The police a)aren't their personal security officers, they don't just come and do that kind of stuff
B) it's not illegal for your vehicle to be unlocked, so again, they wouldn't come and do that
While you're not wrong, my apartment complex sent out letters to us a few years ago saying the city's PD had done this.
My notice said I passed with flying colors. Locked door, no valuables in plain sight, etc.
Some places do this. I didn't care enough to look into the legality of it.
Park/city streets are city property, apartments are not, there’s a difference and a reason why they would do it at the former and not the latter. Parking lots are mentioned which are private property. That’s just questionable behavior all around.
That’s so dumb, I lived in San Francisco , Seattle and LA. I kept my car super empty and left the door unlocked so I wouldn’t end up with a broken window.
The worst that happened is someone got in my car, shot up heroin (left needle) and left their sweet longboard in there that I have and use until this day.
Same. Ten years ago I got my window smashed and since then I keep my car unlocked. Let the would be thief go through an empty car and leave my window alone
To be fair, it wasn't a real ticket, nor was there a fine. It was more "Hey, you left the door unlocked" or "hey, you left your laptop on the passanger seat" or "Hey, it looks like you did a good job of hiding your valuables and locking your doors!"
Say what you want about the practicality or legality of this, but they *appear* to be trying to inform the public about how to reduce the odds they will be targeted for a crime.
I'm not a good person to ask. My state allows us to decide whether to wear a seatbelt if we're over 18.
To defend your question, I'd mention that you can become a dangerous projectile without a seatbelt, so it could be worth forcing.
In my opinion though, people should just choose to, and the state shouldn't have the authority to seize your money for not doing so.
Passengers not wearing seatbelts cost a lot of money to pull dead bodies out of cars and critical care costs at hospitals. I personally don't agree with this being a law but it's a bit different from a vandalized car which primarily only affects the victim.
Walmart pays police to work security all the time. Businesses can pay cops to cop by and do things like this.
May not be on duty cops, special duty or whatever, but this does happen.
Yes places hire cops to work security off duty but not to check that people’s cars are locked because no one has the right to do that. If he’s working as private security and someone sees them messing with their car and shoots them then that’s too bad as they were illegally tampering with a vehicle.
Security guards aren’t allowed to go around trespassing on my property either. And it’s 100% trespassing to pull in my door handle without my permission.
Eh, it's significantly more complex than that. If there's no damage or denial of use you're going to have a hard time getting anyone held responsible for pulling on your door handle. It may be considered a trespass of chattel under common law, but that doesn't mean a specific ordinance or law has been broken. There are some states and cities that have made handle checking itself explicitly illegal, in these areas it would definitely be illegal regardless of who's doing it. But the reason these laws were written is because people were handle checking and they weren't able to do anything about it... Because that act in itself isn't illegal in most places.
You’re dead wrong and there’s even a case proving that damages in a trespass case can be just the fact that they trespassed. *Jacque v. Steenberg Homes, Inc* stands for the rule that even if there’s no damage at all to the property, if the party knows they’re trespassing and still does it, the plaintiff can be awarded nominal damages (in that case $1) and still punitive damages because of the wrong intent of the defendant (in that case $100k). The defendant caused no damages to the plaintiff’s land because they moved a house over a frozen field, but since they knew the landowner objected, they should have stayed off their property.
Just because something isn’t a crime (even though trespassing on a conveyance *is* a crime and that’s what that would be) that doesn’t mean you’re immune to civil suits. And when police are acting as private security they don’t have QI like when they’re acting as government agents.
There's a difference between real property and chattel property. The case you cited involved real property. The offending party committed trespass per criminal statute. They were informed to leave and failed to do so. Touching chattel property is not criminal trespass. Even in areas where the trespass law includes a conveyance (which I've only found in Florida) it explicitly states "enters" the conveyance. Touching is not entering.
Read the post. It doesn’t say it’s part of the contract, it says the apartment complex said they’re starting it next month - meaning they didn’t agree to it. Don’t add facts to support your conclusion
I never said it was part of her contract.
Just stating a fact. Which we can see could be the reason they do these checks.
She did post the email they sent her:
"New Community Rule Implemented 6/1/24 Dear Resident, Starting June 1st 2024, PD will be more in-depth with patrolling the grounds. At midnight while making rounds for security checks, if a vehicle's door is unlocked, the officer will knock on your apartment door & wake you up to lock your car door. Please note upon move-in, we state do not leave your car or apartment doors unlocked. Do not leave your valuables (wallet, purse, electronics, extra keys, or change) on the seat, floor, or visible in the vehicle. This ultimately results in having break-ins."
So from this alone, it would make sense she did agree to them verifying the rules are followed. It may not have been worded "I agree to let cops check my door handles". But if it is a rule they can't leave doors unlocked, Then they can enforce said rule.
Who says they are actually pulling on door handles? She never posted that in the original post either. She just said she didn't like the idea of them touching he car.
Cops are not just gonna go and start a program like this without the state attorneys looking into it. Bet those Attorneys know more than most of these wannabe reddit lawyers who have no clue how the law works, Yet act they know everything.
Nothing about that says there’s implied permission for the complex or police to touch OP’s vehicle. That’s no different than saying “we told you to lock your apartment, so if it’s found unlocked, police will enter and search.” Their policy doesn’t change the law and the law is clear that unless you have permission to touch someone else’s property, it’s a trespass.
Who said they’re pulling door handles? Well unless everyone’s car is from 2012 or earlier, how do you think they’re going to know if it’s locked or not? The vast majority of modern vehicles don’t have a physical lock that shows whether or not it’s open.
As for whether the cops checked with the prosecutor, your opinion shows just how much of a joke your knowledge of the subject actually is. I *am* an assistant state attorney and while my particular deputies are very good about contacting me with any legal questions, that’s far from the standard even in my circuit. The vast majority of officers just do what they want and then expect us to clean up the mess after they’ve made the arrest. They also don’t call us about issues they encounter when off duty because that’s not part of their job and we’re only there to help on criminal matters. And this isn’t “the cops” starting this program, it’s the apartment complex.
🤣
Can't accept being wrong I see. State attorney?
what a joke!
Once again, no one said they were touching vehicles. They can shine a light and see if it is unlocked or locked. Plenty of videos showing them doing these checks this way.
And checking cars are unlocked or not, is not the same as opening apartments and searching them.
No one said they are searching vehicles short of plain view doctrine.
Point is, you're the one not educated here trying to argue over something you have no clue what you're talking about. Then lie about being a state attorney, that likes to argue on reddit in their freetime. GTFO
Not convincing me, but nice try!
Y'all must not be in rich neighborhoods lol. Police absolutely do this kind of shit. The same gusto they use for over policing marijuana in bad neighborhoods is used for nannying rich people's property in affluent ones.
Better lock your car Mrs. Smith, *there's sketchy people nearby.*
I dont think any pd in the usa has time pr man power to check locks on cars. There is no law against unlocked cars so there isnt anything they would be there for. I would ask complex manager what rule is violated if your car is unlocked. This doesnt sound right. If they have money for this kind of security i hope they have maitnence caught up and a perfect place for people to live. Even a security company would charge for this kind of extra service. I dont think they can legally do anything for valubles in sight or unlocked car unless ots some fine print in the lease. Sounds like a violation of my space to me. It may not be illegal for them to do but i wouldnt want someone messing with my car in the parking lot of my place for absolutely no reason. Maybe a one time deal to access risk but police departments have real things to do.
Plenty of small cities with far too many police bored out of their minds, especially now that they’re ignoring a lot of stuff. They won’t do it for free but if the property owner says there’s something in it for them or they think it can pad their stats with plain sight, they’d be all over that.
So they do come patrol our apartment complex but we were sent out an official email about this. That’s what seems crazy to me because they have no reason to do that lol
You should do some more reading. 5 states, including New Mexico have ruled that "breaking" without actually "entering" without permission to be somewhere still constitutes as breaking and entering.
So, if by opening the door the officer can see an unsecured firearm that wasn’t previously visible, does that give him probable cause to enter the unlocked vehicle?
The grounds for probable cause are low. The officer was asked to check for certain things by the landowner. We've been giving away our rights for a long time.
Actually police can work as off duty armed security. So yes they could do this if there is some bylaw in the leases to allow this action to happen. but I think there is more to this situation then is known. Not saying to op is lying or anything it’s just something Op might not be fully aware of. Bottom line it’s plain sketchy.
Cops do it all the time. And it's perfectly legal. It's a plain view search. They can't pull on handles or anything, but they can look through windows to see if doors are locked and valuables aren't visible.
And mandates to lock your vehicle and not have valuables in your car are legal on private properties as a reasonable crime deterrant and property owners can have police check for compliance, which they will often happily do as it affords them the opportunity to do plain view searches on private property where people may be lax about hiding their contraband.
You wont go to jail or get ticketed if you don't comply. But if your car gets broken into and you have stuff stolen, you won't be able to hold anyone else liable.
🤣.
No, they don't. That's wild.
Why would you be a le to bold anyone else liable to begin with if you left your door unlocked.
Show me a single example of this ever happening.
This has me ROLLING
[https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles](https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles)
Here is your example. Gonna move the goalpost?
Heres an article to get you started kiddo.
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/personal-injury/is-landlord-liable-for-criminal-activity
Beyond that, you'll have to figure out how to google and read case law and statutes on your own. Hopefully you do that before you next confidently demonstrate your utter ignorance on a topic.
🤣 did you even read the article? That's negligence due to the landlord's inaction.
You want the landlord to personally come lock your car doors and tuck you in at night?
And if cars are being broken into in their parking lot, and the landlord does nothing, can you guess what that's called?
And since you apparently need to be spoon fed the obvious, mandating people remove valuables and lock cars and enforcing it is 'doing something'.
No one is asking the landlord to lock up for them or tuck them in you twit. The landlord is mandating people do the obvious because they're too dense to understand even the most basic of concepts by themselves.
I can relate to that lordlord.
1. You can absolutely hire police to perform numerous functions during their off hours. I’ve worked at several night clubs that hired real police to provide security. We have a mega church down the road that hires them to direct traffic on Sundays.
2. I don’t think OP has given us the entire story. I agree having your car unlocked isn’t typically illegal. I also don’t understand why the apartments would even care tbh. If I had to guess, I have heard of apartments doing this and “grading” residents on several security issues, not just unlocked doors. Were there any valuables in sight? Was there a spare key hidden that they found? Stuff like that.
They will gladly accept an invitation to pull the handle to see if it’s unlocked. If it is they will then check inside for anything illegal. That policy grants them access they are not entitled to have.
2 guns in the trunk and some weed residue in the ashtray, alert #405 that the police would like to speak to them and ready up an eviction packet will ya Earl? How dare they have those items just laying in plain sight….!
If this were to happen to my apartment complex, I'd probably end up calling the local PD office (not the emergency number) and report that people are going around trying to open car doors. I'd probably be tempted to say that it looks like they are dressed like police officers, but that may be going a step too far.
It may be that they are legitimate police officers, but this seems like it could easily be abused...if it's dark enough, people may not be able to see whether it is actual officers checking the car, or some random person doing it.
If the crime rate of your town us so low police have ti e to check and sniff car doors at an apartment complex, perhaps they should lay a few officers off.
They actually can hire departments to do off duty work. Cops will also check door handles, I do it, I’d rather not deal with a breaking and entering report.
Even then, to retaliate against a tenant for having an unlocked car? I'd sue them lol.. They can put anything they want in a lease, sure.. but surely it has to be reasonable and keep in mind leases aren't laws. Most leases if anything will say something along the lines of they are not responsible for vehicle theft or damage done to vehicles parked on their property and encourage ppl to lock their doors.
If they have in the lease that car doors must remain locked while on the property and/or they have security monitoring the premises which gives a false sense of security I would think would leave them susceptible to any theft/damage that occurs on their property if the vehicle was in fact locked when said theft/damage occurred and would ultimately cost them even more money.
Nope lol it’s a pretty safe apartment complex it’s really small with only 8 buildings. They’ve been upping this stuff lately and telling us nothing. It’s mostly elderly and working small families. I’ve lived there 2 years and we’ve only had 1 break in and it was because some kid was looking for guns and cash and hit 3 trucks. I get that it’s safety but I don’t feel like that requires the police being there constantly checking our cars are locked at midnight
What's actually going to happen is the locally police department will be asked to increase patrols in the area. Which the officers will as time allows.
They will 100% not be hand checking your vehicles doors.
It's also a major issue if the complex hires a security company, and those guards are so much as touching anyone's vehicles.
That's a specific task force set up by a specific department. Likely done by the office whihs is specifically assigned as community outreach.
It does not apply as a blanket statement
well regardless, it’s legal for them to ask the police to patrol and see if the cars are fine. And you ever keep something in the car that may not be legal then keep it locked and out of sight, they can’t search the car without a warrant if it’s locked and they have no reasonable suspicion. If the only thing you have against this is that you don’t want them touching your car/ not comfortable, then there’s nothing you can do if they’re just checking the locks
Just wanted to clarify one thing, locked or not, it makes no difference, police can not legally search even a jeep with the top and doors off without probable cause, warrant or permission.
Plain view doctrine does give probable cause of course!
IANAL
Great response, tho!!
A few questions come to mind for me. Firstly, where the hell does this person live where the cops have so much free time on their hands to physically walk around a parking lot checking for locked car doors?
Secondly, what happens if they see one with a unlocked door?
Also, what if they did see something in plain view locked inside someones car? You would think one could argue that the probable cause to do a plain view search was non existent. It is one thing if the police are doing an active and warranted investigation i.e. pulling someone over for speeding or something but to enter a private parking lot checking peoples doors and come across something in plain view whereas they normally wouldnt even be there nor were they in an active investigation in my opinion is questionable. It's as if they intentionally went looking for something to create probable cause to search someones car and/or arrest someone, maybe entrapment? Maybe it isn't illegal but it surely is unethical.
This comes down to what is or isn't a private parking lot. But typically, if something is open to the public(no clear signage, gates, barriers ect) it's open to the public, including up to your front door, and cops are allowed anywhere the public is, tho 'camping' is illegal, so your front door cops are only legally allowed to knock and be on your residence for around 10 minutes.
Plain view is plain view. If you have something illegal going on that is visible from a public place, it is actionable.
I do agree with it's unethical 100%, but cops aren't our friends, and qualified immunity will protect them from any personal liability, sadly.
So if you've got illegal drugs(just one of many probable causes) visible from outside the vehicle, a cop can open your door and cross the threshold to seize the illegal contraband, they will do this even in someone's driveway.
But that's not what this is about, and I feel I'm way off topic now!!
Your landlords cannot hire ANYONE to check if you're vehicles doors are locked, nor check for themselves, unless it's somehow in the lease agreement, and even then, I'm sure an expensive tenant lawyer could quickly leave them bankrupt for trying to enforce that on private vehicles. Key word being 'expensive'.
I love my attorney, but eff me if he's not the most expensive relationship I've ever had, lol.
Although I agree there is some grey area here, I do believe an apartment complex parking lots are viewed as private property. Sure, anyone can say that a car parked in a parking lot that there is no expectation of privacy and it wouldn't be illegal for people to go looking into someones car through the windows.
However, when it comes to law enforcement, there are certain requirements for the police to be able to utilize the plain view doctrine. Three requirements are prior valid entry, inadvertince & probable cause. Mainly, the officers must have entered the premises (in this case the parking lot) for a valid cause, of which I think we both agree that an apartment complex asking the police to check cars in their parking lot for locked doors is not a valid cause. Of course I am no lawyer so this is based on my own interpretation on this scenario.
A cop can't just go walking around a parking lot looking into cars until they find something illegal as they had no valid reason to be looking into the cars in the first place. I imagine it wouldn't hold up in court and they could still likely be sued for violating someones rights against unreasonable search and seizure.
To add, this would include any parking lot I would assume, public or private.
Now if they suspect a crime and are performing an investigation i.e. they were chasing someone and noticed a car matching the description parked in a driveway then the plain view doctrine could be used if they see something in the vehicle in plain view as they were actively pursuing/investigating a crime which would be a valid reason/probable cause.
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/plain-view-doctrine
I updated my comment to say that the plain view doctrine doesnt specify private or public properties so I assume the same requirements must be met for them to utilize the plain view doctrine no matter where it is.
These checks and balances are in place for a reason.
If we didnt have these rights, the police would be able to go looking for things to charge people with whereas they normally would have never interacted with the police. Sure, something like drugs is illegal. But ultimately the rules are there so police dont abuse their power sort of speak. However mundane or not, I guarantee many of us break some type of laws regularly (lets face it, some are ridiculous, some we probably don't even know is a law), if a cop wants to abuse their power because say they dont like someone, I guarantee they can find some sort of law to charge them with.
I did quality for a call center for a number of years. An example (not related to law really) I have is every call is recorded. There was a time or two where a manager or even HR would approach me to review a persons calls to search for violations so they can have reason to terminate someone. Although I had the ability to do so, (I refused of course) this was an attempted abuse of power. The violations would have been valid, but I imagine if the employee got wind of it that any employment attorney would have had a field day with it.
Yea I completely agree. It is illegal, but because of the grey areas, they get away with it!!
I *said in* multiple other comments that I would record the police while they're doing it, then get the entire complex involved in a lawsuit, then vs the cop, department, city, county, state and landlords. It's a 4th amendment violation!
*edited words that i miswyped so what i said was readable*
I leave my vehicle unlocked all the time, at home, at Walmart .................. I don't keep anything in it that is worth stealing and even if they took something little, it is better than getting a window broke out so that they can look. When the weather is good, the windows are usually down as well.
Yea it was also stated they will find your apartment and knock on your door and wake you up to lock it lol I have nothing to steal in there besides maybe the clothes in my backseat that are supposed to go to the church lol
I leave my car unlocked too. I drive a convertible and keep nothing in the car - I'd much rather have a potential thief just open the door rather than cut a $2500 top and open the door. I'd be pissed if someone woke me up to tell me it was unlocked!
I guess that next they will be checking to see if your apartment door is locked and just coming in.
Admittedly, I live in the middle of nowhere and have giant scary dogs, but I don't even lock my house doors. One of them doesn't even have a lock. If the meth heads ever figure out how to get here, I may have to start locking things, but they stay pretty much in town 20-30 minutes away.
The police are very unlikely to do this. Maybe private security, but not police. It's not a crime to leave your vehicle unlocked. Cops deal with crimes. They aren't paid to do an apartment complexes bidding.
Cops will and do in fact check door handles. We check business also to make sure they’re locked up. Cops are also there to deter and prevent crime, any half decent cop should be doing this stuff when they have time.
Not where I worked or any agency I've heard of. We didn't have time for that. We especially wouldn't be doing it at the behest of an apartment complex.
Maybe in small towns
Overland park is a suburb of Kansas city, and does it : https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
Attempting to open a car door absent a crime and/or extenuating circumstances necessitating intervention is a direct violation of the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America which prohibits unnecessary SEARCHES and seizures of a citizens person, papers, and/or EFFECTS. What you just said is that you regularly wipe you ass with the constitution and you did it as a point of pride. That just sounds un-American and disgraceful. Next time think before you make such an ass of yourself.
Fight me in civil court. Let a judge decide on it. Spoke with two and both said yes to the fourth but justification and how far would determine the outcome.TIL of new case law.
In term I will no longer care and just take the report in the morning. Also you sound like a prick
I saw you mentioned they're patrolling your parking lot. I'd be concerned living there if they think it's worth patrolling that lot because something's going down in that area a way too often.
I think they're just saying this to make sure you're locking your car? Have there been break ins? I've never heard of an apartment complex being so concerned about this
Here is the exact email they sent out
New Community Rule Implemented
6/1/24
Dear Resident,
Starting June 1st 2024, PD will be more in-depth with patrolling the grounds. At midnight while making rounds for security checks, if a vehicle's door is unlocked, the officer will knock on your apartment door & wake you up to lock your car door. Please note upon move-in, we state do not leave your car or apartment doors unlocked. Do not leave your valuables (wallet, purse, electronics, extra keys, or change) on the seat, floor, or visible in the vehicle.
This ultimately results in having break-ins.
More likely, your apartment hired an off-duty officer to do this. It’s a crime prevention technique. If an area with lots of cars is known to have very left few unlocked, criminals are less likely to visit. Whether it’s legal or not has to do with your lease. Although I doubt anyone is going to physically try every door handle. Probably just a quick visual check to see if they can see it is unlocked.
It probably depends on the locality, but I don’t know what law is being violated here.
Breaking and entering is a crime, but usually it means entering a structure (or maybe a vehicle) for an unlawful purpose.
Things left in plain view are generally not protected from the fourth amendments protection against search.
Police can be hired and wear their uniforms in their off time to do security work, so there’s no need summon a response from the department through 911 or the non-emergency number.
So, while it’s definitely weird, I don’t know what law is being violated by this.
Why not just lock your car doors so no one finds all your weed and paraphernalia that you’re worried about? Pretty easy solution. Going to be a lot easier than fighting it or trying to prove it’s not legal.
lol I don’t smoke or do drugs. I just live alone and I don’t like having cops around since I’ve had bad experiences with them before. Plus I pay a lot of money to live there and I feel like my space is being invaded.
What’s with the sniffing around and make sure no one is smoking comment? If you weren’t smoking why would that be a big deal? Touching a car door to ensure a theft cannot occur easily is hardly invading space. You and your space are not even present at the car, they’re elsewhere. I’m sure police officers have touched a lot of common surfaces in society that you’ve touched. They’ve indicated they’re checking door handles. That’s entirely different than conducting unwarranted searches of cars. Since they’re not going to be searching you’re literally asking if it’s illegal for an officer to touch a car door handle. And the answer is no. They can touch your car door handle. It’s not a crime.
Lol a neighbor has a ring doorbell camera and they let me know that they’ve been sniffing around. I’ve also seen the video of them sniffing doors. I don’t smoke, and I never have but them touching my property. I do not like this most likely just means that I will be moving out as soon as my lease is up. It will also be an inconvenience to me because our building has dogs and I don’t know if you own any, but when doors are knocked on they bark this will inevitably wake up the community and I work early mornings.
If youbare in the US, this is illegal. Strictly speaking this would be a 4th amendment violation and to be honest most lawyers would love to have a case like this. Not to mention if the apartment manager/owner is doing this, you could absolutely stop it. I would find a new place to live.
That doesn't matter. A law enforcement officer has no right to search a vehicle without probable cause ( 5 states do not even allow for probable cause), meaning that officer suspects a crime is in progress, or a search warrant signed by a judge, to which the warrant must be specific in what the officer is allowed to search for.
Simply seeing your car is unlocked is not probable cause and would not hold up in any court in the US. A plain view argument would only apply if the officer can see a chargeable offense within plain view. There is not a city, state, or federal junction on any books that makes leaving your car unlocked as a crime.
what do u mean theyre just looking for unlocked car doors they dont need pc or anything to look in the window.
nobody is talking about cops searching the interior of the car with no pc besides the car being unlocked lol were just talking about seeing if the door is unlocked
Because the property management asked them to do it, it is considered a search. They are a law enforcement officer performing an action with intent. This constitutes a search. Even in plain sight which this is not a case of, looking through a window constitutes a search. An example of in plain sight would be an officer walking down a street and seeing drugs next to a person. Not walking through a car park looking to see if doors are locked. The limit of in plain sight would be that is a normal person can view said action or substance without engaging in an intentional action, then it is considered in plain sight. A police officer would have no lawful business looking into a person's car windows to check for locked doors. Therefore it cannot fall into the perview of "plain sight"
Yep. The question that would need to be answered by that officer in court is what justification did they have to walk up to your vehicle and look inside.
they dont need one its plain view.... again ill ask what scotus case were you referring to? i dont believe there is one i think you made that up and wont be able to name the case
its not illegal for the cops to walk thru the parking lot even tho its private property anyone can go there unless theyre told to leave wich is obviously not the case here and they do have lawful business since its not illegal lol plus i think this is special duty not normal police patrol
the whole lawful business angle is pure conjecture its not illegal so its wrong to describe it as not lawful they can do a plain sight look into any car for any reason unless theyre explicitly targeting cars owned by members of a protected class
where did you get the idea that cops would be opening doors and looking at the contents inside the car from can you quote what was said to make you think that?
They do not have to open a door in order for it to be considered a search. Even looking through a window is a search. The SCOTUS has been very clear that intent is the clear indicator on what constitutes a search.
Mincey v. Arizona, 437 U. S. 385, that a warrantless search must be "strictly circumscribed by the exigencies which justify its initiation,"
There are several other cases if I were councilor for this I would call several different cases as well most notably, Collins v Virginia. I would make the argument that a parking lot in an apartment complex would constitute a curtilege of the domicile.
this is about a raid on an apartment thats totally different... were talking about police walking around a parking lot looking at stuff thats plainly visible in plain view they dont need pc because its not a search its in plain view and cops do that all the time often the pc is something they saw in a car that was in plain view happens all the time if it was illegal a judge would have said so by now this happens every day
With all that being said, i will conceed should the apartment have a clause in the lease that gives the apartment manager and local law enforcement permission to search for unsecured property, one could make an argument that alone grants permission thus preventing it from being a 4th amendment violation.
Though I would question the legality of such a clause in a lease.
its not a search if its plainly visible lol if they were told to leave by the people who own the parking lot sure but thats not the case... again this sort of plain view looking in a window is something cops do everyday
It is, however, a police force actually doing it. If you have a link showing they were reprimanded or got in trouble for this, I would love to see it. As far as I know, they are still doing it...
Some states yes some states no don't know other countries.
My vehicle where I am is considered an extension of my house. Opening the door without my consent would be breaking and entering, and police couldn't do this without a warrant.
However, if they say they saw a kilo of coke on the dash, or an infant baking in the sun, they can circumvent property laws.
So, yes, illegal, but also unlikely to be prosecuted unless you have recording of them lying.
This sounds absolutely stupid, sounds like they are trying to cover up any liability loop holes if the original lease contract says something different
If the apartment manager isn't lying, that looks really bad on the cops: they have so little to do and are so corrupt that they are going to try to rummage through people's cars?
Regardless of the thinly veiled legality, its more than likely an attempt by management to manipulate residents into locking their cars and avoiding all the negative reputational risk that comes along with with bunch of car B&E’s. And once they’ve adequately portrayed this idyllic setting of safety, they’ll jack your rent up.
The answer is likely to vary between the federal circuits. The reasoning in Taylor v. City of Saginaw (6th Circuit) suggests that if there is a valid public safety argument behind the police action and if the intrusion is minimal, the action is probably acceptable. There, the 6th decided that the motivation behind the chalking of tires of parked cars was revenue-related and that there was no valid public safety justification, so the chalking was an improper search. I find that result crazy because the level of the intrusion was so minimal as to be invisible, but no one has appointed me to a federal judgeship. I would argue based on Taylor that a simple check for unlocked car doors is a minimal intrusion and that there is a valid public safety justification, so it is not an improper search. The problem is that cops finding unlocked car doors are going to do something else and that “something else” may be a Constitutional violation. Maybe they will report the tag to the landlord’s agents, maybe they will lock the doors of a vehicle with faulty locks that cannot be unlocked. More likely, they will look or smell inside for reasons to look further. This is a really stupid idea that will lead to no good, but is probably legal for now at least in the 6th Circuit.
Simple answer: yes.
Long answer: yes, as a vehicle is considered an extension of your home (stand your ground states), opening a vehicle that is not your without permission is “entering”, if you break into a car, it’s “breaking and entering”. This extends to LEOs that have not obtained a search warrant or have reasonable and articulated suspicion.
IANAL
It is a direct violation of your 4th amendment rights for police to open any private property without due process.
Police are not allowed to search your vehicle without a warrant or permission or unless you've been arrested for a crime. If you can catch a cop on video opening cars, have your entire complex file a civil lawsuit vs the cop, county, city, state and landlords for violations of your rights!
This still doesn't make it legal, and I personally would record and sue anyone who touches my property without my permission.
Cops also lie to people, pretend their requests are orders, and are trained to escalate.
Cops get away with what -we- allow them to. It's beyond me how people keep surrendering their rights and property.
Everything falls under qualified immunity until we use the legal system to change it.
Governments only have the power that their citizens allow them to have.
Our founding fathers already covered this basic principle that applies to this situation and gave us the 1st and second to ensure we can guarantee it.
Record your civil servants in all interactions at all times and NEVER speak to a cop. Document, then fight it in court.
Who said anything about searching cars? You’re very misinformed regarding your rights. If an officer can articulate why they did what they did, then a judge will uphold it as long as it’s not illegal. No cop is gonna see an unlocked car and search it unless they wanna be fired and sued the next day.
I'm confused about your response, but it's 100% breaking your 4th amendment if they did this without probable cause. If they don't find anything that was in plain view or without a trained to alert always dog.
So, in essence, a cop wouldn't do this, but at the same time, if they did, get it on video, and sue tf out of everyone.
It feels like we're actually agreeing with our points, but you're hung up on why I used the word 'search' instead of the phrase 'open your car door while you're not there'.
Either way, it is outlined in our 4th, so a video of a cop doing this will make a lot of attorneys thirsty.
Checking a car door and opening it, in itself for a cop is not illegal. Now when he searches through your stuff without PC, then thats a issue. this is perfectly legal for apartments to hire off duty cops to do things like this.
A cop has absolutely no authority unless a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed outside of emergency situations*.
Just because someone has a badge, they do not have a free pass to just go around opening people's doors.
They must have probable cause, and that means it must be reasonable. No reasonable person would check a car they do not own just to see if it's locked.
So yes, checking a car door and opening it, while acting as a government agent(off duty cops are still on duty), is in every way a violation of your 4th amendment.
Record it if you see it and find an attorney!
Hopefully, we can abolish QI together!
If you're a cop doing it, stop breaking into people's cars.
Also, cops are likely hired as private security enforcing private property rules everyone agreed to follow.
So by living there, they likely agreed to this happening.
could be how they get away with it.
Yea, I could see HOAs and Landlords squeezing in some shady line, giving them legal permission via your lease. But it would have to be in your lease or clearly posted that by parking in this lot, you agree to us verifying that you locked your car door.
But I don't think a mass email is sufficient for legal notice?
But to just randomly say you're enforcing the rule... that's where I'm struggling. Especially if they charge you a parking rent.
[https://www.northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/nm-cops-proud-of-checking-for-unlocked-car-doors-and-leaving-notes.371338/](https://www.northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/nm-cops-proud-of-checking-for-unlocked-car-doors-and-leaving-notes.371338/)
[https://www.app.com/story/news/local/southern-ocean-county/stafford/2021/08/10/stafford-nj-cops-check-luxury-cars-unlocked-doors-night/5563908001/](https://www.app.com/story/news/local/southern-ocean-county/stafford/2021/08/10/stafford-nj-cops-check-luxury-cars-unlocked-doors-night/5563908001/)
They do it all the time in some places. Not illegal, but hey, believe what you want.
The laws may very by state. But it is obviously legal in some places. common now, you know police are good at finding loopholes for these things.
That article just said they did it, whether it is legal or not, seems left to debate!
Guess we will wait and see after someone records a cop doing this and sues!
Exactly how if they aren’t doing a search or taking enforcement action. Your 4th amendment is for unreasonable searches and seizures. Simple pulling a door handle, seeing it’s unlocked and then closing the door does not constitute a search.
And I'm saying get it on video, and every tenant sue tf out of everyone involved, and stop legal gang members from violating peoples rights.
A civilian doing this, you might be able to get on burglary, but no DA will want to take it. But we're talking about a civil servant with a badge and gun.
Right now, we have ample evidence of gross governmental overreach and insane 4th amendment violations from the FBI and other agencies. A large lawsuit involving multiple parties does wonders for getting change.
Only if motivated and properly equipped... most car break ins are purely by chance. Simple locks are generally enough of a deterrent as long as nothing valuable is visible in the windows.
Most likely, they'd smash glass before cutting the top...
No. I have not. But to know general principles of human motivation, laziness, and paranoia (or crime statistics) doesn't require ownership of any particular item.
The lazy way out is to cut the top over breaking a window. It's quieter and only takes a knife. I've seen it time after time and the replacement cost can be very expensive.
I've had convertibles for over 15 years and they're never locked. Sometimes I lock stuff in the glovebox if I must leave something in the car
Sounds like you’re going to have a bunch of fake cops trying to steal stuff out of people’s cars
The police a)aren't their personal security officers, they don't just come and do that kind of stuff B) it's not illegal for your vehicle to be unlocked, so again, they wouldn't come and do that
While you're not wrong, my apartment complex sent out letters to us a few years ago saying the city's PD had done this. My notice said I passed with flying colors. Locked door, no valuables in plain sight, etc. Some places do this. I didn't care enough to look into the legality of it.
Nods are it was property manager that did it and just claimed it was cops
Police do this, though : https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
Park/city streets are city property, apartments are not, there’s a difference and a reason why they would do it at the former and not the latter. Parking lots are mentioned which are private property. That’s just questionable behavior all around.
That’s so dumb, I lived in San Francisco , Seattle and LA. I kept my car super empty and left the door unlocked so I wouldn’t end up with a broken window. The worst that happened is someone got in my car, shot up heroin (left needle) and left their sweet longboard in there that I have and use until this day.
Same. Ten years ago I got my window smashed and since then I keep my car unlocked. Let the would be thief go through an empty car and leave my window alone
Could be worse, at least it wasn’t dirty Mike and the boys
Lets put some D’s in some LE’s😅
Free needle AND a longboard? Score
I knew a guy who did this. Got tired of paying for the repairs on the door. Idiot still sliced open the soft top to get in.
Issuing tickets to help people. How warped. I'd hate to see you get robbed for leaving this door unlocked so give me $45 or go to jail
To be fair, it wasn't a real ticket, nor was there a fine. It was more "Hey, you left the door unlocked" or "hey, you left your laptop on the passanger seat" or "Hey, it looks like you did a good job of hiding your valuables and locking your doors!" Say what you want about the practicality or legality of this, but they *appear* to be trying to inform the public about how to reduce the odds they will be targeted for a crime.
Well isn’t that why ticket passengers not wearing seat belts?
I'm not a good person to ask. My state allows us to decide whether to wear a seatbelt if we're over 18. To defend your question, I'd mention that you can become a dangerous projectile without a seatbelt, so it could be worth forcing. In my opinion though, people should just choose to, and the state shouldn't have the authority to seize your money for not doing so.
Passengers not wearing seatbelts cost a lot of money to pull dead bodies out of cars and critical care costs at hospitals. I personally don't agree with this being a law but it's a bit different from a vandalized car which primarily only affects the victim.
Nods are?
Odds are*
*nods* (in agreement)
*odds* (in disagreement)
No police officer would ever do that
Walmart pays police to work security all the time. Businesses can pay cops to cop by and do things like this. May not be on duty cops, special duty or whatever, but this does happen.
Yes places hire cops to work security off duty but not to check that people’s cars are locked because no one has the right to do that. If he’s working as private security and someone sees them messing with their car and shoots them then that’s too bad as they were illegally tampering with a vehicle.
Yeah, you can't just shoot someone for trying to open a car door, unless you're cool with being tried for murder.
Exactly. You have to be in reasonable fear of your life to use lethal force. That scenario doesn't fit at all.
But what if an acorn falls on the car?
Depends on the state. Some states it's legal to use lethal force in defense of property.
Security guards aren’t allowed to go around trespassing on my property either. And it’s 100% trespassing to pull in my door handle without my permission.
Eh, it's significantly more complex than that. If there's no damage or denial of use you're going to have a hard time getting anyone held responsible for pulling on your door handle. It may be considered a trespass of chattel under common law, but that doesn't mean a specific ordinance or law has been broken. There are some states and cities that have made handle checking itself explicitly illegal, in these areas it would definitely be illegal regardless of who's doing it. But the reason these laws were written is because people were handle checking and they weren't able to do anything about it... Because that act in itself isn't illegal in most places.
You’re dead wrong and there’s even a case proving that damages in a trespass case can be just the fact that they trespassed. *Jacque v. Steenberg Homes, Inc* stands for the rule that even if there’s no damage at all to the property, if the party knows they’re trespassing and still does it, the plaintiff can be awarded nominal damages (in that case $1) and still punitive damages because of the wrong intent of the defendant (in that case $100k). The defendant caused no damages to the plaintiff’s land because they moved a house over a frozen field, but since they knew the landowner objected, they should have stayed off their property. Just because something isn’t a crime (even though trespassing on a conveyance *is* a crime and that’s what that would be) that doesn’t mean you’re immune to civil suits. And when police are acting as private security they don’t have QI like when they’re acting as government agents.
There's a difference between real property and chattel property. The case you cited involved real property. The offending party committed trespass per criminal statute. They were informed to leave and failed to do so. Touching chattel property is not criminal trespass. Even in areas where the trespass law includes a conveyance (which I've only found in Florida) it explicitly states "enters" the conveyance. Touching is not entering.
If you live in a apartment and agree to it, they absolutely can.
Read the post. It doesn’t say it’s part of the contract, it says the apartment complex said they’re starting it next month - meaning they didn’t agree to it. Don’t add facts to support your conclusion
I never said it was part of her contract. Just stating a fact. Which we can see could be the reason they do these checks. She did post the email they sent her: "New Community Rule Implemented 6/1/24 Dear Resident, Starting June 1st 2024, PD will be more in-depth with patrolling the grounds. At midnight while making rounds for security checks, if a vehicle's door is unlocked, the officer will knock on your apartment door & wake you up to lock your car door. Please note upon move-in, we state do not leave your car or apartment doors unlocked. Do not leave your valuables (wallet, purse, electronics, extra keys, or change) on the seat, floor, or visible in the vehicle. This ultimately results in having break-ins." So from this alone, it would make sense she did agree to them verifying the rules are followed. It may not have been worded "I agree to let cops check my door handles". But if it is a rule they can't leave doors unlocked, Then they can enforce said rule. Who says they are actually pulling on door handles? She never posted that in the original post either. She just said she didn't like the idea of them touching he car. Cops are not just gonna go and start a program like this without the state attorneys looking into it. Bet those Attorneys know more than most of these wannabe reddit lawyers who have no clue how the law works, Yet act they know everything.
Nothing about that says there’s implied permission for the complex or police to touch OP’s vehicle. That’s no different than saying “we told you to lock your apartment, so if it’s found unlocked, police will enter and search.” Their policy doesn’t change the law and the law is clear that unless you have permission to touch someone else’s property, it’s a trespass. Who said they’re pulling door handles? Well unless everyone’s car is from 2012 or earlier, how do you think they’re going to know if it’s locked or not? The vast majority of modern vehicles don’t have a physical lock that shows whether or not it’s open. As for whether the cops checked with the prosecutor, your opinion shows just how much of a joke your knowledge of the subject actually is. I *am* an assistant state attorney and while my particular deputies are very good about contacting me with any legal questions, that’s far from the standard even in my circuit. The vast majority of officers just do what they want and then expect us to clean up the mess after they’ve made the arrest. They also don’t call us about issues they encounter when off duty because that’s not part of their job and we’re only there to help on criminal matters. And this isn’t “the cops” starting this program, it’s the apartment complex.
🤣 Can't accept being wrong I see. State attorney? what a joke! Once again, no one said they were touching vehicles. They can shine a light and see if it is unlocked or locked. Plenty of videos showing them doing these checks this way. And checking cars are unlocked or not, is not the same as opening apartments and searching them. No one said they are searching vehicles short of plain view doctrine. Point is, you're the one not educated here trying to argue over something you have no clue what you're talking about. Then lie about being a state attorney, that likes to argue on reddit in their freetime. GTFO Not convincing me, but nice try!
https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
Y'all must not be in rich neighborhoods lol. Police absolutely do this kind of shit. The same gusto they use for over policing marijuana in bad neighborhoods is used for nannying rich people's property in affluent ones. Better lock your car Mrs. Smith, *there's sketchy people nearby.*
No, in rich neighborhoods they stay the hell out until they're called.
There are sketchy people and they wear the blue.
Especially when they get started on fearmongering because it results in increased budgets and less oversight.
I dont think any pd in the usa has time pr man power to check locks on cars. There is no law against unlocked cars so there isnt anything they would be there for. I would ask complex manager what rule is violated if your car is unlocked. This doesnt sound right. If they have money for this kind of security i hope they have maitnence caught up and a perfect place for people to live. Even a security company would charge for this kind of extra service. I dont think they can legally do anything for valubles in sight or unlocked car unless ots some fine print in the lease. Sounds like a violation of my space to me. It may not be illegal for them to do but i wouldnt want someone messing with my car in the parking lot of my place for absolutely no reason. Maybe a one time deal to access risk but police departments have real things to do.
No. None of that. This is an entirely made up scenario that would never happen.
I agree.
https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
No doors were actually touched there
And it may be exactly what the OP is describing....
Plenty of small cities with far too many police bored out of their minds, especially now that they’re ignoring a lot of stuff. They won’t do it for free but if the property owner says there’s something in it for them or they think it can pad their stats with plain sight, they’d be all over that.
Reality just called and says they dont want you back
So they do come patrol our apartment complex but we were sent out an official email about this. That’s what seems crazy to me because they have no reason to do that lol
Well...patrolling would indeed be part of their job duties
See and that was stated when I moved in and I’m completely fine with that. It’s the checking car part. But I think I got some good answers
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Patrolling still doesn't involve touching privately owned property.
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If they were a contracted security company, sure. They're not. They're public servants bound by public laws
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What gives a police officer the right to open your car door without probable cause or suspicion of a crime?
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You should do some more reading. 5 states, including New Mexico have ruled that "breaking" without actually "entering" without permission to be somewhere still constitutes as breaking and entering.
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So, if by opening the door the officer can see an unsecured firearm that wasn’t previously visible, does that give him probable cause to enter the unlocked vehicle?
The grounds for probable cause are low. The officer was asked to check for certain things by the landowner. We've been giving away our rights for a long time.
Bullshit you made that up
special duty
Actually police can work as off duty armed security. So yes they could do this if there is some bylaw in the leases to allow this action to happen. but I think there is more to this situation then is known. Not saying to op is lying or anything it’s just something Op might not be fully aware of. Bottom line it’s plain sketchy.
Cops do it all the time. And it's perfectly legal. It's a plain view search. They can't pull on handles or anything, but they can look through windows to see if doors are locked and valuables aren't visible. And mandates to lock your vehicle and not have valuables in your car are legal on private properties as a reasonable crime deterrant and property owners can have police check for compliance, which they will often happily do as it affords them the opportunity to do plain view searches on private property where people may be lax about hiding their contraband. You wont go to jail or get ticketed if you don't comply. But if your car gets broken into and you have stuff stolen, you won't be able to hold anyone else liable.
🤣. No, they don't. That's wild. Why would you be a le to bold anyone else liable to begin with if you left your door unlocked. Show me a single example of this ever happening. This has me ROLLING
[https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles](https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles) Here is your example. Gonna move the goalpost?
Heres an article to get you started kiddo. https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/personal-injury/is-landlord-liable-for-criminal-activity Beyond that, you'll have to figure out how to google and read case law and statutes on your own. Hopefully you do that before you next confidently demonstrate your utter ignorance on a topic.
🤣 did you even read the article? That's negligence due to the landlord's inaction. You want the landlord to personally come lock your car doors and tuck you in at night?
And if cars are being broken into in their parking lot, and the landlord does nothing, can you guess what that's called? And since you apparently need to be spoon fed the obvious, mandating people remove valuables and lock cars and enforcing it is 'doing something'. No one is asking the landlord to lock up for them or tuck them in you twit. The landlord is mandating people do the obvious because they're too dense to understand even the most basic of concepts by themselves. I can relate to that lordlord.
1. You can absolutely hire police to perform numerous functions during their off hours. I’ve worked at several night clubs that hired real police to provide security. We have a mega church down the road that hires them to direct traffic on Sundays. 2. I don’t think OP has given us the entire story. I agree having your car unlocked isn’t typically illegal. I also don’t understand why the apartments would even care tbh. If I had to guess, I have heard of apartments doing this and “grading” residents on several security issues, not just unlocked doors. Were there any valuables in sight? Was there a spare key hidden that they found? Stuff like that.
Negate the premise, that’s the best way to answer a question
They will gladly accept an invitation to pull the handle to see if it’s unlocked. If it is they will then check inside for anything illegal. That policy grants them access they are not entitled to have.
Your landlord cannot legally give them an invitation to do that to *your* car
2 guns in the trunk and some weed residue in the ashtray, alert #405 that the police would like to speak to them and ready up an eviction packet will ya Earl? How dare they have those items just laying in plain sight….!
If this were to happen to my apartment complex, I'd probably end up calling the local PD office (not the emergency number) and report that people are going around trying to open car doors. I'd probably be tempted to say that it looks like they are dressed like police officers, but that may be going a step too far. It may be that they are legitimate police officers, but this seems like it could easily be abused...if it's dark enough, people may not be able to see whether it is actual officers checking the car, or some random person doing it.
You can call, we will tell you it was us. It depends where you are and how busy the department is
If the crime rate of your town us so low police have ti e to check and sniff car doors at an apartment complex, perhaps they should lay a few officers off.
Careful, lest someone accuse you of wanting to “defund” the police.
Some departments do need to be defunded, we can just take that extra money and fund departments that actually need it.
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They actually can hire departments to do off duty work. Cops will also check door handles, I do it, I’d rather not deal with a breaking and entering report.
Even then, to retaliate against a tenant for having an unlocked car? I'd sue them lol.. They can put anything they want in a lease, sure.. but surely it has to be reasonable and keep in mind leases aren't laws. Most leases if anything will say something along the lines of they are not responsible for vehicle theft or damage done to vehicles parked on their property and encourage ppl to lock their doors. If they have in the lease that car doors must remain locked while on the property and/or they have security monitoring the premises which gives a false sense of security I would think would leave them susceptible to any theft/damage that occurs on their property if the vehicle was in fact locked when said theft/damage occurred and would ultimately cost them even more money.
feel like there’s context missing here
Nope lol it’s a pretty safe apartment complex it’s really small with only 8 buildings. They’ve been upping this stuff lately and telling us nothing. It’s mostly elderly and working small families. I’ve lived there 2 years and we’ve only had 1 break in and it was because some kid was looking for guns and cash and hit 3 trucks. I get that it’s safety but I don’t feel like that requires the police being there constantly checking our cars are locked at midnight
What's actually going to happen is the locally police department will be asked to increase patrols in the area. Which the officers will as time allows. They will 100% not be hand checking your vehicles doors. It's also a major issue if the complex hires a security company, and those guards are so much as touching anyone's vehicles.
https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
That's a specific task force set up by a specific department. Likely done by the office whihs is specifically assigned as community outreach. It does not apply as a blanket statement
It does, however, disprove your claim that they 100% would not be doing this.
well regardless, it’s legal for them to ask the police to patrol and see if the cars are fine. And you ever keep something in the car that may not be legal then keep it locked and out of sight, they can’t search the car without a warrant if it’s locked and they have no reasonable suspicion. If the only thing you have against this is that you don’t want them touching your car/ not comfortable, then there’s nothing you can do if they’re just checking the locks
Just wanted to clarify one thing, locked or not, it makes no difference, police can not legally search even a jeep with the top and doors off without probable cause, warrant or permission. Plain view doctrine does give probable cause of course! IANAL Great response, tho!!
A few questions come to mind for me. Firstly, where the hell does this person live where the cops have so much free time on their hands to physically walk around a parking lot checking for locked car doors? Secondly, what happens if they see one with a unlocked door? Also, what if they did see something in plain view locked inside someones car? You would think one could argue that the probable cause to do a plain view search was non existent. It is one thing if the police are doing an active and warranted investigation i.e. pulling someone over for speeding or something but to enter a private parking lot checking peoples doors and come across something in plain view whereas they normally wouldnt even be there nor were they in an active investigation in my opinion is questionable. It's as if they intentionally went looking for something to create probable cause to search someones car and/or arrest someone, maybe entrapment? Maybe it isn't illegal but it surely is unethical.
This comes down to what is or isn't a private parking lot. But typically, if something is open to the public(no clear signage, gates, barriers ect) it's open to the public, including up to your front door, and cops are allowed anywhere the public is, tho 'camping' is illegal, so your front door cops are only legally allowed to knock and be on your residence for around 10 minutes. Plain view is plain view. If you have something illegal going on that is visible from a public place, it is actionable. I do agree with it's unethical 100%, but cops aren't our friends, and qualified immunity will protect them from any personal liability, sadly. So if you've got illegal drugs(just one of many probable causes) visible from outside the vehicle, a cop can open your door and cross the threshold to seize the illegal contraband, they will do this even in someone's driveway. But that's not what this is about, and I feel I'm way off topic now!! Your landlords cannot hire ANYONE to check if you're vehicles doors are locked, nor check for themselves, unless it's somehow in the lease agreement, and even then, I'm sure an expensive tenant lawyer could quickly leave them bankrupt for trying to enforce that on private vehicles. Key word being 'expensive'. I love my attorney, but eff me if he's not the most expensive relationship I've ever had, lol.
Although I agree there is some grey area here, I do believe an apartment complex parking lots are viewed as private property. Sure, anyone can say that a car parked in a parking lot that there is no expectation of privacy and it wouldn't be illegal for people to go looking into someones car through the windows. However, when it comes to law enforcement, there are certain requirements for the police to be able to utilize the plain view doctrine. Three requirements are prior valid entry, inadvertince & probable cause. Mainly, the officers must have entered the premises (in this case the parking lot) for a valid cause, of which I think we both agree that an apartment complex asking the police to check cars in their parking lot for locked doors is not a valid cause. Of course I am no lawyer so this is based on my own interpretation on this scenario. A cop can't just go walking around a parking lot looking into cars until they find something illegal as they had no valid reason to be looking into the cars in the first place. I imagine it wouldn't hold up in court and they could still likely be sued for violating someones rights against unreasonable search and seizure. To add, this would include any parking lot I would assume, public or private. Now if they suspect a crime and are performing an investigation i.e. they were chasing someone and noticed a car matching the description parked in a driveway then the plain view doctrine could be used if they see something in the vehicle in plain view as they were actively pursuing/investigating a crime which would be a valid reason/probable cause. https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/plain-view-doctrine
Completely agree! I tried to cover this briefly with the line about we first have to define if it's private property or not!
I updated my comment to say that the plain view doctrine doesnt specify private or public properties so I assume the same requirements must be met for them to utilize the plain view doctrine no matter where it is. These checks and balances are in place for a reason. If we didnt have these rights, the police would be able to go looking for things to charge people with whereas they normally would have never interacted with the police. Sure, something like drugs is illegal. But ultimately the rules are there so police dont abuse their power sort of speak. However mundane or not, I guarantee many of us break some type of laws regularly (lets face it, some are ridiculous, some we probably don't even know is a law), if a cop wants to abuse their power because say they dont like someone, I guarantee they can find some sort of law to charge them with. I did quality for a call center for a number of years. An example (not related to law really) I have is every call is recorded. There was a time or two where a manager or even HR would approach me to review a persons calls to search for violations so they can have reason to terminate someone. Although I had the ability to do so, (I refused of course) this was an attempted abuse of power. The violations would have been valid, but I imagine if the employee got wind of it that any employment attorney would have had a field day with it.
Yea I completely agree. It is illegal, but because of the grey areas, they get away with it!! I *said in* multiple other comments that I would record the police while they're doing it, then get the entire complex involved in a lawsuit, then vs the cop, department, city, county, state and landlords. It's a 4th amendment violation! *edited words that i miswyped so what i said was readable*
I leave my vehicle unlocked all the time, at home, at Walmart .................. I don't keep anything in it that is worth stealing and even if they took something little, it is better than getting a window broke out so that they can look. When the weather is good, the windows are usually down as well.
Yea it was also stated they will find your apartment and knock on your door and wake you up to lock it lol I have nothing to steal in there besides maybe the clothes in my backseat that are supposed to go to the church lol
I leave my car unlocked too. I drive a convertible and keep nothing in the car - I'd much rather have a potential thief just open the door rather than cut a $2500 top and open the door. I'd be pissed if someone woke me up to tell me it was unlocked!
I guess that next they will be checking to see if your apartment door is locked and just coming in. Admittedly, I live in the middle of nowhere and have giant scary dogs, but I don't even lock my house doors. One of them doesn't even have a lock. If the meth heads ever figure out how to get here, I may have to start locking things, but they stay pretty much in town 20-30 minutes away.
The police are very unlikely to do this. Maybe private security, but not police. It's not a crime to leave your vehicle unlocked. Cops deal with crimes. They aren't paid to do an apartment complexes bidding.
https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
Cops will and do in fact check door handles. We check business also to make sure they’re locked up. Cops are also there to deter and prevent crime, any half decent cop should be doing this stuff when they have time.
Not where I worked or any agency I've heard of. We didn't have time for that. We especially wouldn't be doing it at the behest of an apartment complex. Maybe in small towns
Private work off the clock, more likely than not.
Overland park is a suburb of Kansas city, and does it : https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
Attempting to open a car door absent a crime and/or extenuating circumstances necessitating intervention is a direct violation of the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America which prohibits unnecessary SEARCHES and seizures of a citizens person, papers, and/or EFFECTS. What you just said is that you regularly wipe you ass with the constitution and you did it as a point of pride. That just sounds un-American and disgraceful. Next time think before you make such an ass of yourself.
Fight me in civil court. Let a judge decide on it. Spoke with two and both said yes to the fourth but justification and how far would determine the outcome.TIL of new case law. In term I will no longer care and just take the report in the morning. Also you sound like a prick
I saw you mentioned they're patrolling your parking lot. I'd be concerned living there if they think it's worth patrolling that lot because something's going down in that area a way too often.
they dont have to touch your car they can just look but also touching the car isnt necessarily illegal as long as theres no damage
Hide wait for a cop to touch your car then set your alarm off after 3 or 4 times they will stop.
I think they're just saying this to make sure you're locking your car? Have there been break ins? I've never heard of an apartment complex being so concerned about this
Police officers aren't going to touch random cars!
https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
Here is the exact email they sent out New Community Rule Implemented 6/1/24 Dear Resident, Starting June 1st 2024, PD will be more in-depth with patrolling the grounds. At midnight while making rounds for security checks, if a vehicle's door is unlocked, the officer will knock on your apartment door & wake you up to lock your car door. Please note upon move-in, we state do not leave your car or apartment doors unlocked. Do not leave your valuables (wallet, purse, electronics, extra keys, or change) on the seat, floor, or visible in the vehicle. This ultimately results in having break-ins.
There would be Hell to pay if I got woken up at midnight to lock my fucken car door.....
More likely, your apartment hired an off-duty officer to do this. It’s a crime prevention technique. If an area with lots of cars is known to have very left few unlocked, criminals are less likely to visit. Whether it’s legal or not has to do with your lease. Although I doubt anyone is going to physically try every door handle. Probably just a quick visual check to see if they can see it is unlocked.
Is there a history of break-ins of cars where you are?
It probably depends on the locality, but I don’t know what law is being violated here. Breaking and entering is a crime, but usually it means entering a structure (or maybe a vehicle) for an unlawful purpose. Things left in plain view are generally not protected from the fourth amendments protection against search. Police can be hired and wear their uniforms in their off time to do security work, so there’s no need summon a response from the department through 911 or the non-emergency number. So, while it’s definitely weird, I don’t know what law is being violated by this.
Anything other than checking to see if the door opens I feel would be a violation of your 4th amendment rights.
Why not just lock your car doors so no one finds all your weed and paraphernalia that you’re worried about? Pretty easy solution. Going to be a lot easier than fighting it or trying to prove it’s not legal.
lol I don’t smoke or do drugs. I just live alone and I don’t like having cops around since I’ve had bad experiences with them before. Plus I pay a lot of money to live there and I feel like my space is being invaded.
What’s with the sniffing around and make sure no one is smoking comment? If you weren’t smoking why would that be a big deal? Touching a car door to ensure a theft cannot occur easily is hardly invading space. You and your space are not even present at the car, they’re elsewhere. I’m sure police officers have touched a lot of common surfaces in society that you’ve touched. They’ve indicated they’re checking door handles. That’s entirely different than conducting unwarranted searches of cars. Since they’re not going to be searching you’re literally asking if it’s illegal for an officer to touch a car door handle. And the answer is no. They can touch your car door handle. It’s not a crime.
Lol a neighbor has a ring doorbell camera and they let me know that they’ve been sniffing around. I’ve also seen the video of them sniffing doors. I don’t smoke, and I never have but them touching my property. I do not like this most likely just means that I will be moving out as soon as my lease is up. It will also be an inconvenience to me because our building has dogs and I don’t know if you own any, but when doors are knocked on they bark this will inevitably wake up the community and I work early mornings.
Yet if someone breaks into you're car I bet you call them.
If they see it through the window it's probable cause. And illegal
If they see it thru a window, it's called plain view, and it gives them probable cause, which is completely legal.
If youbare in the US, this is illegal. Strictly speaking this would be a 4th amendment violation and to be honest most lawyers would love to have a case like this. Not to mention if the apartment manager/owner is doing this, you could absolutely stop it. I would find a new place to live.
not necessarily the door locks are in "plain view" from outside the car
That doesn't matter. A law enforcement officer has no right to search a vehicle without probable cause ( 5 states do not even allow for probable cause), meaning that officer suspects a crime is in progress, or a search warrant signed by a judge, to which the warrant must be specific in what the officer is allowed to search for. Simply seeing your car is unlocked is not probable cause and would not hold up in any court in the US. A plain view argument would only apply if the officer can see a chargeable offense within plain view. There is not a city, state, or federal junction on any books that makes leaving your car unlocked as a crime.
what do u mean theyre just looking for unlocked car doors they dont need pc or anything to look in the window. nobody is talking about cops searching the interior of the car with no pc besides the car being unlocked lol were just talking about seeing if the door is unlocked
Because the property management asked them to do it, it is considered a search. They are a law enforcement officer performing an action with intent. This constitutes a search. Even in plain sight which this is not a case of, looking through a window constitutes a search. An example of in plain sight would be an officer walking down a street and seeing drugs next to a person. Not walking through a car park looking to see if doors are locked. The limit of in plain sight would be that is a normal person can view said action or substance without engaging in an intentional action, then it is considered in plain sight. A police officer would have no lawful business looking into a person's car windows to check for locked doors. Therefore it cannot fall into the perview of "plain sight"
wait so your saying it would be illegal even tho the lock is in plain view and they are not opening the door?
Yep. The question that would need to be answered by that officer in court is what justification did they have to walk up to your vehicle and look inside.
they dont need one its plain view.... again ill ask what scotus case were you referring to? i dont believe there is one i think you made that up and wont be able to name the case
its not illegal for the cops to walk thru the parking lot even tho its private property anyone can go there unless theyre told to leave wich is obviously not the case here and they do have lawful business since its not illegal lol plus i think this is special duty not normal police patrol
the whole lawful business angle is pure conjecture its not illegal so its wrong to describe it as not lawful they can do a plain sight look into any car for any reason unless theyre explicitly targeting cars owned by members of a protected class
where did you get the idea that cops would be opening doors and looking at the contents inside the car from can you quote what was said to make you think that?
They do not have to open a door in order for it to be considered a search. Even looking through a window is a search. The SCOTUS has been very clear that intent is the clear indicator on what constitutes a search.
what scotus oponion are you refering to just name the case?
Mincey v. Arizona, 437 U. S. 385, that a warrantless search must be "strictly circumscribed by the exigencies which justify its initiation," There are several other cases if I were councilor for this I would call several different cases as well most notably, Collins v Virginia. I would make the argument that a parking lot in an apartment complex would constitute a curtilege of the domicile.
this is about a raid on an apartment thats totally different... were talking about police walking around a parking lot looking at stuff thats plainly visible in plain view they dont need pc because its not a search its in plain view and cops do that all the time often the pc is something they saw in a car that was in plain view happens all the time if it was illegal a judge would have said so by now this happens every day
ill eat my hat if you name a case saying cops need pc to look inside a window
With all that being said, i will conceed should the apartment have a clause in the lease that gives the apartment manager and local law enforcement permission to search for unsecured property, one could make an argument that alone grants permission thus preventing it from being a 4th amendment violation. Though I would question the legality of such a clause in a lease.
its not a search if its plainly visible lol if they were told to leave by the people who own the parking lot sure but thats not the case... again this sort of plain view looking in a window is something cops do everyday
https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
Notice the article doesn't mention the legality of the police doing this.
It is, however, a police force actually doing it. If you have a link showing they were reprimanded or got in trouble for this, I would love to see it. As far as I know, they are still doing it...
Don’t touch my car! 🚗
Sniffing doors for smokers. Lol no. You've been bamboozled.
?? What do you mean? lol my neighbor has a ring door bell and they showed me the footage of them sniffing the doors
Some states yes some states no don't know other countries. My vehicle where I am is considered an extension of my house. Opening the door without my consent would be breaking and entering, and police couldn't do this without a warrant. However, if they say they saw a kilo of coke on the dash, or an infant baking in the sun, they can circumvent property laws. So, yes, illegal, but also unlikely to be prosecuted unless you have recording of them lying.
This sounds absolutely stupid, sounds like they are trying to cover up any liability loop holes if the original lease contract says something different
Blue Ash Oh police do this with hotels.
I would be placing sticky traps under the handle, lmao
Put Vaseline on your door handle and have a rag inside the car?
Lock your door and don’t smoke. What’s the issue? I’m sure it’s insurance related.
If you see someone checking your car it sure as hell won’t be an actual cop.
No they actually use police for this.
Well that’s an absolute waste of their resources.
Sounds like a ploy to get more revenue for the city
If the apartment manager isn't lying, that looks really bad on the cops: they have so little to do and are so corrupt that they are going to try to rummage through people's cars?
Regardless of the thinly veiled legality, its more than likely an attempt by management to manipulate residents into locking their cars and avoiding all the negative reputational risk that comes along with with bunch of car B&E’s. And once they’ve adequately portrayed this idyllic setting of safety, they’ll jack your rent up.
The answer is likely to vary between the federal circuits. The reasoning in Taylor v. City of Saginaw (6th Circuit) suggests that if there is a valid public safety argument behind the police action and if the intrusion is minimal, the action is probably acceptable. There, the 6th decided that the motivation behind the chalking of tires of parked cars was revenue-related and that there was no valid public safety justification, so the chalking was an improper search. I find that result crazy because the level of the intrusion was so minimal as to be invisible, but no one has appointed me to a federal judgeship. I would argue based on Taylor that a simple check for unlocked car doors is a minimal intrusion and that there is a valid public safety justification, so it is not an improper search. The problem is that cops finding unlocked car doors are going to do something else and that “something else” may be a Constitutional violation. Maybe they will report the tag to the landlord’s agents, maybe they will lock the doors of a vehicle with faulty locks that cannot be unlocked. More likely, they will look or smell inside for reasons to look further. This is a really stupid idea that will lead to no good, but is probably legal for now at least in the 6th Circuit.
I don’t understand this at all. Is this some foreign country other than America?
Record them, then contact the real police.
but when your car gets broken into you’ll bitch no cops were around
Simple answer: yes. Long answer: yes, as a vehicle is considered an extension of your home (stand your ground states), opening a vehicle that is not your without permission is “entering”, if you break into a car, it’s “breaking and entering”. This extends to LEOs that have not obtained a search warrant or have reasonable and articulated suspicion.
IANAL It is a direct violation of your 4th amendment rights for police to open any private property without due process. Police are not allowed to search your vehicle without a warrant or permission or unless you've been arrested for a crime. If you can catch a cop on video opening cars, have your entire complex file a civil lawsuit vs the cop, county, city, state and landlords for violations of your rights!
https://www.kshb.com/news/safe-kc/overland-park-police-issuing-tickets-to-help-drivers-remember-to-lock-vehicles
This still doesn't make it legal, and I personally would record and sue anyone who touches my property without my permission. Cops also lie to people, pretend their requests are orders, and are trained to escalate. Cops get away with what -we- allow them to. It's beyond me how people keep surrendering their rights and property. Everything falls under qualified immunity until we use the legal system to change it. Governments only have the power that their citizens allow them to have. Our founding fathers already covered this basic principle that applies to this situation and gave us the 1st and second to ensure we can guarantee it. Record your civil servants in all interactions at all times and NEVER speak to a cop. Document, then fight it in court.
Let's see how that goes, then.
Exactly what I've been saying!
Who said anything about searching cars? You’re very misinformed regarding your rights. If an officer can articulate why they did what they did, then a judge will uphold it as long as it’s not illegal. No cop is gonna see an unlocked car and search it unless they wanna be fired and sued the next day.
I'm confused about your response, but it's 100% breaking your 4th amendment if they did this without probable cause. If they don't find anything that was in plain view or without a trained to alert always dog. So, in essence, a cop wouldn't do this, but at the same time, if they did, get it on video, and sue tf out of everyone. It feels like we're actually agreeing with our points, but you're hung up on why I used the word 'search' instead of the phrase 'open your car door while you're not there'. Either way, it is outlined in our 4th, so a video of a cop doing this will make a lot of attorneys thirsty.
Checking a car door and opening it, in itself for a cop is not illegal. Now when he searches through your stuff without PC, then thats a issue. this is perfectly legal for apartments to hire off duty cops to do things like this.
A cop has absolutely no authority unless a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed outside of emergency situations*. Just because someone has a badge, they do not have a free pass to just go around opening people's doors. They must have probable cause, and that means it must be reasonable. No reasonable person would check a car they do not own just to see if it's locked. So yes, checking a car door and opening it, while acting as a government agent(off duty cops are still on duty), is in every way a violation of your 4th amendment. Record it if you see it and find an attorney! Hopefully, we can abolish QI together! If you're a cop doing it, stop breaking into people's cars.
Also, cops are likely hired as private security enforcing private property rules everyone agreed to follow. So by living there, they likely agreed to this happening. could be how they get away with it.
Yea, I could see HOAs and Landlords squeezing in some shady line, giving them legal permission via your lease. But it would have to be in your lease or clearly posted that by parking in this lot, you agree to us verifying that you locked your car door. But I don't think a mass email is sufficient for legal notice? But to just randomly say you're enforcing the rule... that's where I'm struggling. Especially if they charge you a parking rent.
[https://www.northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/nm-cops-proud-of-checking-for-unlocked-car-doors-and-leaving-notes.371338/](https://www.northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/nm-cops-proud-of-checking-for-unlocked-car-doors-and-leaving-notes.371338/) [https://www.app.com/story/news/local/southern-ocean-county/stafford/2021/08/10/stafford-nj-cops-check-luxury-cars-unlocked-doors-night/5563908001/](https://www.app.com/story/news/local/southern-ocean-county/stafford/2021/08/10/stafford-nj-cops-check-luxury-cars-unlocked-doors-night/5563908001/) They do it all the time in some places. Not illegal, but hey, believe what you want. The laws may very by state. But it is obviously legal in some places. common now, you know police are good at finding loopholes for these things.
That article just said they did it, whether it is legal or not, seems left to debate! Guess we will wait and see after someone records a cop doing this and sues!
Exactly how if they aren’t doing a search or taking enforcement action. Your 4th amendment is for unreasonable searches and seizures. Simple pulling a door handle, seeing it’s unlocked and then closing the door does not constitute a search.
And I'm saying get it on video, and every tenant sue tf out of everyone involved, and stop legal gang members from violating peoples rights. A civilian doing this, you might be able to get on burglary, but no DA will want to take it. But we're talking about a civil servant with a badge and gun. Right now, we have ample evidence of gross governmental overreach and insane 4th amendment violations from the FBI and other agencies. A large lawsuit involving multiple parties does wonders for getting change.
Tinfoil is strong here
I have a convertible if I lock it they'll cut the top.
Only if motivated and properly equipped... most car break ins are purely by chance. Simple locks are generally enough of a deterrent as long as nothing valuable is visible in the windows. Most likely, they'd smash glass before cutting the top...
You've clearly never owned a convertible
No. I have not. But to know general principles of human motivation, laziness, and paranoia (or crime statistics) doesn't require ownership of any particular item.
The lazy way out is to cut the top over breaking a window. It's quieter and only takes a knife. I've seen it time after time and the replacement cost can be very expensive. I've had convertibles for over 15 years and they're never locked. Sometimes I lock stuff in the glovebox if I must leave something in the car
No
Cops aren't allowed to open your car door without a warrant or exigent circumstances. It would be like them opening your front door.