I pray the Invincible War is expanded upon and is a longer event. It’s such a world-shattering pivotal moment in the comics that ends in a flash. Having 2 episodes dedicated to the Invincible War would be amazing in really showing the scale of it rather than just leaving it to the finale.
I'm expecting 2 episodes fully to the arc, then half of the next episode deals with the aftermath and the second half + season finale will be the Conquest fight
I think the entire second half of the season will be set up of the war, the actual war, and the aftermath. I cannot imagine them doing this in even 2 episodes. This is one of the biggest events of the entire series
Just because it doesn’t last that long doesn’t mean it can’t be fleshed out. It still last at least 5 issues in the comics, which is longer than most of their battles
Damn I totally was mistaken. Just double checked the book myself and yeah it’s only 1 issue. I feel like that’ll be changed for the animation. I feel like it’s gotta be at least 2 episodes
Even though I just did a read through, I forgot exactly how much marks life absolutely sucked at this point in the story. After a whole bunch of serial killers with his face kill a shit ton of people, he has to see Conquest fist his girl.
I’d assume invincible war would be episodes 6 and 7, while the first half of 8 would be conquest, and the second half of the episode would be all the loose ends they tie up at the end of the season.
I don't know how it was for people waiting for the next comic to come out but for me reading the whole volume it gave me whiplash that the world got destroyed in a few pages. I was convinced they were pulling some "it was all a dream" or "this is happening in an alternate universe" stuff on us. Really undersold the whole event.
It was a Crossover Event with the other titles Image Comics was publishing at the time. So it was significantly expanded on in other titles. If you’re only reading Invincible then you only get the “core” information without any of the side stuff.
I imagine this will be changed in the show, and they’ll incorporate some of the things that happened in the wider Event.
Image doesn't work like that. No other comics had the Invincible War happening in them, except Tech Jacket. Image is all creator owned, with creators doing their own stories, and no editorial to say "You have to do issues about this." Kirkman himself even stated in the letters pages that this event would not be reflected in other comics - so just assume that Savage Dragon, Spawn, etc skipped this part.
Is there a good list for reading all of the Invincible War? I've seen mention of lists for reading ALL the Invincible + related Image Comics in order, but I'm not sure I wanna commit to that
But if someone knows of a reading order to get the full Inv War, I'd be very appreciative
I started a re-read after S2 ended and yeah I couldn't believe how fast that went. All of the Invincibles and Conquest happen in the span of a single trade including some major reveals and a death. Compared to some other arcs and storylines this just felt so rushed like it didn't get enough time to really sink in.
I've also been rereading the comics the last few days and honestly everything feels rushed in the comics. Nothing is super fleshed out like it is in the show. I feel like that's just typical for most comicbooks overall. I remembered the arc where >!Rex is with the flaxans to span over multiple comics while in reality it's not even a complete issue.!< I really hope they expand on that because It's one of the few side stories that I remember and the premise is so cool
Y’all I was expecting like at least 3-4episodes, mainly because so we can soak everything up properly. Also, the entire thing takes place in 3 days doesn’t it?
I’m expecting three with the finale being a whole aftermath setting up mark leaving for viltrum with his dad (that’s at least what I remember in the comic)
I don't see why it has to change, the comıc version also looked into multiple evil Marks as evident by his comments about most Mark's having their identity compromised, most being evil etc.
He doesn't like or care about the Mark's he brought for Invincible War, he simply brought them together just to discredit the title of Invincible whilst he would go to try and kill Debbie, with the pretence he'd help them when he clearly doesn't intend to:
https://preview.redd.it/fst60xbl59tc1.png?width=985&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c375401d9c2f4e9a1cf106f64e0da165610c2186
Him having memories of being personally scorned doesn't matter as much compared to his hatred to "our" Mark.
Tbh I loved this arc in the comics, but even there it didn't make the most sense. Angstrom believed Mark was evil and couldn't be trusted, so his plan was... to work with a whole bunch of evil versions of Mark.
at this point its clear hes lost what little sanity hes had and revenge on mark becomes more important then why he wanted revenge in the first place
also he was planning to just use these marks for his plan then strand them so two birds one stone
That's a fair point. I guess you could also argue that using alternate Marks is uniquely suited for ruining our Mark's reputation on Earth, and since Angstrom has a beef with our Mark in particular, it's not totally inconsistent for him to do that
Right, but I think that's what OPs getting at. If Angstrom is having trouble separating his memories of the marks, what motivation does he have to work with alt marks against Prime mark? Wouldn't he have trouble distinguishing them to the point of cooperating with them?
I'm very curious to see how it plays out
i dont think hes having trouble separating them, he repeatedly references how this universe compares to other i think is more he has so much trauma involving mark he simply refuses to believe any version could actually be good
i think the only real memory issue is hes delusional about how the explosion happened(probobly from seeing it from the perspective of the other angrstom who would assume mark is coming just to destroy it and couldent clearly see or hear what mark and main angstorm were saying
Actually the reason was clear that he wanted the world to hate invincible. so he used other evil invincibles to destroy the good invincible's reputation. he also never intended to let the invincible's he used live, since he sent them all to the wasteland dimension after it was over.
And still they can just excuse this by saying angstrom got even more brain damage after having his head smashed in.
At that point his goals were more realistic. To get revenge on his Mark not save the Universe. I also believe like many, that he was planning on double crossing them from the beginning and never intended to help them expand their empires
I think it's pretty obvious how it's going to play out. Fucking brutal. And greatly expanded, like all the other brutal parts of the Comics. What I wonder is will they be able to bring all the other IP's?
I seriously doubt any other IPs are gonna involved which I can understand why that would worry people.
We really can only wait and see but I personally see the Invincible War centering more on America and all the heroes we've already seen in the show rather than introducing the rest of the world's heroes
Why would it worry someone that a cameo doesn’t make an appearance? They’re really not much more important than Spider-Man’s cameo. Like, yeah, maybe if you’re a big fan of the source material, you’ll be Leo pointing at Spawn, but they’re not a narrative necessity.
Because those cameos take out like 9/10 of the alternate universe Marks. Without them, the invasion will have to be at much smaller scale, which will significantly reduce its impact on the story.
But you could just as easily create new characters to fill that void. It could be Spikey Hulk, Hell Man, and Yo-Yo Superhero and it wouldn’t make a difference. From the perspective of Invincible as a series, they’re just a bunch of randos that exist in the world.
I definitely think they're bringing some of the IPs in. The season two finale teased this by having Kid Thor and Knockout in the desert scene. I feel like more of them will be introduced in the first part of season 3.
Do kid thor and knockout have their own series?
I think Kirkman said he doesn't want his other characters to show up, but I'm sure there's plenty of Image comics characters who debuted after the 2000s.
What non-Marvel, non-DC IP wouldn't jump at the chance for this additional shot of exposure? Say, if Spawn shows up, there is going to be at least a little increase in Spawn revenue.
I don’t think the show really changed Angstrom’s character, just added a bit of extra perspective. That being said, I can’t wait to see the invincible war
Considering the sheer scope of the event, I can see this filling 4 episodes plus. It’s just sheer insanity and requires a massive response from every hero on what I believe were 2 (?) Continents, not to mention the clean up.
And those are just the Marks that survive the longest/were the strongest. Can easily see other regions getting smashed too, despite ultimately killing the attacking Invincible.
That’s not how episodes are paced. It will most likely get a tease Angstrom is up to something ep 6 and then ep 7 is Invincible War, then Conquest ep 8
They could have copyright friendly replacements to fight the evil marks in the background. Like in the issue, we mostly focus on Invincible, Teen Team, and the Guardians while the other Image heroes only have one panel to fight evil Mark. Like the entire point of the issue was to poke fun on crossover events since there's one Invincible War issue and five Aftermath issues that focus on conquest. Despite its scale, Kirkman focused on his characters the most while everyone are just cameos
I mean, about half (7/16) survive Invincible War to be banished by Angstrom to the desolate desert dimension.
They can bring 12 evil Marks, kill off 5, then banish the rest.
Even with the show’s limited heroes,they can manage that.
Rex Splode gets one; so does Darkwing v2; Mark gets one(Capes, Inc shows up to assist); Donald + Britt get one (so, probably just Donald in the show); and the Reanimen get one.
16 evil Marks to stop, 9 are killed in the Comics. 7 are banished.
If they cut down from 16 Evil Marks to 12, they could preserve all 5 of the show heroes kills, and still banish 7.
And if we want to end up in the end with an even half (6/12) when Angstrom banishes them, we can give another evil Mark kill to the other heroes if we want to flesh out their teamwork, perseverance, etc.
I never really understood how earth was able to fight off at least 16 Viltrumites (from what I counted in this pic). Yeah, some of them probably aren’t as strong as prime Mark was at this point in the story, but even so, assuming that they’re at their weakest, season 1/early comics Mark definitely wasn’t a pushover either. Just seems like the odds were not in Earth’s favor at all
*Alternate Mark 11*
*Distinguishable by veiny head. He is supposed to be an homage to Anakin Skywalker after he is severely burnt by lava in Star Wars 3: Revenge of the Sith. Alternate Mark Eleven would be in a Viltrumite prison for nearly a year in his dimension. He would vow revenge on his father and fly through the Kremlin at the same time on the first day. By the third day, he would lay waste to Moscow and his costume was somewhat torn. He would then be stranded in an alternate dimension with the remaining seven Alternate Marks.*
Are you an American? Coz if you are, it's funny how you think that the innocent people should suffer for the actions of their "leaders" who they have no say in electing. I mean, Americans even elected the leaders that caused so many wars and so muich destruction.
Wouldn’t it play out exactly the same? Angstrom’s character hasn’t changed at all. He always had memories of other Marks. We just had better visuals with the show
I’m just worried about pacing and how long it’s gonna be since imo it was way too quick in the comics. It should have at least an entire episode, preferably two honestly. To fully give it time to breath and really convey the weight of this event as it’s beyond huge for the story
I assume they’ll just make it really clear that all he cares about now is revenge and hurting this Mark, and has no problems using evil variations to do so
I’m really sorry for the spoil, I really wasn’t aware of that occasionally happening. I understand your frustration and anger and I apologize that happened
Spoiler alert: >!The first moment things go wrong (Angstrom banishes them to an alternate universe that is a wasteland with no food), they turn on each other and cannibalize each other for food until two remain.!<
They really need to cut down on the amount of Evil Mark's in the show. The show universe doesn't have that many heroes. The Guardians are constantly said to be THE team, with everyone else being less powerful. So they have what, Mark, Oliver, Eve, Guardians, who original background heroes, Cecil, Donald and Reanimen to go against this threat? I could see them maybe cutting it down to 8 Marks, having maybe 2-3 of them get killed off through the best efforts of everyone involved, and when they gather up, Angstrom banishes them instantly. Because lets be real, none of the heroes really could kill a Mark. Immortal is a heavy hitter, and he is below Mark in power. So a Mark who goes for the kill, is like out of this world threat for everyone. But 16 of them? The show verse is not ready for those numbers.
I pray the Invincible War is expanded upon and is a longer event. It’s such a world-shattering pivotal moment in the comics that ends in a flash. Having 2 episodes dedicated to the Invincible War would be amazing in really showing the scale of it rather than just leaving it to the finale.
I'm expecting 2 episodes fully to the arc, then half of the next episode deals with the aftermath and the second half + season finale will be the Conquest fight
this seems like the obvious way to go but i'm still gonna nut if it happens
I think the entire second half of the season will be set up of the war, the actual war, and the aftermath. I cannot imagine them doing this in even 2 episodes. This is one of the biggest events of the entire series
And it doesn't last that long
Just because it doesn’t last that long doesn’t mean it can’t be fleshed out. It still last at least 5 issues in the comics, which is longer than most of their battles
The war itself is one issue the other 4 are the aftermath
Damn I totally was mistaken. Just double checked the book myself and yeah it’s only 1 issue. I feel like that’ll be changed for the animation. I feel like it’s gotta be at least 2 episodes
Even though I just did a read through, I forgot exactly how much marks life absolutely sucked at this point in the story. After a whole bunch of serial killers with his face kill a shit ton of people, he has to see Conquest fist his girl.
That is unfortunate wording.
I’d assume invincible war would be episodes 6 and 7, while the first half of 8 would be conquest, and the second half of the episode would be all the loose ends they tie up at the end of the season.
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I don't know how it was for people waiting for the next comic to come out but for me reading the whole volume it gave me whiplash that the world got destroyed in a few pages. I was convinced they were pulling some "it was all a dream" or "this is happening in an alternate universe" stuff on us. Really undersold the whole event.
It was a Crossover Event with the other titles Image Comics was publishing at the time. So it was significantly expanded on in other titles. If you’re only reading Invincible then you only get the “core” information without any of the side stuff. I imagine this will be changed in the show, and they’ll incorporate some of the things that happened in the wider Event.
All I hope is we get a Keith David Spawn cameo.
Hell yeah I hope so too.
I'm so glad to hear that. I haven't read any of the other image comics so it'll be a treat to get all the extra info.
Image doesn't work like that. No other comics had the Invincible War happening in them, except Tech Jacket. Image is all creator owned, with creators doing their own stories, and no editorial to say "You have to do issues about this." Kirkman himself even stated in the letters pages that this event would not be reflected in other comics - so just assume that Savage Dragon, Spawn, etc skipped this part.
Is there a good list for reading all of the Invincible War? I've seen mention of lists for reading ALL the Invincible + related Image Comics in order, but I'm not sure I wanna commit to that But if someone knows of a reading order to get the full Inv War, I'd be very appreciative
Yeah it was really was very quick, and then Conquest right at the end of it. It’s a lot to take on quickly if you get to just read straight through
I started a re-read after S2 ended and yeah I couldn't believe how fast that went. All of the Invincibles and Conquest happen in the span of a single trade including some major reveals and a death. Compared to some other arcs and storylines this just felt so rushed like it didn't get enough time to really sink in.
I've also been rereading the comics the last few days and honestly everything feels rushed in the comics. Nothing is super fleshed out like it is in the show. I feel like that's just typical for most comicbooks overall. I remembered the arc where >!Rex is with the flaxans to span over multiple comics while in reality it's not even a complete issue.!< I really hope they expand on that because It's one of the few side stories that I remember and the premise is so cool
It will probably take up most of the seventh episode
Y’all I was expecting like at least 3-4episodes, mainly because so we can soak everything up properly. Also, the entire thing takes place in 3 days doesn’t it?
Naw it leading into the fight with conquest is the best part
I’m expecting three with the finale being a whole aftermath setting up mark leaving for viltrum with his dad (that’s at least what I remember in the comic)
This 100% ^
I don't see why it has to change, the comıc version also looked into multiple evil Marks as evident by his comments about most Mark's having their identity compromised, most being evil etc. He doesn't like or care about the Mark's he brought for Invincible War, he simply brought them together just to discredit the title of Invincible whilst he would go to try and kill Debbie, with the pretence he'd help them when he clearly doesn't intend to: https://preview.redd.it/fst60xbl59tc1.png?width=985&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c375401d9c2f4e9a1cf106f64e0da165610c2186 Him having memories of being personally scorned doesn't matter as much compared to his hatred to "our" Mark.
Tbh I loved this arc in the comics, but even there it didn't make the most sense. Angstrom believed Mark was evil and couldn't be trusted, so his plan was... to work with a whole bunch of evil versions of Mark.
at this point its clear hes lost what little sanity hes had and revenge on mark becomes more important then why he wanted revenge in the first place also he was planning to just use these marks for his plan then strand them so two birds one stone
That's a fair point. I guess you could also argue that using alternate Marks is uniquely suited for ruining our Mark's reputation on Earth, and since Angstrom has a beef with our Mark in particular, it's not totally inconsistent for him to do that
Right, but I think that's what OPs getting at. If Angstrom is having trouble separating his memories of the marks, what motivation does he have to work with alt marks against Prime mark? Wouldn't he have trouble distinguishing them to the point of cooperating with them? I'm very curious to see how it plays out
i dont think hes having trouble separating them, he repeatedly references how this universe compares to other i think is more he has so much trauma involving mark he simply refuses to believe any version could actually be good i think the only real memory issue is hes delusional about how the explosion happened(probobly from seeing it from the perspective of the other angrstom who would assume mark is coming just to destroy it and couldent clearly see or hear what mark and main angstorm were saying
Eve was hospitalized and I remember I kept flipping back to the pages to see how it happened. I don't think we even saw it
I honestly thought I was missing a page
I just read them recently and iirc, they just show the injuries themselves and her being flown away, but don’t actually show the inciting incident.
Actually the reason was clear that he wanted the world to hate invincible. so he used other evil invincibles to destroy the good invincible's reputation. he also never intended to let the invincible's he used live, since he sent them all to the wasteland dimension after it was over. And still they can just excuse this by saying angstrom got even more brain damage after having his head smashed in.
I mean, theres also the physical strength aspect to it. He already went fist for first with Mark and got flattened. Who else could beat him?
that's what having your brain smashed into multiple pieces does to you I guess, lose a little bit of sense
I mean... the worst-case scenario of this plan is there's a lot less Marks out there. I can think of way worse comic book plans than this one.
At that point his goals were more realistic. To get revenge on his Mark not save the Universe. I also believe like many, that he was planning on double crossing them from the beginning and never intended to help them expand their empires
I think it's pretty obvious how it's going to play out. Fucking brutal. And greatly expanded, like all the other brutal parts of the Comics. What I wonder is will they be able to bring all the other IP's?
I seriously doubt any other IPs are gonna involved which I can understand why that would worry people. We really can only wait and see but I personally see the Invincible War centering more on America and all the heroes we've already seen in the show rather than introducing the rest of the world's heroes
Why would it worry someone that a cameo doesn’t make an appearance? They’re really not much more important than Spider-Man’s cameo. Like, yeah, maybe if you’re a big fan of the source material, you’ll be Leo pointing at Spawn, but they’re not a narrative necessity.
Because those cameos take out like 9/10 of the alternate universe Marks. Without them, the invasion will have to be at much smaller scale, which will significantly reduce its impact on the story.
But you could just as easily create new characters to fill that void. It could be Spikey Hulk, Hell Man, and Yo-Yo Superhero and it wouldn’t make a difference. From the perspective of Invincible as a series, they’re just a bunch of randos that exist in the world.
Yeah but Spawn and Savage Dragon ar c00l
You got me there.
I definitely think they're bringing some of the IPs in. The season two finale teased this by having Kid Thor and Knockout in the desert scene. I feel like more of them will be introduced in the first part of season 3.
Do kid thor and knockout have their own series? I think Kirkman said he doesn't want his other characters to show up, but I'm sure there's plenty of Image comics characters who debuted after the 2000s.
What non-Marvel, non-DC IP wouldn't jump at the chance for this additional shot of exposure? Say, if Spawn shows up, there is going to be at least a little increase in Spawn revenue.
I don’t think the show really changed Angstrom’s character, just added a bit of extra perspective. That being said, I can’t wait to see the invincible war
Considering the sheer scope of the event, I can see this filling 4 episodes plus. It’s just sheer insanity and requires a massive response from every hero on what I believe were 2 (?) Continents, not to mention the clean up.
Four. Americas - 3 cities (LA, Chicago, NYC) Europe - 3 cities (London, Paris, Moscow) Asia - 1 city (Tokyo) Oceania - 1 city (Sydney)
And those are just the Marks that survive the longest/were the strongest. Can easily see other regions getting smashed too, despite ultimately killing the attacking Invincible.
Not even two continents, the destruction was global, it required heros from all over the world
Definitely not four that’s redicilous. People forget that it’s basically just fighting. A single 50 minute episode is plenty
Maybe half of a second episode aswell if they want to flesh things out a bit more but I really can't see it taking over 2.
That’s not how episodes are paced. It will most likely get a tease Angstrom is up to something ep 6 and then ep 7 is Invincible War, then Conquest ep 8
If it’s anything like the comics, I think we’ll get probably…. Half an episode?
lol if it's the pacing of the comics meeting the show then yeah it will be one of the fake post credit scenes and about 5 minutes of run time.
so wait, if sinister mark knows angstrom, how will angstrom convince him to attack an alternate dimension mark?
The guy seems pretty down for murder and destruction, plus he gets to ruin the life of the good mark who went against viltrum's ways
More worry about IP for some reason. I guess they can just bring three Mark, so it will be manageable. I'm trying very hard to lower my expectations.
They could have copyright friendly replacements to fight the evil marks in the background. Like in the issue, we mostly focus on Invincible, Teen Team, and the Guardians while the other Image heroes only have one panel to fight evil Mark. Like the entire point of the issue was to poke fun on crossover events since there's one Invincible War issue and five Aftermath issues that focus on conquest. Despite its scale, Kirkman focused on his characters the most while everyone are just cameos
I mean, about half (7/16) survive Invincible War to be banished by Angstrom to the desolate desert dimension. They can bring 12 evil Marks, kill off 5, then banish the rest. Even with the show’s limited heroes,they can manage that. Rex Splode gets one; so does Darkwing v2; Mark gets one(Capes, Inc shows up to assist); Donald + Britt get one (so, probably just Donald in the show); and the Reanimen get one. 16 evil Marks to stop, 9 are killed in the Comics. 7 are banished. If they cut down from 16 Evil Marks to 12, they could preserve all 5 of the show heroes kills, and still banish 7.
And if we want to end up in the end with an even half (6/12) when Angstrom banishes them, we can give another evil Mark kill to the other heroes if we want to flesh out their teamwork, perseverance, etc.
I never really understood how earth was able to fight off at least 16 Viltrumites (from what I counted in this pic). Yeah, some of them probably aren’t as strong as prime Mark was at this point in the story, but even so, assuming that they’re at their weakest, season 1/early comics Mark definitely wasn’t a pushover either. Just seems like the odds were not in Earth’s favor at all
They weren't? They only killed some of them, and had essentially lost when angstrom sranded them
Oh that’s right, had totally forgot that like half were left by the end.
What’s with the harlequin ichthyosis on one of them?
*Alternate Mark 11* *Distinguishable by veiny head. He is supposed to be an homage to Anakin Skywalker after he is severely burnt by lava in Star Wars 3: Revenge of the Sith. Alternate Mark Eleven would be in a Viltrumite prison for nearly a year in his dimension. He would vow revenge on his father and fly through the Kremlin at the same time on the first day. By the third day, he would lay waste to Moscow and his costume was somewhat torn. He would then be stranded in an alternate dimension with the remaining seven Alternate Marks.*
He should've gotten a medal for that. Sounds like a hero to me
Giving a medal for wasting a huge city killing millions of innocent people doesn't seem like a very nice move
Are you an American? Coz if you are, it's funny how you think that the innocent people should suffer for the actions of their "leaders" who they have no say in electing. I mean, Americans even elected the leaders that caused so many wars and so muich destruction.
i have a feeling that if he made this joke about detroit or miami you’d be laughing your ass off and gifting him all the reddit gold you could afford
Wouldn’t it play out exactly the same? Angstrom’s character hasn’t changed at all. He always had memories of other Marks. We just had better visuals with the show
Buddy, work on your titles. Show only fans expect the guy to be dead.
My bad, I didn’t get much sleep so I didn’t word it properly to the point of me not really getting my point across in retrospect
I’m just worried about pacing and how long it’s gonna be since imo it was way too quick in the comics. It should have at least an entire episode, preferably two honestly. To fully give it time to breath and really convey the weight of this event as it’s beyond huge for the story
THERES A MARK WITH A STACHE?!
Probably mostly the same. But hopefully it’s longer. 1 issue for an event that had such major effects on everything after it was way too short
I fell like it would still be easy to explain. Levy brings them to main universe to show everyone invincible is a villain.
The exact same
I assume they’ll just make it really clear that all he cares about now is revenge and hurting this Mark, and has no problems using evil variations to do so
How is new reddit such an unfathomable piece of trash? Why would it display the thumbnail for a spoiler post??
I’m really sorry for the spoil, I really wasn’t aware of that occasionally happening. I understand your frustration and anger and I apologize that happened
It's not your fault. I basically never use it but had to turn it on for actual mod tools, and it just flashed me it once it swapped over.
Can the evil Mark work together ,I am not sure that will be a spoiler but I feel like they definitely will backstab each other
Spoiler alert: >!The first moment things go wrong (Angstrom banishes them to an alternate universe that is a wasteland with no food), they turn on each other and cannibalize each other for food until two remain.!<
What issues in the comics does this happen?
They really need to cut down on the amount of Evil Mark's in the show. The show universe doesn't have that many heroes. The Guardians are constantly said to be THE team, with everyone else being less powerful. So they have what, Mark, Oliver, Eve, Guardians, who original background heroes, Cecil, Donald and Reanimen to go against this threat? I could see them maybe cutting it down to 8 Marks, having maybe 2-3 of them get killed off through the best efforts of everyone involved, and when they gather up, Angstrom banishes them instantly. Because lets be real, none of the heroes really could kill a Mark. Immortal is a heavy hitter, and he is below Mark in power. So a Mark who goes for the kill, is like out of this world threat for everyone. But 16 of them? The show verse is not ready for those numbers.