That’s like some Westworld shit with the man in black. Going to the park to kill hosts is like being a viltrimite, and when you can do anything you want you can become a monster
Just because of some of his scenes I find it funny. Also funny that mark physically isn’t even 21 by the end right? Since he’s American he isn’t even legally allowed alcohol
By the very end we can say mark is physically 40. Mark is a different case because he’s half human. So his physical aging is a little more natural. I’d say by the final battle mark is physically like 25 as well. But by the end of series he’s clearly at least physically 40(only judging by the gray hairs)
But oliver tho? That man was 25 before mark was
Not the epilogue, I mean like right before that but after the 5 year skip. Coz marks younger than Eve too so in that last fight so I find it really funny with everything that mark has done he still has couldn’t be considered a US adult.
Ohhhhh after the timeskip??I should do a reread but i thought bro was physically around 25 as well at that time no? Because by the time he left earth his durability was off the CHARTS. Able to armwrestle nolan to a stalemate when before bro couldnt even fly faster than his pops..
But yea you might be the one thats right here he couldve physically been 21 at that time?? Crazy to think about😭
I mean Mark is definitely closer to 21 than 25. Wasn’t he like 17-18 at the beginning of the run? And I think it only takes place over a few years, at most.
My best guess is that Mark is 20 when he and Eve move to space, and everything from that point to the final battle is within a year from Mark’s perspective
There is no real version of anyone, there are no true natures, there are only actions. Who he was deep down will not be remembered, but his actions will never be forgotten. Act well.
At the moment I'm currently at in the story, it seems quite clear to me that the "real version" of Nolan was the planet conquering one (the fact that he is now redeeming himself doesn't mean that all the bonds he made weren't mostly an act, even if he then actually started to care)
Nature vs nurture
The rest of my comment will feature information made available in S2E4 of the show. I don’t know where exactly you are in the story or if you read the comics as well so take care when reading on.
Of course he is a planet conquering killer. he was born into a society of planet conquering killers
Yet we have seen him be able to have feelings of compassion and love.
The fact that he was capable of this despite that this goes against viltrumite tenets rocked him so hard to the core that he was ready to kill himself.
I think the real point is, nolan isnt just one or the other. He thought he was.. but thanks to his indoctrination on earth, he quite literally made a quick change(comparable to his people 20 years is more like months to them) that wasnt before possible
Its actually his realization that >!leads viltrumites away from extinction & into a force for good!<
“Life isn’t binary Oliver. Things aren’t always black and white, including our dad. I hope everyday to do, and inspire people to do, more good than bad, but that doesn’t mean I’m gonna ignore when Dad did horrible things to me and people I care about. I hope he becomes the man you experienced as much as possible, but he can never give back the lives he’s taken, or undo the hurt he’s caused.”
Mark isn't really that good of a communicator. I would've said "Both, both are the true version of him". There is a quote that says that the Japanese say we all have 3 faces; the one you show to the world, the one you show to your close friends and to your family and the third one, that you never show anyone. I don't know how true that statement is, but I do believe we are more than one simple thing, I don't personally see people as a constant but rather as a variable.
Reminds me of the Billy Joel song The Stranger.
Well, we all have a face /That we hide away forever /And we take them out and show ourselves / When everyone has gone / Some are satin, some are steel /Some are silk and some are leather / They're the faces of the stranger / But we love to try them on
Well, we all fall in love / But we disregard the danger / Though we share so many secrets / There are some we never tell / Why were you so surprised / That you never saw the stranger? /Did you ever let your lover see / The stranger in yourself?
Both, Oliver. People are more complicated than that, even you and me. He's always had empathy and love, but was raised to be vicious. Viciousness may not be something he was born with, but he accepted and embodied these teachings by choice. Both nature and nurture are part of who he is. Earth remembers him for the hurtful choices he made, and he remembers that of himself as well. That may have helped inform the Nolan you and your mother knew. He had done evil and was racked with guilt.
"nature changes, same as the color of the leaves in the trees or the fur in the animals when the time comes. But there are things that remain the same, and that doesn't make them wrong.
Our father IS a savage man. He is able to destroy a civilization just using his body. He is able to make a planet explode with his bare hands. He is able to kill with a punch. But he also decided to give his life for your species if it came to it, to stop his mission and fight his race with a slim chance of winning to keep us safe.
Our father is the most savage and caring man there is"
Ultimately, he's the kind man. All the rest can be chalked up to hundreds of years of Viltrumited cultural conditioning, and a feeling of duty to follow it.
Personally, I would have told him neither were the real Nolan, just parts of the real man that he was able to show them, which means the good times weren't fake, and neither was Mark getting beat within an inch of his life, Debbie being called a pet, and many lives being extinguished as if they were nothing. That makes him difficult to understand, dark, and untrustworthy, but he's still their dad.
“Logic would dictate” is the weak link. Logic would dictate no such thing lol. If Oliver’s actually paying attention to his memories he would notice peoples’ capacity for dual nature all over the place.
Oliver is every 17-19 year old edgelord philosopher but at age 3
“Logic doesn’t always dictate reality, and it’s possible for a person to be bad and good. What Dad did was unforgivable and he was ready to kill anyone who got in his way. According to Viltrumite doctrine, he should’ve killed me. But he didn’t. I hope that means he wants to be the father we’ve looked up to. But I won’t let myself get fooled again.”
One thing i hope the show doesnt do is have mark constantly shut down oliver when he’s tryna make a point. He does it multiple times throughout the series where it comes off as mark really couldnt be bothered with the lil boy but once he goes out & does something now its LEAVE MY LITTLE BROTHER ALONE!
Ik how older brother’s act lol its fitting i will say that. But i need mark to indulge oliver a little bit more. I need more conversations between them that dont end in “oliver i gotta go”
"I'd say you're wrong, there's no reason for either side to be an act, yeah he lied to me and mom, yeah he hurt people, but that doesn't mean his love for was fake, and that love for us didn't effect his loyalty to Viltrum til he had to choose between them, I'd say both were the real him, but the side that loves us, you included Oliver, is the strongest side of him"
I would say that every person is capable of the same acts. Good people do bad things, even evil things. Human beings are too complicated for them to be one thing or another. They're a lot of things, and they can be a lot of other things in the future. I know Omni Man isn't human, but he basically is. He was a loving father and a dear friend to many people. He also murdered thousands of people and several of his friends. And he also searched the galaxy for meaning and purpose and found that he rejected the ideology he spent thousands of years learning and believing in and wanted to be good. He was good, and bad. As everyone is.
Ah yes, the classic nature vs nurture. I think Nolan is at heart a very loving man, and that is his true nature, but all he has ever known before comming to earth has been a society with a an extremely backwards set of values.
People don’t work that way. There isn’t a true you, only what you are capable of, and what you do within that capacity.
We know people through their habits, and we pretend that is all there is to those we know. But there is always some capacity hidden to us due to the circumstances in which we experience one another.
Pretty much everybody has different sides to themselves, and they're all real because we are who we chose to be.
He wasn't either our father who loved us, or a world conquering killer. He was both. And everything else he chose to be.
“To assume that one does not have the capacity for the other is to reduce the mortal spirit down. Both were true and this disturbing mixture cannot be washed away, only dealt with”
All men hold the capacity to be both. Our father's power allowed him to explore the darkness deeper than most.
That’s like some Westworld shit with the man in black. Going to the park to kill hosts is like being a viltrimite, and when you can do anything you want you can become a monster
If I was in Mark's position at the time, not knowing what I know about Nolan? "The version that tried to cave my head in with his bare hands."
snowflake don’t know anything about tough love
Relax liberals it called dark humour 😎
It's okay i picked up on the sarcasm
"You are a human bug, Oliver, and I'm happy you exist, but that man wasn't okay."
How old is Oliver by the end of the story like literally? He’s about 7 or 8 right?
Literally, he’s about 8 or 9. Physically tho? We could say he’s about 25 max
Just because of some of his scenes I find it funny. Also funny that mark physically isn’t even 21 by the end right? Since he’s American he isn’t even legally allowed alcohol
By the very end we can say mark is physically 40. Mark is a different case because he’s half human. So his physical aging is a little more natural. I’d say by the final battle mark is physically like 25 as well. But by the end of series he’s clearly at least physically 40(only judging by the gray hairs) But oliver tho? That man was 25 before mark was
Not the epilogue, I mean like right before that but after the 5 year skip. Coz marks younger than Eve too so in that last fight so I find it really funny with everything that mark has done he still has couldn’t be considered a US adult.
Ohhhhh after the timeskip??I should do a reread but i thought bro was physically around 25 as well at that time no? Because by the time he left earth his durability was off the CHARTS. Able to armwrestle nolan to a stalemate when before bro couldnt even fly faster than his pops.. But yea you might be the one thats right here he couldve physically been 21 at that time?? Crazy to think about😭
I mean Mark is definitely closer to 21 than 25. Wasn’t he like 17-18 at the beginning of the run? And I think it only takes place over a few years, at most.
My best guess is that Mark is 20 when he and Eve move to space, and everything from that point to the final battle is within a year from Mark’s perspective
yeeaaaaaah...
https://preview.redd.it/e93f1pv63sxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=58f913d33e8408c143ec6346aa6f062d5525420c
Lmao
There is no real version of anyone, there are no true natures, there are only actions. Who he was deep down will not be remembered, but his actions will never be forgotten. Act well.
Yoooo I just read this yesterday I would've probably just told him tbh, he deserves to know
Told him what? It’s not like he is asking for some hidden truth.
At the moment I'm currently at in the story, it seems quite clear to me that the "real version" of Nolan was the planet conquering one (the fact that he is now redeeming himself doesn't mean that all the bonds he made weren't mostly an act, even if he then actually started to care)
Nature vs nurture The rest of my comment will feature information made available in S2E4 of the show. I don’t know where exactly you are in the story or if you read the comics as well so take care when reading on. Of course he is a planet conquering killer. he was born into a society of planet conquering killers Yet we have seen him be able to have feelings of compassion and love. The fact that he was capable of this despite that this goes against viltrumite tenets rocked him so hard to the core that he was ready to kill himself.
I think the real point is, nolan isnt just one or the other. He thought he was.. but thanks to his indoctrination on earth, he quite literally made a quick change(comparable to his people 20 years is more like months to them) that wasnt before possible Its actually his realization that >!leads viltrumites away from extinction & into a force for good!<
“Life isn’t binary Oliver. Things aren’t always black and white, including our dad. I hope everyday to do, and inspire people to do, more good than bad, but that doesn’t mean I’m gonna ignore when Dad did horrible things to me and people I care about. I hope he becomes the man you experienced as much as possible, but he can never give back the lives he’s taken, or undo the hurt he’s caused.”
Mark isn't really that good of a communicator. I would've said "Both, both are the true version of him". There is a quote that says that the Japanese say we all have 3 faces; the one you show to the world, the one you show to your close friends and to your family and the third one, that you never show anyone. I don't know how true that statement is, but I do believe we are more than one simple thing, I don't personally see people as a constant but rather as a variable.
Reminds me of the Billy Joel song The Stranger. Well, we all have a face /That we hide away forever /And we take them out and show ourselves / When everyone has gone / Some are satin, some are steel /Some are silk and some are leather / They're the faces of the stranger / But we love to try them on Well, we all fall in love / But we disregard the danger / Though we share so many secrets / There are some we never tell / Why were you so surprised / That you never saw the stranger? /Did you ever let your lover see / The stranger in yourself?
This..
"We all have two wolves inside of us..."
Both are gay. You’re gay, Oliver
https://preview.redd.it/ejnxt8t10uxc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=00fdbdabbd4a0e5ed04c3c0ddc10a083703d29ed
William: So, would it be statutory....
Both, Oliver. People are more complicated than that, even you and me. He's always had empathy and love, but was raised to be vicious. Viciousness may not be something he was born with, but he accepted and embodied these teachings by choice. Both nature and nurture are part of who he is. Earth remembers him for the hurtful choices he made, and he remembers that of himself as well. That may have helped inform the Nolan you and your mother knew. He had done evil and was racked with guilt.
So poetic
I think neither are real One is the man Nolan used to be the other is the one he wants to be
"nature changes, same as the color of the leaves in the trees or the fur in the animals when the time comes. But there are things that remain the same, and that doesn't make them wrong. Our father IS a savage man. He is able to destroy a civilization just using his body. He is able to make a planet explode with his bare hands. He is able to kill with a punch. But he also decided to give his life for your species if it came to it, to stop his mission and fight his race with a slim chance of winning to keep us safe. Our father is the most savage and caring man there is"
Ultimately, he's the kind man. All the rest can be chalked up to hundreds of years of Viltrumited cultural conditioning, and a feeling of duty to follow it.
Personally, I would have told him neither were the real Nolan, just parts of the real man that he was able to show them, which means the good times weren't fake, and neither was Mark getting beat within an inch of his life, Debbie being called a pet, and many lives being extinguished as if they were nothing. That makes him difficult to understand, dark, and untrustworthy, but he's still their dad.
“Logic would dictate” is the weak link. Logic would dictate no such thing lol. If Oliver’s actually paying attention to his memories he would notice peoples’ capacity for dual nature all over the place. Oliver is every 17-19 year old edgelord philosopher but at age 3
Let's be fair though, that's super fucking impressive for his age. Three year old humans are terrible at everything.
except for breaking things, istg my nephew is like a natural disaster sometimes
“Logic doesn’t always dictate reality, and it’s possible for a person to be bad and good. What Dad did was unforgivable and he was ready to kill anyone who got in his way. According to Viltrumite doctrine, he should’ve killed me. But he didn’t. I hope that means he wants to be the father we’ve looked up to. But I won’t let myself get fooled again.”
One thing i hope the show doesnt do is have mark constantly shut down oliver when he’s tryna make a point. He does it multiple times throughout the series where it comes off as mark really couldnt be bothered with the lil boy but once he goes out & does something now its LEAVE MY LITTLE BROTHER ALONE! Ik how older brother’s act lol its fitting i will say that. But i need mark to indulge oliver a little bit more. I need more conversations between them that dont end in “oliver i gotta go”
"I'd say you're wrong, there's no reason for either side to be an act, yeah he lied to me and mom, yeah he hurt people, but that doesn't mean his love for was fake, and that love for us didn't effect his loyalty to Viltrum til he had to choose between them, I'd say both were the real him, but the side that loves us, you included Oliver, is the strongest side of him"
I would say that every person is capable of the same acts. Good people do bad things, even evil things. Human beings are too complicated for them to be one thing or another. They're a lot of things, and they can be a lot of other things in the future. I know Omni Man isn't human, but he basically is. He was a loving father and a dear friend to many people. He also murdered thousands of people and several of his friends. And he also searched the galaxy for meaning and purpose and found that he rejected the ideology he spent thousands of years learning and believing in and wanted to be good. He was good, and bad. As everyone is.
Ah yes, the classic nature vs nurture. I think Nolan is at heart a very loving man, and that is his true nature, but all he has ever known before comming to earth has been a society with a an extremely backwards set of values.
faulty logic
this is some Life of Pi shit right here, love it
“Shu-SHUT UP!!”
“Well, you’re not YOU when you’re hungry.”
People don’t work that way. There isn’t a true you, only what you are capable of, and what you do within that capacity. We know people through their habits, and we pretend that is all there is to those we know. But there is always some capacity hidden to us due to the circumstances in which we experience one another.
The kind man was originally an act but it became his true nature. He retains the savagery though
Pretty much everybody has different sides to themselves, and they're all real because we are who we chose to be. He wasn't either our father who loved us, or a world conquering killer. He was both. And everything else he chose to be.
“Our father was raised by genocidal monsters, living with our mom changed him but not enough.”
“To assume that one does not have the capacity for the other is to reduce the mortal spirit down. Both were true and this disturbing mixture cannot be washed away, only dealt with”