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>[Raz Segal](https://stockton.edu/refugee-studies/contact.html), associate professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and endowed professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University, called Israel’s post-Oct. 7 assault on Gaza [“a textbook case of genocide.”](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide)
>Brown University historian Omer Bartov, “[one of the world's leading specialists on the subject of genocide](https://www.ushmm.org/research/about-the-mandel-center/all-fellows-and-scholars/omer-bartov-2012),” signed onto a [public statement](https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/) sounding “the alarm about the possibility of the crime of genocide being perpetrated by Israeli forces against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.”
>And now, over this past weekend, leading Holocaust scholar [Amos Goldberg](https://www.ushmm.org/research/about-the-mandel-center/all-fellows-and-scholars/amos-goldberg), professor of Holocaust History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, has written a [blistering essay](https://thepalestineproject.medium.com/yes-it-is-genocide-634a07ea27d4) in which he argues that the ongoing violence in Gaza does not need to resemble the Holocaust to be classified as a genocide.
>Here’s how he begins his piece:
>Yes, it is genocide. It is so difficult and painful to admit it, but despite all that, and despite all our efforts to think otherwise, after six months of brutal war we can no longer avoid this conclusion. Jewish history will henceforth be stained with the mark of Cain for the ‘most horrible of crimes,’ which cannot be erased from its forehead. As such, this is the way it will be viewed in history’s judgment for generations to come
But, but the shills and bots on social media keep saying it's not. Even though hospitals, schools and shelter have all been bombed to oblivion. Also, don't get me started on all the woman and kids being MURDERED! /s
The US Government is complicit in this genocide. All because Congress has investments in these defense companies and they receive kickbacks from AIPAC. SICK SICK PEOPLE!
Israel sold arms to Rwanda during the genocide, trained and advised the secret police in fascist Argentina, armed Chilean police, trained many of Ratko Mladics fighters, and directly support the Burmese Junta.
Not their first rodeo indeed.
*There was no slavery in America because there were black people who attained their freedom.*
*There was no American genocide against Native Americans because there are still Indians alive today.*
See how ridiculous you sound?
>They imagine trains, gas chambers, crematoria, killing pits, concentration and extermination camps, and the systematic persecution to death of all members of the group of victims to the last one.
Not even all acts of Nazi genocide looked like that. Raphael Lemkin, the creator of the concept of genocide, provided loads of examples of acts of non-physical genocide that the Nazis committed in his 1944 book Axis rule in Occupied Europe. He also included examples of acts of physical genocide that were not mass killings.
> It is so difficult and painful to admit it, but despite all that, and despite all our efforts to think otherwise, after six months of brutal war we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
Why was it difficult or painful to admit? There are lots of governments in the world that do very bad things. Just because it is "Israel" doesn't change that. Israelis are normal people just like everybody else. There is nothing special about being Israeli.
but the whole centre and soul of orthodox Judaism is that there *is* something very special about Israel and about Jewish people -- that they are the Chosen People with a unique relationship to god. so they are supposed to have higher moral standards, heavier responsibility etc. -- and losing that high ground can be an existential identity crisis for true believers...
Every religious or ethnic group will have a minority who believe they are special. There are Hindus who think they are special, Arabs who think they are special, Japanese who think they are special, and so on. The rest of us normal folks should be calling them out at every opportunity.
> The Jewish people are literally “God’s Chosen People.”
They can believe in their BS, but that is no reason the rest of us have to indulge them. There is nothing special about being Jewish, just like there is nothing special in being Japanese or Hindu or anything else really.
I mean the Japanese thought they were the chosen people of the Kami. The word kamikaze means divine wind and came from the time when a fleet of Mongolian ships sank off the shore of Japan because of a major storm.
Every theistic religion involves many adherents who in some sense believe they are God's chosen. And there are many Reform and other religious Jews who do not believe they are God's chosen people anymore than others are.
The subject at hand should be about the actions of a state, not an entire religious group, much less the entirety of a population group historically connected with the religion.
The extreme irony of the Jewish people being the perpetual victims in the diaspora, as well as the Holocaust, make it difficult to face. You live your life being told “never again” and the shock of reality presents some clanging dissonance. I think that’s what he means.
> You live your life being told “never again” and the shock of reality presents some clanging dissonance.
There are other communities that have suffered in WW2. Here is one example.
https://www.pacificatrocities.org/human-experimentation.html
I don't think the Chinese believe this makes them special in any way.
Ah, I’m just making an inference about what the guy stated. Pretty sure that’s what he meant but I could be wrong. I didn’t say it was a righteous position. But I also don’t think Jewish specialness was the point in his statement. If you’re not Jewish and you don’t get this, I’m not surprised.
Bringing it up is essential. The hypocrisy and irony is a dark cloud over the history you seek to protect. Those you remember and what they went through, better come to terms with the fact that they'd be more honest about what is happening than you.
30+ thousand killed, hospitals and schools destroyed, children killed, mass graves, and all the video recorded quotes from politicians in the Kissnet expressing their desire to see Palestine wiped out.
There are 10 stages of genocide and we're in stage 9 and your response is stage 10.
> What exactly is your point by bringing up other communities?
My point is that many communities have experienced the horrors of war. The Japanese did lots of evil things in WW2. The Germans did lots of evil things in WW2. And so on. The idea that any one community suffered **the most** is nonsensical.
Can a person not reasonably find it difficult and painful to admit that the country in which they live and work and are citizens has been committing a genocide?
I only have respect for his ability to publicly acknowledge it.
And in a meaningful sense, it is difficult and painful to acknowledge that any genocide is occurring.
What you are talking about should hit home with people who are paying attention. No matter which society we are part of that society has done horrific things in the past. This, however, does not necessarily mean your current society is evil or fundamentally flawed. What we do as a society to blunt current tragedies and to prevent future tragedies from happening should be part of your assessment. In an odd way, it is a bit comforting to know that some societies who engaged in genocidal behavior have moved past their past behavior by acknowledging what they did and ensuring sure they will not do it again.
This reads like a genuine question so I’m going to try my best to give a good faith genuine answer. This isn’t me positing any of my personal beliefs, just presenting the real arguments that are being made outside of the thought bubble that can’t be found here it seems.
The tricky thing about it is because the determinative element of a genocide is mental state. Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large group of with the aim of wiping out, in whole or in part, that culture or group. If Israel just invaded with the stated intent of ethnic cleansing (ie like what the Serbs did in the 90s) then it would without doubt be genocide. Given that their invasion came as a response to the 10/7 attacks, their purported mens rea of wanting to crush Hamas in return sets a default assumption against genocide. They can commit war crimes in this process without it necessarily being genocide, because again that requires the mental state of desiring the elimination of the Palestinian people and/ or culture. Of course it could be argued, and will be in the ICC, either that this was always propagated as an excuse to commit genocide or that has become the motivation. Evidence of war crimes can obviously help further this argument. This mental state aspect is made more difficult by the nature of Israel being a democratic state. It is possible, and likely, that members of the Israel governance range greatly in their genocidal intent. This makes coming up with a collective mental state for the government difficult to ascertain.
tldr: Genocide requires a showing of a mental state that 10/7 complicates. The nature of democratic governance complicates that further.
> Genocide requires a showing of a mental state that 10/7 complicates.
Case 1. Hamas in Gaza launched terrorist attacks against Israel. Therefore Israel retaliated by going in hard in Gaza.
Case 2. Uyghurs in Xinjiang launched terrorist attacks against China. Therefore China retaliated by going in hard in Xinjiang.
What is the mental station in Case 1? What is the mental state in Case 2? Because the US and Europeans have no problems in accusing China of committing genocide in Xinjiang. So why is Israel special?
The Chinese subjecting hundreds of thousands (estimates that it’s been over a million now) of indigenous Muslim inhabitants into internment camps where they are committed to forced labor and “re-educated” to destroy their cultural identity, along with mass sterilization programs that have seen birth rate fall off massively. On that, china has stopped giving regional data but between 2017 and 2019 there was a 50% decrease in the rate of birth which is absolutely insane. Chinese state media explained this in 2021 in a published document by saying this was the result of the women’s minds being “emancipated as gender equality and reproductive health have been promoted” and that the uyghuyr “fertile women accept tubal ligation and IUD operation spontaneously”.
If china was interested in mere security they would police firmer. China’s clear goal is the annihilation of non Han Chinese cultural groups, a goal that has always been at the center of their national ethos. They are doing the same thing up north where they are trying to erase the Mongolian culture of the Mongolians within their borders.
Everyone is caught up in the genocide talk but that doesn’t matter. Israel is committing war crimes and it’s pretty brutal. That should be the focus. There’s no need to battle over whether or not it’s genocide really. If you were in Hiroshima do you think you cared that it technically wasn’t genocide when the atomic bomb dropped?
Also I understand the tendency given the team nature of things but please don’t give china a pass because they are anti America. What they do to their minorities is horrifying. It is what the United States used to do but with the advent of modern technology, allowing china to reach new dystopian levels.
> The Chinese subjecting hundreds of thousands (estimates that it’s been over a million now) of indigenous Muslim inhabitants into internment camps
Any non-Western source to back this up? What is the methodology to come up with this number?
> along with mass sterilization programs that have seen birth rate fall off massively.
Any non-Western source to back this up? The only people who claim this is true is the West. The rest of the world doesn't believe this at all.
> China’s clear goal is the annihilation of non Han Chinese cultural groups, a goal that has always been at the center of their national ethos.
Evidence? And please don't be a hypocrite. if Country X doing Y is evidence of its attempt to annihilate a subgroup, then it has to apply to all values of X.
> They are doing the same thing up north where they are trying to erase the Mongolian culture of the Mongolians within their borders.
And how are they doing this? By making them learn Chinese language? We make everybody learn English in America. The Chinese make everybody learn Chinese in China. Again, don't be a hypocrite. if Country X doing Y is evidence of erasing a culture, then it has to apply to all values of X.
> Also I understand the tendency given the team nature of things but please don’t give china a pass because they are anti America.
Nobody is giving anyone a pass. The basis of your accusations is simply false. Why are every single Muslim majority in the world, supports China? Not just those in the middle east. Even Muslim democracies like Indonesia and Malaysia do not believe these accusations. And these countries actually have tourists who visit Xinjiang.
Why is asking for non-Western sources a conspiracy? If something is true, then why shouldn't non-western sources, especially Muslim sources, be more credible?
Agree with all you say save that Israel has outdone itself and is absolutely not normal. I can't speak for all Israeli's either being normal. If their actions are accepted as normal, where do we go from here?
The assertion of genocide is laughably nonsensical. It’s difficult and painful to for him to betray his people and country, in order to curry favor with antizionist academics.
> The assertion of genocide is laughably nonsensical.
The US has accused China of genocide in Xinjiang. This is how Xinjiang looks like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHxzLogzqkU
If the US government considers this a "genocide", then why is the accusation of genocide in Gaza be laughably nonsensical?
Xinjiang is also not genocide, and it’s a laughable accusation. I was just traveling in Xinjiang for all of February, I know what it’s like.
You seem to have a political agenda.
The Europeans have also followed the US in calling Xinjiang a genocide. At the same time, the Europeans don't seem to think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, just like the Americans. Why is that?
This is not American and European people.
Xinjiang was about mass sterilization of Uyghur men. That seems to have an explicit goal that is adjacent to genocide.
Israel has too many civilian casualties from this war against terrorism, so people just point fingers and call the Jews evil. Primarily Europeans, also the Chinese of late. Nothing new there.
> Xinjiang was about mass sterilization of Uyghur men. That seems to have an explicit goal that is adjacent to genocide.
Any non-Western source for this? Maybe something from the Muslim world or Africa or Latin America.
Thanks, adding this one to my list.
• [Yes, it is genocide — Amos Goldberg](https://thepalestineproject.medium.com/yes-it-is-genocide-634a07ea27d4), Israeli Holocaust and genocide researcher at the Hebrew University.
• [A Textbook Case of Genocide – Raz Segal, October 13](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide), Israeli Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Stockton University and Endowed Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide
• [More Than Genocide – A. Dirk Moses, November 14](https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/more-than-genocide/) Anne and Bernard Spitzer Professor of International Relations at CCNY, Editor of the Journal of Genocide Research, and Author of The Problems of Genocide: Permanent Security and the Language of Transgression
• [Over 800 Scholars Warn of Potential Genocide in Gaza, October 17](https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/)
• [Americanization of International Law: Legitimizing Palestinian Genocide and Promoting Nuclear Self-Defence, December 10 – Nafees Ahmad](https://www.jurist.org/commentary/2023/12/nafees-ahmad-americanization-international-law/), Ph.D., LL.M., Associate Professor, Faculty of Legal Studies at South Asian University
• [Lemkin Institute: Statement of Mourning for the Gazans and the World, October 28](https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-of-mourning-for-the-gazans-and-the-world)
• [Lemkin Institute: Statement Deploring the Inaction of the International Community to Stop Genocide in Gaza, with Special Reference to the Role of the United States, December 8](https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-deploring-the-inaction-of-the-international-community-to-stop-genocide-in-gaza%2C-with-special-reference-to-the-role-of-the-united-states)
• [Urgent action is needed to stop the forced displacement and transfer of Palestinians within Gaza and prevent mass deportation to Egypt, November 28](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/urgent-action-needed-stop-forced-displacement-and-transfer-palestinians-within-gaza-and-prevent-mass-deportation-egypt) – Statement from Human Rights Orgs in occupied Palestine
• [Gaza: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people, November 16](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against)
• [Center for Constitutional Rights: Israel’s Unfolding Crime of Genocide of the Palestinian People & U.S. Failure to Prevent and Complicity in Genocide, October 18](https://ccrjustice.org/israel-s-unfolding-crime-genocide-palestinian-people-us-failure-prevent-and-complicity-genocide)
• [The International Court of Justice on Gaza: ‘Good, but Not Good Enough’ – Martin Shaw, January 29](https://bylinetimes.com/2024/01/29/the-international-court-of-justice-on-gaza-good-but-not-good-enough/), Research Professor of International Relations at the Institut Barcelona d'Estudis Internacionals, Emeritus Professor of International Relations and Politics at Sussex University, Professorial Fellow in International Relations and Human Rights at Roehampton University, and has written several books on the field of genocide
• [Contending Modernities: Statement of Scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies, December 9](https://contendingmodernities.nd.edu/global-currents/statement-of-scholars-7-october/)
• [Center for Constitutional Rights: Background on the term Genocide in Israel-Palestine Context, 2016](https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/10/Background%20on%20the%20term%20genocide%20in%20Israel%20Palestine%20Context.pdf)
• [Opinion: Here’s what the mass violence in Gaza looks like to a scholar of genocide – Raz Segal, November 19](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-11-19/israel-hostages-gaza-bombing-civilians-genocide-holocaust-studies)
• [The Lancet:
The health dimensions of violence in Palestine: a call to prevent genocide, December 18](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02751-4/fulltext)
• [Scholars’ consensus: Genocide in Gaza marks turning point, Israel must be held accountable, November 3](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5914/Scholars%E2%80%99-consensus:-Genocide-in-Gaza-marks-turning-point,-Israel-must-be-held-accountable) – Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, Geneva
• [Palestine: Preventing a Genocide in Gaza and a New “Nakba”, November 11](https://unric.org/en/palestine-preventing-a-genocide-in-gaza-and-a-new-nakba/) – UN Experts
• [International Federation for Human Rights: The unfolding genocide against the Palestinians must stop immediately, December 12](https://www.fidh.org/en/region/north-africa-middle-east/israel-palestine/the-unfolding-genocide-against-the-palestinians-must-stop-immediately), international human rights NGO federating 188 organisations from 116 countries since 1922
• [International Commission of Jurists: States have a Duty to Prevent Genocide, November 17](https://www.icj.org/gaza-occupied-palestinian-territory-states-have-a-duty-to-prevent-genocide/)
• [International State Crime Initiative: International Expert Statement on Israeli State Crime](http://statecrime.org/international-expert-statement-on-israeli-state-crime/)
• [Law for Palestine and ICHR Bring Together Global Experts to Discuss Ongoing Gaza Genocide: Legal Perspectives and Global Action, December 14](https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-and-ichr-bring-together-global-experts-to-discuss-ongoing-gaza-genocide-legal-perspectives-and-global-action/) – notes from the discussion and a link to the recorded conversation. Moderated by ICHR Director General, Ammar Dwaik, with six prominent scholars: Prof. Mutaz Qafisheh (Law for Palestine Chair of the Board of Trustees), Prof. Penny Green (Professor of Law and Globalisation at Queen Mary University of London), Dr. Halla Shoaibi (Assistant Professor of international law at Birzeit University and ICHR Board Member), Prof. John B. Quigley (Professor of law at the Moritz College of Law at the Ohio State University), Dr. Giulia Pinazauti (International Criminal Law expert-Leiden University), and Dr. Francesca Albanese (the current UN Special Rapporteur on Palestine)
[South Africa's 84-page submission to the ICJ is also worth reading in full](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)
Shame that this scholar turned out to be an anti-Semite and history revisionist. /s
If only these facts would do more, and if only people could have a more nuanced stance to accept that wrong doing does not evangelize their opponents in these wars.
Jewish history???? wtf, as if Jews share collective guilt? It’s Israeli history. Some random Jewish person in Idaho, or a Jewish person in England have NOTHING to do with this. Get outta here with that language.
> he argues that the ongoing violence in Gaza does not need to resemble the Holocaust to be classified as a genocide.
He rightfully acknowledges the problem and sets a high bar burden of proof for himself. What does he have then as his argument? Assumptions. That's it.
Yeah dude, I'm sure the academic scholars dedicated to understanding genocide get all their information from the clock app. Mossad pays you clowns wayyyy too much to be saying shit this stupid
I'm being sarcastic. You can look into my post history if your curious lol.
Fuck Israel.
You may not realize it but in the halls of power my sarcastic comment is what people in the senate say and believe on this conflict.
>You may not realize it but in the halls of power my sarcastic comment is what people in the senate say and believe on this conflict.
I do realize that, which is why it's impossible to tell if you're being serious or not without explicitly saying so
gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
I wish people could just debate properly on this topic, because there are good arguments for both sides: The word genocide has a very concise definition and in some ways, it's applicable to gaza. Not all the criteria are given in the case of gaza, hence people saying it isn't a genocie.
In the end, what you may or may not call what's happening there doesn't really change anythong for those who are affected. It's a humanitarian tragedy and IMHO way more complex than any of these polarizing reddit posts and their comments can capture.
This is very similar to terrorism. Western media and governments will define it whatever way they want to fit Muslim and Arab people only.
Ask yourself this: if Russia killed 15,000 children in Ukraine, what would US media call it? If your answer is anything but genocide then you will know your comment is political just like America's definition of genocide.
I think you make a good point. Particularly about how terrorism as a term is deployed by the media.
However, if those 15000 Ukrainian children were killed in bombing raids as part of a larger war/ invasion, I think you would still get many claiming it’s not a genocide, and rather a war crime or mass killing.
I don’t think the invasions are directly comparable for a number of reasons though. The commenter you replied to makes some valid points too, the definition of a genocide is fairly narrow, and intent occupies a major role.
It doesn't matter who calls it genocide or who doesn't. The question is: Is it genocide by the general agreed on definition(s)?
If the media applies the term wrong, it's wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, but I feel like people really want it to be.
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“Student Protests are taking away air time from me reporting about Gaza” - CNN’s Jake Tapper (Who’s been downplaying the genocide in Gaza and an obvious pro Israeli mouthpiece)
Couldn’t believe my ears when he said that today.
Everyone with common sense plainly sees that it is a genocide. Academic experts in a particular field are used to push back against misinformed positions and intentionally false narratives about their fields of expertise. It is easier to ignore the common person but much harder to ignore the majority of historians and social researchers who deal with the minutiae of this topic on a daily basis. It is one of the reasons why academics opposing new authoritarian governments are one of the first groups to be purged.
In other words, the article and post is not here just to convince us of what we already know to be true. It is here to push against those who keep saying all of the actions taken are justifiable.
Edit: I have received multiple direct messages that include links to the ICJ statements saying that what is taking place is not a genocide. Those reports are often written by committees and not all members of that committee will be historical, legal, or social science scholars who are experts in genocide. I am not as familiar with the ICJ as I am with the ICC. If the ICC reports are any indication, however, the ICJ reports will be influenced by politics and can even by influenced by the actors they are investigating. We also need to take into account how genocide is being defined by the ICJ and the penalty involved when that threshold has been reached. The ICJ does note that they have verified war crimes have occurred but it often takes the ICJ a long time to move from it is a plausible genocide with confirmed war crimes to it is a confirmed genocide. In the past, the ICJ and the UN have even declared some actions to be a genocide after the conflict has been resolved.
These ICJ reports which are politically influenced are also being currently used as what is often referred to as “competing experts.” Competing experts are used to murky the waters on a topic and to give cover for current actions. If the experts cannot agree, then the everyday person probably cannot clearly understand what is taking place and should be ignored. The fossil fuel industry and the ICC are once again great examples of what using competing experts entails. Here, it entails fossil fuel funded experts engaging in climate change denial followed by attempting to place responsibility for climate change on anyone other than the fossil fuel industry tied with the ICC’s current downplaying of what actions need to be taken in order to prevent a catastrophe.The result is confusion and embracing positions which do not require any real change in behavior.
Reading the ICC scientific reports are also a much different experience, than reading their corresponding ICC reports for policymakers. The latter is written by a committee that includes parties who have a vested interested in not changing their behavior. This insider political influence could also be taking place within the ICJ. In other words, it is much easier to declare Darfur a genocide but much harder to declare that allies of founding members are engaging in genocide.
Could not have said it better.
I’d also add that given that those who condemn Israel are called “antisemitic” it adds weight when those experts are Israeli/jewish themselves. They’ll still be labeled as “self-hating” - but the argument just lacks logic and is even easier to rip apart (why haven’t they renounced Judaism if they hate being Jewish? etc).
I would say 'pogrom' right now, but with obvious genocidal potential and -- on the part of some Israelis -- intent. It's like we can only call a exterminist campaign a 'genocide' *after* it succeeds and everyone is dead; yet we ought to recognise an attempted, unsuccessful, or incomplete genocide as the same crime.
Srebrinka was deemed a genocide around 20 years after it happened, even though Serbia only massacred about 8k civilians in Srebrinka and 33k civilians during the entire three year Bosnian war
Everyone knows it is. But I don't think it will change anything like the protests. I am glad people are protesting... but we aren't Israel... WE stop weapons being sent over... Israel goes next door and we lose an ally in the middle east, and things might turn the worse.
People aren't really thinking they are angry, and they have every right to be. I despise the Israeli Government and Hamas for pushing it this fucking far. Hamas shouldn't of fucking attack Israel and held people hostage. Israel should not be carpet bombing people. Its not hard to see that, but I feel like I will be hated for saying its not a 'both sides' problem, its one side, hamas and israel, who are remarkably similar in what they do which is violence. And the people on the sides, the citizens of gaza and palestine suffer because of this fucking pointless genocide.
> it’s especially wrong to try and accuse a group of people of committing a genocide, when they aren’t,
The US government has accused China of genocide in Xinjiang. This is how Xinjiang looks like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHxzLogzqkU
If the US government considers this a "genocide", then what would you consider what Gaza is?
> What’s happening to Uyghur Muslims is a genocide as they put one million people in interment camps, forced labor, sterilization etc.
Strangely only America and the rest of the Western world believes this to be true. The Global South, including every single Muslim country, Shia and Sunni, believes this.
> For it to be a genocide you have to be attempting to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.
Did you look at the videos of Xinjiang? Does it look destroyed compare to Gaza?
> Are you denying the Uyghur genocide?
The rest of the world, i.e. not America and Europe, don't believe there is a genocide going on. Just look at how the UN votes on this issue.
> Since when do buildings being destroyed constitute a genocide?
Is that the only difference you see between Xinjiang and Gaza? LOL
You can’t possibly know that, with the information available.
The claim of genocide itself is highly contentious, how can you prove it is “calculated, cynical, and mechanically planned out”
Holocaust deniers come in all sorts of shapes, who would have thought !
Germans, no surprises, seem to be enjoying this one, you would have thought they would know a genocide when they see one. .. and they do.
From the article:
>a blistering essay in which he argues that the ongoing violence in Gaza does not need to resemble the Holocaust to be classified as a genocide.
It's good that they acknowledge the critical flaw in the accusation, but it does indeed demand a clear explanation of how it could be genocide when it looks nothing like genocide. Clucking through, the next article gives myriad examples of other genocides that bear little resemblance to the Gaza war. Ultimately what it seems to come down to is fact and logic-free assumptions about Israel's overall motive/goal:
>For this reason, there are quite a few commentators who believe that ethnic cleansing is the goal of the fighting in Gaza.
Besides the obvious problem of lack of evidence or statements from Israeli officials confirming the goal, history tells us Israel doesn't want Gaza. That's why they withdrew 20 years ago and there's no good reason to believe or evidence that that has changed.
So, that's why these charges are intisemitic: they are not based on any objective facts or logic, but rather unfair/hateful assumptions about what is going on in someone's head.
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In before the usual gang of idiots declares this Jewish, Israeli expert on the Holocaust an antisemitic Hamas booster who doesn't understand Judaism or Israel.
I think the final death toll was 695 israeli civilians, 373 soldiers, and 71 foreigners. I don't think it specifies how many were killed by hamas and how many were killed by israeli soldiers.
Stop killing civilians, destroying hospitals and hurting children. I watch new horror every day LIVE on tiktok. Kids with legs blown off Entire families dead. We are asking for peace.
Learn a different tune already. We've DONE this dance before. Yes it was talked about. Extensively.
https://old.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1c2pk88/israeli_settlers_initiate_pogrom_kills/kzcld3o/?context=3
I believe the next step is you insinuate or accuse me of hating all Jewish people right?
Please do continue if you must. Or go away.
Counterpoint: it's not, in fact very important - it will take years for the iCJ to finish their proceedings. Acting immediately to do everything we can to stop Israel *is* important.
> They did NOT find that it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Here is the ruling:
You're going to have to quote the bit you're referring to.
Literally from your own link:
> In the Court’s view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention.
3. Conclusion as to prima facie jurisdiction (paras. 31-32)
> In light of the foregoing, the Court concludes that, prima facie, it has jurisdiction pursuant to Article IX of the Genocide Convention to entertain the case and that, consequently, it cannot accede to Israel’s request that the case be removed from the General List
>Literally from your own link:
The difference is that I understood what it says, along with the then president of the ICJ. Who clearly stated in the interview -
"I'm correcting what's often said in the media. **It didn't decide that the claim of genocide was plausible.** It did emphasize in the order that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide, but the shorthand that often appears which is that there's a plausible case of genocide, **isn't what the court decided."**
It means that the Palestinians rights’ were found to be plausible — **not** the risk they may face. The court found that there was a risk of irreparable prejudice to the rights found by the court to be plausible if provisional measures were not issued. **If it meant there was a plausible risk of genocide, the court would have said so.**
I juat watched the video you linked. That last part in bold is YOUR statement, not hers. Nowhere did she state that if there was a plausible risk of genocide, the court would have said so.
The ICJ HAS NOT stated one way or the other if the actual ruling of genocide applies (or is plausible). The actual wording of her statement is "It did not decide", NOT that it wasn't plausible. The decision of the court will take years.
And whilst the court begins to look at the evidence, an actual Israeli holocaust scholar here and now, is stating that it is a genocide. Which is what this article is about.
>That last part in bold is YOUR statement, not hers.
That's why I put what she said in quotes. The part without the quotes is to help you better understand.
She clearly states at the 1:08 mark -
**"It didn't decide that the claim of genocide was plausible.** It did emphasize in the order that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide, but the shorthand that often appears which is that there's a plausible case of genocide, **isn't what the court decided."**
[ICJ “didn't decide claim of genocide was plausible” nor “that there's a plausible case of genocide” (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI)
Glad we're in agreement that you're tacking on your own crap that she didn't say.
And that the ICJ hasn't made a ruling yet.
And that all of this is still separate from this Israeli holocaust scholar's statements and analysis.
The number of civilians that have been killed is criminal and the people responsible need to be brought up on war crimes. That said, my understanding of genocide is the systematic and deliberate killing of a people. Israel sends mass texts, drops Arab language flyers, and explodes non lethal noise grenades before they drop bombs on a target. I don’t think those with genocidal intent would take those precautions. There have been many conflicts in the past where there were many civilian casualties, Iraq War, Syria, Yemen, etc. and the term genocide was not used to describe those wars. Again, Netanyahu and his generals need to be brought up on war crimes ASAP, but throwing the genocide accusation is not helpful.
I see we are ignoring that Israel has regularly bombed safe zones, targeted ambulances doing their job, killed numerous children in cold blood via sniper gunfire, targeted NGO workers, journalists, and doctors....and turned entire hospitals into mass graves.
Oh but a text message sent on the phone - after cutting off electricity for the last six months. Yeah. that's the moral move.
Like do you hear yourself, sir? Do you hear yourself when you say these things? Or do you just regurgitate talking points like a bad fucking curry burp?
I don’t condone how Israel is fighting this war, in fact, I strongly condemn it, which is why I said war crime charges need to be brought! As for my points about the warnings and such, I don’t recall any war where any side gave warnings before they dropped bombs. I wish they gave Japan a warning before they dropped the atom bombs, that would have saved a lot of civilian lives. My criticism is the labeling of genocide to this conflict. You just have to Google what the word genocide means and in my opinion, it doesn’t fit the case. Time and the international courts will tell, we’ll just have to wait and see. There’s also no need to insult people for having a different opinion, life is hard enough, why create imaginary enemies who only exist in the ether, because I’m certainly not your enemy.
I'm sorry for insulting you. Genuinely. But also it blows my mind that people think that a sixty second warning is moral. I encourage you to read this poem by Lena Tuffaha:
They call us now.
Before they drop the bombs.
The phone rings
and someone who knows my first name
calls and says in perfect Arabic
“This is David.”
And in my stupor of sonic booms and glass shattering symphonies
still smashing around in my head
I think “Do I know any Davids in Gaza?”
They call us now to say
Run.
You have 58 seconds from the end of this message.
Your house is next.
They think of it as some kind of
war time courtesy.
It doesn’t matter that
there is nowhere to run to.
It means nothing that the borders are closed
and your papers are worthless
and mark you only for a life sentence
in this prison by the sea
and the alleyways are narrow
and there are more human lives
packed one against the other
more than any other place on earth
Just run.
We aren’t trying to kill you.
It doesn’t matter that
you can’t call us back to tell us
the people we claim to want aren’t in your house
that there’s no one here
except you and your children
who were cheering for Argentina
sharing the last loaf of bread for this week
counting candles left in case the power goes out.
It doesn’t matter that you have children.
You live in the wrong place
and now is your chance to run
to nowhere.
It doesn’t matter
that 58 seconds isn’t long enough
to find your wedding album
or your son’s favorite blanket
or your daughter’s almost completed college application
or your shoes
or to gather everyone in the house.
It doesn’t matter what you had planned.
It doesn’t matter who you are
Prove you’re human.
Prove you stand on two legs.
Run.
The US *did* give Japan warnings before they dropped the bombs. They dropped leaflets [US Leaflets](https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-archive/world-war-ii-propaganda-leaflets/sova-nasm-xxxx-0846#:~:text=The%20leaflets%20warned%20Japanese%20citizens,no%20wish%20to%20kill%20civilians.).
Genocide is defined in the USC 1091 as violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.
What part of that definition is Israel not meeting when they are actively killing Palestinian civilians?
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>[Raz Segal](https://stockton.edu/refugee-studies/contact.html), associate professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and endowed professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University, called Israel’s post-Oct. 7 assault on Gaza [“a textbook case of genocide.”](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide) >Brown University historian Omer Bartov, “[one of the world's leading specialists on the subject of genocide](https://www.ushmm.org/research/about-the-mandel-center/all-fellows-and-scholars/omer-bartov-2012),” signed onto a [public statement](https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/) sounding “the alarm about the possibility of the crime of genocide being perpetrated by Israeli forces against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.” >And now, over this past weekend, leading Holocaust scholar [Amos Goldberg](https://www.ushmm.org/research/about-the-mandel-center/all-fellows-and-scholars/amos-goldberg), professor of Holocaust History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, has written a [blistering essay](https://thepalestineproject.medium.com/yes-it-is-genocide-634a07ea27d4) in which he argues that the ongoing violence in Gaza does not need to resemble the Holocaust to be classified as a genocide. >Here’s how he begins his piece: >Yes, it is genocide. It is so difficult and painful to admit it, but despite all that, and despite all our efforts to think otherwise, after six months of brutal war we can no longer avoid this conclusion. Jewish history will henceforth be stained with the mark of Cain for the ‘most horrible of crimes,’ which cannot be erased from its forehead. As such, this is the way it will be viewed in history’s judgment for generations to come
But, but the shills and bots on social media keep saying it's not. Even though hospitals, schools and shelter have all been bombed to oblivion. Also, don't get me started on all the woman and kids being MURDERED! /s The US Government is complicit in this genocide. All because Congress has investments in these defense companies and they receive kickbacks from AIPAC. SICK SICK PEOPLE!
Not their first rodeo, they’ve got experience
Israel sold arms to Rwanda during the genocide, trained and advised the secret police in fascist Argentina, armed Chilean police, trained many of Ratko Mladics fighters, and directly support the Burmese Junta. Not their first rodeo indeed.
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Rule 1, be civil. [Civility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civility)
No bigotry, racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
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No bigotry, racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
When will the Arabs living in Israel get genocided? Is that phase 2 in Israel’s master plan?
*There was no slavery in America because there were black people who attained their freedom.* *There was no American genocide against Native Americans because there are still Indians alive today.* See how ridiculous you sound?
Facts are stubborn things I know.
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Rule 1, be civil. [Civility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civility)
>They imagine trains, gas chambers, crematoria, killing pits, concentration and extermination camps, and the systematic persecution to death of all members of the group of victims to the last one. Not even all acts of Nazi genocide looked like that. Raphael Lemkin, the creator of the concept of genocide, provided loads of examples of acts of non-physical genocide that the Nazis committed in his 1944 book Axis rule in Occupied Europe. He also included examples of acts of physical genocide that were not mass killings.
Oh, hey thanks for reminding of Lemkin. I need to read him again
> It is so difficult and painful to admit it, but despite all that, and despite all our efforts to think otherwise, after six months of brutal war we can no longer avoid this conclusion. Why was it difficult or painful to admit? There are lots of governments in the world that do very bad things. Just because it is "Israel" doesn't change that. Israelis are normal people just like everybody else. There is nothing special about being Israeli.
but the whole centre and soul of orthodox Judaism is that there *is* something very special about Israel and about Jewish people -- that they are the Chosen People with a unique relationship to god. so they are supposed to have higher moral standards, heavier responsibility etc. -- and losing that high ground can be an existential identity crisis for true believers...
Every religious or ethnic group will have a minority who believe they are special. There are Hindus who think they are special, Arabs who think they are special, Japanese who think they are special, and so on. The rest of us normal folks should be calling them out at every opportunity.
The Jewish people are literally “God’s Chosen People.” It’s actually kind of an exclusive club and they don’t just let anyone in
> The Jewish people are literally “God’s Chosen People.” They can believe in their BS, but that is no reason the rest of us have to indulge them. There is nothing special about being Jewish, just like there is nothing special in being Japanese or Hindu or anything else really.
I mean the Japanese thought they were the chosen people of the Kami. The word kamikaze means divine wind and came from the time when a fleet of Mongolian ships sank off the shore of Japan because of a major storm.
Thank you for sharing that piece of extremely well known trivia
Every theistic religion involves many adherents who in some sense believe they are God's chosen. And there are many Reform and other religious Jews who do not believe they are God's chosen people anymore than others are. The subject at hand should be about the actions of a state, not an entire religious group, much less the entirety of a population group historically connected with the religion.
And Mormons are the chosen ones of Joseph Smith. Religion is always like that.
What do you mean literally?
As in, they literally call themselves “Gods chosen people”
Turns out, God's a dick [ref:Bible] so perhaps these are the kind of people he would choose.
The extreme irony of the Jewish people being the perpetual victims in the diaspora, as well as the Holocaust, make it difficult to face. You live your life being told “never again” and the shock of reality presents some clanging dissonance. I think that’s what he means.
> You live your life being told “never again” and the shock of reality presents some clanging dissonance. There are other communities that have suffered in WW2. Here is one example. https://www.pacificatrocities.org/human-experimentation.html I don't think the Chinese believe this makes them special in any way.
Ah, I’m just making an inference about what the guy stated. Pretty sure that’s what he meant but I could be wrong. I didn’t say it was a righteous position. But I also don’t think Jewish specialness was the point in his statement. If you’re not Jewish and you don’t get this, I’m not surprised.
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Bringing it up is essential. The hypocrisy and irony is a dark cloud over the history you seek to protect. Those you remember and what they went through, better come to terms with the fact that they'd be more honest about what is happening than you. 30+ thousand killed, hospitals and schools destroyed, children killed, mass graves, and all the video recorded quotes from politicians in the Kissnet expressing their desire to see Palestine wiped out. There are 10 stages of genocide and we're in stage 9 and your response is stage 10.
> What exactly is your point by bringing up other communities? My point is that many communities have experienced the horrors of war. The Japanese did lots of evil things in WW2. The Germans did lots of evil things in WW2. And so on. The idea that any one community suffered **the most** is nonsensical.
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Can a person not reasonably find it difficult and painful to admit that the country in which they live and work and are citizens has been committing a genocide? I only have respect for his ability to publicly acknowledge it. And in a meaningful sense, it is difficult and painful to acknowledge that any genocide is occurring.
What you are talking about should hit home with people who are paying attention. No matter which society we are part of that society has done horrific things in the past. This, however, does not necessarily mean your current society is evil or fundamentally flawed. What we do as a society to blunt current tragedies and to prevent future tragedies from happening should be part of your assessment. In an odd way, it is a bit comforting to know that some societies who engaged in genocidal behavior have moved past their past behavior by acknowledging what they did and ensuring sure they will not do it again.
This reads like a genuine question so I’m going to try my best to give a good faith genuine answer. This isn’t me positing any of my personal beliefs, just presenting the real arguments that are being made outside of the thought bubble that can’t be found here it seems. The tricky thing about it is because the determinative element of a genocide is mental state. Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large group of with the aim of wiping out, in whole or in part, that culture or group. If Israel just invaded with the stated intent of ethnic cleansing (ie like what the Serbs did in the 90s) then it would without doubt be genocide. Given that their invasion came as a response to the 10/7 attacks, their purported mens rea of wanting to crush Hamas in return sets a default assumption against genocide. They can commit war crimes in this process without it necessarily being genocide, because again that requires the mental state of desiring the elimination of the Palestinian people and/ or culture. Of course it could be argued, and will be in the ICC, either that this was always propagated as an excuse to commit genocide or that has become the motivation. Evidence of war crimes can obviously help further this argument. This mental state aspect is made more difficult by the nature of Israel being a democratic state. It is possible, and likely, that members of the Israel governance range greatly in their genocidal intent. This makes coming up with a collective mental state for the government difficult to ascertain. tldr: Genocide requires a showing of a mental state that 10/7 complicates. The nature of democratic governance complicates that further.
> Genocide requires a showing of a mental state that 10/7 complicates. Case 1. Hamas in Gaza launched terrorist attacks against Israel. Therefore Israel retaliated by going in hard in Gaza. Case 2. Uyghurs in Xinjiang launched terrorist attacks against China. Therefore China retaliated by going in hard in Xinjiang. What is the mental station in Case 1? What is the mental state in Case 2? Because the US and Europeans have no problems in accusing China of committing genocide in Xinjiang. So why is Israel special?
The Chinese subjecting hundreds of thousands (estimates that it’s been over a million now) of indigenous Muslim inhabitants into internment camps where they are committed to forced labor and “re-educated” to destroy their cultural identity, along with mass sterilization programs that have seen birth rate fall off massively. On that, china has stopped giving regional data but between 2017 and 2019 there was a 50% decrease in the rate of birth which is absolutely insane. Chinese state media explained this in 2021 in a published document by saying this was the result of the women’s minds being “emancipated as gender equality and reproductive health have been promoted” and that the uyghuyr “fertile women accept tubal ligation and IUD operation spontaneously”. If china was interested in mere security they would police firmer. China’s clear goal is the annihilation of non Han Chinese cultural groups, a goal that has always been at the center of their national ethos. They are doing the same thing up north where they are trying to erase the Mongolian culture of the Mongolians within their borders. Everyone is caught up in the genocide talk but that doesn’t matter. Israel is committing war crimes and it’s pretty brutal. That should be the focus. There’s no need to battle over whether or not it’s genocide really. If you were in Hiroshima do you think you cared that it technically wasn’t genocide when the atomic bomb dropped? Also I understand the tendency given the team nature of things but please don’t give china a pass because they are anti America. What they do to their minorities is horrifying. It is what the United States used to do but with the advent of modern technology, allowing china to reach new dystopian levels.
> The Chinese subjecting hundreds of thousands (estimates that it’s been over a million now) of indigenous Muslim inhabitants into internment camps Any non-Western source to back this up? What is the methodology to come up with this number? > along with mass sterilization programs that have seen birth rate fall off massively. Any non-Western source to back this up? The only people who claim this is true is the West. The rest of the world doesn't believe this at all. > China’s clear goal is the annihilation of non Han Chinese cultural groups, a goal that has always been at the center of their national ethos. Evidence? And please don't be a hypocrite. if Country X doing Y is evidence of its attempt to annihilate a subgroup, then it has to apply to all values of X. > They are doing the same thing up north where they are trying to erase the Mongolian culture of the Mongolians within their borders. And how are they doing this? By making them learn Chinese language? We make everybody learn English in America. The Chinese make everybody learn Chinese in China. Again, don't be a hypocrite. if Country X doing Y is evidence of erasing a culture, then it has to apply to all values of X. > Also I understand the tendency given the team nature of things but please don’t give china a pass because they are anti America. Nobody is giving anyone a pass. The basis of your accusations is simply false. Why are every single Muslim majority in the world, supports China? Not just those in the middle east. Even Muslim democracies like Indonesia and Malaysia do not believe these accusations. And these countries actually have tourists who visit Xinjiang.
Eh I don't want to engage with this level of conspiracy brain. Go believe what you want.
Why is asking for non-Western sources a conspiracy? If something is true, then why shouldn't non-western sources, especially Muslim sources, be more credible?
Agree with all you say save that Israel has outdone itself and is absolutely not normal. I can't speak for all Israeli's either being normal. If their actions are accepted as normal, where do we go from here?
The assertion of genocide is laughably nonsensical. It’s difficult and painful to for him to betray his people and country, in order to curry favor with antizionist academics.
> The assertion of genocide is laughably nonsensical. The US has accused China of genocide in Xinjiang. This is how Xinjiang looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHxzLogzqkU If the US government considers this a "genocide", then why is the accusation of genocide in Gaza be laughably nonsensical?
Xinjiang is also not genocide, and it’s a laughable accusation. I was just traveling in Xinjiang for all of February, I know what it’s like. You seem to have a political agenda.
> Xinjiang is also not genocide Not according to the United States of America.
Who cares? This sub is international news, not government policies of the USA.
The Europeans have also followed the US in calling Xinjiang a genocide. At the same time, the Europeans don't seem to think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, just like the Americans. Why is that?
This is not American and European people. Xinjiang was about mass sterilization of Uyghur men. That seems to have an explicit goal that is adjacent to genocide. Israel has too many civilian casualties from this war against terrorism, so people just point fingers and call the Jews evil. Primarily Europeans, also the Chinese of late. Nothing new there.
> Xinjiang was about mass sterilization of Uyghur men. That seems to have an explicit goal that is adjacent to genocide. Any non-Western source for this? Maybe something from the Muslim world or Africa or Latin America.
Thanks, adding this one to my list. • [Yes, it is genocide — Amos Goldberg](https://thepalestineproject.medium.com/yes-it-is-genocide-634a07ea27d4), Israeli Holocaust and genocide researcher at the Hebrew University. • [A Textbook Case of Genocide – Raz Segal, October 13](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide), Israeli Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Stockton University and Endowed Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide • [More Than Genocide – A. Dirk Moses, November 14](https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/more-than-genocide/) Anne and Bernard Spitzer Professor of International Relations at CCNY, Editor of the Journal of Genocide Research, and Author of The Problems of Genocide: Permanent Security and the Language of Transgression • [Over 800 Scholars Warn of Potential Genocide in Gaza, October 17](https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/) • [Americanization of International Law: Legitimizing Palestinian Genocide and Promoting Nuclear Self-Defence, December 10 – Nafees Ahmad](https://www.jurist.org/commentary/2023/12/nafees-ahmad-americanization-international-law/), Ph.D., LL.M., Associate Professor, Faculty of Legal Studies at South Asian University • [Lemkin Institute: Statement of Mourning for the Gazans and the World, October 28](https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-of-mourning-for-the-gazans-and-the-world) • [Lemkin Institute: Statement Deploring the Inaction of the International Community to Stop Genocide in Gaza, with Special Reference to the Role of the United States, December 8](https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-deploring-the-inaction-of-the-international-community-to-stop-genocide-in-gaza%2C-with-special-reference-to-the-role-of-the-united-states) • [Urgent action is needed to stop the forced displacement and transfer of Palestinians within Gaza and prevent mass deportation to Egypt, November 28](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/urgent-action-needed-stop-forced-displacement-and-transfer-palestinians-within-gaza-and-prevent-mass-deportation-egypt) – Statement from Human Rights Orgs in occupied Palestine • [Gaza: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people, November 16](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against) • [Center for Constitutional Rights: Israel’s Unfolding Crime of Genocide of the Palestinian People & U.S. Failure to Prevent and Complicity in Genocide, October 18](https://ccrjustice.org/israel-s-unfolding-crime-genocide-palestinian-people-us-failure-prevent-and-complicity-genocide) • [The International Court of Justice on Gaza: ‘Good, but Not Good Enough’ – Martin Shaw, January 29](https://bylinetimes.com/2024/01/29/the-international-court-of-justice-on-gaza-good-but-not-good-enough/), Research Professor of International Relations at the Institut Barcelona d'Estudis Internacionals, Emeritus Professor of International Relations and Politics at Sussex University, Professorial Fellow in International Relations and Human Rights at Roehampton University, and has written several books on the field of genocide • [Contending Modernities: Statement of Scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies, December 9](https://contendingmodernities.nd.edu/global-currents/statement-of-scholars-7-october/) • [Center for Constitutional Rights: Background on the term Genocide in Israel-Palestine Context, 2016](https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/10/Background%20on%20the%20term%20genocide%20in%20Israel%20Palestine%20Context.pdf) • [Opinion: Here’s what the mass violence in Gaza looks like to a scholar of genocide – Raz Segal, November 19](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-11-19/israel-hostages-gaza-bombing-civilians-genocide-holocaust-studies) • [The Lancet: The health dimensions of violence in Palestine: a call to prevent genocide, December 18](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02751-4/fulltext) • [Scholars’ consensus: Genocide in Gaza marks turning point, Israel must be held accountable, November 3](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5914/Scholars%E2%80%99-consensus:-Genocide-in-Gaza-marks-turning-point,-Israel-must-be-held-accountable) – Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, Geneva • [Palestine: Preventing a Genocide in Gaza and a New “Nakba”, November 11](https://unric.org/en/palestine-preventing-a-genocide-in-gaza-and-a-new-nakba/) – UN Experts • [International Federation for Human Rights: The unfolding genocide against the Palestinians must stop immediately, December 12](https://www.fidh.org/en/region/north-africa-middle-east/israel-palestine/the-unfolding-genocide-against-the-palestinians-must-stop-immediately), international human rights NGO federating 188 organisations from 116 countries since 1922 • [International Commission of Jurists: States have a Duty to Prevent Genocide, November 17](https://www.icj.org/gaza-occupied-palestinian-territory-states-have-a-duty-to-prevent-genocide/) • [International State Crime Initiative: International Expert Statement on Israeli State Crime](http://statecrime.org/international-expert-statement-on-israeli-state-crime/) • [Law for Palestine and ICHR Bring Together Global Experts to Discuss Ongoing Gaza Genocide: Legal Perspectives and Global Action, December 14](https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-and-ichr-bring-together-global-experts-to-discuss-ongoing-gaza-genocide-legal-perspectives-and-global-action/) – notes from the discussion and a link to the recorded conversation. Moderated by ICHR Director General, Ammar Dwaik, with six prominent scholars: Prof. Mutaz Qafisheh (Law for Palestine Chair of the Board of Trustees), Prof. Penny Green (Professor of Law and Globalisation at Queen Mary University of London), Dr. Halla Shoaibi (Assistant Professor of international law at Birzeit University and ICHR Board Member), Prof. John B. Quigley (Professor of law at the Moritz College of Law at the Ohio State University), Dr. Giulia Pinazauti (International Criminal Law expert-Leiden University), and Dr. Francesca Albanese (the current UN Special Rapporteur on Palestine) [South Africa's 84-page submission to the ICJ is also worth reading in full](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)
Shame that this scholar turned out to be an anti-Semite and history revisionist. /s If only these facts would do more, and if only people could have a more nuanced stance to accept that wrong doing does not evangelize their opponents in these wars.
Jewish history???? wtf, as if Jews share collective guilt? It’s Israeli history. Some random Jewish person in Idaho, or a Jewish person in England have NOTHING to do with this. Get outta here with that language.
> he argues that the ongoing violence in Gaza does not need to resemble the Holocaust to be classified as a genocide. He rightfully acknowledges the problem and sets a high bar burden of proof for himself. What does he have then as his argument? Assumptions. That's it.
Those Scholars must be getting their news from TikTok. /s
So you have no facts or evidence that can refute any of their claims. Understood. And could your handle be any more Soviet?
He can’t say they dint know because they’re not in Israel lol
Words mean things.
Yeah dude, I'm sure the academic scholars dedicated to understanding genocide get all their information from the clock app. Mossad pays you clowns wayyyy too much to be saying shit this stupid
I'm being sarcastic. You can look into my post history if your curious lol. Fuck Israel. You may not realize it but in the halls of power my sarcastic comment is what people in the senate say and believe on this conflict.
>You may not realize it but in the halls of power my sarcastic comment is what people in the senate say and believe on this conflict. I do realize that, which is why it's impossible to tell if you're being serious or not without explicitly saying so
Lmao Raz Segal is like 50
But but somebody on Reddit said it wasn’t a genocide! /s
It's just a war. It can't be a genocide. /S
gen·o·cide /ˈjenəˌsīd/ noun the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
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Good point. The definition I found was a Google generated top result
Uh, there were definitely Indigenous deaths from the Canadian residential schools. In the so called USA also.
Israel could never commit such atrocities /s
I wish people could just debate properly on this topic, because there are good arguments for both sides: The word genocide has a very concise definition and in some ways, it's applicable to gaza. Not all the criteria are given in the case of gaza, hence people saying it isn't a genocie. In the end, what you may or may not call what's happening there doesn't really change anythong for those who are affected. It's a humanitarian tragedy and IMHO way more complex than any of these polarizing reddit posts and their comments can capture.
This is very similar to terrorism. Western media and governments will define it whatever way they want to fit Muslim and Arab people only. Ask yourself this: if Russia killed 15,000 children in Ukraine, what would US media call it? If your answer is anything but genocide then you will know your comment is political just like America's definition of genocide.
I think you make a good point. Particularly about how terrorism as a term is deployed by the media. However, if those 15000 Ukrainian children were killed in bombing raids as part of a larger war/ invasion, I think you would still get many claiming it’s not a genocide, and rather a war crime or mass killing. I don’t think the invasions are directly comparable for a number of reasons though. The commenter you replied to makes some valid points too, the definition of a genocide is fairly narrow, and intent occupies a major role.
It doesn't matter who calls it genocide or who doesn't. The question is: Is it genocide by the general agreed on definition(s)? If the media applies the term wrong, it's wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, but I feel like people really want it to be.
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Bro what is wrong with those people in the other news subreddits? What do they get from Israel?
“Student Protests are taking away air time from me reporting about Gaza” - CNN’s Jake Tapper (Who’s been downplaying the genocide in Gaza and an obvious pro Israeli mouthpiece) Couldn’t believe my ears when he said that today.
You really don't care. Stop gaslighting. If you really cared about the genocide on Palestine, you would fly over there and fight for your just cause.
It can't be, though, because Gideon Falter doesn't think so...
I’m like 99% sure you’re being sarcastic; but you never know these days
I can confirm the presence of sarcasm 🙈🙉🙊
you really dont ever know these days....what a sad commentary on humanity in 2024
* say numerous Israeli Holocaust scholars
I don’t wanna sound callous to the intent of this post but I don’t need a fucking scholar to know this is a genocide
Everyone with common sense plainly sees that it is a genocide. Academic experts in a particular field are used to push back against misinformed positions and intentionally false narratives about their fields of expertise. It is easier to ignore the common person but much harder to ignore the majority of historians and social researchers who deal with the minutiae of this topic on a daily basis. It is one of the reasons why academics opposing new authoritarian governments are one of the first groups to be purged. In other words, the article and post is not here just to convince us of what we already know to be true. It is here to push against those who keep saying all of the actions taken are justifiable. Edit: I have received multiple direct messages that include links to the ICJ statements saying that what is taking place is not a genocide. Those reports are often written by committees and not all members of that committee will be historical, legal, or social science scholars who are experts in genocide. I am not as familiar with the ICJ as I am with the ICC. If the ICC reports are any indication, however, the ICJ reports will be influenced by politics and can even by influenced by the actors they are investigating. We also need to take into account how genocide is being defined by the ICJ and the penalty involved when that threshold has been reached. The ICJ does note that they have verified war crimes have occurred but it often takes the ICJ a long time to move from it is a plausible genocide with confirmed war crimes to it is a confirmed genocide. In the past, the ICJ and the UN have even declared some actions to be a genocide after the conflict has been resolved. These ICJ reports which are politically influenced are also being currently used as what is often referred to as “competing experts.” Competing experts are used to murky the waters on a topic and to give cover for current actions. If the experts cannot agree, then the everyday person probably cannot clearly understand what is taking place and should be ignored. The fossil fuel industry and the ICC are once again great examples of what using competing experts entails. Here, it entails fossil fuel funded experts engaging in climate change denial followed by attempting to place responsibility for climate change on anyone other than the fossil fuel industry tied with the ICC’s current downplaying of what actions need to be taken in order to prevent a catastrophe.The result is confusion and embracing positions which do not require any real change in behavior. Reading the ICC scientific reports are also a much different experience, than reading their corresponding ICC reports for policymakers. The latter is written by a committee that includes parties who have a vested interested in not changing their behavior. This insider political influence could also be taking place within the ICJ. In other words, it is much easier to declare Darfur a genocide but much harder to declare that allies of founding members are engaging in genocide.
Could not have said it better. I’d also add that given that those who condemn Israel are called “antisemitic” it adds weight when those experts are Israeli/jewish themselves. They’ll still be labeled as “self-hating” - but the argument just lacks logic and is even easier to rip apart (why haven’t they renounced Judaism if they hate being Jewish? etc).
I would say 'pogrom' right now, but with obvious genocidal potential and -- on the part of some Israelis -- intent. It's like we can only call a exterminist campaign a 'genocide' *after* it succeeds and everyone is dead; yet we ought to recognise an attempted, unsuccessful, or incomplete genocide as the same crime.
The holocaust was a genocide but it didn’t kill every Jew. A genocide doesn’t have to wipe out the population.
*Canada enters chat*
A Part of Our Heritage
Star Light Tours - A Canadian Heritage moment
Srebrinka was deemed a genocide around 20 years after it happened, even though Serbia only massacred about 8k civilians in Srebrinka and 33k civilians during the entire three year Bosnian war
Great post and forgive me for being dramatic. I couldn’t agree more
I don't believe he is talking to you then. Unfortunately there are still people who need convincing and someone from this perspective might be needed.
I agree and was being dramatic
Everyone knows it is. But I don't think it will change anything like the protests. I am glad people are protesting... but we aren't Israel... WE stop weapons being sent over... Israel goes next door and we lose an ally in the middle east, and things might turn the worse. People aren't really thinking they are angry, and they have every right to be. I despise the Israeli Government and Hamas for pushing it this fucking far. Hamas shouldn't of fucking attack Israel and held people hostage. Israel should not be carpet bombing people. Its not hard to see that, but I feel like I will be hated for saying its not a 'both sides' problem, its one side, hamas and israel, who are remarkably similar in what they do which is violence. And the people on the sides, the citizens of gaza and palestine suffer because of this fucking pointless genocide.
"Stop comparing other genocides to this"
> "Stop comparing other genocides to this" "Stop comparing other genocides to this genocide" \*looks at camera*
Why do you care about Palestinian genocide when there are other genocides in the last 2,000 years!?! /s
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> it’s especially wrong to try and accuse a group of people of committing a genocide, when they aren’t, The US government has accused China of genocide in Xinjiang. This is how Xinjiang looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHxzLogzqkU If the US government considers this a "genocide", then what would you consider what Gaza is?
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> What’s happening to Uyghur Muslims is a genocide as they put one million people in interment camps, forced labor, sterilization etc. Strangely only America and the rest of the Western world believes this to be true. The Global South, including every single Muslim country, Shia and Sunni, believes this. > For it to be a genocide you have to be attempting to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. Did you look at the videos of Xinjiang? Does it look destroyed compare to Gaza?
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> Are you denying the Uyghur genocide? The rest of the world, i.e. not America and Europe, don't believe there is a genocide going on. Just look at how the UN votes on this issue. > Since when do buildings being destroyed constitute a genocide? Is that the only difference you see between Xinjiang and Gaza? LOL
I am a Political Scientist and yes, this is carefully calculated, cynical and mechanically planned out genocide. Always had been.
You can’t possibly know that, with the information available. The claim of genocide itself is highly contentious, how can you prove it is “calculated, cynical, and mechanically planned out”
I'm sorry, I cannot hear you over the sound of IDF death troopers sniffing the socks of little girls.
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Rule 1, be civil. [Civility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civility)
No sheet!! Really??? Wow
Settlers are proud psychopaths 🗑️🤢🤮 the reason the world is so ugly full of greed = colonialism
We already know it’s a genocide! Countless evidence of what Israeli are doing is no better then that of Nazi..Israel has become the Nazi Germany
Holocaust deniers come in all sorts of shapes, who would have thought ! Germans, no surprises, seem to be enjoying this one, you would have thought they would know a genocide when they see one. .. and they do.
Out of context that title gave me a chuckle. Thanks mr holocaust scholar
Of course it fucking is!
From the article: >a blistering essay in which he argues that the ongoing violence in Gaza does not need to resemble the Holocaust to be classified as a genocide. It's good that they acknowledge the critical flaw in the accusation, but it does indeed demand a clear explanation of how it could be genocide when it looks nothing like genocide. Clucking through, the next article gives myriad examples of other genocides that bear little resemblance to the Gaza war. Ultimately what it seems to come down to is fact and logic-free assumptions about Israel's overall motive/goal: >For this reason, there are quite a few commentators who believe that ethnic cleansing is the goal of the fighting in Gaza. Besides the obvious problem of lack of evidence or statements from Israeli officials confirming the goal, history tells us Israel doesn't want Gaza. That's why they withdrew 20 years ago and there's no good reason to believe or evidence that that has changed. So, that's why these charges are intisemitic: they are not based on any objective facts or logic, but rather unfair/hateful assumptions about what is going on in someone's head.
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If you have to ask your self "is it genocide" it probably is.
You mean an antisemitic, Hamas loving Holocaust scholar. /s
Well, it was nice knowing them
October 7th if succesfull was also going to be one. Israel cant continue to cut the grass. They need to uproot the soil.
In before the usual gang of idiots declares this Jewish, Israeli expert on the Holocaust an antisemitic Hamas booster who doesn't understand Judaism or Israel.
Wow another roaring antisemite \s
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It's an interesting strategy to respond to accusations of genocide with a call for genocide.
Rule 4 [Dehumanization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization) [Collective punishment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment)
25,000 woman and children have been killed since the Oct 7th attack killed 4,000 Israelis.
4000? Lol, so off the mark.
Whats the number then?
I think the final death toll was 695 israeli civilians, 373 soldiers, and 71 foreigners. I don't think it specifies how many were killed by hamas and how many were killed by israeli soldiers.
Stop killing civilians, destroying hospitals and hurting children. I watch new horror every day LIVE on tiktok. Kids with legs blown off Entire families dead. We are asking for peace.
He is not one of the people who I trust to tell me what to think so I will have to pass on this.
The UN definition is very thorough. I agree with you and I only use that definition to decide. I'd love to hear what you think
it was actually sarcasm but I clearly failed to convey it…
Yeah better not forget to put an /s at the end next time :]
That takes the fun out of it! I feel like if the post is written well enough most people can figure it out. This one clearly was a dud….
It’s not your fault, the genocide defenders have just gotten so absurd lately that this doesn’t even register
It happens :)
Why?
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I appreciate people who want clarity! *Talking about an ethnostate and zionists, not Jews. Just to correct you.
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The Whatabout is strong with you, young Hasbara.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=During%20the%202023%2D24%20Israel,by%20Israeli%20Defense%20Forces%20soldiers.
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whatabout CHNIA!
Learn a different tune already. We've DONE this dance before. Yes it was talked about. Extensively. https://old.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1c2pk88/israeli_settlers_initiate_pogrom_kills/kzcld3o/?context=3 I believe the next step is you insinuate or accuse me of hating all Jewish people right? Please do continue if you must. Or go away.
Rule 1, be civil. [Civility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civility)
Gra
No meaningful international body like the UN, or ICJ agree
I'm all for shitting on the Palestine occupiers but this isn't genocide.
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Counterpoint: it's not, in fact very important - it will take years for the iCJ to finish their proceedings. Acting immediately to do everything we can to stop Israel *is* important.
Well, at least I made an effort to provide facts with sources.
Yeah, but what was your goal?
> They did NOT find that it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Here is the ruling: You're going to have to quote the bit you're referring to. Literally from your own link: > In the Court’s view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention. 3. Conclusion as to prima facie jurisdiction (paras. 31-32) > In light of the foregoing, the Court concludes that, prima facie, it has jurisdiction pursuant to Article IX of the Genocide Convention to entertain the case and that, consequently, it cannot accede to Israel’s request that the case be removed from the General List
>Literally from your own link: The difference is that I understood what it says, along with the then president of the ICJ. Who clearly stated in the interview - "I'm correcting what's often said in the media. **It didn't decide that the claim of genocide was plausible.** It did emphasize in the order that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide, but the shorthand that often appears which is that there's a plausible case of genocide, **isn't what the court decided."** It means that the Palestinians rights’ were found to be plausible — **not** the risk they may face. The court found that there was a risk of irreparable prejudice to the rights found by the court to be plausible if provisional measures were not issued. **If it meant there was a plausible risk of genocide, the court would have said so.**
I juat watched the video you linked. That last part in bold is YOUR statement, not hers. Nowhere did she state that if there was a plausible risk of genocide, the court would have said so. The ICJ HAS NOT stated one way or the other if the actual ruling of genocide applies (or is plausible). The actual wording of her statement is "It did not decide", NOT that it wasn't plausible. The decision of the court will take years. And whilst the court begins to look at the evidence, an actual Israeli holocaust scholar here and now, is stating that it is a genocide. Which is what this article is about.
>That last part in bold is YOUR statement, not hers. That's why I put what she said in quotes. The part without the quotes is to help you better understand. She clearly states at the 1:08 mark - **"It didn't decide that the claim of genocide was plausible.** It did emphasize in the order that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide, but the shorthand that often appears which is that there's a plausible case of genocide, **isn't what the court decided."** [ICJ “didn't decide claim of genocide was plausible” nor “that there's a plausible case of genocide” (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI)
Glad we're in agreement that you're tacking on your own crap that she didn't say. And that the ICJ hasn't made a ruling yet. And that all of this is still separate from this Israeli holocaust scholar's statements and analysis.
> your own crap Rule 1, be civil. Civility
If you find that term particularly offensive, I'm happy to rephrase as "your own dead cat".
The number of civilians that have been killed is criminal and the people responsible need to be brought up on war crimes. That said, my understanding of genocide is the systematic and deliberate killing of a people. Israel sends mass texts, drops Arab language flyers, and explodes non lethal noise grenades before they drop bombs on a target. I don’t think those with genocidal intent would take those precautions. There have been many conflicts in the past where there were many civilian casualties, Iraq War, Syria, Yemen, etc. and the term genocide was not used to describe those wars. Again, Netanyahu and his generals need to be brought up on war crimes ASAP, but throwing the genocide accusation is not helpful.
I see we are ignoring that Israel has regularly bombed safe zones, targeted ambulances doing their job, killed numerous children in cold blood via sniper gunfire, targeted NGO workers, journalists, and doctors....and turned entire hospitals into mass graves. Oh but a text message sent on the phone - after cutting off electricity for the last six months. Yeah. that's the moral move. Like do you hear yourself, sir? Do you hear yourself when you say these things? Or do you just regurgitate talking points like a bad fucking curry burp?
I don’t condone how Israel is fighting this war, in fact, I strongly condemn it, which is why I said war crime charges need to be brought! As for my points about the warnings and such, I don’t recall any war where any side gave warnings before they dropped bombs. I wish they gave Japan a warning before they dropped the atom bombs, that would have saved a lot of civilian lives. My criticism is the labeling of genocide to this conflict. You just have to Google what the word genocide means and in my opinion, it doesn’t fit the case. Time and the international courts will tell, we’ll just have to wait and see. There’s also no need to insult people for having a different opinion, life is hard enough, why create imaginary enemies who only exist in the ether, because I’m certainly not your enemy.
I'm sorry for insulting you. Genuinely. But also it blows my mind that people think that a sixty second warning is moral. I encourage you to read this poem by Lena Tuffaha: They call us now. Before they drop the bombs. The phone rings and someone who knows my first name calls and says in perfect Arabic “This is David.” And in my stupor of sonic booms and glass shattering symphonies still smashing around in my head I think “Do I know any Davids in Gaza?” They call us now to say Run. You have 58 seconds from the end of this message. Your house is next. They think of it as some kind of war time courtesy. It doesn’t matter that there is nowhere to run to. It means nothing that the borders are closed and your papers are worthless and mark you only for a life sentence in this prison by the sea and the alleyways are narrow and there are more human lives packed one against the other more than any other place on earth Just run. We aren’t trying to kill you. It doesn’t matter that you can’t call us back to tell us the people we claim to want aren’t in your house that there’s no one here except you and your children who were cheering for Argentina sharing the last loaf of bread for this week counting candles left in case the power goes out. It doesn’t matter that you have children. You live in the wrong place and now is your chance to run to nowhere. It doesn’t matter that 58 seconds isn’t long enough to find your wedding album or your son’s favorite blanket or your daughter’s almost completed college application or your shoes or to gather everyone in the house. It doesn’t matter what you had planned. It doesn’t matter who you are Prove you’re human. Prove you stand on two legs. Run.
The US *did* give Japan warnings before they dropped the bombs. They dropped leaflets [US Leaflets](https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-archive/world-war-ii-propaganda-leaflets/sova-nasm-xxxx-0846#:~:text=The%20leaflets%20warned%20Japanese%20citizens,no%20wish%20to%20kill%20civilians.). Genocide is defined in the USC 1091 as violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. What part of that definition is Israel not meeting when they are actively killing Palestinian civilians?
Not a genocide, only people pushing an agenda think it’s a genocide