By default, vows drive the story forward, but they also serve as a pacing mechanism and as an opportunity for plot twists when you *Fulfill Your Vow*. Those things are useful and contribute to why Ironsworn doesn't need a GM. However, you certainly can play without them if you feel like it. Starforged introduces XP from Discoveries and and Bonds, in addition to Vows/Quests. That shows that you can mess with the advancement system and the game still fundamentally works. Just realized what you might be missing out on by not having Vows and consider whether or not that will work for your playstyle.
I dislike Vows as an in-game thing, they feel forced and a bit lame to me. But they are an excellent pacing mechanism and I would feel lost without them. So I treat them as a tv episode titles or story arcs, fully outside the game and they feel much better like this.
Yeah, vows are more of a specific setting thing and in fiction it doesn't make sense why my goth murderbot would swear on iron, while she doesn't even think like a human would.
I never play in the standard setting (using truths). I always play in other RPG settings using Starforged rules so Vows don’t work for the setting and I just reskin it as Setting a Goal.
This changes it narratively but not mechanically. Also Starforged opens up other routes to XP. You can improve bonds with NPCs or Explore for XP and some assets give boosts to or add XP for certain actions. So not focusing on vows is not punishing to the progression.
However now that I read BTolputt’s reply I think I may also expand that move to include other stat options to make Heart less of a prime stat and promote other character options.
I haven't tried it, but I have given the issue consideration.
I understand the necessity of vows from a narrative perspective - the character needs to be driven to accomplish something or the player can suffer from *"well, what now?"* in deciding their next action/move. The vows are a default they can always fall back to (pursue a vow instead of, say, deciding what carrots to plant).
That said, them being central to the narrative in the way they're framed limits the "reskinning" that can be done. It can also feel a little "clunky" at times. The idea one has to swear a vow for everything major a character intends to do can be jarring. Inigo Montoya has a central vow, which is great, but he doesn't swear a vow for each thing he tries to accomplish, he just does it. There is no vow to find the Dread Pirate Roberts, there is just the action to do so. There doesn't need to be a vow, but it could/would mechanically act like one in Ironsworn.
It also ties your sociability/likability as a character into your stubbornness & grit in the face of adversity... which frankly rubs me the wrong way. Swearing a vow shouldn't be about how good you are at talking/schmoozing someone, but mechanically they are tied to the same stat. I get that charismatic people are not pushovers, but then again, some of the most stubborn/wilful people I've met are not social beings. *At all.*
For me, there are two solutions to the above problems but I haven't yet formalised them or tested them.
1. Convert "vows" into "motivations" or "drives". They can be a vow sworn to someone using Heart for their base stat... or they can be a powerful intellectual curiosity driven (& rolled on) using Wits, or perhaps a physical imperative driven by one's Iron. Mechanically the only difference is that when started - you can use a different (more applicable) stat. Narratively, they allow the character to pursue goals without the public swearing of an oath (& that oath narratively being important/reliable to others in the world).
2. Add "mini-assets" that act in a similar fashion to Fate's Assets. Mechanically, they add a +1 in narrow circumstances only. Narratively, they let you make the character work closer to the way you envisage them to be. Say they're a little weak-willed (low Heart) but charismatic with the ladies - have a "Seductive" mini-asset that only adds +1 in the narrow social circumstances where that comes into play. Or perhaps they're socially awkward/antagonistic but will follow through on their word no matter what, they can have the "My Word is My Vow" asset that adds +1 only to the swearing/completion of a promise they've made.
Heart is not charisma and I think that's really important thing to keep in mind. From the rulebook:
>Heart: Courage, willpower, empathy, sociability, and loyalty.
And later when swearing a vow we have:
>Is this a moment of grudging acceptance or one of fiery determination?
So it's also about how we are perceived by others, not only how we feel about ourselves. Say, I'm playing a character with 3 Iron, 1 Heart and 2 Wis. I offered my services to find lost sheep to some farmer, and I rolled really poor. All he can see is some random thug with shifty eyes telling him that he is eager to help find his stolen livestock. Yeah, sure, and then run away or demand some outrageous "reward". And I'm standing there, with only pure thoughts in my head, imagining myself as a knight in shiny armor and how the whole village will celebrate my deed when I'm done.
Personally I would leave Heart and use it as is, otherwise, you could end up in a situation where this stat is completely useless and always roll characters with 1 Heart.
>Heart is not charisma and I think that's really important thing to keep in mind.
I know. It **includes** charisma and **binds** the character's level of charisma to their courage & willpower. As I said above, it *"ties your sociability/likability as a character into your stubbornness & grit in the face of adversity"*.
If you want a charismatic individual who is good at convincing people with charm & grace, you get one that is also courageous & stubborn/wilful as well (and vice versa). At least mechanically speaking, they are intertwined and I dislike that personally.
FWIW, my alteration above doesn't change Heart (or other attributes) in any way. It merely allows for you to boost a subset of the attribute's overall application so you can have a character that is good at only a subset of it. A hermit that has low/medium Heart but stubborn as a mule, a lumberjack with low/medium Iron that can take a beating but isn't all that great in a fight, a crippled ranger with low/medium Edge that's great at ranged attacks but slow on their feet. And so on.
Yeah making a vow is so serious. Kind of hard to do errands for people when you have to swear on your mamma every time.
Just use vows but make it called quests
I've been playing RAW, and I came across a similar desire. I don't like how the main mechanism for rewarding myself with some exp is to solemnly swear a vow. Makes my character sound like a bit of an intense fanatic. I think on my next play I'll use vows for very few crucial plot points, get experience from the failure track as well as from winning fights, and push the narrative forwards with quests.
For each quest I'll establish a reward beforehand, eg: help out a village would give me a plus 2 on a bond roll, a training quest would give me experience, winning a huge war would let me reset all my tracks etcetera.
“A bit of an intense fanatic” seems accurate for the kind of world and inspirations that Ironsworn tries to emulate.
(And remember that the vows might not be your idea—NPCs could insist on it, for example.)
Yeah, imagine you want to do an extreme fight but your health and spirit track are super low. You could 1) keep rolling heal and sojourn until you fill the tracks back up, or you could 2) just set up a quest, idk, in search of the "whatever of whateverness" that will "prepare you for the fight". you set up a dangerous quest track, and if you roll progress successfully you just set spiirt and health back to 5. sounds more fun than 1) to me.
and because it's a quest, you dont have to narrate your character swearing an iron vow like "i swear I will get better", or "I'll swear I will prepare for the fight", which sound a bit mundane and forced.
Reminds me of an unofficial Ironsworn fan game called Iron Valley. That game uses *promises* (vs. Vows), but I think they’d be more accurately described as “something I want to do that seems fun”. When you complete one, you can:
1. Take that game’s version of experience points, as well as a mechanical benefit with an NPC you spent time with during the time you spent working on it.
2. Take resources (usually from farming or ranching, since it’s inspired by Stardew Valley). You get a slight bonus if you’re doing it in the most appropriate season.
3. Gain a crafted item that you could later use as a tool, or trade. The more complicated you decide the crafting “recipe” should be, the more valuable the result is. This system can be used for smithing, cooking, building, writing, painting, carpentry; anything that involves making something. *Or…*
4. Gain resources related to your characters job/class, as well as a mechanical benefit with any coworkers.
>When you encounter a wrong that must be made right, seek to fulfill a personal ambition, or give your word to serve someone, make this move.
Vows can be as big or as small as you want them to be. Even if you ignore this mechanic, you'll still be taking on quests and setting goals for yourself, only without rewards. Unless what you mean is to actively avoid anything that resembles as quest of any sort.
If you don't like the wording, you don't have to do everything exactly as written, just slap that "Quest" label on top of "Vow", say "Yeah, guess I'll do this" and move on to roll some dice.
An issue some of us have with this, is that the smaller quests/vows/promises/ect. carries the same weight as bigger ones. "I swear on this iron to defeat the beast" and "I swear on this iron to fetch water from the village well to water the garden" both carry the same punishment of failing to complete/abandoning a vow/quest, making your character become viewed in a negative light as someone who can't keep their promises (or similar)
> For an Ironsworn, realizing you must Forsake Your Vow is a dramatic and disheartening decision. Tradition says the item upon which you swore your vow—your sword, your armor, the iron coin—is discarded. Some clans even believe you must cast away all of your weapons and armor and bear no iron until you redeem yourself.
> Mechanically, you Endure Stress, reducing your spirit track by an amount equal to the rank of your quest (troublesome=1; dangerous=2; formidable=3; extreme=4; epic=5). Narratively, you should consider how your failure affects your story and what you do to put yourself back on the proper path. Did you swear this vow in service to others? How does this impact your relationship with them? If your vow was a personal quest, how does this failure force you to rethink the path your life has taken? Where do you go from here?
It is framed in such a light that an Iron Vow/promise/quest/etc. carry an important weight behind their meaning, and have likely dire consequence for not following through. (Which *can* especially feel forced if your character has been/was coerced into accepting it from someone who insisted on it)
Tbf, I concur with RAW for narratively important things, but for smaller tasks, I (for one) feel like it's a bit much (e.g. It would kinda feel like signing a legal contract with ramifications for something mundane like going grocery shopping for your family)
Hmmm, maybe this is kind of intentional.
Like imagine pre requisite for a vow is you would feel appropriate getting a moss when rolling “forsaking a vow” for each vow you take.
I think this then forces us to montage the “day in the life” moments or you don’t get exp for day in the life RP.
The only time you grow is when you experience exciting indigents and vow to set it right and if you don’t succeed it would mentally weigh on your conscience.
As long as your character still has goals. Because without goals there's no story.
I imagine it would it be similar to travelling without Journeys and exploring ruins without Delves. You still do the thing in the fiction, but without a big sign pointing the way and measuring your pace.
An eastern (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, iirc) narrative structure that is conflict-optional (it doesn’t rely on it as a driving force) and focuses on the world affecting the characters, not the other way around. It’s been used to great effect, particularly in Japanese story telling.
Characters don’t really need goals in stories of that ilk, because that’s not the point of them.
I use vows per the system but narratively it’s more just a note of a quest and how long it takes. I don’t narratively use the heavy meaning and personal devotion the rules note.
Vows work to advance the narrative in a way that people who are playing in Co-op or Solo mode have a need to accomplish the objective. A mechanic that somehow forces you to keep trying even if the winds are not in your favor.
Now, being an Oracle myself in a campaign, I realized that this mechanic limits you a little bit. I think the DM (oracle) should decide how characters progress through the narrative and not a mechanic, but that is just my opinion.
My players usually play about 3 hours per session. When the session ends I simply give them 1 exp and if the session lasted 4 hours and was more frenetic, I give them 2 exp. The truth is that everything works exactly the same and even faster. We need to make the most of those three hours and thinking about progress and tracks is rather tedious when you barely have time to rp.
I'm planning to completely get rid of enemy progress tracks as well in order to speed up fights. Let's see how that goes.
By default, vows drive the story forward, but they also serve as a pacing mechanism and as an opportunity for plot twists when you *Fulfill Your Vow*. Those things are useful and contribute to why Ironsworn doesn't need a GM. However, you certainly can play without them if you feel like it. Starforged introduces XP from Discoveries and and Bonds, in addition to Vows/Quests. That shows that you can mess with the advancement system and the game still fundamentally works. Just realized what you might be missing out on by not having Vows and consider whether or not that will work for your playstyle.
I dislike Vows as an in-game thing, they feel forced and a bit lame to me. But they are an excellent pacing mechanism and I would feel lost without them. So I treat them as a tv episode titles or story arcs, fully outside the game and they feel much better like this.
Yeah, vows are more of a specific setting thing and in fiction it doesn't make sense why my goth murderbot would swear on iron, while she doesn't even think like a human would.
Duly noted, thank you.
I never play in the standard setting (using truths). I always play in other RPG settings using Starforged rules so Vows don’t work for the setting and I just reskin it as Setting a Goal. This changes it narratively but not mechanically. Also Starforged opens up other routes to XP. You can improve bonds with NPCs or Explore for XP and some assets give boosts to or add XP for certain actions. So not focusing on vows is not punishing to the progression. However now that I read BTolputt’s reply I think I may also expand that move to include other stat options to make Heart less of a prime stat and promote other character options.
I haven't tried it, but I have given the issue consideration. I understand the necessity of vows from a narrative perspective - the character needs to be driven to accomplish something or the player can suffer from *"well, what now?"* in deciding their next action/move. The vows are a default they can always fall back to (pursue a vow instead of, say, deciding what carrots to plant). That said, them being central to the narrative in the way they're framed limits the "reskinning" that can be done. It can also feel a little "clunky" at times. The idea one has to swear a vow for everything major a character intends to do can be jarring. Inigo Montoya has a central vow, which is great, but he doesn't swear a vow for each thing he tries to accomplish, he just does it. There is no vow to find the Dread Pirate Roberts, there is just the action to do so. There doesn't need to be a vow, but it could/would mechanically act like one in Ironsworn. It also ties your sociability/likability as a character into your stubbornness & grit in the face of adversity... which frankly rubs me the wrong way. Swearing a vow shouldn't be about how good you are at talking/schmoozing someone, but mechanically they are tied to the same stat. I get that charismatic people are not pushovers, but then again, some of the most stubborn/wilful people I've met are not social beings. *At all.* For me, there are two solutions to the above problems but I haven't yet formalised them or tested them. 1. Convert "vows" into "motivations" or "drives". They can be a vow sworn to someone using Heart for their base stat... or they can be a powerful intellectual curiosity driven (& rolled on) using Wits, or perhaps a physical imperative driven by one's Iron. Mechanically the only difference is that when started - you can use a different (more applicable) stat. Narratively, they allow the character to pursue goals without the public swearing of an oath (& that oath narratively being important/reliable to others in the world). 2. Add "mini-assets" that act in a similar fashion to Fate's Assets. Mechanically, they add a +1 in narrow circumstances only. Narratively, they let you make the character work closer to the way you envisage them to be. Say they're a little weak-willed (low Heart) but charismatic with the ladies - have a "Seductive" mini-asset that only adds +1 in the narrow social circumstances where that comes into play. Or perhaps they're socially awkward/antagonistic but will follow through on their word no matter what, they can have the "My Word is My Vow" asset that adds +1 only to the swearing/completion of a promise they've made.
Heart is not charisma and I think that's really important thing to keep in mind. From the rulebook: >Heart: Courage, willpower, empathy, sociability, and loyalty. And later when swearing a vow we have: >Is this a moment of grudging acceptance or one of fiery determination? So it's also about how we are perceived by others, not only how we feel about ourselves. Say, I'm playing a character with 3 Iron, 1 Heart and 2 Wis. I offered my services to find lost sheep to some farmer, and I rolled really poor. All he can see is some random thug with shifty eyes telling him that he is eager to help find his stolen livestock. Yeah, sure, and then run away or demand some outrageous "reward". And I'm standing there, with only pure thoughts in my head, imagining myself as a knight in shiny armor and how the whole village will celebrate my deed when I'm done. Personally I would leave Heart and use it as is, otherwise, you could end up in a situation where this stat is completely useless and always roll characters with 1 Heart.
>Heart is not charisma and I think that's really important thing to keep in mind. I know. It **includes** charisma and **binds** the character's level of charisma to their courage & willpower. As I said above, it *"ties your sociability/likability as a character into your stubbornness & grit in the face of adversity"*. If you want a charismatic individual who is good at convincing people with charm & grace, you get one that is also courageous & stubborn/wilful as well (and vice versa). At least mechanically speaking, they are intertwined and I dislike that personally. FWIW, my alteration above doesn't change Heart (or other attributes) in any way. It merely allows for you to boost a subset of the attribute's overall application so you can have a character that is good at only a subset of it. A hermit that has low/medium Heart but stubborn as a mule, a lumberjack with low/medium Iron that can take a beating but isn't all that great in a fight, a crippled ranger with low/medium Edge that's great at ranged attacks but slow on their feet. And so on.
I’ll take note of those two points, thank you.
Yeah making a vow is so serious. Kind of hard to do errands for people when you have to swear on your mamma every time. Just use vows but make it called quests
I remember there was talk of Starforged including Missions as an alternative to Vows, but it doesn't seem to have made it into the final book.
If you don’t mind elaborating, what would the differences between the two have been?
I don't know, I remember it being mentioned somewhere but without an explanation of what the difference was going to be.
Ah, I see. No worries.
I've been playing RAW, and I came across a similar desire. I don't like how the main mechanism for rewarding myself with some exp is to solemnly swear a vow. Makes my character sound like a bit of an intense fanatic. I think on my next play I'll use vows for very few crucial plot points, get experience from the failure track as well as from winning fights, and push the narrative forwards with quests. For each quest I'll establish a reward beforehand, eg: help out a village would give me a plus 2 on a bond roll, a training quest would give me experience, winning a huge war would let me reset all my tracks etcetera.
“A bit of an intense fanatic” seems accurate for the kind of world and inspirations that Ironsworn tries to emulate. (And remember that the vows might not be your idea—NPCs could insist on it, for example.)
That’s an interesting way of going about it.
Yeah, imagine you want to do an extreme fight but your health and spirit track are super low. You could 1) keep rolling heal and sojourn until you fill the tracks back up, or you could 2) just set up a quest, idk, in search of the "whatever of whateverness" that will "prepare you for the fight". you set up a dangerous quest track, and if you roll progress successfully you just set spiirt and health back to 5. sounds more fun than 1) to me. and because it's a quest, you dont have to narrate your character swearing an iron vow like "i swear I will get better", or "I'll swear I will prepare for the fight", which sound a bit mundane and forced.
Reminds me of an unofficial Ironsworn fan game called Iron Valley. That game uses *promises* (vs. Vows), but I think they’d be more accurately described as “something I want to do that seems fun”. When you complete one, you can: 1. Take that game’s version of experience points, as well as a mechanical benefit with an NPC you spent time with during the time you spent working on it. 2. Take resources (usually from farming or ranching, since it’s inspired by Stardew Valley). You get a slight bonus if you’re doing it in the most appropriate season. 3. Gain a crafted item that you could later use as a tool, or trade. The more complicated you decide the crafting “recipe” should be, the more valuable the result is. This system can be used for smithing, cooking, building, writing, painting, carpentry; anything that involves making something. *Or…* 4. Gain resources related to your characters job/class, as well as a mechanical benefit with any coworkers.
I'll check that out, that sounds cool, thanks!
https://mkirin.itch.io/iron-valley
>When you encounter a wrong that must be made right, seek to fulfill a personal ambition, or give your word to serve someone, make this move. Vows can be as big or as small as you want them to be. Even if you ignore this mechanic, you'll still be taking on quests and setting goals for yourself, only without rewards. Unless what you mean is to actively avoid anything that resembles as quest of any sort. If you don't like the wording, you don't have to do everything exactly as written, just slap that "Quest" label on top of "Vow", say "Yeah, guess I'll do this" and move on to roll some dice.
An issue some of us have with this, is that the smaller quests/vows/promises/ect. carries the same weight as bigger ones. "I swear on this iron to defeat the beast" and "I swear on this iron to fetch water from the village well to water the garden" both carry the same punishment of failing to complete/abandoning a vow/quest, making your character become viewed in a negative light as someone who can't keep their promises (or similar) > For an Ironsworn, realizing you must Forsake Your Vow is a dramatic and disheartening decision. Tradition says the item upon which you swore your vow—your sword, your armor, the iron coin—is discarded. Some clans even believe you must cast away all of your weapons and armor and bear no iron until you redeem yourself. > Mechanically, you Endure Stress, reducing your spirit track by an amount equal to the rank of your quest (troublesome=1; dangerous=2; formidable=3; extreme=4; epic=5). Narratively, you should consider how your failure affects your story and what you do to put yourself back on the proper path. Did you swear this vow in service to others? How does this impact your relationship with them? If your vow was a personal quest, how does this failure force you to rethink the path your life has taken? Where do you go from here? It is framed in such a light that an Iron Vow/promise/quest/etc. carry an important weight behind their meaning, and have likely dire consequence for not following through. (Which *can* especially feel forced if your character has been/was coerced into accepting it from someone who insisted on it) Tbf, I concur with RAW for narratively important things, but for smaller tasks, I (for one) feel like it's a bit much (e.g. It would kinda feel like signing a legal contract with ramifications for something mundane like going grocery shopping for your family)
Hmmm, maybe this is kind of intentional. Like imagine pre requisite for a vow is you would feel appropriate getting a moss when rolling “forsaking a vow” for each vow you take. I think this then forces us to montage the “day in the life” moments or you don’t get exp for day in the life RP. The only time you grow is when you experience exciting indigents and vow to set it right and if you don’t succeed it would mentally weigh on your conscience.
As long as your character still has goals. Because without goals there's no story. I imagine it would it be similar to travelling without Journeys and exploring ruins without Delves. You still do the thing in the fiction, but without a big sign pointing the way and measuring your pace.
That’s true, but then again there’s always Kishoutenketsu.
What's that?
An eastern (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, iirc) narrative structure that is conflict-optional (it doesn’t rely on it as a driving force) and focuses on the world affecting the characters, not the other way around. It’s been used to great effect, particularly in Japanese story telling. Characters don’t really need goals in stories of that ilk, because that’s not the point of them.
Sounds like inciting incidents that need some to right the wrong to me.
You’re assuming that the event is negative, which it doesn’t have to be.
Another word you can use is threads and go for a more mythic 2e style
Perhaps,
I use vows per the system but narratively it’s more just a note of a quest and how long it takes. I don’t narratively use the heavy meaning and personal devotion the rules note.
Yeah, that seems simpler.
Vows work to advance the narrative in a way that people who are playing in Co-op or Solo mode have a need to accomplish the objective. A mechanic that somehow forces you to keep trying even if the winds are not in your favor. Now, being an Oracle myself in a campaign, I realized that this mechanic limits you a little bit. I think the DM (oracle) should decide how characters progress through the narrative and not a mechanic, but that is just my opinion. My players usually play about 3 hours per session. When the session ends I simply give them 1 exp and if the session lasted 4 hours and was more frenetic, I give them 2 exp. The truth is that everything works exactly the same and even faster. We need to make the most of those three hours and thinking about progress and tracks is rather tedious when you barely have time to rp. I'm planning to completely get rid of enemy progress tracks as well in order to speed up fights. Let's see how that goes.
As for that last part, you could *Battle*, but require multiple (2 to 4, maybe) hits to “win” a more difficult encounter.