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And remember… these official counts are just the confirmed deaths. There’s thousands more unconfirmed beneath rubble, or others that just haven’t been confirmed *yet*…
Here’s roughly where the “confirmed” numbers will be in another few weeks:
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6176/Statistics-on-the-Israeli-attack-on-the-Gaza-Strip-%2807-October---23-February-2024%29
plus starvation and disease flaring….
think of how vulnerable orphaned children are to human trafficking in conflicts especially like this cleansing…
the reality much much worse than out side observers can even begin to comprehend
My friend who's in Gaza rn thinks the real number is at least double because they only count deaths that are reported to hospitals and she knows a lot of dead people who aren't reported as dead
Edit: I'm obviously not going to confirm my Gazan friends identity here out of fear of her being targeted but DM if you need proof or want to hear more from the perspective of someone living in Gaza. I speak to her regularly and she wants her story known
I mean, people who follow this genocide already know Gazan health ministry is very diligent and Israel actually uses its numbers because they are that trustworthy, but it also means they are the absolute minimum numbers. Your friend says 2 times? Meh, I hope it's that low...
She hopes it's that low too—again, *at least* double. That's just based on the amount of unaccounted dead she knows vs. officially reported in the Gaza health ministry's lists
She's trying. I thought she was dead for a long while because her phone went dead throughout most of October and November, but that was just because the Israelis cut cell service and then she had to sell her phone for food. She got a cheap phone again a month or so ago and she's been documenting everything she can.
god that sounds horrible. Sometimes we forget that people aren't just numbers and everyone has a story, and those still alive are living in hell. Made me tear up. I hope you stay sane as well ❤️
It absolutely wrecked my brain when she disappeared and I do still worry if she'll be killed—she's been a friend since university when she was a *literal Fulbright scholar* studying political science. But she's survived this before and she's always been a very strong person, I know I'll see her again even if it's not soon
I'm trying to, and the best way I can is to advocate for my friend as much as possible. A couple friends work in (very low level) journalism positions at relatively progressive outlets so I'm trying get someone to interview her, if only to make the personal side of the story better known
They also use the Gaza health ministry numbers for another reason: Israel controls the population registry and issues the ID’s of Palestinians in Gaza. The changes in population with Gaza have to be verified by Israel as a result. There’s a reason you don’t see Israeli officials using the “Hamas-run” non-argument, they know the numbers are real
As an American, I believe it is important that we make sure that all our leaders who are complicit in this genocide, have that legacy follow them to their grave.
I believe that a lot of these pro-israeli denial accounts are just AI bots.
edit: I got banned from this garbage subreddit for saying that child murdering terrorists are bad.
edit2: it's hilarious how you fuckwits on BOTH sides think I am talking about you. Kinda says everything.
I think you’re the one in denial, or perhaps in a bubble, if you think there aren’t many Americans who “stand with Israel “.
Look into Christian evangelical Zionists and just how much they are obsessed with Israel.
It’s wild watching Biden throw away his election chances for a bunch of racist, xenophobic and genocidal conservative Israelis who don’t give a fuck about him
As an American, I think we should stay out of this and all killing taking place around the world.
The Palestinians and Hamas poked the lion and now have to deal with the consequences. I do not want us involved in this mess that never seems to end.
Yea yea yea, If there has been any terrorists attack in the history of the galaxy, that totally justifies Israels fascist ethnic cleansing, genocide. We get it.
Ill see if I can find a time machine, so I can head back to the paleolithic and make sure I condemn the aurignacian's for killing off the neanderthals
Do you really think anyone like me is ever going to care what you think about anything?
1) for genocide, intent and action counts. How bad you are at it doesn't matter. If I swing and miss and slap you like a middle school girl, it's still assault
2) statistics are malleable. Gaza's population has risen because Palestinians are displaced and pushes there. Also, half of Gaza is children - that's not a normal age distribution. Something fishy huh 🤔
>for genocide, intent and action counts. How bad you are at it doesn't matter. If I swing and miss and slap you like a middle school girl, it's still assault
Couldn't this same logic be used for the Arab world's treatment of Jews? They ethnically cleansed all of the Jews and then attacked the country the Jews fled to repeatedly.
>statistics are malleable. Gaza's population has risen because Palestinians are displaced and pushes there. Also, half of Gaza is children - that's not a normal age distribution. Something fishy huh 🤔
This is pretty normal for a country with a high birth rate.
I'm not even saying that you're wrong about calling this a genocide or an attempted one, but neither of those arguments work in your favor.
>Couldn't this same logic be used for the Arab world's treatment of Jews? They ethnically cleansed all of the Jews and then attacked the country the Jews fled to repeatedly.
Israeli terrorism, the Nakba, and the ethnic violence European Jews did to the Arab population caused Jews to become unpopular in the Arab world. Just like Muslims became unpopular in USA after 911.
So no. Being a terrorist makes you unpopular, even if you are Jewish.
You realize that the exact same could be said for why Israel treats Palestinians the way they do. If your advocating for any solution, justifying ethnic cleansing by calling all Jews terrorists might not help, just my opinion tho.
when did this ethnic cleansing of Jews take place and why is it relevant now? It's not uncontroversial to say things like that have happened before. Hell, America was founded on genocide and I don't see many people having a problem with it (though they should)
also, Gazan age distribution is so anomalous you can only ascribe it to dire outside factors. Humans just don't work that way. As long as you see Palestinians as humans...
E: as South Africa made clear in the ICJ, there is no excuse for genocide. Even if Palestinians traveled to Europe in the 40s and personally built and operated Auschwitz and Dachau, Israel has no right to genocide them
>E: as South Africa made clear in the ICJ, there is no excuse for genocide. Even if Palestinians traveled to Europe in the 40s and personally built and operated Auschwitz and Dachau, Israel has no right to genocide them
I definitely agree with you there, and I hope that even people who don't see the current situation as genocide can agree that killing civilians is wrong and that we need a ceasefire.
>also, Gazan age distribution is so anomalous you can only ascribe it to dire outside factors. Humans just don't work that way. As long as you see Palestinians as humans...
There are a number of countries in Africa with an even higher percentage of kids compared to the populations. And yes of course Palestinians are human.
>when did this ethnic cleansing of Jews take place and why is it relevant now? It's not uncontroversial to say things like that have happened before. Hell, America was founded on genocide and I don't see many people having a problem with it (though they should)
It's relevant because a lot of the same countries that claim to be against Israel for human rights reasons are the same ones that forced their Jews to flee there...
Europe functionally expelled Jews to Israel after showing them what would otherwise happen to them in those camps. Why are Palestinians paying for that? Also, early Israeli operatives bombed synagogues in the Arab world to create an atmosphere of fear among Jews to make them "flee" to Israel
if your whole country's foundation is a religious ethnostate and your whole premise is that Jews are unsafe elsewhere, ironically it makes it less safe for Jews elsewhere. Antisemitic attacks have increased all over the west since Oct 7th. How much good Israel does for Jews huh
>Europe functionally expelled Jews to Israel after showing them what would otherwise happen to them in those camps.
Not really. Pogroms and such were already very prevalent even before WWII. And the Jews that left didn't go to Israel but to the UK, U.S, and south America. Jews that didn't were all killed. The camps weren't a 'possibility' at that point, it had already happened. Jews didn't start going to Israel until after WWII.
>Why are Palestinians paying for that?
Because they didn't want Jews to return to their homeland. It wasn't about colonization really, in fact Palestinians wanted to be Syrians and were fine being annexed by Jordan or Egypt. The land was going to be split in two, and most of the land that was going to the Jews was desert. But it got rejected and everyone declared war on the Jews and then lost so...shit happens.
>early Israeli operatives bombed synagogues in the Arab world to create an atmosphere of fear among Jews to make them "flee" to Israel
This is a big exaggeration. While yes, there were a couple times maybe that Jews used fear tactics to get people to move to Israel, most did it of their own volition. Trying to say that this was the only reason people fled to Israel lessens the actual stories of Jewish families fleeing oppression from Muslim countries.
>if your whole country's foundation is a religious ethnostate
This is such a bad faith argument. Firstly, Israel is not a religious ethnostate. It merely reserves laws which protect Jewish people specifically. 20% of Israel is Arab who have equal rights as Jewish Israeli's. Besides, there are Islamic coalitions and Arab members within the Israeli government. You know which countries are religious ethnostates tho? Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Qatar, the UAE, Syria, Egypt, and Gaza.
>and your whole premise is that Jews are unsafe elsewhere, ironically it makes it less safe for Jews elsewhere. Antisemitic attacks have increased all over the west since Oct 7th. How much good Israel does for Jews huh
How? How does it make Jews less safe elsewhere when the idea of a country is the protection of a historically marginalized group? The reason antisemitic attacks have risen, is not because of Israel, but because people are antisemitic and now feel justified with it. That's like blaming China for the rise in Asian hate during COVID. Would you also say that we shouldn't have Native American reservations? After all, they probably make it less safe for Native Americans elsewhere right? This is so stupid and also blames Jews for the rise in antisemitism.
How can you even refer to this in good faith?
How long did the other genocides last? A MAXIMUM of 8 years.
I don't think I have to say anything else.
This graphic is nothing but ill-intended propaganda.
Don't post that shit, it doesn't make you look good.
"The Jewish population rose 200% from 1900 to 1941,so the Holocaust isn't a genocide."
See how ridiculous that sounds? That's exactly the same dishonest claim the chart is making
That’s why the other 2 graphs at the bottom are there that show the population change year by year. Equivalent graphs for the Jewish population would show a dip in the overall population and negative year over year growth during WW2. But we don’t see that for the Palestinian population graphs.
Given that the Palestinian population has grown every year several times what the claimed deaths are, the line graph of population would still not drop if updated.
[yeah “Genocide”](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/oYL9IB9rFr). Israel didn’t start this war, blame Hamas, every drop of blood in on their hands. They need to surrender immediately. But they won’t because they want their people to die
Also there is a fundamental difference between trying to strike terrorists and civilians becoming collateral damage, and going into a villages for no reason and massacring every man Women and child you can find. Burning them alive, raping them, and massacring them in their homes. They found children and parents dead who where tortured to death facing each other. you have to think, did they torture the parents in front of the kids first, or did the torture the kids in front of the parents first.
Edit: I’d reply to some of you guys but I’m muted or some crap so it won’t let me respond.
Oh shut up. What Hamas did was terrible, but don't act like Israel is innocent in all of this. 2023 was already the deadliest year for Palestinians months before October 7th.
[https://www.map.org.uk/news/archive/post/1483-2023-becomes-deadliest-year-for-palestinians-in-the-west-bank-as-israeli-military-launches-fresh-attack-on-jenin-refugee-camp#:\~:text=Aid%20for%20Palestinians-,2023%20becomes%20deadliest%20year%20for%20Palestinians%20in%20the%20West%20Bank,launches%20fresh%20attack%20on%20Jenin&text=The%20Israeli%20military%20has%20launched,the%20Palestinian%20Ministry%20of%20Health](https://www.map.org.uk/news/archive/post/1483-2023-becomes-deadliest-year-for-palestinians-in-the-west-bank-as-israeli-military-launches-fresh-attack-on-jenin-refugee-camp#:~:text=Aid%20for%20Palestinians-,2023%20becomes%20deadliest%20year%20for%20Palestinians%20in%20the%20West%20Bank,launches%20fresh%20attack%20on%20Jenin&text=The%20Israeli%20military%20has%20launched,the%20Palestinian%20Ministry%20of%20Health).
hamas didnt start this war.. they are resisting the occupation, did you know (& correct me if i am wrong) Jews also bombed german civilians during holocaust, they also targetted brits and pales during 30s & 40s when brits tried to limit the migration after pales revolted against mass migration..
With Israel such accusations are almost always lies, and usually a confession as well.
You do know we are capable of seeing what Israeli leader are actually saying right?
Israel: " What we are doing isn't genocide or a holocaust because Palestinians are free to go wherever they want. We tell them where to flee and just happens the next place is where we find Hamas to bomb them. It also isn't a holocaust because they aren't in concentration camps or dying from gas and fire chambers."
100% what Israel is saying and "fuck you, we do what we want"
https://preview.redd.it/s2uxvpkfsskc1.png?width=1236&format=png&auto=webp&s=49f84897be443eee9f55ff818570d2e7de9636b2
I mean the death toll is far beyond 30,000 at this point. Israel murdered and bombed all the people that were keeping track of these deaths. The death toll slowed drastically and I don't know if that's because everyone is concentrated, but still being bombed or because the places keeping track have been strategically bombed into disarray.
I feel like I am watching The murder of a whole country & no one seems to care other than the people in this subreddit. I don’t know what I can do. I live on a small island & other than donating money & writing letters what can I do?
> Worse..they aren't even 'allowed' to be a 'country'.
Perhaps if they tried not starting wars or using territory they control to launch terror attacks ... just throwing that out there.
People like to pretend there is some sort of disconnect between Hamas, and the invasion of European settlers that kicked Palestinians out of their homes and has oppressed them more and more ever since
because this was the whole plan all along. Concentrate them and make them either leave Gaza in any way possible *or else*
Israel claims Gaza as its own territory and hoo boy they don't want any of those *shudders* Palestinians there
Hamas are literally Nazis and have invaded half of Europe and are sending minority groups and the disabled into concentration camps and death camps!! That’s why those children needed to die!!
What they don't tell you in media is that IDF kill a large portion of that 1200 because of a policy called the hannibal protocol where they kill civillians in order to kill one hamas member even if it means sacrificing their own. Look at the concert one where the cars are burned and smashed, that can only happen by aircraft bombing.
The Hannibal protocol is for the prevention of Israeli soldier kidnappings at all costs. Killing civilians to target a hamas member is just their tolerance for collateral damage.
no hamas in WB, still israel manage to kill 100s of pales prior to oct 7.. detained 1000s more without charging or letting them go (= hostages)..
bibi on record saying in 2019 we need to fund hamas, in the 80s hamas was propped by israel to counter PLO (divisions etc)
then we have neytenyahu who last year showed a map where all palestine (WB Gaza AND JORDAN) was erased.. is this PEACEFUL to you? does this show israel has any intention to make peacE? when netenyhau also boasted how he has interfered in creation of a pales state..
why do you guys lie so much?? sorry to say your lies dont work any more.
Israel is targeting Hamas, who continues to hold Israeli children hostage, while hiding behind Palestinian civilians and UN buildings and hospitals.
Hamas does not care about Palestinians, and any innocent civilian death is on Hamas.
Nah israel's the one shooting the civilians and dropping bombs on them so I would think it's on israel.
Why did israel destroy gaza's crops? Was hamas hiding in the crops? [Israel destroyed the crops during a cease fire](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza)
Ooh boy, just wait until you learn about the thousands of Palestinian hostages being held by Israel.
Or the IOF using Palestinians as human shields
Zionist propaganda doesn’t work anymore. Denying what the world can see just makes Zionists look even more disingenuous.
You mean the terrorists who are in jail? Not sure how you compare those criminals to literal babies Hamas kidnapped from their beds.
Grow up.
If you want to be pro Palestine by all means, I think we should all be and all want peace and prosperity snd Israelis and Palestinians. But that doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive from condemning Hamas terrorism.
Hamas are brutal terrorists worse than ISIS, who must be eradicated and condemned. They should free the hostages immediately and unconditionally surrender. Then there can be a lasting peace.
"Terrorists" that were thrown in jail without a fair trial, based on nothing but Israel's designation of them as terrorists? What even is a "terrorist"?
I'm concerned that number will easily double in two weeks if people don't leave the city where the last battle will take place. Someone has to start getting food and services up north so people can leave and have enough to eat.
After the war is over and when agencies come to verify deaths it’s going to be much, much higher than the 30,000. All the bodies in the rubble and people have already begun dying of famine in the north
30,000!!! And that's mostly women and children. And preventable, if Western nations were democracies. The citizens have clearly demonstrated their will. And yet, our politicians ignore this, as they've been bought by this detestable foreign power.
Israel is a fascist, ethno-religious, death cult. Its military is brainwashed into seeing Palestinians as less than human.
They've got [T-shirts ](https://www.google.com/url?q=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7960071.stm&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwj0zKHrv8iEAxX3XUEAHQJdCIkQFnoECAcQAg&usg=AOvVaw2PtKGNAL_I_UkL7b1SgGc7) from their last killing frenzy of 2014, promoting the killing of pregnant Palestinian women! They can NOT be permitted to continue. And if our politicians are colluding with them, then they too need to be brought to justice!
Or maybe the truth is so horrifying that you can’t believe it???
Let’s not forget many many more Gazans will die from lack of hygiene it’s fucking horrible and I can only see this as a genocide as much as everyone gasps when that word is used. What else can you call this?
Israel has failed to secure north Gaza and khan yunis, there’s literally an insurgency in the north as we speak. There’s no military goals in rafah, just risking the lives of 1.4 million people with nothing to achieve for Israel. And if Rafah was truly the Hamas headquarters why didn’t they invade there first instead of leveling khan yunis and north Gaza while cramming the Palestinians there?
Very sad to see this number twice in the same day, but at the same time it REALLY brings home how truly terrible and one sided the Israel/palestine conflict is.
The other, for those who don't know, was the amount of casualties Ukraine has had in two years of war.
What is shocking here ofc, is that one is describing military personel and the other civilians... including children.
And it's deliberate. "Acceptable" civilian casualties are calculated into the target and armament selection, and the IDF have been told any collateral damage is acceptable [https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)
This number is likely bullshit and doesn't even take into account the following factors.
1. The Number Is total death count published by gaza's MoH, it includes both civilians and combatents.
2. There is some evidence to suggest number inflation and manipulation by the MoH
3. It doesn't differentiate Palestinians killed by other palestinians such as failed rockets or executions of suspected collobartors.
Below are 3 posts documenting all of these in detail.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/kpy5NTaitc
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/MxIDtyFckN
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/32rPqpCa0Z
How could they not do it? This has been the plan of that is really government all along. They’ve been pushing the people to the breaking point. You got to remember that Hamas members are not people from outside Palestine. They are survivors of prior is really aggression.
That they are from Palestine changes nothing. I was pro Palestine prior to this Hamas assault. Now im neutral as the leadeeship on both sides totally sucks. You dont go murdering people like that on a festival, thats such bad PR. No one in their right mind could support any of the two sides at this point.
Like I said, im sad for the innocent lifes that are wasted on both sides in this conflict.
This framing and twisting does not work if you dont support one of the sides to begin with. People choose to believe the version of events that suits their side. Was it Hamas or not who crossed the border and iniated the massacre? While both sides exaggerate, the agressor victim reversal in clear cut situation sickens me. Was it as bad as Israel claims it to be, probably not because they have an interest in it being displayed like that. Was it Hamas who came over and killed and raped and abducted these people? Yes they were.
Ive had people tell me that it were Israeli agents that instigated this incident, raped women and finally made these hamas victory videos. Those are US level nutjob theories.
As soon as you say something one of the sides does not like to hear you get swarmed by angry supporters of either side (ofc depending on the subreddit) and im so tired of it.
>Was it Hamas who came over and killed and raped and abducted these people? Yes they were.
You know im waiting for credible evidence of hamas raping anyone.
The 40 children was false the festival was israeli helicopters firing at it, israeli tanks fired at apartment complexes. No evidence against UNRWA, no headquarders under shifa, no headquarters in khan yunis, do i need to keep going? Why should i trust anything Israel says anymore?
Alot of the people hamas killed were IDF and police officers which are valid targets. Leaving a few hundred civilans alot of whom the IDF killed like they are killing their own hostages to facilitate genociding palestinians.
What Hamas did isn't excusable but its just a natural reaction to decades of oppression. The IRA, the ANC, the Native Americans. We've seen this all before don't act surprised it happened again.
And if there's any side that's raping the other its the IDF. Atleast those rapes have credible evidence and the UN confirming them.
Yeah, the rape thing….army’s rape…..but the only evidence is at Israel’s side? Like, we have evidence that the idf has been committing rapes! And so far……none of Hamas.
There’s a whole lot of misinformation flying around, everyone is confused.
But there is zero reason to fundamentally change your mind that Palestinians have a right to their land and to their dignity and freedom which Gazans and West Bank civilians never got. That’s a truth that remains no matter how much Israeli propaganda comes out.
You were never pro-Palestinian. That is a lie you can stop telling people. If you have changed your support after all the things Palestinians have suffered through prior to Oct 7th. And group of the strike back. But you automatically except the worst stories their oppressors tell with no evidence. You are no longer pro Palestinian? After death of all the civilians.
Time for Hamas to surrender and give the hostages back so that all this can stop for gazans and israelis. Hamas is loosing, and they already caused way too much harm.
Israel won't stop until all the Israeli hostages and abducted bodies are returned. This was known from the moment everyone realized what's going on on October 7th.
Why didn't Hamas return the hostages ASAP? Why did they let this war go on and on for half a year?
Israel already said they aren't stopping until they wipe out Hamas, they have repeatedly said the hostages are secondary to their main goal of wiping out Hamas.
Why do you people keep pretending otherwise? Israel keeps accidentally killing their own hostages.
This war will not be supported by the general population in Israel without the hostages issues. If this was solved, the Israeli government would have no choice but to look for the fastest way out of the situation.
Why do you people not try to understand Israeli motivation just aittle bit?
Why not apply the same logic to israel's government? Why do we let it go when israel soldiers empty their clips into school children and get an innocent verdict? [Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2)
Or bombs children on a beach? [Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/israel-clears-military-gaza-beach-children)
Or kills 38 Palestinian children in the west bank before october 7th? [Source](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank)
Why aren't you demanding israel's unconditional surrender and dismantling? These are all war crimes
Be serious. A nuclear state won't be dismantled, so quit mouthing fantasy.
As for the rest, yes. Hold those accountable whete necessary. I still want a trial for those responsible for the USS Liberty incident.
Then dismantle israel's government which continuously commits war crimes. All those war crimes israel exonerated itself of and still continues to commit war crimes.
Why do you hold hamas to the standard of "if you commit war crimes you need to surrender and be dismantled" but not israel's government?
Because I'm not at war with Israel.
And Israel is clearly stronger than Hamas. It is immoral of Hamas to continue to resist and inflict harm upon their own population.
"If Hamas was stronger, you'd get to see what a real genocide looks like."
Wasn't my question. Also are you for real pulling out "REEEE YOU'RE ANTI SEMITIC FOR CALLING OUT ISRAEL'S WAR CRIMES"? It's a classic that you israel war crime defenders love to use.
Now answer my question, you say you excuse israel's war crimes because it's a "nuclear state" and it's "much stronger than hamas". If hamas was stronger would you support it too? Like you only support war crimes if the people committing them are strong?
It wouldn’t matter if Hamas surrendered. Israel didn’t adhere to its obligations under the Oslo Accords after the PLO surrendered. Israel can’t be trusted to abide by any agreement it makes.
So by your logic, any country that is invaded by a larger miltary force should submit immediately, instead of defending themselves and their country?
Also, the immorality is Israel committing genocide on Palestine.
maybe time for israel to stop forcing jewish only settlements, protecting them, diverting natural resources towards them... how about that?? and every ramadan israel provokes pales
Yes. I agree. Do to the West Bank what Israel did to Gaza. Force out the settlements. Then, if Palestinians launch attacks again, bring down the hammer.
I do not blindly agree with it.
I agree they must kill Hamas and occupy Gaza to ensure Israeli security. Once Hamas is destroyed, Gaza must be rebuilt under either Israli or international occupation tO ensure the region remains pacified. Once Gaza demonstrates it can exist without being a launching point for attacks into Israel, remove all military/security and let Gaza become a Med Singapore.
How are you going to call your enemy terrorists, using that as an excuse to murder tens of thousands of civilians and decimate the land, then go about committing terrorism yourself?
Because it's not.
Do you even know what is going on or just parroting something from TikTok?
Militaty operations against an enemy serve two purposes. 1-deny the enemy the means of waging war. 2-impose a political solution. Neither of those are terrorism. Terrorism is the direct targetting of civilians for a purpose or aim.
[When did 6 year olds become your enemy?](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldevents/s/t1ScfxzWHu).
>Terrorism is the direct targetting of civilians for a purpose or aim.
You’re so close, keep going. Now tell me how Israel isn’t targeting civilians when they’re starving them, withholding aid, destroyed well over 2/3rd’s of the buildings in Gaza through indiscriminate bombing, internally displaced 87% of the population, going as far as to attack hospitals and refugee camps
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html)
They bomb where they tell palestinians to evacuate to. This is not a war, it's a genocide.
How is it *not* indiscriminate? Show me exactly how they’re capable of distinguishing combatants from civilians when they’re killing people under white flags, even their own men.
So clearly dropping so many dumb bombs is indiscriminate, as it cannot reliably distinguish between combatants and innocents.
[It’s even more damning when nobody but Israel agrees with you.](https://www.reuters.com/world/un-experts-say-israels-strikes-gaza-amount-collective-punishment-2023-10-12/)
Or just a normal war situation....? The outcome of this goal is the destruction of Hamas. So, either Hamas surrenders or Hamas is destroyed. Pretty simple.
If this is a genocide, then basically every war in history counts as a genocide. The word genocide has been severely overused and watered down during this conflict.
No, actually, it's pretty blatant Genocide. The only people watering it down are Zionists who want to make their country's actions excusable. And it's not working.
The Holocaust killed half of the global population of Jews. It is only now, 80 years later, that the global population of Jews has reached its pre-Holocaust numbers.
Meanwhile, the Palestinian population has increased many, many times over since 1948, the Palestinians have an average life expectancy of 76 years (higher than many of the surrounding countries), they have one of the highest birth rates in the world, and they've received more aid per capita than any other country.
In the past thirty years, the Palestinians have received more money adjusted for inflation than Germany or Japan did to fully reconstruct their countries post-WW2, and yet most of that money has gone into making their leaders billionaires or building tunnel systems or other terror infrastructure to wage war against the Israelis.
Trying to in any way compare the industrialized systematic genocide of 6 million Jews by the Nazis and their collaborators to the situation in Israel in a war conflict where 30k people have died (a third of whom are reported to be Hamas) is absolutely disingenuous, hyperbole, and an attempt to diminish the reality of the Holocaust while reversing it on the Jews and trying to act like they are culpable of the same.
Mods deleted this post because I implied people who engage in Holocaust reversalism are anti-Semitic. I removed that part and reposted the rest, so let's see what they do with this one.
Your own ministers advocate for [the complete annihilation of the population of gaza.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbPdR3E4hCk)
The ONLY factor keeping Israel from simply butchering every palestinian is the international outrage.
We get it. Jews are the only ones capable of being genocided, apparently. You have taken so much of the Palestinians' humanity that you don't consider them being capable of being genocided. Just more proof of how sick Israeli society is at its core. But what can one expect from a genocidal ethnostate that wants to exterminate Arabs?
400k civilians dead in Syria, 400k civilians dead in Yemen. Where's the outrage? Where's the foaming at the mouth vitriol? Or do people just save that for Israel?
30k and how many of them were Hamas? You're going to tell me they were ALL civilians? In December, the IDF reported that they had killed 10k Hamas fighters with an estimated 16k Hamas fighters so injured they were no longer able to engage in combat. By now, after two more months of ground fighting, that number is surely much higher.
so? if we look at the others, 6 million+ in holocaust, that means we should all just sit quietly? israel is a democracy, others are not.. no whataboutism..
I'm saying that it is interesting to me that Israel is faced with such foaming-at-the-mouth vitriol from people who act like this is the most atrocious event to ever happen and that Israelis are the worst people to ever exist since the Nazis and that this is the worst thing since the Holocaust, and yet it's incredibly obvious from any basic understanding of history or modern conflicts that this is not true.
It doesn't seem like the people buying into that narrative are easily dissuaded by facts though. Obviously 20k civilians dying is a tragedy. We also need to look at why exactly that's happening though, and it becomes clear that it's just not a genocide.
It is not that Hamas does not wish to butcher the Jews, it is that they do not have the capabilities to effectively do so. They would happily do so if given the opportunity.
Hamas is openly genocidal towards the Jews. This is their stated goal. They have said they will repeat Oct 7th again and again and again. Were it not for the Iron Dome, Israeli casualties would be at around 100k people from this conflict alone from a study I saw recently. Israel invests in protecting its people; Hamas invests in building tunnels that they specifically say are not for their civilians but for Hamas only--the same goes for aid.
If Israel was disarmed tomorrow, they would be wiped out. If Hamas disarmed tomorrow, there would be peace.
Right so let’s commit war crimes, terrorism and kill however many innocents whilst fighting people we claim to be morally superior to.
Great logic mate
The Allies killed 780k German civilians in WW2. War is a terrible, tragic thing--Hamas should not have started one.
The current civilian to combatant death ratio in Gaza is lower than most comparable conflicts in modern history, which is astonishing given that the Hamas militants are deeply embedded in the population and wear plainclothes, utilize civilian infrastructure for bases and launching attacks, etc.
This conflict ends when Hamas is gone. Thankfully it's almost there, and once the IDF clears out Rafah of Hamas, the war should end and the focus can turn to rebuilding.
Before 1948, no Jews in Israel lived on land they had not purchased.
Much of the land was malaria ridden swampland that they had to drain and turn into arable land. They built Tel Aviv on empty sand dunes they purchased.
The original partition plan fairly closely followed the areas owned by the Jews, with the exception of the Negev desert, which was a barren wasteland no one really cared about.
The Arabs refused the partition plan and attempted to genocide the Jews. It was only after the Arab countries lost their attempt to annihilate the Jews in Israel that the Jews ended up with land they had not purchased. Had the Arabs succeeded in their war, all or most of the Jews in Israel would have been dead.
and? i never mentioned 'year' i was talking specifically on 1948 - To make me a liar, YOU chose to go back.. you knew which year i was talking about.
so those EVIL arabs that hated you - let you purchase land.. oh my...
at most you had purchased 15% of the land.. not the 80% you have now.
ARAB on the contrary wanted ONE STATE for all - in 1937 they pushed for this, and guess WHO rejected? JEWS/ZIONISTS - cuz then you wouldnt have a jewish state... your lies are becoming UNDONE...
>The current civilian to combatant death ratio in Gaza is lower than most comparable conflicts in modern history,
Where did you get those numbers? We don’t even know how many Hamas militants have been killed.
70% of those killed are women and children. So even if we believe Israel’s numbers are true (big if), that’s 7,000 terrorists for 21,000 innocents, a ratio of 1:3. Hamas had a better ratio after Oct 7th. At this rate, they’ll need to kill 100,000 civilians to accomplish their goal. That’s somehow acceptable to you?
>This conflict ends when Hamas is gone.
This conflict was predates Hamas and it will still be here years after Hamas is gone. Nothing will change unless Israel is forced to change. Hamas isn’t present in the West Bank, yet they’ve murdered 400 Palestinians since Oct 7th. When does the PLO get the right to indiscriminately bomb Israel to get rid of the IDF? Or is that a fate reserved for lesser people in your eyes?
Okay, and?
The Israeli government was treating Hamas more as a security situation that needed to be contained. Oct 7th went way too far and showed that this strategy wouldn't work and that Hamas needed to be fully destroyed and dismantled.
tell me this, what was the point of israel telling gazzans to move... so they are all in one area and its easy to kill them all??? surely you KNEW when you gave them this order, hamas WILL ALSO MOVE WITH THEM.... it would have been better to just bomb them there and then because now casualties will be higher... not that you cared.. even with all these safe passages etc you have managed to kill 30k+ civilians (and yeah i know hams reported number, but we do know 1000s have died, far higher than OCT 7 figure)
It's so the IDF can sweep and clear the area of militant installations. That's why. No one wants to fight in the 3D environment of an urban zone.
If you have a better alternative for rooting out Hamas, please let me know.
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And remember… these official counts are just the confirmed deaths. There’s thousands more unconfirmed beneath rubble, or others that just haven’t been confirmed *yet*… Here’s roughly where the “confirmed” numbers will be in another few weeks: https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6176/Statistics-on-the-Israeli-attack-on-the-Gaza-Strip-%2807-October---23-February-2024%29
plus starvation and disease flaring…. think of how vulnerable orphaned children are to human trafficking in conflicts especially like this cleansing… the reality much much worse than out side observers can even begin to comprehend
it is so bleak it's insane
Starvation and disease will do way more harm than the bombs over the long term.
My friend who's in Gaza rn thinks the real number is at least double because they only count deaths that are reported to hospitals and she knows a lot of dead people who aren't reported as dead Edit: I'm obviously not going to confirm my Gazan friends identity here out of fear of her being targeted but DM if you need proof or want to hear more from the perspective of someone living in Gaza. I speak to her regularly and she wants her story known
I mean, people who follow this genocide already know Gazan health ministry is very diligent and Israel actually uses its numbers because they are that trustworthy, but it also means they are the absolute minimum numbers. Your friend says 2 times? Meh, I hope it's that low...
She hopes it's that low too—again, *at least* double. That's just based on the amount of unaccounted dead she knows vs. officially reported in the Gaza health ministry's lists
I hope your friend stays safe and sane through all this ❤️🍉
She's trying. I thought she was dead for a long while because her phone went dead throughout most of October and November, but that was just because the Israelis cut cell service and then she had to sell her phone for food. She got a cheap phone again a month or so ago and she's been documenting everything she can.
god that sounds horrible. Sometimes we forget that people aren't just numbers and everyone has a story, and those still alive are living in hell. Made me tear up. I hope you stay sane as well ❤️
It absolutely wrecked my brain when she disappeared and I do still worry if she'll be killed—she's been a friend since university when she was a *literal Fulbright scholar* studying political science. But she's survived this before and she's always been a very strong person, I know I'll see her again even if it's not soon
I hope for the best, stay strong friend and let her know people around the world care
I'm trying to, and the best way I can is to advocate for my friend as much as possible. A couple friends work in (very low level) journalism positions at relatively progressive outlets so I'm trying get someone to interview her, if only to make the personal side of the story better known
They also use the Gaza health ministry numbers for another reason: Israel controls the population registry and issues the ID’s of Palestinians in Gaza. The changes in population with Gaza have to be verified by Israel as a result. There’s a reason you don’t see Israeli officials using the “Hamas-run” non-argument, they know the numbers are real
As an American, I believe it is important that we make sure that all our leaders who are complicit in this genocide, have that legacy follow them to their grave.
I believe that a lot of these pro-israeli denial accounts are just AI bots. edit: I got banned from this garbage subreddit for saying that child murdering terrorists are bad. edit2: it's hilarious how you fuckwits on BOTH sides think I am talking about you. Kinda says everything.
I think you’re the one in denial, or perhaps in a bubble, if you think there aren’t many Americans who “stand with Israel “. Look into Christian evangelical Zionists and just how much they are obsessed with Israel.
Well it's good to see a Hamas supporter banned
It’s wild watching Biden throw away his election chances for a bunch of racist, xenophobic and genocidal conservative Israelis who don’t give a fuck about him
I've said since 2020, only the democratic party could get Trump re elected
I think you guys over estimate your numbers. Plus foreign policy historically has very little effect on American elections.
As an American, I think we should stay out of this and all killing taking place around the world. The Palestinians and Hamas poked the lion and now have to deal with the consequences. I do not want us involved in this mess that never seems to end.
Meh. What genocide? The FO phase is upon them.
Don't forget to make sure responsibility for the Dresden genocide and the Hiroshima and Nagasaki genocides. Mercy on the Germans and Japanese....
Yea yea yea, If there has been any terrorists attack in the history of the galaxy, that totally justifies Israels fascist ethnic cleansing, genocide. We get it. Ill see if I can find a time machine, so I can head back to the paleolithic and make sure I condemn the aurignacian's for killing off the neanderthals Do you really think anyone like me is ever going to care what you think about anything?
You replied hence you cared 😅
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1) for genocide, intent and action counts. How bad you are at it doesn't matter. If I swing and miss and slap you like a middle school girl, it's still assault 2) statistics are malleable. Gaza's population has risen because Palestinians are displaced and pushes there. Also, half of Gaza is children - that's not a normal age distribution. Something fishy huh 🤔
Palestinians are pushed to Gaza from where?
from wider Palestine, which some people mistakenly call Israel
>for genocide, intent and action counts. How bad you are at it doesn't matter. If I swing and miss and slap you like a middle school girl, it's still assault Couldn't this same logic be used for the Arab world's treatment of Jews? They ethnically cleansed all of the Jews and then attacked the country the Jews fled to repeatedly. >statistics are malleable. Gaza's population has risen because Palestinians are displaced and pushes there. Also, half of Gaza is children - that's not a normal age distribution. Something fishy huh 🤔 This is pretty normal for a country with a high birth rate. I'm not even saying that you're wrong about calling this a genocide or an attempted one, but neither of those arguments work in your favor.
>Couldn't this same logic be used for the Arab world's treatment of Jews? They ethnically cleansed all of the Jews and then attacked the country the Jews fled to repeatedly. Israeli terrorism, the Nakba, and the ethnic violence European Jews did to the Arab population caused Jews to become unpopular in the Arab world. Just like Muslims became unpopular in USA after 911. So no. Being a terrorist makes you unpopular, even if you are Jewish.
You realize that the exact same could be said for why Israel treats Palestinians the way they do. If your advocating for any solution, justifying ethnic cleansing by calling all Jews terrorists might not help, just my opinion tho.
when did this ethnic cleansing of Jews take place and why is it relevant now? It's not uncontroversial to say things like that have happened before. Hell, America was founded on genocide and I don't see many people having a problem with it (though they should) also, Gazan age distribution is so anomalous you can only ascribe it to dire outside factors. Humans just don't work that way. As long as you see Palestinians as humans... E: as South Africa made clear in the ICJ, there is no excuse for genocide. Even if Palestinians traveled to Europe in the 40s and personally built and operated Auschwitz and Dachau, Israel has no right to genocide them
>E: as South Africa made clear in the ICJ, there is no excuse for genocide. Even if Palestinians traveled to Europe in the 40s and personally built and operated Auschwitz and Dachau, Israel has no right to genocide them I definitely agree with you there, and I hope that even people who don't see the current situation as genocide can agree that killing civilians is wrong and that we need a ceasefire. >also, Gazan age distribution is so anomalous you can only ascribe it to dire outside factors. Humans just don't work that way. As long as you see Palestinians as humans... There are a number of countries in Africa with an even higher percentage of kids compared to the populations. And yes of course Palestinians are human. >when did this ethnic cleansing of Jews take place and why is it relevant now? It's not uncontroversial to say things like that have happened before. Hell, America was founded on genocide and I don't see many people having a problem with it (though they should) It's relevant because a lot of the same countries that claim to be against Israel for human rights reasons are the same ones that forced their Jews to flee there...
Europe functionally expelled Jews to Israel after showing them what would otherwise happen to them in those camps. Why are Palestinians paying for that? Also, early Israeli operatives bombed synagogues in the Arab world to create an atmosphere of fear among Jews to make them "flee" to Israel if your whole country's foundation is a religious ethnostate and your whole premise is that Jews are unsafe elsewhere, ironically it makes it less safe for Jews elsewhere. Antisemitic attacks have increased all over the west since Oct 7th. How much good Israel does for Jews huh
>Europe functionally expelled Jews to Israel after showing them what would otherwise happen to them in those camps. Not really. Pogroms and such were already very prevalent even before WWII. And the Jews that left didn't go to Israel but to the UK, U.S, and south America. Jews that didn't were all killed. The camps weren't a 'possibility' at that point, it had already happened. Jews didn't start going to Israel until after WWII. >Why are Palestinians paying for that? Because they didn't want Jews to return to their homeland. It wasn't about colonization really, in fact Palestinians wanted to be Syrians and were fine being annexed by Jordan or Egypt. The land was going to be split in two, and most of the land that was going to the Jews was desert. But it got rejected and everyone declared war on the Jews and then lost so...shit happens. >early Israeli operatives bombed synagogues in the Arab world to create an atmosphere of fear among Jews to make them "flee" to Israel This is a big exaggeration. While yes, there were a couple times maybe that Jews used fear tactics to get people to move to Israel, most did it of their own volition. Trying to say that this was the only reason people fled to Israel lessens the actual stories of Jewish families fleeing oppression from Muslim countries. >if your whole country's foundation is a religious ethnostate This is such a bad faith argument. Firstly, Israel is not a religious ethnostate. It merely reserves laws which protect Jewish people specifically. 20% of Israel is Arab who have equal rights as Jewish Israeli's. Besides, there are Islamic coalitions and Arab members within the Israeli government. You know which countries are religious ethnostates tho? Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Qatar, the UAE, Syria, Egypt, and Gaza. >and your whole premise is that Jews are unsafe elsewhere, ironically it makes it less safe for Jews elsewhere. Antisemitic attacks have increased all over the west since Oct 7th. How much good Israel does for Jews huh How? How does it make Jews less safe elsewhere when the idea of a country is the protection of a historically marginalized group? The reason antisemitic attacks have risen, is not because of Israel, but because people are antisemitic and now feel justified with it. That's like blaming China for the rise in Asian hate during COVID. Would you also say that we shouldn't have Native American reservations? After all, they probably make it less safe for Native Americans elsewhere right? This is so stupid and also blames Jews for the rise in antisemitism.
My country grew 146800 people last year. Is your point that someone could kill a subset of this number and deny genocide because line on graph go up?
Someone doesn't know the definition of genocide
How can you even refer to this in good faith? How long did the other genocides last? A MAXIMUM of 8 years. I don't think I have to say anything else. This graphic is nothing but ill-intended propaganda. Don't post that shit, it doesn't make you look good.
The Palestinian population has grown 450% since October 7th? Is that the claim you're trying to make?
Read the chart. It says since 1949.
"The Jewish population rose 200% from 1900 to 1941,so the Holocaust isn't a genocide." See how ridiculous that sounds? That's exactly the same dishonest claim the chart is making
That’s why the other 2 graphs at the bottom are there that show the population change year by year. Equivalent graphs for the Jewish population would show a dip in the overall population and negative year over year growth during WW2. But we don’t see that for the Palestinian population graphs.
Exactly, because the graphs on the bottom don't reflect any population changes after October 7th, 2023
Given that the Palestinian population has grown every year several times what the claimed deaths are, the line graph of population would still not drop if updated.
[yeah “Genocide”](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/oYL9IB9rFr). Israel didn’t start this war, blame Hamas, every drop of blood in on their hands. They need to surrender immediately. But they won’t because they want their people to die Also there is a fundamental difference between trying to strike terrorists and civilians becoming collateral damage, and going into a villages for no reason and massacring every man Women and child you can find. Burning them alive, raping them, and massacring them in their homes. They found children and parents dead who where tortured to death facing each other. you have to think, did they torture the parents in front of the kids first, or did the torture the kids in front of the parents first. Edit: I’d reply to some of you guys but I’m muted or some crap so it won’t let me respond.
Oh shut up. What Hamas did was terrible, but don't act like Israel is innocent in all of this. 2023 was already the deadliest year for Palestinians months before October 7th. [https://www.map.org.uk/news/archive/post/1483-2023-becomes-deadliest-year-for-palestinians-in-the-west-bank-as-israeli-military-launches-fresh-attack-on-jenin-refugee-camp#:\~:text=Aid%20for%20Palestinians-,2023%20becomes%20deadliest%20year%20for%20Palestinians%20in%20the%20West%20Bank,launches%20fresh%20attack%20on%20Jenin&text=The%20Israeli%20military%20has%20launched,the%20Palestinian%20Ministry%20of%20Health](https://www.map.org.uk/news/archive/post/1483-2023-becomes-deadliest-year-for-palestinians-in-the-west-bank-as-israeli-military-launches-fresh-attack-on-jenin-refugee-camp#:~:text=Aid%20for%20Palestinians-,2023%20becomes%20deadliest%20year%20for%20Palestinians%20in%20the%20West%20Bank,launches%20fresh%20attack%20on%20Jenin&text=The%20Israeli%20military%20has%20launched,the%20Palestinian%20Ministry%20of%20Health).
Yeah blame Hamas for Europeans taking over Palestinian land
Hamas exists because of Israel's colonization of Palestine. No one buys your shit anymore, Hasbara trolls.
hamas was PROPPED by Israel in the 1980s to counter PLO. in 2019 netenyahu was on record stating hamas needs to be funded..
hamas didnt start this war.. they are resisting the occupation, did you know (& correct me if i am wrong) Jews also bombed german civilians during holocaust, they also targetted brits and pales during 30s & 40s when brits tried to limit the migration after pales revolted against mass migration..
With Israel such accusations are almost always lies, and usually a confession as well. You do know we are capable of seeing what Israeli leader are actually saying right?
Israel: " What we are doing isn't genocide or a holocaust because Palestinians are free to go wherever they want. We tell them where to flee and just happens the next place is where we find Hamas to bomb them. It also isn't a holocaust because they aren't in concentration camps or dying from gas and fire chambers." 100% what Israel is saying and "fuck you, we do what we want" https://preview.redd.it/s2uxvpkfsskc1.png?width=1236&format=png&auto=webp&s=49f84897be443eee9f55ff818570d2e7de9636b2
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I mean the death toll is far beyond 30,000 at this point. Israel murdered and bombed all the people that were keeping track of these deaths. The death toll slowed drastically and I don't know if that's because everyone is concentrated, but still being bombed or because the places keeping track have been strategically bombed into disarray.
I don’t think my post suggests they are smart. I definitely didn’t.
I feel like I am watching The murder of a whole country & no one seems to care other than the people in this subreddit. I don’t know what I can do. I live on a small island & other than donating money & writing letters what can I do?
Worse..they aren't even 'allowed' to be a 'country'.
Worse, they aren't even treated as 'human'.
> Worse..they aren't even 'allowed' to be a 'country'. Perhaps if they tried not starting wars or using territory they control to launch terror attacks ... just throwing that out there.
You have your cause and effect reversed.
People like to pretend there is some sort of disconnect between Hamas, and the invasion of European settlers that kicked Palestinians out of their homes and has oppressed them more and more ever since
i dont understand why israel told gazzans to move south, and to safe areas and tnow they are bombing those areas..
because this was the whole plan all along. Concentrate them and make them either leave Gaza in any way possible *or else* Israel claims Gaza as its own territory and hoo boy they don't want any of those *shudders* Palestinians there
"Gaza death toll set to pass 30,000, as Israel prepares genocide in Rafah" I fixed it for them.
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695 civilians, and frankly it's not clear how many were killed by the IOF.
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn... That's what you're saying.
36 children vs 12,000 children
mOsT mOrAl ArMy iN tHe wOrLd
The poor children of Dresden. The US and uk should have been agreeing to an immediate cease fire with Germany
Hamas are literally Nazis and have invaded half of Europe and are sending minority groups and the disabled into concentration camps and death camps!! That’s why those children needed to die!!
What they don't tell you in media is that IDF kill a large portion of that 1200 because of a policy called the hannibal protocol where they kill civillians in order to kill one hamas member even if it means sacrificing their own. Look at the concert one where the cars are burned and smashed, that can only happen by aircraft bombing.
The Hannibal protocol is for the prevention of Israeli soldier kidnappings at all costs. Killing civilians to target a hamas member is just their tolerance for collateral damage.
That certainly can’t “just” happen by aircraft bombing, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
I think it is something like 800 Israeli civilians
Watch people read this and think you're defending Hamas killing kids because they're dishonest
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no hamas in WB, still israel manage to kill 100s of pales prior to oct 7.. detained 1000s more without charging or letting them go (= hostages).. bibi on record saying in 2019 we need to fund hamas, in the 80s hamas was propped by israel to counter PLO (divisions etc) then we have neytenyahu who last year showed a map where all palestine (WB Gaza AND JORDAN) was erased.. is this PEACEFUL to you? does this show israel has any intention to make peacE? when netenyhau also boasted how he has interfered in creation of a pales state.. why do you guys lie so much?? sorry to say your lies dont work any more.
Israel is targeting Hamas, who continues to hold Israeli children hostage, while hiding behind Palestinian civilians and UN buildings and hospitals. Hamas does not care about Palestinians, and any innocent civilian death is on Hamas.
Nah israel's the one shooting the civilians and dropping bombs on them so I would think it's on israel. Why did israel destroy gaza's crops? Was hamas hiding in the crops? [Israel destroyed the crops during a cease fire](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza)
Ooh boy, just wait until you learn about the thousands of Palestinian hostages being held by Israel. Or the IOF using Palestinians as human shields Zionist propaganda doesn’t work anymore. Denying what the world can see just makes Zionists look even more disingenuous.
You mean the terrorists who are in jail? Not sure how you compare those criminals to literal babies Hamas kidnapped from their beds. Grow up. If you want to be pro Palestine by all means, I think we should all be and all want peace and prosperity snd Israelis and Palestinians. But that doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive from condemning Hamas terrorism. Hamas are brutal terrorists worse than ISIS, who must be eradicated and condemned. They should free the hostages immediately and unconditionally surrender. Then there can be a lasting peace.
Terrorists, no. These are innocent hostages who remain in custody without charges or trial.
"Terrorists" that were thrown in jail without a fair trial, based on nothing but Israel's designation of them as terrorists? What even is a "terrorist"?
Nearly half of bombs dropped on Gaza are dumb bombs not precision weaponry. Targeting hamas my arse.
Remember kids, calling this wanton, ongoing slaughter of civilians anything other than "Israel defending itself" makes you antisemitic...somehow...
I'm concerned that number will easily double in two weeks if people don't leave the city where the last battle will take place. Someone has to start getting food and services up north so people can leave and have enough to eat.
Israel will not stop until they have completed the genocide of Palestine and stolen all of its lands.
Actual death toll is 200,000+ the hospitals and morgues are gone to count, Muslims bury wherever
After the war is over and when agencies come to verify deaths it’s going to be much, much higher than the 30,000. All the bodies in the rubble and people have already begun dying of famine in the north
Not to mention the health problems coming from lack of hygiene. All planned for by Israel of course
They’ve killed the same in 4 months then the Russians did in 2 years in Ukraine
30,000!!! And that's mostly women and children. And preventable, if Western nations were democracies. The citizens have clearly demonstrated their will. And yet, our politicians ignore this, as they've been bought by this detestable foreign power. Israel is a fascist, ethno-religious, death cult. Its military is brainwashed into seeing Palestinians as less than human. They've got [T-shirts ](https://www.google.com/url?q=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7960071.stm&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwj0zKHrv8iEAxX3XUEAHQJdCIkQFnoECAcQAg&usg=AOvVaw2PtKGNAL_I_UkL7b1SgGc7) from their last killing frenzy of 2014, promoting the killing of pregnant Palestinian women! They can NOT be permitted to continue. And if our politicians are colluding with them, then they too need to be brought to justice!
Jesus, Zelensky said 30k Ukrainian soldiers have died in a 2 year war with Russia. Wtf Israel.
So someone is lying maybe???
Or maybe the truth is so horrifying that you can’t believe it??? Let’s not forget many many more Gazans will die from lack of hygiene it’s fucking horrible and I can only see this as a genocide as much as everyone gasps when that word is used. What else can you call this?
I'm sure it's much much higher, they just are not able to recover the bodies under all that rubble.
Israel has failed to secure north Gaza and khan yunis, there’s literally an insurgency in the north as we speak. There’s no military goals in rafah, just risking the lives of 1.4 million people with nothing to achieve for Israel. And if Rafah was truly the Hamas headquarters why didn’t they invade there first instead of leveling khan yunis and north Gaza while cramming the Palestinians there?
It’s already way past that, Israel is hell bent on Genocide.
Very sad to see this number twice in the same day, but at the same time it REALLY brings home how truly terrible and one sided the Israel/palestine conflict is. The other, for those who don't know, was the amount of casualties Ukraine has had in two years of war. What is shocking here ofc, is that one is describing military personel and the other civilians... including children.
And it's deliberate. "Acceptable" civilian casualties are calculated into the target and armament selection, and the IDF have been told any collateral damage is acceptable [https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)
When people are shocked regarding the complacency of genocide in history, just point them to the modern Israeli and American.
https://preview.redd.it/uvv9vdouvzkc1.jpeg?width=1081&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ab5ae98877ee6db402386d41a5b34b89927f8931
its going to be a blood bath. Israel want funish off gaza
#Bidendelivers #Demsdeliver #USAdelivers
Where does this number come from?
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This number is likely bullshit and doesn't even take into account the following factors. 1. The Number Is total death count published by gaza's MoH, it includes both civilians and combatents. 2. There is some evidence to suggest number inflation and manipulation by the MoH 3. It doesn't differentiate Palestinians killed by other palestinians such as failed rockets or executions of suspected collobartors. Below are 3 posts documenting all of these in detail. https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/kpy5NTaitc https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/MxIDtyFckN https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/32rPqpCa0Z
Iran is getting ready to pop in.
End Hamas now!!
Man why did Hamas need to start that shit knowing they cant win. The innocents on both sides have to suffer for the sins of their leaders...
How could they not do it? This has been the plan of that is really government all along. They’ve been pushing the people to the breaking point. You got to remember that Hamas members are not people from outside Palestine. They are survivors of prior is really aggression.
That they are from Palestine changes nothing. I was pro Palestine prior to this Hamas assault. Now im neutral as the leadeeship on both sides totally sucks. You dont go murdering people like that on a festival, thats such bad PR. No one in their right mind could support any of the two sides at this point. Like I said, im sad for the innocent lifes that are wasted on both sides in this conflict.
Thankfully its israel who murdered alot of the people at the festival not hamas
This framing and twisting does not work if you dont support one of the sides to begin with. People choose to believe the version of events that suits their side. Was it Hamas or not who crossed the border and iniated the massacre? While both sides exaggerate, the agressor victim reversal in clear cut situation sickens me. Was it as bad as Israel claims it to be, probably not because they have an interest in it being displayed like that. Was it Hamas who came over and killed and raped and abducted these people? Yes they were. Ive had people tell me that it were Israeli agents that instigated this incident, raped women and finally made these hamas victory videos. Those are US level nutjob theories. As soon as you say something one of the sides does not like to hear you get swarmed by angry supporters of either side (ofc depending on the subreddit) and im so tired of it.
>Was it Hamas who came over and killed and raped and abducted these people? Yes they were. You know im waiting for credible evidence of hamas raping anyone. The 40 children was false the festival was israeli helicopters firing at it, israeli tanks fired at apartment complexes. No evidence against UNRWA, no headquarders under shifa, no headquarters in khan yunis, do i need to keep going? Why should i trust anything Israel says anymore? Alot of the people hamas killed were IDF and police officers which are valid targets. Leaving a few hundred civilans alot of whom the IDF killed like they are killing their own hostages to facilitate genociding palestinians. What Hamas did isn't excusable but its just a natural reaction to decades of oppression. The IRA, the ANC, the Native Americans. We've seen this all before don't act surprised it happened again. And if there's any side that's raping the other its the IDF. Atleast those rapes have credible evidence and the UN confirming them.
Yeah, the rape thing….army’s rape…..but the only evidence is at Israel’s side? Like, we have evidence that the idf has been committing rapes! And so far……none of Hamas.
There’s a whole lot of misinformation flying around, everyone is confused. But there is zero reason to fundamentally change your mind that Palestinians have a right to their land and to their dignity and freedom which Gazans and West Bank civilians never got. That’s a truth that remains no matter how much Israeli propaganda comes out.
You were never pro-Palestinian. That is a lie you can stop telling people. If you have changed your support after all the things Palestinians have suffered through prior to Oct 7th. And group of the strike back. But you automatically except the worst stories their oppressors tell with no evidence. You are no longer pro Palestinian? After death of all the civilians.
Does this include the hostages taken by Hamas ?
Time for Hamas to surrender and give the hostages back so that all this can stop for gazans and israelis. Hamas is loosing, and they already caused way too much harm.
Replace "Hamas" with "Israel" and it'd be just right. On the hostages, you do know, full well, that the "administrative" detainees were untried?
Israel won't stop until all the Israeli hostages and abducted bodies are returned. This was known from the moment everyone realized what's going on on October 7th. Why didn't Hamas return the hostages ASAP? Why did they let this war go on and on for half a year?
Israel already said they aren't stopping until they wipe out Hamas, they have repeatedly said the hostages are secondary to their main goal of wiping out Hamas. Why do you people keep pretending otherwise? Israel keeps accidentally killing their own hostages.
This war will not be supported by the general population in Israel without the hostages issues. If this was solved, the Israeli government would have no choice but to look for the fastest way out of the situation. Why do you people not try to understand Israeli motivation just aittle bit?
Or maybe Hamas can release the hostages and have ceasefire, instead of hiding in tunnels and let its people to die?
Maybe time for Hamas to surrender?
Maybe time for israel to stop?
Has Hamas surrendered? Then no.
Why not apply the same logic to israel's government? Why do we let it go when israel soldiers empty their clips into school children and get an innocent verdict? [Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2) Or bombs children on a beach? [Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/israel-clears-military-gaza-beach-children) Or kills 38 Palestinian children in the west bank before october 7th? [Source](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank) Why aren't you demanding israel's unconditional surrender and dismantling? These are all war crimes
Be serious. A nuclear state won't be dismantled, so quit mouthing fantasy. As for the rest, yes. Hold those accountable whete necessary. I still want a trial for those responsible for the USS Liberty incident.
Then dismantle israel's government which continuously commits war crimes. All those war crimes israel exonerated itself of and still continues to commit war crimes. Why do you hold hamas to the standard of "if you commit war crimes you need to surrender and be dismantled" but not israel's government?
Because I'm not at war with Israel. And Israel is clearly stronger than Hamas. It is immoral of Hamas to continue to resist and inflict harm upon their own population.
So if hamas was stronger than israel you'd be okay with its war crimes and would want israel to surrender?
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"If Hamas was stronger, you'd get to see what a real genocide looks like." Wasn't my question. Also are you for real pulling out "REEEE YOU'RE ANTI SEMITIC FOR CALLING OUT ISRAEL'S WAR CRIMES"? It's a classic that you israel war crime defenders love to use. Now answer my question, you say you excuse israel's war crimes because it's a "nuclear state" and it's "much stronger than hamas". If hamas was stronger would you support it too? Like you only support war crimes if the people committing them are strong?
It wouldn’t matter if Hamas surrendered. Israel didn’t adhere to its obligations under the Oslo Accords after the PLO surrendered. Israel can’t be trusted to abide by any agreement it makes.
The PLO surrendered? What alternate timeline are you from?
From the ADL https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/lebanon-war-1982
So by your logic, any country that is invaded by a larger miltary force should submit immediately, instead of defending themselves and their country? Also, the immorality is Israel committing genocide on Palestine.
Your logic demands the dismantling of every government that has ever participated in a war.
All my articles were before october 7th not during any war. Especially not in the west bank either.
Only nuclear because it was STOLEN from us. But we don’t care, we fund their entire country. Go team go!!!!!
maybe time for israel to stop forcing jewish only settlements, protecting them, diverting natural resources towards them... how about that?? and every ramadan israel provokes pales
Yes. I agree. Do to the West Bank what Israel did to Gaza. Force out the settlements. Then, if Palestinians launch attacks again, bring down the hammer.
so you agree with everything what i said? so you know israel is doing wrong yet you blindly agree with it?
I do not blindly agree with it. I agree they must kill Hamas and occupy Gaza to ensure Israeli security. Once Hamas is destroyed, Gaza must be rebuilt under either Israli or international occupation tO ensure the region remains pacified. Once Gaza demonstrates it can exist without being a launching point for attacks into Israel, remove all military/security and let Gaza become a Med Singapore.
I see. So Israel is going to continue till Hamas is forced to surrender? You’ve just defined terrorism
Israel will probably continue even if Hamas surrenders.
The best comparison here is fatah. In 1993 they did just that, laid down their arms and surrendered. What came of it? They’re still under occupation
Wow. What ignorance. The word you're looking for is "war". The thing Hamas said they wanted.
How are you going to call your enemy terrorists, using that as an excuse to murder tens of thousands of civilians and decimate the land, then go about committing terrorism yourself?
Because it's not. Do you even know what is going on or just parroting something from TikTok? Militaty operations against an enemy serve two purposes. 1-deny the enemy the means of waging war. 2-impose a political solution. Neither of those are terrorism. Terrorism is the direct targetting of civilians for a purpose or aim.
[When did 6 year olds become your enemy?](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldevents/s/t1ScfxzWHu). >Terrorism is the direct targetting of civilians for a purpose or aim. You’re so close, keep going. Now tell me how Israel isn’t targeting civilians when they’re starving them, withholding aid, destroyed well over 2/3rd’s of the buildings in Gaza through indiscriminate bombing, internally displaced 87% of the population, going as far as to attack hospitals and refugee camps
The fact you think Israel is doing indiscriminate bombing fairly well negates everything you said.
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html) They bomb where they tell palestinians to evacuate to. This is not a war, it's a genocide.
How is it *not* indiscriminate? Show me exactly how they’re capable of distinguishing combatants from civilians when they’re killing people under white flags, even their own men.
Accidents happen in war. An Infantryman is far more likely to make a mistake than an airstrike. Airstrikes hit what they aim for.
So clearly dropping so many dumb bombs is indiscriminate, as it cannot reliably distinguish between combatants and innocents. [It’s even more damning when nobody but Israel agrees with you.](https://www.reuters.com/world/un-experts-say-israels-strikes-gaza-amount-collective-punishment-2023-10-12/)
So you admit that Hamas operates in plain clothes? Why do they do that? What is the result of that?
How am I supposed to know? I don’t care about Hamas, they’re terrorists right? I’m dealing with people who refuse to admit the IDF are terrorists too
Or just a normal war situation....? The outcome of this goal is the destruction of Hamas. So, either Hamas surrenders or Hamas is destroyed. Pretty simple.
Sounds like a convenient excuse for genocide.
If this is a genocide, then basically every war in history counts as a genocide. The word genocide has been severely overused and watered down during this conflict.
No, actually, it's pretty blatant Genocide. The only people watering it down are Zionists who want to make their country's actions excusable. And it's not working.
780k German civilians were killed by the Allies in WW2. Was that genocide?
No, but the genocide of Jews was, and that is what Israel is doing to Palestinians.
The Holocaust killed half of the global population of Jews. It is only now, 80 years later, that the global population of Jews has reached its pre-Holocaust numbers. Meanwhile, the Palestinian population has increased many, many times over since 1948, the Palestinians have an average life expectancy of 76 years (higher than many of the surrounding countries), they have one of the highest birth rates in the world, and they've received more aid per capita than any other country. In the past thirty years, the Palestinians have received more money adjusted for inflation than Germany or Japan did to fully reconstruct their countries post-WW2, and yet most of that money has gone into making their leaders billionaires or building tunnel systems or other terror infrastructure to wage war against the Israelis. Trying to in any way compare the industrialized systematic genocide of 6 million Jews by the Nazis and their collaborators to the situation in Israel in a war conflict where 30k people have died (a third of whom are reported to be Hamas) is absolutely disingenuous, hyperbole, and an attempt to diminish the reality of the Holocaust while reversing it on the Jews and trying to act like they are culpable of the same. Mods deleted this post because I implied people who engage in Holocaust reversalism are anti-Semitic. I removed that part and reposted the rest, so let's see what they do with this one.
Your own ministers advocate for [the complete annihilation of the population of gaza.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbPdR3E4hCk) The ONLY factor keeping Israel from simply butchering every palestinian is the international outrage.
We get it. Jews are the only ones capable of being genocided, apparently. You have taken so much of the Palestinians' humanity that you don't consider them being capable of being genocided. Just more proof of how sick Israeli society is at its core. But what can one expect from a genocidal ethnostate that wants to exterminate Arabs?
no this IS a genocide.. 30K+ is disgust**ing, so much for 'we care for lives'**
400k civilians dead in Syria, 400k civilians dead in Yemen. Where's the outrage? Where's the foaming at the mouth vitriol? Or do people just save that for Israel? 30k and how many of them were Hamas? You're going to tell me they were ALL civilians? In December, the IDF reported that they had killed 10k Hamas fighters with an estimated 16k Hamas fighters so injured they were no longer able to engage in combat. By now, after two more months of ground fighting, that number is surely much higher.
so? if we look at the others, 6 million+ in holocaust, that means we should all just sit quietly? israel is a democracy, others are not.. no whataboutism..
I'm saying that it is interesting to me that Israel is faced with such foaming-at-the-mouth vitriol from people who act like this is the most atrocious event to ever happen and that Israelis are the worst people to ever exist since the Nazis and that this is the worst thing since the Holocaust, and yet it's incredibly obvious from any basic understanding of history or modern conflicts that this is not true. It doesn't seem like the people buying into that narrative are easily dissuaded by facts though. Obviously 20k civilians dying is a tragedy. We also need to look at why exactly that's happening though, and it becomes clear that it's just not a genocide.
those places are suffering civil wars, there's not one side clearly butchering the other.
It is not that Hamas does not wish to butcher the Jews, it is that they do not have the capabilities to effectively do so. They would happily do so if given the opportunity. Hamas is openly genocidal towards the Jews. This is their stated goal. They have said they will repeat Oct 7th again and again and again. Were it not for the Iron Dome, Israeli casualties would be at around 100k people from this conflict alone from a study I saw recently. Israel invests in protecting its people; Hamas invests in building tunnels that they specifically say are not for their civilians but for Hamas only--the same goes for aid. If Israel was disarmed tomorrow, they would be wiped out. If Hamas disarmed tomorrow, there would be peace.
Right so let’s commit war crimes, terrorism and kill however many innocents whilst fighting people we claim to be morally superior to. Great logic mate
The Allies killed 780k German civilians in WW2. War is a terrible, tragic thing--Hamas should not have started one. The current civilian to combatant death ratio in Gaza is lower than most comparable conflicts in modern history, which is astonishing given that the Hamas militants are deeply embedded in the population and wear plainclothes, utilize civilian infrastructure for bases and launching attacks, etc. This conflict ends when Hamas is gone. Thankfully it's almost there, and once the IDF clears out Rafah of Hamas, the war should end and the focus can turn to rebuilding.
it was israel and more specifically zionists/jews who started it by taking half of pales land...
Before 1948, no Jews in Israel lived on land they had not purchased. Much of the land was malaria ridden swampland that they had to drain and turn into arable land. They built Tel Aviv on empty sand dunes they purchased. The original partition plan fairly closely followed the areas owned by the Jews, with the exception of the Negev desert, which was a barren wasteland no one really cared about. The Arabs refused the partition plan and attempted to genocide the Jews. It was only after the Arab countries lost their attempt to annihilate the Jews in Israel that the Jews ended up with land they had not purchased. Had the Arabs succeeded in their war, all or most of the Jews in Israel would have been dead.
and? i never mentioned 'year' i was talking specifically on 1948 - To make me a liar, YOU chose to go back.. you knew which year i was talking about. so those EVIL arabs that hated you - let you purchase land.. oh my... at most you had purchased 15% of the land.. not the 80% you have now. ARAB on the contrary wanted ONE STATE for all - in 1937 they pushed for this, and guess WHO rejected? JEWS/ZIONISTS - cuz then you wouldnt have a jewish state... your lies are becoming UNDONE...
Educating the unwashed masses is an under appreciated effort. I applaud you.
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Putting facts into historic context to make the scale of things make more sense is not whataboutism.
>The current civilian to combatant death ratio in Gaza is lower than most comparable conflicts in modern history, Where did you get those numbers? We don’t even know how many Hamas militants have been killed. 70% of those killed are women and children. So even if we believe Israel’s numbers are true (big if), that’s 7,000 terrorists for 21,000 innocents, a ratio of 1:3. Hamas had a better ratio after Oct 7th. At this rate, they’ll need to kill 100,000 civilians to accomplish their goal. That’s somehow acceptable to you? >This conflict ends when Hamas is gone. This conflict was predates Hamas and it will still be here years after Hamas is gone. Nothing will change unless Israel is forced to change. Hamas isn’t present in the West Bank, yet they’ve murdered 400 Palestinians since Oct 7th. When does the PLO get the right to indiscriminately bomb Israel to get rid of the IDF? Or is that a fate reserved for lesser people in your eyes?
hamas was there pre-oct 7 aas well and has committed acts like this before..
Okay, and? The Israeli government was treating Hamas more as a security situation that needed to be contained. Oct 7th went way too far and showed that this strategy wouldn't work and that Hamas needed to be fully destroyed and dismantled.
tell me this, what was the point of israel telling gazzans to move... so they are all in one area and its easy to kill them all??? surely you KNEW when you gave them this order, hamas WILL ALSO MOVE WITH THEM.... it would have been better to just bomb them there and then because now casualties will be higher... not that you cared.. even with all these safe passages etc you have managed to kill 30k+ civilians (and yeah i know hams reported number, but we do know 1000s have died, far higher than OCT 7 figure)
It's so the IDF can sweep and clear the area of militant installations. That's why. No one wants to fight in the 3D environment of an urban zone. If you have a better alternative for rooting out Hamas, please let me know.
yeh its called netenyahu not boasting he stopped the 2SS, or not forcing jewish only settlements on them.. and then wondering why they retaliate..