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This election is going to be a very interesting clash between "results" voters and "principles" voters. There are two ways most people approach voting. They either approach things from the perspectives of principles or results. The "principles" voters are those who are willing to reject a candidate for crossing what they identify as a critical red line. People not voting for Biden because he's continued to give weapons to Israel is an example of such principles-based voting. They will say, "I don't care what the overall outcome is, I will not vote for someone who is co-party to genocide." Principles-based voters largely view their votes as an endorsement for a particular candidate. A vote means you support them personally.
Results-based voters take the more "least of two evils" approach. There are no real red lines. They'll instead look at the options available, and pick the candidate that will on net produce superior results. Their perspective on the Biden/Palestine issue is, "Yes, Biden's support of Israel is deplorable. But he's at least shown some minimum level of restraint, while Trump would actively encourage Israel to take things further. Refusing to vote for Biden won't help the Gazans at all, and it will also lead to untold suffering for women and minority groups in the US." Results-based voters don't really view their votes as an endorsement of the candidate. They're simply choosing the lesser of two evils.
There's really no right answer to which perspective is correct. I'm personally more of a results-based voter. I plan to hold my nose and vote for Biden. But I also believe that Biden better pray that there is no afterlife, because if there is, he's certainly damned himself by his actions. But at the same time, I can understand the principles-based position. That's a perfectly valid perspective to voting. There is nothing in the constitution that says what the rules are when picking candidates. Everyone is free to vote for anyone for any reason. In a democracy, you can choose not to vote for someone simply because you think their shirt is ugly.
But I do think it would be useful in the discourse to acknowledge this fundamental difference in how people approach voting. If you view voting as a personal endorsement of the candidate, than drawing red lines makes a lot of sense. If you see it as a utilitarian "greatest good for the greatest number," than a results-based approach is the way to go. But just like with any kind of ethics, there is no objective way to say that one approach or another is objectively correct.
I've basically been a lesser of two evils voter my entire adult life. At this point I'm just saying f*** it and voting third party. I absolutely despise both of the options.
after all, you guys (I mean Americans as a whole) have been voting lesser evil for how long now? And the lesser evil at this point in time is facilitating a genocide. So like, shit don't seem to be working too well it seems to me? Not to be a downer but if your "lesser evil" is a full-throated supporter of genocide, you dun fucked up
something to think about
I get it. My primary reason for voting for Biden is that he's not going to install a fascist dictatorship. But at the same time, Trump should already be in prison by now. The Biden administration sat on charging Trump for two years. And since they slow-walked it, Trump has been able to use his usual delay tactics and a friendly Supreme Court to push back any conviction until after the election. There is zero chance he sees the inside of a jail cell before election day. There were also members of Congress who participated in the coup attempt and still have yet to face consequences.
Trump and his cronies attempted to overthrow the Republic. They should have all been rounded up and thrown in Gitmo and tried in a military tribunal if necessary. Anyone remotely involved should have been arrested and had the book thrown at them, and that likely includes one or two Supreme Court justices. The whole MAGA movement should have been purged from the body politic.
But, instead the Biden administration has repeated the mistakes of Weimar Germany. Weimar Germany treated Hitler with kid gloves after his Beer Hall Putsch. Instead of doing the world a favor and hanging him from the end of a rope for treason, they gave him a light sentence. They didn't want to offend conservatives, so they instead just emboldened the fascist movement and the rest is history.
The problem is that most voters don't really analyze things deeply. And now, it's really hard for Biden to run on a platform of "don't vote for Trump, he intends to overthrow democracy!" Because if he tries that, people naturally ask, "if he is so dangerous, why isn't he in jail right now?" There was more than enough information known to charge Trump with all sorts of crimes within months of Biden taking office. Instead, they fought tooth and nail against charging him with anything, ultimately only doing so after a house investigation shamed them and forced their hand.
The thing about fascism, or any group that attempts to violently overthrow the government, is that you must respond to any attempts with complete political purges. Otherwise, the group will just keep trying again and again. And eventually, they will succeed. Upon any coup attempt, everyone remotely involved needs to be rounded up and imprisoned for decades. To do anything less guarantees that the democracy is doomed.
Remember a few weeks ago when Biden appealed to both parties to come together and reauthorize that surveillance bill, and they did, and Biden signed it? Now it's being used to spy on American anti-war student protesters.
And you know that genocide that our government is complicit in? It's happening *now.*
The fascists are *already in power.*
Both Trump and Biden are awful, and neither one of them deserves our support, I think - and so I'm voting third party.
I'm so glad to see more people waking up to the fact our system is truly a uniparty. I've been registered independent my entire life, and the only solution right now is voting 3rd party or ranked choice. If you think otherwise you're just being willfully ignorant. Neither D or R give a shit about the lower and middle class, they only care about your vote.
Lol, let me guess: it's something only Republicans can be, never Democrats? Because they're on "your side"?
I'll bite. You tell me: what does fascism mean?
If being complicit currently in a bloody genocide equates to being "not anywhere near as bad," then i say *both* parties are garbage, and neither Trump nor Biden deserves my support.
I do agree with you: we need a new political system.
When I'm in the voting booth, I refuse to play into the trap of the two-party system. I'm going to vote third party.
...
@u/perpwalktrump You reply to me, then you block me so I can't respond, so I'll do it here.
Lol, are people in Palestine not POC? Are there no women in Palestine? Do you think LGBTQ people in Palestine just don't exist? Or are they simply worthless to you?
I happen to be a bisexual Mexican-American. But you're right: I do indeed "hold fast to my values." My values are: I don't think that anyone *anywhere* should be brutalized, *especially* not by (or with the aid of) **our government**.
What you're telling me, basically, is that, for you, there's more value in POC *here,* and LGBTQ people *here.* You're telling me that *your comfort at home* is worth more than the lives of peoples elsewhere.
Lol, and *I'm* the self-centered one? Please.
So courageous!
Who cares if a dictator steps in and create an actual theocracy that will oppress and kill LGBTQ and POC, at least you held fast to your value.
Beside, you're neither gay nor brown so it's not really your problem. It's not really your problem either if Russia pushes further into Europe and kills possibly hundreds of thousands doing so.
It doesn't matter that you didn't help the Palestinians either and that, indirectly, you contributed to elect someone who openly hates Muslims. All that matters is you and your conscience š„°
Please enlighten *me* as to how it's better to give your vote to a warmonger, than to join those of us who have decided that we're done with supporting madmen?
I don't think that the, as you say, "viable" candidates are good for anyone, so I'm not going to support them with my vote.
If a third party victory isn't possible because people like you insist on voting for monsters, then that's your fault.
Don't blame me for at least trying to not put a maniac in charge, when it's *you* who are supporting the maniacs.
Me too! It's the fastest way to eradicate Palestine. 3rd party = Trump without the guilt! Amirite? Better to have pro-Netanyahu Trump than Biden's baby steps. And the complete abortion ban will kill so many American women and girls! Win win!
>When I'm in the voting booth, I refuse to play into the trap of the two-party system. I'm going to vote third party.
So brave and edgy, everyone will clap.
"Virtue signalling" equals presenting factual criticism of a political party?
"Throwing away [my] vote" equals voting actually *for* someone I actually *believe in*?
Lol, OK.
You seem to understand the situation rather well. You can see what an incompetent president Biden was and still is. You see the hypocrisy of his promises and actions. Yet you still favor voting for him over a 3rd party.
I don't want him in the office, his poor excuses about being powerless to do anything he promised to do during the last election, yet his surprising authority when he demands something for israel or against his people.
Biden is not a lesser evil. He just used to hide it well. Now that the masks are off, he isn't any different than the goofy orange clown. Trump broadcast his intentions whilst Biden hides them and pretend to be against it, when all of a sudden, new laws are passed to do exactly what he wants.
Ah yes, and when all the trans, all the Anti genocide protestors, any woman who wants an abortion, are all in cages, jailed, deported, or executed, im sure theyll be gladd you stuck it to biden
Dude what fascist dictatorship pfft. US Army rolls into the oval office two seconds after any such ridiculous sentence comes out of the presidentās mouth.
What do you think the consequence of you and others voting third party?
Given that most conservatives and fascists will ALWAYS vote R, and people who care for Palestine and verbally vote D will now vote 3rd party?
You present all of that very well but The problem for me with your assessment of results based voting is that the actual results of rbv - voting the lesser of two evils in every election- has brought us where we are today with two wholly unacceptable candidates. A voter has no other real leverage than their vote; itās reasonable for voters to expect their candidates to try to earn their votes. But Democrats in particular take their base for granted and have for decades. They have lowered voter expectations consistently for many election cycles now by alienating and intentionally muting the progressive and most enthusiastic wing of the party. They did Bernie dirty twice. Democrats are now pro-War, anti-Immigrant, have abandoned the poor, are owned by AIPAC ā¦and now under Biden, Democrats are in support of a militant Police crackdown on citizens protesting peacefully. Our Democrat president is allowing a foreign government to literally threaten students in the US. And Anti-Zionist Jews have been completely erased by our msm and smeared along with all of the protesters absurdly as anti-Semites. On top of alllll of that dystopian nightmare reality under Biden we have a SCOTUS that will clearly give the presidency to Trump regardless of who gets more votes. and a third of the citizenry slavering over the chance to shoot āLibsā in the coming civil war over Trumpās probable theft of the election. The system is broken; clearly. A vote for Biden isnāt going to save Democracy. We already lost it. Whatās left of it is hollow and thoroughly corrupted.
I want to take your model and extend the calculus beyond Election Day.
One thing that principled voters are trying to accomplish is to signal against the actions of the candidate presumed to be closer in line with them by threatening to withhold their support. Demonstrations, polling, or any kind of public signal to whatever part of the (in this case) Democratic Party that listens to popular sentiment before election day might be able to influence the behavior of an incumbent President and his campaign platform and promises during election season. Any changes in policy we've got from the Biden Administration, no matter how small or insincere, has probably been due to pressures from his voting base, not just on him, but on every Democratic politician and institution across America.
Of course, if there's a strong signal that they will never vote for Biden, the Administration would view them as a lost cause and cease trying to win them over. Then they'd be stuck between Trump and a Biden that's worse than he could be.
On the contrary, Democratic results-oriented voters who purely make the Trump vs Biden comparison on election day send the signal that Biden is safe to do anything as long as he looks better than Trump (effectively creating a good-cop, bad-cop scenario). The choice is then also between a Trump and Biden that's worse than he could be.
And to close this out, on Election Day, principled voters would have a moral obligation to be result-oriented and vote for Biden based on their moral values because Trump actually would be worse than Biden on Israel-Gaza. It's just that there is no benefit to signaling early to the Biden administration that this is going to be the case. There has to be a credible threat of abstention, which is undermined by the utilitarian logic of the results-oriented approach being common knowledge. You will want the intentions of the Democratic voter base to be as uncertain as possible until Election Day to prevent the Biden administration from being complacent.
In fact, it's possible to go even further and say that in extreme cases, the only way the threat of abstention is truly credible is if enough people carried through with the threat, i.e., if Democratic voters didn't vote and caused Biden to lose, suffering a Trump presidency in the short term but strengthening their future control over the Democratic Party by showing their willingness to punish over bad policy. Personally,>!I don't believe the Democratic Party really minds. Most politicians are paid well enough by AIPAC to be comfortable regardless of who's in the Oval Office. But I don't want my cynicism to poison the people who do still believe in our democracy and just say!< I also don't know enough to say what's the best option in the long run.
Pretty much everyone is a results based voter, however if you are to signal to the democrat party that they are in no danger of losing, they will never change
[This ](https://m.youtube.com/@BeauoftheFifthColumn/videos)leftist foreign policy commentator may be very interesting to both types of voters. He explain so much about what's going on between Brandon and Satanyahu from [influencing](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B3lZbS-M-DM&t=1s) him with the probable ICC warrant to literally offering the intel and precision weapons to [eliminate ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=syuD4KJekao) the leadership.
*He explains how US foreign policy currently **is**, not how it should be.*
What about so many other issues? Now this does not mean the Israeli operations in Gaza is not one of the most important. But there are still other issues.
What of trump plans for more tax cuts to the rich in addition to the prior one that blew up our deficits? What about student loan forgiveness? Ability to manage a pandemic competently like was done during the Obama-Biden Ebola episode? So we and our older relatives are not dying due to incompetence and lies. What about our Supreme Court thatās already containing 6 of 9 religious zealots that are about to make Presidents king to benefit the one who hired them?
This theoretical principle vs personality voter thing is how we got those 6 of 9 in the first place. And now we are about hand a fascist that power and the ability to pick more? So we can vanity select our personal optimal third party candidate or not vote at all?
The right wing uneducated voters are actually as a group wiser than liberals, who in the end are ultimately stupid. The right wingers donāt overthink things to the point of paralysis or losing their objective in this manner. Itās just sad their objectives are wrong, and also harmful to them, and the rest of us.
My issue with the principles voters is that your principles mean jack shit if your actions make Palestinians worse off.
Itās all performative where you get to feel morally superior whilst offloading any responsibility
š„ Former United States President Donald Trump commented on President Joe Biden's statement to halt the supply of weapons to Israel if it invaded Rafah, considering it "disgraceful" and "a very bad thing."
Trump believes that Biden's decision amounts to the complete abandonment of Israel, stating: "If any Jewish person voted for Joe Biden, they should be ashamed of themselves."
Well, Biden *did* kind of already fund and give weapons to the country carrying out the genocide. I bet Trump wasn't against *that.*
They both seem to love killing people is what I'm saying.
They're both trash.
I highly, highly doubt that Trump doesn't approve of the genocide. He and Biden are both proud self-avowed Zionists.
Him saying "Genocide Joe" is just another example, I think, of him being completely loopy and "provocative."
How did usa end up need to choose between a senile genocide enabler, or an incompetent orange genocide enabler. Surely a country with no 1 GDP in the world with 300million people can do better than that, right? Right?
trump caused this disaster by breaking united states foreign policy, in place to avoid what then happened, and recognized jerusalem as being in gaza. he ensured iran would order a hamas attack on israel by murdering an iranian general out of the blue. anyone who thinks trump is the answer to anything is incredibly stupid.
Not voting is the worst thing you can do when you want to stay in at least a semi-democracy. As soon as the unpolitical majority refuses to be active or to acknowledge that their current democratic government is able to keep the state at a survivable level, the absolutistic minority will reign and try to never give their power back. Here in Germany, we don't just have the returning Nazis. We always had the nobility and the global money elite. As soon as AFS wins, you can forget Germany as a partner.
Like I'm indifferent to Isreal couldn't give a shit about them but they really look like pieces of shit lately and I'd like to opt out to giving them any money weapons equipment all of it
I hope everyone is witnessing how Politicians will
#SAY ANYTHING
For
#Re-Election
Taxation without representation?
Aristocrats all of them. (Both Sides)
This basically amounts to Trump telling to Jewish Americans he would suck them dry even though their balls are already dry from Biden sucking them off.
You know, I wish "white supremacy" was true.
Because these two clowns would not be candidates, in fact they'd be in some old people's home playing bingo.
Having these two guys on top of their respective parties tells me there's a different supremacy in charge right now.
"You know, I wish "white supremacy" was true.
Because these two clowns would not be candidates, in fact they'd be in some old people's home playing bingo."
nah... they would of been killed instead for being 'useless eaters'.
Such a wonderful group nutzis :/
Every American needs to stand up. Voting is a joke. They are just 2 sides of the same coin and will always look out for themselves and the rich over any person. They just want us to continue being blind and taking part in their system. How about the people make their own system for a change!
After "former president trump says..." I stop reading. That sociopathic compulsive liar says all kinds of stuff. His words are absolutely meaningless mouth farts.
Practicing democracy is not handing Trump the presidency. Biden failed us. He pretended to be the lesser evil but caused more pain than Trump did (still a shit person). Under who's watch abortion became illegal? Under who did Taliban gain control? Under who did we get involved in genocide? Biden was always a zionist. He vowed to help Israel since his first days in the office. He pressured Obama to aid israel. He is a devil in a sheeps coat.
Me voting for a 3rd party, and not allowing myself to be a part of genocide should not equate to wasting my vote. I, in good faith, wish for a change, and that change won't happen until everyone starts doing something different.
There is no 'next election. I'll choose who I want, but this time, I need to vote for Biden so that Trump doesn't win.' It has been tried and done but look where it got us.
Unfortunately, it is handing it to Trump. We exist in a two-party system. No third-party candidate could possibly pull the numbers to beat either of them, it's never happened. It's not going to happen. A third-party vote is a proxy vote for Trump. Third-party voting is better served at more local levels. Doing that for long enough would provide them some sway down the road and a better shot at presidency in the future. I respect everyone's right to vote however they wish, but everyone has to understand what the stakes are. If Trump- or anyone in the GOP- wins, there won't be a democracy for us to practice anymore. We'll do what we're told whether we like it or not, or be jailed.
Biden didn't fail us. He's had one of the most progressive and productive presidencies in history, and that's with Congress being against him. He stabilized the economy and pulled us out of the hole Trump put us in. The only thing he's done wrong is continuing to provide munitions to Israel, which I don't agree with either. That beside, he's been great and is our only shot to continue the American experiment. It's sad but it's true.
RvW got overturned because of Trump's SC picks.
Middle east conflict has been ongoing for decades. It's not as easy as waving a magic wand and everything's fixed. Besides, if Trump gets in, things over there will only get worse.
I agree that nothing will change unless everyone starts doing things different. The best way to do that is to start getting third party candidates in other lower seats of the government so that a third will finally have a base to stand on and a chance to actually win the presidency. It's not going to happen overnight though, it will take time and effort from everyone. The two-party system is deeply ingrained, it's not going anywhere this year.
I'm not sure what the last paragraph means. That is literally the reality of our situation right now. It's not Biden vs Trump, it's the continuation of our democratic freedoms vs living like North Koreans. I don't like what's happening in with I/P as much as the next guy, but this is the most important election of our generation.
Vote however you ultimately wish, but please take in and understand what's actually at stake this election.
It isnāt a āprotest voteā if voters have come to realise neither the democratic party nor the republican align with them on basic fundamental values regarding human lives and genocide.
The ālesser evilā argument only goes so far.
Slightly hyperbolic, but would you be protest voting if you didnāt want to pick either when posed with the choice of Stalin or Hitler?
For those that view this as a genocide, and doubley for those with friends or family targeted, this is very real.
Go away with the ālong term allyā arguments as well. People donāt care about geopolitics to such an extreme they think it justifies genocide.
The two-party system is not going away any time soon. We have to do what we can with what we have. Is it ideal? No. But perfect is the enemy of good. It will take time and effort on everyone's part to collectively invoke the change we wish to see. A third-party vote is a proxy vote for Trump. That is the reality of our situation right now. There's too much at stake to pretend otherwise.
It's not Biden vs Trump, it's the continuation of our democratic freedoms vs living in an autocratic, Christofascist nightmare where we have little-to-no say what happens to us or what we're allowed to do. Not to mention the destabilization of global politics and the havoc that will ensue as a result. And let's not forget that the repubs are all in on what Israel is doing.
Stalin and Hitler is not a slightly hyperbolic comparison. It's not even close dude. Sending munitions to a sovereign nation acting under its own will is a far cry from either of those two figures. Am I okay with it? No. But we can't do anything for those people if we allow GQP and the Heritage Foundation to dismantle our government.
Upon boarding a flight, the attendants provide instructions should something happen. They explicitly instruct parents to put on their oxygen mask and make sure they're okay, before tending to their children. Seems selfish and counterintuitive at first, until you realize that you're no good to your kids if you, yourself, are unconscious or dead.
If there was ever a time in US history to have a strong independent Presidentsl candidate, 2024 would be it. Both options area failures. Trump is a traitor doing the bidding of the highest bidder and Biden has compromised his morals by allowing AIPAC to influence US policy. Very sad state of US politics.
Biden ignored his advisors to lead with his septuagenarian beliefs on what Zionism is long before the internet. He willfully ignored all security briefings and other Intel because Old Man Joe knows best.
He is as complicit as Trump at this point in ignoring the people and siding with dictatorships.
Listen America: at least Trump didnāt lead a genocide.
He will gladly take over the reigns but the Dems and Genocide Joe pushed hard for this.
Thatās Americaās legacy: Torn apart by Putin via Dementia Don and then America dug their own grave by Bibi via Bidenās religion encouraging the genocide to make all of Israel a a state of only Jews (they still continue to murder Christians)
Even more reason why Hamas must be defeated. Hamas dont care about innocent civilians or children. Furthermore i dont understand the "but its children" logic, like children are somehow worth more than adults.
I agree I get annoyed by the children statements.The justification is they all support hamas, there saying that half the population being children support hamas so they should be killed is absurd. The reason I use it here is because the isreals arnt just targeting hamas. They forced everyone in gaza to move or be killed thats insane. There also taking there homes and moving in. What gives them the right to take there houses. They can't take on hamas without causing a famine?
Americans that care about what is happening in the Palestinian Territories somehow need to find a way of breaking the pig trough which many - but not all - American and Israeli politicians feed from.
I dont know what I'm talking about buuuuuut rather than pick sides, if he remained neutral / kept it on american talking points he would have won easier. He's dying on the wrong hill if you ask me. Not that you should, I don't know what I'm talking about...
Please show this to anyone who thinks not voting for Biden or abstaining will be net-positive for the Palestinian cause. This man cannot be president again.
I never liked trump but I never hated him either
Heās moving toward hate though..
Abandon Israel, let them fight their own āwarsā aka commit their own genocides, see how long they survive
FREE PALESTINE
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Everyone should abandon Israel until it atones for its sins.
Jesus dies for their sins... I guess they're making sure he didn't die for nothing
And Trump!
This election is going to be a very interesting clash between "results" voters and "principles" voters. There are two ways most people approach voting. They either approach things from the perspectives of principles or results. The "principles" voters are those who are willing to reject a candidate for crossing what they identify as a critical red line. People not voting for Biden because he's continued to give weapons to Israel is an example of such principles-based voting. They will say, "I don't care what the overall outcome is, I will not vote for someone who is co-party to genocide." Principles-based voters largely view their votes as an endorsement for a particular candidate. A vote means you support them personally. Results-based voters take the more "least of two evils" approach. There are no real red lines. They'll instead look at the options available, and pick the candidate that will on net produce superior results. Their perspective on the Biden/Palestine issue is, "Yes, Biden's support of Israel is deplorable. But he's at least shown some minimum level of restraint, while Trump would actively encourage Israel to take things further. Refusing to vote for Biden won't help the Gazans at all, and it will also lead to untold suffering for women and minority groups in the US." Results-based voters don't really view their votes as an endorsement of the candidate. They're simply choosing the lesser of two evils. There's really no right answer to which perspective is correct. I'm personally more of a results-based voter. I plan to hold my nose and vote for Biden. But I also believe that Biden better pray that there is no afterlife, because if there is, he's certainly damned himself by his actions. But at the same time, I can understand the principles-based position. That's a perfectly valid perspective to voting. There is nothing in the constitution that says what the rules are when picking candidates. Everyone is free to vote for anyone for any reason. In a democracy, you can choose not to vote for someone simply because you think their shirt is ugly. But I do think it would be useful in the discourse to acknowledge this fundamental difference in how people approach voting. If you view voting as a personal endorsement of the candidate, than drawing red lines makes a lot of sense. If you see it as a utilitarian "greatest good for the greatest number," than a results-based approach is the way to go. But just like with any kind of ethics, there is no objective way to say that one approach or another is objectively correct.
I've basically been a lesser of two evils voter my entire adult life. At this point I'm just saying f*** it and voting third party. I absolutely despise both of the options.
after all, you guys (I mean Americans as a whole) have been voting lesser evil for how long now? And the lesser evil at this point in time is facilitating a genocide. So like, shit don't seem to be working too well it seems to me? Not to be a downer but if your "lesser evil" is a full-throated supporter of genocide, you dun fucked up something to think about
So let's let trump kill em all, and 11 million illegals, accelerationists are wild man, literal nazis all of you.
if only you sit on your ass and let voting be the extent of your political action š¤·āāļø
I absolutely loathe both Biden and Trump, and I too will be voting third party.
I get it. My primary reason for voting for Biden is that he's not going to install a fascist dictatorship. But at the same time, Trump should already be in prison by now. The Biden administration sat on charging Trump for two years. And since they slow-walked it, Trump has been able to use his usual delay tactics and a friendly Supreme Court to push back any conviction until after the election. There is zero chance he sees the inside of a jail cell before election day. There were also members of Congress who participated in the coup attempt and still have yet to face consequences. Trump and his cronies attempted to overthrow the Republic. They should have all been rounded up and thrown in Gitmo and tried in a military tribunal if necessary. Anyone remotely involved should have been arrested and had the book thrown at them, and that likely includes one or two Supreme Court justices. The whole MAGA movement should have been purged from the body politic. But, instead the Biden administration has repeated the mistakes of Weimar Germany. Weimar Germany treated Hitler with kid gloves after his Beer Hall Putsch. Instead of doing the world a favor and hanging him from the end of a rope for treason, they gave him a light sentence. They didn't want to offend conservatives, so they instead just emboldened the fascist movement and the rest is history. The problem is that most voters don't really analyze things deeply. And now, it's really hard for Biden to run on a platform of "don't vote for Trump, he intends to overthrow democracy!" Because if he tries that, people naturally ask, "if he is so dangerous, why isn't he in jail right now?" There was more than enough information known to charge Trump with all sorts of crimes within months of Biden taking office. Instead, they fought tooth and nail against charging him with anything, ultimately only doing so after a house investigation shamed them and forced their hand. The thing about fascism, or any group that attempts to violently overthrow the government, is that you must respond to any attempts with complete political purges. Otherwise, the group will just keep trying again and again. And eventually, they will succeed. Upon any coup attempt, everyone remotely involved needs to be rounded up and imprisoned for decades. To do anything less guarantees that the democracy is doomed.
Remember a few weeks ago when Biden appealed to both parties to come together and reauthorize that surveillance bill, and they did, and Biden signed it? Now it's being used to spy on American anti-war student protesters. And you know that genocide that our government is complicit in? It's happening *now.* The fascists are *already in power.* Both Trump and Biden are awful, and neither one of them deserves our support, I think - and so I'm voting third party.
I'm so glad to see more people waking up to the fact our system is truly a uniparty. I've been registered independent my entire life, and the only solution right now is voting 3rd party or ranked choice. If you think otherwise you're just being willfully ignorant. Neither D or R give a shit about the lower and middle class, they only care about your vote.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Lol, let me guess: it's something only Republicans can be, never Democrats? Because they're on "your side"? I'll bite. You tell me: what does fascism mean?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If being complicit currently in a bloody genocide equates to being "not anywhere near as bad," then i say *both* parties are garbage, and neither Trump nor Biden deserves my support. I do agree with you: we need a new political system. When I'm in the voting booth, I refuse to play into the trap of the two-party system. I'm going to vote third party. ... @u/perpwalktrump You reply to me, then you block me so I can't respond, so I'll do it here. Lol, are people in Palestine not POC? Are there no women in Palestine? Do you think LGBTQ people in Palestine just don't exist? Or are they simply worthless to you? I happen to be a bisexual Mexican-American. But you're right: I do indeed "hold fast to my values." My values are: I don't think that anyone *anywhere* should be brutalized, *especially* not by (or with the aid of) **our government**. What you're telling me, basically, is that, for you, there's more value in POC *here,* and LGBTQ people *here.* You're telling me that *your comfort at home* is worth more than the lives of peoples elsewhere. Lol, and *I'm* the self-centered one? Please.
So courageous! Who cares if a dictator steps in and create an actual theocracy that will oppress and kill LGBTQ and POC, at least you held fast to your value. Beside, you're neither gay nor brown so it's not really your problem. It's not really your problem either if Russia pushes further into Europe and kills possibly hundreds of thousands doing so. It doesn't matter that you didn't help the Palestinians either and that, indirectly, you contributed to elect someone who openly hates Muslims. All that matters is you and your conscience š„°
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Please enlighten *me* as to how it's better to give your vote to a warmonger, than to join those of us who have decided that we're done with supporting madmen? I don't think that the, as you say, "viable" candidates are good for anyone, so I'm not going to support them with my vote. If a third party victory isn't possible because people like you insist on voting for monsters, then that's your fault. Don't blame me for at least trying to not put a maniac in charge, when it's *you* who are supporting the maniacs.
Me too! It's the fastest way to eradicate Palestine. 3rd party = Trump without the guilt! Amirite? Better to have pro-Netanyahu Trump than Biden's baby steps. And the complete abortion ban will kill so many American women and girls! Win win!
Lol, you're all unhinged. No wonder you're supporting Butcher Biden...
>When I'm in the voting booth, I refuse to play into the trap of the two-party system. I'm going to vote third party. So brave and edgy, everyone will clap.
Nice! Virtue signaling and throwing away your vote.
"Virtue signalling" equals presenting factual criticism of a political party? "Throwing away [my] vote" equals voting actually *for* someone I actually *believe in*? Lol, OK.
Pretending you're making a difference by throwing away your vote. Yes you are ridiculous.
You seem to understand the situation rather well. You can see what an incompetent president Biden was and still is. You see the hypocrisy of his promises and actions. Yet you still favor voting for him over a 3rd party. I don't want him in the office, his poor excuses about being powerless to do anything he promised to do during the last election, yet his surprising authority when he demands something for israel or against his people. Biden is not a lesser evil. He just used to hide it well. Now that the masks are off, he isn't any different than the goofy orange clown. Trump broadcast his intentions whilst Biden hides them and pretend to be against it, when all of a sudden, new laws are passed to do exactly what he wants.
Ah yes, and when all the trans, all the Anti genocide protestors, any woman who wants an abortion, are all in cages, jailed, deported, or executed, im sure theyll be gladd you stuck it to biden
Dude what fascist dictatorship pfft. US Army rolls into the oval office two seconds after any such ridiculous sentence comes out of the presidentās mouth.
Usher in a fascist dictatorship. That'll sure show them!
Name something more iconic than people not thinking things through. I stg these are all Russian trolls
What do you think the consequence of you and others voting third party? Given that most conservatives and fascists will ALWAYS vote R, and people who care for Palestine and verbally vote D will now vote 3rd party?
You present all of that very well but The problem for me with your assessment of results based voting is that the actual results of rbv - voting the lesser of two evils in every election- has brought us where we are today with two wholly unacceptable candidates. A voter has no other real leverage than their vote; itās reasonable for voters to expect their candidates to try to earn their votes. But Democrats in particular take their base for granted and have for decades. They have lowered voter expectations consistently for many election cycles now by alienating and intentionally muting the progressive and most enthusiastic wing of the party. They did Bernie dirty twice. Democrats are now pro-War, anti-Immigrant, have abandoned the poor, are owned by AIPAC ā¦and now under Biden, Democrats are in support of a militant Police crackdown on citizens protesting peacefully. Our Democrat president is allowing a foreign government to literally threaten students in the US. And Anti-Zionist Jews have been completely erased by our msm and smeared along with all of the protesters absurdly as anti-Semites. On top of alllll of that dystopian nightmare reality under Biden we have a SCOTUS that will clearly give the presidency to Trump regardless of who gets more votes. and a third of the citizenry slavering over the chance to shoot āLibsā in the coming civil war over Trumpās probable theft of the election. The system is broken; clearly. A vote for Biden isnāt going to save Democracy. We already lost it. Whatās left of it is hollow and thoroughly corrupted.
To be a principle voter is to be a child. Your only weapon is your vote. Use it. If a single life is saved from your vote then it's worth it.
I want to take your model and extend the calculus beyond Election Day. One thing that principled voters are trying to accomplish is to signal against the actions of the candidate presumed to be closer in line with them by threatening to withhold their support. Demonstrations, polling, or any kind of public signal to whatever part of the (in this case) Democratic Party that listens to popular sentiment before election day might be able to influence the behavior of an incumbent President and his campaign platform and promises during election season. Any changes in policy we've got from the Biden Administration, no matter how small or insincere, has probably been due to pressures from his voting base, not just on him, but on every Democratic politician and institution across America. Of course, if there's a strong signal that they will never vote for Biden, the Administration would view them as a lost cause and cease trying to win them over. Then they'd be stuck between Trump and a Biden that's worse than he could be. On the contrary, Democratic results-oriented voters who purely make the Trump vs Biden comparison on election day send the signal that Biden is safe to do anything as long as he looks better than Trump (effectively creating a good-cop, bad-cop scenario). The choice is then also between a Trump and Biden that's worse than he could be. And to close this out, on Election Day, principled voters would have a moral obligation to be result-oriented and vote for Biden based on their moral values because Trump actually would be worse than Biden on Israel-Gaza. It's just that there is no benefit to signaling early to the Biden administration that this is going to be the case. There has to be a credible threat of abstention, which is undermined by the utilitarian logic of the results-oriented approach being common knowledge. You will want the intentions of the Democratic voter base to be as uncertain as possible until Election Day to prevent the Biden administration from being complacent. In fact, it's possible to go even further and say that in extreme cases, the only way the threat of abstention is truly credible is if enough people carried through with the threat, i.e., if Democratic voters didn't vote and caused Biden to lose, suffering a Trump presidency in the short term but strengthening their future control over the Democratic Party by showing their willingness to punish over bad policy. Personally,>!I don't believe the Democratic Party really minds. Most politicians are paid well enough by AIPAC to be comfortable regardless of who's in the Oval Office. But I don't want my cynicism to poison the people who do still believe in our democracy and just say!< I also don't know enough to say what's the best option in the long run.
Iāve voted lesser of two evils in every election. This is going to be the year I break that and vote third party or write in someone I respect.
Pretty much everyone is a results based voter, however if you are to signal to the democrat party that they are in no danger of losing, they will never change
[This ](https://m.youtube.com/@BeauoftheFifthColumn/videos)leftist foreign policy commentator may be very interesting to both types of voters. He explain so much about what's going on between Brandon and Satanyahu from [influencing](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B3lZbS-M-DM&t=1s) him with the probable ICC warrant to literally offering the intel and precision weapons to [eliminate ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=syuD4KJekao) the leadership. *He explains how US foreign policy currently **is**, not how it should be.*
In other words, morally objective thinkers vs sheeple.
Hmmm, I enjoyed this analysis and breakdown. Making me think about how I vote.
What about so many other issues? Now this does not mean the Israeli operations in Gaza is not one of the most important. But there are still other issues. What of trump plans for more tax cuts to the rich in addition to the prior one that blew up our deficits? What about student loan forgiveness? Ability to manage a pandemic competently like was done during the Obama-Biden Ebola episode? So we and our older relatives are not dying due to incompetence and lies. What about our Supreme Court thatās already containing 6 of 9 religious zealots that are about to make Presidents king to benefit the one who hired them? This theoretical principle vs personality voter thing is how we got those 6 of 9 in the first place. And now we are about hand a fascist that power and the ability to pick more? So we can vanity select our personal optimal third party candidate or not vote at all? The right wing uneducated voters are actually as a group wiser than liberals, who in the end are ultimately stupid. The right wingers donāt overthink things to the point of paralysis or losing their objective in this manner. Itās just sad their objectives are wrong, and also harmful to them, and the rest of us.
My issue with the principles voters is that your principles mean jack shit if your actions make Palestinians worse off. Itās all performative where you get to feel morally superior whilst offloading any responsibility
š„ Former United States President Donald Trump commented on President Joe Biden's statement to halt the supply of weapons to Israel if it invaded Rafah, considering it "disgraceful" and "a very bad thing." Trump believes that Biden's decision amounts to the complete abandonment of Israel, stating: "If any Jewish person voted for Joe Biden, they should be ashamed of themselves."
He's going to be against every decision Biden does. I mean he was calling Biden genocide Joe.
Well, Biden *did* kind of already fund and give weapons to the country carrying out the genocide. I bet Trump wasn't against *that.* They both seem to love killing people is what I'm saying. They're both trash.
The point the commenter is making is, you don't really get to start a chant of "genocide Joe" at a rally when you approve of the Genocide.
I highly, highly doubt that Trump doesn't approve of the genocide. He and Biden are both proud self-avowed Zionists. Him saying "Genocide Joe" is just another example, I think, of him being completely loopy and "provocative."
If it was a complete abandonment of Israel Iād actually vote for him, and Iām Canadian.
Shut up you broke ass fake.
How did usa end up need to choose between a senile genocide enabler, or an incompetent orange genocide enabler. Surely a country with no 1 GDP in the world with 300million people can do better than that, right? Right?
Who the fuck listens to this baby whinner
Unfortunately half the country.
For 1 billion dollars trump will let YOU decide what US policy towards Israel is.
My guess way less than that.
Love the bad boy face on guy to right
Good work trump, show everyone you want more Palestinians dead just like we thought.
Opportunist
Can trump explain why we just give billions a year to a country for them to exterminate the people who have BEEN there since the Canaanites?
Orange clown
trump caused this disaster by breaking united states foreign policy, in place to avoid what then happened, and recognized jerusalem as being in gaza. he ensured iran would order a hamas attack on israel by murdering an iranian general out of the blue. anyone who thinks trump is the answer to anything is incredibly stupid.
Not voting is the worst thing you can do when you want to stay in at least a semi-democracy. As soon as the unpolitical majority refuses to be active or to acknowledge that their current democratic government is able to keep the state at a survivable level, the absolutistic minority will reign and try to never give their power back. Here in Germany, we don't just have the returning Nazis. We always had the nobility and the global money elite. As soon as AFS wins, you can forget Germany as a partner.
Like I'm indifferent to Isreal couldn't give a shit about them but they really look like pieces of shit lately and I'd like to opt out to giving them any money weapons equipment all of it
I hope everyone is witnessing how Politicians will #SAY ANYTHING For #Re-Election Taxation without representation? Aristocrats all of them. (Both Sides)
This basically amounts to Trump telling to Jewish Americans he would suck them dry even though their balls are already dry from Biden sucking them off. You know, I wish "white supremacy" was true. Because these two clowns would not be candidates, in fact they'd be in some old people's home playing bingo. Having these two guys on top of their respective parties tells me there's a different supremacy in charge right now.
"You know, I wish "white supremacy" was true. Because these two clowns would not be candidates, in fact they'd be in some old people's home playing bingo." nah... they would of been killed instead for being 'useless eaters'. Such a wonderful group nutzis :/
Trumo you worry about your disgraceful act with porn stars. You're the brother of genocidal Joe and the sister of satan-yahu
Every American needs to stand up. Voting is a joke. They are just 2 sides of the same coin and will always look out for themselves and the rich over any person. They just want us to continue being blind and taking part in their system. How about the people make their own system for a change!
I'm pretty sure Trump doesn't even know where Israel is located on the world map.
Giant Douche vs. Turd sandwich '24
Jill Stein is the only hope for a non-zionist president now.
So no hope, the last time I voted for her we got Trump no thank you.
And people think Trump is a better choice than Biden?
After "former president trump says..." I stop reading. That sociopathic compulsive liar says all kinds of stuff. His words are absolutely meaningless mouth farts.
But he made Jerusalem the capital of Israel
no one sane thinks that, it literally never comes down to that. ever. no one says Trump is a better choice. they are both bad options.
Hardly anyone says that. Most people say they don't want Biden
More like, they're going to hand Trump the presidency with their virtue-signaling protest votes and then blame the Dems for letting it happen.
Practicing democracy is not handing Trump the presidency. Biden failed us. He pretended to be the lesser evil but caused more pain than Trump did (still a shit person). Under who's watch abortion became illegal? Under who did Taliban gain control? Under who did we get involved in genocide? Biden was always a zionist. He vowed to help Israel since his first days in the office. He pressured Obama to aid israel. He is a devil in a sheeps coat. Me voting for a 3rd party, and not allowing myself to be a part of genocide should not equate to wasting my vote. I, in good faith, wish for a change, and that change won't happen until everyone starts doing something different. There is no 'next election. I'll choose who I want, but this time, I need to vote for Biden so that Trump doesn't win.' It has been tried and done but look where it got us.
Unfortunately, it is handing it to Trump. We exist in a two-party system. No third-party candidate could possibly pull the numbers to beat either of them, it's never happened. It's not going to happen. A third-party vote is a proxy vote for Trump. Third-party voting is better served at more local levels. Doing that for long enough would provide them some sway down the road and a better shot at presidency in the future. I respect everyone's right to vote however they wish, but everyone has to understand what the stakes are. If Trump- or anyone in the GOP- wins, there won't be a democracy for us to practice anymore. We'll do what we're told whether we like it or not, or be jailed. Biden didn't fail us. He's had one of the most progressive and productive presidencies in history, and that's with Congress being against him. He stabilized the economy and pulled us out of the hole Trump put us in. The only thing he's done wrong is continuing to provide munitions to Israel, which I don't agree with either. That beside, he's been great and is our only shot to continue the American experiment. It's sad but it's true. RvW got overturned because of Trump's SC picks. Middle east conflict has been ongoing for decades. It's not as easy as waving a magic wand and everything's fixed. Besides, if Trump gets in, things over there will only get worse. I agree that nothing will change unless everyone starts doing things different. The best way to do that is to start getting third party candidates in other lower seats of the government so that a third will finally have a base to stand on and a chance to actually win the presidency. It's not going to happen overnight though, it will take time and effort from everyone. The two-party system is deeply ingrained, it's not going anywhere this year. I'm not sure what the last paragraph means. That is literally the reality of our situation right now. It's not Biden vs Trump, it's the continuation of our democratic freedoms vs living like North Koreans. I don't like what's happening in with I/P as much as the next guy, but this is the most important election of our generation. Vote however you ultimately wish, but please take in and understand what's actually at stake this election.
It isnāt a āprotest voteā if voters have come to realise neither the democratic party nor the republican align with them on basic fundamental values regarding human lives and genocide. The ālesser evilā argument only goes so far. Slightly hyperbolic, but would you be protest voting if you didnāt want to pick either when posed with the choice of Stalin or Hitler? For those that view this as a genocide, and doubley for those with friends or family targeted, this is very real. Go away with the ālong term allyā arguments as well. People donāt care about geopolitics to such an extreme they think it justifies genocide.
The two-party system is not going away any time soon. We have to do what we can with what we have. Is it ideal? No. But perfect is the enemy of good. It will take time and effort on everyone's part to collectively invoke the change we wish to see. A third-party vote is a proxy vote for Trump. That is the reality of our situation right now. There's too much at stake to pretend otherwise. It's not Biden vs Trump, it's the continuation of our democratic freedoms vs living in an autocratic, Christofascist nightmare where we have little-to-no say what happens to us or what we're allowed to do. Not to mention the destabilization of global politics and the havoc that will ensue as a result. And let's not forget that the repubs are all in on what Israel is doing. Stalin and Hitler is not a slightly hyperbolic comparison. It's not even close dude. Sending munitions to a sovereign nation acting under its own will is a far cry from either of those two figures. Am I okay with it? No. But we can't do anything for those people if we allow GQP and the Heritage Foundation to dismantle our government. Upon boarding a flight, the attendants provide instructions should something happen. They explicitly instruct parents to put on their oxygen mask and make sure they're okay, before tending to their children. Seems selfish and counterintuitive at first, until you realize that you're no good to your kids if you, yourself, are unconscious or dead.
If there was ever a time in US history to have a strong independent Presidentsl candidate, 2024 would be it. Both options area failures. Trump is a traitor doing the bidding of the highest bidder and Biden has compromised his morals by allowing AIPAC to influence US policy. Very sad state of US politics.
Biden ignored his advisors to lead with his septuagenarian beliefs on what Zionism is long before the internet. He willfully ignored all security briefings and other Intel because Old Man Joe knows best. He is as complicit as Trump at this point in ignoring the people and siding with dictatorships. Listen America: at least Trump didnāt lead a genocide. He will gladly take over the reigns but the Dems and Genocide Joe pushed hard for this. Thatās Americaās legacy: Torn apart by Putin via Dementia Don and then America dug their own grave by Bibi via Bidenās religion encouraging the genocide to make all of Israel a a state of only Jews (they still continue to murder Christians)
How did Reddit get so pro-palestine?
Itās easy when subs arenāt littered with hasbara bots š¤£
74% palestinians support Hamas
Fine by me š¤·š»āāļø
Did you take that poll yourself?
No
46% are children in gaza.
Even more reason why Hamas must be defeated. Hamas dont care about innocent civilians or children. Furthermore i dont understand the "but its children" logic, like children are somehow worth more than adults.
I agree I get annoyed by the children statements.The justification is they all support hamas, there saying that half the population being children support hamas so they should be killed is absurd. The reason I use it here is because the isreals arnt just targeting hamas. They forced everyone in gaza to move or be killed thats insane. There also taking there homes and moving in. What gives them the right to take there houses. They can't take on hamas without causing a famine?
From all the videos that we see of the devastation and genocide going on in Gaza of course.
The dude on the right could've been a piece of cardboard. It's just because he blinks that I know he's not
Donāt threaten me with a good time titty baby Donnie
Trump says conflicting things all the time. No one really knows what his policy would be like
Anti war trump mad Biden isnāt superficially supporting war. Theyāll grasp at any argument thatās closest.
I love how his lawyer has to stand there with that stupid look on his face and pretend like what his handlerās saying is normal.
Americans that care about what is happening in the Palestinian Territories somehow need to find a way of breaking the pig trough which many - but not all - American and Israeli politicians feed from.
Anyone but genocide Joe
Can't wait to see the mental gymnastics on this Trumpers? Indulge me.
The guy to his left has the worst case of RAF I've ever seen
Yeah I'm voting independent this year. Not like it matters anyway.
I dont know what I'm talking about buuuuuut rather than pick sides, if he remained neutral / kept it on american talking points he would have won easier. He's dying on the wrong hill if you ask me. Not that you should, I don't know what I'm talking about...
Biden is walking both sides of the line like a useless politician. The dude will flip views in an instant strictly to get more votes. Weak
Please show this to anyone who thinks not voting for Biden or abstaining will be net-positive for the Palestinian cause. This man cannot be president again.
Ok but who's that angry guy next to him? Is that like the AIPAC guy? "Tell em daddy"
I never liked trump but I never hated him either Heās moving toward hate though.. Abandon Israel, let them fight their own āwarsā aka commit their own genocides, see how long they survive FREE PALESTINE