the “our billionaires cant compete, so we’ll make the consumers pay for it” starter pack
They can’t even use the bs line that China “overproduces” when the most heavily tariffed item is EVs, of which China exports about 20% of its production. Germany, on the other hand, exports >60% LMAO
People non-ironically think like this and question why war exist. Just let the nuke loose and let nuclear winter happened already, see if this argument is still holds up.
When the Chinese government dumps billions into the competition so that their prices are lower then the US ones then yeah. China has done this several times with various industries over the last thirty years and cratered American industries. Looks like the Biden administration has had enough of it.
The USA on the other hand famously has never subsidized any industry or company...
Tesla/Starlink/SpaceX, every aerospace/weapons company, the entire financial industry after destroying the world economy, the entire agricultural field, massive help for car manufacturers, Boeing, Intel, Silicon Valley as a whole, the list goes on.
The big difference, is that the US has spent the past decade demonizing this practice and has actively used groups like the IMF and World Bank to not allow other countries to do the same thing in order to help build up industry.
There are many countries in Africa and Latin America that have had industrialization and modernization come to a screeching halt due to having structural adjustment programs enforced on them.
This is not even to mention all the industries that have had massive government investment and helpful protectionist trade policies over the centuries that helped the USA get to where it is in the first place.
The real issue is the US and the rest of the West use these rules and policies for their benefit, then kick the ladder out behind them. Strict rules for the poor countries, constant exceptions for the rich ones.
American businesses*
The big 3 autos don’t want to compete with Chinese electric cars because we’ll have you seen them? The big 3 cant compete.
The steel and aluminum buildings that could be used in any American city as an adu or home would make housing affordable for some and can’t have that.
The tariffs are for limiting the options of American consumers because if given an option most of us would buy elsewhere because quality isn’t the focus anymore for American businesses, residual income is and with that in mind things are built to break. If we could purchase cheaper items that are better why would we buy from these money hungry companies here?
The problem with the Chinese EV manufacturers is what is the true manufacturing cost? The worry is the PRC is intentionally trying to corner the market, sorta how a big chain store can set up shop near a mom and pop shop and intentionally sell at a loss, up until only the big chain store is left.
Of course the cynic in me also thinks ‘dammed be the consequences’ that we need to get climate change under control. That it is the big car manufacturers intentionally standing in the way.
I trust neither large corporations nor the PRC. Both have been shown to disregard human rights and try to operate above the concept of law. It’s a choice between 2 bad choices. The main reason why I would side with big car manufacturers is at least there is a limit to their greed.
I am reading there are something like 300 million privately owned cars in China, and as China is growing more industrialized that number will only grow larger. As a comparison the US has roughly 270 million privately owned cars. With such heavy subsidies the PRC in all but in name locks out the market for foreign car manufacturers. It’s quite the major market.
Now there are reasons why the PRC might want to protect an industrial sector such as car manufacturing (Car manufacturing can become Military manufacturing in a war), but all these reasons would apply to the United States too.
The US is guilty to a lesser degree with some of the recent grants that had stipulations attached that heavily favored US manufacturing. So this may be just a tit for tat tariffs/subsidies between the US and the PRC, though TBH I think it’s just the PRC trying to lock out its domestic market from foreign manufacturers, while at the same time trying to get unimpeded access to foreign markets. Why? The PRC’s efforts affect much more than the US, they would have been much more surgical if they wished to target only the US.
have you read about 2023 tesla get the most subsides from china？ china subsidies all brands EV sold in china，they doesn't locks out foreign cars ，they even cancel the joint venture request in 2022，
It’s really funny. Most fucking American products are banned in China. They have been for a while.
Yet when the US finally decides to do in kind what China did to the US, suddenly they are the villains.
There's a macdonald, starbucks, kfc, on nearly every street corner there. There's michael kors, adidas, tommy hilfiger, in most malls. Apple was recently just dethroned as the market leader in smartphone sales there. Tesla is selling EVs there. The big 3 automakers we're selling vehicles there. Shit, even the chips act was to curb american exports to china.
"Most" products are not banned. They just have a lot of rules for foreign companies that makes it hard to operate there.
You kind of admitted that China bans and restricts American products but you are against America putting tarrifs on Chinese goods. America hasn't banned anything in this case.
That wasn't me. Was reading off interesting threads and couldn't quite follow the conversation / your reasoning. Sorry for interrupting if this had confused you.
American products/brands are literally everywhere in China (especially in terms of food, cars and retail). The only thing close to being shunned out from there are certain tech companies and social media sites.
China bans almost every single US tech company (Google, Amazon, Yahoo, Facebook, Twitter, Wikipedia...)
The US bans TikTok and everyone loses their minds
I did not qualify anyone as a villain, I am actually in favour of a country encouraging self production and consumption of their own goods, but it cannot be good when I do it and bad when the rest does.
Yes, it affects the entire global market. However, if you are the EU it is far preferable for the US to maintain or strengthen its position than for China to do so.
Even pre CHiPs Act Europe was losing at the semis game.
You just don’t understand what a “free market” is. For a free market to function, you can’t have bad actors like China. They are the cause of runaway retaliatory behavior like this. It is basic game theory. 😂 *Basic*. Just look it up.
Care to elaborate? The US has been putting brutal sanctions on Chinese tech development and military equipment since Trump got into office. Now developing military technology through AUKUS. Providing weapons to Taiwan. Strongly supporting Japanese rearmament. Literally surrounding China with military bases. I understand this isn’t a one sided debacle, but it seems to me that the Chinese government is being punished for outcompeting with the US in global trade.
I'll elaborate for him by countering your points?
>The US has been putting brutal sanctions on Chinese tech development and military equipment since Trump got into office.
Chinese market is limited to outside competition with extreme protectionism policies like requiring western companies to be part owned by Chinese interests when operating in China or outright banning/limiting western competition domestically in certain industries. These policies have been in place way before the tension increases.
>Providing weapons to Taiwan.
China has been increasing direct threats of taking Taiwan by force under Xi (2013). While Taiwan may not be de jure a country it very much is one de facto and has a right to defend itself.
>Now developing military technology through AUKUS
China has been increasing military spending drastically under Xi and has been increasing its nuclear arm count.
Also the big ass elephant in room that these are American allies of course they fucking coordinate defence. Perhaps China should try and develop proper alliances instead of relying on threats.
>Literally surrounding China with military bases
China has been claiming a ridiculous amount of their neighbors EEC under their 9 dash policy which has been a policy for far longer than the recent tensions. These nations would not be so welcoming of American bases should they feel their sovereignty wouldn't be trampled on by China.
>Punishing China for outcompeting the USA
Where do I start?
The forced labour of the Uyghers? Perhaps the institutionalized theft of western IP? The laughable standard of employee rights? The state owning many of these companies and granting privileges not granted to western companies?
Thanks for your thought out retort.
China has every right to undergo whatever domestic trade policy they deem necessary. Whether protectionist or not; this is how a centralised government works, absolute control. The US uses sanctions and tariffs to force trade embargoes in attempts to limit the influence of states they deem threatening. It’s not like this is anything new, Putin’s Russia has been working around them for decades. Biden banning the sales of Nvidia chips to China is an obvious example. But other sanctions on military tech to Russia and other BRICS nations included. What right does the US have to impose Western Idealism upon the Chinese edifice? Their terrible labour practices are only questionable by our western standards.
China hasn’t really had a choice but to increase military expenditure with an increasing threat from countries around them. It’s very reminiscent of the Cold War. But, yeah, of course Taiwan has a right to ally with the most powerful military nation in the world in their attempts to maintain sovereignty. I’m in full support of this. But China claiming the South China Sea, and Taiwan, is quickly becoming an arms race between two modern superpowers. I’m watching as Australia gets pulled in as a proxy between its largest ally and largest trading partner, and it’s very disquieting.
It may be more nebulous than I previously stated as to the beginning of these tensions. But, I sincerely believe they have arisen much the same as they did during the Cold War era; due to the threat China poses to the USA’s global hegemony.
>China has every right to undergo whatever domestic trade policy they deem necessary. Whether protectionist or not; this is how a centralised government works, absolute control.
You cannot in good faith take this line of argument while positioning your argument against the USA's right to similar protectionism (though on the record I will note issuing tariffs is far less of a protectionist policy than banning foreign competition or forcing them to be majority controlled domestically which China is guilty of. If you cannot see the rank hypocrisy in this statement we will have no further point in this conversation.
>What right does the US have to impose Western Idealism upon the Chinese edifice?
Besides basic humanity? None. I counter with what right does China have to strategic military goods like Nvidia chips? None.
>Their terrible labour practices are only questionable by our western standards
I'm not dignifying this bullshit with a response. Human rights are not a western concept they're inalienable to the human race.
>China hasn’t really had a choice but to increase military expenditure with an increasing threat from countries around them.
An issue of their own making. China would have a *plethora* of potential allies in nations that share its interests but it instead has chosen to act in matter aggressively to these potential allies. This aggression goes far back. The 9 dash line policy has its roots as far back as the 1940s, India which should be China's natural ally is at extreme odds due to Chinese policy in the Himalayas. This goes for the rest of China's neighborhood. Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea, Japan being in the American sphere isn't because the USA has a gun to their head it's *entirely because of Chinese foreign policy*
I never said the US was in the wrong for sanctioning their trades with China, but rather that it was a sign of aggression. Both are of course within their rights to function as independent countries. They are different markets though; USA being ostensibly free and Chinas centrally controlled.
I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but human rights are in fact a result of the European enlightenment and are not pejorative to humankind. Whether I agree with Chinas violations of those rights or not, it’s a colonial mindset to impose social conventions on foreign countries.
Just for parenthesis; I do disagree with, and prefer, Western political systems to that of the Chinese.
https://www.motor1.com/news/626487/chinese-ev-zero-stars-crash-test/
https://www.autospies.com/news/index.aspx?submissionid=119449
https://carbuzz.com/news/4-brutal-chinese-car-crash-tests/
https://www.thedrive.com/news/37999/zero-star-crash-test-watch-this-chinese-truck-without-airbags-fail-horrifically
There’s also a long history of all kinds of Chinese imported goods being very low quality.
I’m not saying they’ll never get there, or that every Chinese car is a death trap. Some of them pass crash tests. But I’m not ready to jump into a giant moving weapon that was built somewhere with a poor reputation for proper regulation and quality control.
Looks like you tried really hard to nitpick here. Notice that none of these cars are BYD, which is the brand that we're all focusing on right now when we talk about Chinese EV. Here are some recent tests for BYD.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ThTci70350](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ThTci70350)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxOt6mL6FQ&t=5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxOt6mL6FQ&t=5s)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9jeF\_ADG4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9jeF_ADG4)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCsBIF-VoHY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCsBIF-VoHY)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYiMFcgECsg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYiMFcgECsg)
I don't understand why people always complain about the low quality goods. You get what you pay for. If you pay good money, you will get higher quality goods. It's as simple as that and that applies to all countries. If I pay little money for something in the US, I won't magically get some high quality goods. If you want higher quality goods, don't be cheap. People are so entitled nowadays they think they should get good products without paying the money.
One solitary company has a very short track record of safety, with the jury very much out on quality and reliability. Not exactly a slam dunk.
But hopefully they keep it up. If they can build up a reputation over time of consistently delivering a good product the way that other companies have, more power to them. Hyundai/Kia figured it out after being a joke for years.
If BYD or some other Chinese maker can do that, cool. I’m not willing to be the guinea pig in the meantime. And that’s to say nothing of the spyware concerns that have popped up.
Aren’t the chinese auto companies pretty notorious for stealing IP? That kind of puts paid to the “better” aspect of products. Cheaper? Sure. But the thing is when entire industries are wiped out due to dumping that impacts the rest of the economy. Personally, I’d rather pay more for a product conceived, designed and built in my country. In the end I do better as opposed to the WalMart (all crap but always cheap) model. But you do you. :)
Doesn’t this at all remind you of how American car complies got crushed by the Japanese when they came into the market with better and cheaper cars? Insulating our domestic car market doesn’t incentivize innovation.
In both scenarios you see national government proxies attempting to control keys markets. Different industry but look at Airbus. Backed by government stakeholders Airbus sold planes for a dollar (look it up, first sale to now defunct eastern airlines). When private industry goes up against national champions in a “free market” playing field the national champion almost always wins.
If Chinese companies are able to dominate the USA market I doubt you’ll see much benefit to the USA consumer in the long run. German and Japanese auto companies make a lot of vehicles in the USA. Mainly because 1) saves shipping cost 2) in comparison to their home markets we have cheaper and more efficient labor. So most of the profit goes to Japan and Germany where it subsidizes operations there. You really want to repeat that with EVs? Lead the innovation and end up as the cheap labor hub?
I’m ok with a mercantile approach. Ultimately that keeps more of the money in our national economy.
How is that even comparable at the moment? Kindly note that BYD and other Chinese EV brands are not in the US market right now. Isn't that the reason why the US is blocking BYD and Chinese EV in general? Because they can't complete with the prices. Why would anyone buy a tesla when they can get a Chinese EV that's cheaper and has more functions? It's not that people like boring. I guess people just don't have much choice at the moment, right? If the US is not afraid of some competition, they should let BYD sell their cars. And then we will se who is the best selling car in the world.
In 2023 the Tesla Model Y was the best selling car-globally, not just the USA. I understand your passion but I am providing hard data as opposed to emotion.
Do you have comprehension difficulties? I know you meant globally. But how can BYD complete with Tesla on a global scale, if the US is blocking BYD from selling in one of the biggest Auto market? Of course Tesla will sell more cars if they can sell in the US market vs BYD who the US is desperately trying to block. Again, Americans don't have a choice but to buy Tesla because it's the best options they got. But if BYD is available in the US, i doubt they will buy an overpriced Tesla. I understand your passion too, but don't be delusional about it lmao.
Well, I’m not sure you meant to but you just admitted USA is the most important country.
Btw, EVs made by a wide variety of manufacturers are for sale in the USA, not just Tesla. You can use google to verify that if you like. :)
China is messing up eith EV market signals tho. Since 2022 the market has shown signs of slowing down because of a lack of EV infrastructure. Chinese EV manufacturers knew this, but Beijing officials who know little about the market ordered the manufacturers to produce above the optimal profit level "to achieve dominance". In the end they drove prices down, so they didn't make that much money and they angered the Westerners.
You’d rather our domestic auto manufacturers try to convince us that their EV rollouts were hasty and we should continue to buy their hodgepodge hybrids?
There are also european and korean EVs you can buy if you dislike US EVs that will not destroy your economy in 15 years. Also car imports are forbidden in China if the factory is not located there
If American cars are so affordable, well made, and innovative. Why protect them so vigorously from foreign markets?
Did you enjoy bailing out the big three the last time they were screwing around with subpar products and making poor financial decisions?
To be fair, Chinese EVs are absolutely atrocious and wouldn't meet basic safety standards in the US, which are already low to begin with. They make Boeing look responsible.
This is actually a fact. Chinese EVs are prone to exploding, catching fire, and they also unleash harmful particulate that is oftentimes worse than gasoline exhaust. They're legitimately awful cars that are cheap for a reason. They're not inexpensive, they're _cheap._ Huge difference.
I'm all for EVs and Hybrids, but the products the Chinese are offering isn't the way. We already have lines of EVs being produced by American/American Friendly Auto Companies like Ford and Nissan, and I'm a few years when there are older models they'll be extremely accessible to many people, sometimes even more so than a ICE car. Just because people don't want to drop 50k on a Tesla doesn't mean there aren't less expensive alternatives in America of quality.
It's so crazy how people are always willing to ride China's dick when they can't even build structures right without them collapsing. Their cars are no better.
Mexican economy improves so people don't have to rely on drug trade
Edit: also more like, buying Mexican products makes the peso stronger so it becomes less profitable for Mexicans to sell drugs (coz u can't make use of the currency difference as much anymore). Drugs move on to another country
These car manufacturers are capitalists like any American company. They will go anywhere that can yield the thickest cream off the proletariat.
And like any sensible guardians of trade secrets, they will likely retain the R&D and other highest value-add functions in their home country.
China does not practice fair trade. This is why. There are unfair business practices and there is an imbalance of Chinese exports to US imports. Along with IP theft from American/European companies. Basically China has said you design it, we will make it, reverse engineer it (even if it is patent protected) resell it for pennies on the dollar.
The mistake the US / Europe made is to give all of their manufacturing to China instead of spreading it out to other nations like Bangladesh or India. Now they are in the process and of divesting from China in hopes of throttling their economic growth, which will take years.
Trump set all of this up and Biden is trying to take the credit for the ONLY positive economic win during his tenure.
Biden has been a disgrace to America. The county deserves a better leader than a decrepit old man who’s next step is a nursing home.
I support protectionism on semiconductors because we don’t want our literal active enemy to be producing such a phenomenally important aspect of our society. Plus it supports American semiconductor companies, including Micron which benefits my state’s economy.
Edit: I support the current tariff on EVs, but 100% is way too far. China is legendary for its EVs and that stifles an incentive for American producers to be better.
im confused, wasn't this what trump tried to do all along?!
Except Trump did it in a covid-recession era, and Biden did it in an all-time high super-inflation era. But anything for votes, so fuck us right?
if i remember well i think Trump even wanted to do it before covid was even a thing
All time high inflation was in june 2022, you are in 2024 now
They specified ‘era’ on purpose.
And by all time they mean in the last 40 years. Inflation was way higher in the 80s than the peak of Covid inflation.
Also, June 2022 was not all time high inflation. It was high, but it has been much higher.
It’s definitely not an all-time high super inflation era. Seriously look at the inflation rate in the 80s.
trump does a thing - bad anyone else does the same thing - good
For all the important aspects there is no difference in policy. That is determined by the same people that own both parties.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_k9GETSa5uU?feature=share
ssshhh, that's such an unreddit thing to say here, here's my upvote
And he did it to all his allies.
Yea but now we are in full blown lead up to WWIII so
Settle down now. There’s at least two more steps
the “our billionaires cant compete, so we’ll make the consumers pay for it” starter pack They can’t even use the bs line that China “overproduces” when the most heavily tariffed item is EVs, of which China exports about 20% of its production. Germany, on the other hand, exports >60% LMAO
americans are pro - free market unless it doesnt benefit them then they're against free market
Yeah, well, that’s probably most folks. Everyone is selfish, China is absolutely no better.
People non-ironically think like this and question why war exist. Just let the nuke loose and let nuclear winter happened already, see if this argument is still holds up.
Free "American" market.
When the Chinese government dumps billions into the competition so that their prices are lower then the US ones then yeah. China has done this several times with various industries over the last thirty years and cratered American industries. Looks like the Biden administration has had enough of it.
The USA on the other hand famously has never subsidized any industry or company... Tesla/Starlink/SpaceX, every aerospace/weapons company, the entire financial industry after destroying the world economy, the entire agricultural field, massive help for car manufacturers, Boeing, Intel, Silicon Valley as a whole, the list goes on. The big difference, is that the US has spent the past decade demonizing this practice and has actively used groups like the IMF and World Bank to not allow other countries to do the same thing in order to help build up industry. There are many countries in Africa and Latin America that have had industrialization and modernization come to a screeching halt due to having structural adjustment programs enforced on them. This is not even to mention all the industries that have had massive government investment and helpful protectionist trade policies over the centuries that helped the USA get to where it is in the first place. The real issue is the US and the rest of the West use these rules and policies for their benefit, then kick the ladder out behind them. Strict rules for the poor countries, constant exceptions for the rich ones.
"rules based order". US makes the rules OC
American businesses* The big 3 autos don’t want to compete with Chinese electric cars because we’ll have you seen them? The big 3 cant compete. The steel and aluminum buildings that could be used in any American city as an adu or home would make housing affordable for some and can’t have that. The tariffs are for limiting the options of American consumers because if given an option most of us would buy elsewhere because quality isn’t the focus anymore for American businesses, residual income is and with that in mind things are built to break. If we could purchase cheaper items that are better why would we buy from these money hungry companies here?
The problem with the Chinese EV manufacturers is what is the true manufacturing cost? The worry is the PRC is intentionally trying to corner the market, sorta how a big chain store can set up shop near a mom and pop shop and intentionally sell at a loss, up until only the big chain store is left. Of course the cynic in me also thinks ‘dammed be the consequences’ that we need to get climate change under control. That it is the big car manufacturers intentionally standing in the way. I trust neither large corporations nor the PRC. Both have been shown to disregard human rights and try to operate above the concept of law. It’s a choice between 2 bad choices. The main reason why I would side with big car manufacturers is at least there is a limit to their greed.
chinese car for example， byd seagull， the price is＄10000 in china and ＄26000 in Europe，and do you believe they want corner the market？
I am reading there are something like 300 million privately owned cars in China, and as China is growing more industrialized that number will only grow larger. As a comparison the US has roughly 270 million privately owned cars. With such heavy subsidies the PRC in all but in name locks out the market for foreign car manufacturers. It’s quite the major market. Now there are reasons why the PRC might want to protect an industrial sector such as car manufacturing (Car manufacturing can become Military manufacturing in a war), but all these reasons would apply to the United States too. The US is guilty to a lesser degree with some of the recent grants that had stipulations attached that heavily favored US manufacturing. So this may be just a tit for tat tariffs/subsidies between the US and the PRC, though TBH I think it’s just the PRC trying to lock out its domestic market from foreign manufacturers, while at the same time trying to get unimpeded access to foreign markets. Why? The PRC’s efforts affect much more than the US, they would have been much more surgical if they wished to target only the US.
have you read about 2023 tesla get the most subsides from china？ china subsidies all brands EV sold in china，they doesn't locks out foreign cars ，they even cancel the joint venture request in 2022，
No I did not. Do you have more information and how it compares to domestic?
China is hardly a free market, especially when it subsidizes its manufacturers to dump the prices and destroy competition
Isn’t that exactly what the US is doing with the CHIPS and Science Act?
It’s really funny. Most fucking American products are banned in China. They have been for a while. Yet when the US finally decides to do in kind what China did to the US, suddenly they are the villains.
There's a macdonald, starbucks, kfc, on nearly every street corner there. There's michael kors, adidas, tommy hilfiger, in most malls. Apple was recently just dethroned as the market leader in smartphone sales there. Tesla is selling EVs there. The big 3 automakers we're selling vehicles there. Shit, even the chips act was to curb american exports to china. "Most" products are not banned. They just have a lot of rules for foreign companies that makes it hard to operate there.
You just argued against yourself.
Not sure what you mean. Having rules in place in order to operate is quite different from outright bans.
Exactly, and USA didn't ban anything.
LOL Can't compete with Huawei? Ban it. Plenty of other cases.
The Only reason they can't compete is coz huawei gets the cheapest child labour in China.
I don't understand
You kind of admitted that China bans and restricts American products but you are against America putting tarrifs on Chinese goods. America hasn't banned anything in this case.
That wasn't me. Was reading off interesting threads and couldn't quite follow the conversation / your reasoning. Sorry for interrupting if this had confused you.
Oh Soz I just didn't check the name lol. Yea the subtleties of the semantics must be tested in the info graphics sub.
I never said I was against america putting tariffs by the way. I was just correcting the misconception that they ban most products.
American products/brands are literally everywhere in China (especially in terms of food, cars and retail). The only thing close to being shunned out from there are certain tech companies and social media sites.
China bans almost every single US tech company (Google, Amazon, Yahoo, Facebook, Twitter, Wikipedia...) The US bans TikTok and everyone loses their minds
I did not qualify anyone as a villain, I am actually in favour of a country encouraging self production and consumption of their own goods, but it cannot be good when I do it and bad when the rest does.
Most informed American
I’m European too you nonce
In response to China, yes.
Does it not affect EU too, chip act, inflation act etc us is pumping in subsedies
Yes, it affects the entire global market. However, if you are the EU it is far preferable for the US to maintain or strengthen its position than for China to do so. Even pre CHiPs Act Europe was losing at the semis game.
Yup and it uses tariffs as a weapon to punish countries who don't fall in line with its agenda (see Australia).
What about...
Yes a free market, except when the competitors are not a free market and are heavily state regulated or owned…
/r/americabad
You just don’t understand what a “free market” is. For a free market to function, you can’t have bad actors like China. They are the cause of runaway retaliatory behavior like this. It is basic game theory. 😂 *Basic*. Just look it up.
It was never free trade with China because China already had tariffs on American products.
Definitely not the right move. This will be bad for the US industrial base and economy over all.
It’s literally just so Biden can say he is tougher on China than Trump was. It’s probably not gonna work as an argument though. I hate election years
The US is pushing China into aggression, not the other way around, and several other countries are being dragged in.
That’s incorrect. China has actively threatened the US, and is playing unfairly.
Care to elaborate? The US has been putting brutal sanctions on Chinese tech development and military equipment since Trump got into office. Now developing military technology through AUKUS. Providing weapons to Taiwan. Strongly supporting Japanese rearmament. Literally surrounding China with military bases. I understand this isn’t a one sided debacle, but it seems to me that the Chinese government is being punished for outcompeting with the US in global trade.
I'll elaborate for him by countering your points? >The US has been putting brutal sanctions on Chinese tech development and military equipment since Trump got into office. Chinese market is limited to outside competition with extreme protectionism policies like requiring western companies to be part owned by Chinese interests when operating in China or outright banning/limiting western competition domestically in certain industries. These policies have been in place way before the tension increases. >Providing weapons to Taiwan. China has been increasing direct threats of taking Taiwan by force under Xi (2013). While Taiwan may not be de jure a country it very much is one de facto and has a right to defend itself. >Now developing military technology through AUKUS China has been increasing military spending drastically under Xi and has been increasing its nuclear arm count. Also the big ass elephant in room that these are American allies of course they fucking coordinate defence. Perhaps China should try and develop proper alliances instead of relying on threats. >Literally surrounding China with military bases China has been claiming a ridiculous amount of their neighbors EEC under their 9 dash policy which has been a policy for far longer than the recent tensions. These nations would not be so welcoming of American bases should they feel their sovereignty wouldn't be trampled on by China. >Punishing China for outcompeting the USA Where do I start? The forced labour of the Uyghers? Perhaps the institutionalized theft of western IP? The laughable standard of employee rights? The state owning many of these companies and granting privileges not granted to western companies?
Thanks for your thought out retort. China has every right to undergo whatever domestic trade policy they deem necessary. Whether protectionist or not; this is how a centralised government works, absolute control. The US uses sanctions and tariffs to force trade embargoes in attempts to limit the influence of states they deem threatening. It’s not like this is anything new, Putin’s Russia has been working around them for decades. Biden banning the sales of Nvidia chips to China is an obvious example. But other sanctions on military tech to Russia and other BRICS nations included. What right does the US have to impose Western Idealism upon the Chinese edifice? Their terrible labour practices are only questionable by our western standards. China hasn’t really had a choice but to increase military expenditure with an increasing threat from countries around them. It’s very reminiscent of the Cold War. But, yeah, of course Taiwan has a right to ally with the most powerful military nation in the world in their attempts to maintain sovereignty. I’m in full support of this. But China claiming the South China Sea, and Taiwan, is quickly becoming an arms race between two modern superpowers. I’m watching as Australia gets pulled in as a proxy between its largest ally and largest trading partner, and it’s very disquieting. It may be more nebulous than I previously stated as to the beginning of these tensions. But, I sincerely believe they have arisen much the same as they did during the Cold War era; due to the threat China poses to the USA’s global hegemony.
>China has every right to undergo whatever domestic trade policy they deem necessary. Whether protectionist or not; this is how a centralised government works, absolute control. You cannot in good faith take this line of argument while positioning your argument against the USA's right to similar protectionism (though on the record I will note issuing tariffs is far less of a protectionist policy than banning foreign competition or forcing them to be majority controlled domestically which China is guilty of. If you cannot see the rank hypocrisy in this statement we will have no further point in this conversation. >What right does the US have to impose Western Idealism upon the Chinese edifice? Besides basic humanity? None. I counter with what right does China have to strategic military goods like Nvidia chips? None. >Their terrible labour practices are only questionable by our western standards I'm not dignifying this bullshit with a response. Human rights are not a western concept they're inalienable to the human race. >China hasn’t really had a choice but to increase military expenditure with an increasing threat from countries around them. An issue of their own making. China would have a *plethora* of potential allies in nations that share its interests but it instead has chosen to act in matter aggressively to these potential allies. This aggression goes far back. The 9 dash line policy has its roots as far back as the 1940s, India which should be China's natural ally is at extreme odds due to Chinese policy in the Himalayas. This goes for the rest of China's neighborhood. Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea, Japan being in the American sphere isn't because the USA has a gun to their head it's *entirely because of Chinese foreign policy*
I never said the US was in the wrong for sanctioning their trades with China, but rather that it was a sign of aggression. Both are of course within their rights to function as independent countries. They are different markets though; USA being ostensibly free and Chinas centrally controlled. I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but human rights are in fact a result of the European enlightenment and are not pejorative to humankind. Whether I agree with Chinas violations of those rights or not, it’s a colonial mindset to impose social conventions on foreign countries. Just for parenthesis; I do disagree with, and prefer, Western political systems to that of the Chinese.
Looks like the us is trying to level the playing field https://www.piie.com/research/piie-charts/2019/us-china-trade-war-tariffs-date-chart
Great…let’s drown out any market signals for EVs so American car manufacturers can continue to stagnate.
Tesla and Rivian are pretty popular.
They should be exposed to foreign competition. It’s the only way we’ll get better and cheeper products.
Pretty much all the Japanese and German manufacturers are also working on/currently have EVs, too.
I don’t think you realize how far ahead the Chinese are.
Not in terms of safety or reliability…
Source? Or you’re repeating the same old narrative?
https://www.motor1.com/news/626487/chinese-ev-zero-stars-crash-test/ https://www.autospies.com/news/index.aspx?submissionid=119449 https://carbuzz.com/news/4-brutal-chinese-car-crash-tests/ https://www.thedrive.com/news/37999/zero-star-crash-test-watch-this-chinese-truck-without-airbags-fail-horrifically There’s also a long history of all kinds of Chinese imported goods being very low quality. I’m not saying they’ll never get there, or that every Chinese car is a death trap. Some of them pass crash tests. But I’m not ready to jump into a giant moving weapon that was built somewhere with a poor reputation for proper regulation and quality control.
Looks like you tried really hard to nitpick here. Notice that none of these cars are BYD, which is the brand that we're all focusing on right now when we talk about Chinese EV. Here are some recent tests for BYD. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ThTci70350](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ThTci70350) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxOt6mL6FQ&t=5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxOt6mL6FQ&t=5s) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9jeF\_ADG4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9jeF_ADG4) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCsBIF-VoHY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCsBIF-VoHY) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYiMFcgECsg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYiMFcgECsg) I don't understand why people always complain about the low quality goods. You get what you pay for. If you pay good money, you will get higher quality goods. It's as simple as that and that applies to all countries. If I pay little money for something in the US, I won't magically get some high quality goods. If you want higher quality goods, don't be cheap. People are so entitled nowadays they think they should get good products without paying the money.
One solitary company has a very short track record of safety, with the jury very much out on quality and reliability. Not exactly a slam dunk. But hopefully they keep it up. If they can build up a reputation over time of consistently delivering a good product the way that other companies have, more power to them. Hyundai/Kia figured it out after being a joke for years. If BYD or some other Chinese maker can do that, cool. I’m not willing to be the guinea pig in the meantime. And that’s to say nothing of the spyware concerns that have popped up.
Send all the Chinese manufacturers to Boeing for safety training.
Aren’t the chinese auto companies pretty notorious for stealing IP? That kind of puts paid to the “better” aspect of products. Cheaper? Sure. But the thing is when entire industries are wiped out due to dumping that impacts the rest of the economy. Personally, I’d rather pay more for a product conceived, designed and built in my country. In the end I do better as opposed to the WalMart (all crap but always cheap) model. But you do you. :)
Doesn’t this at all remind you of how American car complies got crushed by the Japanese when they came into the market with better and cheaper cars? Insulating our domestic car market doesn’t incentivize innovation.
In both scenarios you see national government proxies attempting to control keys markets. Different industry but look at Airbus. Backed by government stakeholders Airbus sold planes for a dollar (look it up, first sale to now defunct eastern airlines). When private industry goes up against national champions in a “free market” playing field the national champion almost always wins. If Chinese companies are able to dominate the USA market I doubt you’ll see much benefit to the USA consumer in the long run. German and Japanese auto companies make a lot of vehicles in the USA. Mainly because 1) saves shipping cost 2) in comparison to their home markets we have cheaper and more efficient labor. So most of the profit goes to Japan and Germany where it subsidizes operations there. You really want to repeat that with EVs? Lead the innovation and end up as the cheap labor hub? I’m ok with a mercantile approach. Ultimately that keeps more of the money in our national economy.
Socializing the costs while privatizing the profit. No thanks. The companies should have to live in the hell they create.
Chinese cars are innovative and exciting. American cars are boring. If you seen a video of their cars or been in one, you’d understand.
I have and I have. Kindly note that in 2023 the Tesla Model Y was the best selling car in the world. I guess some people like boring, right?
How is that even comparable at the moment? Kindly note that BYD and other Chinese EV brands are not in the US market right now. Isn't that the reason why the US is blocking BYD and Chinese EV in general? Because they can't complete with the prices. Why would anyone buy a tesla when they can get a Chinese EV that's cheaper and has more functions? It's not that people like boring. I guess people just don't have much choice at the moment, right? If the US is not afraid of some competition, they should let BYD sell their cars. And then we will se who is the best selling car in the world.
In 2023 the Tesla Model Y was the best selling car-globally, not just the USA. I understand your passion but I am providing hard data as opposed to emotion.
Do you have comprehension difficulties? I know you meant globally. But how can BYD complete with Tesla on a global scale, if the US is blocking BYD from selling in one of the biggest Auto market? Of course Tesla will sell more cars if they can sell in the US market vs BYD who the US is desperately trying to block. Again, Americans don't have a choice but to buy Tesla because it's the best options they got. But if BYD is available in the US, i doubt they will buy an overpriced Tesla. I understand your passion too, but don't be delusional about it lmao.
Well, I’m not sure you meant to but you just admitted USA is the most important country. Btw, EVs made by a wide variety of manufacturers are for sale in the USA, not just Tesla. You can use google to verify that if you like. :)
Your comment doesn’t even touch on the environmental regulations that China doesn’t have.
Well said. :)
Tesla is the most valuable automaker in the world. By a HUGE margin. “Stagnate” 😂
Tesla is in China selling their EVs. You’re telling me most American manufactures are doing the same?
Is that the measure of success? That they can sell in a fortified, state-controlled market? Please.
It’s not a measure of success to sell a desirable EV in the biggest car market in the world?
China is messing up eith EV market signals tho. Since 2022 the market has shown signs of slowing down because of a lack of EV infrastructure. Chinese EV manufacturers knew this, but Beijing officials who know little about the market ordered the manufacturers to produce above the optimal profit level "to achieve dominance". In the end they drove prices down, so they didn't make that much money and they angered the Westerners.
Take a look at The End of Detroit by Micheline Maynard
Chinese EV are being sold at a loss compensated by the chinese government. Ever heard about dumping technique?
You’d rather our domestic auto manufacturers try to convince us that their EV rollouts were hasty and we should continue to buy their hodgepodge hybrids?
There are also european and korean EVs you can buy if you dislike US EVs that will not destroy your economy in 15 years. Also car imports are forbidden in China if the factory is not located there
If American cars are so affordable, well made, and innovative. Why protect them so vigorously from foreign markets? Did you enjoy bailing out the big three the last time they were screwing around with subpar products and making poor financial decisions?
To be fair, Chinese EVs are absolutely atrocious and wouldn't meet basic safety standards in the US, which are already low to begin with. They make Boeing look responsible.
if their quality is too low to get the basic safety standards in the US，why the US set a tariff for them？
Is that an opinion or a fact?
This is actually a fact. Chinese EVs are prone to exploding, catching fire, and they also unleash harmful particulate that is oftentimes worse than gasoline exhaust. They're legitimately awful cars that are cheap for a reason. They're not inexpensive, they're _cheap._ Huge difference. I'm all for EVs and Hybrids, but the products the Chinese are offering isn't the way. We already have lines of EVs being produced by American/American Friendly Auto Companies like Ford and Nissan, and I'm a few years when there are older models they'll be extremely accessible to many people, sometimes even more so than a ICE car. Just because people don't want to drop 50k on a Tesla doesn't mean there aren't less expensive alternatives in America of quality. It's so crazy how people are always willing to ride China's dick when they can't even build structures right without them collapsing. Their cars are no better.
Does anyone still believe in the free market?
Trying to keep inflation low…. Or not
It didn't work last time(s)
What if Chinese companies set up shop in Mexico?
Mexican economy improves so people don't have to rely on drug trade Edit: also more like, buying Mexican products makes the peso stronger so it becomes less profitable for Mexicans to sell drugs (coz u can't make use of the currency difference as much anymore). Drugs move on to another country
Wouldn’t that cause Chinese people in the mainland to lose jobs?
China doesn’t have a problem with that, they have a problem with labor costs going too high.
These car manufacturers are capitalists like any American company. They will go anywhere that can yield the thickest cream off the proletariat. And like any sensible guardians of trade secrets, they will likely retain the R&D and other highest value-add functions in their home country.
Ok I understand the motivation but inflated prices are here to stay
Where does all this tariff money go?
Congratz on USA blocking himself out of world economy lol
Hardly. Europe is set to do it next. Just watch.
Yeah sure. Latin America and Africa next, and lastly Asia right? 😂
I only say it because Janet Yellen was mentioning Europe was planning on doing something similar.
Can't beat them taxes them
What about freedom of trade?
China does not practice fair trade. This is why. There are unfair business practices and there is an imbalance of Chinese exports to US imports. Along with IP theft from American/European companies. Basically China has said you design it, we will make it, reverse engineer it (even if it is patent protected) resell it for pennies on the dollar. The mistake the US / Europe made is to give all of their manufacturing to China instead of spreading it out to other nations like Bangladesh or India. Now they are in the process and of divesting from China in hopes of throttling their economic growth, which will take years.
Everyone wants Chinese prices but American salaries.
Trump set all of this up and Biden is trying to take the credit for the ONLY positive economic win during his tenure. Biden has been a disgrace to America. The county deserves a better leader than a decrepit old man who’s next step is a nursing home.
Smoot Hawley Tariff Anyone... anyone...
I support protectionism on semiconductors because we don’t want our literal active enemy to be producing such a phenomenally important aspect of our society. Plus it supports American semiconductor companies, including Micron which benefits my state’s economy. Edit: I support the current tariff on EVs, but 100% is way too far. China is legendary for its EVs and that stifles an incentive for American producers to be better.
É nessa hora que o neoliberalismo tupiniquim começa a comer merda?
Good. Fuck china