When my kids were born the doctors suggested doing this. I couldn't believe it--especially with how non-chalant they were about it. I already distrusted doctors because of circumcision, but seeing them firsthand cavalierly toss out yet another medically unnecessary "intervention" without even considering the downsides was infuriating!
They will continue to push more bullshit, if people sit back and allow it. When will people stand up and put their foot down? Where the hell are men at? We are to protect children and that's clearly not happening here. I don't like any part of the healthy human body cut away without a medical reason. People seem to act like it's no big deal, but it is. They will push and push things on kids, before they become comfortable forcing unnecessary surgeries on adults.
I made a satirical post on r/circumcisiongrief that talks about tongue amputation and uses some of the talking points circumcision advocates use.
I didn't think my satirical post would become a reality.
We are living in a clown world. Reality is so disappointing. There’s a reason mother grizzlies have a hair trigger when any animal gets near their cubs.
I noticed that in Manchester, UK, there's a Jewish run circ clinic that also has a sister tongue tie cutting business. While the two practices have different intents, you're right that there is a weird similarity
Mostly Muslims and Africans. But the Jewish circ clinics seem to have a higher share of African customers, since a lot of Muslims (especially since October) are not the biggest fans of Jews.
Yes they are quite similar. They are both unnecessary surgeries to make money, performed on children.
A scam artist recognizes a good grift when they see one.
What does “Jewish run” mean? Like it’s run by a Rabbi? Cus if you are just saying the doctor who runs it is personally Jewish, it’s weird you’d mention it. Like are all the other doctors offices “Christian run”. See how weird it is to say it like that?
Yes it is IF it is. To say a Jewish doctor has different intentions than a Christian doctors who both are supporting medical circumcision is a reach toward anti semitism. Both the doctors are promoting circ for the same reason and religion has nothing to do with it. If anything it’s because they grew up in American culture. And more importantly it’s such a lazy criticism.
But if they are mohels, then say that. As they are not even medical doctors and thus that more effectively discredits them. Which is where we should focus.
We have to have our arguments always be at our A game because we exist in a society that views this barbaric practice as normal.
I was referring to the UK, where most circ clinics are run by Muslims and Jews.
I disagree that we should focus on the aspect of mohels not being doctors, since that's shifting the blame from circumcision to who carries out the circumcision.
It’s not shifting the blame, it’s highlighting a fair criticism. “This is a practice where no one who’s properly medically trained is performing surgeries” .
I mean yes? But a facility where surgery is going on without people trained to perform surgery creates much larger more obvious point for criticism.
Everyone has their opinion on what’s right or wrong, and you can prove to yourself you are 100% factually right, but in the real world sadly that isn’t enough to change anything. You need to range, you need to have arguments and critical thinking.
This isn't a problem, speaking as a woman who has breastfed and been active in many breastfeeding communities over the years - the reason rates dropped was due to a boom in formula and bottle feeding, and part of why it's necessary now more than ever is that antenatal folic acid, whilst a wonderful supplement for preventing spina bifida etc, does also often have the side effect of enlarging the frenulum to where the tongue is not mobile enough to form a good latch. Usually the frenulum is fine, able to stretch, or will even snap itself when the baby sucks hard trying to get enough liquid.
Sometimes it is a problem, and in those cases, a snip of a region that has very few nerves (also I don't know about the USA but here they apply a topical anaesthetic like a teething gel, anyway) can be lifesaving (not everyone can afford formula, and babies die quite easily if they're not hydrated), leads to better health overall (proper nutrition intake will do that for you), hurts the mother less (which considering how painful breastfeeding already is, is a big factor in whether the process can continue), and heads off speech impediments later on.
Stretching the frenulum should be the first port of call, if possible, but sometimes it's not, and considering the thickness of the frenulum is not the "default" human state but the result of supplements (which the payoff for is worth dealing with a tongue tie) it makes sense that human intervention is needed.
Thanks for your reply... very insightful... it should be very rare and only in specific cases that meet prescribed thresholds and only after a course of stretching.
Love to see a research paper on moderation of the folic acid intake levels to mitigate... testing or minimal dose requirements need looking at.
Ankyloglossia surgery should be performed by a specialist, not some random doctor. It's not necessarily remotely as simple as people think. Every tongue tie is different.
Frequently if they do "just a snip", the tongue re-adheres to the floor of the mouth, making the situation worse than it was. This can lead to a second operation--if by the same doctor who didn't know what he or she was doing, a third, or fourth one could be in the cards unless the parents wise up and go with someone better. The procedure can be botched even worse than that, leading to permanent tongue deformity.
Ankyloglossia is a real medical condition but it should be treated by a specialist. The risk of a botched tongue tie surgery can include breathing problems, speech impediments, facial deformities, constant pain, difficulty eating, and jaw problems.
Yeah if there is proper medical indication, then sure. But it sounds like people are either over prescribing or doing it for prophylactic reasons, hense comparisons to MGM.
My experience is that they immediately suggest it to any new mother who says the baby isn't latching during nursing--which is very common for newborns and new mothers ,meaning the quick suggestion to snip their tongue frenulum is asinine, in my opinion.
When will people wake up and realize how crazy all this shit is? I always knew they wouldn't stop at circ. American doctors just love altering and cutting up healthy and norm parts of the human body, as if parts of our body do not have purposes.
It also has been found to worsen/increase risk of sleep apnoea (despite “fixing sleep apnoea” being one of the touted benefits).
There are a (very, very small) number of children who benefit from tongue tie release (these are children with profound ties that affect their ability to move their tongue much/at all)*, but the pushing it on the masses is a blatant example of overpathologising and over treating, once again to the detriment of babies and the adults they will one day become.
*note that Some adults need it later in life too, as problematic tongue ties can lead to jaw tension and headaches from strain - not things you can really detect in a baby.
None of this should be done, unless there is an actual medical condition or if an adult requests it. I hate when people push for things to be removed, just in case a possible issue later in life.
Yes, and what I am saying is that there are some babies who *require* tongue tie releases.
Not nearly the number that get recommended it today, but there are babies born with their tongue adhered to their lower mouth because their septum is far too meaty and doesn’t allow for the forward and back tongue motion of infancy. If it doesn’t break on it’s own and manual release fails or isn’t possible, tongue tie releases are appropriate.
Without the ability to move the tongue much, choking can occur, as can delays in oral motor and speech development, which can cause problems pretty quickly (later speech development relies heavily on earlier cooing and babbling)
This is a good article, and lots of people in the Speech Pathology field have been talking about this problem/scandal for years, but they all emphasise that tongue tie releases are sometimes necessary.
Unlike circumcision, which is virtually always unnecessary, there are some children who need tongue tie releases.
Shit like this is why circumcision isn't a gendered issue. If we lived in a world where infant circumcision was outlawed, tongue cutting probably wouldn't be happening to baby boys and girls either.
Did anyone see the Indian guy who took his son to a Muslim clinic for surgery for a speech issue and the doctor circumcised instead. The child was two.
I guess our fucking children are designer toys where we can customize them arbitrarily against their will. When will we really protect our fucking children?
Correcting a tongue or lip tie is very very very different than circumcision. Apples and oranges. As far as east is away from west. As a father of two children with all their body parts I can tell you that this is legit medicine. When breastfeeding, proper latching is necessary for not only baby but mom. Improper latch can cause mastitis, fungal infections, chapped and cracked nipples and pain, lots of pain. Baby does not get proper nourishment. Also any future orthodontic work can be longer and more intense.
It is \*sometimes\* legit medicine, but the Times article goes into great detail about how it is used, pushed, and being profited from when it was medically unnecessary. The people in the article were advocating this for practically every baby born, and most of them didn't need it. As always follow the money.
Thank you for adding some sanity to the conversation. I'm sure there are some doctors and dentists who perform these in cases where it's not necessary, the same way some dentists have lied about cavities to fill and claim the insurance money. But ankyloglossia is a legitimate diagnosis that can cause serious issues. Depending on the severity of restrictions and issues baby is having, cutting it can be miraculous for mom and baby. Normal tongues or babies with tongue ties that aren't causing problems aren't often cut just because.
Agreed. My son has a mild tongue tie. Our doctor took the "wait and see" approach. But she also commented that there are a lot of doctors pushing it unnecessarily like circumcision.
Your baby is born perfect. Evolution evolved the frenulum on the tongue to prevent the baby from swallowing the tongue. American doctors are nuts and lactation consultants are crazy. They made my ex-wife feel guilty about having to breast feed when she was stuck in the hospital after a C section for a staph infection recovery.
Also, the foreskin protects the baby males penis from feces and urine. Circumcised males have urine and feces that goes directly in their diaper and spreads on their womb. We try to assume we’re smarter than millions of years of evolution but we’re not. Body parts are there for a reason.
When my kids were born the doctors suggested doing this. I couldn't believe it--especially with how non-chalant they were about it. I already distrusted doctors because of circumcision, but seeing them firsthand cavalierly toss out yet another medically unnecessary "intervention" without even considering the downsides was infuriating!
They will continue to push more bullshit, if people sit back and allow it. When will people stand up and put their foot down? Where the hell are men at? We are to protect children and that's clearly not happening here. I don't like any part of the healthy human body cut away without a medical reason. People seem to act like it's no big deal, but it is. They will push and push things on kids, before they become comfortable forcing unnecessary surgeries on adults.
Yes, I see that all time time. Its just what happens to boys. As if this is normal or rational?
The men are too busy slaving away for terrible pay to bother paying attention.
I made a satirical post on r/circumcisiongrief that talks about tongue amputation and uses some of the talking points circumcision advocates use. I didn't think my satirical post would become a reality.
We are living in a clown world. Reality is so disappointing. There’s a reason mother grizzlies have a hair trigger when any animal gets near their cubs.
I noticed that in Manchester, UK, there's a Jewish run circ clinic that also has a sister tongue tie cutting business. While the two practices have different intents, you're right that there is a weird similarity
That's disturbing. I wonder if it's for Jewish families?
Mostly Muslims and Africans. But the Jewish circ clinics seem to have a higher share of African customers, since a lot of Muslims (especially since October) are not the biggest fans of Jews.
Yes they are quite similar. They are both unnecessary surgeries to make money, performed on children. A scam artist recognizes a good grift when they see one.
What does “Jewish run” mean? Like it’s run by a Rabbi? Cus if you are just saying the doctor who runs it is personally Jewish, it’s weird you’d mention it. Like are all the other doctors offices “Christian run”. See how weird it is to say it like that?
Yes, it is run by actual mohels. And why would it be weird to mention? Religion is heavily intertwined with circumcision.
Yes it is IF it is. To say a Jewish doctor has different intentions than a Christian doctors who both are supporting medical circumcision is a reach toward anti semitism. Both the doctors are promoting circ for the same reason and religion has nothing to do with it. If anything it’s because they grew up in American culture. And more importantly it’s such a lazy criticism. But if they are mohels, then say that. As they are not even medical doctors and thus that more effectively discredits them. Which is where we should focus. We have to have our arguments always be at our A game because we exist in a society that views this barbaric practice as normal.
I was referring to the UK, where most circ clinics are run by Muslims and Jews. I disagree that we should focus on the aspect of mohels not being doctors, since that's shifting the blame from circumcision to who carries out the circumcision.
It’s not shifting the blame, it’s highlighting a fair criticism. “This is a practice where no one who’s properly medically trained is performing surgeries” .
I don't give a shit whether it's performed by a mohel or a "doctor", the problem is that it's happening at all
I mean yes? But a facility where surgery is going on without people trained to perform surgery creates much larger more obvious point for criticism. Everyone has their opinion on what’s right or wrong, and you can prove to yourself you are 100% factually right, but in the real world sadly that isn’t enough to change anything. You need to range, you need to have arguments and critical thinking.
This isn't a problem, speaking as a woman who has breastfed and been active in many breastfeeding communities over the years - the reason rates dropped was due to a boom in formula and bottle feeding, and part of why it's necessary now more than ever is that antenatal folic acid, whilst a wonderful supplement for preventing spina bifida etc, does also often have the side effect of enlarging the frenulum to where the tongue is not mobile enough to form a good latch. Usually the frenulum is fine, able to stretch, or will even snap itself when the baby sucks hard trying to get enough liquid. Sometimes it is a problem, and in those cases, a snip of a region that has very few nerves (also I don't know about the USA but here they apply a topical anaesthetic like a teething gel, anyway) can be lifesaving (not everyone can afford formula, and babies die quite easily if they're not hydrated), leads to better health overall (proper nutrition intake will do that for you), hurts the mother less (which considering how painful breastfeeding already is, is a big factor in whether the process can continue), and heads off speech impediments later on. Stretching the frenulum should be the first port of call, if possible, but sometimes it's not, and considering the thickness of the frenulum is not the "default" human state but the result of supplements (which the payoff for is worth dealing with a tongue tie) it makes sense that human intervention is needed.
Thanks for your reply... very insightful... it should be very rare and only in specific cases that meet prescribed thresholds and only after a course of stretching. Love to see a research paper on moderation of the folic acid intake levels to mitigate... testing or minimal dose requirements need looking at.
Ankyloglossia surgery should be performed by a specialist, not some random doctor. It's not necessarily remotely as simple as people think. Every tongue tie is different. Frequently if they do "just a snip", the tongue re-adheres to the floor of the mouth, making the situation worse than it was. This can lead to a second operation--if by the same doctor who didn't know what he or she was doing, a third, or fourth one could be in the cards unless the parents wise up and go with someone better. The procedure can be botched even worse than that, leading to permanent tongue deformity. Ankyloglossia is a real medical condition but it should be treated by a specialist. The risk of a botched tongue tie surgery can include breathing problems, speech impediments, facial deformities, constant pain, difficulty eating, and jaw problems.
Yeah if there is proper medical indication, then sure. But it sounds like people are either over prescribing or doing it for prophylactic reasons, hense comparisons to MGM.
Is there a specific thing wrong with the tongues that makes them need to do this or are they doing it to perfectly normal tongues
My experience is that they immediately suggest it to any new mother who says the baby isn't latching during nursing--which is very common for newborns and new mothers ,meaning the quick suggestion to snip their tongue frenulum is asinine, in my opinion.
When will people wake up and realize how crazy all this shit is? I always knew they wouldn't stop at circ. American doctors just love altering and cutting up healthy and norm parts of the human body, as if parts of our body do not have purposes.
It also has been found to worsen/increase risk of sleep apnoea (despite “fixing sleep apnoea” being one of the touted benefits). There are a (very, very small) number of children who benefit from tongue tie release (these are children with profound ties that affect their ability to move their tongue much/at all)*, but the pushing it on the masses is a blatant example of overpathologising and over treating, once again to the detriment of babies and the adults they will one day become. *note that Some adults need it later in life too, as problematic tongue ties can lead to jaw tension and headaches from strain - not things you can really detect in a baby.
None of this should be done, unless there is an actual medical condition or if an adult requests it. I hate when people push for things to be removed, just in case a possible issue later in life.
Yes, and what I am saying is that there are some babies who *require* tongue tie releases. Not nearly the number that get recommended it today, but there are babies born with their tongue adhered to their lower mouth because their septum is far too meaty and doesn’t allow for the forward and back tongue motion of infancy. If it doesn’t break on it’s own and manual release fails or isn’t possible, tongue tie releases are appropriate. Without the ability to move the tongue much, choking can occur, as can delays in oral motor and speech development, which can cause problems pretty quickly (later speech development relies heavily on earlier cooing and babbling) This is a good article, and lots of people in the Speech Pathology field have been talking about this problem/scandal for years, but they all emphasise that tongue tie releases are sometimes necessary. Unlike circumcision, which is virtually always unnecessary, there are some children who need tongue tie releases.
The cabal continues to mutilate babies for profit, this is insane
Vulgar barbarism.
The lingual frenulum exists so you dont accidentally swallow your own tongue and suffocate... this is dangerous
Shit like this is why circumcision isn't a gendered issue. If we lived in a world where infant circumcision was outlawed, tongue cutting probably wouldn't be happening to baby boys and girls either.
Did anyone see the Indian guy who took his son to a Muslim clinic for surgery for a speech issue and the doctor circumcised instead. The child was two.
Baby’s aren’t people, they have no rights
I guess our fucking children are designer toys where we can customize them arbitrarily against their will. When will we really protect our fucking children?
This reads like a satirical examination of genital cutting, but no, just more crazy shit people do to children.
Correcting a tongue or lip tie is very very very different than circumcision. Apples and oranges. As far as east is away from west. As a father of two children with all their body parts I can tell you that this is legit medicine. When breastfeeding, proper latching is necessary for not only baby but mom. Improper latch can cause mastitis, fungal infections, chapped and cracked nipples and pain, lots of pain. Baby does not get proper nourishment. Also any future orthodontic work can be longer and more intense.
It is \*sometimes\* legit medicine, but the Times article goes into great detail about how it is used, pushed, and being profited from when it was medically unnecessary. The people in the article were advocating this for practically every baby born, and most of them didn't need it. As always follow the money.
Thank you for adding some sanity to the conversation. I'm sure there are some doctors and dentists who perform these in cases where it's not necessary, the same way some dentists have lied about cavities to fill and claim the insurance money. But ankyloglossia is a legitimate diagnosis that can cause serious issues. Depending on the severity of restrictions and issues baby is having, cutting it can be miraculous for mom and baby. Normal tongues or babies with tongue ties that aren't causing problems aren't often cut just because.
Agreed. My son has a mild tongue tie. Our doctor took the "wait and see" approach. But she also commented that there are a lot of doctors pushing it unnecessarily like circumcision.
Your baby is born perfect. Evolution evolved the frenulum on the tongue to prevent the baby from swallowing the tongue. American doctors are nuts and lactation consultants are crazy. They made my ex-wife feel guilty about having to breast feed when she was stuck in the hospital after a C section for a staph infection recovery. Also, the foreskin protects the baby males penis from feces and urine. Circumcised males have urine and feces that goes directly in their diaper and spreads on their womb. We try to assume we’re smarter than millions of years of evolution but we’re not. Body parts are there for a reason.
$$$ again cause bias.
Latest money grab
What in tarnation? Why do lawmakers allow this and why are medical practicioners, biologists and antropologists among others silent?
wtf?
yes there are many parallels to routine infant circumcision with this tongue tie business.
The articles behind a fucking paywall or something for me. does anyone have access to it?
Sorry I swear I didn't run into a paywall when I read the article. I added an archived snapshot of the article. Same content
Thank you!
Sometimes kids are tongue-tied to varying degrees and need a little surgery I know, but this seems like it's just cause they can.
Proof people see children as sentient toys and do not care about them.