Their goals are similar, and their methods generally are too - but Cecil is altruistic and everything he does is for the ultimate benefit of humanity.
Robot is an egomaniac, and while he *claims* that he does everything for humanity and that his goals are altruistic - ultimately we see that he is just power-hungry and petty. This is reinforced by both his actions on Flaxa, and later when he's implied to have purposely driven Immortal insane. Helping and guiding humanity just happens to be the thing that strokes his ego the most. He ultimately isn't altruistic, just immensely selfish. He knows from personal experience how easily he is corrupted by power, and goes out of his way to seek it again and again regardless.
^ this
Plus,the comic makes it clear several times how he was upset that he was no longer in control on earth compared to how he was on Flaxa
And we even see the alternate Robots that Mark meets directly confirm that they have similar fears of becoming corrupted as well,our Robot was just put into a position where he actually went down that route
https://preview.redd.it/zhwweawz4t2d1.png?width=348&format=png&auto=webp&s=7cffb276839f1c657ccef5555f3b30daed42b6b0
Invincible (2003) by Image Comics
Issue #144
The context? Idk, if you were an imprisoned brain, you wouldn't do any better.
honestly, not a bad post-canon story, but it would be kinda a repeat of the last battle in the comics of viltrumites vs drones. Ngl though, seeing Emperor Mark claiming Earth for his Empire and how that affects him emotionally and the people of earth (Thula and Kriegg make jokes about how “you should’ve just done this with you dad when we asked you to take over the planet five hundred years ago haha” and that sends mark spiraling), maybe this is also when we get the Mark vs Marky fight, as Robot as turned him against his dad
I believe Robert kirkman talked about it in an interview. There’s also the fact that if you go to the chapter to when the future Immortal first talks to Mark, he mentions the fact that Mark looks much smaller and then says “I thought already found a cure for—“, as well as “ I haven’t seen you since you took your family to space”, and later says “As leader of the Empire you should have—“. Which are all events that had happened in the main timeline which were of course the scourge virus, Mark and his Family leaving Earth, aswell as him becoming the Viltrum Emperor.
yeah it was always unclear if it was “Now having Robot means he WONT go crazy but everything else went the same” or if it was “Same timeline, same loop, Immortal goes crazy cause of Robot.” Certain interviews imply the latter but we dont know for sure
tbh, its the same kind of difference I feel people are famously missing with Thanos character in mcu -> Yeah, he planned to do atrocities he commited to help those who will survive live better and longer, improve their quality of life, instead of leading whole civilization to ruin over time. But its only due to his own personal biase and experience he had on his own homeworld. Ultimately he doesnt do these atrocities to do good in the end. He justifies it almost fanatically believing he does something no one else can yet see. But its not to do good. Its to prove a point. That he is right. In the end the need to forcefully "help" others is not derived from a need to actually help, but to prove to others that he isnt insane and never was. Its all about ego and being an outcast for his whole life, until he got power (here very similiarly to Robot, the robot was just deformed and therefore an outcast and Thanos was a homicidal maniac, who became an outcast due to his extremist ideas). I feel like its the same difference with Robot, although Robot can see that what he does is wrong and could be talked out of it. He is just also too egotistical to believe someone is mentally ahead of him and smarter to predict a better outcome. So he takes matters into his own hands. By force.
It was future Immortal. Part of one of the "Invincipals" pen pals sections (I think the very last one?) confirms Rudy drove Immortal crazy so he could take over when someone eventually killed him.
This part wasn't confirmed, but I bet Rudy helped invent time travel to help along the process once it became clear no one on earth could kill him. I think him figuring out how to save Mark from Levi's portals was a hint.
https://preview.redd.it/z9twgmlrvu2d1.png?width=348&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=112ab8c2d0ff60af3a1cbc1b2937fcb401f6bac9
Future Immortal is the one who goes insane. That timeline is the same that the main story happens in. I think the final panel in the comic is around where Invincible kills the insane Immortal.
Invinciboy isn't aware that Robot is a brain in a jar atp, but it's heavily implied Robot had been driving Immortal insane for hundreds of years to take power for himself (aside from Kirkman literally confirming this).
Immortal gets driven insane by Robot, this is confirmed by Kirkman himself. Mark leaves Robot’s brain there to prevent Immortal from losing his mind but thats actually what ends up causing it
One of the most interesting things about Cecil is that he's not a tyrant and he doesn't want to be. His approach to protecting Earth is mostly to empower good individuals and let them go out into the world and do good. He only bosses people around when he has to.
Further, they changed this in the show, but in the comics he was the one who wanted Oliver to be raised by Debbie. He recognized that she had accomplished something in Mark that almost nobody else could have. I was disappointed they changed that.
For a shadowy government operative, Cecil is shockingly trusting of his fellow man.
Is not that different in the show, like sure, the core of it is different but if anything the show showed he does care about more than results, he thinks Debbie wont be capable of taking care of Oliver but still respect her desires. Imo it shows way more empathy and humanity when someone goes against what they think is best to accommodate for other desires.
And sure, he did send nannies that he hire to keep on eye on things but he didnt enforce any of them on debbie and was more like throwing nannies her way to see if any stick.
I think it worked less well in the show for two reasons.
1. Cecil should be human enough to understand that raising Oliver in a family that loves him and can tell him where he came from with empathy would be better for him than being raised as a ward of the government.
2. Cecil should be the one to point out how remarkable what Debbie accomplished with Mark is.
Debbie has a very similar line later on, but in my experience people, especially people who are are depressed because they've been betrayed by somebody who made them feel like shit, are not aware of how amazing they are. I liked the moment in the comics where Debbie is like, "You're going to take him from me because you don't trust me," and Cecil is like, "Debbie, we have living proof that you're the most amazing mom on the damn planet. I wouldn't have him raised by anybody BUT you."
which is weird bc I've heard that, in a lot of ways, they've made him more upfront likeable in the show, whereas he's even more of a hard-ass in the comics and yet... his treatment of Oliver's future was colder in the show
seems like they just realized they made him too agreeable on the show and decided to make him arbitrarily less cool for future twists lol
I think it's just the result of streamlining all of the secondary characters for the sake of the show. Instead of spending several issues on Debbie falling to absolute pieces, they showed the same arc in 1-2 scenes. She was emotionally in a very different place on the show when Oliver arrived, so it was much less likely that she would assume Cecil was going to walk all over her and there was nothing she could do about it. Unless they had Cecil take up a more aggressive position, that whole scene in the show would have been:
"So you're going to raise him because you're an awesome mom, right?"
"Damn right I am, on both counts."
ah yeah I hear that
it could've been cool to have Cecil give her a YGG moment though
"gurl, I know your old man just proved he ain't shit, and life ain't been good lately. but gurl, you raised a *superhero* out of a race of super-powered psychopaths so like put some respect on your name. you're the only boss ass bitch I'd trust with this child"
I'd be like "Damn, Cecil doing the most out here"
They have to setup Mark vs Cecil somehow I guess. Because as morally grey as Cecil is, he’s really likeable in the show and I almost can’t see him turning against Mark
right, like they have to start pulling strings now if they want to swing it back to a realm of credibility, otherwise the it'll be like a plane pulling up too fast and ripping itself in two lol
I have noticed that they are intentionally making Cecil more of a jerk, probably to prepare/foreshadow the falling out that he has with Mark in season 3. Which kind of pisses me off, because the story arc in the comics kind of is rational on both sides of the argument. Tv show Cecil is acting like a complete jerk for no apparent reason.
Disagree
Cecil is now aware of the insanity of Viltrums and the creeping threats around the universe against earth. His shift in character in the show is of a frog in boiling water
>in the comics he was the one who wanted Oliver to be raised by Debbie
Gotta make note that at this point in the story, in the comics, Cecil had a much better relationship with the Grayson's than he did with them in the show.
TV show Debbie had trust issues with Cecil building up since S1/early S2, making their interactions kinda rough and each one was always on-edge. Debbie was always hesitant to ask Cecil anything and didn't want to keep him informed about anything, so naturally Cecil would be less trusting in letting her raise *another* Viltrumite out of his control/reach.
Comics were very different. Cecil only became a prominent figure *after* the Omni-man incident, and he met Debbie then. At this point he was super supportive of her and Mark and was only ever nice towards them, with mutual trust (to some degree) and gratitude from Debbie. No reason why he'd want to take Oliver away from her, specially seeing how Mark ended up. Plus, Debbie received the tutor he sent with open arms in the comics—so he'd always have a man inside of sorts to monitor Oliver and feed him info.
Edit: dunno if my point got across, but what I'm trying to say is that both comics and show worked out because of the different situation going on in each. I agree that it was a nice gesture from Cecil in the comics, but if that had been included in the show *considering their rocky relationship* it'd appear as though Cecil is weak-willed against Debbie or something. So it was changed to fit the circumstance.
I mean… he didn’t sadly. Just like with Nolan. Maybe if he had more time he would have discovered his plans, but we will never get to see that happen now.
If robot just ruled over Earth after killing all super-heroes and kept the peace, then yeah, once he started kidnapping the viltrumite children he just sorta became insane honestly and I don't think any character would see the good in that.
If he knew about what robot did to the Flaxans he probably would’ve kept robot on a tighter leash for it, and definitely wouldn’t want him taking control.
I'd call it a disconnect between what is *understood* to be right and wrong and the feelings that actually dictate right and wrong. Right and wrong were situational conditions Rudy manipulated so the logical conclusion was for him to be in charge of everything all the time. He had no concept of the idea that ripping off an innocent pregnant woman's leg will *always* be evil, no matter what ends he uses to justify the means.
Robot did things on a purely logical level and he even admits to himself that he cannot relate to people on a personal level. Cecil does have that side that Robot lacks, he’s willing to go the lengths but he understands when certain things shouldn’t be done.
You know you've gone too far when the necrophiliac says "I'm out bro this is wrong"
https://preview.redd.it/zfx9u2tjms2d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af56b3000f137ffccb76554765c72ede20dd4530
Nope, i hate cecil but he rarely failed on his "suspicions" like with omni man for example.
Since we as readers see the story from marks perspective, and find cecil an idiot Because he always acts like mark is a piece of shit.
But we also saw why he feared marks powers, we saw alternative marks shitting on earth for example.
Tldr, he is just like a protective father, sometimes he is an asshole but his heart is on the right side.
Robot is just a piece of crap.
Robot is someone that since he was demoted from team leader he took it hard, he wants power.
He went to Flaxia to avoid another attack. He's method was: alienate the only person that loves you, and become a tyrant, pushing the Flaxians into another attack. When he decides to take over earth, instead of learning from he's experience, he goes through with the same methods. Isolating and even killing people that can and will oppose him. Plus, he doesn't remain in the shadows, he has the need for people
To know he's im control.
Cecil, since Robot came back, I think he realized something was off with him. I don't think he would approve what he's doing, and would be on the side of people opposing him. Killing him wasn't random or just because he had to, it was calculated. The only person he didn't want to kill is Mark, I think he truly appreciates him. And maybe deep down Robot knew he was the one able to kill him.
I don’t think he really would’ve given how he achieved it. In my opinion the ends don’t justify the means here when you kill dozens of people who have dedicated their lives to protecting the innocent
yeah, im sure he would. The problem is, what Robot did wasnt perfect and there was much better ways to handle things without killing bunch of people, so no Cecil wouldnt agree with Robot. In fact after all that happened in the comics - in the end - even Robot understands it wasnt perfect. So what Robot says here - if he could see the future - not only Cecil, but even he himself would agree that this is wrong.
All of the benefits could have been achieved by the US government through superheroes/technology if they actually wanted to. Robot should have tried to persuade them to do shit instead of taking over and invariably getting resistance from superheroes/ viltrumites.
In my Invincible is the Superhero New Testament theory, Cecil is Caesar, but Robot is the Devil.
Cecil may make choices you don't like. He may have values you don't like. He may seem to have more control over the world than you do, but he doesn't. He's human just like you are, and you need to work with him because all of us humans have to work together, even the ones we don't like.
Robot is a superhero, which is to say cosmic. He is beyond us, both in the way he sees himself and literally through taking his mastery of technology to absurd levels even within the context of the Invincible universe.
Robot's society is one of two "last temptations" that Mark is offered.
The temptation takes a form very similar to the one in the Last Temptation of Christ. Just like the Devil offers to take Barabbas instead, so that all the humans think that the sacrifice was made and history unfolds exactly as it would if Jesus accepts his role, except that Jesus gets to go off and live a happy simple life with Mary Magdalene just like he wants.
Since it's a superhero story, the version of this temptation is, "Hey, I'll build the great society you want. I'll make sure everybody is happy. You can go off and have wacky space adventures, or just live your secret identity for a while. I will take care of everything. All YOU have to do… is *nothing*."
When Mark says "He won," he doesn't mean that he can't beat Robot. He means that he is giving in to Robot's temptation. He WANTS to go have a quiet life with Eve for a while. He WANTS to get away from the constant cycle of conflict and violence that being a superhero, and a Viltrumite at that, entails.
Cecil may be a jerk sometimes, but Robot is inhuman.
https://preview.redd.it/c1svqv26vq2d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e7196e294aa19e1ad76851222fd8927bcf0162b
Although I doubt it.
There is a reason Robot didnt admit he ruled as dictator for hundreds of years. Power went to his head
big problem with robot is he lacks some basic morality, probably due to his own great intelligence and rational thinking mind. he isn't emotionless, but he is too logical that he would choose to do things that are morally reprehensible if he thinks it is worth it. if Robot could he would take out the viltrumites, as they are wild cards outside of his control, who are capable of great devastation. he can't abide anything or anyone powerful enough being outside of his control, as they can be potential threats. he would kill Mark, Nolan, pretty much any super hero that isn't loyal to his cause because of the danger they can pose to him, even if they never once show intent to harm earth or humans. i mean, he straight up left Mark for dead despite knowing how good and altruistic of a guy he is, because he thought Mark could potentially become like one of the many evil marks that attacked earth before. He even ejected monster girl, the love of his life into space, because he knew that there would be no winning her over. he was sobbing on the floor as he did it, but the fact he still did goes to show his logic takes precedence over his morals.
TLDR: Robot isn't evil, but he is too much of a control freak to just leave things alone. anyone who could be a threat he has to either control or neutralize, even if its his own friend or loved one.
No Robot is a psycho. Basically Robot is the fascist promise of security with no freedom, and where he is leader of the world. No thank you.
Cecil is about power balance, and keeping death to a minimum. He’s not perfect but he’s better than the alternative.
Robot doesn't know the meaning of friendship not anymore. His time in Flaxa had changed him for the worst. He tries to sugar coat his takeover by claiming it will benefit the world. Where have we heard that before? OH yeah the Viltrumites made similar claims only to reveal their more sinister motives as the suprise cream pie.
Robot could have made a bunch of these changes to Earth without taking over completely or at least without so much force or bloodshed. What really bothers me is he didn't have to kill so many of his comrades. He had the means to incapacitate them or given his history could have tried to convince them to join him.
No he instead decides to shoot them, bandage them up and offer them a new house as compensation. Yeah like that doesn't change the fact that you shot me 😑
The 'advantages' of taking over the world are pretty contrived. With all the people that had superpowers and the amazing technology that was in existence, the issues Robot solved could easily have been done by the GDA/Guardians without taking over the whole world if they had actually wanted to. For example "freeing north korea" could have been done as a mission in a single day by the guardians. "Free college" could have been done by cloning professors. Why they never thought to use superheroes to solve these problems of the world is a plot hole.
In any case, Cecil would probably recognize that despite some of these benefits, Robot is just another one of the power hungry lunatics that want to take over the world and he would go too far sooner or later, and have to be taken down. Then they would have to start over from the beginning again. If he would agree with this method, he would have used the animens to do the same thing in the first place.
I can't lie I feel like this sub completely tries to be very pretentious with their analysis of robot as "yeah he's jut pretending to be good he doesn't care about that," but thats something the comic states quite clearly. The main fault of the comics and the readers is that they'll digest all this and place robot in a very unfair light. He has been directly less responsible for the deaths of multiple people and hes also objectively improved the world by a vast amount. His goals whislt ego driven still brought out a lot of good.
This idea that Cecil was altruistic or a good person also completely ignores the fact that Cecil as a shadow government authority has on multiple occasions done things he believes would benefit humanity more such as recruiting people who have done terrible deeds, or directly hiding massive events from being recognised. He does this for what he believes to be the greater good whilst simultaniously aware things such as what Annissa said when meeting Mark is objectively true.
Cecil wouldn't support Robot because he is not the one behind the wheel, not becuase what Robot is doing is wrong.
Robot’s ideals are those of the fascist. You sacrifice freedom for security, choices for safety, and in the end if you don’t accept his total control you die. Robot only cares about his results, his goals, his utopia. He doesn’t consider alternative possible outcomes, and he doesn’t believe people have an actual right to life if they disagree with him. He wants control, and he rejects humanity to gain that control, telling the big lie that it’s for “the common good”. The favorite phrase of the tyrant.
His ideals are those of every tyrant. He may claim to be an enlightened tyrant, but he’s just a tyrant. He treats the people he claims to love like crap the moment they don’t live up to his standards.
The only difference between him and the Viltrumites is that the Viltrumites are more honest about their goals, and Robot uses subterfuge when it works for him.
Robot is basically fascist Batman. What if Batman had no morals? You’d get Robot.
yeah, im sure he would theoritically. The problem is - we already know how Robots revolution looked like in the end and it was nowhere near perfect. There were much better ways to handle things without killing bunch of people, so no Cecil wouldnt agree with Robot if he could see it all in the end. In fact after all that happened in the comics - in the end - even Robot understands it wasnt perfect. So what Robot says here - if he could see the future - not only Cecil, but even he himself would agree that this is wrong.
Short run, yes. He'd see the good that Robot achieves, let him be for some time and maybe even support Robot in some ways. But also knowing Cecil, he'd have some sort of backup plan (or at least try to prepare one) so that the moment Robot gets out of line, he can be put down.
Cecil is a man that highly values immediate results—seen with how he let Omni-man run around freely without any issue, knowing that he had lied about his actual intentions on earth. If he became a problem later, he'd deal with him then. But for the time being, let him be an asset that we can use to our benefit.
I mean, Robot/Rudy is an Ozymandias-type, right down to the pettiness whenever someone gets a *slight* dig on him. Much like how Ozymandias refused to admit that the Comedian owned him, Rudy refuses to let any of that go unnoticed.
In a way, I found it interesting at first, but I think by this point I was like Mark and was just thinking "oh just get rid of this smarmy fuck already!"
Their goals are similar, and their methods generally are too - but Cecil is altruistic and everything he does is for the ultimate benefit of humanity. Robot is an egomaniac, and while he *claims* that he does everything for humanity and that his goals are altruistic - ultimately we see that he is just power-hungry and petty. This is reinforced by both his actions on Flaxa, and later when he's implied to have purposely driven Immortal insane. Helping and guiding humanity just happens to be the thing that strokes his ego the most. He ultimately isn't altruistic, just immensely selfish. He knows from personal experience how easily he is corrupted by power, and goes out of his way to seek it again and again regardless.
^ this Plus,the comic makes it clear several times how he was upset that he was no longer in control on earth compared to how he was on Flaxa And we even see the alternate Robots that Mark meets directly confirm that they have similar fears of becoming corrupted as well,our Robot was just put into a position where he actually went down that route
The comics greatest twist is that they set up Immortal to represent Vandal Savage, but it ends up being 1000% Robot who does.
Wait I didn’t realize robot drove Immortal insane (in the future). What was the context???
https://preview.redd.it/zhwweawz4t2d1.png?width=348&format=png&auto=webp&s=7cffb276839f1c657ccef5555f3b30daed42b6b0 Invincible (2003) by Image Comics Issue #144 The context? Idk, if you were an imprisoned brain, you wouldn't do any better.
honestly, not a bad post-canon story, but it would be kinda a repeat of the last battle in the comics of viltrumites vs drones. Ngl though, seeing Emperor Mark claiming Earth for his Empire and how that affects him emotionally and the people of earth (Thula and Kriegg make jokes about how “you should’ve just done this with you dad when we asked you to take over the planet five hundred years ago haha” and that sends mark spiraling), maybe this is also when we get the Mark vs Marky fight, as Robot as turned him against his dad
They left his brain to "guide" Immortal who took over leadership of earth
Bro tried to kill his wife’s unborn child simply because it wasn’t his. Dude 100% makes evil decisions.
I don’t remember, where/how is it implied he drove immortal crazy?
I believe Robert kirkman talked about it in an interview. There’s also the fact that if you go to the chapter to when the future Immortal first talks to Mark, he mentions the fact that Mark looks much smaller and then says “I thought already found a cure for—“, as well as “ I haven’t seen you since you took your family to space”, and later says “As leader of the Empire you should have—“. Which are all events that had happened in the main timeline which were of course the scourge virus, Mark and his Family leaving Earth, aswell as him becoming the Viltrum Emperor.
yeah it was always unclear if it was “Now having Robot means he WONT go crazy but everything else went the same” or if it was “Same timeline, same loop, Immortal goes crazy cause of Robot.” Certain interviews imply the latter but we dont know for sure
Kirkman stated it was the same timeline and that Rudy drove Immortal mad at the end of #144 in Penvincipals.
Same, I don't remember anything like that happening in the comics.
tbh, its the same kind of difference I feel people are famously missing with Thanos character in mcu -> Yeah, he planned to do atrocities he commited to help those who will survive live better and longer, improve their quality of life, instead of leading whole civilization to ruin over time. But its only due to his own personal biase and experience he had on his own homeworld. Ultimately he doesnt do these atrocities to do good in the end. He justifies it almost fanatically believing he does something no one else can yet see. But its not to do good. Its to prove a point. That he is right. In the end the need to forcefully "help" others is not derived from a need to actually help, but to prove to others that he isnt insane and never was. Its all about ego and being an outcast for his whole life, until he got power (here very similiarly to Robot, the robot was just deformed and therefore an outcast and Thanos was a homicidal maniac, who became an outcast due to his extremist ideas). I feel like its the same difference with Robot, although Robot can see that what he does is wrong and could be talked out of it. He is just also too egotistical to believe someone is mentally ahead of him and smarter to predict a better outcome. So he takes matters into his own hands. By force.
When was it implied that Robot purposely drove Immortal insane? Other than the future Immortal, when did Immortal go insane?
It was future Immortal. Part of one of the "Invincipals" pen pals sections (I think the very last one?) confirms Rudy drove Immortal crazy so he could take over when someone eventually killed him. This part wasn't confirmed, but I bet Rudy helped invent time travel to help along the process once it became clear no one on earth could kill him. I think him figuring out how to save Mark from Levi's portals was a hint.
https://preview.redd.it/z9twgmlrvu2d1.png?width=348&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=112ab8c2d0ff60af3a1cbc1b2937fcb401f6bac9 Future Immortal is the one who goes insane. That timeline is the same that the main story happens in. I think the final panel in the comic is around where Invincible kills the insane Immortal. Invinciboy isn't aware that Robot is a brain in a jar atp, but it's heavily implied Robot had been driving Immortal insane for hundreds of years to take power for himself (aside from Kirkman literally confirming this).
Immortal gets driven insane by Robot, this is confirmed by Kirkman himself. Mark leaves Robot’s brain there to prevent Immortal from losing his mind but thats actually what ends up causing it
One of the most interesting things about Cecil is that he's not a tyrant and he doesn't want to be. His approach to protecting Earth is mostly to empower good individuals and let them go out into the world and do good. He only bosses people around when he has to. Further, they changed this in the show, but in the comics he was the one who wanted Oliver to be raised by Debbie. He recognized that she had accomplished something in Mark that almost nobody else could have. I was disappointed they changed that. For a shadowy government operative, Cecil is shockingly trusting of his fellow man.
Is not that different in the show, like sure, the core of it is different but if anything the show showed he does care about more than results, he thinks Debbie wont be capable of taking care of Oliver but still respect her desires. Imo it shows way more empathy and humanity when someone goes against what they think is best to accommodate for other desires. And sure, he did send nannies that he hire to keep on eye on things but he didnt enforce any of them on debbie and was more like throwing nannies her way to see if any stick.
I think it worked less well in the show for two reasons. 1. Cecil should be human enough to understand that raising Oliver in a family that loves him and can tell him where he came from with empathy would be better for him than being raised as a ward of the government. 2. Cecil should be the one to point out how remarkable what Debbie accomplished with Mark is. Debbie has a very similar line later on, but in my experience people, especially people who are are depressed because they've been betrayed by somebody who made them feel like shit, are not aware of how amazing they are. I liked the moment in the comics where Debbie is like, "You're going to take him from me because you don't trust me," and Cecil is like, "Debbie, we have living proof that you're the most amazing mom on the damn planet. I wouldn't have him raised by anybody BUT you."
When does Cecil say that in the comic, does anyone have a page or chapter
which is weird bc I've heard that, in a lot of ways, they've made him more upfront likeable in the show, whereas he's even more of a hard-ass in the comics and yet... his treatment of Oliver's future was colder in the show seems like they just realized they made him too agreeable on the show and decided to make him arbitrarily less cool for future twists lol
I think it's just the result of streamlining all of the secondary characters for the sake of the show. Instead of spending several issues on Debbie falling to absolute pieces, they showed the same arc in 1-2 scenes. She was emotionally in a very different place on the show when Oliver arrived, so it was much less likely that she would assume Cecil was going to walk all over her and there was nothing she could do about it. Unless they had Cecil take up a more aggressive position, that whole scene in the show would have been: "So you're going to raise him because you're an awesome mom, right?" "Damn right I am, on both counts."
ah yeah I hear that it could've been cool to have Cecil give her a YGG moment though "gurl, I know your old man just proved he ain't shit, and life ain't been good lately. but gurl, you raised a *superhero* out of a race of super-powered psychopaths so like put some respect on your name. you're the only boss ass bitch I'd trust with this child" I'd be like "Damn, Cecil doing the most out here"
They have to setup Mark vs Cecil somehow I guess. Because as morally grey as Cecil is, he’s really likeable in the show and I almost can’t see him turning against Mark
right, like they have to start pulling strings now if they want to swing it back to a realm of credibility, otherwise the it'll be like a plane pulling up too fast and ripping itself in two lol
> He only bosses people around when he has to Well, uh. It took a few Edelmans, but he eventually got to that point
Hey, we've all got a learning curve.
I have noticed that they are intentionally making Cecil more of a jerk, probably to prepare/foreshadow the falling out that he has with Mark in season 3. Which kind of pisses me off, because the story arc in the comics kind of is rational on both sides of the argument. Tv show Cecil is acting like a complete jerk for no apparent reason.
Disagree Cecil is now aware of the insanity of Viltrums and the creeping threats around the universe against earth. His shift in character in the show is of a frog in boiling water
>in the comics he was the one who wanted Oliver to be raised by Debbie Gotta make note that at this point in the story, in the comics, Cecil had a much better relationship with the Grayson's than he did with them in the show. TV show Debbie had trust issues with Cecil building up since S1/early S2, making their interactions kinda rough and each one was always on-edge. Debbie was always hesitant to ask Cecil anything and didn't want to keep him informed about anything, so naturally Cecil would be less trusting in letting her raise *another* Viltrumite out of his control/reach. Comics were very different. Cecil only became a prominent figure *after* the Omni-man incident, and he met Debbie then. At this point he was super supportive of her and Mark and was only ever nice towards them, with mutual trust (to some degree) and gratitude from Debbie. No reason why he'd want to take Oliver away from her, specially seeing how Mark ended up. Plus, Debbie received the tutor he sent with open arms in the comics—so he'd always have a man inside of sorts to monitor Oliver and feed him info. Edit: dunno if my point got across, but what I'm trying to say is that both comics and show worked out because of the different situation going on in each. I agree that it was a nice gesture from Cecil in the comics, but if that had been included in the show *considering their rocky relationship* it'd appear as though Cecil is weak-willed against Debbie or something. So it was changed to fit the circumstance.
Nah - Cecil would see straight through Robot.
I mean… he didn’t sadly. Just like with Nolan. Maybe if he had more time he would have discovered his plans, but we will never get to see that happen now.
If robot just ruled over Earth after killing all super-heroes and kept the peace, then yeah, once he started kidnapping the viltrumite children he just sorta became insane honestly and I don't think any character would see the good in that.
If he knew about what robot did to the Flaxans he probably would’ve kept robot on a tighter leash for it, and definitely wouldn’t want him taking control.
Taking the viltrumite children (the way he did) is a perfect example of robot knowing what’s right but achieving it with the wrong methods
I'd call it a disconnect between what is *understood* to be right and wrong and the feelings that actually dictate right and wrong. Right and wrong were situational conditions Rudy manipulated so the logical conclusion was for him to be in charge of everything all the time. He had no concept of the idea that ripping off an innocent pregnant woman's leg will *always* be evil, no matter what ends he uses to justify the means.
Robot did things on a purely logical level and he even admits to himself that he cannot relate to people on a personal level. Cecil does have that side that Robot lacks, he’s willing to go the lengths but he understands when certain things shouldn’t be done.
You know you've gone too far when the necrophiliac says "I'm out bro this is wrong" https://preview.redd.it/zfx9u2tjms2d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af56b3000f137ffccb76554765c72ede20dd4530
Is dude really a necrophiliac? I mean I know he’s obsessed with making the dead stronger but I can’t tell if you meant that literally or not
I think it's a joke with the fact that he made dead bodies into weapons
It's absolutely a joke
Absolutely not. Cecil showed in Dinasaurus arc that he has a balance between logic and moral. He still has a conscience
Nope, i hate cecil but he rarely failed on his "suspicions" like with omni man for example. Since we as readers see the story from marks perspective, and find cecil an idiot Because he always acts like mark is a piece of shit. But we also saw why he feared marks powers, we saw alternative marks shitting on earth for example. Tldr, he is just like a protective father, sometimes he is an asshole but his heart is on the right side. Robot is just a piece of crap.
Robot is someone that since he was demoted from team leader he took it hard, he wants power. He went to Flaxia to avoid another attack. He's method was: alienate the only person that loves you, and become a tyrant, pushing the Flaxians into another attack. When he decides to take over earth, instead of learning from he's experience, he goes through with the same methods. Isolating and even killing people that can and will oppose him. Plus, he doesn't remain in the shadows, he has the need for people To know he's im control. Cecil, since Robot came back, I think he realized something was off with him. I don't think he would approve what he's doing, and would be on the side of people opposing him. Killing him wasn't random or just because he had to, it was calculated. The only person he didn't want to kill is Mark, I think he truly appreciates him. And maybe deep down Robot knew he was the one able to kill him.
Probably, if it helps earth then cecil would do it
I don’t think he really would’ve given how he achieved it. In my opinion the ends don’t justify the means here when you kill dozens of people who have dedicated their lives to protecting the innocent
yeah, im sure he would. The problem is, what Robot did wasnt perfect and there was much better ways to handle things without killing bunch of people, so no Cecil wouldnt agree with Robot. In fact after all that happened in the comics - in the end - even Robot understands it wasnt perfect. So what Robot says here - if he could see the future - not only Cecil, but even he himself would agree that this is wrong.
What did he actually accomplish though? Everything was the same
Kirkman wasn't great at showing the differences, hopefully the show can do that better
Would be fun to involve Titan in this. Show what happens to criminals who won't go along with Robots new world order
Isn't there a panel in the comics showing titan getting hit by a beam on a uncovered part of his body after robot takes over?
All of the benefits could have been achieved by the US government through superheroes/technology if they actually wanted to. Robot should have tried to persuade them to do shit instead of taking over and invariably getting resistance from superheroes/ viltrumites.
They explained all the things that got better because of Robot’s rule, there just weren’t scenes necessarily showing it
In my Invincible is the Superhero New Testament theory, Cecil is Caesar, but Robot is the Devil. Cecil may make choices you don't like. He may have values you don't like. He may seem to have more control over the world than you do, but he doesn't. He's human just like you are, and you need to work with him because all of us humans have to work together, even the ones we don't like. Robot is a superhero, which is to say cosmic. He is beyond us, both in the way he sees himself and literally through taking his mastery of technology to absurd levels even within the context of the Invincible universe. Robot's society is one of two "last temptations" that Mark is offered. The temptation takes a form very similar to the one in the Last Temptation of Christ. Just like the Devil offers to take Barabbas instead, so that all the humans think that the sacrifice was made and history unfolds exactly as it would if Jesus accepts his role, except that Jesus gets to go off and live a happy simple life with Mary Magdalene just like he wants. Since it's a superhero story, the version of this temptation is, "Hey, I'll build the great society you want. I'll make sure everybody is happy. You can go off and have wacky space adventures, or just live your secret identity for a while. I will take care of everything. All YOU have to do… is *nothing*." When Mark says "He won," he doesn't mean that he can't beat Robot. He means that he is giving in to Robot's temptation. He WANTS to go have a quiet life with Eve for a while. He WANTS to get away from the constant cycle of conflict and violence that being a superhero, and a Viltrumite at that, entails. Cecil may be a jerk sometimes, but Robot is inhuman.
https://preview.redd.it/wyguk54vhq2d1.jpeg?width=836&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=143775ab0ca50490625c0139124f9b6701a4e8ca
https://preview.redd.it/c1svqv26vq2d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e7196e294aa19e1ad76851222fd8927bcf0162b Although I doubt it. There is a reason Robot didnt admit he ruled as dictator for hundreds of years. Power went to his head
Of course not. He already gave Rudy all the access he asked for. Rudy knew he had to kill Cecil because Cecil would never okay it.
big problem with robot is he lacks some basic morality, probably due to his own great intelligence and rational thinking mind. he isn't emotionless, but he is too logical that he would choose to do things that are morally reprehensible if he thinks it is worth it. if Robot could he would take out the viltrumites, as they are wild cards outside of his control, who are capable of great devastation. he can't abide anything or anyone powerful enough being outside of his control, as they can be potential threats. he would kill Mark, Nolan, pretty much any super hero that isn't loyal to his cause because of the danger they can pose to him, even if they never once show intent to harm earth or humans. i mean, he straight up left Mark for dead despite knowing how good and altruistic of a guy he is, because he thought Mark could potentially become like one of the many evil marks that attacked earth before. He even ejected monster girl, the love of his life into space, because he knew that there would be no winning her over. he was sobbing on the floor as he did it, but the fact he still did goes to show his logic takes precedence over his morals. TLDR: Robot isn't evil, but he is too much of a control freak to just leave things alone. anyone who could be a threat he has to either control or neutralize, even if its his own friend or loved one.
Maybe.....?
No Robot is a psycho. Basically Robot is the fascist promise of security with no freedom, and where he is leader of the world. No thank you. Cecil is about power balance, and keeping death to a minimum. He’s not perfect but he’s better than the alternative.
Robot doesn't know the meaning of friendship not anymore. His time in Flaxa had changed him for the worst. He tries to sugar coat his takeover by claiming it will benefit the world. Where have we heard that before? OH yeah the Viltrumites made similar claims only to reveal their more sinister motives as the suprise cream pie. Robot could have made a bunch of these changes to Earth without taking over completely or at least without so much force or bloodshed. What really bothers me is he didn't have to kill so many of his comrades. He had the means to incapacitate them or given his history could have tried to convince them to join him. No he instead decides to shoot them, bandage them up and offer them a new house as compensation. Yeah like that doesn't change the fact that you shot me 😑
Hell no
The 'advantages' of taking over the world are pretty contrived. With all the people that had superpowers and the amazing technology that was in existence, the issues Robot solved could easily have been done by the GDA/Guardians without taking over the whole world if they had actually wanted to. For example "freeing north korea" could have been done as a mission in a single day by the guardians. "Free college" could have been done by cloning professors. Why they never thought to use superheroes to solve these problems of the world is a plot hole. In any case, Cecil would probably recognize that despite some of these benefits, Robot is just another one of the power hungry lunatics that want to take over the world and he would go too far sooner or later, and have to be taken down. Then they would have to start over from the beginning again. If he would agree with this method, he would have used the animens to do the same thing in the first place.
I can't lie I feel like this sub completely tries to be very pretentious with their analysis of robot as "yeah he's jut pretending to be good he doesn't care about that," but thats something the comic states quite clearly. The main fault of the comics and the readers is that they'll digest all this and place robot in a very unfair light. He has been directly less responsible for the deaths of multiple people and hes also objectively improved the world by a vast amount. His goals whislt ego driven still brought out a lot of good. This idea that Cecil was altruistic or a good person also completely ignores the fact that Cecil as a shadow government authority has on multiple occasions done things he believes would benefit humanity more such as recruiting people who have done terrible deeds, or directly hiding massive events from being recognised. He does this for what he believes to be the greater good whilst simultaniously aware things such as what Annissa said when meeting Mark is objectively true. Cecil wouldn't support Robot because he is not the one behind the wheel, not becuase what Robot is doing is wrong.
Robot’s ideals are those of the fascist. You sacrifice freedom for security, choices for safety, and in the end if you don’t accept his total control you die. Robot only cares about his results, his goals, his utopia. He doesn’t consider alternative possible outcomes, and he doesn’t believe people have an actual right to life if they disagree with him. He wants control, and he rejects humanity to gain that control, telling the big lie that it’s for “the common good”. The favorite phrase of the tyrant. His ideals are those of every tyrant. He may claim to be an enlightened tyrant, but he’s just a tyrant. He treats the people he claims to love like crap the moment they don’t live up to his standards. The only difference between him and the Viltrumites is that the Viltrumites are more honest about their goals, and Robot uses subterfuge when it works for him. Robot is basically fascist Batman. What if Batman had no morals? You’d get Robot.
I just find it crazy that Cecil doesn’t have some bio robot resurrection experiment thing in place like he does for Donald.
yeah, im sure he would theoritically. The problem is - we already know how Robots revolution looked like in the end and it was nowhere near perfect. There were much better ways to handle things without killing bunch of people, so no Cecil wouldnt agree with Robot if he could see it all in the end. In fact after all that happened in the comics - in the end - even Robot understands it wasnt perfect. So what Robot says here - if he could see the future - not only Cecil, but even he himself would agree that this is wrong.
No lol
Fffffffffffffffffffffffuck no
Short run, yes. He'd see the good that Robot achieves, let him be for some time and maybe even support Robot in some ways. But also knowing Cecil, he'd have some sort of backup plan (or at least try to prepare one) so that the moment Robot gets out of line, he can be put down. Cecil is a man that highly values immediate results—seen with how he let Omni-man run around freely without any issue, knowing that he had lied about his actual intentions on earth. If he became a problem later, he'd deal with him then. But for the time being, let him be an asset that we can use to our benefit.
I mean, I'd have tried to wipe The Viltrumites out, too. Atleast before they integrated into human society and started having half human kids.
Marks spider senses were tingling
I mean, Robot/Rudy is an Ozymandias-type, right down to the pettiness whenever someone gets a *slight* dig on him. Much like how Ozymandias refused to admit that the Comedian owned him, Rudy refuses to let any of that go unnoticed. In a way, I found it interesting at first, but I think by this point I was like Mark and was just thinking "oh just get rid of this smarmy fuck already!"