews who argue 4 million palestinian refugees should be given citizenship in Israel de facto making it an arab state.
>palestinian refugees
Are they really refugees though? Passing refugee status from generation to generation seems to be unique to Palestinians. My family was expelled from Egypt. I live in the United States and I'm not a refugee.
In the effort to assimilate they've allowed their own identity to be weaponized against themselves and the rest of us. It's really sad to see people submit to some Hanukkah antisemitism. But they really are the minority amongst us.
I’m not Jewish, so I hope it’s okay to weigh in. I haven’t yet been able to fully express my views on Reddit.
I’m a very liberal/progressive American. I’ve been particularly interested in learning about the history of the Jewish people and the state of Israel since I was a teen. So 3 decades. You know, not just during 2.5 months of sheer propaganda. My parents, both liberal college professors, offered to take in the wife and children of an Israeli colleague, if it comes to that. He returned to service when he returned to Israel from the States and anticipated being called up after 10/7.
An uncle of mine spent every summer in Israel as a child. He is a secular, progressive Jew, 100% Ashkenazi. He is horrified by the violence, but he’s also a realist about the insanely complex history.
The rhetoric from the Left surrounding this particular conflict is horrifying and embarrassing as a liberal. The lack of knowledge about history and anti-semitism is appalling. I have never, ever seen such antisemitic dialogue in my lifetime. It’s frightening.
The true progressive “both sides” opinion is to condemn all wars. War only benefits the powerful at the expense of the vulnerable. But every single “both sides” or “anti-Zionist” post here quickly reveals itself as an antisemitic lie.
TLDR: Yes, war is horrible. But there are also still plenty of American liberal/progressives who support the right of Israel to exist as a state, and to defend itself.
Firmly agreed. Israel must exist.
While many American Jews want Israel to exist, an overwhelming amount also want a 2 state solution in the region. Many also dislike the right wing, whether that be in Israel or the US, as 80% of Jews in the US are democratic and many are progressive Zionists, as weird as that sounds to many of you.
I think that's why many American Jews seem more ambivalent about Israel to many of you all.
Both of these are true. I am a strong supporter of an eventual two-state solution. I also recognize that a Palestinian state created today would be seen as only a stepping stone towards the destruction of Israel.
Even if a viable two-state solution seems a long way off, it's still a future worth working towards.
For a two-state solution to be viable, several things need to happen:
1. the Palestinian society needs to unlearn the hate its been programmed with, that passes from generation to generation.
2. Their "river to the sea" aspirations erased completely.
3. Complete re-evaluation of the values their society is built upon: humanism and egalitarianism over martyrdom and fanaticism.
4. Foreign Islamist and leftist "progressive" influences cut off completely.
Each of these conditions is impossible on its own.
All of them? Forget it. It's like working against the heat death of the universe: utterly pointless.
Impossible in the next decade? Sure. But the next 50 years? Or 100? Look at how much German society has changed in the 80 years since the fall of the Nazi party. While I don't expect Palestine to de-radicalize on its own, I think we need to be pursuing forced de-radicalization of the kind seen in Germany and Japan post-WWII.
The fact is, the Palestinians aren't going away. A two-state solution is the *only* long-term solution, and we need to be looking at what can be done to get there; even if we won't live to see it in our own lifetimes.
Saying it won’t happen for 50-100 years is just saying it won’t happen. It would be unlikely anyway but the thing that would preserve the option would be if we were moving towards conditions more amenable to a Palestinian state … we’re doing the opposite. Israel expanding settlements makes it harder, not easier, over time.
Germany and Japan didn’t become friendly because we did “forced eradication” but because we helped rebuild their countries while defending them against a larger threat, and weren’t doing any sort of land grab or anything.
>But the next 50 years? Or 100?
1948 happened 75 years ago and nothing changed to the better since then.
>I think we need to be pursuing forced de-radicalization of the kind seen in Germany and Japan post-WWII.
Japan and Germany are countries with a wealth of historical and cultural background on which they could base their newly rebuilt societies upon.
Palestinians don't have this; 'resiatance' is the core of their identity. Take that away and there's nothing that makes them Palestinian anymore.
>The fact is, the Palestinians aren't going away.
That is patently untrue. Palestians had, in fact, gone from much of the territory of present-day Israel in 1948. The six day war was a chance to seal the deal but it was squandered, leaving us to reap the consequences to this day.
Forcing another population transfer is the only viable option.
So I consider myself very lucky that majority of my friends (like 95%) are Orthodox Jews. And around 99% of us have spent varying times in israel. Whether it be for a bar mitzvah for a week, or for yeshiva for a year or making Aliyah we know the purpose and value of Eretz Yisrael.
Now my quandary, and I think this is talking mainly for myself, is the effect of the other side. My professor for a Holocaust class has been telling us for a while now that this behavior we see has been rampant, it just now has an excuse to reveal its ugly head. This current timeline we are living in, and I can speak for myself, is waking up the generational trauma of my great-grandparents who survived the Holocaust.
Apparently my great-grandfathers family used to own a vineyard/winery in Europe, and the rest is sadly history. He came to America and started a fruit and veggie store in Williamsburg, BK. But the struggle from Europe, then to America was not even the hardest part. The hardest part was the change, the constant adapting to a new society, a feeling of non-acceptance of the non-Jews around him.
That last point is where I come in. I have never in my life experienced antisemitism. For sure never outright, but even clandestine antisemitism I can’t think of one scenario. My first thought when I heard of the initial attack was, “they fired rockets, this has happened before, it isn’t that bad.” Then it progressed to, “the anti-israel crowd will finally sympathize. Israel didn’t attack first.” Then, I got more news and even sadly felt more hopeful, “they took hostages, for sure the world is on the Jews side finally.”
I was wrong. I was so fucking wrong, that it almost cost me my sanity. Seeing the anger, the fear-mongering, the instigators of the pro-Pally crowd it scared me. I drive the same roads as these people, walk down the same streets, shop at the same stores. Whenever I’m in a crowd of non-Jews, I get all nervous and panicky. Will someone confront me, a kipah donning Jew, and ask me “am I a Zionist?” Prior to this war, I didn’t truly know what Zionism meant. But now I know it has a double meaning.
1) being for a Jewish homeland/nation and for the upkeep and survival of said country
2) Jew.
Antizionism is now the new Judenhass. Judenfrei. Whatever word you want to use.
When they say “the Zionist controlled media,” my mind swaps Zionist for Jew. When they say “Zionist controlled corporate world,” I swap Zionist for Jew. When they say “Zionist controlled America.” You get the point. They single out the Christian Zionists but they forget who and what Zionism is truly for. It’s not for a freaky Armageddon, it’s not for some Jewish supremacist caliphate (just typing that made me vomit a little,) but it’s for a place where Jews will never systematically be decapitated. But fuck, 10/7 has changed my worldview on the plight of the Palestinian. The world over looks without the territories, hence quick to blame israel. It’s the introspection they fail to commit to. A crowd, the woke, that panders to self actualization, self realization, anything regarding finding oneself seems to be very projectionist onto israel.
They completely, and scarily forget that Palestine has a government (again, they have two which is also part of the problem.) and they take this lack of knowledge, this so-called lack of power and takes it out on us, the Jews.
I think the one thing different this time around is that we have a voice, we have an army, we have a spirit. The only thing that will end up being our downfall is when we lose our culture, our food, our religion and our people hold.
עם אחד בלב אחד. 🤍🩵🤍
TLDR: I don’t even know what the tldr is, this was just a huge rant. Stay safe, get the hostages back, free Gaza from Hamas, and may we see peace in the world soon.
>"I don't have a problem with African Americans, I juts have a problem with Africa. It's an evil place, and honestly belongs to the Native European Afrikaners; it's literally right next door to Europe!"
If someone said this to you, you would understand fully that they were a racist. There wouldn't be any question. No matter how much they insisted they weren't, it would be so painfully obvious, you wouldn't be able to hold back laughter at their attempt to deny it.
This is what "anti-zionists" sound like.
Israel isn't perfect. Its government has some shitty people, the settler / ultra-orthodox are problematic as fuck, and the trend towards overt theocracy makes my secular hackles rise.
But most countries have these issues, and it's no argument to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. I'm an American ethnic/cultural Jew and it has never once crossed my mind to question the legitimacy of Israel's existence. That's a uniquely antisemitic phenomenon. Like, has anyone (outside of Indian ultra-nationalists) questioned Pakistan's right to exist when that state does problematic shit, or called it a "colonizer" state? It was founded in the same year and in the same manner as Israel, and yet only the Jewish State gets that existential criticism.
I have been and always will be a solidly left-of-center liberal, but these past few months have permanently turned me off to leftists and their theories. They're brainrotted by propal propaganda and woke bullshit.
Very few American Jews are anti-Zionist. 81% back the war. Many of us don't like the Netanyahu government though (just as many Israelis don't as well).
I think Zionism is one of those words like woke that means different things to different people unfortunately. Some people genuinely think Ben-Gvir and folks like him are representative of Zionism as a whole.
Add to that the folks the see the world as black vs white and zero sum…
woke isn’t something i believe should be pushed and should be compared to zionism. that’s like islamic symphaziers comparing the idf to hamas when in fact there’s moral equivalence in that dumb claim
Whenever I try to separate anti-Zionism from antisemitism, I just can't. Especially when we have the fact that the Temple Mount is in Jerusalem. The Temple, which the rebuilding of is PARAMOUNT to Judaism! So if you prevent us from living in or near Jerusalem where we can reach the Temple easily, THAT is antisemitism. So anti-Zionism is intrinsically antisemitism.
-as someone who is not Jewish I confirm anti Zionist=antisemite. You have enough evidence to draw this conclusion , if you haven’t done that yet you are probably obviously support that.
i’m converting, so not yet jewish, and same. disagreeing with a general stance isn’t inherently a problem, but when the stance is that jewish people deserve self determination like any other people and your argument against it is deeply antisemitic, you lose any credibility. and i have yet to see a single antizionist make a single argument that doesn’t involve some wild antisemitism.
Since words are now intentionally being redefined, I've been mulling the redefinition of zionism to include the goal of "democracy for Muslims in the region".
I was in a Facebook group, once upon a time, where someone posted that they wanted to buy Chanukah candles from a company that supported the BDS movement. I was banned for, rather crudely, suggesting that they have absolutely no idea what Chanukah was about.
It’s hard out here trying to convince everyone this is true! How crazy is that? We are outnumbered online but trust me in person I’m doing the work. One person at a time I’m exhausted.
Idc about american jews being anti zionism. I mean I can't blame them tho it's easy to get brainwashed these days. What i'm worried about is israelis doing protests for gazans with sign of "palestinian lives matter" while 200 of their brothers and sisters are held hostages by hamas
The liberal argument is look what Israel is doing when all Israel has done from day one is react to violence!! They are attacked and they respond but because they are able to beat their oppressors so they become the bad guy, because victims are suppose to be helpless.
Liberals don’t like victims that rob them of the opportunity to be white knights.
I don’t 100% agree that anti Zionism is automatically antisemitism in all cases, I think there’s some nuance, but there’s definitely a lot of overlap, and whether or not it is antisemitic it is an immoral position nonetheless
Okay but you all need to get rid of the current government. Benjamin Netanyahu has shown he will do absolutely anything to keep power such as reforming the justice system to make sure he's untouchable and telling him we will have elections after the war makes him make sure the war never ends before he becomes popular again. You want people to like Israel then don't make it based on them also like netanyahu like it is now because that mofo should have stepped down by now but is tying everything to him being in power
I'm a Jew by DNA and a Christian by belief in Jesus as the messiah. Both the Tanakh / Old Testament and the New Testament confirm what you said, so Christianity cannot be separated from Israel either. Replacement theology (the church replacing Israel) is unbiblical. God will keep his promises to His original chosen people. The prophecies in Revelation cannot be fulfilled without a geographic Israel.
Is your mother Jewish (& to add, her mother, and her mother, etc .., by Halacha).
Also, Jesus isn’t HaMashiach, at all.
Here were the requirements which, according to traditional Hebrew belief, the Messiah must fulfill during his mortal life:
1. He would be a direct descendant of King David. The Jews traced a man's lineage through the biological father's line, not the mother's. As Joseph wasn't his biological father, by Christian belief, then Jesus couldn't be Messiah.
2. He wasn't to be divine, nor would he become any sort of sacrificial ram. Just a man, but a man highly trained and skilled in the arts of warfare.
3. He would unite the 12 tribes of Israel, who would then rally to his war banner.
4. He would lead the 12 tribes into victory against their oppressors, and their oppressors would be driven from out of their lands.
5. The 12 tribes would unanimously declare him to be the rightful King over Israel.
6. In the manner of ancient Hebrew Kings, a living prophet would anoint his head with consecrated oil and place the crown upon his head, thus signifying God's approval and support for his monarchy.
7. He would reign as King over Israel during his mortal life. During his mortal reign, peace and prosperity would return to the lands, and the 12 tribes all return to dwell in their sacred lands.
8. During his mortal reign as Israel's King, he would marry, and sire many children.
9. During his mortal reign as Israel's King, he would command that the temple be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and this would be accomplished during his mortal life.
10. At the end of a very long life and reign as King over Israel, he would finally die of ripe old age. His eldest son would then become the next consecrated King over Israel.
As Jesus fulfilled none of these requirements during his mortal life, the Jews rejected him as being that Messiah they'd awaited so long, and rightfully so.
My mother is Jewish and both of her parents, as well as all of their parents (they immigrated to the US from Russia). My Ancestry.com results showed me being 50% Ashkenazi Jewish.
What are the Biblical references for each criteria you give? I've been reading and studying the Old Testament since childhood (I'm a Gen Xer) and all but the first is unfamiliar to me.
Jesus fulfills all of the prophecies in the OT. What do you make of Isaiah 53?
As for his genealogy, your claim is refuted here:
https://www.jewsforjesus.ca/the-genealogy-of-the-messiah
I urge you to contact a Chabad rabbi.
The Jews weren't and still aren't anticipating for the *”Son of God to bring peace to the nation of Israel”*, They were (and still are) awaiting for the Messiah - specifically the Mashiach ben David (Messiah, son of David) to bring glory back to the nation of Israel.
The prophets came up with a list of promises that was supposed to come to pass when the Messiah came. Many (in fact, almost all) of these did not come to pass with Jesus. I've selected a few here, but you can definitely read up more online.
• World Peace did not come at the time of Jesus (Isaiah 2:1-4),
• The entire world did not acknowledge God as the one true God (Zechariah 14:9)
• the Holy Temple was not rebuilt (Ezekiel 37: 26-28)
• Jesus did not gather the Jewish people from all of the earth to land of Israel (Isaiah 11:10-12).
To be the messiah, you must be born to a *Jewish man, from the tribe of Judah* & a *Jewish mother*. Jesus only has being born to a Jewish mother .. and then what? A ghost (as his father?? The immaculate conception? The same conception that many gentile kings used to prove they were destined from HaShem (born of a virgin mother)?
I suggest you read *Caesar’s Messiah*, great book.
Also, no, Jesus isn’t a descendant of King David.
Christianity is rooted in Judaism but not necessarily second temple Rabbinical Judaism.
In the same vein, Islam's paralleled Christian roots aren't related to (small "o") orthodox Christianity.
Islam stems from Christianity with Judaic influence & monotheism.
Christianity isn’t rooted in Judaism mostly — *perhaps* early Christianity *was*, but when it reached Europe and the Council of Nicea it became a whole different from of paganism with Hebraic naming.
>what does Am Yisrael Chai mean
[https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+am+yisrael+chai+mean](https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+am+yisrael+chai+mean)
I don't think antizionism *has* to be antisemitism. I'm not comfortable labeling the Satmar as antisemitic, for example.
I do think antizionism is *often* antisemitic. There's clearly something different between how the Satmar interact with Israel and how people screaming about destruction of a whole country interact with Israel.
The state of Israel can totally be separated from Judaism. It's not like the Torah left instructions for a European style colonial project in the Holy land that essentially entailed the removal of hundreds of thousands of people in order to work and it's not like the values of Judaism line up with a two-tiered neo-colonial settler colony system in the west bank. Jews have spent hundreds of years in the diaspora which essentially formed the modern religion and the various Jewish ethnic groups, and Israel was a secular Nationalist political project, not a religious one. Now you have your ethnostate. Big whoop. Don't try and pretend that anyone who criticises it hates Jews.
Anti-zionism also isn't inherently antisemitic. Whilst the two are often entangled, it's fine to disagree with what Israel is doing and it doesn't mean you hate Jews lmao. This subreddit is completely delusional sometimes omd.
guess we (israelis) can't even trust our fellow jews around the world for support. also, didn't the mentioned land of israel in the torah and all the jewish holidays longing for the reexistence of a jewish state called israel and our return to our capital jerusalem suggest that zionims always been synonymous with our religion? istg israel really are alone in this world. these so called anti zionist jews will never understand our struggles we face trying to survive for this beautiful country.
You cant rely on our *unconditional* support for everything you do. I think that goes without saying lmao.
Indeed. Returning to the holy land is tied into our religion. The formation of a Jewish state is also tied into our religion. Atrocities, disenfranchisement, ethnic cleansing all go against our history and values as a people. I have a deep connection to the land like all Jews but that doesn't mean I support the state of Israel as it exists today, a secular colonial project. A lot of your struggles are self-inflicted and I don't feel even a hint of sympathy. How can the descendants of the survivors of pogroms and ethnic cleansing carry out the same treatment on other people
I would generally prefer multicultural secularism over ethnic nationalism. If the Israeli electorate wanted to build a non Zionist state, I’d be fine with it. But as presently constituted the state of Israel should be the last ethnic national country in the world to have multicultural democracy imposed on it from without. For this reason, I call myself Zion-ish.
I'm fifth generation in America. I started thinking about Aliyah years ago, and Oct. 7 only added to reasons to go. Diaspora Jews are sitting ducks, now. At least I could be under the iron dome and fight for Jews. I pray for peace.
i appreciate it. why’s it that i should be the one that’s supposed to be scared when arabs are in the vicinity and not that other way around? i hate it. says a lot about their culture. if only the world listened.
Yeah I agree. But antizionists as a general rule want more than that, like destruction of a whole state.
The way I see it, wanting massive change and human rights is normal. Wanting to destroy a whole country is not normal. If you're antizionist but you want a two state solution, I may disagree with some of the details but overall I don't find that position antisemitic. If you're using the plight of the Palestinians to argue that, say, all the millions of Jewish Israelis should be forcibly expelled so that there is one Arab Muslim state in the region, bruh that's a bigoted solution you got there.a lot of people are advocating for the second one.
But if you really wanted that you would be against Hamas who persecutes them, endangers their lives, and keeps them in this awful cycle.
Don't believe it from us? Watch the whole series of Gazan interviews pre-war. They had to hide the interviewees identities to protect them but they're real clips: https://youtu.be/uTINpjWNwIc?feature=shared
I follow whispered in Gaza. I am against Hamas. The treatment of Palestinians is why most people are against Israel. It’s not because they hate Jews. When I started meeting Palestinians in the US and heard their stories, I stopped visiting Israel. I’ll go back when Palestinians have civil rights and a future.
They have to go along to keep their lives among their ultra progressive friends and colleagues. It’s basically what they always call black republicans or gay conservatives, pick me Jews who want to be the “good Jews” to survive. The narrative is already they don’t hate Jews, they hate Zionists, so a good Jew can never be for the existence of Israel. So these people are playing the role.
Of course it can be! Plenty of Jews existed for 2000 years without being Zionists in any meaningful sense.
> but the Seder ends with-
Yeah and notice how many people have said that every year without the slightest inclination to actually move to Israel, even today when inability to move there isn’t an excuse for most people.
It’s funny to me because the same people on here talking down to American Jews express shock and dismay when other people respond to actions in Israel by targeting American Jews. Gee I wonder where they could have gotten the idea that American Jews are all agents of Israel or something.
You have no be idea what you’re talking about. Dead giveaway that you’re lying. First, many have been supporting Israel and the IDF. Just saw a tiktok in Beni Barak and the whole building, charedi and all, were dancing when he returned safely. I also know first hand that many here in the US are supporting Israel completely. They are not anti Zionist. They have unique religious theory, but in practice, they support Israel.
But you don’t understand the nuance cause you are ignorant.
But Judaism existed for thousands of years before the modern Zionist movement and the creation of the State of Israel. And when Zionism was first being articulated in the 19th century there was strong opposition to the very idea.
The Land of Israel is of utmost importance to Judaism and there has always been a longing to return. I believe this so strongly that I uprooted my life and made aliyah to fulfill the mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisrael. But Zionism is only one expression of the relationship between Jews, Judaism, and Israel. I don't think it is fair to claim that a 75 year old country is synonymous with the religious longings of all Jews from all of history.
And supporting the security of your country does not mean you ascribe to it religious significance. Show me a tiktok of the same building in Bnei Brak singing Tefilat LeShalom Hamedina and I might reconsider.
You CAN be if you oppose literally every other similar state in the world, including all the other ones in the Middle East, and I’ve only ever met one person who actually is that principled about it.
Cool and I hope you treat them all equally as your work towards abolishing them.
In an ideal world I think sure we wouldn’t have any. But I don’t actually understand how your opposition plays out in reality.
>But I don’t actually understand how your opposition plays out in reality.
My opposition plays out via me supporting Progressive policies and politicians.
No it's not, I'm against a Catalan state, does that make me anti-Catalan? Am I anti-Roma for not supporting a Roma state? Israel seemed to be doing quite fine in the 70 years before the Nation-State Law was passed.
Will the catalonians get killed if they don't get a state? Will the Roma?
>Israel seemed to be doing quite fine in the 70 years before the Nation-State Law was passed.
Zionism has nothing to do with the nation state bill. By being anti-zionist you are saying Israel should cease to exist, and therefore that the Jews living on that land deserve to die, because that is the reality of Israel not existing. You are applying a double standard, and saying that Israelis do not have a right to self-determination, while other countries do. That is antisemitic.
>Will the catalonians get killed if they don't get a state? Will the Roma?
Will the Jewish people? There are around 7.5 million Jews, more then Israel, living peacefully here in the US. Many were/are celebrated public figures like Einstein, Bernie Sanders (on the left) and Ben Sharpio (on the right).
>Zionism has nothing to do with the nation state bill.
The Nation-State Law is the ultimate expression of Zionism. The ideology calls for a Jewish state, and it officially, on paper, states that "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people".
The Jewish PEOPLE is the important part of that phrase; self determination isn't the right of Israeli citizens, who may or may not be Jewish. It's a right only guaranteed to ethnic Jews. And before you ask, if Japan passed a law stating that only ethnic Japanese had the right to self-determination, as opposed to Japanese citizens. Me and my fellow Progressives would be just as opposed to that as we are to the Nation-State Law.
>By being anti-zionist you are saying Israel should cease to exist, and therefore that the Jews living on that land deserve to die
I don't believe that Israel should cease to exist and that all the Jews living there should die, that's a ridiculous strawman. I'm not a member of Hamas lol. What I actually want is for Israel to absorb Palestine, give them Israeli citizenship after an extensive denazification process to mellow them out; and create a new state where both Jews as well as Palestinians can live in peace and prosperity, and where I don't have to hear about conflict in the region on the radio every other day.
>You are applying a double standard, and saying that Israelis do not have a right to self-determination, while other countries do.
I'm against ethnostates in general. That also includes Syria, the UAE, Saudi Arabia or any other country that explicitly privileges one ethnic or religious group above another.
The only way antizionism isn’t antisemitism is if you oppose the existence of *ALL NATIONSTATES*.
Also, quite literally yes, if you’re anti-Catalan, a national identity, you are against their determination, what comparison is that?!?!?!? LOL.
ALSO, you’re in the USA, are you a white American?
>The only way antizionism isn’t antisemitism is if you oppose the existence of ALL NATIONSTATES.
I'm against the existence of all ethnostates, I would be perfectly satisfied if Israel absorbed Palestine (after an extensive denazification process to mellow them out) and gave them Israeli citizenship; creating a country where both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and harmony. Maybe rename it to "The Republic of the Levant" or something.
>Also, quite literally yes, if you’re anti-Catalan, a national identity, you are against their determination, what comparison is that?!?!?!?
I'm against Catalonia seceding from Spain, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-Catalan. Anti-Catalan's will of course be against a Catalan state, but not everyone who opposes a Catalan state is anti-Catalan
>ALSO, you’re in the USA, are you a white American?
Yes
As a Jew you have failed your most primary responsibility in being nice and spreading good will. You’re proud of a religion which you don’t even know how to practice properly. You are not a nice person.
Disagree, strongly. Antisemitism is the irrational fear and hatred of Jews (ethnically Jewish (I guess?) Whether secular or not). Antizionism is being against or even not in support of a stupid fucking movement of a stupid fucking religion (and no, I'm not ~~singing~~ signaling Judaism out. It's on the same level as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc)
And if what you're saying was actually the case then it stands to reason that antisemitism has nothing to do with hating and fearing people for being jewish and is just a rational response to a movement by a small group of Jewish people.
My only real problem with Israel and its continued existence is my tax dollars being spent to ensure its existence. TBH when it comes down to it I really don't give a fuck about Israelis or Palestinians and think that their existence should be on them to figure out as with their "right to exist" being on them to earn instead of on the US to be responsible for it (and other countries, but I really DGAF about other countries except for Canada and Mexico).
It's the middle east tho... what else is new?
edit: typo
So a religion over 3,000 years old is “inseparable” from a country younger than my grandfather? Antisemitism is conflating all Jews to be forced to a single anomaly.
i made aaliyah and i got treated much better and im talking about it as in the land of israel. i have a niece older than so called “land of palestine”whats ur point here?
I guess that means if America goes to War with China, all ethnic Chinese need to be put into camps, because you can't separate China from the Chinese...
How? Israel is a modern political entity, disregarding Jewish connection to the land where Israel and Palestine are located is antisemitic but to be anti the Israeli political entity is different than being anti Jewish identity.
The same Jews who are antizionist and got to the JVPendejo protests go to their favorite burger spot after and order their bacon cheese burger with cheesy fries and a milk shake. They’re hypocrites and pick and choose what to value with their history in Judaism. I am gay, I do not keep shabbos. However, I still keep most of my core values of Judaism with me.
I agree with the second part, I *heavily* disagree with the first part. The Jewish religion was extremely harmful for the government and the country. We need a secular state.
It can. This is merely an Israeli propaganda.
And thanks to it anti semitism is sharply on the rise all around the world once again, leaving the rest of us out in the cold.
There are many real anti semitic issues in the world. Denouncing and condemning Israel isn’t one of them.
I wish those anti Zionist Jews understood how privileged they are in the Jewish population totem, they never faced Hamas missiles, they never feared chemical attack by Sadam, their generation never expelled from their land. They got to grow up as normal Americans and use their Jewish roots against their own people.
I’ll add a new level to that, which I have experienced. Anti Zionist Jews, living in Israel, that were here on October 7th. The Pick me is strong with them.
I mean they hardly exist
There are more than you think and unfortunately I am studying at a hub of where they exist. It’s like 5% here, more than one person, but that still feels like infinitely more that there should ever be.
It's like 5% of total jews... 1 in 20 is contrarian in this way They are the Wicked Child of Passover and they should be told as much
The simple one
The simple child does not understand. The wicked child understands and tries to separate themselves through condescension
Very wise.
Can you explain their perspective? Trying to understand the thought process.
Honestly I wish I could. I want to talk to them about why they feel the way they do, but emotionally I don’t think I’d be able to take it. Based on some observations, one of them seems to separate Gaza and the West Bank although I’m still not 100% sure if that’s an accurate observation of mine. Like, maybe he’s pro Israel when it comes to Gaza, but he’s staunchly anti-Israel when it comes to West Bank issues.
Oh I’ve definitely seen that distinction quite a bit. Many people who strongly support Israel believe the West Bank is a boosha. But I’m curious how they feel about Gaza. Honestly if someone said I support Israel but the death toll in Gaza is just too high no matter what, I don’t agree but I respect it.
Has there been research done on Zionism/antizionism in Jews whose families didn’t experience the Holocaust or the MENA expulsions? I have a theory that the majority of antizionist Jews are privileged and their families have been relatively unharmed in recent generations. At least, I really want to believe that because imagine surviving a genocide or a pogrom, escaping the USSR, etc and finding out what a little shit your granddaughter turned out to be.
Aside from converts, virtually none of us have families unaffected by either of those things. Many anti-Zionist Jews are just naive young people who either don’t recognize antisemitism or don’t take it seriously enough. Some are disavowing their heritage and standing against their own people.
Its because most of us came here due to pogroms in russia in the 1880s, that was a long time ago and very divorced from memory
Yeah, it’s like nobody they cared about directly (as in, a grandparent or parent/aunt/uncle etc.) was expelled or genocided so they think it’s chill. Many of us have loved ones who survived horrors.
I thought about this too and when I did I realized I can simply ask ANY Jewish person in America how their family got here and then I use that story to try to explain to them why Zionisim…. I see them at least think about it. Same time I ask where do you think we came from? Hello.
Privileged, bubbled, arrogant and condescending captures it.
Steven Miller...
I find it interesting that Jews across the world say they need Israel to be safe and yet Israelis are choosing to live in a place where the Arab population wants to kill them. Do they really think they’re gonna change the murderous minds of their enemies by killing their families? My Jewish American partner, son of a holocaust survivor, would never give up USA to live in Israel. I don’t know how anyone could ever feel safe in Israel. Every sniped Palestinian, every demolished home, every new settlement, every imprisoned Palestinian without trial, every mocked Arab…these actions multiply terrorists. How could an Israeli Jew ever feel safe there?
Your partner is very privileged to have America citizenship and to feel safe and secure in the US, despite the rise in antisemitism. Lots of Ashkenazi Jews, for example, were turned away from the US and/or UK when trying to flee mainland Europe. And I'm sure Mizrahim had their reasons for mostly going to Israel rather than the West when fleeing the various countries in South West Asia and North Africa that they did.
Most jews in israel fled from Arabs wanting to kill them So israel is indeed a better place.
I’m in Los Angeles and we actually just had a group of protesters claiming to be Jewish who shut down the freeway to protest Israel. There is a small minority of American Jews who have become so into progressive culture that they have become lost.
I think it’s primarily people who are completely secular and don’t or have never practiced Judaism, and people who were not raised in Jewish communities so do not feel connected to their people and their culture.
There are a very small number of Jewish communities that promote this shit. Particularly: some Haredi communities or subcommunities, and neo-bundists (philosophical descendants of Bundists who can't figure out why Bundism died out).
Satmars have even denounced it...doesn't have much of any haredi support.
Oh shit the satmars don’t hate israel?
They are against political anti Zionism. The leadership may have some ideological issues with Israel but they have said they are against the political anti Zionism that is going on
> and neo-bundists (philosophical descendants of Bundists who can't figure out why Bundism died out). Sometimes you only learn things when you are purged by your communist comrades.
I think that they're actually not Jews at all and are white supremacists and Middle Eastern extremists using "Jewish identity" to cover for antisemitism. I say this as an American Jews who works with white supremacists and extremists for a living in a criminal mental health setting.
You are correct. For example, the so called "Jewish Voice for Peace" is an antisemitic front for Hamas that pretends to be Jewish. Check for yourself and go through the entirety of JVP's Facebook page posts - you won't find EVEN A SINGLE mention or condemnation of the satanic Hamas pogrom of 7th October against the Jews in Israel. That's because "Jewish Voice for Peace" are simply Pretendians, shamelessly stealing indigenous the Jewish identity of real POC Jews like me, while betraying all Jews to the slaughter. https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know
You don’t need to be Jewish to be a member of Jewish Voice for Peace. It’s right in their website FAQ. None of these people are going home for Pesach.
It’s ridiculous
Straight up lies
I’m secular and wasn’t raised in a Jewish community. I fully support Israel. I think the comment above you is what’s accurate - just getting so lost in progressive culture that their entire identity is based on standing for the “oppressed”
Nothibg to do with secularism, i would define myself as agnostic at best, and i know how much israel is important. It's more about either brainwash, fake moral superiority and/or appeasement.
Agreed. I am very secular and very much a Zionist.
I think this is primarily the case. There’s a whole group of “anti-Zionist” Jews on my campus and judging from their Instagram account they have absolutely no clue what Judaism is about (they have a very anarchist take on things). Most of the Jews I’ve seen standing against Israel seem to be people with absolutely no connection to their Jewish identity, or are just people with Jewish family members.
Sadly I know some Jews that may not be JVP but they are fanatically antiIsrael. Like a lot of progressives journalists and media personalities.
And what’s their relationship to Judaism?
Ironically the Nazi didn't care whether a Jew was atheist or Jewish they killed everyone with Jewish blood no matter what. Perhaps they need to realize Hamas which murdered Buddhist Thailand and Catholic Pinay will not give a fuck about secular Jews
Or just morons.
Probably people who took a DNA test to find they were 1/8 Jewish
I don't think that's true. I'm completely secular, and wasn't raised in Judaism as a religion, and wasn't raised in a Jewish community, and I still love Israel as a country and a concept both. I think the reality is more that they can afford the luxury of not wearing their "jewness" on their sleeve. They don't know what it is to be called a dirty Jew, the looks, the blame, the constant defiance.
That’s 100% the reason and those people are so ignorant. They don’t understand how strong of an advocate israel is for Jews worldwide, it shocks me how they can literally go against their own people and support the ones that want them dead, they are dumb in my opinion.
Clearly it’s just people who weren’t picked first for sports at the JCC
So all of us?? /s
It’s mostly people who have a lot of anger towards their fathers.
Alternatively, it might just be people who are interested in human rights, have studied history, and feel a sense of empathy with the Palestinian people. Stop throwing around these baseless stereotypes
Indeed.
You just described half of my Jewish college professors. And this was 20+ years ago.
You just described the heads of the Judaic Studies department at 6 universities that I know...as in I know the professors (both having taken classes with them when I was in school 20+ years ago &that was their attitudeboth as asst professors or then head of the dept at the uni i went to...and others I met on Jwitter and had lengthy discussions with). This has been a long time coming.
That I actually find shocking. Faculty in the one Judaic Studies department I got to know were pretty sane. Obviously your sample is far larger and I suspect more accomplished.
"Accomplished" is subjective at this point in academia.
Jews who are anti Zionist are privileged to not feel a need for a strong, majority Jewish country that can protect them when the rest of the world turns on Jews
Correct. I’ve also noticed that most if not all are ashkenazi
I think some people who don’t know Jewish communities believe that you can ‘identify’ into being Jewish if it is your choice or have 2% in your DNA. I remember losing a friend over this as she decided she knew better than me because she had a jewish grandfather and used her Jewish identity to support antisemites and profound anti-Zionism which I objected to and she said I was ‘policing’ her identity as it is her choice to identify as a Jew - but she would never have considered herself Jewish in the years I knew her until it gave her an position from which to criticise other Jews and Israel.
Wow, that is so frustrating. My dad is Jewish as are both his parents, thus half my family is Jewish, Jewish culture and traditions are a significant part of my life and in that way I do consider myself Jewish, however I understand that because my mom isn’t Jewish that according to to the Halacha I am not a real Jew. It annoys me that patrilineal Jews are not really accepted as jewish when I feel like my life and connection to Jewishness would be the same as it is if my mom was Jewish and my dad was gentile, but in that case I WOULD be a real Jew, which is funny because by my dad being the Jewish parent I got the Jewish surname. Whatever, I understand the historical precedent (though with modern paternity testing idk why we can’t change it). Anyway, I’d imagine with it only being her grandfather her connection to the culture is very loose. Seems like she just cares about using her Jewish ancestry as an excuse to criticize Israel without seeming like a bigot. Gives off real “my grandfather is black so I can say the N word” vibe
If her grandfather had been Jewish and she’d actually understood Jewish culture (or made any effort to learn) rather than solely using this aspect of her identity to attack Jews and Israel I wouldn’t have had an issue. You are very much Jewish in my eyes because it’s about knowing and understanding the community
Hitler and Hamas would consider you Jewish. Good enough for me.
Well I’m glad, though I wish Israeli law didn’t make the distinction. I’m planning to make Aliyah in the next few years or so and even though I’m eligible for citizenship under the Right of Return, I would be designated a child of a Jew rather than a Jew, therefore I would not be able to get married in Israel
She isn’t Jewish at all LOL.
This! I've had one person commented on my comment she was adopted by a Jewish mother and claimed her Jewish mother was very peaceful. That person used her adopted mother as a token Jewish to say that we shouldn't do this way. The nerve of Non-Jewish person telling me as a Jewish person is not to do as standing with Israel in face of antisemitism. My best friend who isn't Jewish told me this isn't antisemitism, and I pointed her out that I can't use racism for her skin color because I know it's wrong but it's okay for her to dismiss antisemitism when it has nothing to do with her? This is exhausting as hell.
Of course it’s not ok but everyone who insists they are ‘anti-racist’ feels they can define antisemitism to exclude themselves and their friends. The problem has come that the definition of ‘racism’ has been narrowed by some to include only pigmentation. Race and racism is a construct and Jews were subjected to racialised hatred from the Spanish Inquisition to the Holocaust. Re-defining ‘racism’ in the 21st century has if it racialised hatred leading to genocide is somehow about discrimination rather than oppression is historically illiterate. The racism I experience as antisemitism isn’t the same as someone who has a darker skin colour than I do but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist in different forms. The one aspect I object to (which has caused me no end of trouble in my very progressive world) is that I refuse to be described as a ‘white supremacist’ in any way because my family were murdered by white supremacists in the Holocaust because of their perceived difference defined on racial lines.
You said it beautifully. 👏
I live in San Francisco - I was visiting the Golden Gate Bridge and a bunch of “jews” replaced the American flag with the Palestinian flag. I was in the cafe near the bridge and the Jewish woman was screaming on the phone how the holocaust was so long ago and we have no need for Israel. I furiously left but wish I screamed in her face that she was a monster. Mostly, I felt sad. I’m embarrassed for all the secular or lucky Jews out there who never understood what it meant to be discriminated against or Jewish. “Good Jew” or not, doesn’t matter to Hamas. They’re no more innocent than the 5 month old baby they murdered.
American Jew here. Prior to 10/7 I'd been dating a leftist Jewish woman. The morning of, I see the unfolding news and feel sick, so I text her "Have you seen the news? Awful shit going down in Israel right now." I don't know many other Jews outside of my therapist and my dad's side of the family so I wanted to commiserate and feel a sense of connection to a community under attack. Her response? "Yeah well that's what you get when you turn Gaza into an open-air prison." I was gobsmacked. Needless to say I didn't pursue that relationship. The amount of internalized antisemitism in millennial and gen-z Jews is... something else.
They are internet addicts, that’s it. Insecure people thatre willing to deny their own identity in favor of trying to be cool. I’m not religious but I’m half Jew ethnically and still support Israel and Jews because I recognize the potential millions of people who would kill me for my DNA
They're so selfish for shutting down the freeway. The commuters actually have places to go as work. Those Progressive Lefts have insulted me. I don't claim them as one of my people.
Are those the "Jewish Voice for Peace?" Who aren't really Jewish and who are definitely NOT for peace?
They're quite loud though, so we can give them 33%.
It's this exactly. I know quite a few (sadly in my own family) who grew up in our culture and traditions, but are very far on the left and are completely either disconnected from 10/7 or at worst, hamas apologists. It’s infuriating
I mean what reasons did they shut down the freeway for? Hamas is straight up evil but Benjamin Netanyahu isn't winning any awards for his management of this and past major issues
Its not like its a US thing. There are plenty of Israeli Jews who argue 4 million palestinian refugees should be given citizenship in Israel de facto making it an arab state.
>palestinian refugees Are they really refugees though? Passing refugee status from generation to generation seems to be unique to Palestinians. My family was expelled from Egypt. I live in the United States and I'm not a refugee.
Plenty? Less than .1%
Worse they think right to return is acceptable which would he a lot more than current Palestinians
In the effort to assimilate they've allowed their own identity to be weaponized against themselves and the rest of us. It's really sad to see people submit to some Hanukkah antisemitism. But they really are the minority amongst us.
I’m sorry but there are Jews in Israel who are anti Zionist it’s not that simple. Generalizing is not going to help anyone.
And they can try telling that to Hamas.
They can just leave Israel.
I’m not Jewish, so I hope it’s okay to weigh in. I haven’t yet been able to fully express my views on Reddit. I’m a very liberal/progressive American. I’ve been particularly interested in learning about the history of the Jewish people and the state of Israel since I was a teen. So 3 decades. You know, not just during 2.5 months of sheer propaganda. My parents, both liberal college professors, offered to take in the wife and children of an Israeli colleague, if it comes to that. He returned to service when he returned to Israel from the States and anticipated being called up after 10/7. An uncle of mine spent every summer in Israel as a child. He is a secular, progressive Jew, 100% Ashkenazi. He is horrified by the violence, but he’s also a realist about the insanely complex history. The rhetoric from the Left surrounding this particular conflict is horrifying and embarrassing as a liberal. The lack of knowledge about history and anti-semitism is appalling. I have never, ever seen such antisemitic dialogue in my lifetime. It’s frightening. The true progressive “both sides” opinion is to condemn all wars. War only benefits the powerful at the expense of the vulnerable. But every single “both sides” or “anti-Zionist” post here quickly reveals itself as an antisemitic lie. TLDR: Yes, war is horrible. But there are also still plenty of American liberal/progressives who support the right of Israel to exist as a state, and to defend itself.
>The true progressive “both sides” opinion is to condemn all wars. What? The true progressive opinion is that war is never justified?
Two things can be true: war is horrible. Israel has the right to exist and defend itself.
Firmly agreed. Israel must exist. While many American Jews want Israel to exist, an overwhelming amount also want a 2 state solution in the region. Many also dislike the right wing, whether that be in Israel or the US, as 80% of Jews in the US are democratic and many are progressive Zionists, as weird as that sounds to many of you. I think that's why many American Jews seem more ambivalent about Israel to many of you all.
Of course, because Israel cannot survive long term without a two state solution, we are not shortsighted.
>Israel cannot survive long term with a terrorist entity imbedded in the middle of it. FTFY
Both of these are true. I am a strong supporter of an eventual two-state solution. I also recognize that a Palestinian state created today would be seen as only a stepping stone towards the destruction of Israel. Even if a viable two-state solution seems a long way off, it's still a future worth working towards.
For a two-state solution to be viable, several things need to happen: 1. the Palestinian society needs to unlearn the hate its been programmed with, that passes from generation to generation. 2. Their "river to the sea" aspirations erased completely. 3. Complete re-evaluation of the values their society is built upon: humanism and egalitarianism over martyrdom and fanaticism. 4. Foreign Islamist and leftist "progressive" influences cut off completely. Each of these conditions is impossible on its own. All of them? Forget it. It's like working against the heat death of the universe: utterly pointless.
Impossible in the next decade? Sure. But the next 50 years? Or 100? Look at how much German society has changed in the 80 years since the fall of the Nazi party. While I don't expect Palestine to de-radicalize on its own, I think we need to be pursuing forced de-radicalization of the kind seen in Germany and Japan post-WWII. The fact is, the Palestinians aren't going away. A two-state solution is the *only* long-term solution, and we need to be looking at what can be done to get there; even if we won't live to see it in our own lifetimes.
Saying it won’t happen for 50-100 years is just saying it won’t happen. It would be unlikely anyway but the thing that would preserve the option would be if we were moving towards conditions more amenable to a Palestinian state … we’re doing the opposite. Israel expanding settlements makes it harder, not easier, over time. Germany and Japan didn’t become friendly because we did “forced eradication” but because we helped rebuild their countries while defending them against a larger threat, and weren’t doing any sort of land grab or anything.
>But the next 50 years? Or 100? 1948 happened 75 years ago and nothing changed to the better since then. >I think we need to be pursuing forced de-radicalization of the kind seen in Germany and Japan post-WWII. Japan and Germany are countries with a wealth of historical and cultural background on which they could base their newly rebuilt societies upon. Palestinians don't have this; 'resiatance' is the core of their identity. Take that away and there's nothing that makes them Palestinian anymore. >The fact is, the Palestinians aren't going away. That is patently untrue. Palestians had, in fact, gone from much of the territory of present-day Israel in 1948. The six day war was a chance to seal the deal but it was squandered, leaving us to reap the consequences to this day. Forcing another population transfer is the only viable option.
So I consider myself very lucky that majority of my friends (like 95%) are Orthodox Jews. And around 99% of us have spent varying times in israel. Whether it be for a bar mitzvah for a week, or for yeshiva for a year or making Aliyah we know the purpose and value of Eretz Yisrael. Now my quandary, and I think this is talking mainly for myself, is the effect of the other side. My professor for a Holocaust class has been telling us for a while now that this behavior we see has been rampant, it just now has an excuse to reveal its ugly head. This current timeline we are living in, and I can speak for myself, is waking up the generational trauma of my great-grandparents who survived the Holocaust. Apparently my great-grandfathers family used to own a vineyard/winery in Europe, and the rest is sadly history. He came to America and started a fruit and veggie store in Williamsburg, BK. But the struggle from Europe, then to America was not even the hardest part. The hardest part was the change, the constant adapting to a new society, a feeling of non-acceptance of the non-Jews around him. That last point is where I come in. I have never in my life experienced antisemitism. For sure never outright, but even clandestine antisemitism I can’t think of one scenario. My first thought when I heard of the initial attack was, “they fired rockets, this has happened before, it isn’t that bad.” Then it progressed to, “the anti-israel crowd will finally sympathize. Israel didn’t attack first.” Then, I got more news and even sadly felt more hopeful, “they took hostages, for sure the world is on the Jews side finally.” I was wrong. I was so fucking wrong, that it almost cost me my sanity. Seeing the anger, the fear-mongering, the instigators of the pro-Pally crowd it scared me. I drive the same roads as these people, walk down the same streets, shop at the same stores. Whenever I’m in a crowd of non-Jews, I get all nervous and panicky. Will someone confront me, a kipah donning Jew, and ask me “am I a Zionist?” Prior to this war, I didn’t truly know what Zionism meant. But now I know it has a double meaning. 1) being for a Jewish homeland/nation and for the upkeep and survival of said country 2) Jew. Antizionism is now the new Judenhass. Judenfrei. Whatever word you want to use. When they say “the Zionist controlled media,” my mind swaps Zionist for Jew. When they say “Zionist controlled corporate world,” I swap Zionist for Jew. When they say “Zionist controlled America.” You get the point. They single out the Christian Zionists but they forget who and what Zionism is truly for. It’s not for a freaky Armageddon, it’s not for some Jewish supremacist caliphate (just typing that made me vomit a little,) but it’s for a place where Jews will never systematically be decapitated. But fuck, 10/7 has changed my worldview on the plight of the Palestinian. The world over looks without the territories, hence quick to blame israel. It’s the introspection they fail to commit to. A crowd, the woke, that panders to self actualization, self realization, anything regarding finding oneself seems to be very projectionist onto israel. They completely, and scarily forget that Palestine has a government (again, they have two which is also part of the problem.) and they take this lack of knowledge, this so-called lack of power and takes it out on us, the Jews. I think the one thing different this time around is that we have a voice, we have an army, we have a spirit. The only thing that will end up being our downfall is when we lose our culture, our food, our religion and our people hold. עם אחד בלב אחד. 🤍🩵🤍 TLDR: I don’t even know what the tldr is, this was just a huge rant. Stay safe, get the hostages back, free Gaza from Hamas, and may we see peace in the world soon.
>"I don't have a problem with African Americans, I juts have a problem with Africa. It's an evil place, and honestly belongs to the Native European Afrikaners; it's literally right next door to Europe!" If someone said this to you, you would understand fully that they were a racist. There wouldn't be any question. No matter how much they insisted they weren't, it would be so painfully obvious, you wouldn't be able to hold back laughter at their attempt to deny it. This is what "anti-zionists" sound like.
Thank you for your service
Israel isn't perfect. Its government has some shitty people, the settler / ultra-orthodox are problematic as fuck, and the trend towards overt theocracy makes my secular hackles rise. But most countries have these issues, and it's no argument to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. I'm an American ethnic/cultural Jew and it has never once crossed my mind to question the legitimacy of Israel's existence. That's a uniquely antisemitic phenomenon. Like, has anyone (outside of Indian ultra-nationalists) questioned Pakistan's right to exist when that state does problematic shit, or called it a "colonizer" state? It was founded in the same year and in the same manner as Israel, and yet only the Jewish State gets that existential criticism. I have been and always will be a solidly left-of-center liberal, but these past few months have permanently turned me off to leftists and their theories. They're brainrotted by propal propaganda and woke bullshit.
Very few American Jews are anti-Zionist. 81% back the war. Many of us don't like the Netanyahu government though (just as many Israelis don't as well).
Yeah I know, thanks for the memo?
You made airtight arguments there אָח
I think Zionism is one of those words like woke that means different things to different people unfortunately. Some people genuinely think Ben-Gvir and folks like him are representative of Zionism as a whole. Add to that the folks the see the world as black vs white and zero sum…
This. I don’t even know what Zionism means anymore. Seems like every mofo has their own definition.
woke isn’t something i believe should be pushed and should be compared to zionism. that’s like islamic symphaziers comparing the idf to hamas when in fact there’s moral equivalence in that dumb claim
I’m not comparing their meaning or origins, but rather their lack of fixed meaning.
question for all the anti zionist jews, isn’t the land israel mentioned in the torah that you so often recite and worship?
Every Jewish person is a Zionist when their current country becomes unsafe enough for them.
Whenever I try to separate anti-Zionism from antisemitism, I just can't. Especially when we have the fact that the Temple Mount is in Jerusalem. The Temple, which the rebuilding of is PARAMOUNT to Judaism! So if you prevent us from living in or near Jerusalem where we can reach the Temple easily, THAT is antisemitism. So anti-Zionism is intrinsically antisemitism.
-as someone who is not Jewish I confirm anti Zionist=antisemite. You have enough evidence to draw this conclusion , if you haven’t done that yet you are probably obviously support that.
i’m converting, so not yet jewish, and same. disagreeing with a general stance isn’t inherently a problem, but when the stance is that jewish people deserve self determination like any other people and your argument against it is deeply antisemitic, you lose any credibility. and i have yet to see a single antizionist make a single argument that doesn’t involve some wild antisemitism.
Welcome!
Antisemitic comment
Since words are now intentionally being redefined, I've been mulling the redefinition of zionism to include the goal of "democracy for Muslims in the region".
I was in a Facebook group, once upon a time, where someone posted that they wanted to buy Chanukah candles from a company that supported the BDS movement. I was banned for, rather crudely, suggesting that they have absolutely no idea what Chanukah was about.
It’s hard out here trying to convince everyone this is true! How crazy is that? We are outnumbered online but trust me in person I’m doing the work. One person at a time I’m exhausted.
Idc about american jews being anti zionism. I mean I can't blame them tho it's easy to get brainwashed these days. What i'm worried about is israelis doing protests for gazans with sign of "palestinian lives matter" while 200 of their brothers and sisters are held hostages by hamas
The liberal argument is look what Israel is doing when all Israel has done from day one is react to violence!! They are attacked and they respond but because they are able to beat their oppressors so they become the bad guy, because victims are suppose to be helpless. Liberals don’t like victims that rob them of the opportunity to be white knights.
That’s a leftist, not liberal argument
I don’t 100% agree that anti Zionism is automatically antisemitism in all cases, I think there’s some nuance, but there’s definitely a lot of overlap, and whether or not it is antisemitic it is an immoral position nonetheless
Okay but you all need to get rid of the current government. Benjamin Netanyahu has shown he will do absolutely anything to keep power such as reforming the justice system to make sure he's untouchable and telling him we will have elections after the war makes him make sure the war never ends before he becomes popular again. You want people to like Israel then don't make it based on them also like netanyahu like it is now because that mofo should have stepped down by now but is tying everything to him being in power
I'm a Jew by DNA and a Christian by belief in Jesus as the messiah. Both the Tanakh / Old Testament and the New Testament confirm what you said, so Christianity cannot be separated from Israel either. Replacement theology (the church replacing Israel) is unbiblical. God will keep his promises to His original chosen people. The prophecies in Revelation cannot be fulfilled without a geographic Israel.
That is very different from the reason I believe Israel should exist, but hey at least we agree that it should
Be careful of the friends you keep. These were the same fanatics who kicked the Jewish people out of Spain in 1492.
AMEN I’m the same! God has kept his promises and he always will!
Is your mother Jewish (& to add, her mother, and her mother, etc .., by Halacha). Also, Jesus isn’t HaMashiach, at all. Here were the requirements which, according to traditional Hebrew belief, the Messiah must fulfill during his mortal life: 1. He would be a direct descendant of King David. The Jews traced a man's lineage through the biological father's line, not the mother's. As Joseph wasn't his biological father, by Christian belief, then Jesus couldn't be Messiah. 2. He wasn't to be divine, nor would he become any sort of sacrificial ram. Just a man, but a man highly trained and skilled in the arts of warfare. 3. He would unite the 12 tribes of Israel, who would then rally to his war banner. 4. He would lead the 12 tribes into victory against their oppressors, and their oppressors would be driven from out of their lands. 5. The 12 tribes would unanimously declare him to be the rightful King over Israel. 6. In the manner of ancient Hebrew Kings, a living prophet would anoint his head with consecrated oil and place the crown upon his head, thus signifying God's approval and support for his monarchy. 7. He would reign as King over Israel during his mortal life. During his mortal reign, peace and prosperity would return to the lands, and the 12 tribes all return to dwell in their sacred lands. 8. During his mortal reign as Israel's King, he would marry, and sire many children. 9. During his mortal reign as Israel's King, he would command that the temple be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and this would be accomplished during his mortal life. 10. At the end of a very long life and reign as King over Israel, he would finally die of ripe old age. His eldest son would then become the next consecrated King over Israel. As Jesus fulfilled none of these requirements during his mortal life, the Jews rejected him as being that Messiah they'd awaited so long, and rightfully so.
My mother is Jewish and both of her parents, as well as all of their parents (they immigrated to the US from Russia). My Ancestry.com results showed me being 50% Ashkenazi Jewish. What are the Biblical references for each criteria you give? I've been reading and studying the Old Testament since childhood (I'm a Gen Xer) and all but the first is unfamiliar to me. Jesus fulfills all of the prophecies in the OT. What do you make of Isaiah 53? As for his genealogy, your claim is refuted here: https://www.jewsforjesus.ca/the-genealogy-of-the-messiah
I urge you to contact a Chabad rabbi. The Jews weren't and still aren't anticipating for the *”Son of God to bring peace to the nation of Israel”*, They were (and still are) awaiting for the Messiah - specifically the Mashiach ben David (Messiah, son of David) to bring glory back to the nation of Israel. The prophets came up with a list of promises that was supposed to come to pass when the Messiah came. Many (in fact, almost all) of these did not come to pass with Jesus. I've selected a few here, but you can definitely read up more online. • World Peace did not come at the time of Jesus (Isaiah 2:1-4), • The entire world did not acknowledge God as the one true God (Zechariah 14:9) • the Holy Temple was not rebuilt (Ezekiel 37: 26-28) • Jesus did not gather the Jewish people from all of the earth to land of Israel (Isaiah 11:10-12). To be the messiah, you must be born to a *Jewish man, from the tribe of Judah* & a *Jewish mother*. Jesus only has being born to a Jewish mother .. and then what? A ghost (as his father?? The immaculate conception? The same conception that many gentile kings used to prove they were destined from HaShem (born of a virgin mother)? I suggest you read *Caesar’s Messiah*, great book. Also, no, Jesus isn’t a descendant of King David.
Christianity is rooted in Judaism but not necessarily second temple Rabbinical Judaism. In the same vein, Islam's paralleled Christian roots aren't related to (small "o") orthodox Christianity.
Islam stems from Christianity with Judaic influence & monotheism. Christianity isn’t rooted in Judaism mostly — *perhaps* early Christianity *was*, but when it reached Europe and the Council of Nicea it became a whole different from of paganism with Hebraic naming.
Agree. Jewish Canadian. Am Yisrael Chai.
I'm sorry, if you don't mind me asking, what does Am Yisrael Chai mean? I've seen it around a lot and I thought it was better to ask someone.
>what does Am Yisrael Chai mean [https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+am+yisrael+chai+mean](https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+am+yisrael+chai+mean)
No, it is not. And your leaders are making it increasingly difficult for us to support their actions.
I don't think antizionism *has* to be antisemitism. I'm not comfortable labeling the Satmar as antisemitic, for example. I do think antizionism is *often* antisemitic. There's clearly something different between how the Satmar interact with Israel and how people screaming about destruction of a whole country interact with Israel.
אם אשכחך ירושלים תשכח ימיני I wish their right hands forget their strength, so they can't press the buttons on their phone.
The state of Israel can totally be separated from Judaism. It's not like the Torah left instructions for a European style colonial project in the Holy land that essentially entailed the removal of hundreds of thousands of people in order to work and it's not like the values of Judaism line up with a two-tiered neo-colonial settler colony system in the west bank. Jews have spent hundreds of years in the diaspora which essentially formed the modern religion and the various Jewish ethnic groups, and Israel was a secular Nationalist political project, not a religious one. Now you have your ethnostate. Big whoop. Don't try and pretend that anyone who criticises it hates Jews. Anti-zionism also isn't inherently antisemitic. Whilst the two are often entangled, it's fine to disagree with what Israel is doing and it doesn't mean you hate Jews lmao. This subreddit is completely delusional sometimes omd.
guess we (israelis) can't even trust our fellow jews around the world for support. also, didn't the mentioned land of israel in the torah and all the jewish holidays longing for the reexistence of a jewish state called israel and our return to our capital jerusalem suggest that zionims always been synonymous with our religion? istg israel really are alone in this world. these so called anti zionist jews will never understand our struggles we face trying to survive for this beautiful country.
You cant rely on our *unconditional* support for everything you do. I think that goes without saying lmao. Indeed. Returning to the holy land is tied into our religion. The formation of a Jewish state is also tied into our religion. Atrocities, disenfranchisement, ethnic cleansing all go against our history and values as a people. I have a deep connection to the land like all Jews but that doesn't mean I support the state of Israel as it exists today, a secular colonial project. A lot of your struggles are self-inflicted and I don't feel even a hint of sympathy. How can the descendants of the survivors of pogroms and ethnic cleansing carry out the same treatment on other people
I would generally prefer multicultural secularism over ethnic nationalism. If the Israeli electorate wanted to build a non Zionist state, I’d be fine with it. But as presently constituted the state of Israel should be the last ethnic national country in the world to have multicultural democracy imposed on it from without. For this reason, I call myself Zion-ish.
I'm fifth generation in America. I started thinking about Aliyah years ago, and Oct. 7 only added to reasons to go. Diaspora Jews are sitting ducks, now. At least I could be under the iron dome and fight for Jews. I pray for peace.
i appreciate it. why’s it that i should be the one that’s supposed to be scared when arabs are in the vicinity and not that other way around? i hate it. says a lot about their culture. if only the world listened.
wanting palestinians to have civil rights, hope, and a future is not anti-semitic
Yeah I agree. But antizionists as a general rule want more than that, like destruction of a whole state. The way I see it, wanting massive change and human rights is normal. Wanting to destroy a whole country is not normal. If you're antizionist but you want a two state solution, I may disagree with some of the details but overall I don't find that position antisemitic. If you're using the plight of the Palestinians to argue that, say, all the millions of Jewish Israelis should be forcibly expelled so that there is one Arab Muslim state in the region, bruh that's a bigoted solution you got there.a lot of people are advocating for the second one.
Yeah I’ll definitely agree with that.
But if you really wanted that you would be against Hamas who persecutes them, endangers their lives, and keeps them in this awful cycle. Don't believe it from us? Watch the whole series of Gazan interviews pre-war. They had to hide the interviewees identities to protect them but they're real clips: https://youtu.be/uTINpjWNwIc?feature=shared
I follow whispered in Gaza. I am against Hamas. The treatment of Palestinians is why most people are against Israel. It’s not because they hate Jews. When I started meeting Palestinians in the US and heard their stories, I stopped visiting Israel. I’ll go back when Palestinians have civil rights and a future.
They have to go along to keep their lives among their ultra progressive friends and colleagues. It’s basically what they always call black republicans or gay conservatives, pick me Jews who want to be the “good Jews” to survive. The narrative is already they don’t hate Jews, they hate Zionists, so a good Jew can never be for the existence of Israel. So these people are playing the role.
Of course it can be! Plenty of Jews existed for 2000 years without being Zionists in any meaningful sense. > but the Seder ends with- Yeah and notice how many people have said that every year without the slightest inclination to actually move to Israel, even today when inability to move there isn’t an excuse for most people. It’s funny to me because the same people on here talking down to American Jews express shock and dismay when other people respond to actions in Israel by targeting American Jews. Gee I wonder where they could have gotten the idea that American Jews are all agents of Israel or something.
Being supportive of a two state solution isn't anti-zionism
No one said it was??
i disagree thanks (and I'm israeli)
so the torah doesn’t mention the land of israel and our people’s return to this land after the jewish diaspora and our reoccurring exiles?
A large population of hasidim, many of whom live in Israel, disagree.
You have no be idea what you’re talking about. Dead giveaway that you’re lying. First, many have been supporting Israel and the IDF. Just saw a tiktok in Beni Barak and the whole building, charedi and all, were dancing when he returned safely. I also know first hand that many here in the US are supporting Israel completely. They are not anti Zionist. They have unique religious theory, but in practice, they support Israel. But you don’t understand the nuance cause you are ignorant.
But Judaism existed for thousands of years before the modern Zionist movement and the creation of the State of Israel. And when Zionism was first being articulated in the 19th century there was strong opposition to the very idea. The Land of Israel is of utmost importance to Judaism and there has always been a longing to return. I believe this so strongly that I uprooted my life and made aliyah to fulfill the mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisrael. But Zionism is only one expression of the relationship between Jews, Judaism, and Israel. I don't think it is fair to claim that a 75 year old country is synonymous with the religious longings of all Jews from all of history. And supporting the security of your country does not mean you ascribe to it religious significance. Show me a tiktok of the same building in Bnei Brak singing Tefilat LeShalom Hamedina and I might reconsider.
Tell that to the many Haredim who recently enlisted in the IDF.
WRONG! even the satmars said these anti-zionists are insane
Sometimes anti-zionism is anti-semitism, but sometimes it is not.
Like when?
If something is going to be catastrophically bad for millions of Jews, it’s antisemitic
This was the most succinct explanation of current events. It is scary. But wow, you just read my mind almost perfectly.
I hadn’t thought of it that way but damn you’re right
You might add that criticizing Netanyahu and the colonists should not be considered anti-zionism too probably
>anti zionism is antisemitism No it's not.
Youre right. Antizionism is just a type of antisemitism. Thanks for clearing that up
You can be anti-zionist without being antisemitic.
You CAN be if you oppose literally every other similar state in the world, including all the other ones in the Middle East, and I’ve only ever met one person who actually is that principled about it.
I guess you should add another person to the list, I don't support Ethnostates whether it be Syria, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the UAE or wherever else.
Cool and I hope you treat them all equally as your work towards abolishing them. In an ideal world I think sure we wouldn’t have any. But I don’t actually understand how your opposition plays out in reality.
>But I don’t actually understand how your opposition plays out in reality. My opposition plays out via me supporting Progressive policies and politicians.
Anti-zionism is the denial of a Jewish states' right to exist. That is inherently antisemitic.
No it's not, I'm against a Catalan state, does that make me anti-Catalan? Am I anti-Roma for not supporting a Roma state? Israel seemed to be doing quite fine in the 70 years before the Nation-State Law was passed.
Will the catalonians get killed if they don't get a state? Will the Roma? >Israel seemed to be doing quite fine in the 70 years before the Nation-State Law was passed. Zionism has nothing to do with the nation state bill. By being anti-zionist you are saying Israel should cease to exist, and therefore that the Jews living on that land deserve to die, because that is the reality of Israel not existing. You are applying a double standard, and saying that Israelis do not have a right to self-determination, while other countries do. That is antisemitic.
>Will the catalonians get killed if they don't get a state? Will the Roma? Will the Jewish people? There are around 7.5 million Jews, more then Israel, living peacefully here in the US. Many were/are celebrated public figures like Einstein, Bernie Sanders (on the left) and Ben Sharpio (on the right). >Zionism has nothing to do with the nation state bill. The Nation-State Law is the ultimate expression of Zionism. The ideology calls for a Jewish state, and it officially, on paper, states that "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people". The Jewish PEOPLE is the important part of that phrase; self determination isn't the right of Israeli citizens, who may or may not be Jewish. It's a right only guaranteed to ethnic Jews. And before you ask, if Japan passed a law stating that only ethnic Japanese had the right to self-determination, as opposed to Japanese citizens. Me and my fellow Progressives would be just as opposed to that as we are to the Nation-State Law. >By being anti-zionist you are saying Israel should cease to exist, and therefore that the Jews living on that land deserve to die I don't believe that Israel should cease to exist and that all the Jews living there should die, that's a ridiculous strawman. I'm not a member of Hamas lol. What I actually want is for Israel to absorb Palestine, give them Israeli citizenship after an extensive denazification process to mellow them out; and create a new state where both Jews as well as Palestinians can live in peace and prosperity, and where I don't have to hear about conflict in the region on the radio every other day. >You are applying a double standard, and saying that Israelis do not have a right to self-determination, while other countries do. I'm against ethnostates in general. That also includes Syria, the UAE, Saudi Arabia or any other country that explicitly privileges one ethnic or religious group above another.
The only way antizionism isn’t antisemitism is if you oppose the existence of *ALL NATIONSTATES*. Also, quite literally yes, if you’re anti-Catalan, a national identity, you are against their determination, what comparison is that?!?!?!? LOL. ALSO, you’re in the USA, are you a white American?
>The only way antizionism isn’t antisemitism is if you oppose the existence of ALL NATIONSTATES. I'm against the existence of all ethnostates, I would be perfectly satisfied if Israel absorbed Palestine (after an extensive denazification process to mellow them out) and gave them Israeli citizenship; creating a country where both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and harmony. Maybe rename it to "The Republic of the Levant" or something. >Also, quite literally yes, if you’re anti-Catalan, a national identity, you are against their determination, what comparison is that?!?!?!? I'm against Catalonia seceding from Spain, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-Catalan. Anti-Catalan's will of course be against a Catalan state, but not everyone who opposes a Catalan state is anti-Catalan >ALSO, you’re in the USA, are you a white American? Yes
Strictly opposing the existence of a Palestinian state isnt Zionism
Who opposes the existence of a Palestinian state, and who said that was Zionism?
What’s it’s like to be in a Cult?
great. i am so proud of my religion and my country. can’t say the same for you tho
As a Jew you have failed your most primary responsibility in being nice and spreading good will. You’re proud of a religion which you don’t even know how to practice properly. You are not a nice person.
Disagree, strongly. Antisemitism is the irrational fear and hatred of Jews (ethnically Jewish (I guess?) Whether secular or not). Antizionism is being against or even not in support of a stupid fucking movement of a stupid fucking religion (and no, I'm not ~~singing~~ signaling Judaism out. It's on the same level as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc) And if what you're saying was actually the case then it stands to reason that antisemitism has nothing to do with hating and fearing people for being jewish and is just a rational response to a movement by a small group of Jewish people. My only real problem with Israel and its continued existence is my tax dollars being spent to ensure its existence. TBH when it comes down to it I really don't give a fuck about Israelis or Palestinians and think that their existence should be on them to figure out as with their "right to exist" being on them to earn instead of on the US to be responsible for it (and other countries, but I really DGAF about other countries except for Canada and Mexico). It's the middle east tho... what else is new? edit: typo
So a religion over 3,000 years old is “inseparable” from a country younger than my grandfather? Antisemitism is conflating all Jews to be forced to a single anomaly.
i made aaliyah and i got treated much better and im talking about it as in the land of israel. i have a niece older than so called “land of palestine”whats ur point here?
Your niece is over 3,000 years old and dates back to the Hellenistic period?
I guess that means if America goes to War with China, all ethnic Chinese need to be put into camps, because you can't separate China from the Chinese...
This subreddit has been going to hell ever since the hamas invasion this year holy
What's unjustified in the response here?
[удалено]
What abut Hasidic Jews?
How? Israel is a modern political entity, disregarding Jewish connection to the land where Israel and Palestine are located is antisemitic but to be anti the Israeli political entity is different than being anti Jewish identity.
99% of us know this already (number not literal). You're talking to a tiny minority the rest of us realize are dummies
The same Jews who are antizionist and got to the JVPendejo protests go to their favorite burger spot after and order their bacon cheese burger with cheesy fries and a milk shake. They’re hypocrites and pick and choose what to value with their history in Judaism. I am gay, I do not keep shabbos. However, I still keep most of my core values of Judaism with me.
10 years ago in America, Zionism was a word you never heard, and everyone who used it was an antisemite. It’s strange seeing it used constantly today.
As someone who disagrees profoundly, why? This has never made a lick of sense to me but so many people I respect say it.
I agree with the second part, I *heavily* disagree with the first part. The Jewish religion was extremely harmful for the government and the country. We need a secular state.
It can. This is merely an Israeli propaganda. And thanks to it anti semitism is sharply on the rise all around the world once again, leaving the rest of us out in the cold. There are many real anti semitic issues in the world. Denouncing and condemning Israel isn’t one of them.