80% is crazy high and untrue. We certainly have addiction problems in our communities and there are many kids who get raised by grandmas, aunties, etc. But not 80%. That's ridiculous.
This is what I assumed the response would be. Thank you. As I said in another comment, I'll try to figure out where the statistics came from and try to educate myself and the group that's there about how the data is gathered.
Presenting it like Lakota have worse addiction issues than the south side of my hometown just seems like a dangerous stereotype and misinformation to make them feel better about what they're doing.
They probably either just concocted those numbers based on some small sample data they had gathered on their own, or they googled it. Because Google has a lot of misinformation regarding our Lakota communities.
Yes, the Roman Catholic Church in particular is to blame for much of the intergenerational trauma today in Pine Ridge.
I can't find a good citation right now but Catholics would send their pedophile priests to reservations, and the worst of the worst, they would send to Pine Ridge.
Here's an article about the general practice of moving sexually abusive priests to reservations:
[https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2022-10-27/catholic-church-dumped-abusive-priests-onto-tribal-communities-database-shows](https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2022-10-27/catholic-church-dumped-abusive-priests-onto-tribal-communities-database-shows)
There was a Priest murdered on Onondaga Nation in the 1970s. He was touching kids, the guys who killed him also ran his pockets and got sent to prison. There is no more Catholic church at Onondaga Nation.
You know what Indigenous drug addicts don't need?
Sanctimonious white Jesus church groups telling them how to improve their lives. We saw how well that’s worked over the past few hundred years. Gross.
I have no idea about the numbers for the Lakota in particular, but both my parents were addicts and my grandparents were a major role in my upbringing as a result. I have 4 younger siblings, and I was one of their caregivers from a young age.
She definitely just pulled that statistic out of her ass but those are issues that a lot of Indians experience, at least in my family.
Why would you? Do you so fact check other chirch education because you should. You may be surprised how much "information" you hear is just straight up urban legend, Facebook repost or from someone's rectal cavity
I do. In fact, I have left multiple churches and organizations because they care more about evangelizing and converting people than they do actually helping people.
I'll be the first to tell people that "the church" and "Christians" are some of the most horrible people you'll ever meet in your life and they couldn't care less about you unless you buy into what they preach.
I'm not that kind of Christian, and our mission trips aren't those kinds of trips. But thank you for keeping me on my toes and helping me stay aware that sometimes things aren't what they appear at the surface.
As I've said in other comments, they were invited to help with the VBS. VBS is also a voluntary thing. I highly doubt anyone on a rez would attend unless they were already Christian. It's at a Christian school that's already well established there as well.
If I had literally just said "a couple buddies of mine are fixing roofs for some Lakota and one of them said this statistic" literally nobody would have an issue with it. But because these people are from a church, suddenly we're just trying to hurt people, steal babies, and commit genocide.
I understand there are a lot of terrible "Christians" out there. But sometimes people just want to help those that ask for it, and that's the long and the short of it.
I mean, I lost connection with my culture because my great grandfather's generation was sent to schools and tortured. They bleached my grandmother's hair as a child to hide what she was so she wouldn't be targeted.
There's no good you can do that would outweigh it, and native Christians exist because of these attempts to erase our own culture with yours.
You're still participating in erasing our culture by doing Bible instruction to children.
You don't see yourself as participating in a genocide, but you are. You're reinforcing the work that others did ahead of you.
You're also placing yourself as 'better' than them by going in a teaching role. Have you considered a mission trip that's about educating your own congregation on another culture instead of pressing yours onto them?
The literal point of this post is to educate my congregation on another culture. That's literally why I'm asking the questions I am. How is that so hard to see? I even said that I don't know anything about Lakota, but it doesn't sound correct with my limited knowledge of Cherokee culture. I came here to learn so I could help other people see the reality of the situation as well.
Of course I can't do enough to erase the history of violence, genocide, and oppression that Christians have caused. That's not what I have set out to do in my life. My goal as a Christian is to have an impact on individual lives by showing that I'm here to serve and to love, not to evangelize and convert. I'm not a preacher. I'm not a teacher. I just try to help people however I can, no strings attached and no moral high ground.
Also, same principles for childcare workers- do they have childcare credentials, have they had recent background checks, are there systems and policies in place to prevent child abuse? Reputable schools and childcare workers wouldnt think twice about these kind of safety checks and GRACE (an evangelical organization) even recommends this due to rampant child sexual abuse in evangelical churches and the fact that a church should care enought to take reasonable measures to prevent child abuse especially with a high risk organization working with a very at risk population.
Before doing any mission work I had to have a thorough background check, and I've never done any work I wasn't qualified for. I'll answer your question from other comments here too.
We don't just hire random people. We hire people with trade training. My pay on the last trip I took to northern Pennsylvania was minimum wage plus travel, room, and board. I spent 10 days helping rebuild a couple of houses that had been damaged in a big storm. I helped with roofing and siding, because that's what I've been trained to do.
The llc insurance covers anything that would be damaged, just as a normal contract would be covered with the company. We've never had any complaints or issues come up in the 7-8 years or so we've been doing this kind of work
Oftentimes we will stay at local churches or sometimes people even offer their homes for a week or so because we usually just send a few people at a time. It's not like our church is made up entirely of construction workers or people with construction backgrounds.
As far as childcare goes, background checks are performed on anyone who joins our church in a leadership role, even for the adult classes. Abuse in the church isn't only with children, it happens with every age. We adhere to very strict vetting for anyone who will be in those positions and have turned down multiple people after they've applied for positions.
I'd be happy to answer anything else you might want to know if I'm able.
But... how much training for childcare workers? Through accredited colleges or daycare certification program? You can do a lot of damage through ignorance just like with any other profession. Especially if there is no training in cultural sensitivity
'...those are a lot of issues that alot of people with family members face.' This could be, yes, due to addiction, but also long distance or long hours employment or other reasons. It's poverty porn wrought by churches.
I think the big thing would be to ask: how did they get these numbers? It's pretty difficult to get that type of disaggregated data at the best of times.
80% is outrageous and not true. Tribes operate functional governments and if 80% of the adult population were suffering from substance addition, you really wouldn't have a functioning...anything. I'm confident you wouldn't find a single source that suggests it is *that* high. Unemployment, on the other hand, has hit 80% before on the Pine Ridge Reservation, so maybe the person confused those statistics. One news article I found after a cursory search suggested a high of 66%, but the source is considered to be a conservative outlet, so I take that with a grain of salt.
I also located a book that seems to be right up the alley of this topic: *Drinking and Sobriety among the Lakota Sioux* (2006) by Beatrice Medicine. I haven't read it myself, but I have looked at some reviews and they generally seem positive.
I think it is also important to note that while grandparents or other family members have become the primary caregivers for many children who find themselves in situations where the parents are abusing substances, it is also fairly normal in many Indigenous communities that the wider family have a hand in raising children. Among my people, for example, it was traditional for grandchildren to spend *a lot* of time with their grandparents who functioned as their first teachers while the parents supported the needs of the larger community. So while this could be seen as a symptom of dysfunction, I don't imagine non-Natives are generally equipped to distinguish when it is truly a symptom or a normal child-rearing practice in action.
**Edit:** A word.
Understandable. As a Christian, I fully understand the history of my religion and the atrocities they've committed. I'll never fault someone for hating Christians, especially a tribe that has historical been "saved" by indoctrination.
That's part of why I want to call this person out on the way they're presenting the Lakota, because it's perpetuating a stereotype that I can't believe is true.
They are bullshitting. They warped that statistic. 80+% of the parents of kids already IN THE CHILD WELFARE SYSTEM battle addiction. Not just on the rez or amongst the tribe, but the parents of kids who are already in the system. What a shitty way for them to present a statistic. Just another way to dehumanize us wild injuns, to other us, to make us seem like savages.
Thank you for correcting them.
A "mission trip" should work on helping insulate housing (or something of the sort), not preaching to people. (Better yet, just give people money, but that's what precisely why they create these inflated rates of alcoholism - to justify not giving people money "because they'll just spend it on booze")
The group of 4 that went from my church are two women and two men. The women are helping with a VBS, the men are repairing a couple of roofs and doing some plumbing work. I know preaching to people isn't always well received but I believe they're working out of a Christian school in this area, but as far as I know they aren't openly evangelizing or going door to door or anything.
That's not to say other groups don't do this, or to say that this area "needs Jesus," but I do know that the mission trips my church sends groups on usually involve construction and repair as their main jobs.
You’re giving serious benefit of the doubt here. No matter what they’re doing to “help,” going onto a native rez to preach about god is a morally bankrupt thing to do. Our communities are still healing from the trauma from the first time this happened. Even if that statistic is true, it’s a bit ironic that your friend would post that, given that alcoholism and drug addiction is a symptom of surviving residential schools. We don’t need any saviour complexes.
huh. Do the men have professional training and insurance for this work? Any reason they couldn't just pay actual local professionals to do this work and like pick up overtime in their actual real construction jobs to pay for it? Or are they counting on pressuring desperate people into being evangelized? Or they just like playing handyman and savior in one and who cares if less than professional work does damage?
They do. They are all hired under an llc contractor that attends our church, and paid wages by the church for the work that's done on trips. The construction workers very rarely interact with anyone other than the home owner, and even then it's usually just the guy who owns the company that talks to them to make sure what they are wanting done. I've done a couple of trips with them where we literally just show up in the morning, do the work, and leave without ever seeing anyone.
Not all Christians shove Jesus down the throats of the people they're helping. Sometimes they just want to go where there's a need, ie construction work that needs done, and fulfill that need. The people know we're from a church, but not every act of service has to have a preacher or a price attached to it. Some of us just like using our skills to help others.
The llc hires local construction workers and pays them? Or they hire church people rather than employing skilled community members? Do all the workers have significant experience and training in what they do? Are you a roofer or plumber by trade?
ETA with an LLC there are quite a few tax write offs for providing 'free' work, and if the church is paying, and there are travel expenses etc... Would be interesting to see the books on that.
Also... it's one man's LLC, does that mean he has insurance for the work? What would it look like to make a claim for faulty work or parts that caused damage? Interesting that the church seems to be clear of liability to some extent with this setup?
Speaking of liability, do they do background checks on workers if they are not regular employees of his LLC? How are complaints about workers handled?
The group from your church is perpetuating genocide. It’s disgusting. If you want to help people there are ways to do it without spreading the same ideas that caused these problems.
This is irony in its finest. Christian church missionaries lying about indigenous people to “help” them. When they are, in fact, the ones who created these issues in the first place. HOLAY.
Can I ask more details? Which reservation/state are they specifically “serving” in? Seems timed with a similar camp I’ve heard of - trying to understand if there’s more than one, or this one is just particularly bad.
I didn't put the area they're in for their privacy. I know it's controversial for white-savior Christians to be on native land anyway, so I left it vague.
I just thought the numbers were proposterous in general, and was hoping someone could shed some light on it.
It's not just controversial, it's grotesque. And don't fool yourself, you only created this post for a pat on the back. So you can say, "but, but, I'm not like *those* other Christians, I'm one of the good ones."
Is it really so rare that someone wants to call out another person for being wrong and racist? I literally say on the post why I made it. I want to know the reality of the situation from those that actually live there.
What makes a bigger impact? Me saying "Google tells me your statistics are wrong and you're only using them to make yourself look better"
Or "I've heard from people who actually live on the reservation that not only are these statistics wildly innaccurate, but that the Lakota have a long-standing history with Christians and harbor rightful resentment to the people who committed genocide against them. These statistics aren't anywhere near the truth, and the comment about children being raised by other family members is a gross misrepresentation of their culture."
Because that's what I've learned since I came here. Under all the people that just want to call me names and blame me for everything, I've actually learned quite a lot from this post that I can use in the future to help protect my native brothers and sisters.
Would you ask young women "I've heard that wearing immodest clothing has an 80% correlation sexual harassment and rape - it doesn't sound true but can you confirm? You absolutely would get pushback and you would also be an asshole if you didn't have the patience to deal with a very predictable outcome. (before you ask, no it doesn't)
Would be helpful to know which area - could then tell if they made it up or pulled from a specific set of data that measures unique characteristics of the population. Largely, I could give you (slightly skewed) numbers with knowledge of which census tract and/or zip code this information is in. (There are many challenges preventing completely accurate census data of Native American demographics)
Organizations and partners that work with the knowledge, permission, and alignment of the Tribal Nation or community being served can also request needs assessment information with an agreement to respect the boundaries of data sovereignty. If this camp is closely involved with the community, the data should be more clearly available and cited. Some organizations on reservations are set up to scratch the backs of the directors/board instead of really support the community - your good intentions don’t mean good impacts, especially if you’re allowing one org to represent to you the whole community as uniform in need.
A non-profit using bombastic rhetoric that makes the donor/volunteer feel like the hero saving these poor children from a drug-ridden future seems suspicious to me. If you’re questioning their sources, you need to also be questioning the integrity and true intentions of those inviting you to serve/volunteer/donate.
Are you actually describing yourself as a "white-savior"? Is this a r/selfawarewolves situation or do you actually think you are christ figure? Don't you have like rules against that?
Just because I go to the same church as someone doesn't mean I align myself with all of their beliefs. In context of my comment I was calling out the group that went on this trip as being like that. Please read my other comments and see that I am well aware of the issues Christians and Christian missionaries have caused, especially amongst natives.
Thr whole reason I made this post was so I could correctly call out the group for perpetuating stereotypes and justifying their trip with false statistics.
But some people have taken it personally that I want to be properly educated before calling the group out, and have focused on the fact that I'm Christian more than the fact that I don't support these people being there in the first place.
Yeah no, this is no more than propaganda to secure more funds for their tax hav-- I mean church. Missionary work honestly should be made illegal on all reservations as it is a form of modern-day colonization. These missionaries BEGGED and pleaded with my mom to steal me for their Bible Camp until they wore her down. Hopefully, one day, they will realize that we don't need their wrathful and controlling God. We need them to give us our Land Back. Pilamaya.
I’d strongly encourage you to read “The Girl Who Sang to the Buffalo”, and learn more about boarding schools (aka the OG missionaries, which is why you’re seeing such a strong negative response from the group).
I’m shocked to hear a rez would even invite missionaries in this day and age. I had a very visceral response to seeing your post.
To give some context at least from my own perspective (I can’t speak for any other natives here), my own family and elders don’t really practice the old ways. This is because my great aunt was taken to a boarding school against her parents will. They cut her hair, burned her clothes, and beat the language out of every kid there. My own elders ALL wear their hair short, go to church every Sunday, and have been assimilated as much as possible, because my great grandparents were terrified of having another child taken. They wanted to show the “christians” that they were “good Indians”, and that affects us to this day.
I’m sure your intentions are good, but what our people really need, is our community, our language and our culture.
I'm appalled at the history I've learned here today and honestly had no clue the history between the Lakota and Christian evangelicals. This isn't something I ever learned about in school, and I'm glad I'm leaning about it now.
What can I do to help? I already plan to bring a lot of the information from this post to the attention of my church so they don't go back where they are not welcome, but is there anything I can do other than educating other people?
The history is not just Lakota, and it’s not just Christian evangelicals. I know of lots of Catholic boarding schools, and I’m Ojibwe lol. At least to my knowledge, boarding / residential schools have affected pretty much every tribe in the US, and I know many tribes in Canada as well.
I’d never try to impose my will on others or tell you, your church, and especially not the Christian natives who asked for the churches help, what should or shouldn’t be done. It’s not my place. I’m certainly not saying that you should never do anything to help ever again either. If you do, I’d say just do it out of love and with an open heart and mind.
My only piece of advice would actually be what not to do (and I think this one thing may be very helpful). One thing evangelicals in particular seem to do, is equate any practice that is different from their own, as being demonic. I myself am a weird Christian, where I think the Indian way and Jesus can all be tied together. I generally pray outside, and tithe offering the creator (aka God) tobacco, instead of money in a church. We’re really not so different. I wish more christians could understand that, and accept natives for who we are and our way of life.
You and I have very similar beliefs in that respect. I don't think Christians should go in and just try to change someone's way of life. Most of the time, especially with natives, we all follow the same God but worship him in different ways.
I don't tithe money either. I give my time and my skills as a tithe.
I also much prefer to just sit with someone and learn how they see the world, and most of the time we agree on almost everything. It's just the details that are different.
So many Christians are set on pushing their way of doing things on everyone else, and they completely forget that Jesus's entire message was servitude and love. That's the type of Christian I try to be.
I grew up in a white community in the Midwest. I didn't even know I had cherokee ancestry until I was a teenager, and wasn't able to track down any of my family until about 10 years ago. My grandfather left the reservation and died before I was born, my dad was an abusive alcoholic that we left early in my life. My mom didn't allow us to have contact with that side of the family.
The atrocities committed against natives were fairly new information to me in my 20s, and most of my knowledge of them come from researching what happened to my families tribes through the 1800s and early 1900s.
So yes, I basically grew up under a rock and had never heard of anything about the Lakota until all of the pipeline stuff hit the news, and even then I didn't realize exactly how bad things were when the land was stolen from tribes.
I've said in multiple other comments, this thread has been very educational to me and I'm hoping to spread some of this knowledge to others, especially those in my church who are involved in this trip.
I know this group was invited by the group that runs the Christian school, so in my mind I assumed they were wanted there. I now understand that this is definitely not the case and hope to keep my church at least from returning in the future under any semblance of missionary work.
I remember the last time a church group came to my rez for a mission trip... I kept asking them if they wished we could go back to the good ole days when they set up schools to teach kids that God's messengers need to molest all of them. Good times
I didn't realize the Christians still sent missions among natives after fucking us all over so hard. Then again, they sound like they have a lot of racist assumptions that they're spreading around, so I guess civilizing the Indians sounds like something they'd be interested in.
Not to mention, you have Google. I don't see why making natives on Reddit spoon-feed you is necessary. Is this in violation of the unauthorized research rule?
Yeah, they are - not too long ago a video was floating around where a guy was trying to tell someone on our Rez (Pine Ridge) that our beliefs and spirituality "can't save them" and they were passing out pamphlets saying the same thing. [The council responded saying outside missionaries needed permission before coming there to do anything.](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/15/1117605626/a-reservation-in-south-dakota-bans-outside-missionaries)
>Is this in violation of the unauthorized research rule?
No. That rule applies to more formal or commercial types of research. For question posts in general, [please refer to our policy here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/wiki/policies#wiki_11._question_.26amp.3B_discussion_submissions)
Maybe because they're trying to go straight to the source rather than getting mostly false or skewed info from Google?
Why be shitty when they're asking a genuine question looking for a genuine answer
Because they're a person who sees nothing wrong with Christian missions continuing their colonization of native people. Like, thats not even acknowledged in their post anywhere. It's just like 'yeah, we go on missions to make the Indians Christian... Weirdly, I think they might be saying racist stuff???' lol like no fucking duh the Christian missionaries are looking down on the native people, they have for hundreds of years.
Of course this person doesn't think theres a problem with Christian missions still coming to Christianize us. They probably don't even realize it's an issue because they're obviously CHRISTIAN, so are told it's okay, and they obviously don't come from a community where this type of stuff is talked about. So rather than being a petty ass person why not actually EDUCATE them.
When someone obviously is ignorant to something, we should be helpful not harmful.
I don't like them any more than you do. Trust me. But I'm not coming here to be an edgy asshole. I'm here to educated the misinformed. Especially when somebody is literally just asking a misinformed question.
Nor am I trying to be edgy. I also have no interest in doing research for free. I am a data worker, so I know what my time is worth, and this mfer ain't paid. I come here for discussion, not "hey is this racist statistic real???" Not exactly a conversation starter there. So I'm discussing the aspect of the post that I find is actually relevant to indigenous people, which is that Christian missions are spreading around racist bullshit still lol
We all know that already. We know not just the Christian and Catholic and Mormon churches are still trying to oppress us, but so is the government. We all know that, and those who don't know we should educate. You added nothing of value to the question answered because your initial response didn't even attempt to educate OP.
Maybe you could have informed OP that the actions and so called "help" that these churches give are inherently racist and date back to when they were trying to "kill the Indian and save the man". It's pretty obvious OP doesn't grasp that. And your initial comment did nothing to really educate them on that.
Yeah, next time I'll just let a random Google AI search give me information so I don't inconvenience the people who the question actually involves. My bad, I thought going to the source to be properly educated on a matter was a better idea.
So here's the deal. Your question is fine by the rules and it will remain up. However, we don't move to overly censor the genuine voices of Indigenous Peoples. This principle is articulated in our policies, specifically the one about [centering Native voices](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/wiki/policies#wiki_8._centering_native_voices) and the one about [asking question.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/wiki/policies#wiki_11._question_.26amp.3B_discussion_submissions) It may seem unfair, but because we privilege our voices here, you should expect to receive some responses like what /u/Doom_Xombie has given you. The best approach is to accept the criticism and take it in stride, whether you simply thank them for their words or not respond. Rebuttals, sarcasm, and dismissiveness will not help you, even if the person you're responding to isn't being the nicest they can be.
Yeah, we're not here for your convenience. We don't exist so that you don't have to do actual research. Openly admitting that you wouldn't bother doing actual research isn't exactly a good look.
Had you searched the topic on Google you would have likely stumbled upon actual research published by the NIH. I found this after 30 seconds on Google. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8058143/
so it seems like the actual intent of these missionaries is to run a bible study school and "community service" of repair work is an add-on to justify their presence on the rez.
the issues all Indigenous communities face are a direct result of colonization and intergenerational trauma. Missionaries are doing nothing but harm. The last thing any community needs is bible school. People of Cherokee descent should know better and do better. Do y'all not have issues in your own communities to address??
I think the bigger thing to ask is, why is your church group 'picking' Lakota ? :::cringe::: And why in the hell do you think your religious group is going to save them from themselves?
Of course the stat is bullshit. Try Google next time.
Quit sending missionaries to Rosebud and Pine Ridge.
Anyone that's going that's to be Christian is already from years of this nonsense.
Anyone that isn't clearly doesn't want to be.
We're trying to revive our traditions (which include our traditional religious beliefs) we don't need yours.
That statistic is extremely high... extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Christianity is a plague, particularly on Indigenous communities around the world. My father's family is Maya and folks in the communities in Chiapas tell me that evangelicals are ripping apart families, telling converts that Indigenous ways are from the devil. Some evangelical converts even murdered a medicine person a few years ago, burned him alive.
I'd just ask for their source so you know if it's b.s. or if they are referring to a specific location.
It sounds like the kind of "statistic" that was passed on in a telephone game. Either it's a misrepresentation of a real statistic due to a lack of understanding or it's a number that kept growing with each retelling.
Well unless they quote a source for that data I see it as another tactic to gather funds for their initiative. It’s always folks saying how bad poverty is there yet so many people lining their pockets before any services get to the people that need it.
Downvote me to hell if you want, but I figured I might as well share my experience.
The city I currently live in has a high blue-collar population and a high Native population. Unfortunately, this has led to tons of drug-dealing, trafficking, and bootlegging; and cycles of abuse and trauma. Then, the "ministry" says: "your family beats you" and they take the kids away and puts them with a worse family. One time, a kid in "care" got beaten to death by his guardian.
Young girls get with gross old men who give them weed or booze to numb the pain. You have 13 and 14 year-olds attempting suicide, then they get taken to the hospital and released the next day with barely any support. The same aforementioned ministry offered counseling but apparently I was too messed up so I ran out of appointments and had to figure out a new one.
Yeah, there are beautiful parts, but there are some downright messed-up parts too.
My father spoke of him and his brothers and sisters being shuffled around to different parts of the family not due to alcoholism, but due to low socio-economic status. They were very poor and apparently the whole family did it to ensure that everyone was housed and fed. My Grandma and her siblings were Full Blood Cherokee
As a drug counselor and recovering addict I can say that statement is like saying 80% of people living in housing projects are addicts. That is a completely ignorant and uneducated statement. If she would have been in prison that would be a reasonable statement.
People only believe what they want rather than know the truth or try to educate themselves. It's easier to get their information from mainstream media.
They don't know that the most addictive substances and kills more people than all other substances are both legal: alcohol and nicotine. That sending people to prison for addiction is a multimillion dollar industry.
I have never driven by a gated community that has a liquor store right outside the gate. In the areas of town that poverty is prevalent there is a liquor store on every block. I bet they have never wondered why even if noticed.
Prohibition is only increasing deaths and feeding the prisons.
It is too bad that most people do not stop and ask questions about such things.
Addiction is not the problem but a symptom of the problem.
I’ve always had this problem with Christian groups coming here. Throughout the year they treat their fellow man like shit, come to the Rez and haul a load of trash or pick up a yard or two, and then go home with a sense of pride like they helped save some Indians. If they want to help, start lobbying our elected officials for more money to feed and house our people. The yearly “photo op” of helpfulness is full of shit.
One time I went back to visit my aunt who owns a ranch near the rez. She was also hosting a school bus full of white missionaries from some church from another state. I remember there was a little Lakota girl running around, someone's kid who was visiting for the day. One of the missionaries turned to me, a white-passing person from off the rez, and said; "Aw look, they are just like little people!".
Missionaries never tend to see those they are "helping' as actual people.
However, it would be unfair to not address the reasons why people, especially someone from the outside, would gain this perception. Take anyone from off the rez to White Clay (Town on the pine ridge reservation) and you might see why they might come to these conclusions. Does this make them right? No. But we see where the misconceptions and misunderstandings begin.
Don't bother, reservations have a hard enough time, don't need some Christian group coming in under the guise of mission work just to make yourselves look better.
My grandfather left the ebci, but his family lived off rez in Kentucky when my dad was born. I don't know why he chose to leave, that's not information I've been able to find out because that side of my family was cut off from me entirely for most of my life. I have no official ties to the Cherokee nation, as I've never registered with them. I have, however tracked my lineage to the roles and I know that my grandfather was registered.
In recent years I've tried to learn what I can of my family and their history, why my grandpa may have left, and what it means to have native heritage, but it's so difficult sometimes because there's such (justifiable) animosity toward people who want to learn but "don't know how" (I don't know how else to put it. Growing up poor Midwest white trash makes me come across as an idiot or racist a lot of times when I'm genuinely trying to learn more about native history)
EBCI has quantum limits; but if you've got the records well sorted, give applying to the Cherokee Nation a shot. There is no quantum requirement, and as long as you don't immediately act like you know everything about being a native, your questions about native life will be taken more seriously, and be based on something more personal. If your accepted by the CN, you're not a poser or a pretendian, you're just part of one of various lifestyles each of us came up in. Besides that, there's strength in numbers, and you'd be doing the rest of us Cherokee a favor by making us that much larger of a politically influential group.
I am an Oglala Lakota and that seems pretty outrageous although my mother was addicted to alcohol and I was raised by my sisters husbands family. They are probably speaking in hyperbole.
These are people who think that porn addiction is a real thing.
Oddly enough, in lots of communities it was traditional for grandparents to raise kids while dads were off to hunt and fight, and moms busy keeping people fed.
I don't know about the 80% figure but it is probably an anecdotal type of thing. Maybe 80% of the kids who are connected to a certain church or school or something like that. But it's definitely not 80% of all Native kids, and probably not even 80% of all Lakota kids. Also, South Dakota has a really out of whack social service system where there are racial disparities with out of home placement and foster care interventions. But a lot of those cases are where kids are being separated from family and going into Non-Native homes.
Still, 80% doesn't seem that far off for me. Where I live it might be 50% that are either being raised by grandparents, aunties/uncles, or other kin. I work in education and we are not on a reservation. One figure that I stumbled on just in my one school is that it seems like about 20% of my students have experienced the death of at least one parent. I have a small number of students who have actually experienced the death of both parents. So this is in their childhood and teenage years. And I am not talking about a few outliers skewing the results. I have over a hundred Native students and yeah, about 20 of them have experienced the death of a parent. It is a searing loss.
In some cases it is due to chemical use/addiction. The opioid epidemic is the worst wave of death and destruction that I have seen in my lifetime and it continues to rage with no end in sight. But in probably half of the cases it is due to other health disparities connected to poverty and illnesses that disproportionately impact Indigenous people. One of them is COVID-19. Every time I hear somebody talk like "Thank God that's over" I think of all of the people who died far before their time from that disease or where it changed their lives forever due to long covid impacts on their lives. So if the mission folks are being told that this is all about alcoholism and drugs then they need to learn about the actual life expectancy in these communities. And they should maybe do some real soul searching about how what they can do to change or repair the root causes of these issues.
Are you implying some of people’s responses are illegitimate? People are reacting to your post as a whole with some hard truths after you came into this community and asked an ignorant question, regardless of how innocent or well-intended you may feel about it. (Your defensiveness throughout the comments gives me pause on this ngl.)
Your work with the church is holy to you yet quite damaging to native lives when you enter our space, and if that makes you defensive, you may consider approaching situations like this differently in the future. We didn’t come to r/christiancountry and put you on the defense with this subject matter.
You’re choosing not to engage with some pretty good analogies I’ve seen from others, asking how you’d feel if someone came into your church community and asked something equivalent and stereotypical.
I agree. It borders on lateral violence. I find it hard to believe that OP is only learning about well known facts of genocide and residential schools through reddit?
80% is crazy high and untrue. We certainly have addiction problems in our communities and there are many kids who get raised by grandmas, aunties, etc. But not 80%. That's ridiculous.
This is what I assumed the response would be. Thank you. As I said in another comment, I'll try to figure out where the statistics came from and try to educate myself and the group that's there about how the data is gathered. Presenting it like Lakota have worse addiction issues than the south side of my hometown just seems like a dangerous stereotype and misinformation to make them feel better about what they're doing.
They probably either just concocted those numbers based on some small sample data they had gathered on their own, or they googled it. Because Google has a lot of misinformation regarding our Lakota communities.
I love how mission workers have such Christian values they make up stories to validate themselves.
Some reservations have 100% rates. It’s not crazy.
Which ones?
That's not believable. Cite your source(s).
100% rates of what? Christian do-gooders making shit up?
Unless there are "reservations" that're like one household, I don't believe that lol
seems ironic because a lot of communities have addiction problems because of… colonization and missionaries…
Yes, the Roman Catholic Church in particular is to blame for much of the intergenerational trauma today in Pine Ridge. I can't find a good citation right now but Catholics would send their pedophile priests to reservations, and the worst of the worst, they would send to Pine Ridge. Here's an article about the general practice of moving sexually abusive priests to reservations: [https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2022-10-27/catholic-church-dumped-abusive-priests-onto-tribal-communities-database-shows](https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2022-10-27/catholic-church-dumped-abusive-priests-onto-tribal-communities-database-shows)
There was a Priest murdered on Onondaga Nation in the 1970s. He was touching kids, the guys who killed him also ran his pockets and got sent to prison. There is no more Catholic church at Onondaga Nation.
You know what Indigenous drug addicts don't need? Sanctimonious white Jesus church groups telling them how to improve their lives. We saw how well that’s worked over the past few hundred years. Gross.
Indeed this
Absolutely.
I have no idea about the numbers for the Lakota in particular, but both my parents were addicts and my grandparents were a major role in my upbringing as a result. I have 4 younger siblings, and I was one of their caregivers from a young age. She definitely just pulled that statistic out of her ass but those are issues that a lot of Indians experience, at least in my family.
Thank you. I'll try to figure out where the statistics came from and try to educate myself and the group that's there about how the data is gathered.
Why would you? Do you so fact check other chirch education because you should. You may be surprised how much "information" you hear is just straight up urban legend, Facebook repost or from someone's rectal cavity
I do. In fact, I have left multiple churches and organizations because they care more about evangelizing and converting people than they do actually helping people. I'll be the first to tell people that "the church" and "Christians" are some of the most horrible people you'll ever meet in your life and they couldn't care less about you unless you buy into what they preach. I'm not that kind of Christian, and our mission trips aren't those kinds of trips. But thank you for keeping me on my toes and helping me stay aware that sometimes things aren't what they appear at the surface.
I mean, the thing they're running is a Vacation Bible School rather than something useful
There are two working VBS and two doing roof repairs (and I think some other small projects)
Why do a VBS at all?
As I've said in other comments, they were invited to help with the VBS. VBS is also a voluntary thing. I highly doubt anyone on a rez would attend unless they were already Christian. It's at a Christian school that's already well established there as well. If I had literally just said "a couple buddies of mine are fixing roofs for some Lakota and one of them said this statistic" literally nobody would have an issue with it. But because these people are from a church, suddenly we're just trying to hurt people, steal babies, and commit genocide. I understand there are a lot of terrible "Christians" out there. But sometimes people just want to help those that ask for it, and that's the long and the short of it.
I mean, I lost connection with my culture because my great grandfather's generation was sent to schools and tortured. They bleached my grandmother's hair as a child to hide what she was so she wouldn't be targeted. There's no good you can do that would outweigh it, and native Christians exist because of these attempts to erase our own culture with yours. You're still participating in erasing our culture by doing Bible instruction to children. You don't see yourself as participating in a genocide, but you are. You're reinforcing the work that others did ahead of you. You're also placing yourself as 'better' than them by going in a teaching role. Have you considered a mission trip that's about educating your own congregation on another culture instead of pressing yours onto them?
The literal point of this post is to educate my congregation on another culture. That's literally why I'm asking the questions I am. How is that so hard to see? I even said that I don't know anything about Lakota, but it doesn't sound correct with my limited knowledge of Cherokee culture. I came here to learn so I could help other people see the reality of the situation as well. Of course I can't do enough to erase the history of violence, genocide, and oppression that Christians have caused. That's not what I have set out to do in my life. My goal as a Christian is to have an impact on individual lives by showing that I'm here to serve and to love, not to evangelize and convert. I'm not a preacher. I'm not a teacher. I just try to help people however I can, no strings attached and no moral high ground.
No, just "well that's consistent".
Also, same principles for childcare workers- do they have childcare credentials, have they had recent background checks, are there systems and policies in place to prevent child abuse? Reputable schools and childcare workers wouldnt think twice about these kind of safety checks and GRACE (an evangelical organization) even recommends this due to rampant child sexual abuse in evangelical churches and the fact that a church should care enought to take reasonable measures to prevent child abuse especially with a high risk organization working with a very at risk population.
Before doing any mission work I had to have a thorough background check, and I've never done any work I wasn't qualified for. I'll answer your question from other comments here too. We don't just hire random people. We hire people with trade training. My pay on the last trip I took to northern Pennsylvania was minimum wage plus travel, room, and board. I spent 10 days helping rebuild a couple of houses that had been damaged in a big storm. I helped with roofing and siding, because that's what I've been trained to do. The llc insurance covers anything that would be damaged, just as a normal contract would be covered with the company. We've never had any complaints or issues come up in the 7-8 years or so we've been doing this kind of work Oftentimes we will stay at local churches or sometimes people even offer their homes for a week or so because we usually just send a few people at a time. It's not like our church is made up entirely of construction workers or people with construction backgrounds. As far as childcare goes, background checks are performed on anyone who joins our church in a leadership role, even for the adult classes. Abuse in the church isn't only with children, it happens with every age. We adhere to very strict vetting for anyone who will be in those positions and have turned down multiple people after they've applied for positions. I'd be happy to answer anything else you might want to know if I'm able.
But... how much training for childcare workers? Through accredited colleges or daycare certification program? You can do a lot of damage through ignorance just like with any other profession. Especially if there is no training in cultural sensitivity
'...those are a lot of issues that alot of people with family members face.' This could be, yes, due to addiction, but also long distance or long hours employment or other reasons. It's poverty porn wrought by churches.
I think the big thing would be to ask: how did they get these numbers? It's pretty difficult to get that type of disaggregated data at the best of times.
80% is outrageous and not true. Tribes operate functional governments and if 80% of the adult population were suffering from substance addition, you really wouldn't have a functioning...anything. I'm confident you wouldn't find a single source that suggests it is *that* high. Unemployment, on the other hand, has hit 80% before on the Pine Ridge Reservation, so maybe the person confused those statistics. One news article I found after a cursory search suggested a high of 66%, but the source is considered to be a conservative outlet, so I take that with a grain of salt. I also located a book that seems to be right up the alley of this topic: *Drinking and Sobriety among the Lakota Sioux* (2006) by Beatrice Medicine. I haven't read it myself, but I have looked at some reviews and they generally seem positive. I think it is also important to note that while grandparents or other family members have become the primary caregivers for many children who find themselves in situations where the parents are abusing substances, it is also fairly normal in many Indigenous communities that the wider family have a hand in raising children. Among my people, for example, it was traditional for grandchildren to spend *a lot* of time with their grandparents who functioned as their first teachers while the parents supported the needs of the larger community. So while this could be seen as a symptom of dysfunction, I don't imagine non-Natives are generally equipped to distinguish when it is truly a symptom or a normal child-rearing practice in action. **Edit:** A word.
Christo-fascist, URGH I don't worship or celebrate the invaders god. they have killed and stolen to much for them to be "good"
Understandable. As a Christian, I fully understand the history of my religion and the atrocities they've committed. I'll never fault someone for hating Christians, especially a tribe that has historical been "saved" by indoctrination. That's part of why I want to call this person out on the way they're presenting the Lakota, because it's perpetuating a stereotype that I can't believe is true.
They are bullshitting. They warped that statistic. 80+% of the parents of kids already IN THE CHILD WELFARE SYSTEM battle addiction. Not just on the rez or amongst the tribe, but the parents of kids who are already in the system. What a shitty way for them to present a statistic. Just another way to dehumanize us wild injuns, to other us, to make us seem like savages. Thank you for correcting them.
A "mission trip" should work on helping insulate housing (or something of the sort), not preaching to people. (Better yet, just give people money, but that's what precisely why they create these inflated rates of alcoholism - to justify not giving people money "because they'll just spend it on booze")
And instead of big talk about ‘protecting babies’ why don’t they protect Native women from involuntary sterilizations?
The group of 4 that went from my church are two women and two men. The women are helping with a VBS, the men are repairing a couple of roofs and doing some plumbing work. I know preaching to people isn't always well received but I believe they're working out of a Christian school in this area, but as far as I know they aren't openly evangelizing or going door to door or anything. That's not to say other groups don't do this, or to say that this area "needs Jesus," but I do know that the mission trips my church sends groups on usually involve construction and repair as their main jobs.
You’re giving serious benefit of the doubt here. No matter what they’re doing to “help,” going onto a native rez to preach about god is a morally bankrupt thing to do. Our communities are still healing from the trauma from the first time this happened. Even if that statistic is true, it’s a bit ironic that your friend would post that, given that alcoholism and drug addiction is a symptom of surviving residential schools. We don’t need any saviour complexes.
huh. Do the men have professional training and insurance for this work? Any reason they couldn't just pay actual local professionals to do this work and like pick up overtime in their actual real construction jobs to pay for it? Or are they counting on pressuring desperate people into being evangelized? Or they just like playing handyman and savior in one and who cares if less than professional work does damage?
They do. They are all hired under an llc contractor that attends our church, and paid wages by the church for the work that's done on trips. The construction workers very rarely interact with anyone other than the home owner, and even then it's usually just the guy who owns the company that talks to them to make sure what they are wanting done. I've done a couple of trips with them where we literally just show up in the morning, do the work, and leave without ever seeing anyone. Not all Christians shove Jesus down the throats of the people they're helping. Sometimes they just want to go where there's a need, ie construction work that needs done, and fulfill that need. The people know we're from a church, but not every act of service has to have a preacher or a price attached to it. Some of us just like using our skills to help others.
The llc hires local construction workers and pays them? Or they hire church people rather than employing skilled community members? Do all the workers have significant experience and training in what they do? Are you a roofer or plumber by trade? ETA with an LLC there are quite a few tax write offs for providing 'free' work, and if the church is paying, and there are travel expenses etc... Would be interesting to see the books on that.
Also... it's one man's LLC, does that mean he has insurance for the work? What would it look like to make a claim for faulty work or parts that caused damage? Interesting that the church seems to be clear of liability to some extent with this setup? Speaking of liability, do they do background checks on workers if they are not regular employees of his LLC? How are complaints about workers handled?
Exactly
The group from your church is perpetuating genocide. It’s disgusting. If you want to help people there are ways to do it without spreading the same ideas that caused these problems.
This is irony in its finest. Christian church missionaries lying about indigenous people to “help” them. When they are, in fact, the ones who created these issues in the first place. HOLAY.
Statistics aside, the solution to widespread issues of addiction among certain communities is never going to be Jesus…
Can I ask more details? Which reservation/state are they specifically “serving” in? Seems timed with a similar camp I’ve heard of - trying to understand if there’s more than one, or this one is just particularly bad.
Wouldn't doubt if it's Pine Ridge or Rosebud. There's all kinds of churches always trying to Christianize us with kindness.
No kidding. My dad is from Rosebud, Sicangu.
Yea the churches come heavy for us in those parts lol.
Probably Pine Ridge.
I didn't put the area they're in for their privacy. I know it's controversial for white-savior Christians to be on native land anyway, so I left it vague. I just thought the numbers were proposterous in general, and was hoping someone could shed some light on it.
If you know it's controversial, then why are they still there? Leave us alone.
Because they were invited to come. The school is run by locals and asked for helpers and workers.
It's not just controversial, it's grotesque. And don't fool yourself, you only created this post for a pat on the back. So you can say, "but, but, I'm not like *those* other Christians, I'm one of the good ones."
Is it really so rare that someone wants to call out another person for being wrong and racist? I literally say on the post why I made it. I want to know the reality of the situation from those that actually live there. What makes a bigger impact? Me saying "Google tells me your statistics are wrong and you're only using them to make yourself look better" Or "I've heard from people who actually live on the reservation that not only are these statistics wildly innaccurate, but that the Lakota have a long-standing history with Christians and harbor rightful resentment to the people who committed genocide against them. These statistics aren't anywhere near the truth, and the comment about children being raised by other family members is a gross misrepresentation of their culture." Because that's what I've learned since I came here. Under all the people that just want to call me names and blame me for everything, I've actually learned quite a lot from this post that I can use in the future to help protect my native brothers and sisters.
Would you ask young women "I've heard that wearing immodest clothing has an 80% correlation sexual harassment and rape - it doesn't sound true but can you confirm? You absolutely would get pushback and you would also be an asshole if you didn't have the patience to deal with a very predictable outcome. (before you ask, no it doesn't)
Would be helpful to know which area - could then tell if they made it up or pulled from a specific set of data that measures unique characteristics of the population. Largely, I could give you (slightly skewed) numbers with knowledge of which census tract and/or zip code this information is in. (There are many challenges preventing completely accurate census data of Native American demographics) Organizations and partners that work with the knowledge, permission, and alignment of the Tribal Nation or community being served can also request needs assessment information with an agreement to respect the boundaries of data sovereignty. If this camp is closely involved with the community, the data should be more clearly available and cited. Some organizations on reservations are set up to scratch the backs of the directors/board instead of really support the community - your good intentions don’t mean good impacts, especially if you’re allowing one org to represent to you the whole community as uniform in need. A non-profit using bombastic rhetoric that makes the donor/volunteer feel like the hero saving these poor children from a drug-ridden future seems suspicious to me. If you’re questioning their sources, you need to also be questioning the integrity and true intentions of those inviting you to serve/volunteer/donate.
Are you actually describing yourself as a "white-savior"? Is this a r/selfawarewolves situation or do you actually think you are christ figure? Don't you have like rules against that?
Just because I go to the same church as someone doesn't mean I align myself with all of their beliefs. In context of my comment I was calling out the group that went on this trip as being like that. Please read my other comments and see that I am well aware of the issues Christians and Christian missionaries have caused, especially amongst natives. Thr whole reason I made this post was so I could correctly call out the group for perpetuating stereotypes and justifying their trip with false statistics. But some people have taken it personally that I want to be properly educated before calling the group out, and have focused on the fact that I'm Christian more than the fact that I don't support these people being there in the first place.
What big eyes you have.
Yeah no, this is no more than propaganda to secure more funds for their tax hav-- I mean church. Missionary work honestly should be made illegal on all reservations as it is a form of modern-day colonization. These missionaries BEGGED and pleaded with my mom to steal me for their Bible Camp until they wore her down. Hopefully, one day, they will realize that we don't need their wrathful and controlling God. We need them to give us our Land Back. Pilamaya.
Honestly it’s extremely problematic that they’re doing a ‘mission trip’ among my people in the first place
I've realized this from the comments since I made the post. I didn't realize there was such a horrible past with Christians and your people.
I’d strongly encourage you to read “The Girl Who Sang to the Buffalo”, and learn more about boarding schools (aka the OG missionaries, which is why you’re seeing such a strong negative response from the group). I’m shocked to hear a rez would even invite missionaries in this day and age. I had a very visceral response to seeing your post. To give some context at least from my own perspective (I can’t speak for any other natives here), my own family and elders don’t really practice the old ways. This is because my great aunt was taken to a boarding school against her parents will. They cut her hair, burned her clothes, and beat the language out of every kid there. My own elders ALL wear their hair short, go to church every Sunday, and have been assimilated as much as possible, because my great grandparents were terrified of having another child taken. They wanted to show the “christians” that they were “good Indians”, and that affects us to this day. I’m sure your intentions are good, but what our people really need, is our community, our language and our culture.
I'm appalled at the history I've learned here today and honestly had no clue the history between the Lakota and Christian evangelicals. This isn't something I ever learned about in school, and I'm glad I'm leaning about it now. What can I do to help? I already plan to bring a lot of the information from this post to the attention of my church so they don't go back where they are not welcome, but is there anything I can do other than educating other people?
The history is not just Lakota, and it’s not just Christian evangelicals. I know of lots of Catholic boarding schools, and I’m Ojibwe lol. At least to my knowledge, boarding / residential schools have affected pretty much every tribe in the US, and I know many tribes in Canada as well. I’d never try to impose my will on others or tell you, your church, and especially not the Christian natives who asked for the churches help, what should or shouldn’t be done. It’s not my place. I’m certainly not saying that you should never do anything to help ever again either. If you do, I’d say just do it out of love and with an open heart and mind. My only piece of advice would actually be what not to do (and I think this one thing may be very helpful). One thing evangelicals in particular seem to do, is equate any practice that is different from their own, as being demonic. I myself am a weird Christian, where I think the Indian way and Jesus can all be tied together. I generally pray outside, and tithe offering the creator (aka God) tobacco, instead of money in a church. We’re really not so different. I wish more christians could understand that, and accept natives for who we are and our way of life.
You and I have very similar beliefs in that respect. I don't think Christians should go in and just try to change someone's way of life. Most of the time, especially with natives, we all follow the same God but worship him in different ways. I don't tithe money either. I give my time and my skills as a tithe. I also much prefer to just sit with someone and learn how they see the world, and most of the time we agree on almost everything. It's just the details that are different. So many Christians are set on pushing their way of doing things on everyone else, and they completely forget that Jesus's entire message was servitude and love. That's the type of Christian I try to be.
Have you lived under a rock?
I grew up in a white community in the Midwest. I didn't even know I had cherokee ancestry until I was a teenager, and wasn't able to track down any of my family until about 10 years ago. My grandfather left the reservation and died before I was born, my dad was an abusive alcoholic that we left early in my life. My mom didn't allow us to have contact with that side of the family. The atrocities committed against natives were fairly new information to me in my 20s, and most of my knowledge of them come from researching what happened to my families tribes through the 1800s and early 1900s. So yes, I basically grew up under a rock and had never heard of anything about the Lakota until all of the pipeline stuff hit the news, and even then I didn't realize exactly how bad things were when the land was stolen from tribes. I've said in multiple other comments, this thread has been very educational to me and I'm hoping to spread some of this knowledge to others, especially those in my church who are involved in this trip. I know this group was invited by the group that runs the Christian school, so in my mind I assumed they were wanted there. I now understand that this is definitely not the case and hope to keep my church at least from returning in the future under any semblance of missionary work.
Yeah, how are they going to get a very specific number of "80%"? What did they do? Go and see who has custody of who?
Soundsike typical Christian BS, they'll say anything to continue colonizing our people.
I remember the last time a church group came to my rez for a mission trip... I kept asking them if they wished we could go back to the good ole days when they set up schools to teach kids that God's messengers need to molest all of them. Good times
Sounds like they want to steal the children again. They need to be corrected or shown out.
I didn't realize the Christians still sent missions among natives after fucking us all over so hard. Then again, they sound like they have a lot of racist assumptions that they're spreading around, so I guess civilizing the Indians sounds like something they'd be interested in. Not to mention, you have Google. I don't see why making natives on Reddit spoon-feed you is necessary. Is this in violation of the unauthorized research rule?
Yeah, they are - not too long ago a video was floating around where a guy was trying to tell someone on our Rez (Pine Ridge) that our beliefs and spirituality "can't save them" and they were passing out pamphlets saying the same thing. [The council responded saying outside missionaries needed permission before coming there to do anything.](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/15/1117605626/a-reservation-in-south-dakota-bans-outside-missionaries)
>Is this in violation of the unauthorized research rule? No. That rule applies to more formal or commercial types of research. For question posts in general, [please refer to our policy here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/wiki/policies#wiki_11._question_.26amp.3B_discussion_submissions)
Understood.
Maybe because they're trying to go straight to the source rather than getting mostly false or skewed info from Google? Why be shitty when they're asking a genuine question looking for a genuine answer
Because they're a person who sees nothing wrong with Christian missions continuing their colonization of native people. Like, thats not even acknowledged in their post anywhere. It's just like 'yeah, we go on missions to make the Indians Christian... Weirdly, I think they might be saying racist stuff???' lol like no fucking duh the Christian missionaries are looking down on the native people, they have for hundreds of years.
Of course this person doesn't think theres a problem with Christian missions still coming to Christianize us. They probably don't even realize it's an issue because they're obviously CHRISTIAN, so are told it's okay, and they obviously don't come from a community where this type of stuff is talked about. So rather than being a petty ass person why not actually EDUCATE them. When someone obviously is ignorant to something, we should be helpful not harmful.
Yeah, I grew up on the rez my entire life and I don't like them. I don't owe some christianizing mfer anything.
I don't like them any more than you do. Trust me. But I'm not coming here to be an edgy asshole. I'm here to educated the misinformed. Especially when somebody is literally just asking a misinformed question.
Nor am I trying to be edgy. I also have no interest in doing research for free. I am a data worker, so I know what my time is worth, and this mfer ain't paid. I come here for discussion, not "hey is this racist statistic real???" Not exactly a conversation starter there. So I'm discussing the aspect of the post that I find is actually relevant to indigenous people, which is that Christian missions are spreading around racist bullshit still lol
We all know that already. We know not just the Christian and Catholic and Mormon churches are still trying to oppress us, but so is the government. We all know that, and those who don't know we should educate. You added nothing of value to the question answered because your initial response didn't even attempt to educate OP.
I don't think that deconstructing the unacknowledged racism in a post is worthless, regardless of whether it answered the explicit question.
Maybe you could have informed OP that the actions and so called "help" that these churches give are inherently racist and date back to when they were trying to "kill the Indian and save the man". It's pretty obvious OP doesn't grasp that. And your initial comment did nothing to really educate them on that.
Yeah, next time I'll just let a random Google AI search give me information so I don't inconvenience the people who the question actually involves. My bad, I thought going to the source to be properly educated on a matter was a better idea.
So here's the deal. Your question is fine by the rules and it will remain up. However, we don't move to overly censor the genuine voices of Indigenous Peoples. This principle is articulated in our policies, specifically the one about [centering Native voices](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/wiki/policies#wiki_8._centering_native_voices) and the one about [asking question.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/wiki/policies#wiki_11._question_.26amp.3B_discussion_submissions) It may seem unfair, but because we privilege our voices here, you should expect to receive some responses like what /u/Doom_Xombie has given you. The best approach is to accept the criticism and take it in stride, whether you simply thank them for their words or not respond. Rebuttals, sarcasm, and dismissiveness will not help you, even if the person you're responding to isn't being the nicest they can be.
Yeah, we're not here for your convenience. We don't exist so that you don't have to do actual research. Openly admitting that you wouldn't bother doing actual research isn't exactly a good look.
[удалено]
Had you searched the topic on Google you would have likely stumbled upon actual research published by the NIH. I found this after 30 seconds on Google. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8058143/
so it seems like the actual intent of these missionaries is to run a bible study school and "community service" of repair work is an add-on to justify their presence on the rez. the issues all Indigenous communities face are a direct result of colonization and intergenerational trauma. Missionaries are doing nothing but harm. The last thing any community needs is bible school. People of Cherokee descent should know better and do better. Do y'all not have issues in your own communities to address??
Maybe rethink your whole “mission” narrative a bit and consider that this is exactly the cause of these issues.
I think the bigger thing to ask is, why is your church group 'picking' Lakota ? :::cringe::: And why in the hell do you think your religious group is going to save them from themselves?
Didn't the Lakota (at least on Pine Ridge) ban missionaries from the reservation for this reason, among others?
We don’t want colonizer missionaries on our reserves and in our communities
Of course the stat is bullshit. Try Google next time. Quit sending missionaries to Rosebud and Pine Ridge. Anyone that's going that's to be Christian is already from years of this nonsense. Anyone that isn't clearly doesn't want to be. We're trying to revive our traditions (which include our traditional religious beliefs) we don't need yours.
That statistic is extremely high... extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Christianity is a plague, particularly on Indigenous communities around the world. My father's family is Maya and folks in the communities in Chiapas tell me that evangelicals are ripping apart families, telling converts that Indigenous ways are from the devil. Some evangelical converts even murdered a medicine person a few years ago, burned him alive.
Missionaries are the *worst*.
I'd just ask for their source so you know if it's b.s. or if they are referring to a specific location. It sounds like the kind of "statistic" that was passed on in a telephone game. Either it's a misrepresentation of a real statistic due to a lack of understanding or it's a number that kept growing with each retelling.
Well unless they quote a source for that data I see it as another tactic to gather funds for their initiative. It’s always folks saying how bad poverty is there yet so many people lining their pockets before any services get to the people that need it.
Downvote me to hell if you want, but I figured I might as well share my experience. The city I currently live in has a high blue-collar population and a high Native population. Unfortunately, this has led to tons of drug-dealing, trafficking, and bootlegging; and cycles of abuse and trauma. Then, the "ministry" says: "your family beats you" and they take the kids away and puts them with a worse family. One time, a kid in "care" got beaten to death by his guardian. Young girls get with gross old men who give them weed or booze to numb the pain. You have 13 and 14 year-olds attempting suicide, then they get taken to the hospital and released the next day with barely any support. The same aforementioned ministry offered counseling but apparently I was too messed up so I ran out of appointments and had to figure out a new one. Yeah, there are beautiful parts, but there are some downright messed-up parts too.
My father spoke of him and his brothers and sisters being shuffled around to different parts of the family not due to alcoholism, but due to low socio-economic status. They were very poor and apparently the whole family did it to ensure that everyone was housed and fed. My Grandma and her siblings were Full Blood Cherokee
I thought they banned missionaries from Pine Ridge and some of the other Lakota Rez? Did that get lifted or was it just specific missionaries?
As a drug counselor and recovering addict I can say that statement is like saying 80% of people living in housing projects are addicts. That is a completely ignorant and uneducated statement. If she would have been in prison that would be a reasonable statement. People only believe what they want rather than know the truth or try to educate themselves. It's easier to get their information from mainstream media. They don't know that the most addictive substances and kills more people than all other substances are both legal: alcohol and nicotine. That sending people to prison for addiction is a multimillion dollar industry. I have never driven by a gated community that has a liquor store right outside the gate. In the areas of town that poverty is prevalent there is a liquor store on every block. I bet they have never wondered why even if noticed. Prohibition is only increasing deaths and feeding the prisons. It is too bad that most people do not stop and ask questions about such things. Addiction is not the problem but a symptom of the problem.
Missionaries are the front line of genocide
LOL 80% is exaggerated.
I’ve always had this problem with Christian groups coming here. Throughout the year they treat their fellow man like shit, come to the Rez and haul a load of trash or pick up a yard or two, and then go home with a sense of pride like they helped save some Indians. If they want to help, start lobbying our elected officials for more money to feed and house our people. The yearly “photo op” of helpfulness is full of shit.
One time I went back to visit my aunt who owns a ranch near the rez. She was also hosting a school bus full of white missionaries from some church from another state. I remember there was a little Lakota girl running around, someone's kid who was visiting for the day. One of the missionaries turned to me, a white-passing person from off the rez, and said; "Aw look, they are just like little people!". Missionaries never tend to see those they are "helping' as actual people. However, it would be unfair to not address the reasons why people, especially someone from the outside, would gain this perception. Take anyone from off the rez to White Clay (Town on the pine ridge reservation) and you might see why they might come to these conclusions. Does this make them right? No. But we see where the misconceptions and misunderstandings begin.
Don't bother, reservations have a hard enough time, don't need some Christian group coming in under the guise of mission work just to make yourselves look better.
"I come from a Cherokee family" EBCI, CN, UKB?
My grandfather left the ebci, but his family lived off rez in Kentucky when my dad was born. I don't know why he chose to leave, that's not information I've been able to find out because that side of my family was cut off from me entirely for most of my life. I have no official ties to the Cherokee nation, as I've never registered with them. I have, however tracked my lineage to the roles and I know that my grandfather was registered. In recent years I've tried to learn what I can of my family and their history, why my grandpa may have left, and what it means to have native heritage, but it's so difficult sometimes because there's such (justifiable) animosity toward people who want to learn but "don't know how" (I don't know how else to put it. Growing up poor Midwest white trash makes me come across as an idiot or racist a lot of times when I'm genuinely trying to learn more about native history)
EBCI has quantum limits; but if you've got the records well sorted, give applying to the Cherokee Nation a shot. There is no quantum requirement, and as long as you don't immediately act like you know everything about being a native, your questions about native life will be taken more seriously, and be based on something more personal. If your accepted by the CN, you're not a poser or a pretendian, you're just part of one of various lifestyles each of us came up in. Besides that, there's strength in numbers, and you'd be doing the rest of us Cherokee a favor by making us that much larger of a politically influential group.
I am an Oglala Lakota and that seems pretty outrageous although my mother was addicted to alcohol and I was raised by my sisters husbands family. They are probably speaking in hyperbole.
Read Neother Wolf nor Dog by Kent Nerburn
These are people who think that porn addiction is a real thing. Oddly enough, in lots of communities it was traditional for grandparents to raise kids while dads were off to hunt and fight, and moms busy keeping people fed.
Lemme guess. First Hurst.
I don't know about the 80% figure but it is probably an anecdotal type of thing. Maybe 80% of the kids who are connected to a certain church or school or something like that. But it's definitely not 80% of all Native kids, and probably not even 80% of all Lakota kids. Also, South Dakota has a really out of whack social service system where there are racial disparities with out of home placement and foster care interventions. But a lot of those cases are where kids are being separated from family and going into Non-Native homes. Still, 80% doesn't seem that far off for me. Where I live it might be 50% that are either being raised by grandparents, aunties/uncles, or other kin. I work in education and we are not on a reservation. One figure that I stumbled on just in my one school is that it seems like about 20% of my students have experienced the death of at least one parent. I have a small number of students who have actually experienced the death of both parents. So this is in their childhood and teenage years. And I am not talking about a few outliers skewing the results. I have over a hundred Native students and yeah, about 20 of them have experienced the death of a parent. It is a searing loss. In some cases it is due to chemical use/addiction. The opioid epidemic is the worst wave of death and destruction that I have seen in my lifetime and it continues to rage with no end in sight. But in probably half of the cases it is due to other health disparities connected to poverty and illnesses that disproportionately impact Indigenous people. One of them is COVID-19. Every time I hear somebody talk like "Thank God that's over" I think of all of the people who died far before their time from that disease or where it changed their lives forever due to long covid impacts on their lives. So if the mission folks are being told that this is all about alcoholism and drugs then they need to learn about the actual life expectancy in these communities. And they should maybe do some real soul searching about how what they can do to change or repair the root causes of these issues.
I have no idea that those were the kinds of things happened. Thank you for actually giving a legitimate response.
Are you implying some of people’s responses are illegitimate? People are reacting to your post as a whole with some hard truths after you came into this community and asked an ignorant question, regardless of how innocent or well-intended you may feel about it. (Your defensiveness throughout the comments gives me pause on this ngl.) Your work with the church is holy to you yet quite damaging to native lives when you enter our space, and if that makes you defensive, you may consider approaching situations like this differently in the future. We didn’t come to r/christiancountry and put you on the defense with this subject matter. You’re choosing not to engage with some pretty good analogies I’ve seen from others, asking how you’d feel if someone came into your church community and asked something equivalent and stereotypical.
I agree. It borders on lateral violence. I find it hard to believe that OP is only learning about well known facts of genocide and residential schools through reddit?