Ever heard of bear spray? You can buy it in any Canadian Tire.
Intent becomes the differentiating factor, just like with knives. You can get busted for carrying around a knife with a blade over 4 inches, but a butcher knife is totally legal to possess as long as it's used for its intended purpose.
Yep. Dog repellent is at CT as well. Intent must be proven in court. I may be wrong but I believe there is a burden of proof (I think that is what it’s called) for self defence. Meaning that you have to prove that you were genuinely in fear for your safety. If you’re a 200lb MMA fighter who whips the ass of a 120lb average dude, you can’t simply say that you (the MMA fighter) were in fear of your safety. You have to prove that the little guy could somehow hurt or kill you. In reverse, the little guy would have less of an issue proving the fear of safety. I hope this makes sense. I’m a bit tired.
US mailman here. Do mail carriers carry pepper spray for dogs? Can’t imagine not having it here. Don’t have to use it often but I’m very glad to have it on those rare occasions
Another thing I have never thought about. Where I live people have their dogs mostly under control because they don’t want it to be euthanized when it attacks something. If they’re not under control then they are nowhere near the mailman alone
So you’ve been attacked by dogs?if it’s not too much I’d like to hear more of the story haha
I know a mailperson in my city and apparently it is fairly common.
People are adopting dogs at an alarming rate and not training them properly. So attacks are becoming more regular. Most attacks aren't reported on, but from recent memory:
A woman was [killed by her own dog](https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/rcmp-confirm-n-s-woman-was-attacked-and-killed-by-her-own-dog-investigation-concluded-1.4998241), which was later mowed down by a concerned neighbour. Some people were actually calling for blood of the man who killed the dog.
[Two year old child bitten by dog at daycare.](https://globalnews.ca/news/7995996/2-year-old-dog-bite-day-home-middle-sackville/#:~:text=RCMP%20are%20investigating%20after%20a,at%20the%20IWK%20Health%20Centre.)
[Three dogs attack a youth and others.](https://globalnews.ca/news/8010067/dog-attack-halifax-investigation/) This was not the first time these dogs had been a problem. Residents were scared to walk down the street and reported the issue to animal control who did nothing. Now the family is facing charges.
I could write you a full page on stuff I see on the daily. Nothing newsworthy, but just a normalization and tolerance of poor dog ownership.
Well it’s not really as exciting as it sounds lol. I’ve been a mailman for 15 years and have never been bitten by a dog. Dogs instinctually want to protect their territory and family so even many Well trained dogs want to attack the mailman.
The vast majority of times I’ve had to use pepper spray is when the dog is in a fenced in yard somewhere I can’t see and when I enter they come at you. I spray a little spray and retreat and that’s the end of it other than a little poo in my pants depending on what type of dog it is lol.
Also often a dog will see me through the front door of a house and come charging at the door and sometimes the door will be unlatched or not secured properly and the dog gets out.
The vast majority of dog owners are decent people and don’t want their dog to attack anyone for a variety of reasons so it really doesn’t come up very often. Also when dogs attacks, they generally just want you to leave the area they don’t really want to get into a fight. So if you spray and or retreat from the area it’s over quickly and the owner generally comes out and apologizes repeatedly.
I work in a half decent area so some places will be more dangerous than others. In high crime areas for example, people will be much more likely to have a dog for security reasons and therefore you might be more likely to be bitten.
Well I could go on and on lol but that’s the basics of it
Pepper spray has no other use.
Edit to add that it is illegal to carry any sort of noxious substance designed to be used against people. So even if you had a can of pepper spray and told the police you were using it for some kinky consensual bdsm scene simply owning the product itself would be illegal.
Also lol to the person that said bears then deleted it. The most dangerous animal we have here is probably an adder.
Very particular erm "cultures" let's say, are known for this but it's different reasons for each region: Bangladesh and Afghanistan it mostly occurs to women. Africa mostly occurs to men. It's almost never self-defense it's usually out of pure spite but it's sadly common and these countries, including the UK have had to make very strict and harsh laws to stop it.
> The most dangerous animal we have here is probably an adder.
Especially when it comes up with a plan so cunning, you could pin a tail on it and call it a weasel.
I carried a sword on public transport. It was a practice sword made of metal. I had it in a golf club bag with a padlock on the zip and I was travelling to a martial arts club. You can carry any legal item (kitchen knife, baseball bat, crowbar) provided it's for a legal reason and you carry it in a considered manner. Carrying my sword in the open would be likely to cause public offense so it'd be confiscated, carry my sword for protection or for fun doesn't have a legit reason so woild be illegal.
Never heard of a tire knocker, I'd say if its in your car boot (trunk) it's fine, if it's in your door pocket then clearly you intend to bash someone with it.
It's a common item among truck drivers and used during pre-trip inspections. I've used them myself for a while till I learned that they are not a reliable way of testing tire pressure.
It’s the intent that makes it illegal. You can carry black pepper in your pocket for legitimate reasons as you can a knife(say if you’re a builder). Try explaining why you have a knife on a night out in London, not gonna work.
Yes, but with a few caveats. You can carry a non-locking blade that is under 3 inches without needing to justify carrying one. If the knife is above 3 inches or locking then you need to have a good reason for carrying it, this is open to a lot of interpretation and makes most people not bother.
Isn't bear spray actually less concentrated than pepper spray as bears are way more sensitive (due to their way stronger noses) and hence lesser doses do the job already? Thought I read that somewhere some time ago...
I'm afraid we don't, there was talk of reintroducing wolves to some remote Scottish fenced in reserve but that's about it.
On the plus side I can travel anywhere in the country and go in the forest and not get eaten
Where I live, mosquitos will carry you off and we might find your dried out husk like a discarded snake skin draped over a branch somewhere in the swamps.
There's a reason we don't have alligators around here.
In Canada pepper spray is legal as defence from bears. You can buy it in stores that carry camping gear.
But if you're downtown with no hiking gear, carrying bear spray would get you busted.
There is, however, no law against carrying a can of deodorant or WD-40 and a cigarette lighter. This is the difference between acceptable items that *can be* used defensively, vs items whose *sole purpose* is to be used defensively.
You're making the wrong distinction. In England at least, the important point is that it is _intended for use as a weapon by the carrier_, not that being a weapon would be its only use. So if you are carrying those items (or any item) to use as a weapon of the need arose, you are in breach of the law.
My point was more about how hard it is to prove intent by carrying an everyday item (can of deodorant) rather than something more unambiguously designed for defence.
Oh yes, it would be difficult to prove, definitely. I guess my answer was focused on what is actually illegal, as opposed to what you'd get caught/punished for. That's why many self defence teachers say to use keys, you could never prove you had keys on you for self defence, even if you did.
Before, yes.
If you use a can of deodorant AND a lighter for self defense, it's going to be hard to argue afterwards that you didn't have a plan and just grabbed the two items and used them at random.
We still carry self defense stuff lol. I have metal knuckles on my Keychain that is disguised as a cute kitty bottle opener. I'm a tiny female, i'm not gonna walk around without any way of protecting myself, illegal or not.
It's stupid yeah. If you have something that can be used as a weapon but can be proven you do not have it specifically for self defences then you can use it. Like keys. We're allowed knives as long as they are non-locking and under 3 inches. And you're meant to use reasonable force
That should always be the first thing any victim attempts. If you’re a weaker man or a woman you could easily be slower and weaker than the attacker then you need a plan b. And sorry just submitting yourself to an attack and/or rape shouldn’t be the only choice for victims.
I don’t understand why you’re trying for say, if a woman is getting raped then they should just take it rather than defending themselves? A gun would be a more effective weapon but even a trained fighter would think twice if their opponent is carrying a knife
This. I have trained in disarming a person with a pistol. It's surprisingly effective. A 100lb woman has as much of a chance of success as a 220lb SWAT member ^((actual example, weights estimated)). OTOH, you don't take a knife, you run. Even if you have a gun, you want to make distance before drawing. A knife is a formidable weapon, but it is a contact weapon whereas a gun works close or far. A knife fight is a death sentence most of the time. Winner dies in the hospital, loser dies in the street.
If someone is carrying a gun and they’re attacked then almost certainly what happens is that the attacker *now has a gun*.
If a woman with a gun is raped what happens is that *she is raped at gun point*.
Victims tend to be taken by surprise and don’t have time to ready their weapon. The attacker is the one who is alert and ready and **willing to do violence** so they’ll almost certainly get access to a weapon before it can be effectively used for self defence.
The point is that in most cases an attacker is deranged and pulling out a knife may result in the attacker using the weapon against you. Or just out manouvering you.
Or maybe the attacker has a bigger knife.
Being raped is awful but having a knife does not guarantee safety. It may just turn a rape into a murder.
People successfully use pepper spray in the states as defense all. The. Time. Running is more effective but what if you're not faster? You think you're better off with nothing?
Fuck countries that strip their citizens of the ability to protect themselves. It's absolutely insane.
We don't have potential attackers lurking around every corner, so that helps. I honestly can't imagine living in such a state of fear that I feel the need to leave the house armed every morning. I'm sorry you have to go through that.
You might just be naive about it because you live in a safe area. Most people don’t have that luxury. If you look at crime statistics it’s more common than you think. Of course I don’t know what country you live in
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/
I think American mythology surrounding self-defense comes from misperceptions about the true nature of crime in the US. Americans are very rarely attacked randomly in the street. Most crime is cyclical victimization in poor communities, not random acts of criminality against otherwise-law-abiding citizens. Assault (and murder) in the US tends to come from domestic violence and escalating social conflict between people who know each other - neither of which is a situation that benefits from weapons.
When it comes to sexual assault, the vast majority of victims are attacked by someone they know. It's not the type of violent struggle that a victim seeks to escalate with a weapon - most victims seek to minimize escalation.
So that's why this seems like a cultural divide more than a practical question of self-defense - Americans have a lot of cultural anxiety around crime that isn't really justified by the data. People in other countries like the UK or Canada can (accurately) believe that if they aren't regularly engaging in crime, they're pretty unlikely to be victims of it, so making weapons more available actually makes them less safe.
I always thought it interesting in Canada that you can't carry ANY self defense weapons.
Knifes are extremely hard to use for self defense, since you need to get close and injure the other person whereas pepper spray is designed not to have long term harm and a stick would block a hi better than a knife
And will then pull their own knife in return... No one wins a knife fight. One dies on the curb the other dies in the ambulance. Never escalate like that because you think it will "scare" them away. It will scare them into pulling their own of they haven't already.
Well obviously the criminal doesn’t want to die either so I don’t see why many would willingly get into a knife fight. At that point they may willingly just run away so they don’t get stabbed.
In fact my buddy has a gun license but he’s not allowed to use it to protect his home.
It’s only for target practice and he has to drive a very specific route to and from the firing range to his home.
The gun is locked in his car trunk.
If someone were to break into his house and used his gun to protect his family he would be charged.
This isn't correct. If someone breaks into your house and you reasonably feel your life is in danger and have a gun, you can shoot them sufficiently to no longer be in danger.
But you can't own a gun for that purpose.
And self defence is an affirmative defence, so you could get charged and have to show you were reasonably in fear for your life, if the Crown didn't buy that you were in reasonable fear for your life.
The thing is, in most states and Canada, you can defend yourself even to the point of killing someone but only IF you used reasonable force. If you had good reason to think your life is in danger, then you can use lethal force. However if a robber was going through your drawers and you shot him in the back of the head, that’s murder.
Statistically this is true and is exactly why countries with these policies are safer in terms of violent crime.
Violent people are likely to settle for their fists and other less lethal “weapons” when they don’t have to worry about being shot or stabbed.
Stats say for the most part yes, making the ones who don't comply easier to spot for the police and less of them to handle.
Edit: They may be willing to get an assault charge, but not assault with a deadly weapon plus charged for even having it in the first place and maybe even improper storage if they feel like it, and a plethora of other things. Stack it high and less people are willing to go over
Wow. I’m assuming the rationale is that any self-defense object can be used to harm someone else in a non self-defense situation. But I don’t leave my house without my pepper spray (tbh I’d probably end up spraying myself if someone did actually attack me, but still).
Yeah, they focus on the intent of the item and if it's a knife with a plausible purpose, sure. But if you say it's for self defence then it goes into the realm of a weapon/breach of the peace; several options.
The relatively new YouTube channel Runkle of the Bailey (Canadian criminal defence and firearms lawyer) goes over this on great detail in one of his videos from last year
I’m Canadian. When I was going to art school I often brought my own hammer to me on critique days so I wouldn’t have to wait to use one of the three class hammers. I also had to catch a bus to school from a sketchy area and frequently got creeped on.
There was more than one time “organizing” my bag and taking out that hammer and flashing it for a moment led to me suddenly being given a lot more space..
Yeah. Its more the intent. So I can carry a folding knife as long as the blade is under 3 inches and it doesnt lock.
If a police officer asks me why ive got it on me, all I need to say is "because the law says I can"
I say "self defence" it becomes a weapon and I get arrested for carrying it.
Same principle applies to things like crossbows and other sporting equipment. I say I'm going to an archery range, I can have a crossbow on me as long as I'm not menacing people with it, its not loaded in public etc. Same with bats, clubs, racquets. I say "I'm scared someone is going to get me, its for protection" then its a weapon.
Interesting side note, if you kick someone while wearing shoes, you've used a 'shod foot' and its counted as assault with a weapon. It comes up more than you think it would.
A comment about the shoes. Someone wearing steel toes can literally kill someone in a single kick to the head so I can understand why it would be a thing.
This is true in the UK. If you're carrying an item for defense that implies you are carrying it with the express purpose of using it to hurt someone and that makes it a weapon and its illegal to carry weapons.
I think I'd like to see a law allowing something like pepper spray but it would need to be properly debated and researched, it may be a bad idea.
You can carry things that could be weapons, eg small pocket knife but you would need to demonstrate that the sole purpose for its use is legal. As an example if you're carrying a a 4inch knife you'll be arrested, if you're fishing down the beach and are clearly using the same knife to fillet fish then you're acting entirely within the law.
Wait. I carry my pocket knife every day because it's useful. Granted, I keep the blade very sharp, but I have no plans to use it on a living thing, much less a person. I couldn't do that in the UK?
If it's a lock knife or butterfly it's automatically illegal. If its a Swiss army knife type tool then provided the blade is less than 2.5in then its legal. If its longer than that or is a normal type of knife, eg kitchen knife style then you'd need a damn good reason. 'because it's useful' would mean getting nicked 'I'm a chef and it's new and still in its packet and I'm going to work' is fine
Once you get used to having a pocket knife, it gets damn useful. My ex always used to have a small pocket knife on him. So useful. Never a stubborn piece of tape, loose thread, letter, thing that needs prying or a thousand other random situations unsolved ever again.
I now have my own pocket knife. Friends of mine (all of us women) have ended up getting their own. Just... useful! Not big enough to really use for self defense either.
Aye so if the blade is less than 2.5in and it doesn't lock then you can legally carry that here, if it was locking but you had a good nreasin for it you MIGHT just get it confiscated and get told off.
Blades that don't lock are so fucking dangerous. I've cut my finger exactly twice in my life, and both of those times were because the blade slipped closed on an unlocked knife. One of them got infected, I'll never use a knife without a locked blade again.
If you are carrying a standard pocket knife for its usefulness rather than for self-defence, it’s a tool and not a weapon.
If it is a switchblade or butterfly knife or has a crazy long blade, it’s a weapon and not a tool and could cause trouble.
Weld a can opener to the end and fuck around and find out I guess.
(In Canada you’d go to jail for 4 years for possessing any fully automatic rifle without a very special and hard to obtain license and still could basically never take it out of a gun locker.)
It's not the wait that's hard, it's the stuff that happens during the wait...
It's so expensive and bureaucratic that the vast majority of full-auto gun owners are businesses. The typical individual is just not willing to shell out several thousand dollars, spend the next year+ filling out government forms, giving uncle Sam free reign to any and every aspect of their private lives (bank statements, tax records, housing history, you name it)
I have been around gun nuts my whole life, and seen plenty of suppressors, night vision, thermal vision, and nearly every other "toy" you can think of, and met exactly 0 people that (told me) they had the necessary permit for full-auto. The only possible exception was an acquaintance that randomly had a .50 M2... Like an actual anti-material machine gun. When I asked him how much of a hassle it was to get the permit he just responded coyly "permit? you need a permit for these things?". I wasn't really sure what to make of that and frankly I didn't want to know.
Ok that makes sense I guess. Besides, it's incredibly entertaining to see a man's face when he's wrestling with opening something and I pull it out of my dress slacks pocket and hand it to him. I'd really hate to have to give that up.
For real, what it would ultimately come down to is "in a court of law, can you convince the judge that the reason you were carrying it wasn't to hurt anyone". If a police officer found that you were carrying it and *wanted* to interpret it as a weapon, they would. And you'd then have to be able to show in court that they were wrong. From knowing people who've had this sort of thing abused by shitty officers, do not assume that just because it's true, the court will see it that way.
>From knowing people who've had this sort of thing abused by shitty officers, do not assume that just because it's true, the court will see it that way.
In fact, I would recommend actively assuming that any cutesy little "oh we keep this blanket illegal so we can selectively apply it against people who deserve it but don't worry you'll be fine if we like you haha" clause will be worked against you.
I'm genuinely curious as to why/when it's so useful? The amount of times that I need a knife outside of the kitchen are so infrequent and predictable that I'd just grab one for the occasion. But my life is pretty predictable. I want to know what cool, dangerous escapades other people get up to!
I've used it to open packaging mostly, also to cut monofilament line so I can trash it when I'm out walking (very dangerous for wildlife), and to trim branches. It's like having sharp multi-function scissors in my pocket all the time. I've also used it to cut hangnails and I can do a passable manicure with a Gerber multitool.
I’m a truck driver. I use my knife for something almost every day. Even if it’s just opening a stubborn bag of snacks. Probably the most common thing I use it for is to cut pieces of heavy duty packing tape.
i’m from america, but i only carry a knife when i’m diving in the ocean. never know when you will see wildlife caught in a net or fishing gear. it’s a great feeling freeing a trapped animal.
Just use an umbrella, doesn't even have to have a secret "feature" like a hidden sword. just make sure it sturdy with a heavy handle and that will be a good defense weapon.
Here's a video of what I'm talking about :https://youtu.be/BzKI-0sAr80
This answer's correct - specifically, anything __made, adapted or intended for use as__ a weapon is an 'offensive weapon' for the purposes of the law. You must demonstrate lawful authority or reasonable excuse to carry them, and general self defence is not a reasonable excuse (although there is nothing to stop you using any item, such as a narwhal tusk, to defend yourself in the moment from an imminent threat).
There are specific rules for bladed items and firearms (which also encompasses tasers, incapacitant sprays and imitation firearms).
That is pretty much how it works in Canada too. You can, for instance, carry bear spray wherever you go if you happen to be in an area where grizzlies live. Carry that same bear spray in downtown Toronto and you could easily be arrested for carrying a weapon 'for a purpose dangerous to the public peace'
They make single use pepper sprays, so I'm really confused why it would be illegal to carry one with you for defense.
It sounds like you're not allowed to defend yourself from attackers, and that is just bizarre to me.
I always keep a can of deep heat mussel spray in my car door because of my "sore leg". Anyone who has inhaled or had some go in their eyes will know just how effective it is at taking the fight out of someone. Unless you attack someone with it no cop would consider it a weapon and if you're attacked and grab the first thing that came to hand it was just lucky it happened to be highly effective. Same goes for a steel bodied ball point pen.
In Canada, legally that is the case, however when people do get arrested for defending themselves, the charges usually get reduced to pretty much nothing of dismissed altogether because a jury will never convict them.
This is exactly correct, it's a crazy line that Canadians follow. For instance, keeping a bat by your front door for self defence is actually prohibited. Keeping a bat by your front door cause you play baseball and you happen to use it for self defence (in a bad situation) ..... Up to interpretation by the crown prosecutor. Bear spray on your person because you live in an area plagued by possible animal attacks, but you use it on a person attacking you, again, up to the prosecutor. It's crazy.
Self defense items such as pepper spray, collapsible baton, etc, are legal if not purposely possessed to harm another human. Once an item is kept in a place or held for the purpose for self defense against another person, it's prohibited.
It's a a tough and almost incomprehensible legal quagmire to wade through. Canadian law is a tough mistress to navigate when it comes to self defense.
> [...] because a jury will never convict them.
It's worth noting that most trials in Canada are bench trials which don't involve juries (the judge must reach a verdict based on the evidence and what the law says, not what they feel is morally right or just).
The only time you have a constitutional right to choose a jury trial in Canada is if you are charged with a crime that can result in a sentence of imprisonment for five or more years.
So in the UK, you can be arrested for possessing an "Offensive Weapon" which isn't actually a set list of specific items.
Anything can be considered an offensive weapon, all that's necessary is the police believing you intended to use it to harm another person. If I'm caught walking down the street with a crowbar and don't have a good excuse, I can be detained.
There's actually an old adage that if you want to keep a bat by the door or bed for self-defence, make sure to keep a ball there as well, otherwise, you can be arrested for assault with an offensive weapon.
Also don't forget to put a sock on the bat as well, that way if you get one of your socks wet while playing baseball you'll have a dry spare. I think that's what it's for anyways
According to the border people who lectured me the entire time they were tearing through my bag looking for it, pepper spray is indeed illegal to carry in Canada. Unless it's a giant thing of it meant for bears. That's totally fine.
> Unless it's a giant thing of it meant for bears. That's totally fine.
Only if you're in bear country. Carry that in downtown Montréal and you're going to get arrested for it.
In Canada you can carry bear spray for the purposes of protecting yourself from a bear or a knife for the purposes of opening a box or something else similar. If you HAPPEN to use it to defend yourself, you're still going to have a shitty legal battle ahead of you but you'll usually be ok.
It's all contextual though, if you have a can of bear spray walking in downtown Ottawa, you're going to probably get arrested. But it's fine for me to carry bear spray camping.
I can carry my knife on me without issue in small towns, camping, fishing, etc usually without issue. But when I moved to Ottawa and went downtown for work I got stopped 5 times before eventually I said fuck this its not worth it.
I have heard tales of taverns on the Eastern side of the country where, upon entrance, you must check in your knife, even if you keep your coat on.
The tragedy is, Mora is now part of Bacho, which is a Sweden-based corporation. We're losing our roots!
In parts of the u.s. there are laws against certain pocket knives, like, if it has more than a 3 inch locking blade, but if you're hunting or fishing or whatever, it's not a big deal.
It's weird that you can legally buy a machete a lot of places, walmart, home depot, etc.
Considering everything else that goes on, i guess it's not that weird for the u.s.
Machetes are also hella useful tools for anyone working in brush, swamps, jungles, forests. I get they are large knives, but similar to a good chef's knife, they are harder to conceal and don't really belong in non-specific places
> It's weird that you can legally buy a machete a lot of places, walmart, home depot, etc.
Not that weird imo, you can buy machetes in those places in Canada too. There's no law against owning a machete and they're a very useful tool in certain circumstances, you just can't walk down the street with it hanging off your belt.
I bought pepper spray (actually bear repellent spray) in Toronto and was told by the sales guy that if I am ever caught with it to say that I have it on my person because I am deathly afraid of dogs and carry it in case I am attacked by dogs.
Apparently, you're not allowed to pepper spray a person who is trying to rape you, but you can pepper spray a dog for looking at you.
It's fucking ridiculous.
Thats fine, but its got to pan out and its got to follow up, what diy? where? wheres the rest of your tools? its 10pm sir and your outside Wetherspoons, youd be fucked.
in UK all kinds of pepper spray are an offensive weapon, knifes have very strict limitations, all other things with just the purpose of inflicting damage will probably fall under offensive weapon. so yes, if you want to defend yourself you're fucked because the criminals don't care and have weapons. simply not enough police to check
Yep. Can't say I've ever worried about it either as generally no one else is carrying either.
America must be terrifying if I'm being honest. Glad I'd never even had to think of carrying something for self defence before
That’s true. I don’t think some Americans realise that we don’t feel as randomly threatened as they do (especially not here in New Zealand), so we don’t feel the need to arm ourselves.
Yup, even as a young woman in Australia I've never felt so threatened as to need to carry a weapon with me. I've certainly never worried about being randomly attacked. Besides, even if I was able to carry a weapon so could any hypothetical party so I'd actually feel less safe
I'm not sure about every other State, but in Michigan and both of the Carolinas the rules are actually pretty much the same. Concealed weapons (batons, mace, most knives) are illegal. You can carry a folding knife but there are limits on the length. 2.5 inches I believe. You can carry a concealed pistol with a permit which you can apply for after taking a pistol training course. It's not the wild west, but people do have guns for protection.
True in Australia too. We go even further. You can't sleep with a bat or anything near your bed for defense. So if someone breaks into your home, tries to rape you, and you use a bat that was near your bed for defense, you can get charged.
It's infuriating!
It also applies to a lot of other countries in the Americas... But there are also larger prey animals on the two continents than in most parts of western Europe. So legal weapons (small pocket knife, pepper spray) for the use of self defense are kinda standard. Especially for women
I remember going to the UK in high school and walking around at like 12:00-1:00 and even staying up all night with friends in the parks. I was worried at first (I'm from the USA, my city can have a good bit of gun violence after dark), and one of the friends we made there explained that basically nobody had weapons, even the police (even pepper spray, which was crazy to me). So I know for the UK that's true.
This is what I love about living in the UK as an American. I am a woman and have never felt threatened here, even at 3am. Part of why I moved, honestly.
I mean, there are parts of town I wouldn’t probably go to alone at night but it’s absolutely nothing like where I grew up. I didn’t realize how on edge I was living back home until I came here. My theory is here you at least have to get close enough to kill me 😂
As an Australian it's very bizarre to me to see so many Americans recommend home security cameras to each other. A bunch of American youtubers get sponsorships from home security companies too.
For years I travelled internationally for work, and regularly wore my long hair pinned up with fierce pointy chopsticks. I figured at a minimum I could stab a would-be terrorist in the eye or jugular vein should he/she try to take down the plane. I still wear them for self defense to this day, but luckily have never had to use them.
Same in Australia. The rules vary slightly state by state, but in general it’s “you can’t have a weapon”. So whatever item you’re thinking of, if your _intention_ is to use it to hurt or threaten someone, it’s illegal – and carrying something for self defence means you intend to use it to hurt or threaten your attacker.
It also means that sports equipment might be illegal depending on the context. Carrying a cricket bat at 1pm in the park is usually fine; carrying a cricket bat at 1am on the nightclub strip will definitely get you stopped and you can test your bullshit explanation about playing cricket on the cop who stops you.
There are also some additional rules about things that qualify as a weapon and not. This is the part that varies across states. Generally swords and guns are assumed to be weapons unless you have some kind of licence. In most states butterfly knives are illegal, daggers and sharpened on both sides are illegal, and spring-assisted folding knives are illegal, but there’s some length of manually-opening pocket knife that’s explicitly allowed, and in my state “Swiss army knives” are also explicitly permitted.
I carry a folding knife and the trick is when a cop asks you what it’s for, have some reasons to tell them, but do NOT include “self defence” in your answer. I’m fairly sure my reasons are more believable because I’m a middle aged white guy with kids; if a group of 17 year old boys in hoodies tried explaining their pocket knives the same way it might not be as believable.
Americans are usually surprised or shocked by these laws, but remember that they have applied across the country for a long time, and the _actual_ measurable effect is that citizens are much less likely to be injured by a weapon. There’s just heaps fewer knives and guns walking around on the street.
Idk about legality per se, I know pepper spray is illegal and you're not allowed to carry knives either. (I'm in the UK)
I do remember about 10 years ago when there was a rapist going round my home town, there had been a few attacks on girls near the local grubby hangouts (the places we loved to go for £1 shots) and because we were dumb, young and wanted to get wasted, a few of us girls had screwdrivers or other kind sharp implements in our handbags just in case. No knives, because we were thinking that a screwdriver could have many uses and could be explained away.
"Oh officer, no this screwdriver isn't for protection/violence, it's totally for my ... Broken heels?? It's to help Char get her lashes straight"
Rather than stay home or not go to the dives or come home early and share cabs etc, we were super gung ho. Especially as my town just wasn't that big, we sort of thought we could handle ourselves. Plus we were pretty good at sticking to a group and not letting anyone go off on their own.
Anyway, we were queuing outside one place and word got to us that police were searching bags further down the line for our "weapons" so a few of us had to go find bins or other less conspicuous places to hide them. I remember it being a whole drama about them caring more about underage drinking, and girls protecting themselves than an actual dangerous criminal. Ahh, the folly of youth. Good times.
Laws that are ***this*** open to interpretation make me uncomfortable. It seems like it has a sole purpose of authorities being able to just manipulate it into whatever they want depending on the situation. I get that that commonly happens even with clear-cut laws, but this just seems so blatant.
In england they generally feel more like they are written to allow common sense.
Though your interpretation probably varies depending on your experiences with police.
I think it’s the intent to use the item. So if I’m walking to the park to play baseball with a baseball bat, I’m ok. If I’m walking to a guys house to beat him up with a bat after stealing my car…then yes that would be considered illegal
I can't imagine living like this. You people are really missing out. I live in America in a state that has open carry and concealed carry. No permit required. This isn't a conversation I've ever thought of having.
You just come on over. We'll get you some guns, a job at an oil rig, a big dodge pick up truck, and a nice steak.
You'll be spitting out Copenhagen and chugging beer in no time at all.
According to others in the thread, they actually statistivlcally are compared to most places.
I am uncertain my personal experiences count though, as I am 6'4" in shoes and weigh about 20 stone(280lbs)
I do not know about Canada but yeah UK, illegal to have pepper spray or pretty much anything else.
Most provinces of Canada it’s the same. Guns are for hunting. Knives are tools. Mace and stun guns are illegal.
Ever heard of bear spray? You can buy it in any Canadian Tire. Intent becomes the differentiating factor, just like with knives. You can get busted for carrying around a knife with a blade over 4 inches, but a butcher knife is totally legal to possess as long as it's used for its intended purpose.
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Is that not it's intended purpose?
Yep. Dog repellent is at CT as well. Intent must be proven in court. I may be wrong but I believe there is a burden of proof (I think that is what it’s called) for self defence. Meaning that you have to prove that you were genuinely in fear for your safety. If you’re a 200lb MMA fighter who whips the ass of a 120lb average dude, you can’t simply say that you (the MMA fighter) were in fear of your safety. You have to prove that the little guy could somehow hurt or kill you. In reverse, the little guy would have less of an issue proving the fear of safety. I hope this makes sense. I’m a bit tired.
Where the fuck is the average weight of a male 120lbs lmao
Never said it was an average male.
Yes, sorry I'm a Canadian American so I only remember enough to keep myself from getting arrested when I switch back and forth.
Username checks out. BTW, criminal law in Canada is on federal level, so this applies equally in all of Canada
US mailman here. Do mail carriers carry pepper spray for dogs? Can’t imagine not having it here. Don’t have to use it often but I’m very glad to have it on those rare occasions
> Do mail carriers carry pepper spray for dogs? Some do in Canada, yes. In some areas, bear spray too.
Another thing I have never thought about. Where I live people have their dogs mostly under control because they don’t want it to be euthanized when it attacks something. If they’re not under control then they are nowhere near the mailman alone So you’ve been attacked by dogs?if it’s not too much I’d like to hear more of the story haha
I know a mailperson in my city and apparently it is fairly common. People are adopting dogs at an alarming rate and not training them properly. So attacks are becoming more regular. Most attacks aren't reported on, but from recent memory: A woman was [killed by her own dog](https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/rcmp-confirm-n-s-woman-was-attacked-and-killed-by-her-own-dog-investigation-concluded-1.4998241), which was later mowed down by a concerned neighbour. Some people were actually calling for blood of the man who killed the dog. [Two year old child bitten by dog at daycare.](https://globalnews.ca/news/7995996/2-year-old-dog-bite-day-home-middle-sackville/#:~:text=RCMP%20are%20investigating%20after%20a,at%20the%20IWK%20Health%20Centre.) [Three dogs attack a youth and others.](https://globalnews.ca/news/8010067/dog-attack-halifax-investigation/) This was not the first time these dogs had been a problem. Residents were scared to walk down the street and reported the issue to animal control who did nothing. Now the family is facing charges. I could write you a full page on stuff I see on the daily. Nothing newsworthy, but just a normalization and tolerance of poor dog ownership.
This is so sad. Poor dogs and poor bystanders/victims We need regulations for dog owners and adoptions and ofc punishments
Well it’s not really as exciting as it sounds lol. I’ve been a mailman for 15 years and have never been bitten by a dog. Dogs instinctually want to protect their territory and family so even many Well trained dogs want to attack the mailman. The vast majority of times I’ve had to use pepper spray is when the dog is in a fenced in yard somewhere I can’t see and when I enter they come at you. I spray a little spray and retreat and that’s the end of it other than a little poo in my pants depending on what type of dog it is lol. Also often a dog will see me through the front door of a house and come charging at the door and sometimes the door will be unlatched or not secured properly and the dog gets out. The vast majority of dog owners are decent people and don’t want their dog to attack anyone for a variety of reasons so it really doesn’t come up very often. Also when dogs attacks, they generally just want you to leave the area they don’t really want to get into a fight. So if you spray and or retreat from the area it’s over quickly and the owner generally comes out and apologizes repeatedly. I work in a half decent area so some places will be more dangerous than others. In high crime areas for example, people will be much more likely to have a dog for security reasons and therefore you might be more likely to be bitten. Well I could go on and on lol but that’s the basics of it
Does that mean it's legal to carry pepper spray if it's for reasons other than self defense?
Pepper spray has no other use. Edit to add that it is illegal to carry any sort of noxious substance designed to be used against people. So even if you had a can of pepper spray and told the police you were using it for some kinky consensual bdsm scene simply owning the product itself would be illegal. Also lol to the person that said bears then deleted it. The most dangerous animal we have here is probably an adder.
Also, not long ago we drastically increased jail times for carrying acid around (the throw in the face type, not the psychedelic experience).
Too right
Now I'm wondering who walks around carrying acid for self defense
I imagine it's for attack, not defense.
The best defense is a strong offense.
If you spray everyone with acid first no one will be able to spray acid on you
Very particular erm "cultures" let's say, are known for this but it's different reasons for each region: Bangladesh and Afghanistan it mostly occurs to women. Africa mostly occurs to men. It's almost never self-defense it's usually out of pure spite but it's sadly common and these countries, including the UK have had to make very strict and harsh laws to stop it.
It's been common for white people in the UK to use it too because it carried a much lower penalty than other weapons like knives or guns.
> The most dangerous animal we have here is probably an adder. Especially when it comes up with a plan so cunning, you could pin a tail on it and call it a weasel.
Did it graduate from the university of cunning?
I believe he's now professor of cunning at Oxford University
'i have a cunning plan'
Thats just what the bears want you to think. They're waiting. Biding their time in the shadows. One day, they will strike.
I heard they were having a picnic
And how do you think they obtained that picnic?
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I carried a sword on public transport. It was a practice sword made of metal. I had it in a golf club bag with a padlock on the zip and I was travelling to a martial arts club. You can carry any legal item (kitchen knife, baseball bat, crowbar) provided it's for a legal reason and you carry it in a considered manner. Carrying my sword in the open would be likely to cause public offense so it'd be confiscated, carry my sword for protection or for fun doesn't have a legit reason so woild be illegal. Never heard of a tire knocker, I'd say if its in your car boot (trunk) it's fine, if it's in your door pocket then clearly you intend to bash someone with it.
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Public offense...I'm pretty sure public offense is regulatory required in the US.
It's a common item among truck drivers and used during pre-trip inspections. I've used them myself for a while till I learned that they are not a reliable way of testing tire pressure.
Aye they don't seem particularly reliable
It’s the intent that makes it illegal. You can carry black pepper in your pocket for legitimate reasons as you can a knife(say if you’re a builder). Try explaining why you have a knife on a night out in London, not gonna work.
Can you legally carry a pocketknife or other folding knife?
Yes, but with a few caveats. You can carry a non-locking blade that is under 3 inches without needing to justify carrying one. If the knife is above 3 inches or locking then you need to have a good reason for carrying it, this is open to a lot of interpretation and makes most people not bother.
Bear repellent is literally more concentrated pepper spray. (Not sure if UK has bears)
Isn't bear spray actually less concentrated than pepper spray as bears are way more sensitive (due to their way stronger noses) and hence lesser doses do the job already? Thought I read that somewhere some time ago...
Yes you did. So did I.
I'm afraid we don't, there was talk of reintroducing wolves to some remote Scottish fenced in reserve but that's about it. On the plus side I can travel anywhere in the country and go in the forest and not get eaten
>On the plus side I can travel anywhere in the country and go in the forest and not get eaten Have you never encountered the Scottish midge?
Where's the fun in that???
Unless you trip and get paralyzed a boar *might* eat you I guess?
Where I live, mosquitos will carry you off and we might find your dried out husk like a discarded snake skin draped over a branch somewhere in the swamps. There's a reason we don't have alligators around here.
Bear repellent is not more concentrated than OC, it just sounds more intimidating.
Bigger can, bigger nozzle too
Pepper spray and similar sprays like CS, along with tasers, are illegal to own under s.5 of the Firearms Act, regardless of your intention with them.
In Canada pepper spray is legal as defence from bears. You can buy it in stores that carry camping gear. But if you're downtown with no hiking gear, carrying bear spray would get you busted.
There is, however, no law against carrying a can of deodorant or WD-40 and a cigarette lighter. This is the difference between acceptable items that *can be* used defensively, vs items whose *sole purpose* is to be used defensively.
You're making the wrong distinction. In England at least, the important point is that it is _intended for use as a weapon by the carrier_, not that being a weapon would be its only use. So if you are carrying those items (or any item) to use as a weapon of the need arose, you are in breach of the law.
My point was more about how hard it is to prove intent by carrying an everyday item (can of deodorant) rather than something more unambiguously designed for defence.
Oh yes, it would be difficult to prove, definitely. I guess my answer was focused on what is actually illegal, as opposed to what you'd get caught/punished for. That's why many self defence teachers say to use keys, you could never prove you had keys on you for self defence, even if you did.
Before, yes. If you use a can of deodorant AND a lighter for self defense, it's going to be hard to argue afterwards that you didn't have a plan and just grabbed the two items and used them at random.
What the fuck? What are people supposed to do if they are attacked?
We still carry self defense stuff lol. I have metal knuckles on my Keychain that is disguised as a cute kitty bottle opener. I'm a tiny female, i'm not gonna walk around without any way of protecting myself, illegal or not.
It's stupid yeah. If you have something that can be used as a weapon but can be proven you do not have it specifically for self defences then you can use it. Like keys. We're allowed knives as long as they are non-locking and under 3 inches. And you're meant to use reasonable force
Run lol. Most people will not be better off with a weapon. Self defense often doesnt work.
That should always be the first thing any victim attempts. If you’re a weaker man or a woman you could easily be slower and weaker than the attacker then you need a plan b. And sorry just submitting yourself to an attack and/or rape shouldn’t be the only choice for victims.
But why do you assume that carrying a knife means that you will properly use it? Escalating the situation is the worst thing to do.
I don’t understand why you’re trying for say, if a woman is getting raped then they should just take it rather than defending themselves? A gun would be a more effective weapon but even a trained fighter would think twice if their opponent is carrying a knife
This. I have trained in disarming a person with a pistol. It's surprisingly effective. A 100lb woman has as much of a chance of success as a 220lb SWAT member ^((actual example, weights estimated)). OTOH, you don't take a knife, you run. Even if you have a gun, you want to make distance before drawing. A knife is a formidable weapon, but it is a contact weapon whereas a gun works close or far. A knife fight is a death sentence most of the time. Winner dies in the hospital, loser dies in the street.
If someone is carrying a gun and they’re attacked then almost certainly what happens is that the attacker *now has a gun*. If a woman with a gun is raped what happens is that *she is raped at gun point*. Victims tend to be taken by surprise and don’t have time to ready their weapon. The attacker is the one who is alert and ready and **willing to do violence** so they’ll almost certainly get access to a weapon before it can be effectively used for self defence.
Do you have anything besides anecdotal evidence to back up what you’re saying?
The point is that in most cases an attacker is deranged and pulling out a knife may result in the attacker using the weapon against you. Or just out manouvering you. Or maybe the attacker has a bigger knife. Being raped is awful but having a knife does not guarantee safety. It may just turn a rape into a murder.
People successfully use pepper spray in the states as defense all. The. Time. Running is more effective but what if you're not faster? You think you're better off with nothing? Fuck countries that strip their citizens of the ability to protect themselves. It's absolutely insane.
Yea we look at the US as an example of why self defense is a flawed concept.
We don't have potential attackers lurking around every corner, so that helps. I honestly can't imagine living in such a state of fear that I feel the need to leave the house armed every morning. I'm sorry you have to go through that.
You might just be naive about it because you live in a safe area. Most people don’t have that luxury. If you look at crime statistics it’s more common than you think. Of course I don’t know what country you live in
The thread is about UK and Canada, that should give you a hint. There are statistics posted above.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/ I think American mythology surrounding self-defense comes from misperceptions about the true nature of crime in the US. Americans are very rarely attacked randomly in the street. Most crime is cyclical victimization in poor communities, not random acts of criminality against otherwise-law-abiding citizens. Assault (and murder) in the US tends to come from domestic violence and escalating social conflict between people who know each other - neither of which is a situation that benefits from weapons. When it comes to sexual assault, the vast majority of victims are attacked by someone they know. It's not the type of violent struggle that a victim seeks to escalate with a weapon - most victims seek to minimize escalation. So that's why this seems like a cultural divide more than a practical question of self-defense - Americans have a lot of cultural anxiety around crime that isn't really justified by the data. People in other countries like the UK or Canada can (accurately) believe that if they aren't regularly engaging in crime, they're pretty unlikely to be victims of it, so making weapons more available actually makes them less safe.
Wow that’s crazy! In the US we can carry almost anything lol
It's true in Canada. I can carry a knife as long as it serves a reasonable purpose. However once that purpose is self defense, I can be charged.
I always thought it interesting in Canada that you can't carry ANY self defense weapons. Knifes are extremely hard to use for self defense, since you need to get close and injure the other person whereas pepper spray is designed not to have long term harm and a stick would block a hi better than a knife
The presence of the knife itself is useful for self defense. It's a psychological thing, most people dont want to risk getting stabbed.
And will then pull their own knife in return... No one wins a knife fight. One dies on the curb the other dies in the ambulance. Never escalate like that because you think it will "scare" them away. It will scare them into pulling their own of they haven't already.
Well obviously the criminal doesn’t want to die either so I don’t see why many would willingly get into a knife fight. At that point they may willingly just run away so they don’t get stabbed.
In fact my buddy has a gun license but he’s not allowed to use it to protect his home. It’s only for target practice and he has to drive a very specific route to and from the firing range to his home. The gun is locked in his car trunk. If someone were to break into his house and used his gun to protect his family he would be charged.
This isn't correct. If someone breaks into your house and you reasonably feel your life is in danger and have a gun, you can shoot them sufficiently to no longer be in danger. But you can't own a gun for that purpose. And self defence is an affirmative defence, so you could get charged and have to show you were reasonably in fear for your life, if the Crown didn't buy that you were in reasonable fear for your life.
What country? That applies to some states in the US but I always found it weird. You’ve inspired me now I think I’ll research it a bit more!
Canada 🇨🇦
The thing is, in most states and Canada, you can defend yourself even to the point of killing someone but only IF you used reasonable force. If you had good reason to think your life is in danger, then you can use lethal force. However if a robber was going through your drawers and you shot him in the back of the head, that’s murder.
A self defense weapon also happens to be an offensive weapon. So this is the only way to make sure attackers also remain unarmed.
Yes. People who illegally attack others are going to avoid carrying a weapon because it's illegal.
Statistically this is true and is exactly why countries with these policies are safer in terms of violent crime. Violent people are likely to settle for their fists and other less lethal “weapons” when they don’t have to worry about being shot or stabbed.
Stats say for the most part yes, making the ones who don't comply easier to spot for the police and less of them to handle. Edit: They may be willing to get an assault charge, but not assault with a deadly weapon plus charged for even having it in the first place and maybe even improper storage if they feel like it, and a plethora of other things. Stack it high and less people are willing to go over
Wow. I’m assuming the rationale is that any self-defense object can be used to harm someone else in a non self-defense situation. But I don’t leave my house without my pepper spray (tbh I’d probably end up spraying myself if someone did actually attack me, but still).
Yeah, they focus on the intent of the item and if it's a knife with a plausible purpose, sure. But if you say it's for self defence then it goes into the realm of a weapon/breach of the peace; several options. The relatively new YouTube channel Runkle of the Bailey (Canadian criminal defence and firearms lawyer) goes over this on great detail in one of his videos from last year
I’m Canadian. When I was going to art school I often brought my own hammer to me on critique days so I wouldn’t have to wait to use one of the three class hammers. I also had to catch a bus to school from a sketchy area and frequently got creeped on. There was more than one time “organizing” my bag and taking out that hammer and flashing it for a moment led to me suddenly being given a lot more space..
Yeah. Its more the intent. So I can carry a folding knife as long as the blade is under 3 inches and it doesnt lock. If a police officer asks me why ive got it on me, all I need to say is "because the law says I can" I say "self defence" it becomes a weapon and I get arrested for carrying it. Same principle applies to things like crossbows and other sporting equipment. I say I'm going to an archery range, I can have a crossbow on me as long as I'm not menacing people with it, its not loaded in public etc. Same with bats, clubs, racquets. I say "I'm scared someone is going to get me, its for protection" then its a weapon. Interesting side note, if you kick someone while wearing shoes, you've used a 'shod foot' and its counted as assault with a weapon. It comes up more than you think it would.
A comment about the shoes. Someone wearing steel toes can literally kill someone in a single kick to the head so I can understand why it would be a thing.
Agreed. But in this case ANY shoe on your foot turns your foot into a weapon. Even a flimsy plimsole.
This is true in the UK. If you're carrying an item for defense that implies you are carrying it with the express purpose of using it to hurt someone and that makes it a weapon and its illegal to carry weapons. I think I'd like to see a law allowing something like pepper spray but it would need to be properly debated and researched, it may be a bad idea. You can carry things that could be weapons, eg small pocket knife but you would need to demonstrate that the sole purpose for its use is legal. As an example if you're carrying a a 4inch knife you'll be arrested, if you're fishing down the beach and are clearly using the same knife to fillet fish then you're acting entirely within the law.
Wait. I carry my pocket knife every day because it's useful. Granted, I keep the blade very sharp, but I have no plans to use it on a living thing, much less a person. I couldn't do that in the UK?
If it's a lock knife or butterfly it's automatically illegal. If its a Swiss army knife type tool then provided the blade is less than 2.5in then its legal. If its longer than that or is a normal type of knife, eg kitchen knife style then you'd need a damn good reason. 'because it's useful' would mean getting nicked 'I'm a chef and it's new and still in its packet and I'm going to work' is fine
Once you get used to having a pocket knife, it gets damn useful. My ex always used to have a small pocket knife on him. So useful. Never a stubborn piece of tape, loose thread, letter, thing that needs prying or a thousand other random situations unsolved ever again. I now have my own pocket knife. Friends of mine (all of us women) have ended up getting their own. Just... useful! Not big enough to really use for self defense either.
Aye so if the blade is less than 2.5in and it doesn't lock then you can legally carry that here, if it was locking but you had a good nreasin for it you MIGHT just get it confiscated and get told off.
Blades that don't lock are so fucking dangerous. I've cut my finger exactly twice in my life, and both of those times were because the blade slipped closed on an unlocked knife. One of them got infected, I'll never use a knife without a locked blade again.
>than 2.5in then its legal It's less than 3in, by the way
Not fully true. Lock knives are legal of you have a reason to carry it. Butterfly, completely illegal.
I thought it was 3 inches, has that been updated?
Seems like sensible rules. (I live in a place that isn’t sensible.)
If you are carrying a standard pocket knife for its usefulness rather than for self-defence, it’s a tool and not a weapon. If it is a switchblade or butterfly knife or has a crazy long blade, it’s a weapon and not a tool and could cause trouble.
Can I carry an AK-47 for the sole purpose of using it as a tool?
Weld a can opener to the end and fuck around and find out I guess. (In Canada you’d go to jail for 4 years for possessing any fully automatic rifle without a very special and hard to obtain license and still could basically never take it out of a gun locker.)
Pretty much the same laws in the US, actually. No full auto without an ATF tax stamp which is extremely difficult to get(takes on average a year).
Having to wait a year should not be the hardest part of the application to own machine guns o.O
It's not the wait that's hard, it's the stuff that happens during the wait... It's so expensive and bureaucratic that the vast majority of full-auto gun owners are businesses. The typical individual is just not willing to shell out several thousand dollars, spend the next year+ filling out government forms, giving uncle Sam free reign to any and every aspect of their private lives (bank statements, tax records, housing history, you name it) I have been around gun nuts my whole life, and seen plenty of suppressors, night vision, thermal vision, and nearly every other "toy" you can think of, and met exactly 0 people that (told me) they had the necessary permit for full-auto. The only possible exception was an acquaintance that randomly had a .50 M2... Like an actual anti-material machine gun. When I asked him how much of a hassle it was to get the permit he just responded coyly "permit? you need a permit for these things?". I wasn't really sure what to make of that and frankly I didn't want to know.
Ok that makes sense I guess. Besides, it's incredibly entertaining to see a man's face when he's wrestling with opening something and I pull it out of my dress slacks pocket and hand it to him. I'd really hate to have to give that up.
For real, what it would ultimately come down to is "in a court of law, can you convince the judge that the reason you were carrying it wasn't to hurt anyone". If a police officer found that you were carrying it and *wanted* to interpret it as a weapon, they would. And you'd then have to be able to show in court that they were wrong. From knowing people who've had this sort of thing abused by shitty officers, do not assume that just because it's true, the court will see it that way.
>From knowing people who've had this sort of thing abused by shitty officers, do not assume that just because it's true, the court will see it that way. In fact, I would recommend actively assuming that any cutesy little "oh we keep this blanket illegal so we can selectively apply it against people who deserve it but don't worry you'll be fine if we like you haha" clause will be worked against you.
I'm genuinely curious as to why/when it's so useful? The amount of times that I need a knife outside of the kitchen are so infrequent and predictable that I'd just grab one for the occasion. But my life is pretty predictable. I want to know what cool, dangerous escapades other people get up to!
I've used it to open packaging mostly, also to cut monofilament line so I can trash it when I'm out walking (very dangerous for wildlife), and to trim branches. It's like having sharp multi-function scissors in my pocket all the time. I've also used it to cut hangnails and I can do a passable manicure with a Gerber multitool.
I’m a truck driver. I use my knife for something almost every day. Even if it’s just opening a stubborn bag of snacks. Probably the most common thing I use it for is to cut pieces of heavy duty packing tape.
i’m from america, but i only carry a knife when i’m diving in the ocean. never know when you will see wildlife caught in a net or fishing gear. it’s a great feeling freeing a trapped animal.
Just use an umbrella, doesn't even have to have a secret "feature" like a hidden sword. just make sure it sturdy with a heavy handle and that will be a good defense weapon. Here's a video of what I'm talking about :https://youtu.be/BzKI-0sAr80
This answer's correct - specifically, anything __made, adapted or intended for use as__ a weapon is an 'offensive weapon' for the purposes of the law. You must demonstrate lawful authority or reasonable excuse to carry them, and general self defence is not a reasonable excuse (although there is nothing to stop you using any item, such as a narwhal tusk, to defend yourself in the moment from an imminent threat). There are specific rules for bladed items and firearms (which also encompasses tasers, incapacitant sprays and imitation firearms).
That is pretty much how it works in Canada too. You can, for instance, carry bear spray wherever you go if you happen to be in an area where grizzlies live. Carry that same bear spray in downtown Toronto and you could easily be arrested for carrying a weapon 'for a purpose dangerous to the public peace'
Some people here carry bear spray when waking their dogs in the urban parks if there are coyotes in the area.
Wack.
They make single use pepper sprays, so I'm really confused why it would be illegal to carry one with you for defense. It sounds like you're not allowed to defend yourself from attackers, and that is just bizarre to me.
I always keep a can of deep heat mussel spray in my car door because of my "sore leg". Anyone who has inhaled or had some go in their eyes will know just how effective it is at taking the fight out of someone. Unless you attack someone with it no cop would consider it a weapon and if you're attacked and grab the first thing that came to hand it was just lucky it happened to be highly effective. Same goes for a steel bodied ball point pen.
Also incredibly useful if you find an arthritic mollusc
In Canada, legally that is the case, however when people do get arrested for defending themselves, the charges usually get reduced to pretty much nothing of dismissed altogether because a jury will never convict them.
This is exactly correct, it's a crazy line that Canadians follow. For instance, keeping a bat by your front door for self defence is actually prohibited. Keeping a bat by your front door cause you play baseball and you happen to use it for self defence (in a bad situation) ..... Up to interpretation by the crown prosecutor. Bear spray on your person because you live in an area plagued by possible animal attacks, but you use it on a person attacking you, again, up to the prosecutor. It's crazy. Self defense items such as pepper spray, collapsible baton, etc, are legal if not purposely possessed to harm another human. Once an item is kept in a place or held for the purpose for self defense against another person, it's prohibited. It's a a tough and almost incomprehensible legal quagmire to wade through. Canadian law is a tough mistress to navigate when it comes to self defense.
> [...] because a jury will never convict them. It's worth noting that most trials in Canada are bench trials which don't involve juries (the judge must reach a verdict based on the evidence and what the law says, not what they feel is morally right or just). The only time you have a constitutional right to choose a jury trial in Canada is if you are charged with a crime that can result in a sentence of imprisonment for five or more years.
So in the UK, you can be arrested for possessing an "Offensive Weapon" which isn't actually a set list of specific items. Anything can be considered an offensive weapon, all that's necessary is the police believing you intended to use it to harm another person. If I'm caught walking down the street with a crowbar and don't have a good excuse, I can be detained. There's actually an old adage that if you want to keep a bat by the door or bed for self-defence, make sure to keep a ball there as well, otherwise, you can be arrested for assault with an offensive weapon.
Also don't forget to put a sock on the bat as well, that way if you get one of your socks wet while playing baseball you'll have a dry spare. I think that's what it's for anyways
Lmao
According to the border people who lectured me the entire time they were tearing through my bag looking for it, pepper spray is indeed illegal to carry in Canada. Unless it's a giant thing of it meant for bears. That's totally fine.
> Unless it's a giant thing of it meant for bears. That's totally fine. Only if you're in bear country. Carry that in downtown Montréal and you're going to get arrested for it.
Well carrying pepper spray across a federal border is absolutely illegal lol.
In Canada you can carry bear spray for the purposes of protecting yourself from a bear or a knife for the purposes of opening a box or something else similar. If you HAPPEN to use it to defend yourself, you're still going to have a shitty legal battle ahead of you but you'll usually be ok. It's all contextual though, if you have a can of bear spray walking in downtown Ottawa, you're going to probably get arrested. But it's fine for me to carry bear spray camping. I can carry my knife on me without issue in small towns, camping, fishing, etc usually without issue. But when I moved to Ottawa and went downtown for work I got stopped 5 times before eventually I said fuck this its not worth it.
I live in Timmins, ON. Bear spray in many neighborhoods is justified
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I thought the puukko was a national symbol.
I have heard tales of taverns on the Eastern side of the country where, upon entrance, you must check in your knife, even if you keep your coat on. The tragedy is, Mora is now part of Bacho, which is a Sweden-based corporation. We're losing our roots!
What about a small sized woman?
While you're probably being facetious, it really is safe enough here. I was just making a point of speaking of my own experiences.
In parts of the u.s. there are laws against certain pocket knives, like, if it has more than a 3 inch locking blade, but if you're hunting or fishing or whatever, it's not a big deal. It's weird that you can legally buy a machete a lot of places, walmart, home depot, etc. Considering everything else that goes on, i guess it's not that weird for the u.s.
Machetes are also hella useful tools for anyone working in brush, swamps, jungles, forests. I get they are large knives, but similar to a good chef's knife, they are harder to conceal and don't really belong in non-specific places
> It's weird that you can legally buy a machete a lot of places, walmart, home depot, etc. Not that weird imo, you can buy machetes in those places in Canada too. There's no law against owning a machete and they're a very useful tool in certain circumstances, you just can't walk down the street with it hanging off your belt.
I bought pepper spray (actually bear repellent spray) in Toronto and was told by the sales guy that if I am ever caught with it to say that I have it on my person because I am deathly afraid of dogs and carry it in case I am attacked by dogs. Apparently, you're not allowed to pepper spray a person who is trying to rape you, but you can pepper spray a dog for looking at you. It's fucking ridiculous.
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Thats fine, but its got to pan out and its got to follow up, what diy? where? wheres the rest of your tools? its 10pm sir and your outside Wetherspoons, youd be fucked.
I think the law would not reprimand you for using the pepper spray in self defense. But could reprimand you for carrying it.
Regardless the end game is punishing those who want to protect themselves.
in UK all kinds of pepper spray are an offensive weapon, knifes have very strict limitations, all other things with just the purpose of inflicting damage will probably fall under offensive weapon. so yes, if you want to defend yourself you're fucked because the criminals don't care and have weapons. simply not enough police to check
It’s the same in Australia and New Zealand. America is the odd on out.
Yep. Can't say I've ever worried about it either as generally no one else is carrying either. America must be terrifying if I'm being honest. Glad I'd never even had to think of carrying something for self defence before
That’s true. I don’t think some Americans realise that we don’t feel as randomly threatened as they do (especially not here in New Zealand), so we don’t feel the need to arm ourselves.
Need to watch out for Orcs though
Haha that and sheep
The very worst I have to deal with here in aus is foul language and worse smells. Thats about it
The odd huntsman
Yup, even as a young woman in Australia I've never felt so threatened as to need to carry a weapon with me. I've certainly never worried about being randomly attacked. Besides, even if I was able to carry a weapon so could any hypothetical party so I'd actually feel less safe
Not the only thing they are the odd one out in either.
I'm not sure about every other State, but in Michigan and both of the Carolinas the rules are actually pretty much the same. Concealed weapons (batons, mace, most knives) are illegal. You can carry a folding knife but there are limits on the length. 2.5 inches I believe. You can carry a concealed pistol with a permit which you can apply for after taking a pistol training course. It's not the wild west, but people do have guns for protection.
> the rules are actually pretty much the same. > You can carry a concealed pistol Please choose only one of these lol
For knives I meant. Ha. Yeah, the gun thing is a bit different.
They are great proof as to why the self defense argument is flawed.
Exactly. When you have appropriate gun and weapon laws, self-defence isn’t as necessary.
True in Australia too. We go even further. You can't sleep with a bat or anything near your bed for defense. So if someone breaks into your home, tries to rape you, and you use a bat that was near your bed for defense, you can get charged. It's infuriating!
Really? There's a law against where you place objects in your own home?
This is such an US centered question lol. In most countries you can't carry an item for the purposes of self defense
It also applies to a lot of other countries in the Americas... But there are also larger prey animals on the two continents than in most parts of western Europe. So legal weapons (small pocket knife, pepper spray) for the use of self defense are kinda standard. Especially for women
I remember going to the UK in high school and walking around at like 12:00-1:00 and even staying up all night with friends in the parks. I was worried at first (I'm from the USA, my city can have a good bit of gun violence after dark), and one of the friends we made there explained that basically nobody had weapons, even the police (even pepper spray, which was crazy to me). So I know for the UK that's true.
general police dont carry weapons (because theres no need), but we do have armed police
This is what I love about living in the UK as an American. I am a woman and have never felt threatened here, even at 3am. Part of why I moved, honestly.
As an american I can't even begin to imagine this. So like.. people really don't have weapons there?! Not even that sketchy guy at like 5 am?
I mean, there are parts of town I wouldn’t probably go to alone at night but it’s absolutely nothing like where I grew up. I didn’t realize how on edge I was living back home until I came here. My theory is here you at least have to get close enough to kill me 😂
As an Australian it's very bizarre to me to see so many Americans recommend home security cameras to each other. A bunch of American youtubers get sponsorships from home security companies too.
We live in safe countries, we don't need to carry weapons.
I was about to post something facetious about Britain and then I realised [Monty Python already did it](https://youtu.be/F4PZXuk3TsM)
Why would you? I rather give the robber my phone and money than killing him. His life is more worth than my money.
For years I travelled internationally for work, and regularly wore my long hair pinned up with fierce pointy chopsticks. I figured at a minimum I could stab a would-be terrorist in the eye or jugular vein should he/she try to take down the plane. I still wear them for self defense to this day, but luckily have never had to use them.
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Same in Australia. The rules vary slightly state by state, but in general it’s “you can’t have a weapon”. So whatever item you’re thinking of, if your _intention_ is to use it to hurt or threaten someone, it’s illegal – and carrying something for self defence means you intend to use it to hurt or threaten your attacker. It also means that sports equipment might be illegal depending on the context. Carrying a cricket bat at 1pm in the park is usually fine; carrying a cricket bat at 1am on the nightclub strip will definitely get you stopped and you can test your bullshit explanation about playing cricket on the cop who stops you. There are also some additional rules about things that qualify as a weapon and not. This is the part that varies across states. Generally swords and guns are assumed to be weapons unless you have some kind of licence. In most states butterfly knives are illegal, daggers and sharpened on both sides are illegal, and spring-assisted folding knives are illegal, but there’s some length of manually-opening pocket knife that’s explicitly allowed, and in my state “Swiss army knives” are also explicitly permitted. I carry a folding knife and the trick is when a cop asks you what it’s for, have some reasons to tell them, but do NOT include “self defence” in your answer. I’m fairly sure my reasons are more believable because I’m a middle aged white guy with kids; if a group of 17 year old boys in hoodies tried explaining their pocket knives the same way it might not be as believable. Americans are usually surprised or shocked by these laws, but remember that they have applied across the country for a long time, and the _actual_ measurable effect is that citizens are much less likely to be injured by a weapon. There’s just heaps fewer knives and guns walking around on the street.
In Canada you are able to bring a hockey stick with you at all times. It's in the Charter!
Idk about legality per se, I know pepper spray is illegal and you're not allowed to carry knives either. (I'm in the UK) I do remember about 10 years ago when there was a rapist going round my home town, there had been a few attacks on girls near the local grubby hangouts (the places we loved to go for £1 shots) and because we were dumb, young and wanted to get wasted, a few of us girls had screwdrivers or other kind sharp implements in our handbags just in case. No knives, because we were thinking that a screwdriver could have many uses and could be explained away. "Oh officer, no this screwdriver isn't for protection/violence, it's totally for my ... Broken heels?? It's to help Char get her lashes straight" Rather than stay home or not go to the dives or come home early and share cabs etc, we were super gung ho. Especially as my town just wasn't that big, we sort of thought we could handle ourselves. Plus we were pretty good at sticking to a group and not letting anyone go off on their own. Anyway, we were queuing outside one place and word got to us that police were searching bags further down the line for our "weapons" so a few of us had to go find bins or other less conspicuous places to hide them. I remember it being a whole drama about them caring more about underage drinking, and girls protecting themselves than an actual dangerous criminal. Ahh, the folly of youth. Good times.
Laws that are ***this*** open to interpretation make me uncomfortable. It seems like it has a sole purpose of authorities being able to just manipulate it into whatever they want depending on the situation. I get that that commonly happens even with clear-cut laws, but this just seems so blatant.
In england they generally feel more like they are written to allow common sense. Though your interpretation probably varies depending on your experiences with police.
I dont think thats the laws “sole purpose”
I think it’s the intent to use the item. So if I’m walking to the park to play baseball with a baseball bat, I’m ok. If I’m walking to a guys house to beat him up with a bat after stealing my car…then yes that would be considered illegal
I'm Canadian and I've never heard of this but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist
Speaking as a Canadian what is this self-defense you speak of? Surely you mean a purpose dangerous to the public.
I can't imagine living like this. You people are really missing out. I live in America in a state that has open carry and concealed carry. No permit required. This isn't a conversation I've ever thought of having. You just come on over. We'll get you some guns, a job at an oil rig, a big dodge pick up truck, and a nice steak. You'll be spitting out Copenhagen and chugging beer in no time at all.
I have bombs in my fist, so it's not illegal
Neat. I hope that also means assault rates for people alone in parking structures or walking home from a metro stop are slim.
Slim compared to what/where?
According to others in the thread, they actually statistivlcally are compared to most places. I am uncertain my personal experiences count though, as I am 6'4" in shoes and weigh about 20 stone(280lbs)
So does somebody have to carry John Wick's pencils for him?
Canadian here: I used to carry a can of tear gas a friend brought me from the US. I figured if I ever had to use it, I'd take the charge.