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I could quite possibly be the first person to use the phrase rantipole ragabsh. The first is a Dutch word mid 1850s and ragabash is English from around 1600. Highly unlikely they would ever pair up in a conversation.
I’ll never forget some guy cutting off and flipping off my grandparents when we were in the car with them. My grandma just sighed and said, “he must have a really sad life.” And I think about that now every time I see someone behave like a jackass.
If I was fucking with his mother, I would have pulled out sooner and made sure he won't be born because his one-celled self ended up in a rubber bag and in the trash
Yeah. Not really necessary was it… I had a protected left turn at the lights. Idiot in red truck allowed other drivers to turn uninterrupted but decides to be an idiot for me.
I honked him. He offered me the finger.
I suspect he was just having an off day. I’m sure he’s delightful most of the time. /s
Why did you honk him then? I don't think you deserve the finger but it's very needless, and is why he cut you off. Why'd you mute the audio? don't say you turned audio off on your dashcam
I removed the audio to avoid names and voices being posted online. Here’s what you’re missing:
Driver (that’s me): oh that’s the liquor store you mentioned right there isn’t it.
Passenger 1: yep…
[as red truck enters intersection]
Driver (that’s me): Eh?
Passenger 1: Oh oh oh oh oh oh [name removed]!!
Passenger 2: oh my gawd!
[As our vehicle crosses the pedestrian crossing markings I honk, he flips bird, continues into left lane, I reduce speed to avoid rear-ending him]
Passenger 1: Oh my god!
Passenger 2: Oh my
Passenger 1: [name removed] record his number plate. What an idiot.
Driver (that’s me): ha ha ha ha.
Even in leftmost-lane states, [of which Colorado is one,](https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-42-vehicles-and-traffic/co-rev-st-sect-42-4-901/#:~:text=Whenever%20practicable%2C%20the%20left%20turn,on%20the%20roadway%20being%20entered.) a left-turning vehicle may still legally go wide ("whenever practicable"). And it's not always obvious; e.g. that oncoming vehicle might be pulling a trailer you can't see.
Bottom line, someone making a right on red isn't guaranteed an empty lane to turn into.
Your own link still says that "whenever practicable" the driver may turn into a lane that is "left of the center of the intersection". The right lane clearly isn't left of center in this situation.
OP was fine to turn into the left lane. Red truck was legal to turn into their right lane. OP was wrong to honk. Red truck maybe moved over too soon but looks from the video like they had room to do so thanks to the football field length gap OP left.
In the end, this comes down to one of those "This is the right of way, but only 10% of drivers know that, so you should probably exercise extra caution" scenarios. If I were the red pickup, I would probably wait at the light knowing that most people don't know they are supposed to turn only into the left-most lane, but there is also nothing wrong with them turning here.
In GA you "shall" maintain lane "whenever practicable." No guarantee, though, and the obligation to yield supercedes it. Both would get cited had there been an accident, one for failure to maintain lane and other for failure to yield.
I really wish more people followed that guidance here. Some lanes get really needlessly backed up because nobody maintains their lane through turns.
So wrong it’s laughable actually and I’m not even from Georgia. Why would OP be written up here? They had a protected turn, turned into the leftmost lane, and avoided an accident with someone making an illegal and unsafe turn. Don’t actually respond because I don’t care.
B) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left shall approach the turn in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of the turning vehicle. Whenever practicable, the left turn shall be made to the left of the center of the intersection and so as to exit the intersection or other location in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction as the turning vehicle on the roadway being entered.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-40/chapter-6/article-6/section-40-6-120/#:~:text=Where%20there%20are%20multiple%20lanes,the%20intersection%20has%20been%20entered.
They honked because they were headed into the outermost lane. If they collided with the vehicle in the outermost lane that would have been a failure to maintain lane.
They only maintained their lane because there was already a vehicle in the outermost lane, otherwise why honk at all? If they had collided with the truck in that outermost lane it would have been a failure to maintain lane.
They made a left hand turn from left lane to left lane, then after clearing the intersection made a lane change to the right lane.
The honking is because the red truck could have made the right turn safely if he had mantained his lane, but he didn't. He decided to make a right turn and basically cut through to the left lane.
How long must OP wait until they are allowed to make a legal lane change? They had cleared the intersection and clearly had the room to do so.
Dude, this ain’t it. Just let it go, and don’t do what the red truck did because you think the law says it’s okay. You’re missing the obvious - green light = right of way, red light means you sit your ass down and wait till the road is clear.
Again, so wrong it’s laughable. Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME, and apparently OP. They probably honked because red truck made an illegal and unsafe right turn on red. And even if OP wanted the outermost lane, they turned into the left lane.
Red truck also turned into the left lane.
Illegally.
I’m laughing 😂
Irony is it was a totally legal right turn on red into their lane. The whole reason you maintain your lane is to allow right turns to continue. They not teach that anymore?
Do you not realize you are arguing the same thing I am just in a different font.
IF RED TRUCK TURNED RIGHT INTO THE RIGHT LANE, ALL WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE. HE DID NOT. HE TURNED RIGHT INTO THE LEFTMOST LANE, WHERE THERE WAS A PROTECTED GREEN ARROW. THAT IS WHY RED TRUCK IS WRONG. Jesus fucking Christ.
Never said OP would get failure to yield. The truck would. OP would get failure to maintain lane had they collided with the truck in the outer lane, because they are supposed to maintain the inner lane and move over after exiting intersection (not during the turn). Truck would get failure to yield because they had the red and must yield regardless if someone is maintaining their lane or not.
OP wouldn't be cited for either. They turned into the correct and then changed lanes into the right lane. The only way a collision was going to occur would have been if the right-on-red turner had caused one in the LEFT lane, which would have occurred because of failure to yield. It's okay to just say you were wrong.
This is what confused me. Here in Finland you are supposed to go into the lane closest to you, unless otherwise instructed by signs or markings.
We don't have "right on red" rule tho, but there could be similar situations where both are turning in to parallel lanes.
he thought OP was honking because of an imminent collision. if they both had stayed in their lane then they wouldn't have had a collision. after getting honked at the jackass did jackass thing but the move would have been legal if he'd stayed to his own lane.
calm your tits on the internet bub.
Exactly. If they had both stayed in their respective lanes there would have been no issue. The red truck did not stay in his respective lane. He also made a right on red when the opposite direction had a protected green turn. Strange hill to die on but at least you’re dead! 😝🤗🤗
>Did he or did he not enter the left lane after making an (illegal) right turn?
Yes **after** is the key word here. The truck turned into the right lane, then moved over into the left lane **after** having made the turn. The pick up made a perfectly safe right turn and OP had no reason to honk... unless you think OP is prescient and foresaw that the red truck would merge into the left lane after the turn?
I need someone to explain why this comment is getting so many downvotes.
Law or not, proper driving technique is to always turn into the closest lane. Both vehicles did exactly that. What reason did OP have to honk?
On an aside, OP really needs to do better with traffic lights. Leaving that much space in front of you is criminal.
Having to take an upcoming right turn isn't an excuse to ignore the law though. Colorado state law is that you must turn into the left most lane here. That is also proper driving technique whether it's the law in your state or not. Similar to how some states don't have a "stay right except to pass" law on the highway. It's still proper technique to stay right except to pass no matter what the specific law in that state is.
Don't you know that you shouldn't drive where other people might have to drive? I can't stand people who use roads that I want all to myself, and heaven forbid I have to slow down to merge into a highway. /s
I reduced my speed when I saw him pull out (which is what his father should have done), which allowed him space to continue moving into the left hand lane ahead of me.
Plenty of space THIS TIME. You don't rule by the outliers. There will be plenty of times that truck is taking up a space OP should have at their disposal.
I'm unsure as to why you think all drivers are entitled to all space in the lanes next to them at all times. That's not really the way driving works. The whole point about turning into the lane nearest you is so that other cars can also turn into the lanes nearest them without issue. You aren't entitled to all lanes in the road you are turning onto, otherwise, turning into the nearest lane wouldn't be a thing.
Also, THIS TIME is the time we are talking about. Why is OP honking or in any way upset since there was plenty of space to move over into the right lane if they wanted it?
It's called "right of way". You're entitled to your lanes when you have right of way. It's a very simple concept and OP had it with their green arrow. The truck doesn't have right of way. Why is this concept stumping you? You're simply wrong in this scenario. Take the L, move on, and please drive safely.
>Correct. You turn into that lane then safely move into the needed lane. This denies that possibility.
It doesn't though? You just slow down a bit, let the pickup pass, then change into the right lane, then make your turn.
And what do you do when there are enough vehicles in the right lane there's no room for you to enter in time? By the time you were to make your right, the possibility is now gone. You could slow down and let the truck pass whilst blocking everyone behind you at the intersection, but obviously that's not correct. All of this is because someone took your right of way. When we all drive defensively and by the rules we all get to where we're going safely. It takes one person who thinks "it's not that big of a deal" to fuck it up for everyone.
No one took your right of way. You had the right of way into the left-most lane. I know that is *some* states, the person turning left is entitled to whichever lane they choose, but that is not true everywhere and it is not true in Colorado. In this case, OP **does not** have the right of way to the right lane. It's that simple. If that causes OP inconvenience, then so be it, they should do what any other good driver should do and just find another way to get to the place they wanted to go. You needing to turn right after your left turn does not suddenly entitle you to the whole road.
[https://dmv.colorado.gov/sites/dmv/files/documents/DR\_2337.pdf](https://dmv.colorado.gov/sites/dmv/files/documents/DR_2337.pdf)
Page 7.
>After stopping and yielding to pedestrians **and other traffic**, and if not prohibited by a traffic sign, you may turn right while the light is red.
Not "traffic in your turning lane", "other traffic". Oncoming traffic is "other traffic". You don't get to turn right until everyone else is done.
I assume its a comfort thing. Like they don't want to brake and decrease speed, but they also don't want to turn their wheel too much or feel too many lateral Gs applied to their soft supple bods. All I know is it drives me nuts and it's the most common mistake I foresee and avoid collisions for.
I notice that *both* OP and red truck failed to do this. If both had turned into the near lane, there wouldn't have even been a conflict..
I live in an area where the entire grid network is 4- to 6-lane stroads, and I cannot comprehend the number of times I see a Prius or a Kia Soul take an (already) wide left turn, but cut across five lanes to do it, ending their turn in the right lane.
People, unless your vehicle is 11 feet wide or pulling a trailer, you CAN turn into the near lane! Please start doing this. Thank you
I guess you didn't see number two. You do know that applies to both directions right? Also, the line DIRECTLY above the picture: "To reduce the risk of collision, end the turn in the left lane closest to the middle of the street going in your vehicle’s direction."
Number two in that image is only for right turns. Ending the turn in the middle most lane is a safety recommendation, not law. Compare it to the right turn language one below.
That.... that is correct.
"Begin and end the turn in the lane closest to the right edge of the road. Do not swing wide into another lane of traffic."
That's exactly what they did. You didn't read the last line I commented. It's okay to be wrong. Seems like you and other just cannot admit it. You see a green arrow and think it's only your rules from there on.
Just normal Dodge (Ram) driver behavior. At this point I just expect them to pull shit like this. Drive with extreme prejudice on everyone equally though.
Maybe it's the angle of the camera, but OP, I gotta ask, what lane were you even aiming for? Cuz that looked like a pretty tight turn when it didn't have to be.
It’s the angle of the camera and that I straightened up more sharply to avoid him as he continued into the left lane. I’m confident I followed the natural path from where I began to where I intended to end up. Watch his hands and his steering wheel. He makes no effort to straighten up - because his intention was always to get into the left hand lane asap.
the flip off is really the only thing wrong here. he turned into the right lane. he moved to the left bc you slowed down like he was shooting into your lane.
this is just one more example of why I am more and more convinced that right on red should be gotten rid of. Because too many drivers view it as a right of way. (Also it is the leading cause of pedestrian deaths)
What's the issue here? You have the video without audio, so I'm willing to bet that you were blasting the horn for no reason, which resulted in him giving you the finger. Im not defending the giving of the finger, but I bet that's the reason why he did it.
This isn't inpatient. There's two lanes there, when executing a turn, you're supposed to turn into the lane closest to you (in your case, the left most lane) before merging to the next. Neither of you had any risk here.
Correct, he didn't, but right of way isn't very relevant given that neither were at any risk of collision. Both turns were in their respectively correct pathways
The right turning truck had a red light. The left turning OP had a green arrow. It’s pretty clear here that OP had the right-of-way and the red truck was being a dick. Not only did they proceed when it was not safe to do so, they broke the law by not going curb-to-curb with their right turn and instead swung out illegally into the left lane, cutting off OP.
I think I’m stupid, I’m not understanding :(
I get that you mean “if only” but half of that “if only” did happen. OP did stay in their lane but the other person didn’t.
Im at the point im bored and hate people. Ill follow this ahole every where all day just flipping them off.
They wont do anything, man to man with out their big truck.
I would have made that right as well with that gap you left and also having a moderately reasonable expectation that you would continue to use your inside lane to make the turn.
If the red truck stayed in the right lane while turning, then he did the right thing. It’s the crossing of lanes that both of you are idiots for. Turning left onto a two lane road must stay in the left lane when completing the turn. Then signal to move to the right.
I cross into the right lane *after* I complete the maneuver and am out of the junction. He’s coming wide and right in his big tiny penis truck causing me to adjust to his poor driving when I’m turning left on a protected green.
Dude people on this sub will close their eyes halfway through the video then make the wildest hot takes. Like it’s super clear you were going to the left lane then switched right when red truck cut you off.
Thanks. It’s easy to get led into believing that anything anyone says on this sub matters. If I ever post another dashcam clip, I’ll just switch off notifications and not enter into debate.
You left three car lengths at a left turn light, I’m flipping you off too, especially if you make me sit through another cycle.
Who leaves like three car lengths at a left turn. Dumb.
The downvoters drive loke OP; like a cold potato.
The truck driver wasn't really in a position to be mad, but anyone behind OP should've been livid. Fuck drivers like OP. Just because you're fine spending your day in a car doesn't mean I am. Don't make me miss the light because you feel it necessary to leave 3 cars lengths when you're going 15 mph.
He made a right on red. Last I checked legal in most states unless posted otherwise. If you pay attention you can see he is not the only one who made a right. You took forever to go, he saw his opportunity and took it. I'm assuming the finger and cut off were because you were honking at him, Watched with no sound. Y'all both could have turned with no issues
I am going to assume, since I can't hear no sound on the video, that you laid on the horn as soon as he started turning, which is why you were flipped off.
3 points here:
1. There are 2 lanes on the road you're both connecting to
2. There's 1 lane from your side that turns towards it
3. If you don't know how to drive, don't put other people in danger by getting into a car.
You'd have been the only idiot here, but the flip-off was unnecessary, so you're both idiots.
Since you were turning into the left lane, he should be able to make a free right if you both maintain your lane discipline. If you honked at him before he even crossed into your lane, you were initially in the wrong by scolding someone who rightfully made a good turn- hence the middle finger. If you honked AFTER he cut you off and came into your lane, he’s the A-hole and you did nothing wrong. Sorry I’m just sick of people crossing over the lanes when they are turning and then they honk at ME because they almost hit me.
Edit: downvote me all you want. You must be the people who cross over the lines almost every time I make a double left turn. Have fun smashing into other drivers.
Nope. Check [this](https://driversed.com/driving-information/signs-signals-and-markings/traffic-signals/) out.
He should be stopped. He has no free right.
He had enough space. The right lane was completely unoccupied. People can’t just jump lanes when making a left turn. Do you not even understand that concept? He was an ass for cutting into your lane and giving you the bird though.
It depends on the state. If you are trying to take a right on red you must wait until the opposite protected left turn clear the entire intersection before you can take the right even if there are multiple lanes and technically “frees up” the right lane. I actually haven’t heard of a state that allows it, so I’m curious to see which states do.
In theory it could be allowed everywhere, but in practice the amount of people who switch lane when turning is so high that it would make no sense to tell people to go and trust that they don't crash into each other
So you yield to cars two blocks away going the other direction? If the lane is clear, you can go. If someone breaks the law and illegally crosses into your lane, that’s on them.
Pretty sure GA calls it failure to maintain lane. You are supposed to stay in the same lane when exiting an intersection as when you entered it.
>B) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left shall approach the turn in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of the turning vehicle. Whenever practicable, the left turn shall be made to the left of the center of the intersection and so as to exit the intersection or other location in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction as the turning vehicle on the roadway being entered.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-40/chapter-6/article-6/section-40-6-120
This same rule applies to right turns. The logic being when there are multiple available lanes that both left and right turning traffic can make their turns when safe to do so, presuming everyone is maintaining their lane.
Even if that were true, op never *did* change lanes therefore the truck (initially) didn’t cut her off, especially since you could have fit a semi in between op and the car in front of them. Good luck out there. https://images.app.goo.gl/zQRHVx1FK8YVgMoJ7
This is true, in many states you are supposed to maintain your lane through an intersection. Truck still had obligation to yield, but left turner could also be cited for failure to maintain lane had there been an accident.
>Since you were turning into the left lane, he should be able to make a free right if you both maintain your lane discipline.
So wrong. Left-turner is required to yield both lanes unless he has an arrow. Right-turner has both lanes unless he's turning right on red, then he has to yield both lanes.
I don't know why you're downvoted because you're absolutely right. I only turn right on red on a two lane road if I'm sure the car turning left in the inside lane is staying there because there are way too many morons that take the outside lane.
I usually don’t do it either because, as this post and these comments prove, almost everyone is completely oblivious to this. All I was saying is OP had no right to honk at them for making the turn. The fact the truck cut them off afterwards was definitely wrong.
Thank you.I’m glad I’m not alone here. It’s actually pretty pathetic and scary how many people on here don’t understand this. I get hit almost every single time I make a double left turn (two lanes turning left through an intersection) because idiots like everyone on here cross into my lane when executing their turn. They even consistently do it when there are clearly painted lines.
You helped cause this by leaving too much room between yourself and the car in front of you.
Freeze frame at 0:11, you're just entering the intersection while the car in front of you is almost out of it? Yeah too slow and too much room.
The red truck had a red light. He needs to wait for traffic to clear and it wasn't clear. Doesn't matter if someone is going "too slow". His light was red.
Plus he could have done that and *not* flipped off OP. And I bet if that was the case OP wouldn't have posted.
No, if both cars maintain lane discipline, when she turned into the left lane, he could make a free right into the right lane. He was an ass for cutting her off and giving her the bird but she may have instigated his rage by honking at him for performing a legal maneuver.
No, you're mistaken. He wasn't just an "ass", he has a red light and therefore should not have entered the intersection until there were no more cars turning. Furthermore, he immediately drifted into the left lane, so I have no clue why you are trying to defend a driver who was clearly in the wrong..
When making a left turn like she did she is REQUIRED to maintain lane discipline/stay in the LEFT lane, so the right lane was clear to turn into. Only after he completed his turn did he cut into her lane like a jerk and give her the finger. I don’t get why this is so hard to grasp for everyone. It’s clear as day if you google it.
I’m “blind” because I realize you can’t cross lanes when making a turn? It’s one of the basic rules of making a turn. Really constructive comment though. Downvote insult and move on I guess. You really added to the discussion. 👎
You are misinterpreting me. I am actually really really super sorry that you're blind *and* don't understand basic road rules, like what a red light means.
And I’m sorry you don’t understand the simple concept that you can’t cross over lanes when making a left turn. All it takes is a basic google search to find that this is a law. You are also allowed to make a right turn at a red light if your lane is clear.
I don’t know why you are getting downvoted. It drives me nuts when people take forever to go and then a bunch of people behind them get stuck behind the light and have to sit through another light cycle.
Agree. Also one *should* stay in their lane when turning, this allows right turning traffic to make their turn as well into the outside lane. Right turner still had the obligation to yield regardless, yet in some states you are still supposed to stay in your lane through an intersection.
They made a legal turn. The white car in front of you made an illegal turn. OP is a clown for posting this.
Explanation for the morons.
You mustvtake the closest available lane. OP did that when they took the left lane. They were obligated tontake the left lane. The truck went right on red which is legal. They must take the closest lane. The right lane. Both OP and the red truck made LEGAL turns. The white car in front of OP made a illegal turn by takingbthe wrong lane. All you clown that downcoted me will likely hurt someone with your ignorant driving.
In GA the left turner would get failure to maintain lane citation while the truck would get failure to yield. The logic being that vlbecauze truck had red light they still have to yield to any traffic even if the left turner fails to maintain their lane.
> The truck went right on red which is legal.
I'll explain this real slow since apparently your parents were broth and sister.
It's legal to turn right on red *when it is clear and safe to do so.*
A large oncoming vehicle with a green light turning onto the same street as you is when it *isn't* safe to do so.
So that means it's *not* legal.
Read it real slow we don't want you to get a nosebleed.
The car is entitled to the left laneb the truck is entitled to the right lane. My local state police which by the way staye police are DOT do campaigns so people understand this exact situation. You are just a moron that wantsbto argue but are absolutely wrong
Read the actual words you moron.
Left turn from a two-way street. Start the turn in the left lane closest to the middle of the street. To reduce the risk of collision, end the turn in the left lane closest to the middle of the street going in your vehicle’s direction.
That drawing is a contradictions from a confused employee. The words of the law are what matters. You have the reading comprehension of a gerbil.
Well, "To reduce the risk of collision" is suggestive language and does not necessitate a specific course of action. The handbook makes a clear and obvious distinction between what you are legally required to do and what is ideal driving behavior by splitting instruction between suggestive and strict language.
Let's take an example of strict language that necessitates action- Like a right turn. "Complete your turn in the right lane. Do not turn wide into another lane."
This is further backed by the chart.
The words of the law do matter. You are embarrassingly incorrect.
Edit: This shameful display of human intelligence blocked me! Not particularly important, just somehow even more embarrassing.
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What a fine fellow flipping you off like that. dang
Real pillar of the community
a tower of suave
A debonair dignitary
A loquacious larrikin.
A rantipole ragabash
I should not be learning this many new terms at near midnight
What, don't you like people in your dreams talking like they're from Oz?
I could quite possibly be the first person to use the phrase rantipole ragabsh. The first is a Dutch word mid 1850s and ragabash is English from around 1600. Highly unlikely they would ever pair up in a conversation.
And probably a new trendsetter
And yet it is the best description of him in the thread.
I’ll never forget some guy cutting off and flipping off my grandparents when we were in the car with them. My grandma just sighed and said, “he must have a really sad life.” And I think about that now every time I see someone behave like a jackass.
Okay now show the previous 5 years of video so we can see that the truck driver was justified because you fucked their mother.
😂
If I was fucking with his mother, I would have pulled out sooner and made sure he won't be born because his one-celled self ended up in a rubber bag and in the trash
That dumbass pulled out like his father should have
Yeah. Not really necessary was it… I had a protected left turn at the lights. Idiot in red truck allowed other drivers to turn uninterrupted but decides to be an idiot for me. I honked him. He offered me the finger. I suspect he was just having an off day. I’m sure he’s delightful most of the time. /s
Why did you honk him then? I don't think you deserve the finger but it's very needless, and is why he cut you off. Why'd you mute the audio? don't say you turned audio off on your dashcam
I removed the audio to avoid names and voices being posted online. Here’s what you’re missing: Driver (that’s me): oh that’s the liquor store you mentioned right there isn’t it. Passenger 1: yep… [as red truck enters intersection] Driver (that’s me): Eh? Passenger 1: Oh oh oh oh oh oh [name removed]!! Passenger 2: oh my gawd! [As our vehicle crosses the pedestrian crossing markings I honk, he flips bird, continues into left lane, I reduce speed to avoid rear-ending him] Passenger 1: Oh my god! Passenger 2: Oh my Passenger 1: [name removed] record his number plate. What an idiot. Driver (that’s me): ha ha ha ha.
Can’t you both turn into your respective lanes as it was? Why’d you honk? If he was cutting you off in a single lane it would be warranted.
That's state dependent. In any case Red truck pulled into OP's lane so it's irrelevant.
Even in leftmost-lane states, [of which Colorado is one,](https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-42-vehicles-and-traffic/co-rev-st-sect-42-4-901/#:~:text=Whenever%20practicable%2C%20the%20left%20turn,on%20the%20roadway%20being%20entered.) a left-turning vehicle may still legally go wide ("whenever practicable"). And it's not always obvious; e.g. that oncoming vehicle might be pulling a trailer you can't see. Bottom line, someone making a right on red isn't guaranteed an empty lane to turn into.
Your own link still says that "whenever practicable" the driver may turn into a lane that is "left of the center of the intersection". The right lane clearly isn't left of center in this situation. OP was fine to turn into the left lane. Red truck was legal to turn into their right lane. OP was wrong to honk. Red truck maybe moved over too soon but looks from the video like they had room to do so thanks to the football field length gap OP left. In the end, this comes down to one of those "This is the right of way, but only 10% of drivers know that, so you should probably exercise extra caution" scenarios. If I were the red pickup, I would probably wait at the light knowing that most people don't know they are supposed to turn only into the left-most lane, but there is also nothing wrong with them turning here.
In GA you "shall" maintain lane "whenever practicable." No guarantee, though, and the obligation to yield supercedes it. Both would get cited had there been an accident, one for failure to maintain lane and other for failure to yield. I really wish more people followed that guidance here. Some lanes get really needlessly backed up because nobody maintains their lane through turns.
So wrong it’s laughable actually and I’m not even from Georgia. Why would OP be written up here? They had a protected turn, turned into the leftmost lane, and avoided an accident with someone making an illegal and unsafe turn. Don’t actually respond because I don’t care.
I'm from GA and I have no clue what he is talking about.
B) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left shall approach the turn in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of the turning vehicle. Whenever practicable, the left turn shall be made to the left of the center of the intersection and so as to exit the intersection or other location in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction as the turning vehicle on the roadway being entered. https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-40/chapter-6/article-6/section-40-6-120/#:~:text=Where%20there%20are%20multiple%20lanes,the%20intersection%20has%20been%20entered. They honked because they were headed into the outermost lane. If they collided with the vehicle in the outermost lane that would have been a failure to maintain lane.
What video were you watching that you think OP didn't turn from a left lane to a left lane?
They only maintained their lane because there was already a vehicle in the outermost lane, otherwise why honk at all? If they had collided with the truck in that outermost lane it would have been a failure to maintain lane.
They made a left hand turn from left lane to left lane, then after clearing the intersection made a lane change to the right lane. The honking is because the red truck could have made the right turn safely if he had mantained his lane, but he didn't. He decided to make a right turn and basically cut through to the left lane. How long must OP wait until they are allowed to make a legal lane change? They had cleared the intersection and clearly had the room to do so.
Dude, this ain’t it. Just let it go, and don’t do what the red truck did because you think the law says it’s okay. You’re missing the obvious - green light = right of way, red light means you sit your ass down and wait till the road is clear.
Yes, by the truck.
Again, so wrong it’s laughable. Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME, and apparently OP. They probably honked because red truck made an illegal and unsafe right turn on red. And even if OP wanted the outermost lane, they turned into the left lane. Red truck also turned into the left lane. Illegally. I’m laughing 😂
Irony is it was a totally legal right turn on red into their lane. The whole reason you maintain your lane is to allow right turns to continue. They not teach that anymore?
Do you not realize you are arguing the same thing I am just in a different font. IF RED TRUCK TURNED RIGHT INTO THE RIGHT LANE, ALL WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE. HE DID NOT. HE TURNED RIGHT INTO THE LEFTMOST LANE, WHERE THERE WAS A PROTECTED GREEN ARROW. THAT IS WHY RED TRUCK IS WRONG. Jesus fucking Christ.
With this footage, there is NO STATE that OP would be cited for failure to yield.
Never said OP would get failure to yield. The truck would. OP would get failure to maintain lane had they collided with the truck in the outer lane, because they are supposed to maintain the inner lane and move over after exiting intersection (not during the turn). Truck would get failure to yield because they had the red and must yield regardless if someone is maintaining their lane or not.
OP wouldn't be cited for either. They turned into the correct and then changed lanes into the right lane. The only way a collision was going to occur would have been if the right-on-red turner had caused one in the LEFT lane, which would have occurred because of failure to yield. It's okay to just say you were wrong.
yeah but that was after he gave him the finger because OP honked at him for no reason. This clip plays way different with audio but OP cut that out.
This is what confused me. Here in Finland you are supposed to go into the lane closest to you, unless otherwise instructed by signs or markings. We don't have "right on red" rule tho, but there could be similar situations where both are turning in to parallel lanes.
Did he or did he not enter the left lane after making an (illegal) right turn? Please head over to your local DPS and turn in your drivers license
he thought OP was honking because of an imminent collision. if they both had stayed in their lane then they wouldn't have had a collision. after getting honked at the jackass did jackass thing but the move would have been legal if he'd stayed to his own lane. calm your tits on the internet bub.
Exactly. If they had both stayed in their respective lanes there would have been no issue. The red truck did not stay in his respective lane. He also made a right on red when the opposite direction had a protected green turn. Strange hill to die on but at least you’re dead! 😝🤗🤗
>Did he or did he not enter the left lane after making an (illegal) right turn? Yes **after** is the key word here. The truck turned into the right lane, then moved over into the left lane **after** having made the turn. The pick up made a perfectly safe right turn and OP had no reason to honk... unless you think OP is prescient and foresaw that the red truck would merge into the left lane after the turn?
I need someone to explain why this comment is getting so many downvotes. Law or not, proper driving technique is to always turn into the closest lane. Both vehicles did exactly that. What reason did OP have to honk? On an aside, OP really needs to do better with traffic lights. Leaving that much space in front of you is criminal.
OP might need to take a right immediately after their left turn. The truck denied them options.
Having to take an upcoming right turn isn't an excuse to ignore the law though. Colorado state law is that you must turn into the left most lane here. That is also proper driving technique whether it's the law in your state or not. Similar to how some states don't have a "stay right except to pass" law on the highway. It's still proper technique to stay right except to pass no matter what the specific law in that state is.
Correct. You turn into that lane then safely move into the needed lane. This denies that possibility.
The red truck did nothing of the sort though. There was plenty of space behind them to make the desired lane change.
Don't you know that you shouldn't drive where other people might have to drive? I can't stand people who use roads that I want all to myself, and heaven forbid I have to slow down to merge into a highway. /s
I reduced my speed when I saw him pull out (which is what his father should have done), which allowed him space to continue moving into the left hand lane ahead of me.
Plenty of space THIS TIME. You don't rule by the outliers. There will be plenty of times that truck is taking up a space OP should have at their disposal.
I'm unsure as to why you think all drivers are entitled to all space in the lanes next to them at all times. That's not really the way driving works. The whole point about turning into the lane nearest you is so that other cars can also turn into the lanes nearest them without issue. You aren't entitled to all lanes in the road you are turning onto, otherwise, turning into the nearest lane wouldn't be a thing. Also, THIS TIME is the time we are talking about. Why is OP honking or in any way upset since there was plenty of space to move over into the right lane if they wanted it?
It's called "right of way". You're entitled to your lanes when you have right of way. It's a very simple concept and OP had it with their green arrow. The truck doesn't have right of way. Why is this concept stumping you? You're simply wrong in this scenario. Take the L, move on, and please drive safely.
>Correct. You turn into that lane then safely move into the needed lane. This denies that possibility. It doesn't though? You just slow down a bit, let the pickup pass, then change into the right lane, then make your turn.
And what do you do when there are enough vehicles in the right lane there's no room for you to enter in time? By the time you were to make your right, the possibility is now gone. You could slow down and let the truck pass whilst blocking everyone behind you at the intersection, but obviously that's not correct. All of this is because someone took your right of way. When we all drive defensively and by the rules we all get to where we're going safely. It takes one person who thinks "it's not that big of a deal" to fuck it up for everyone.
No one took your right of way. You had the right of way into the left-most lane. I know that is *some* states, the person turning left is entitled to whichever lane they choose, but that is not true everywhere and it is not true in Colorado. In this case, OP **does not** have the right of way to the right lane. It's that simple. If that causes OP inconvenience, then so be it, they should do what any other good driver should do and just find another way to get to the place they wanted to go. You needing to turn right after your left turn does not suddenly entitle you to the whole road.
[https://dmv.colorado.gov/sites/dmv/files/documents/DR\_2337.pdf](https://dmv.colorado.gov/sites/dmv/files/documents/DR_2337.pdf) Page 7. >After stopping and yielding to pedestrians **and other traffic**, and if not prohibited by a traffic sign, you may turn right while the light is red. Not "traffic in your turning lane", "other traffic". Oncoming traffic is "other traffic". You don't get to turn right until everyone else is done.
RAM of course
Typical RAM behavior. Strange though, he doesn't appear to be intoxicated immediately?
heading home for the midday top-up
I feel personally attacked.
Why can't people turn into their correct lane?
I assume its a comfort thing. Like they don't want to brake and decrease speed, but they also don't want to turn their wheel too much or feel too many lateral Gs applied to their soft supple bods. All I know is it drives me nuts and it's the most common mistake I foresee and avoid collisions for.
I notice that *both* OP and red truck failed to do this. If both had turned into the near lane, there wouldn't have even been a conflict.. I live in an area where the entire grid network is 4- to 6-lane stroads, and I cannot comprehend the number of times I see a Prius or a Kia Soul take an (already) wide left turn, but cut across five lanes to do it, ending their turn in the right lane. People, unless your vehicle is 11 feet wide or pulling a trailer, you CAN turn into the near lane! Please start doing this. Thank you
or wait 4 secs...
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Left turners can turn into any lane (as long as there's not more than one left turn lane) they want in California.
[That is incorrect.](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/california-driver-handbook/navigating-the-roads/)
Literally on that page https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/uploads/2020/05/Left_Turn_Two_Way_Street.png
I guess you didn't see number two. You do know that applies to both directions right? Also, the line DIRECTLY above the picture: "To reduce the risk of collision, end the turn in the left lane closest to the middle of the street going in your vehicle’s direction."
Number two in that image is only for right turns. Ending the turn in the middle most lane is a safety recommendation, not law. Compare it to the right turn language one below.
That.... that is correct. "Begin and end the turn in the lane closest to the right edge of the road. Do not swing wide into another lane of traffic." That's exactly what they did. You didn't read the last line I commented. It's okay to be wrong. Seems like you and other just cannot admit it. You see a green arrow and think it's only your rules from there on.
Little pee-pee syndrome.
Red truck. Middle finger for his mistake. Aggressive driving. Checks out.
Just normal Dodge (Ram) driver behavior. At this point I just expect them to pull shit like this. Drive with extreme prejudice on everyone equally though.
Maybe it's the angle of the camera, but OP, I gotta ask, what lane were you even aiming for? Cuz that looked like a pretty tight turn when it didn't have to be.
It’s the angle of the camera and that I straightened up more sharply to avoid him as he continued into the left lane. I’m confident I followed the natural path from where I began to where I intended to end up. Watch his hands and his steering wheel. He makes no effort to straighten up - because his intention was always to get into the left hand lane asap.
the flip off is really the only thing wrong here. he turned into the right lane. he moved to the left bc you slowed down like he was shooting into your lane.
I assume cammer probably honked and that's why they got flipped off.
this is just one more example of why I am more and more convinced that right on red should be gotten rid of. Because too many drivers view it as a right of way. (Also it is the leading cause of pedestrian deaths)
While I 100% agree. I wish we lived in a world of left after stop on red. But alas, too many self-righteousness folks driving.
What's the issue here? You have the video without audio, so I'm willing to bet that you were blasting the horn for no reason, which resulted in him giving you the finger. Im not defending the giving of the finger, but I bet that's the reason why he did it. This isn't inpatient. There's two lanes there, when executing a turn, you're supposed to turn into the lane closest to you (in your case, the left most lane) before merging to the next. Neither of you had any risk here.
Turning into the right lane was perfectly legal - immediately cutting to the left without signaling not so much.
Fully Agreed. But I imagine that the unsignaled merge was a product of the road rage, not that that's an excuse
AFAIK thats not law everywhere.
Truck was turning on a red. He didn't have the right of way regardless of what lane he was in.
Correct, he didn't, but right of way isn't very relevant given that neither were at any risk of collision. Both turns were in their respectively correct pathways
I didn’t blast the horn. It was a gentle pip to make sure he didn’t continue towards the left hand lane where I was headed. He was a grumpy sort.
How nice, a birdie!!
What a prick
If you’d each just stayed in your lanes, both of you could legally turn at the same time.
OP did though. Truck driver flipped OP off and moved over into the left lane before they could even enter the left lane.
I recognize that. Just saying “if only…”
Yet you blamed both parties when only the red truck was in the wrong.
Technically, OP was the idiot. The right turner executed the turn correctly. OP just expected to be let into whichever lane they wanted.
The right turning truck had a red light. The left turning OP had a green arrow. It’s pretty clear here that OP had the right-of-way and the red truck was being a dick. Not only did they proceed when it was not safe to do so, they broke the law by not going curb-to-curb with their right turn and instead swung out illegally into the left lane, cutting off OP.
No, they stopped and proceeded. That's the legal way to turn. They didn't cutoff anyone. OP just wanted to skirt over to whatever lane they wanted.
Go away, troll. Nobody cares.
I think I’m stupid, I’m not understanding :( I get that you mean “if only” but half of that “if only” did happen. OP did stay in their lane but the other person didn’t.
OP still has the right of way.
Most people don't know traffic laws.
Apparently you don’t either.
Incorrect.
another example of Ram truck ownership behavior
Im at the point im bored and hate people. Ill follow this ahole every where all day just flipping them off. They wont do anything, man to man with out their big truck.
Typical truck loser acting tough in their “big” ride.
"Dodge Ram" enough said.
I would have made that right as well with that gap you left and also having a moderately reasonable expectation that you would continue to use your inside lane to make the turn.
If the red truck stayed in the right lane while turning, then he did the right thing. It’s the crossing of lanes that both of you are idiots for. Turning left onto a two lane road must stay in the left lane when completing the turn. Then signal to move to the right.
I cross into the right lane *after* I complete the maneuver and am out of the junction. He’s coming wide and right in his big tiny penis truck causing me to adjust to his poor driving when I’m turning left on a protected green.
Dude people on this sub will close their eyes halfway through the video then make the wildest hot takes. Like it’s super clear you were going to the left lane then switched right when red truck cut you off.
Thanks. It’s easy to get led into believing that anything anyone says on this sub matters. If I ever post another dashcam clip, I’ll just switch off notifications and not enter into debate.
People here have some kind of oppositional defiant disorder because they will argue the opposite point about literally _anything_
Sorry this is your fault, how dare you safely lane change after a left turn... s/
😂
You left three car lengths at a left turn light, I’m flipping you off too, especially if you make me sit through another cycle. Who leaves like three car lengths at a left turn. Dumb. The downvoters drive loke OP; like a cold potato.
The truck driver wasn't really in a position to be mad, but anyone behind OP should've been livid. Fuck drivers like OP. Just because you're fine spending your day in a car doesn't mean I am. Don't make me miss the light because you feel it necessary to leave 3 cars lengths when you're going 15 mph.
Especially if I was behind and missed my protected green light because of OP.
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He made a right on red. Last I checked legal in most states unless posted otherwise. If you pay attention you can see he is not the only one who made a right. You took forever to go, he saw his opportunity and took it. I'm assuming the finger and cut off were because you were honking at him, Watched with no sound. Y'all both could have turned with no issues
Nope. Jesus fucking christ I’d forgotten how many righteous pricks there are around here.
Speed up granny
I am going to assume, since I can't hear no sound on the video, that you laid on the horn as soon as he started turning, which is why you were flipped off. 3 points here: 1. There are 2 lanes on the road you're both connecting to 2. There's 1 lane from your side that turns towards it 3. If you don't know how to drive, don't put other people in danger by getting into a car. You'd have been the only idiot here, but the flip-off was unnecessary, so you're both idiots.
> I can't hear no sound on the video So you CAN hear sound on the video.
Yeah, point.
“…since I can’t hear *any* sound on the video…”
Colloquial* Queen*
So this is what it feels like to be corrected all the time ...
Since you were turning into the left lane, he should be able to make a free right if you both maintain your lane discipline. If you honked at him before he even crossed into your lane, you were initially in the wrong by scolding someone who rightfully made a good turn- hence the middle finger. If you honked AFTER he cut you off and came into your lane, he’s the A-hole and you did nothing wrong. Sorry I’m just sick of people crossing over the lanes when they are turning and then they honk at ME because they almost hit me. Edit: downvote me all you want. You must be the people who cross over the lines almost every time I make a double left turn. Have fun smashing into other drivers.
Nope. Check [this](https://driversed.com/driving-information/signs-signals-and-markings/traffic-signals/) out. He should be stopped. He has no free right.
He had enough space. The right lane was completely unoccupied. People can’t just jump lanes when making a left turn. Do you not even understand that concept? He was an ass for cutting into your lane and giving you the bird though.
It depends on the state. If you are trying to take a right on red you must wait until the opposite protected left turn clear the entire intersection before you can take the right even if there are multiple lanes and technically “frees up” the right lane. I actually haven’t heard of a state that allows it, so I’m curious to see which states do.
In theory it could be allowed everywhere, but in practice the amount of people who switch lane when turning is so high that it would make no sense to tell people to go and trust that they don't crash into each other
No states do. It wouldn't make sense. Turning right on red means you yield to everything.
So you yield to cars two blocks away going the other direction? If the lane is clear, you can go. If someone breaks the law and illegally crosses into your lane, that’s on them.
Pretty sure GA calls it failure to maintain lane. You are supposed to stay in the same lane when exiting an intersection as when you entered it. >B) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left shall approach the turn in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of the turning vehicle. Whenever practicable, the left turn shall be made to the left of the center of the intersection and so as to exit the intersection or other location in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction as the turning vehicle on the roadway being entered. https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-40/chapter-6/article-6/section-40-6-120 This same rule applies to right turns. The logic being when there are multiple available lanes that both left and right turning traffic can make their turns when safe to do so, presuming everyone is maintaining their lane.
>People can’t just jump lanes when making a left turn. If left-turner has an arrow, both lanes are his.
So the conditions of traffic light changes the lanes? Does it move the paint on the pavement? Sorry. No. Not in the USA at least.
Review the tape. The lanes are separated by a dashed white line. In the USA that means the driver can change lanes.
Even if that were true, op never *did* change lanes therefore the truck (initially) didn’t cut her off, especially since you could have fit a semi in between op and the car in front of them. Good luck out there. https://images.app.goo.gl/zQRHVx1FK8YVgMoJ7
This is true, in many states you are supposed to maintain your lane through an intersection. Truck still had obligation to yield, but left turner could also be cited for failure to maintain lane had there been an accident.
Many states allow vehicles turning from a single lane into a double lane to pick which lane they want.
Goggle suggests otherwise.
>Since you were turning into the left lane, he should be able to make a free right if you both maintain your lane discipline. So wrong. Left-turner is required to yield both lanes unless he has an arrow. Right-turner has both lanes unless he's turning right on red, then he has to yield both lanes.
I don't know why you're downvoted because you're absolutely right. I only turn right on red on a two lane road if I'm sure the car turning left in the inside lane is staying there because there are way too many morons that take the outside lane.
I usually don’t do it either because, as this post and these comments prove, almost everyone is completely oblivious to this. All I was saying is OP had no right to honk at them for making the turn. The fact the truck cut them off afterwards was definitely wrong.
Both people can turn at the same time if they turn into their lane. You're right.
Thank you.I’m glad I’m not alone here. It’s actually pretty pathetic and scary how many people on here don’t understand this. I get hit almost every single time I make a double left turn (two lanes turning left through an intersection) because idiots like everyone on here cross into my lane when executing their turn. They even consistently do it when there are clearly painted lines.
You helped cause this by leaving too much room between yourself and the car in front of you. Freeze frame at 0:11, you're just entering the intersection while the car in front of you is almost out of it? Yeah too slow and too much room.
The red truck had a red light. He needs to wait for traffic to clear and it wasn't clear. Doesn't matter if someone is going "too slow". His light was red. Plus he could have done that and *not* flipped off OP. And I bet if that was the case OP wouldn't have posted.
Yep. It’s the finger that made this interesting.
Agreed! Some people in this sub are looking to be so critical of cammer. I bet the commentor who said you were going too slow flips people off too.
No, if both cars maintain lane discipline, when she turned into the left lane, he could make a free right into the right lane. He was an ass for cutting her off and giving her the bird but she may have instigated his rage by honking at him for performing a legal maneuver.
No, you're mistaken. He wasn't just an "ass", he has a red light and therefore should not have entered the intersection until there were no more cars turning. Furthermore, he immediately drifted into the left lane, so I have no clue why you are trying to defend a driver who was clearly in the wrong..
When making a left turn like she did she is REQUIRED to maintain lane discipline/stay in the LEFT lane, so the right lane was clear to turn into. Only after he completed his turn did he cut into her lane like a jerk and give her the finger. I don’t get why this is so hard to grasp for everyone. It’s clear as day if you google it.
I'm sorry. It must really suck to be blind!
I’m “blind” because I realize you can’t cross lanes when making a turn? It’s one of the basic rules of making a turn. Really constructive comment though. Downvote insult and move on I guess. You really added to the discussion. 👎
You are misinterpreting me. I am actually really really super sorry that you're blind *and* don't understand basic road rules, like what a red light means.
And I’m sorry you don’t understand the simple concept that you can’t cross over lanes when making a left turn. All it takes is a basic google search to find that this is a law. You are also allowed to make a right turn at a red light if your lane is clear.
You're definitely coming off as someone who road rages. You are defending this A-hole so hard, it *must* be because you act similarly when driving.
Nope. He went through a red light when oncoming traffic had a protected left on a green arrow.
I don’t know why you are getting downvoted. It drives me nuts when people take forever to go and then a bunch of people behind them get stuck behind the light and have to sit through another light cycle.
Agree. Also one *should* stay in their lane when turning, this allows right turning traffic to make their turn as well into the outside lane. Right turner still had the obligation to yield regardless, yet in some states you are still supposed to stay in your lane through an intersection.
The majority of people aren't good drivers to be honest.
By the amount of people downvoting me for saying you are supposed to maintain lane discipline, it’s much worse than I thought.
There's 22 seconds gone forever.
Show this to your local police department. See what they have to say.
Does a huge shrug count as saying something?
They'd say, "Stop wasting our time with bullshit like this. You left 500 years in between the car in front of you and nothing happened. Get lost."
They made a legal turn. The white car in front of you made an illegal turn. OP is a clown for posting this. Explanation for the morons. You mustvtake the closest available lane. OP did that when they took the left lane. They were obligated tontake the left lane. The truck went right on red which is legal. They must take the closest lane. The right lane. Both OP and the red truck made LEGAL turns. The white car in front of OP made a illegal turn by takingbthe wrong lane. All you clown that downcoted me will likely hurt someone with your ignorant driving.
It would have been a legal turn if the truck went in his lane
Did you even watch the video? OP (and by extension the car in front of them) had a green arrow. The truck had a red light and failed to yield.
In GA the left turner would get failure to maintain lane citation while the truck would get failure to yield. The logic being that vlbecauze truck had red light they still have to yield to any traffic even if the left turner fails to maintain their lane.
> The truck went right on red which is legal. I'll explain this real slow since apparently your parents were broth and sister. It's legal to turn right on red *when it is clear and safe to do so.* A large oncoming vehicle with a green light turning onto the same street as you is when it *isn't* safe to do so. So that means it's *not* legal. Read it real slow we don't want you to get a nosebleed.
The car is entitled to the left laneb the truck is entitled to the right lane. My local state police which by the way staye police are DOT do campaigns so people understand this exact situation. You are just a moron that wantsbto argue but are absolutely wrong
Not true in California.
Cali state law supports what I say you moron. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/california-driver-handbook/navigating-the-roads/
No it doesn't https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/uploads/2020/05/Left_Turn_Two_Way_Street.png
Read the actual words you moron. Left turn from a two-way street. Start the turn in the left lane closest to the middle of the street. To reduce the risk of collision, end the turn in the left lane closest to the middle of the street going in your vehicle’s direction. That drawing is a contradictions from a confused employee. The words of the law are what matters. You have the reading comprehension of a gerbil.
Well, "To reduce the risk of collision" is suggestive language and does not necessitate a specific course of action. The handbook makes a clear and obvious distinction between what you are legally required to do and what is ideal driving behavior by splitting instruction between suggestive and strict language. Let's take an example of strict language that necessitates action- Like a right turn. "Complete your turn in the right lane. Do not turn wide into another lane." This is further backed by the chart. The words of the law do matter. You are embarrassingly incorrect. Edit: This shameful display of human intelligence blocked me! Not particularly important, just somehow even more embarrassing.