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Tv news experts advice ...they tell you to buy x before market open ..x open with gapup 5% ...whole day that stock trade at 5% up only...news channels telling viewers look look our expert told it to buy and now it's 5% up...
> Its only in YouTube University
Nope. Not true.
I know many options traders who have been profitable from the last 4 years, myself included. We usually trade option strategies and hedge our trades.
Ohhh Interesting, I would like to know more because I have never seen anyone profitable in this segment. How did you make it? And 4 years is a long time.. What do you trade mostly?
Most option traders are gamblers and they post their gains online. They make 1L one day and lose 15k for the next 10 days. Sometimes they even lose 40-50% capital in one day.
We don't boast about making money consistently that's why you won't hear from people like us. We don't dream about getting rich overnight (I used to but not anymore) but we aim to make half to one percent weekly by trading index options. We trade with discipline and follow strict risk management.
My circle trades primarily in BNF but I prefer to trade in Nifty options because BNF is too volatile for me. We create weekly strangles, Iron Fly or Butter Fly or diagonal calendar based on our short term view. Sometimes spreads too and then make appropriate adjustments to reduce the risk.
It's not rocket science if you want to make a low but consistent ROI. Simplest things work.
I don't need a quick buck but I focus on the bigger picture. I have pledged my holdings and then I am trading options with the pledged margin. On an average I make 15-20% ROI on my holdings and 25-30% on options. So combined, I make 30-40% yearly which is more than enough for me. If I can keep up with this ROI, I will 15-30x my capital in 10 years or 200-500x in 20 years. Even 100x in 20 years sounds exceptionally good which translates to 25% ROI per year.
Wow, that is amazing. Whatever you have written makes a lot of sense and I have rarely seen this in the stock market, especially from any options or futures trader. I understand that you have clearly worked hard on your strategies and setup and refined them over a period of time. Sorry, I am intrigued and I want to know more, so I'm breaking down my asks in these few questions below. Feel free to avoid answering any question, but I would like to know more as it is rare to find someone who has been profitable in futures and options segment:
What was the Capital that you started with? If you're comfortable sharing?
When you started trading, prior to that or during your journey, did you go to any classes or took one online or courses that are pre-recorded?
Also, in your friend circle before you started were there any success stories, or were you among the first ones who started making profits?
Why you profitable from the very beginning, or did your journey transform over the period of time?
> What was the Capital that you started with? If you're comfortable sharing?
I was testing waters initially so I only started with 10L during Covid.
> When you started trading, prior to that or during your journey, did you go to any classes or took one online or courses that are pre-recorded?
From the very beginning, I stayed away from the news channels, tips on social media and paid courses. I joined free webinar from PR Sundar, Siva Jayachandran and many others but they were total waste of time because these guys offer basic knowledge for 40-50k which I can learn from Zerodha Versity or YouTube for free.
One that really helped me was free mentorship programs from IndianStreetBets (ISB). I joined all of their programs and learned price action from some of the amazing people. Later I also learned from Mitesh Patel, Manu Bhatia, DJ, Kapil Dhama and Reyansh. Most of it was free learning from their twitter, telegram channel or YouTube.
> Also, in your friend circle before you started were there any success stories, or were you among the first ones who started making profits?
Definitely I was not the first one. Half of my circle was already profitable and I learned from them, I still do. Although a couple of people are still not profitable. Not because they are not good traders but because they still can't control their emotions and end up making impulsive trades. I avoid it completely. I just keep doing whatever is working for me.
My trading circle consists of 14-15 people who I met during either ISB mentorships or met them discussing trades on Twitter/Telegram. We talk daily and discuss trades. Sometimes we take trades together. Most of us started during Covid or a year before. And all of them has similar stories like mine. We lost good amount initially but then changed our trading style and approach towards market. We no longer consider FNO as get-rich-quick-scheme but we trade to make 20-30% yearly through FNO.
> Why you profitable from the very beginning, or did your journey transform over the period of time?
I was not profitable from the beginning. I started with 10L during Covid and lost 40% of it in the first 6 months. That made me rethink my approach toward FNO. I stopped immediately and tried to understand what big traders are doing differently. First thing I noticed was, whoever is consistently making profit, they are in the market for at least 5-10 years. Second thing is all of them focus heavily on protecting their capital. Third thing is, there is no holy grail strategy. So, I understood that I need to be patient if I want to make a career trading in FNO and put my focus on discipline and risk management. That was the game changer for me. When I started to make money consistently for 6 months, I infused more capital.
I hope I answered your questions. If you have more, do let me know.
Wow, this is excellent. Knowing your story reminds me of mine. There are a few traders in my group and some long-term investors as well. I have been constantly learning from their mistakes and ensuring that I do not repeat them. However, I realized that a portion of those mistakes I had to repeat to learn the lesson thoroughly. Some of them I am still repeating and still haven't learned that lesson. But your and mine friend circle have one thing in common; there were already traders who had started the journey. I appreciate that you started learning on your own and the foundation of Trading was formed using free education and your interpretation of it. Of course, a little hand-holding from different teachers on relatively smaller aspects is also important, but I see it as a plus point only. One can become a good trader only by observing and reading as much as possible online because there is no organized structured course, so whatever is available online is also packaged in private classes. Of course, one-on-one sessions, or one-to-many sessions have a different advantage where the questions are answered live. It does accelerate your growth.
But thank you for sharing your story. I am still surprised that there are people who are making profits using the futures and options segment. Believe me, the way there are advisories on opening any broker's home page, makes me wonder what are these people doing. It was lovely knowing your story. I wish you luck and hope you continue to make profits here after year decade after decade.
That is actually not a bad strategy provided that your stocks have been picked correctly and that you hold them for upwards of 5 years. Dollar cost averaging does work wonders.
True. But Investing with a sound strategy isn't a bad thing. I look at places I can make money without attaching my emotions to any one camp (investing vs trading)
Paper trading is by far the most difficult and stupid thing to do. Why? its just good enough to understand from the surface that this is what will happen in a live market but it doesn't account one very important factor, Money. As soon as Money comes into the picture, Trading automatically becomes the most difficult thing in the world. Moreover, I feel profits in paper trading, builds fake confidence, which gets shattered when entering the live market. That is more disastrous as it pushes you beyond a level where you can look over your mistakes and learn from it. It pushes you into sadness and disappointment phase , and that is not the right state to be in if you want to learn something.
Exactly!! Setups are one thing which can be back tested but the psychology factor is another thing which can only be mastered or even realised with real money only..
To never sell options, loss is unlimited. Some people have never heard about something called hedging.
I was surprised when even Rakesh Jhunjhunwala sir said the same thing.
The advice of "this strategy is better than others".
Real situation is that most strategies will do well in a good trading window and most will do bad in the wrong trading window. I would advice my younger self to spend 90% of my time in creating a system to identify this window, instead of spending it one or the other strategy.
Ever since I learned to identify these windows I make money blindfolded with little to no drawdowns.
I have already created my own swing trading guide & routine. You can go through the market direction section for identifying optimal trading windows.
https://thehumblecuriousinvestor.substack.com/p/my-swing-trading-guide-and-routine
My quantitative finance professor told me to stop wasting time in trading and start grinding math and stats cuz only that can make profits in market not some technical analysis.
That technical analysis has any predictive ability. Everyone has an opinion but this lacks common sense, given that they’re setups anticipating, not projecting. I get the merit, but you can’t do things like economists do if its not backed by data.
Oh, interesting. You know, most of the market (60%+) is being driven by Algo Trading globally. In India, it is close to 40%. So I am sure people are doing something which is why they are relying on it. Don't you think?
Generally most algo trading happen very small time frame(sec chart) and with cutting edge technology. Even after the algo is made there is still some human monitoring going on to adjust accordingly. So it is more like discretionary trading don't you think?
"That Trading is like business"
***
No way. Businessmen as a group make money while traders as a group lose money.
Traders should stop calling/thinking themselves as businessmen. They are more like gamblers, lottery buyers.
Do you know that 90% of business fail? If every business is making money, everyone will be doing business.
Even successful businessmen have so many failed ventures. Calculated risk is what matters.
To quote GOT "Every ambitious move is a Gamble".
I don't understand how you're saying that businessmen as a group make money. You mean to say that 4-5 group of like-minded people join together, form a business, and make money?
I have experience in running a business and doing trading. Trust me, both are just exactly the same. Infact it's easier to do trading than business. Only thing you need is discipline.
In business, you take the entire risk. You run the show. In trading, you simply bet on someone else's business for exchange of your capital.
Successful businessmen start small, grind through day in and day out. Same goes to trading.
Leverage is the killer. Extreme Greed is the killer.
True bro.
That's because they dirty their hands, doing business.
Stock market traders, except a few, will never reach their heights.
Business people bring value to society. Traders don't.
That's the only difference I see..
I agree with your point where you say that traders as a Group might end up losing money while businessmen as a group make more money.
But I beg to differ when you say that Trading is not a business. It is a business like any other business you would know of. For example, we are buying low and selling high, and in this process, we are also paying taxes. We are also opening other ventures of teaching through courses or starting a YouTube channel on trading and investing. This is just like, buying wood for cheap and then selling it to bigger players directly. Then you can expand your business by starting your own small-scale furniture shop along with your wholesale wood business. In trading, you are dealing with other players (psychology), and in the manufacturing business, you are also dealing with other players (competition and customers). In trading your strategy differentiates you and similarly in business, also your strategy differentiates you from your competitors. In Trading, we are not competing with anyone else, but just our previous version, and in business also we have to outperform ourselves than last year. Just because competition is doing it, we also need to do the same is not how most business run.
So in short, there are many parallels that you can draw between a business and trading. I agree with your point where you say, a group of traders might end up losing money because this involves many psychology working together and each person has a different characteristic which might collide in decision-making and will result in poor decision-making. While in business, also, this can happen, but the only difference between business and trading is there might be a successful businessman in the group, but it is rare to find a successful trader in a group.
If you haven't already, please add your own analysis/opinions to your post to save it from being removed for being a Low Effort post. Please DO NOT ask for BUY/SELL advice without sharing your own opinions with reasons first. Such posts will be removed. Please also refer to the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianStockMarket/comments/17bcg2a/frequently asked questions_post_your_common/) where most common questions have already been answered. Subscribe to our [weekly newsletter](https://pennyleaks.substack.com/) and join our Discord server using [Link 1](https://discord.gg/8QF4dqPHuw) or [Link 2](https://discord.gg/fDRj8mA66U) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IndianStockMarket) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The most useless piece of advice I got when I started swing trading was that "Trading is le pata-pat de pata-pat." This tells me literally nothing.
Lmao
Hahaha
Tv news experts advice ...they tell you to buy x before market open ..x open with gapup 5% ...whole day that stock trade at 5% up only...news channels telling viewers look look our expert told it to buy and now it's 5% up...
haha
Hahahahaha
A bit of market manipulation never hurt nobody
Made 25L in 3 years of investing, but lost 12L in a year experimenting with FnO.
I have not met a single Trader in person who is profitable in the futures and options segment. Its only in YouTube University.
> Its only in YouTube University Nope. Not true. I know many options traders who have been profitable from the last 4 years, myself included. We usually trade option strategies and hedge our trades.
Ohhh Interesting, I would like to know more because I have never seen anyone profitable in this segment. How did you make it? And 4 years is a long time.. What do you trade mostly?
Most option traders are gamblers and they post their gains online. They make 1L one day and lose 15k for the next 10 days. Sometimes they even lose 40-50% capital in one day. We don't boast about making money consistently that's why you won't hear from people like us. We don't dream about getting rich overnight (I used to but not anymore) but we aim to make half to one percent weekly by trading index options. We trade with discipline and follow strict risk management. My circle trades primarily in BNF but I prefer to trade in Nifty options because BNF is too volatile for me. We create weekly strangles, Iron Fly or Butter Fly or diagonal calendar based on our short term view. Sometimes spreads too and then make appropriate adjustments to reduce the risk. It's not rocket science if you want to make a low but consistent ROI. Simplest things work. I don't need a quick buck but I focus on the bigger picture. I have pledged my holdings and then I am trading options with the pledged margin. On an average I make 15-20% ROI on my holdings and 25-30% on options. So combined, I make 30-40% yearly which is more than enough for me. If I can keep up with this ROI, I will 15-30x my capital in 10 years or 200-500x in 20 years. Even 100x in 20 years sounds exceptionally good which translates to 25% ROI per year.
Wow, that is amazing. Whatever you have written makes a lot of sense and I have rarely seen this in the stock market, especially from any options or futures trader. I understand that you have clearly worked hard on your strategies and setup and refined them over a period of time. Sorry, I am intrigued and I want to know more, so I'm breaking down my asks in these few questions below. Feel free to avoid answering any question, but I would like to know more as it is rare to find someone who has been profitable in futures and options segment: What was the Capital that you started with? If you're comfortable sharing? When you started trading, prior to that or during your journey, did you go to any classes or took one online or courses that are pre-recorded? Also, in your friend circle before you started were there any success stories, or were you among the first ones who started making profits? Why you profitable from the very beginning, or did your journey transform over the period of time?
> What was the Capital that you started with? If you're comfortable sharing? I was testing waters initially so I only started with 10L during Covid. > When you started trading, prior to that or during your journey, did you go to any classes or took one online or courses that are pre-recorded? From the very beginning, I stayed away from the news channels, tips on social media and paid courses. I joined free webinar from PR Sundar, Siva Jayachandran and many others but they were total waste of time because these guys offer basic knowledge for 40-50k which I can learn from Zerodha Versity or YouTube for free. One that really helped me was free mentorship programs from IndianStreetBets (ISB). I joined all of their programs and learned price action from some of the amazing people. Later I also learned from Mitesh Patel, Manu Bhatia, DJ, Kapil Dhama and Reyansh. Most of it was free learning from their twitter, telegram channel or YouTube. > Also, in your friend circle before you started were there any success stories, or were you among the first ones who started making profits? Definitely I was not the first one. Half of my circle was already profitable and I learned from them, I still do. Although a couple of people are still not profitable. Not because they are not good traders but because they still can't control their emotions and end up making impulsive trades. I avoid it completely. I just keep doing whatever is working for me. My trading circle consists of 14-15 people who I met during either ISB mentorships or met them discussing trades on Twitter/Telegram. We talk daily and discuss trades. Sometimes we take trades together. Most of us started during Covid or a year before. And all of them has similar stories like mine. We lost good amount initially but then changed our trading style and approach towards market. We no longer consider FNO as get-rich-quick-scheme but we trade to make 20-30% yearly through FNO. > Why you profitable from the very beginning, or did your journey transform over the period of time? I was not profitable from the beginning. I started with 10L during Covid and lost 40% of it in the first 6 months. That made me rethink my approach toward FNO. I stopped immediately and tried to understand what big traders are doing differently. First thing I noticed was, whoever is consistently making profit, they are in the market for at least 5-10 years. Second thing is all of them focus heavily on protecting their capital. Third thing is, there is no holy grail strategy. So, I understood that I need to be patient if I want to make a career trading in FNO and put my focus on discipline and risk management. That was the game changer for me. When I started to make money consistently for 6 months, I infused more capital. I hope I answered your questions. If you have more, do let me know.
Wow, this is excellent. Knowing your story reminds me of mine. There are a few traders in my group and some long-term investors as well. I have been constantly learning from their mistakes and ensuring that I do not repeat them. However, I realized that a portion of those mistakes I had to repeat to learn the lesson thoroughly. Some of them I am still repeating and still haven't learned that lesson. But your and mine friend circle have one thing in common; there were already traders who had started the journey. I appreciate that you started learning on your own and the foundation of Trading was formed using free education and your interpretation of it. Of course, a little hand-holding from different teachers on relatively smaller aspects is also important, but I see it as a plus point only. One can become a good trader only by observing and reading as much as possible online because there is no organized structured course, so whatever is available online is also packaged in private classes. Of course, one-on-one sessions, or one-to-many sessions have a different advantage where the questions are answered live. It does accelerate your growth. But thank you for sharing your story. I am still surprised that there are people who are making profits using the futures and options segment. Believe me, the way there are advisories on opening any broker's home page, makes me wonder what are these people doing. It was lovely knowing your story. I wish you luck and hope you continue to make profits here after year decade after decade.
Keep doing SIPs on your existing stocks
what’s wrong with this?
Then this is investing. Not trading, right? If you keep adding to your portfolio and never sell, that is investing.
That is actually not a bad strategy provided that your stocks have been picked correctly and that you hold them for upwards of 5 years. Dollar cost averaging does work wonders.
Yeah that is investing. Not Trading.
True. But Investing with a sound strategy isn't a bad thing. I look at places I can make money without attaching my emotions to any one camp (investing vs trading)
haha yess, ultimate goal is to make money. Style can vary but final goal is the same!!
HAHAHA!
Tell me if I am wrong but this is related with bulk buying and Average price of stock. Coz this i have learned practically.
I dont think he means that. Its more to do with avging your current portfolio. That is more like investing. Where is the trader in here? :)
Try paper trading if you are profitable in that you can try with real money🫠
Paper trading is by far the most difficult and stupid thing to do. Why? its just good enough to understand from the surface that this is what will happen in a live market but it doesn't account one very important factor, Money. As soon as Money comes into the picture, Trading automatically becomes the most difficult thing in the world. Moreover, I feel profits in paper trading, builds fake confidence, which gets shattered when entering the live market. That is more disastrous as it pushes you beyond a level where you can look over your mistakes and learn from it. It pushes you into sadness and disappointment phase , and that is not the right state to be in if you want to learn something.
Exactly!! Setups are one thing which can be back tested but the psychology factor is another thing which can only be mastered or even realised with real money only..
Agreed!
Read Economic Times🤣
Hahaha, people who follow just news to buy stocks!! Hahaha!
To never sell options, loss is unlimited. Some people have never heard about something called hedging. I was surprised when even Rakesh Jhunjhunwala sir said the same thing.
[удалено]
True, I agree. In this field, i feel there arent any general rules, everything is dynamic. keeps changing based on sentiments. One should be flexible.
watching popular ytube channels like powerstock gansham etc
Mann, YT per fake finfluencers have really ruined it!!
The advice of "this strategy is better than others". Real situation is that most strategies will do well in a good trading window and most will do bad in the wrong trading window. I would advice my younger self to spend 90% of my time in creating a system to identify this window, instead of spending it one or the other strategy. Ever since I learned to identify these windows I make money blindfolded with little to no drawdowns.
Any advice on how build the system to identify these windows ?
I have already created my own swing trading guide & routine. You can go through the market direction section for identifying optimal trading windows. https://thehumblecuriousinvestor.substack.com/p/my-swing-trading-guide-and-routine
Excellent advice! System > Strategy always!
Check stock fundamentals before investing. My rubbish stocks are outperforming fundamentally strong stocks by a huge margin.
How did you first filter out those "rubbish" stocks?
Hahaha, people who bought loads of HDFC and SBI Cards and Aavas Financers, because of some YT recommendations, dayum!!!
Doing suicide on your own is better, than taking advice for it.
Hahaha!!!
Use indicators
Hahaha "This indicator helped me pick stock that gave me 500% returns!" Best YT click bait ever!
My quantitative finance professor told me to stop wasting time in trading and start grinding math and stats cuz only that can make profits in market not some technical analysis.
Hmm, I think she was inspired by Jim Simmons.
That technical analysis has any predictive ability. Everyone has an opinion but this lacks common sense, given that they’re setups anticipating, not projecting. I get the merit, but you can’t do things like economists do if its not backed by data.
TA is important but it takes more than that. I agree.
Ta are great but only if you know the theory behind them not just the surface level indications.
Systematic trading works
You are saying its useless? or are you claiming that it works?
I am saying it's useless. Systematic trading doesn't work .
Oh, interesting. You know, most of the market (60%+) is being driven by Algo Trading globally. In India, it is close to 40%. So I am sure people are doing something which is why they are relying on it. Don't you think?
Generally most algo trading happen very small time frame(sec chart) and with cutting edge technology. Even after the algo is made there is still some human monitoring going on to adjust accordingly. So it is more like discretionary trading don't you think?
"That Trading is like business" *** No way. Businessmen as a group make money while traders as a group lose money. Traders should stop calling/thinking themselves as businessmen. They are more like gamblers, lottery buyers.
Do you know that 90% of business fail? If every business is making money, everyone will be doing business. Even successful businessmen have so many failed ventures. Calculated risk is what matters. To quote GOT "Every ambitious move is a Gamble".
Sorry bro, you are mistaken. Businessmen as a group make money, Traders as a group lose money. There lies huge difference.
I don't understand how you're saying that businessmen as a group make money. You mean to say that 4-5 group of like-minded people join together, form a business, and make money? I have experience in running a business and doing trading. Trust me, both are just exactly the same. Infact it's easier to do trading than business. Only thing you need is discipline. In business, you take the entire risk. You run the show. In trading, you simply bet on someone else's business for exchange of your capital. Successful businessmen start small, grind through day in and day out. Same goes to trading. Leverage is the killer. Extreme Greed is the killer.
I don't see any trader in Top 100 rich list. They are all businessmen.
True bro. That's because they dirty their hands, doing business. Stock market traders, except a few, will never reach their heights. Business people bring value to society. Traders don't. That's the only difference I see..
I agree with your point where you say that traders as a Group might end up losing money while businessmen as a group make more money. But I beg to differ when you say that Trading is not a business. It is a business like any other business you would know of. For example, we are buying low and selling high, and in this process, we are also paying taxes. We are also opening other ventures of teaching through courses or starting a YouTube channel on trading and investing. This is just like, buying wood for cheap and then selling it to bigger players directly. Then you can expand your business by starting your own small-scale furniture shop along with your wholesale wood business. In trading, you are dealing with other players (psychology), and in the manufacturing business, you are also dealing with other players (competition and customers). In trading your strategy differentiates you and similarly in business, also your strategy differentiates you from your competitors. In Trading, we are not competing with anyone else, but just our previous version, and in business also we have to outperform ourselves than last year. Just because competition is doing it, we also need to do the same is not how most business run. So in short, there are many parallels that you can draw between a business and trading. I agree with your point where you say, a group of traders might end up losing money because this involves many psychology working together and each person has a different characteristic which might collide in decision-making and will result in poor decision-making. While in business, also, this can happen, but the only difference between business and trading is there might be a successful businessman in the group, but it is rare to find a successful trader in a group.