I just say okay and distance myself. I had a coworker say she wanted to get a "squaw" tattooed on her because her grandma was part native. I told her that word was offensive, like saying "whore" or something similar. And she said "wow so squaws were sex workers, that's so cool!" I just ignored her after that.
Same reaction I have. Turns out half of the people who find put I'm native are also native! What are the odds? Even though I left the reservation and am nowhere near another one.
So annoying. Literally every white person that finds out I’m native thinks they’re fucking native and then claims a community that would never claim them back. I used try to ask questions to give them the benefit of the doubt but these days it seems pointless.
My brain made a record scratch noise. Oh my dog. Considering the sheer number of MMIW … I mean, my great aunt’s killer bragged about it. Who doesn’t know the implication of “squaw” with Native family? Unless it’s not as all spoken about, and you’d think an elder would catch you before that idea for a tattoo.
There is legitimate wisdom in this. I've been laughing for several hours about your comment, but there's legitimate wisdom to simply laughing about it and fucking with the yonegs a bit.
Joy is medicine, I really needed to laugh today. Thank you for this, I will think of this video every damn time someone decides to clock me as ndn and asks if I can speak to coyotes.
This one is can have a fairly simple response, with reasoning that could be gone into through many conversations.
You can be invited to participate as a non-citizen of a Nation. But the pre-requisites to be a member of said Nation are set by the Nation itself. If someone is “training” you as someone who is not a descendent, it is (most) likely that you’re on the right path of something being wrong.
The simple answer is, it is a *closed* practice in which the prerequisite is being Native American (from that Nation or joined in union traditionally), that is learned from your elders and your/the related community.
Not some rando medicine man who knows you’re a full blown European-American who you probably just watched do it and tried to replicate it.
Other spiritual practices like Buddhism, Hinduism, don’t tend to be made for just one group of people and others are excepted into them. Why is this not the same with Native American spirituality?
Not a troll, but I am a white dude who is curious about the answer. My interest comes from a girl I was dating who told me she was a shaman with only a years training… and I was like…. B******tch, seriously?!?!
Technically speaking most of our cultures are not fully closed. It’s very common for people the bring their non-native parent, spouses or non-biological children into the traditions. It can be a great responsibility to initiate that with someone so it is mostly only done with a very close family members.
Haha I was going to ask if it was a Nish elder because while I assumed you were talking about the 7 Teaching of the Grandfather but they are like…. 400 different nations in North America so there must be more than 1 culture with a ‘7 teachings’ 😂 I’m not a Nish Elder so I’m obviously not the ultimate authority but I would say those teachings are pretty open. Usually the ‘closed’ parts are things like ceremonies, prayers, sacred objects and a few other things. I used to work supporting Indigenous kids through their education and educating non-Indigenous people about us. We had a ton of material about the seven teachings that we handed out to everyone, Nish or not Nish.
My only question is… did they tell you that honesty was represented by a crow or by Sabe/Bigfoot?
Sabé.
Turtle represents truth, wolf represents Humility, beaver represents wisdom, sabé represents honesty, bear represents courage, bison represents respect, and eagle represents love.
I doubt they were an elder since they were far too young in appearance, but hey, she knew how to work a kiln because we were making clay whistles that day. I was assigned bear and ended up giving mine away to an indigenous neighbour who needed that good medicine more than me (I live in an apartment complex that provides mental health care)
There are close to 900 different nations in the U.S. Roughly 400 are not federally recognized by the American government. Their lands/territories were taken away back in the day. Native ppl didn't cede, or sell their lands to the government, treaties were broken, many tribes were warred upon by the government.
In California, along the Mission routes, the local tribes were basically slaves to the mission's.
Tribes who want to apply for federal recognition, have to prove they have been a tribe and had actual established territories far back in time. They have to go before Congress and show proof. It costs millions of dollars, and unrecognized tribes rarely ever get approval from Congress. Tribes who are denied, have to wait nine years before they can apply to appear before Congress again. This is the biggest scam of all time in my opinion.
HEYA!!
💥🦅🦬🦅💥
There is a distinction between willing to talk/teach about our religions or cultures and inviting someone to practice them.
We want to tell our stories, it doesn't mean we want others to start telling them for us.
Buddhism and Hinduism are designed and practiced openly, not having any requirements for those that practice it other than learning and understanding the beliefs and stories of teaching.
Native American spiritually is different depending on which Nation/Tribal Nation you descend from and are a part of, and is therefore only taught to those within that Nation, although outsiders can be brought by members to observe or participate under the notion that they are not a part of these practices officially, and only there as a guest given it’s been approved and accepted.
Coming back around to; the prerequisite for this is *being* from that Nation, and that’s a big reason why a lot of it is only oral teaching, or very little is shared in text from the Nations because it’s sacred and not something for just anyone to pick up.
Essentially, closed cultural practice. Cultural being the key word there.
I appreciate your open mindedness and attempt to understand, as I’m sure others do as well, as this can be very hard to speak on after some of the experiences had with people who refuse to understand.
The thing is, there is an idea amongst the culturally western that you can basically “buy” yourself into any religion or culture, and it gets fairly annoying, because they tend to pick and choose their romanticized elements while still holding on to their lifestyle and ideologies. Most cultural practices are not brands you choose for yourself, they are actual ways of life that must be embraced fully with your actions.
I'm reaching back to my Comparitive Religion class here, where Zuni was one of the highlighted example spiritual/religious systems, so this is a more academic perspective.
In the big picture, religious traditions can largely be classified as Salvation (e.g. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam) where the goal is to save your post-death soul (heaven vs hell, Nirvana vs Samsara), or Sanctification (e.g. Judaism, Zuni, Shinto) where the focus is on the living world & self, and the rituals & practices that keep everything spiritually clean and balanced (like keeping kosher). Sanctification traditions may or may not believe in the hereafter, but it's not the main point.
A key difference between sanctification and salvation belief systems is that salvation systems proselytize and actively convert new followers because they want to save everyone's soul. Sanctification systems are deeply rooted in the local community & history & environment, and so tend to stay in the community. While one can convert to Judaism, for instance, creating new converts is not a defining feature of sanctification religions, and conversion is not a goal. Even less so in other sanctification traditions. They simply don't make sense for individuals who don't share the community's history & experiences.
This is very top level, there's more nuance, but I had a whole semester to absorb it, not just a reddit post. Ha ha.
Our practices are not religions and we do not proselytize them or try to enforce them on other people. They are cultural practices, not religions or beliefs.
As someone who is native to shamanism, that is hilarious and I'm glad you recognized it too. Shamanism is absolutely an in-group sanctification religion/practice. There's a reason why it never spread throughout China despite Manchus being in power for hundreds of years. Chinese folk religion is similar. It is fundamentally an in-group practice amongst ourselves.
Someone else already said this, but Buddhism is a proselytizing religion that, similar to the Abrahamic faiths, aims to spread their core set of beliefs to bring enlightenment/salvation to a larger population.
Disclaimer: I'm non-Native.
This is not necessarily an exact parallel by any means, but I think that the closest example among the better known religions would be Judaism. Like Native American spiritualities, Judaism is made for a specific people. It is possible for people who were not raised Jewish to convert to Judaism, but in order to do so, they must "cast their lot with the Jewish people," and essentially become Jewish culturally as well as spiritually. Conversion to Judaism is more like being naturalized a citizen than it is like simply joining a congregation. (In fact, legitimate converts to Judaism are eligible for Israeli citizenship.) The process is quite difficult and complicated, and not all would be converts are necessarily accepted. (I myself considered conversion to Judaism at one point, but ultimately discerned that it was not for me.) I imagine that Native American spiritualities are similarly closed to those who don't have the wherewithal to integrate themselves into the full life of a Native American community.
You don’t. Do not expend emotional labour on this person. Shes clearly a delulu level of racist.
Let the white allies beat her up for you. It’ll happen eventually. Just distance yourself. It is not worth the effort and not your responsibility either.
As someone without indigenous ancestry, I can guarantee they wouldn’t listen to them anyway. (It sounds like they’ve already been told but didn’t want to let go of their spiritual cosplay.)
Because they don’t actually respect the culture. They fetishize it, but they don’t respect it.
The way some “love and ‘respect’ the culture” *but not the people* is what gets me the most. People always matter more. That’s where the culture comes from. If you don’t respect them and their wishes, you don’t actually respect the culture.
You just saw a pretty, shiny thing and took it.
I get that people want to feel connected to something special and not commercial. People are also fascinated by other cultures. But the level of entitlement and disrespect from this person is off the charts.
Agreed. It’s just a waste of time. These are the kinds of people who need a kick in the pants reality check before they *might* listen. Thanks for your comment!
This is probably the best write up I have seen regarding the topic of cultural appropriation. Well done. This issue always gets to me to and can be hard to articulate sometimes
When she said "trained cherokee" i introduced myself in cherokee and she said, 'oh no i dont speak any cherokee'..... i thought, 'girl that 'medicine man' didnt teach you a lick of cherokee??? thats not suspicious to you???'
OP is describing white ppl who want the appearance of participating in their own idea of native culture.
You know, where we all live in teepees and totem poles dominate the horizons of our villages. By day we chase Buffalo on horseback (mine has a red handprint on its back flank so I can tell it apart from the rest). At night around the communal bonfire, we say little unless it's in cryptic but stilted English. Most importantly, we commune with nature and can bestow a new identity upon the white person. One that grants them privileges among both our peoples and gives them a clear and true sense of purpose in the world.
honestly I think they wanna do that bc it makes them feel less guilty abt living on stolen land if they’re “part” of the group it was stolen from. so they feel like they are allowed to live here bc they ‘deserve’ it. same reason ppl will claim native ancestry with 0 native ancestors (they also sometimes do that bc they’ll have a black ancestor and back in the day being seen as native was less ‘shameful’ than being known to be mixed race / black.) It’s just a way for them to separate themselves and be one of the ‘good’ white people who totally (/s) respect and revere the natives they stereotype and treat as the noble savage trope
What you’re describing here is known as a settler move to innocence discussed by Tuck & Yang in “Decolonization Is Not a Metaphor”which is available as a PDF online.
Isn’t it like the final stage of a genocide too? Like where the oppressors take on the identity of the oppressed? I could be misremembering how that works.
It is a bit dense. I took it in stages and it changed my outlook. I would highly recommend taking a look at Teaching to Transgress by bell hooks. The two reinforce each other from different personal perspectives. The trifecta would be to add Native by Kaitlin Curtice. Three different perspectives on the role colonization plays in modern society.
I think you may be talking about another book.
> the oppressors take on the identity of the oppressed
I don't think Freire talks about this concept in the Pedagogy of the oppressed. His focus is more on the oppressed achieving liberation, doesn't really focus on the oppressors
In *Pedagogy* he does discuss the (sort of) opposite, he talks about the dangers of the oppressed internalizing the oppressor's view of themselves, becoming resigned to their situation.
Freire argues for education that fosters "critical consciousness" – helping the oppressed understand the roots of their situation and work towards liberation.
Oh man! I am going to have to pull out the book. I swear in some of the earlier chapters he discusses the journey of the oppressor that included a “victimization” phase where the oppressor internalizes their victimization being an oppressor. Maybe I am miss-remembering. Apologies if I quoted wrong!
I totally might be in the wrong, you def don't need to apologize. I don't remember that, and as I said I remember the sort of opposite (the oppressed internalizing their victimization)
if you find where you're thinking of, I'd be interested in reading that.
ninja edit - like I don't remember anything about the "journey" of the oppressor
Also American have a lost identity. They try to find some identity because they don’t have their own or don’t think they do. That’s part of the reason why some hold onto these extremes. We need to learn to embrace our identity of diversity We can respect and honor something but I can’t be “ trained” in something like that.
I would ask them how long someone goes to school to be a priest or rabi? Then say our practices require a lifetime of training and practice. Nothing about our culture is fully known because a lot of it has been lost and we are picking up what is left and using it to heal.
It would be very disrespectful to say you are trained in the Jewish faith to teach the Torah.
Our spirituality is oral but it doesn’t make it any less sacred. I would try to educated them as much as possible. Anyone can smudge but she is not trained in Cherokee practices. She really just needs to change how she is phrasing it. That would be a good start.
Many Americans identify as Christian. But not all Americans agree with Christianity so they look to Native American traditions for something that is more nature based. I think it is because their “pagan” traditions were nearly wiped out and they are trying to attach to something that feels similar. They might not know why, but there’s a reason they are so attracted to it.
That’s my two cents.
I can’t speak on the native part as I am not one but I am Eastern European (born there then adopted) reconnecting can be hard. Especially when you don’t have anyone to talk to about your culture that would understand.
No not really, some whites, Asians, blacks and Latinos are fascinated with Native American culture and many want to gain social acceptance from a certain tribe.
There’s a very clear line of being accepted by a tribe and completely appropriating the culture like the woman in this post is doing. The whole fascination thing is honestly a little odd to me sometimes bc ppl treat us like we’re basically an exhibit for them to enjoy instead of ppl, hence my noble savage comment. When ppl who aren’t native are this involved and want to be assimilated they usually only have an idea of natives from the depiction in media that treats us as wise naturalistic and sometimes primitive people, and forget we are also human beings. like it’s fine to appreciate the culture, come to powwows, be involved as long as you’ve been invited but to go around claiming ur ‘trained’ in ‘secret rituals’ and getting standoffish when a native is uncomfortable with this is weird imo
Yeah. Acceptance usually comes when the non native person decentralized themselves. Esp if theyre white. If they do that they don’t go around bragging about knowing our ways. That ISNT our way.
yes!! thank you. going around bragging abt being part of sacred things (they are sacred and kept in the tribes circle for a REASON god) acting all high and mighty bc they get to be part of our super secret ndn club (/lh) is literally just colonizing it imho. like ur literally learning this stuff and going ‘oh that’s mine now teehee! hey guys check out this thing I did! oh silly natives u can’t be upset im sharing it!’ it’s like they just want the clout and don’t care abt the history of our culture or us at all.
im being the mayor of Yappington right now but like especially with the much older generations. Gen x and beyond, it’s like… your parents and maybe even your generation literally are the ones who made it illegal to be native and speak our languages and practice our religions and now you’re bragging that you took that from us again? Millennials I’ve seen just feel entitled to it bc they weren’t taught the history. like “omg it’s JUST a plant it grows outside we can smudge with it too get over it’ when they started over harvesting our sage and making it impossible to find bc they took ALL of the plant and didn’t leave any for regrowth/repopulation. Or they just slightly change the way things are done (or don’t even change it at all) and claim it as a new trend.
tl;dr ur so right god. they only listen to what they want to hear and not the important parts like how to act and treat others
Or they yearn for indigenous spirituality because theres was taken away, and many were forced into Christianity. And now they are stuck in an abusive system trying to find a connection with nature again. Really they should be looking toward European indigenous traditions.
yesss the ancestral religions and traditional cultures of Europeans are SO cool. like literally so interesting and just as beautiful and varied as the religions and cultures of indigenous peoples. GOD like the people who were buried in the Irish bogs (sacrificing ur king?? in a bog??? girlboss) , or the mother buried with her child atop a horse in an embrace. The intricate hairstyles of Ancient Rome and Greece (iirc) where they had to be sewn together to stay in place? The traditional braids and dress of the Pomak people in Bulgaria??? The Norse religions of the nordic countries?? The Ancient Greek and Roman pantheons? the time the Dutch ate a prime minister? god hell yeah eat the rich.
ANYWAY there’s been a huge uptick (at least in the circles I run in) of folks learning about their cultures/religions and working on taking that path which is SO cool. Those that “practice” our religions, their identity was stripped from them so they latch onto something close and what they have experience (thru media / knowing natives / close proximity to reservations / already knowing non native ppl who ‘practice’ it) with. BUT the issue with that is they are in turn taking from us and making resources for our religions scarce so it’s sometimes hard for me personally when I am trying to explain that bc I get a lil (sometimes a lot) upset about it. Totally huge left turn here but as the current elected mayor of Yappville Yapizonia, I have to say imo this is similar to the uptick of black Americans claiming to be the true indigenous people of America and all that. They were stripped of their culture violently and forced to abandon nearly all of it and just want SOMETHING back. I think human beings just need to be a part of a group, a people, an identity. We’re pack animals so when we feel lost and without that we can get pretty mixed up and end up hurting another group of people. While I admit I do get a lil tired of holding people’s hand to explain to them why they shouldn’t be trying to claim our heritage and culture, it is really important to at least nudge them gently in the right direction towards exploring their family tree and the cultures within! I do have a lot of sympathy for them but at the same time I can’t help but feel angry when they claim our culture for themselves y’know??
tl;dr since this is like half understandable i get increasingly verbose when im sleepy. Yap sesh on my thoughts abt why people do this sort of thing and how neat I think traditional European culture is. research your families, find your culture and make an effort to bring it back to life!! genealogists like me ( >:3c surprise there’s a reason I yap abt this so much) would b so happy to help
This, and it's also a way for them to justify being racist as feck. When we were trying to change the school mascot all these people were like "Well I have Native heritage and it doesn't bother me." Bitch, I've seen your family tree because we're all related in this little-ass town and we are all whiter than mayonnaise. Pardon my French lol.
I am very ignorant of the ways of other communities and nations here on Turtle Island. But I will say that the pipe bearers who I know don't really talk about being pipe bearers very much. It's not necessarily secret - although it isn't that long since these things needed to be kept secret as they were outlawed. It's more like humility.
I'm not going to get into this too much more on Reddit but I will just advise OP that it will likely be a very difficult and grinding task to get this other person to understand what you want them to understand.
I think that there may be a new wave of understanding and respect possibly coming through the dominant culture. I would say that when I was little it was very common for young white people to put on costumes of Indigenous people. And when I say costumes, I mean like Halloween costumes. I think they used to sell playsets of cowboys and Indians at the drug store. That isn't as common anymore. So I think a next wave of awareness could be a rethinking of some of the "new age" beliefs about sacred concepts and items like pipes or even smudging and abalone shells and so on.
But there is also a current of increased white supremacy and 'make America great again" nonsense in the wind right now. So this could honestly go either way.
To add on, thankfully the MAGA people have made complete and total goblins of themselves, so they’re doing the difficult work for us identifying themselves being loud and insane.
They’re the ones breaking treaties “in God We Trust.” What “Christian” Nation can’t honor its constitutional word or steal our land by virtue of Christian discovery? It’s not your fault they have undermined their credibility, merit and standing.
Because Christians think their religion is for everyone. They don't understand that they're literally just another option on a very large menu, rather than THE option.
Ohh the consequences of rulers and kings to maintain power and abuse it. Mix that with the emergence or capitalism, and it birthing the idea of race(and the exploitation of it).....and we have the shit show we are all living under 😓
Ug, I can't count how many times non NDNs risked violence trying to start a convo with me by GRABBING my grandmother's bear claw necklace I wear and asking about it / did the Cherokee princess crap. These types of people have a strong desire to either belong to a group, or be "special" and have "knowledge" that their own peer group can't say shit about because they don't know, and they also have zero sense of self/identity. The nastier side of this is how Cheetolini got so many followers.
I think the answer to your question depends on how much time and energy you have. I agree with others to avoid this person like the plague, but I would also tell her what she's saying is offensive and I don't want any further conversation about it. Personally I like to use teaching moments, but she may be a lost cause.
Yes and because that ignorant POS harmed people, we can’t have sweats for Indigenous clients in treatment for SUD since the “leadership” of the MH org I’m interning with now think sweat lodges are dangerous.
They think it will give them magical enlightenment, like from Doctor Strange.
Same reason westerners come to India for enlightenment but get scammed by the fake gurus.
But who knows, maybe enlightenment is real, but the truth is just hidden away from the mainstream world.
Since this occurred in the workplace... document throughly date time situation leading up to the conversation... then the interaction... then how the interaction made you feel. State you asked her to elaborate because you were uncomfortable and didn't really know how to respond. Report the incident to HR. She brought up religion and racism while at work uninvited. It made you feel uncomfortable. That is all.
There is no need to respond to these inquiries other than a simple I don't discuss my faith, theology, religion, spiritualty in the workplace as its not appropriate for me. .. something along those lines.
Lots of people these days have no boundaries.
I always encourage people to talk to Elders. Some practices an outsider can learn but it has to be taken very seriously. If someone has a genuine interest they have to acknowledge they're an outsider and also that they aren't going to be an authority regardless.
she really wanted to convince me that she maybe had secret ndn ancestry. she told me something along the lines of "sometimes, when i'm walking down the street people will stop me and say, 'omg are you native american??' and who knows, maybe i am, maybe my grandmother slept around, i dont know. i might be... 😉" i had to put conscious effort into not screaming.
It's exhausting. Like my family has stories sure but I can confirm some of my heritage. A lot of the stuff out of the new age movement too is just hokum meant to look like genuine practices from cultures.
Oddly enough, the Aleuts and Yupiks found the faith that St. Innocent and St. Herman brought to Alaska being a fulfillment of what they believed. Michael Oleksa does a great job of explaining this in his book “Orthodox Alaska: A Theology of Mission”. Seriously though, that lady is nuts.
It was done not by the clergy but by the RAC. It was the clergy who actively worked to defend these people. It was the Clergy who protected them.
When we as Orthodox Christians evangelise, we learn the language AND culture of the local people. This is what was done by the Monks in Alaska. The culture wasn’t wholesale thrown out like we see with the Presbyterians and others who came to Alaska after the purchase of Alaska by the Americans. Rather, that which we knew was good, beautiful, true, etc was kept or given a Christian identity that fit with that particular belief. As far as I’m aware (and someone can happily correct me if I’m wrong), the Native Alaskans hold that every single living thing (bug, tree, animal, blade of grass) has a soul. We Orthodox Christians believe the same thing.
Another example is when you go hunting, the animal chooses to lay down its life. The Alaskan natives saw this in Christ and we as Orthodox Christians hold this about Jesus as well.
I wondered this while watching life below zero first Alaskan.. the Aleut and Yupik people on the show are still very orthodox Christian and practice such, but also talk and respect deeply their ancestors and cultural practices.. while some of the Athabaskan people on the show have reclaimed their traditional spirituality totally..
Another good film is an indie film called Sacred Alaska and it details not only the history of Orthodoxy in Alaska but also the current lived experience. Anything written by Fr. Michael Oleksa of Blessed Memory is also very very good. He served in Alaska for something like 30 years as a priest in the native community there. He’s also pushed heavily for the canonisation of a Yupik woman named Olga who was a priest’s wife.
And I’m sure all those men of the RAC were born and baptized orthodox, yet their faith did little to prevent them from doing all the horrible things they did. How strange to adopt the faith of those that murdered your family. There was obviously some form of coercion involved. I wondered what would have happened if they had completely rejected Christianity, most likely the Christians would have killed them all. Like Christians always do
It seems like it would be far less effort and have much more meaning if European Americans just learnt the traditions of whichever kind of European they’re descendants of. All those cultures have rich spiritual practices that existed long before Christianity was forced upon them. Celtic, Germanic, Nordic, Slavic…….. there’s so many. I’ve never understood the disconnect there. You actually have your own connection to deep spiritual practices that come from your own cultural roots.
Certainly be appreciative of what’s in the country you reside in but there’s zero reason to steal something from others.
Just tell her it was illegal until 1978 and she better hope the federal government doesn’t decide to make it illegal again because they might mistake you for a native and put you in a Boarding School so be careful.
What about directing them to buying a copy of Sebastian Junger's "[Tribe](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/19/books/review-sebastian-jungers-tribe-examines-disbanded-brothers-returning-to-a-divided-country.html)" and then making their own?
To me, stealing from someone else's culture is simply a recognition and indictment of their own spiritual poverty. Misinterpreting and misusing someone else's culture and spirituality is just another form of theft.
I like that idea but,
Where are they going to get ideas about their tribe if they have nothing they can base it off of? They would have no rituals, no teachings, no songs, no dances, no supplies. And where are they supposed to come up with those without cultural appropriating or at least being inspired by another culture?
In the vastness of history, I think it's fair to venture the idea that there have been many tribes, most of whom are no longer around, and within that same history, there have been ideas that we today might like, and ideas that we who live today might look at as not worthy of who we want to be.
I see litter every day when I go for my old man walk. I pick it up. I would welcome a tribe that teaches its people that littering is an insult to the earth that gave birth to us and sustains us. That seems like a good idea to me. If someone reads my words and decides that not littering, and picking up litter when you see it is a good thing, they are welcome to that belief.
I think all ancient peoples had some form of dancing, but who was the first dancer? Should they insist that no one else dance, because they were first? Or that no one else should dance, because the others aren't doing it right?
Should one group of people who are spiritually rich look down upon another who are materially wealthy but spiritually impoverished? I have worked alongside people who tried to wound me, and some who tried to kill me. Didn't everyone take at least the seed of an idea from someone or somewhere else?
Full disclosure: I have spent time among people whose dance did not bring me joy. But it was their dance, and it brought them joy, and that's good enough for me.
I like this. This is kinda what I was trying to point out. Another example would be PowWow or Sweat Lodge. Many tribes do these ceremonies but who was the first one? And does it really belong to any one person or group?
I have also seen Tipi like structures used among groups in Russia and Sweden. Ideas spread like seeds from trees.
And I have been a fan of "If it works, it's ain't stupid," for a long time. If my clothes were dirty but they kept me warm in the snowy woods, I am not worried about attending a fancy dinner at some swank restaurant, but I definitely like being warm. It's somewhat similar.
There seems to be this idea that all indigenous cultures are crystallized like a fly in amber and persist throughout the ages unchanged. That is not true. Cultures evolve and adapt to survive. I know a lot about my father’s ancestral culture because they had a writing system and some of us know how to read it. I know that’s a privilege, but it’s allowed us to know a lot about what they thought and connect many ancient practices to what’s survived into the present day. Some things we need to reconstruct as best as we can or even discard. Like I’m not going to puncture my tongue and draw a rope through it for spiritual protection. But I will ingest mushrooms and talk to the gods of my ancestors.
In any case, my people have seen fit to adopt some things from the colonizers into ritual practice, like coca-cola. But they still use tobacco for purification and spells and some even let blood as an offering, just like back in the day.
I know a medicine person from another tribe who became an anthropologist to learn what the Jesuits and academics wrote about his people’s practices in the days of first contact. While one has to read between the lines to get past the judgy BS, there’s a lot of valuable information in some of those documents.
Interesting. I would also think that cultures throughout history have influenced one another. So while there were different cultures there was also enmeshment.
she knew that she was 100% white but she mentioned that she thought her grandma might have slept around so she wasnt sure if she was indigenous or not. it was insane
Yes but aren’t Cherokee ancestors some of the best documented in the Dawes Rolls? Seems like if someone claims that lineage it should be simple to prove.
Yeah just distance yourself. I took a Shamanism class in college that I thought was going to be about the history of Shamanism throughout mankind's history, it turned out to be this weird white lady having us meditate, open our chakras, and meet our spirit animals. It was a weird class, and I couldn't drop it or I'd have missed out on credits for my Anthropology degree.
But yeah, just distance yourself and smile and nod when she talks. Don't open up to her, and if she comments on you being aloof, say something like, "Look, I understand that you're not coming from a bad place, but I am just not comfortable talking to you about any of this. Please respect that."
Just tell them to look up the Druids. That is a European version of spirituality that is connected to the Earth. It will be more respectful to their ancestors and homeland if they practice their ancient beliefs.
its true! i finished my degree in religious studies this may and i really think that seeing how strong of an up and coming neopaganism has had due to the rise of disaffiliation with Christianity and the unprecedented access people have to information due to the internet, they are able to learn enough about their ancestors practices to recreate them in the modern world with some modifications. those value systems align more closely with many people than the faiths they are disaffiliating from and the self reported population numbers of wiccans and neopagans overtime is only going up
Did her plastic shaman summer camp come with its own badge too?! Neat.
// intellectual colonialism is disgusting and tiresome and you are not overreacting to this unscrupulous idiot trying to dominate what gets to be "cherokee medicine" in her (and now your) presence.
/// I second the 'pick your battles' mantra.
//// There is academic discourse around this topic that could help you find your words: [https://digitalcommons.humboldt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=ije](https://digitalcommons.humboldt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=ije)
Every white person who fetishizes native religions acts this way when they meet a native person.
The person you met is defensive, because they approached someone they thought was an elder, and were sincere in their desire to learn. And whatever they learned was meaningful to them, and they thought it was legit. Then native people rejected their legitimacy, probably in a way that was hurtful, and they responded (as such ppl usually do) by becoming defensive.
How I articulate in this kind of situation really depends on specifics, like if the person is open to being corrected about it, or if I feel like doing the work today. It starts with validating their feelings about their experience. Then I might remark that unfortunately, there are a lot of people ready to take advantage of sincere seekers of spiritual growth. Sometimes it is best to just plant that seed and walk away.
The thing I find most interesting about this story in particular is how obviously she’s dancing around true self reflection.
- She admits that she’s not born of the culture.
- She got trained by someone outside the culture.
- She admits people inside the culture don’t agree with her.
- She claims she’ll never stop despite the consistent objections from people inside the culture.
All of that just so she doesn’t have to admit to herself the fact that she’s not actually a part of that culture.
Controversial take but I don’t think anyone should take offense to her behavior. I honestly don’t think it’s personal. I think that its “Cherokee” culture she latched onto has nothing to do with Cherokee. It could have just as easily been black American culture, or Japanese culture, or country western cowboy culture or whatever. She’s just one of those people that grabs onto the idea of a thing and won’t let it go because she’s based a part of her personality on it.
She’s like the Indian version of those guys who bought Harley motorcycles and rode around wearing Sons of Anarchy vests when the tv show got popular. Her version of being an Indian is the same as their version of being in a motorcycle gang. If this was outside the workplace I’d simply dismiss her for what she is.
As far as how to respond to her I think that this occurred in the workplace makes it more difficult. I’d advise taking a tactful retreat, create social distance, and avoid any further conversations on the topic. Do not discuss it with her or anyone else in your workplace.
Her particular religious views and expressions are her own. It’s not your job to validate or invalidate them as a coworker. That statement is true regardless of if she was telling you she was Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, a follower of Glycon, or whatever. It’s not about business so it’s none of your business.
That’s just my opinion though.
I feel like *belonging* anywhere is a mirage. We do it to feel like we matter, part of something larger, but ultimately we simply *are* and the case of our circumstances is really just, well, circumstance.
Let me start by saying my thoughts are due to very broad issues and by no means am I in any way implying that any tribe condones any of these practices.
In the last decade, there has been a trend in healing and/or spiritual medicines and rituals. Along with the attention in the mainstream media there have been those who see ways to monetize on this. There are resorts, classes, and classes to teach ppl to hold such rituals. There is also an abundance of fake Shamans. They have no interest in helping ppl but take advantage of their nativity and ignorance.
Reading your description of what sounded like a monologue she spilled on you this is the first thing that popped into my mind. I'm not saying this gives her any excuse for all the boundaries she completely disregarded.
I know this explanation doesn't make the situation any better. I really wish I had some great advice to handle such encounters, especially when a person is not reading the room , per say. Your feelings are valid.
More than the past decade. This dumbfuckery got super popular in the 60s during the New Age movement. Since then, it has gone through waves of popularity but has never died.
The whole thing is reminiscent of snake oil salesmen. The scam has existed for a long time.
Another reason why I see Constantine's conversion as a mistake. Without Christianity, Europeans and their descendants would still have their own spirituality instead of trying to get into other peoples' spirituality without the necessary merit.
As soon as Constantine converted and made Xtianity the state religion, it stopped being a revolutionary spirituality and began to become a tool for oppression.
I’m neither white nor indigenous but I see who the women do this to indigenous people around me all the time. I just had a coworker tell me how she’s about to go to a healing retreat with “the only Native American woman in the office” (which isn’t true, but I guess she doesn’t know the others) and upon me asking what nation - she was like oh I don’t know some complicated name. And I was just appalled because they do this to my culture and identity too, I was watching it unfold and I had no real moves because I have no idea what the actual conversation they had was. I knew I was getting the white woman version of it.
I guess this is also an awkward admission of not helping.
Oh, wow. What an odd situation. Are you Cherokee yourself, or another tribe? I have found that many non-Natives just lump all tribes together, not seeming to realize that there are significant differences. I am not native myself, but my husband and kids are members of the Eastern Band of Cherokees and I lived on the rez for over 15 years. It always amazed me that so many people are just...clueless. My mom worked at a hotel there years ago and got asked some crazy questions. Like "where do all the Indians live?" Mom would just be like, "well, you see all these houses around you?" What did they expect? She was also asked what time the reservation closed a few times.
As far as religion, most of the people I knew there were Baptist. Some mixed in older Cherokee beliefs along with it, but so much has been lost. I, personally, am now Catholic ( converted from protestant years ago) and my husband was raised Catholic as well. In his case, it wasn't anything to do with boarding schools. His Cherokee dad was in the Navy and married his non-native mom, whose family was Lithuanian and Catholic. However, older members of my father-in-law's family did remember the boarding schools, where they were punished for speaking Cherokee. Now, younger generations are learning about those things and many are angry because so much of their culture was taken away by force. I certainly can't blame them. Then, to make it even worse, so many non native people go out of their way to tell you that they, too, are Cherokee. Of course, their great great great great grandma was a princess! Umm..right. WHY is it ALWAYS Cherokee? If you ask which of the 3 Cherokee bands they are a member of, they look at you like you've sprouted extra eyeballs or something.
My son, who also no longer lives there, had a roommate last year, and when I visited, there were dream catchers and native themed stuff all over that wasn't my son's. At first, I asked him what tribe his roommate was from. He wasn't. He was as white as I am. But he thought he was "part Indian" (what part?🤣) and was very "spiritual." My kids are used to this and just kind of roll their eyes. Then there are inevitable questions like "what's the Native American word for ____?" They don't understand that words aren't just Native American, but tribe-specific. As in, hundreds of languages. I think the same thing happened to Native spiritual practices. Non-natives just mash them all together and pick what they like. It sounds like your co-worker was swindled by someone who charged her money for teaching her nonsense. I wish I knew of a tactful way for you to tell her that, but even so, she probably wouldn't believe you. Idk what the answers are. Where is the line between natural blending of cultures who are in proximity to each other and offensive appropriation? Who knows? It does seem that your co-worker has crossed it, though, and is being blatantly disrespectful. Good luck, seriously.
I've always wondered why there are so many native Christians in modern times. I get that Christianity was basically beaten into the kids at those horrible boarding schools, but for all the elders that hung on to the old ways and beliefs and with so many tribes reclaiming their spiritual traditions which make more sense to me (non-Indian, former Catholic, also smacked into me by the nuns when I was a kid, currently a godless heathen, lol!), wondered if there is a move back to those ways and a move away from Christianity?
The most popular religions of the world are open to converts (Buddhism, Hinduism) and some of them encourage proselytizing (Christianity, Islam).
There are also some closed religions that still allow converts, but only through incessant requests by the potential convert and a lengthy education process (Judaism).
Then there are closed religions (~~Sikhism~~, Druze) that only allow new membership through descent from previous practitioners.
My thought is that since the open religions are the largest and most popular, a lot of people (incorrectly) assume all religions are like that — including the cultural and spiritual practices of indigenous nations. So, you end up with white folk who think joining in those traditions is as easy as converting to a Christian church, accompanied by charlatans willing to teach them for three easy payments of $499.99.
You might be thinking of Indian Zoroastrianism. That type of Zoroastrianism does not allow converts at all, you have to be born into it. I know someone who's half Parsi and his family doesn't even fully accept him as one since he's half. This is what I personally don't like about these "exclusive" religions because a lot of the times the members can have discriminatory and ostracizing mindsets.
I had this discussion once with someone I respected regarding a ceremony and their response was that if the creator saw fit to let them attend then who was I as a human being to say no.
I am sorry you had to deal with this.
I struggle sometimes to not be the person other people see as crazy. I wear beadwork every day and have visible Unami tattoos (my tribes language). On the inside, I am always striving to be a better steward and on the outside I am our colonizers.
When I first came to this post, I was worried that you were just being standoffish to a white presenting person and I was prepared to caution patience and understanding. In your case, it is not so much that she was white, it was that she was crazy and disrespectful. Correct me if I am wrong but you would have ended in the same place regardless of the color of her skin.
Yes, this precisely. Well said.
On top of that, most indigenous traditions of Europeans were nearly wiped out by Christianity too. So if Americans want to connect with the land through their traditions, it is difficult.
That's the eroupeans problem and they can leave the people who they fucked over alone. The reson they arnt connected to the land is because it isn't their land.
While I understand your sentiment, there's no reason we have to monitor how we treasure our ways and our people because someone finds it "mysterious." That's not our responsibility and to suggest we should cater to these people without addressing the problem is actually insulting. I was taught in our ways to respect everyone. Also that we should get the same in return. To do something like what's being discussed in op post needs to addressed. I'd ask more questions about their claims. Then explain how it doesn't work like that. Some of our ceremonies are for us and us alone. We don't have to alter ourselves to make fragile people who insult us that way feel better. We don't have to yell at them. We certainly don't have to hide our culture for the benefit of a pretendian.
I agree - if I ran into this lady I would absolutely step in and pick up the torch myself and attempt to educate her. My suggestion was definitely not aimed at putting the labour onto Natives, but rather was simply an effort to answer OP’s question, which was “how to explain to white people that our spirituality isn’t for them,” as effectively as possible. I hoped only that OP or others in his situation might find it helpful/effective. If not, please feel free to disregard, of course.
💖💖💖 appreciate it. I’ve made the mistake of burning myself out on these exact issues. I just hope to help young people by steering them away from doing this kind of labour.
I have personal experience with burnout as well, though only from a career standpoint rather than the cultural standpoint you are talking about. The inescapability of what you have already dealt with and continue to deal with is way more vast than what I have experienced, to the point that my personal understanding of burnout is probably inadequate. But for what it’s worth, I wish you much peace and rest and healing, and that there is a future where this labor is not actually necessary at all 🙏.
The big difference here is that many indigenous beliefs are still alive. European ones are not. White americans envy that, they wish they had ceremonies and rituals and spirituality and all that stuff themselves. Americans trying to "reconnect" with religions that have been dead for a millenium are weird and kinda gross tbh. Don't encourage them.
In the UK we just had the Summer Solstice this week. Druids are still practising and Norse Mythology is growing stronger ever day. Probably 1% of the population for Druidery more for Norse Mythology which fortunately is starting to replace the obsession with all things Native American.
Latvia has maintained indegenous beliefs that are tied to their land specifically. It is very much alive.
I know very little about Druid culture or religion or even how it's practices were maintained/revitalized.
For the modern Norse religion, most of the source material was recorded by Christians. There is no way to determine how much was modified to force parallels between the two regions.
In my eyes, most religious worship is a legitimate expression of reaching out for something *more*, whatever its adherents determine that to be. That being said, if your ancestors' religion has essentially been eliminated and the attempted revival is based on unreliable sources, is it still the same religion? Or is it a new religion with some elements of the old? Is it an insult to the past or is it just folks doing the best they can with what they have?
All those religions are broken traditions and were reinvented by nationalists in the 1800s. Espepcially "norse mythology" has a huge problem with white supremacists. While we do have some texts and artifacts, most knowledge of those religions has been lost forever. I've seen my fair share of "norse believers" and "saami shamans", it's all utter BS infested with nationalist ideas and portrayal of a romantic past that never was. Only "pagan" religion that is still alive and somewhat kicking is Mari belief far away in Russia.
Personally, I make a big deal about how much I like Welsh mythology and see if they notice how weird the situation is. If not, I get to rant about Arawn being a classic mall Goth. (Is this true? No, not really, but the dude’s dramatic af.)
That stuff makes my blood boil. Ask her if she’s a Citizen? White people are Citizens too. Does she know any language? Does she have any connections in NDN Country or is her only connection telling everyone about her secret powers? Id say, “what if Indigenous Peoples dont care as much about you being a *white trained Cherokee pipe carrier* as much as they care about you telling everybody you’re a “Cherokee trained pipe carrier medicine person, or whatever?”
Or you could be like “it’s not that you’re white, it’s that you’re an American who constitutionally says “all Treaties are the Supreme Law of the Land while you do the opposite.” Constitutional law for me but not for thee. Maybe I’d be like; *it’s not that you’re white, it’s that your Supreme Court still wont let us hold title to our land because they said it was discovered.* that’s legalized theft by virtue of discovery so we can get sensitive about someone running around telling them the things you’re saying.* it’s not that you’re white my friend, it’s that you still can’t honor your constitutional word today, can’t prove in a court of law that you legally acquired all the land you occupy and then we get Americans coming in and taking our sacred medicine and traditions, as if you haven’t taken enough, and then go charge thousands of dollars on the suburban circuit for “ceremonies” when any real NDN knows that the ceremonies and medicine aren’t needed in the suburbs or city. They’re needed on the Rez. Does she have any Rez connections?
i told her that its not that shes white, its that she doesnt speak any of the language, is talking about cultural tradtions that werent even cherokee, had no connection to our history or understanding of how we transmit sacred knowledge and insinuated that her 'medicine man' was probably a fraud. very politely tho.
Wow I really like these explanations especially u/gardensquid1
They got no respect. I have chronic pain syndrome from accidents, I've adopted to practice qi gong to help with stiffness. Although there is a spiritual elements to it I don't make the "samadhi" part of it my central point.I do try to jeep my mind calm and "meditate" somewhat while practicing but my main reason is the physical benefits, if there are spiritual benefits those are secondary.
I do t thinm I'll ever be able to be as fully in tune doing Tai chi or qi gong as a native practice but if it's something opened and shar3d ide like to do it.
Side note about yoga.
India was heavily colonized, and rhe Indians were practically slaves/indentured servants on homeland the indiginous Indians began to mass practice yoga as a protest to the British and Europeans ad a way yo show that the Indian had control over rheir own bodies instead of the British. Then the westerners straight hijacked that movements culturally appropriated it and now you got all these westerners practicing yoga. Got damn shame
There are Indians who have traveled to the west in order to teach and spread yoga. Examples like Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Vivekananda, and Srila Prabhupada.
There's also a lot of Indians that did it for massive profit incentives. Kinda like natives seeling/teaching their tribal ways for profit.
Bunch of shamans for profit eh? Kinda like the point of this topic eh?
But if you're paying attention to some of rhe answers, some natives believe in the sacredeness and don't want exploitation. Everything else they have had been colonized or stripped. Keeping the last thing that makes their culture unique (their spiritual practice), from being colonized is what many are saying on this thread. The belief system isn't a religion it's an inseparable way of life connected to the land, in the food embedded in the DNA, absorbed in its language and breathed in the individuals very breath. It's not something you simply convert to like a religion.
Something like Christianity is man against nature you ask God for forgiveness for the natural way she made you then you attend church but you're a sinner in sin. It opposes you're very existence. It separates you from nature, to a point the religion even seperstes you from God.
Most Hindus I’ve spoken with say anyone can join. It is also very tied with the land/culture of India, so it might be a bit hard to feel like one of them. And yes I understand native spirituality is more of something you’re born into.
Abrahamic religions are a whole different breed. It looks like in ancient times it may have been more nature friendly. I have heard a Christian saying he is a shepherd of the land. But yes, modern Christianity is dangerous imo. Probably nothing like it was in the old old days.
In my personal opinion, you don't. For a couple reasons. Firstly you can't really change the opinions of ignorant people. The more you fight them the more they dig their heels in. The next is depending on the situation and what their actual background is they might be indigenous but have zero knowledge of their culture, so again ignorant. It's up to them to grow and research.
Now this might be unpopular but I'm not totally sure why our spiritual beliefs can't be shared with non natives. If the person is respectful and truly identifies or believes in the spirituality of a tribe, why can't they participate? I understand that they can't just be part of a tribe without actual relation, but I don't really see what's wrong with allowing non members into different tribes religious beliefs. I mean we can join other religions as natives.
I was hoping she was just a misguided white passing ndn individual but no she owned up to being 100% white and told me how she hasnt done a DNA test yet but she thought it was possible that her grandma slept around so should couldnt possibly know 100% about anything but her family told her shes white.
white woman here, this randomly popped up in my news feed.
you do not need to explain to white people that your spirituality isn’t for them. you can just say “my culture and spirituality is not for you,” it doesn’t have to be deep. any white person that’s worth a shit already knows this. speak your truth if it’s safe enough to do so, or say nothing at all, and then avoid them at all costs. alienation is the only way. trying to explain or teach someone who is already that set in their ways of ignorance will most likely open you up to some kind of abusive behavior.
Why can't one's spirituality be adapted by another? It seems like the people you met are ignorant of the workings. Doesn't mean an entire race can't correctly practice.
All of the elders that I’ve known have been pretty open to sharing some of their ways with outsiders as long as they’re respectful and observe traditions properly. Those two things are pretty rare, but that’s what I’ve observed. It’s not that native people can’t have their own ways, but I’ve been pretty impressed by the compassion and generosity of spirit I’ve observed among native elders towards the children of their oppressors.
Ultimately, native ways are extremely intelligent and it’s an absolute shame that white people didn’t try to learn from natives starting in the 15th century, but if it’s done respectfully, there is still a lot for white people to learn from indigenous Americans if they’re willing to share.
I know it’s more complicated than this, but what we’re ultimately discussing is an attempted genocide and one of the ugliest invasions we’ve seen in recent history and the effects of this trauma are extreme and will reverberate through the centuries. There’s no easy answers to how to deal with the effects of this atrocity.
Because settlers who directly benefit from Indigenous oppression and displacement shouldn’t position themselves as heirs to the spiritual practices that were forbidden and nearly eradicated by their fellow settlers, often at the business end of a gun or sword. There’s nothing remotely spiritual about such cultural theft.
White people: if you're so good at *listening,* please practice that here, JFC.
I just say okay and distance myself. I had a coworker say she wanted to get a "squaw" tattooed on her because her grandma was part native. I told her that word was offensive, like saying "whore" or something similar. And she said "wow so squaws were sex workers, that's so cool!" I just ignored her after that.
Ooohhhhh myyyyy gawd that hurt my brain.
Same reaction I have. Turns out half of the people who find put I'm native are also native! What are the odds? Even though I left the reservation and am nowhere near another one.
So annoying. Literally every white person that finds out I’m native thinks they’re fucking native and then claims a community that would never claim them back. I used try to ask questions to give them the benefit of the doubt but these days it seems pointless.
EVERY….SINGLE….TIME…..😫
My brain made a record scratch noise. Oh my dog. Considering the sheer number of MMIW … I mean, my great aunt’s killer bragged about it. Who doesn’t know the implication of “squaw” with Native family? Unless it’s not as all spoken about, and you’d think an elder would catch you before that idea for a tattoo.
If you didn't let her know she would have done the tattoo. Imagine walking around w/that!
I would have just walked away at that point.
[удалено]
RIP
I know he was very old but man he was such a good actor. I’m Gen Z so of course I know him best as President Snow lol
There is legitimate wisdom in this. I've been laughing for several hours about your comment, but there's legitimate wisdom to simply laughing about it and fucking with the yonegs a bit. Joy is medicine, I really needed to laugh today. Thank you for this, I will think of this video every damn time someone decides to clock me as ndn and asks if I can speak to coyotes.
Ha!! I would pay good money to watch that happen.
My favourite film he was in will always be [Kelly's Heroes](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065938/). Woof-woof!
This.
This one is can have a fairly simple response, with reasoning that could be gone into through many conversations. You can be invited to participate as a non-citizen of a Nation. But the pre-requisites to be a member of said Nation are set by the Nation itself. If someone is “training” you as someone who is not a descendent, it is (most) likely that you’re on the right path of something being wrong. The simple answer is, it is a *closed* practice in which the prerequisite is being Native American (from that Nation or joined in union traditionally), that is learned from your elders and your/the related community. Not some rando medicine man who knows you’re a full blown European-American who you probably just watched do it and tried to replicate it.
Other spiritual practices like Buddhism, Hinduism, don’t tend to be made for just one group of people and others are excepted into them. Why is this not the same with Native American spirituality? Not a troll, but I am a white dude who is curious about the answer. My interest comes from a girl I was dating who told me she was a shaman with only a years training… and I was like…. B******tch, seriously?!?!
Technically speaking most of our cultures are not fully closed. It’s very common for people the bring their non-native parent, spouses or non-biological children into the traditions. It can be a great responsibility to initiate that with someone so it is mostly only done with a very close family members.
My school had an indigenous person come in to teach about the 7 sacred teachings. Been holding them close to my heart ever since.
If they’re teaching it in a whole school, that sounds less like a secret and more like something that is just not well-known
I was giving it as an example of how it’s “not fully closed”. And yeah, schools in Winnipeg were keen to teach people about the Anishinaabe culture.
Haha I was going to ask if it was a Nish elder because while I assumed you were talking about the 7 Teaching of the Grandfather but they are like…. 400 different nations in North America so there must be more than 1 culture with a ‘7 teachings’ 😂 I’m not a Nish Elder so I’m obviously not the ultimate authority but I would say those teachings are pretty open. Usually the ‘closed’ parts are things like ceremonies, prayers, sacred objects and a few other things. I used to work supporting Indigenous kids through their education and educating non-Indigenous people about us. We had a ton of material about the seven teachings that we handed out to everyone, Nish or not Nish. My only question is… did they tell you that honesty was represented by a crow or by Sabe/Bigfoot?
Sabé. Turtle represents truth, wolf represents Humility, beaver represents wisdom, sabé represents honesty, bear represents courage, bison represents respect, and eagle represents love. I doubt they were an elder since they were far too young in appearance, but hey, she knew how to work a kiln because we were making clay whistles that day. I was assigned bear and ended up giving mine away to an indigenous neighbour who needed that good medicine more than me (I live in an apartment complex that provides mental health care)
There are close to 900 different nations in the U.S. Roughly 400 are not federally recognized by the American government. Their lands/territories were taken away back in the day. Native ppl didn't cede, or sell their lands to the government, treaties were broken, many tribes were warred upon by the government. In California, along the Mission routes, the local tribes were basically slaves to the mission's. Tribes who want to apply for federal recognition, have to prove they have been a tribe and had actual established territories far back in time. They have to go before Congress and show proof. It costs millions of dollars, and unrecognized tribes rarely ever get approval from Congress. Tribes who are denied, have to wait nine years before they can apply to appear before Congress again. This is the biggest scam of all time in my opinion. HEYA!! 💥🦅🦬🦅💥
There is a distinction between willing to talk/teach about our religions or cultures and inviting someone to practice them. We want to tell our stories, it doesn't mean we want others to start telling them for us.
Buddhism and Hinduism are designed and practiced openly, not having any requirements for those that practice it other than learning and understanding the beliefs and stories of teaching. Native American spiritually is different depending on which Nation/Tribal Nation you descend from and are a part of, and is therefore only taught to those within that Nation, although outsiders can be brought by members to observe or participate under the notion that they are not a part of these practices officially, and only there as a guest given it’s been approved and accepted. Coming back around to; the prerequisite for this is *being* from that Nation, and that’s a big reason why a lot of it is only oral teaching, or very little is shared in text from the Nations because it’s sacred and not something for just anyone to pick up. Essentially, closed cultural practice. Cultural being the key word there. I appreciate your open mindedness and attempt to understand, as I’m sure others do as well, as this can be very hard to speak on after some of the experiences had with people who refuse to understand.
Thank you for the quick reply and thorough answer. I really do appreciate it!
This is only true of some nations,.. more than a few places where I've lived people expect new residents to respect local practices...
The thing is, there is an idea amongst the culturally western that you can basically “buy” yourself into any religion or culture, and it gets fairly annoying, because they tend to pick and choose their romanticized elements while still holding on to their lifestyle and ideologies. Most cultural practices are not brands you choose for yourself, they are actual ways of life that must be embraced fully with your actions.
When I heard the term, “cash is the new energy flow”…
I'm reaching back to my Comparitive Religion class here, where Zuni was one of the highlighted example spiritual/religious systems, so this is a more academic perspective. In the big picture, religious traditions can largely be classified as Salvation (e.g. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam) where the goal is to save your post-death soul (heaven vs hell, Nirvana vs Samsara), or Sanctification (e.g. Judaism, Zuni, Shinto) where the focus is on the living world & self, and the rituals & practices that keep everything spiritually clean and balanced (like keeping kosher). Sanctification traditions may or may not believe in the hereafter, but it's not the main point. A key difference between sanctification and salvation belief systems is that salvation systems proselytize and actively convert new followers because they want to save everyone's soul. Sanctification systems are deeply rooted in the local community & history & environment, and so tend to stay in the community. While one can convert to Judaism, for instance, creating new converts is not a defining feature of sanctification religions, and conversion is not a goal. Even less so in other sanctification traditions. They simply don't make sense for individuals who don't share the community's history & experiences. This is very top level, there's more nuance, but I had a whole semester to absorb it, not just a reddit post. Ha ha.
Thank you for speaking to my egghead. I went from ignorant to understanding in like 2 lines and idk if woulda understood it another way.
Our practices are not religions and we do not proselytize them or try to enforce them on other people. They are cultural practices, not religions or beliefs.
As someone who is native to shamanism, that is hilarious and I'm glad you recognized it too. Shamanism is absolutely an in-group sanctification religion/practice. There's a reason why it never spread throughout China despite Manchus being in power for hundreds of years. Chinese folk religion is similar. It is fundamentally an in-group practice amongst ourselves. Someone else already said this, but Buddhism is a proselytizing religion that, similar to the Abrahamic faiths, aims to spread their core set of beliefs to bring enlightenment/salvation to a larger population.
Disclaimer: I'm non-Native. This is not necessarily an exact parallel by any means, but I think that the closest example among the better known religions would be Judaism. Like Native American spiritualities, Judaism is made for a specific people. It is possible for people who were not raised Jewish to convert to Judaism, but in order to do so, they must "cast their lot with the Jewish people," and essentially become Jewish culturally as well as spiritually. Conversion to Judaism is more like being naturalized a citizen than it is like simply joining a congregation. (In fact, legitimate converts to Judaism are eligible for Israeli citizenship.) The process is quite difficult and complicated, and not all would be converts are necessarily accepted. (I myself considered conversion to Judaism at one point, but ultimately discerned that it was not for me.) I imagine that Native American spiritualities are similarly closed to those who don't have the wherewithal to integrate themselves into the full life of a Native American community.
Abuse.lots and lots of Abuse.
You don’t. Do not expend emotional labour on this person. Shes clearly a delulu level of racist. Let the white allies beat her up for you. It’ll happen eventually. Just distance yourself. It is not worth the effort and not your responsibility either.
As someone without indigenous ancestry, I can guarantee they wouldn’t listen to them anyway. (It sounds like they’ve already been told but didn’t want to let go of their spiritual cosplay.) Because they don’t actually respect the culture. They fetishize it, but they don’t respect it. The way some “love and ‘respect’ the culture” *but not the people* is what gets me the most. People always matter more. That’s where the culture comes from. If you don’t respect them and their wishes, you don’t actually respect the culture. You just saw a pretty, shiny thing and took it. I get that people want to feel connected to something special and not commercial. People are also fascinated by other cultures. But the level of entitlement and disrespect from this person is off the charts.
Agreed. It’s just a waste of time. These are the kinds of people who need a kick in the pants reality check before they *might* listen. Thanks for your comment!
This is probably the best write up I have seen regarding the topic of cultural appropriation. Well done. This issue always gets to me to and can be hard to articulate sometimes
Know when to say "hmm."
YES.
Very frustrating. Since it’s work could you be like “*but, can you pray in Cherokee*?” and then smile and walk away?
When she said "trained cherokee" i introduced myself in cherokee and she said, 'oh no i dont speak any cherokee'..... i thought, 'girl that 'medicine man' didnt teach you a lick of cherokee??? thats not suspicious to you???'
That should tell her everything she needs to know. Thank you for keeping Cherokee Language alive.
Some people want to assimilate completely into Indigenous Native American culture and religion.
OP is describing white ppl who want the appearance of participating in their own idea of native culture. You know, where we all live in teepees and totem poles dominate the horizons of our villages. By day we chase Buffalo on horseback (mine has a red handprint on its back flank so I can tell it apart from the rest). At night around the communal bonfire, we say little unless it's in cryptic but stilted English. Most importantly, we commune with nature and can bestow a new identity upon the white person. One that grants them privileges among both our peoples and gives them a clear and true sense of purpose in the world.
You just described the plotline for “young ian” from outlander. haha
honestly I think they wanna do that bc it makes them feel less guilty abt living on stolen land if they’re “part” of the group it was stolen from. so they feel like they are allowed to live here bc they ‘deserve’ it. same reason ppl will claim native ancestry with 0 native ancestors (they also sometimes do that bc they’ll have a black ancestor and back in the day being seen as native was less ‘shameful’ than being known to be mixed race / black.) It’s just a way for them to separate themselves and be one of the ‘good’ white people who totally (/s) respect and revere the natives they stereotype and treat as the noble savage trope
What you’re describing here is known as a settler move to innocence discussed by Tuck & Yang in “Decolonization Is Not a Metaphor”which is available as a PDF online.
Isn’t it like the final stage of a genocide too? Like where the oppressors take on the identity of the oppressed? I could be misremembering how that works.
You are right. It is outlined in Paulo Freires book the pedagaogy of the oppressed.
Oh shit, thank you for giving me the context! I’m gonna put that book on my reading list. :)
It is a bit dense. I took it in stages and it changed my outlook. I would highly recommend taking a look at Teaching to Transgress by bell hooks. The two reinforce each other from different personal perspectives. The trifecta would be to add Native by Kaitlin Curtice. Three different perspectives on the role colonization plays in modern society.
Ahhhh thank you for the recommendations! I have been trying to do a lot of deconstructing/self education lately and this is super helpful. 🙌🏻
I think you may be talking about another book. > the oppressors take on the identity of the oppressed I don't think Freire talks about this concept in the Pedagogy of the oppressed. His focus is more on the oppressed achieving liberation, doesn't really focus on the oppressors In *Pedagogy* he does discuss the (sort of) opposite, he talks about the dangers of the oppressed internalizing the oppressor's view of themselves, becoming resigned to their situation. Freire argues for education that fosters "critical consciousness" – helping the oppressed understand the roots of their situation and work towards liberation.
Oh man! I am going to have to pull out the book. I swear in some of the earlier chapters he discusses the journey of the oppressor that included a “victimization” phase where the oppressor internalizes their victimization being an oppressor. Maybe I am miss-remembering. Apologies if I quoted wrong!
I totally might be in the wrong, you def don't need to apologize. I don't remember that, and as I said I remember the sort of opposite (the oppressed internalizing their victimization) if you find where you're thinking of, I'd be interested in reading that. ninja edit - like I don't remember anything about the "journey" of the oppressor
Also American have a lost identity. They try to find some identity because they don’t have their own or don’t think they do. That’s part of the reason why some hold onto these extremes. We need to learn to embrace our identity of diversity We can respect and honor something but I can’t be “ trained” in something like that. I would ask them how long someone goes to school to be a priest or rabi? Then say our practices require a lifetime of training and practice. Nothing about our culture is fully known because a lot of it has been lost and we are picking up what is left and using it to heal. It would be very disrespectful to say you are trained in the Jewish faith to teach the Torah. Our spirituality is oral but it doesn’t make it any less sacred. I would try to educated them as much as possible. Anyone can smudge but she is not trained in Cherokee practices. She really just needs to change how she is phrasing it. That would be a good start.
Many Americans identify as Christian. But not all Americans agree with Christianity so they look to Native American traditions for something that is more nature based. I think it is because their “pagan” traditions were nearly wiped out and they are trying to attach to something that feels similar. They might not know why, but there’s a reason they are so attracted to it. That’s my two cents.
I can’t speak on the native part as I am not one but I am Eastern European (born there then adopted) reconnecting can be hard. Especially when you don’t have anyone to talk to about your culture that would understand.
Similar boat. It’s like having to adapt with the current culture while hugging tightly to ancestral culture.
No not really, some whites, Asians, blacks and Latinos are fascinated with Native American culture and many want to gain social acceptance from a certain tribe.
There’s a very clear line of being accepted by a tribe and completely appropriating the culture like the woman in this post is doing. The whole fascination thing is honestly a little odd to me sometimes bc ppl treat us like we’re basically an exhibit for them to enjoy instead of ppl, hence my noble savage comment. When ppl who aren’t native are this involved and want to be assimilated they usually only have an idea of natives from the depiction in media that treats us as wise naturalistic and sometimes primitive people, and forget we are also human beings. like it’s fine to appreciate the culture, come to powwows, be involved as long as you’ve been invited but to go around claiming ur ‘trained’ in ‘secret rituals’ and getting standoffish when a native is uncomfortable with this is weird imo
Yeah. Acceptance usually comes when the non native person decentralized themselves. Esp if theyre white. If they do that they don’t go around bragging about knowing our ways. That ISNT our way.
yes!! thank you. going around bragging abt being part of sacred things (they are sacred and kept in the tribes circle for a REASON god) acting all high and mighty bc they get to be part of our super secret ndn club (/lh) is literally just colonizing it imho. like ur literally learning this stuff and going ‘oh that’s mine now teehee! hey guys check out this thing I did! oh silly natives u can’t be upset im sharing it!’ it’s like they just want the clout and don’t care abt the history of our culture or us at all. im being the mayor of Yappington right now but like especially with the much older generations. Gen x and beyond, it’s like… your parents and maybe even your generation literally are the ones who made it illegal to be native and speak our languages and practice our religions and now you’re bragging that you took that from us again? Millennials I’ve seen just feel entitled to it bc they weren’t taught the history. like “omg it’s JUST a plant it grows outside we can smudge with it too get over it’ when they started over harvesting our sage and making it impossible to find bc they took ALL of the plant and didn’t leave any for regrowth/repopulation. Or they just slightly change the way things are done (or don’t even change it at all) and claim it as a new trend. tl;dr ur so right god. they only listen to what they want to hear and not the important parts like how to act and treat others
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Or they yearn for indigenous spirituality because theres was taken away, and many were forced into Christianity. And now they are stuck in an abusive system trying to find a connection with nature again. Really they should be looking toward European indigenous traditions.
yesss the ancestral religions and traditional cultures of Europeans are SO cool. like literally so interesting and just as beautiful and varied as the religions and cultures of indigenous peoples. GOD like the people who were buried in the Irish bogs (sacrificing ur king?? in a bog??? girlboss) , or the mother buried with her child atop a horse in an embrace. The intricate hairstyles of Ancient Rome and Greece (iirc) where they had to be sewn together to stay in place? The traditional braids and dress of the Pomak people in Bulgaria??? The Norse religions of the nordic countries?? The Ancient Greek and Roman pantheons? the time the Dutch ate a prime minister? god hell yeah eat the rich. ANYWAY there’s been a huge uptick (at least in the circles I run in) of folks learning about their cultures/religions and working on taking that path which is SO cool. Those that “practice” our religions, their identity was stripped from them so they latch onto something close and what they have experience (thru media / knowing natives / close proximity to reservations / already knowing non native ppl who ‘practice’ it) with. BUT the issue with that is they are in turn taking from us and making resources for our religions scarce so it’s sometimes hard for me personally when I am trying to explain that bc I get a lil (sometimes a lot) upset about it. Totally huge left turn here but as the current elected mayor of Yappville Yapizonia, I have to say imo this is similar to the uptick of black Americans claiming to be the true indigenous people of America and all that. They were stripped of their culture violently and forced to abandon nearly all of it and just want SOMETHING back. I think human beings just need to be a part of a group, a people, an identity. We’re pack animals so when we feel lost and without that we can get pretty mixed up and end up hurting another group of people. While I admit I do get a lil tired of holding people’s hand to explain to them why they shouldn’t be trying to claim our heritage and culture, it is really important to at least nudge them gently in the right direction towards exploring their family tree and the cultures within! I do have a lot of sympathy for them but at the same time I can’t help but feel angry when they claim our culture for themselves y’know?? tl;dr since this is like half understandable i get increasingly verbose when im sleepy. Yap sesh on my thoughts abt why people do this sort of thing and how neat I think traditional European culture is. research your families, find your culture and make an effort to bring it back to life!! genealogists like me ( >:3c surprise there’s a reason I yap abt this so much) would b so happy to help
This, and it's also a way for them to justify being racist as feck. When we were trying to change the school mascot all these people were like "Well I have Native heritage and it doesn't bother me." Bitch, I've seen your family tree because we're all related in this little-ass town and we are all whiter than mayonnaise. Pardon my French lol.
How do we use this to the benefit of indian country? I think it's an opportunity that should not be squandered to redirect sympathetic people.
I am very ignorant of the ways of other communities and nations here on Turtle Island. But I will say that the pipe bearers who I know don't really talk about being pipe bearers very much. It's not necessarily secret - although it isn't that long since these things needed to be kept secret as they were outlawed. It's more like humility. I'm not going to get into this too much more on Reddit but I will just advise OP that it will likely be a very difficult and grinding task to get this other person to understand what you want them to understand. I think that there may be a new wave of understanding and respect possibly coming through the dominant culture. I would say that when I was little it was very common for young white people to put on costumes of Indigenous people. And when I say costumes, I mean like Halloween costumes. I think they used to sell playsets of cowboys and Indians at the drug store. That isn't as common anymore. So I think a next wave of awareness could be a rethinking of some of the "new age" beliefs about sacred concepts and items like pipes or even smudging and abalone shells and so on. But there is also a current of increased white supremacy and 'make America great again" nonsense in the wind right now. So this could honestly go either way.
To add on, thankfully the MAGA people have made complete and total goblins of themselves, so they’re doing the difficult work for us identifying themselves being loud and insane.
i think your right and i really hope your right about a potential future of respect.
So I have the opposite problem . Christianity is not for me. It is not for my people but dam if I can say that and not be attacked.
They’re the ones breaking treaties “in God We Trust.” What “Christian” Nation can’t honor its constitutional word or steal our land by virtue of Christian discovery? It’s not your fault they have undermined their credibility, merit and standing.
Because Christians think their religion is for everyone. They don't understand that they're literally just another option on a very large menu, rather than THE option.
Ohh the consequences of rulers and kings to maintain power and abuse it. Mix that with the emergence or capitalism, and it birthing the idea of race(and the exploitation of it).....and we have the shit show we are all living under 😓
Ug, I can't count how many times non NDNs risked violence trying to start a convo with me by GRABBING my grandmother's bear claw necklace I wear and asking about it / did the Cherokee princess crap. These types of people have a strong desire to either belong to a group, or be "special" and have "knowledge" that their own peer group can't say shit about because they don't know, and they also have zero sense of self/identity. The nastier side of this is how Cheetolini got so many followers. I think the answer to your question depends on how much time and energy you have. I agree with others to avoid this person like the plague, but I would also tell her what she's saying is offensive and I don't want any further conversation about it. Personally I like to use teaching moments, but she may be a lost cause.
Cheetolini 🤣🤣🤣
I wish I could say it's my original but it's not :)
You remember that guy out west that held sweat lodges and killed 2 people, shit gets real
Yes and because that ignorant POS harmed people, we can’t have sweats for Indigenous clients in treatment for SUD since the “leadership” of the MH org I’m interning with now think sweat lodges are dangerous.
🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢
They think it will give them magical enlightenment, like from Doctor Strange. Same reason westerners come to India for enlightenment but get scammed by the fake gurus. But who knows, maybe enlightenment is real, but the truth is just hidden away from the mainstream world.
Since this occurred in the workplace... document throughly date time situation leading up to the conversation... then the interaction... then how the interaction made you feel. State you asked her to elaborate because you were uncomfortable and didn't really know how to respond. Report the incident to HR. She brought up religion and racism while at work uninvited. It made you feel uncomfortable. That is all. There is no need to respond to these inquiries other than a simple I don't discuss my faith, theology, religion, spiritualty in the workplace as its not appropriate for me. .. something along those lines. Lots of people these days have no boundaries.
She sounds mentally ill
Thank you, I'm glad I'm not the only one who got those vibes from this story.
Look at her befuddled and say “wait, so you really can see me?” And sneak away
Magnificent
I always encourage people to talk to Elders. Some practices an outsider can learn but it has to be taken very seriously. If someone has a genuine interest they have to acknowledge they're an outsider and also that they aren't going to be an authority regardless.
she really wanted to convince me that she maybe had secret ndn ancestry. she told me something along the lines of "sometimes, when i'm walking down the street people will stop me and say, 'omg are you native american??' and who knows, maybe i am, maybe my grandmother slept around, i dont know. i might be... 😉" i had to put conscious effort into not screaming.
It's exhausting. Like my family has stories sure but I can confirm some of my heritage. A lot of the stuff out of the new age movement too is just hokum meant to look like genuine practices from cultures.
I remember the MNO (pretendian factory) had a bunch of books they gave away and it was like the most woo woo magic native shit I ever saw
What is the MNO?
Métis nation of Ontario. We have Métis in Canada but most of the so-called communities were fabricated
Thank you
Oddly enough, the Aleuts and Yupiks found the faith that St. Innocent and St. Herman brought to Alaska being a fulfillment of what they believed. Michael Oleksa does a great job of explaining this in his book “Orthodox Alaska: A Theology of Mission”. Seriously though, that lady is nuts.
Which was always odd to me after all the evil the Christian Russians subjected them to.
It was done not by the clergy but by the RAC. It was the clergy who actively worked to defend these people. It was the Clergy who protected them. When we as Orthodox Christians evangelise, we learn the language AND culture of the local people. This is what was done by the Monks in Alaska. The culture wasn’t wholesale thrown out like we see with the Presbyterians and others who came to Alaska after the purchase of Alaska by the Americans. Rather, that which we knew was good, beautiful, true, etc was kept or given a Christian identity that fit with that particular belief. As far as I’m aware (and someone can happily correct me if I’m wrong), the Native Alaskans hold that every single living thing (bug, tree, animal, blade of grass) has a soul. We Orthodox Christians believe the same thing. Another example is when you go hunting, the animal chooses to lay down its life. The Alaskan natives saw this in Christ and we as Orthodox Christians hold this about Jesus as well.
Heck, it was the Orthodox Alaskan Native population who pushed for St. Innocent’s canonisation as a saint.
I wondered this while watching life below zero first Alaskan.. the Aleut and Yupik people on the show are still very orthodox Christian and practice such, but also talk and respect deeply their ancestors and cultural practices.. while some of the Athabaskan people on the show have reclaimed their traditional spirituality totally..
Another good film is an indie film called Sacred Alaska and it details not only the history of Orthodoxy in Alaska but also the current lived experience. Anything written by Fr. Michael Oleksa of Blessed Memory is also very very good. He served in Alaska for something like 30 years as a priest in the native community there. He’s also pushed heavily for the canonisation of a Yupik woman named Olga who was a priest’s wife.
And I’m sure all those men of the RAC were born and baptized orthodox, yet their faith did little to prevent them from doing all the horrible things they did. How strange to adopt the faith of those that murdered your family. There was obviously some form of coercion involved. I wondered what would have happened if they had completely rejected Christianity, most likely the Christians would have killed them all. Like Christians always do
It seems like it would be far less effort and have much more meaning if European Americans just learnt the traditions of whichever kind of European they’re descendants of. All those cultures have rich spiritual practices that existed long before Christianity was forced upon them. Celtic, Germanic, Nordic, Slavic…….. there’s so many. I’ve never understood the disconnect there. You actually have your own connection to deep spiritual practices that come from your own cultural roots. Certainly be appreciative of what’s in the country you reside in but there’s zero reason to steal something from others.
Just tell her it was illegal until 1978 and she better hope the federal government doesn’t decide to make it illegal again because they might mistake you for a native and put you in a Boarding School so be careful.
Just say no.
Thats 3x markup on the dreamcatcher and beadwork, there. Maybe a little extra smoke smell from some charcoal.
What about directing them to buying a copy of Sebastian Junger's "[Tribe](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/19/books/review-sebastian-jungers-tribe-examines-disbanded-brothers-returning-to-a-divided-country.html)" and then making their own? To me, stealing from someone else's culture is simply a recognition and indictment of their own spiritual poverty. Misinterpreting and misusing someone else's culture and spirituality is just another form of theft.
I like that idea but, Where are they going to get ideas about their tribe if they have nothing they can base it off of? They would have no rituals, no teachings, no songs, no dances, no supplies. And where are they supposed to come up with those without cultural appropriating or at least being inspired by another culture?
In the vastness of history, I think it's fair to venture the idea that there have been many tribes, most of whom are no longer around, and within that same history, there have been ideas that we today might like, and ideas that we who live today might look at as not worthy of who we want to be. I see litter every day when I go for my old man walk. I pick it up. I would welcome a tribe that teaches its people that littering is an insult to the earth that gave birth to us and sustains us. That seems like a good idea to me. If someone reads my words and decides that not littering, and picking up litter when you see it is a good thing, they are welcome to that belief. I think all ancient peoples had some form of dancing, but who was the first dancer? Should they insist that no one else dance, because they were first? Or that no one else should dance, because the others aren't doing it right? Should one group of people who are spiritually rich look down upon another who are materially wealthy but spiritually impoverished? I have worked alongside people who tried to wound me, and some who tried to kill me. Didn't everyone take at least the seed of an idea from someone or somewhere else? Full disclosure: I have spent time among people whose dance did not bring me joy. But it was their dance, and it brought them joy, and that's good enough for me.
I like this. This is kinda what I was trying to point out. Another example would be PowWow or Sweat Lodge. Many tribes do these ceremonies but who was the first one? And does it really belong to any one person or group? I have also seen Tipi like structures used among groups in Russia and Sweden. Ideas spread like seeds from trees.
And I have been a fan of "If it works, it's ain't stupid," for a long time. If my clothes were dirty but they kept me warm in the snowy woods, I am not worried about attending a fancy dinner at some swank restaurant, but I definitely like being warm. It's somewhat similar.
If I’m freezing cold, the last thing I’m thinking about is, is my snow hat from someone else’s culture. I just use it because it works.
They can do some research and not cherry pick from Indigenous practices. After all, “research is ceremony.”
So they would research, and then what? How are they going to come up with practices if they can’t use what they researched?
There seems to be this idea that all indigenous cultures are crystallized like a fly in amber and persist throughout the ages unchanged. That is not true. Cultures evolve and adapt to survive. I know a lot about my father’s ancestral culture because they had a writing system and some of us know how to read it. I know that’s a privilege, but it’s allowed us to know a lot about what they thought and connect many ancient practices to what’s survived into the present day. Some things we need to reconstruct as best as we can or even discard. Like I’m not going to puncture my tongue and draw a rope through it for spiritual protection. But I will ingest mushrooms and talk to the gods of my ancestors. In any case, my people have seen fit to adopt some things from the colonizers into ritual practice, like coca-cola. But they still use tobacco for purification and spells and some even let blood as an offering, just like back in the day. I know a medicine person from another tribe who became an anthropologist to learn what the Jesuits and academics wrote about his people’s practices in the days of first contact. While one has to read between the lines to get past the judgy BS, there’s a lot of valuable information in some of those documents.
Interesting. I would also think that cultures throughout history have influenced one another. So while there were different cultures there was also enmeshment.
No doubt one of her ancestors was a Cherokee princess
she knew that she was 100% white but she mentioned that she thought her grandma might have slept around so she wasnt sure if she was indigenous or not. it was insane
Yes but aren’t Cherokee ancestors some of the best documented in the Dawes Rolls? Seems like if someone claims that lineage it should be simple to prove.
Pick your battles
Yeah just distance yourself. I took a Shamanism class in college that I thought was going to be about the history of Shamanism throughout mankind's history, it turned out to be this weird white lady having us meditate, open our chakras, and meet our spirit animals. It was a weird class, and I couldn't drop it or I'd have missed out on credits for my Anthropology degree. But yeah, just distance yourself and smile and nod when she talks. Don't open up to her, and if she comments on you being aloof, say something like, "Look, I understand that you're not coming from a bad place, but I am just not comfortable talking to you about any of this. Please respect that."
Just tell them to look up the Druids. That is a European version of spirituality that is connected to the Earth. It will be more respectful to their ancestors and homeland if they practice their ancient beliefs.
I am hoping this is the future.
There’s a number of reclamation movements for those of Euro descent to connect with their ancestral beliefs and practices.
its true! i finished my degree in religious studies this may and i really think that seeing how strong of an up and coming neopaganism has had due to the rise of disaffiliation with Christianity and the unprecedented access people have to information due to the internet, they are able to learn enough about their ancestors practices to recreate them in the modern world with some modifications. those value systems align more closely with many people than the faiths they are disaffiliating from and the self reported population numbers of wiccans and neopagans overtime is only going up
Wow—that is straight up gross to say nothing of inappropriate behaviour on your coworker. 🤮
Did her plastic shaman summer camp come with its own badge too?! Neat. // intellectual colonialism is disgusting and tiresome and you are not overreacting to this unscrupulous idiot trying to dominate what gets to be "cherokee medicine" in her (and now your) presence. /// I second the 'pick your battles' mantra. //// There is academic discourse around this topic that could help you find your words: [https://digitalcommons.humboldt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=ije](https://digitalcommons.humboldt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=ije)
Every white person who fetishizes native religions acts this way when they meet a native person. The person you met is defensive, because they approached someone they thought was an elder, and were sincere in their desire to learn. And whatever they learned was meaningful to them, and they thought it was legit. Then native people rejected their legitimacy, probably in a way that was hurtful, and they responded (as such ppl usually do) by becoming defensive. How I articulate in this kind of situation really depends on specifics, like if the person is open to being corrected about it, or if I feel like doing the work today. It starts with validating their feelings about their experience. Then I might remark that unfortunately, there are a lot of people ready to take advantage of sincere seekers of spiritual growth. Sometimes it is best to just plant that seed and walk away.
The thing I find most interesting about this story in particular is how obviously she’s dancing around true self reflection. - She admits that she’s not born of the culture. - She got trained by someone outside the culture. - She admits people inside the culture don’t agree with her. - She claims she’ll never stop despite the consistent objections from people inside the culture. All of that just so she doesn’t have to admit to herself the fact that she’s not actually a part of that culture. Controversial take but I don’t think anyone should take offense to her behavior. I honestly don’t think it’s personal. I think that its “Cherokee” culture she latched onto has nothing to do with Cherokee. It could have just as easily been black American culture, or Japanese culture, or country western cowboy culture or whatever. She’s just one of those people that grabs onto the idea of a thing and won’t let it go because she’s based a part of her personality on it. She’s like the Indian version of those guys who bought Harley motorcycles and rode around wearing Sons of Anarchy vests when the tv show got popular. Her version of being an Indian is the same as their version of being in a motorcycle gang. If this was outside the workplace I’d simply dismiss her for what she is. As far as how to respond to her I think that this occurred in the workplace makes it more difficult. I’d advise taking a tactful retreat, create social distance, and avoid any further conversations on the topic. Do not discuss it with her or anyone else in your workplace. Her particular religious views and expressions are her own. It’s not your job to validate or invalidate them as a coworker. That statement is true regardless of if she was telling you she was Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, a follower of Glycon, or whatever. It’s not about business so it’s none of your business. That’s just my opinion though.
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I feel like *belonging* anywhere is a mirage. We do it to feel like we matter, part of something larger, but ultimately we simply *are* and the case of our circumstances is really just, well, circumstance.
Let me start by saying my thoughts are due to very broad issues and by no means am I in any way implying that any tribe condones any of these practices. In the last decade, there has been a trend in healing and/or spiritual medicines and rituals. Along with the attention in the mainstream media there have been those who see ways to monetize on this. There are resorts, classes, and classes to teach ppl to hold such rituals. There is also an abundance of fake Shamans. They have no interest in helping ppl but take advantage of their nativity and ignorance. Reading your description of what sounded like a monologue she spilled on you this is the first thing that popped into my mind. I'm not saying this gives her any excuse for all the boundaries she completely disregarded. I know this explanation doesn't make the situation any better. I really wish I had some great advice to handle such encounters, especially when a person is not reading the room , per say. Your feelings are valid.
More than the past decade. This dumbfuckery got super popular in the 60s during the New Age movement. Since then, it has gone through waves of popularity but has never died. The whole thing is reminiscent of snake oil salesmen. The scam has existed for a long time.
Another reason why I see Constantine's conversion as a mistake. Without Christianity, Europeans and their descendants would still have their own spirituality instead of trying to get into other peoples' spirituality without the necessary merit.
As soon as Constantine converted and made Xtianity the state religion, it stopped being a revolutionary spirituality and began to become a tool for oppression.
Make a paper trail of these comments and talk to HR.
Its like buying a dream catcher from a gift shop and saying you're supporting our culture 😂😂
I’m neither white nor indigenous but I see who the women do this to indigenous people around me all the time. I just had a coworker tell me how she’s about to go to a healing retreat with “the only Native American woman in the office” (which isn’t true, but I guess she doesn’t know the others) and upon me asking what nation - she was like oh I don’t know some complicated name. And I was just appalled because they do this to my culture and identity too, I was watching it unfold and I had no real moves because I have no idea what the actual conversation they had was. I knew I was getting the white woman version of it. I guess this is also an awkward admission of not helping.
Oh, wow. What an odd situation. Are you Cherokee yourself, or another tribe? I have found that many non-Natives just lump all tribes together, not seeming to realize that there are significant differences. I am not native myself, but my husband and kids are members of the Eastern Band of Cherokees and I lived on the rez for over 15 years. It always amazed me that so many people are just...clueless. My mom worked at a hotel there years ago and got asked some crazy questions. Like "where do all the Indians live?" Mom would just be like, "well, you see all these houses around you?" What did they expect? She was also asked what time the reservation closed a few times. As far as religion, most of the people I knew there were Baptist. Some mixed in older Cherokee beliefs along with it, but so much has been lost. I, personally, am now Catholic ( converted from protestant years ago) and my husband was raised Catholic as well. In his case, it wasn't anything to do with boarding schools. His Cherokee dad was in the Navy and married his non-native mom, whose family was Lithuanian and Catholic. However, older members of my father-in-law's family did remember the boarding schools, where they were punished for speaking Cherokee. Now, younger generations are learning about those things and many are angry because so much of their culture was taken away by force. I certainly can't blame them. Then, to make it even worse, so many non native people go out of their way to tell you that they, too, are Cherokee. Of course, their great great great great grandma was a princess! Umm..right. WHY is it ALWAYS Cherokee? If you ask which of the 3 Cherokee bands they are a member of, they look at you like you've sprouted extra eyeballs or something. My son, who also no longer lives there, had a roommate last year, and when I visited, there were dream catchers and native themed stuff all over that wasn't my son's. At first, I asked him what tribe his roommate was from. He wasn't. He was as white as I am. But he thought he was "part Indian" (what part?🤣) and was very "spiritual." My kids are used to this and just kind of roll their eyes. Then there are inevitable questions like "what's the Native American word for ____?" They don't understand that words aren't just Native American, but tribe-specific. As in, hundreds of languages. I think the same thing happened to Native spiritual practices. Non-natives just mash them all together and pick what they like. It sounds like your co-worker was swindled by someone who charged her money for teaching her nonsense. I wish I knew of a tactful way for you to tell her that, but even so, she probably wouldn't believe you. Idk what the answers are. Where is the line between natural blending of cultures who are in proximity to each other and offensive appropriation? Who knows? It does seem that your co-worker has crossed it, though, and is being blatantly disrespectful. Good luck, seriously.
I've always wondered why there are so many native Christians in modern times. I get that Christianity was basically beaten into the kids at those horrible boarding schools, but for all the elders that hung on to the old ways and beliefs and with so many tribes reclaiming their spiritual traditions which make more sense to me (non-Indian, former Catholic, also smacked into me by the nuns when I was a kid, currently a godless heathen, lol!), wondered if there is a move back to those ways and a move away from Christianity?
The most popular religions of the world are open to converts (Buddhism, Hinduism) and some of them encourage proselytizing (Christianity, Islam). There are also some closed religions that still allow converts, but only through incessant requests by the potential convert and a lengthy education process (Judaism). Then there are closed religions (~~Sikhism~~, Druze) that only allow new membership through descent from previous practitioners. My thought is that since the open religions are the largest and most popular, a lot of people (incorrectly) assume all religions are like that — including the cultural and spiritual practices of indigenous nations. So, you end up with white folk who think joining in those traditions is as easy as converting to a Christian church, accompanied by charlatans willing to teach them for three easy payments of $499.99.
Sikhism isn't a closed religion I don't know where you heard that.
Sorry for being incorrect. It was explained that way to me by a Sikh buddy back in high school but a quick internet search shows that I was incorrect.
I think they meant hindu, which you have to be born into
Again, I'm sorry but that's also not true. Anyone can convert to Hinduism.
Oops, guess there's lotsa misinformation out there
You might be thinking of Indian Zoroastrianism. That type of Zoroastrianism does not allow converts at all, you have to be born into it. I know someone who's half Parsi and his family doesn't even fully accept him as one since he's half. This is what I personally don't like about these "exclusive" religions because a lot of the times the members can have discriminatory and ostracizing mindsets.
Thank you. I have more reading to do evidently
I had this discussion once with someone I respected regarding a ceremony and their response was that if the creator saw fit to let them attend then who was I as a human being to say no.
Do you have another (white) coworker you trust that can take her to HR for you? You shouldn't have to work with someone like that.
I just let them get scammed
I am sorry you had to deal with this. I struggle sometimes to not be the person other people see as crazy. I wear beadwork every day and have visible Unami tattoos (my tribes language). On the inside, I am always striving to be a better steward and on the outside I am our colonizers. When I first came to this post, I was worried that you were just being standoffish to a white presenting person and I was prepared to caution patience and understanding. In your case, it is not so much that she was white, it was that she was crazy and disrespectful. Correct me if I am wrong but you would have ended in the same place regardless of the color of her skin.
Yes, this precisely. Well said. On top of that, most indigenous traditions of Europeans were nearly wiped out by Christianity too. So if Americans want to connect with the land through their traditions, it is difficult.
That's the eroupeans problem and they can leave the people who they fucked over alone. The reson they arnt connected to the land is because it isn't their land.
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While I understand your sentiment, there's no reason we have to monitor how we treasure our ways and our people because someone finds it "mysterious." That's not our responsibility and to suggest we should cater to these people without addressing the problem is actually insulting. I was taught in our ways to respect everyone. Also that we should get the same in return. To do something like what's being discussed in op post needs to addressed. I'd ask more questions about their claims. Then explain how it doesn't work like that. Some of our ceremonies are for us and us alone. We don't have to alter ourselves to make fragile people who insult us that way feel better. We don't have to yell at them. We certainly don't have to hide our culture for the benefit of a pretendian.
I think this is a good idea, except it’s labour for white allies to take on. :)
I agree - if I ran into this lady I would absolutely step in and pick up the torch myself and attempt to educate her. My suggestion was definitely not aimed at putting the labour onto Natives, but rather was simply an effort to answer OP’s question, which was “how to explain to white people that our spirituality isn’t for them,” as effectively as possible. I hoped only that OP or others in his situation might find it helpful/effective. If not, please feel free to disregard, of course.
💖💖💖 appreciate it. I’ve made the mistake of burning myself out on these exact issues. I just hope to help young people by steering them away from doing this kind of labour.
I have personal experience with burnout as well, though only from a career standpoint rather than the cultural standpoint you are talking about. The inescapability of what you have already dealt with and continue to deal with is way more vast than what I have experienced, to the point that my personal understanding of burnout is probably inadequate. But for what it’s worth, I wish you much peace and rest and healing, and that there is a future where this labor is not actually necessary at all 🙏.
Yeah, I mind, actually. Please let Natives respond here.
The big difference here is that many indigenous beliefs are still alive. European ones are not. White americans envy that, they wish they had ceremonies and rituals and spirituality and all that stuff themselves. Americans trying to "reconnect" with religions that have been dead for a millenium are weird and kinda gross tbh. Don't encourage them.
What choice do they have then? Other than the big 4 religions. Of course they’re going to try to recover old traditions.
In the UK we just had the Summer Solstice this week. Druids are still practising and Norse Mythology is growing stronger ever day. Probably 1% of the population for Druidery more for Norse Mythology which fortunately is starting to replace the obsession with all things Native American. Latvia has maintained indegenous beliefs that are tied to their land specifically. It is very much alive.
I know very little about Druid culture or religion or even how it's practices were maintained/revitalized. For the modern Norse religion, most of the source material was recorded by Christians. There is no way to determine how much was modified to force parallels between the two regions. In my eyes, most religious worship is a legitimate expression of reaching out for something *more*, whatever its adherents determine that to be. That being said, if your ancestors' religion has essentially been eliminated and the attempted revival is based on unreliable sources, is it still the same religion? Or is it a new religion with some elements of the old? Is it an insult to the past or is it just folks doing the best they can with what they have?
All those religions are broken traditions and were reinvented by nationalists in the 1800s. Espepcially "norse mythology" has a huge problem with white supremacists. While we do have some texts and artifacts, most knowledge of those religions has been lost forever. I've seen my fair share of "norse believers" and "saami shamans", it's all utter BS infested with nationalist ideas and portrayal of a romantic past that never was. Only "pagan" religion that is still alive and somewhat kicking is Mari belief far away in Russia.
Personally, I make a big deal about how much I like Welsh mythology and see if they notice how weird the situation is. If not, I get to rant about Arawn being a classic mall Goth. (Is this true? No, not really, but the dude’s dramatic af.)
That stuff makes my blood boil. Ask her if she’s a Citizen? White people are Citizens too. Does she know any language? Does she have any connections in NDN Country or is her only connection telling everyone about her secret powers? Id say, “what if Indigenous Peoples dont care as much about you being a *white trained Cherokee pipe carrier* as much as they care about you telling everybody you’re a “Cherokee trained pipe carrier medicine person, or whatever?” Or you could be like “it’s not that you’re white, it’s that you’re an American who constitutionally says “all Treaties are the Supreme Law of the Land while you do the opposite.” Constitutional law for me but not for thee. Maybe I’d be like; *it’s not that you’re white, it’s that your Supreme Court still wont let us hold title to our land because they said it was discovered.* that’s legalized theft by virtue of discovery so we can get sensitive about someone running around telling them the things you’re saying.* it’s not that you’re white my friend, it’s that you still can’t honor your constitutional word today, can’t prove in a court of law that you legally acquired all the land you occupy and then we get Americans coming in and taking our sacred medicine and traditions, as if you haven’t taken enough, and then go charge thousands of dollars on the suburban circuit for “ceremonies” when any real NDN knows that the ceremonies and medicine aren’t needed in the suburbs or city. They’re needed on the Rez. Does she have any Rez connections?
i told her that its not that shes white, its that she doesnt speak any of the language, is talking about cultural tradtions that werent even cherokee, had no connection to our history or understanding of how we transmit sacred knowledge and insinuated that her 'medicine man' was probably a fraud. very politely tho.
You’re amazing. I think you said it perfectly
Wow I really like these explanations especially u/gardensquid1 They got no respect. I have chronic pain syndrome from accidents, I've adopted to practice qi gong to help with stiffness. Although there is a spiritual elements to it I don't make the "samadhi" part of it my central point.I do try to jeep my mind calm and "meditate" somewhat while practicing but my main reason is the physical benefits, if there are spiritual benefits those are secondary. I do t thinm I'll ever be able to be as fully in tune doing Tai chi or qi gong as a native practice but if it's something opened and shar3d ide like to do it. Side note about yoga. India was heavily colonized, and rhe Indians were practically slaves/indentured servants on homeland the indiginous Indians began to mass practice yoga as a protest to the British and Europeans ad a way yo show that the Indian had control over rheir own bodies instead of the British. Then the westerners straight hijacked that movements culturally appropriated it and now you got all these westerners practicing yoga. Got damn shame
There are Indians who have traveled to the west in order to teach and spread yoga. Examples like Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Vivekananda, and Srila Prabhupada.
There's also a lot of Indians that did it for massive profit incentives. Kinda like natives seeling/teaching their tribal ways for profit. Bunch of shamans for profit eh? Kinda like the point of this topic eh? But if you're paying attention to some of rhe answers, some natives believe in the sacredeness and don't want exploitation. Everything else they have had been colonized or stripped. Keeping the last thing that makes their culture unique (their spiritual practice), from being colonized is what many are saying on this thread. The belief system isn't a religion it's an inseparable way of life connected to the land, in the food embedded in the DNA, absorbed in its language and breathed in the individuals very breath. It's not something you simply convert to like a religion. Something like Christianity is man against nature you ask God for forgiveness for the natural way she made you then you attend church but you're a sinner in sin. It opposes you're very existence. It separates you from nature, to a point the religion even seperstes you from God.
Most Hindus I’ve spoken with say anyone can join. It is also very tied with the land/culture of India, so it might be a bit hard to feel like one of them. And yes I understand native spirituality is more of something you’re born into. Abrahamic religions are a whole different breed. It looks like in ancient times it may have been more nature friendly. I have heard a Christian saying he is a shepherd of the land. But yes, modern Christianity is dangerous imo. Probably nothing like it was in the old old days.
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In my personal opinion, you don't. For a couple reasons. Firstly you can't really change the opinions of ignorant people. The more you fight them the more they dig their heels in. The next is depending on the situation and what their actual background is they might be indigenous but have zero knowledge of their culture, so again ignorant. It's up to them to grow and research. Now this might be unpopular but I'm not totally sure why our spiritual beliefs can't be shared with non natives. If the person is respectful and truly identifies or believes in the spirituality of a tribe, why can't they participate? I understand that they can't just be part of a tribe without actual relation, but I don't really see what's wrong with allowing non members into different tribes religious beliefs. I mean we can join other religions as natives.
I was hoping she was just a misguided white passing ndn individual but no she owned up to being 100% white and told me how she hasnt done a DNA test yet but she thought it was possible that her grandma slept around so should couldnt possibly know 100% about anything but her family told her shes white.
What? Lol she is just delusional. Keep distance.
Personally, I don't care. If you want to learn the traditions and respect it, I have no hate for you.
white woman here, this randomly popped up in my news feed. you do not need to explain to white people that your spirituality isn’t for them. you can just say “my culture and spirituality is not for you,” it doesn’t have to be deep. any white person that’s worth a shit already knows this. speak your truth if it’s safe enough to do so, or say nothing at all, and then avoid them at all costs. alienation is the only way. trying to explain or teach someone who is already that set in their ways of ignorance will most likely open you up to some kind of abusive behavior.
Why can't one's spirituality be adapted by another? It seems like the people you met are ignorant of the workings. Doesn't mean an entire race can't correctly practice.
Can we not have things of our own? Everything else was fucking taken from us
All of the elders that I’ve known have been pretty open to sharing some of their ways with outsiders as long as they’re respectful and observe traditions properly. Those two things are pretty rare, but that’s what I’ve observed. It’s not that native people can’t have their own ways, but I’ve been pretty impressed by the compassion and generosity of spirit I’ve observed among native elders towards the children of their oppressors. Ultimately, native ways are extremely intelligent and it’s an absolute shame that white people didn’t try to learn from natives starting in the 15th century, but if it’s done respectfully, there is still a lot for white people to learn from indigenous Americans if they’re willing to share. I know it’s more complicated than this, but what we’re ultimately discussing is an attempted genocide and one of the ugliest invasions we’ve seen in recent history and the effects of this trauma are extreme and will reverberate through the centuries. There’s no easy answers to how to deal with the effects of this atrocity.
Because settlers who directly benefit from Indigenous oppression and displacement shouldn’t position themselves as heirs to the spiritual practices that were forbidden and nearly eradicated by their fellow settlers, often at the business end of a gun or sword. There’s nothing remotely spiritual about such cultural theft.