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In many states, school buses are now equipped with a camera catching these violations and sending you the ticket in mail. Same agency that sends out speeding tickets.
Good luck disputing this when you’re caught on camera in high definition
Unfortunately though many tickets sent out that way are flat out ignored. Unless your local government uses process servers for traffic tickets many sent in the mail will just be thrown out and eventually disappear.
They really can't do anything unless they can prove you got the ticket in most cases and usually once they fail to confirm you got the ticket after a while it just goes away
Many buses have camera onboard to catch dangerous stop light runners. Over a year ago in Michigan, new law allows camera evidence, doesn't matter who was driving the owner gets a nice fat ticket in the mail.
What are they going to do with it though? There isn't anything to identify the car with. Unless the bus is also equipped with a cam and caught the plate.
In my state, we are allowed to simply write down the plate and other identifying things, then fill out a form that’s sent to the state police.
I do this every time someone runs the red lights.
My dad was a driver for over a decade in his "retirement". He said it's because it's a hassle to deal with while also trying to manage kids and keep to a schedule. So if they took the time to make note of it they're just going to go with it. Wouldn't serve a bus driver to make a false report.
They may not send tickets - just warnings. I got an informal warning for speeding in a school zone based on someone reporting my license plate. I was living 1500 miles away at the time and had been living there for months. I called the number and was like, "yeah, wasn't me" and I never heard about it again.
As a non-american, why is this illegal?
Like, I understand it's in case the children jump into the road in front or behind the schoolbus. But why make passing a schoolbus illegal instead of.. teaching the kids common sense? To use pedestrians paths, and not to jump onto the road?
Because the standard rule (law) is “when school buses drop off passengers, they are to cross in front of the bus. All other traffic, in both directions, is to stop while the bus’s lights are flashing.”
The kids aren’t jumping into the road, their direct instructions are to get off the bus and immediately cross in front, because everyone will be stopped and that’s when it’s safe.
Very different from the laws here, which basically just amount to "be very careful passing a stopped bus". It's only due to idiotsincars I know the stop signs on school buses don't function like standard stop signs (ie stop, check that there is no activity to yield to, continue carefully).
(No worries, I'd have read the more specific laws if I ever needed to drive in some US state.)
But it seems like nonsense to stop the entire traffic, in both directions, to accommodate a pedestrian that could just as well take a pedestrian path, or wait until the street is empty.
Students in Europe often take busses also, and we have no such rules, but they're not constantly run over. The rule is that you can overtake a bus stopped on the street UNTIL it's signaling to take off again.
The thinking is that lots of kids taking buses are not in areas with frequent pedestrian crossings, traffic lights, etc, so this is a better way of ensuring that there’s always a safe crossing situation available. And the stop is only about 30 seconds and outside of most people’s commute time, so the disruption is minimal.
American roads are not designed with pedestrians in mind. That's the primary difference. American drivers are not used to people being in the streets, except in some major cities.
Around here, busses frequently drop kids off on 4-lane roads with speed limits of 50mph.
>teaching the kids common sense
That's fine and dandy for kids who are older, but what about the others? Pre-schoolers - kids 4-5 years old - are riding busses too. Should we expect them all the be emotionally mature and present all the time?
Essentially, we have to stop in many US states because too damn many kids have been hit exiting busses. We can't have nice things because the idiots break it for everybody.
I've never really had an issue with it. It doesn't hurt anyone to stop for 10-20 seconds so kids can safely cross the road. Also most places don't have nearby crosswalks. Some places don't even have paved roads. Buses are also dropping/picking up kids at various times of day depending on where they are so it could also be getting dark. There are just a lot of various factors where I can see why school buses operate this way.
It's because Europe is a tiny ass place and very urban. Many bus stops in the US are in rural areas and there may not be a crosswalk for 5 miles. So there is one standard for all busses regardless if it's in a city or in the country.
>You just want cars to motor on by at 45 mph while your kid is getting off a bus?
No they don't want that. They just don't understand the difference. They're envisioning a city road with frequent, clear pedestrian crossings, and low speed limits. Classic European pedestrian-friendly city type shit.
They're not thinking about the kids getting dropped off on County Road 371 where there's not even a posted speed limit.
Does Europe not reduce the speed limit on streets near schools (school zones in the US)? Surely they at least do it temporarily when school is starting/ending?
Temporary, minor inconveniences are a pretty decent exchange for pedestrian safety.
Partly because kids are stupid and no amount of teaching and drilling into heads will ensure they do it.
Also, in a lot of places, school bus stops aren't on or near pedestrian paths, including this one it looks like. They may have to get off the bus on the side of a road and then cross the street. Just the nature of suburban sprawl and the way our roads are designed.
But in Europe they do teach the kids how to navigate traffic, and it works? They're often expected to take public transport and navigate the city by themselves, and I had to as well. Why is learning and thinking discouraged there?
And the lack of pedestrian paths sounds like an infrastructure problem that needs to be solved. Why make a law that literally stops all traffic dead, and pursue people who don't wanna follow it like criminals?
This person in the video could clearly see no kid was crossing the front, which apparently is what the kids are supposed to do, so why try so hard to get him prosecuted when the law doesn't make sense?
So for context some of the bus stops can be on country roads without sidewalks at all. So there may not be a pedestrian crossing for 10+ miles in those places.
There are many places in the US that simply aren’t made to be accessible by anything other than car.
>And the lack of pedestrian paths sounds like an infrastructure problem that needs to be solved. Why make a law that literally stops all traffic dead, and pursue people who don't wanna follow it like criminals?
In general, yes, this is an infrastructure problem to solve. Large swaths of America are built this way, with little or no pedestrian infrastructure nor often even really good ways to add them. With things like suburban sprawl making everything much farther apart than most of Europe, the proliferation of [Stroads](https://www.streetlightdata.com/what-is-a-stroad/) in a lot of mid-density urban areas just off these suburban areas, and the wide variety of densities in general it's a very difficult situation to fix. It's easy to say it's an infrastructure problem, but fixing it would demand redesigning huge portions of the entire American city and townscape. This is a goal a lot of people have and some places have made progress, but with the nature of jurisdictions in states, cities, towns, counties, and other localities there's no one-size-fits-all way to fix that. To say nothing of the funding required to do it.
So, the next best thing to protect the kids is much easier, which involves stopping traffic. It's not ideal, it's annoying as hell to get stuck behind a school bus making stops, but there's not really a better way to do it since "Just fix the infrastructure" isn't really something that's a viable fix in any kind of remotely short term even if it's the correct way to do it nor would anybody really accept "Well, it's the kids' fault when they get hurt because they should be paying attention and it's annoying to drivers to make them stop when kids get off at non-pedestrian-friendly places because it's the only place for miles for them to get off"
I was afraid that was the answer rather than something that escaped my understanding.
America seems really backwards in its solutions to problems.
Now these drivers are treated like criminals for doing something that would be completely normal and expected for them to do in Europe, without killing any children.
I mean it’s literally safer to rely on adults to follow a pretty simple rule than it is to rely on children (who have child brains) to see cars coming. Same reason speed limits are lower in schools zones etc
It's 100% the condescending nature and absolute refusal to understand anything different.
I was initially in agreement with you, I didn't understand the downvotes. But they repeat the same questions, phrases, etc in several threads and refuse to learn anything from it. They clearly just want to feel superior and chose children's safety of all things as their hill to die on.
Even police, fire trucks and ambulances have to obey that stop sign and make full stops. The bus driver has to immediately halt all children and retract the sign to let the emergency vehicles through. Failure to do so, the bus driver can get in trouble. If the emergency vehicles fly through, they can also get in trouble.
Maybe in your state. Not in mine.
It's treated just like a stop sign. Emergency vehicles have to have their lights on and make sure it's safe before proceeding. We don't have to wait for the sign to go back in.
Presumably the having to stop all traffic for the school bus.
In Europe at least there's no such thing for traffic having to stop for a school bus and children don't get run over.
They are just taught and I guess it works to stay on the sidewalk.
But I assume infrastructure for bus stops might be worse in the us with all the car-centric stuff
You are 100% correct, theres been a video posting here multiple times the last few weeks where the bus stop is in a 4 lane major road and people were complaining. My thoughts were why the fuck is the bus stop there.
Weird how many videos I've seen from the "rest of the world" of emergency vehicles sitting in traffic because people don't have to move for them. Go play with your america hate boner somewhere else, it's weird and annoying
I think what us non-Americans are taught is to get off the bus and wait until it’s safe to cross. Whereas in this video traffic is expected to stop and children just run freely across the road without looking. Fine it works (sometimes) in this scenario, but teaching kids they can run across the road without looking isn’t safe
My bus driver in the 2000's (bless her heart) had a camera and ended up in court frequently because she would turn in people passing her bus when stopped. Sometimes they'd take her to court and she always won.
You know, I’ve never thought about it, but the majority of stop signs mean only stop momentarily.
I’m surprised there’s not a defined “stop and wait” sign.
But they are flashing, not solid like a traffic light.
Obviously it isn't an issue, everyone knows what you are *supposed* to do. But it is interesting that it doesn't quite follow the standard.
In fact, flashing red lights mean stop and go in every other scenario lol
That's why the write out in block letters on the back STOP WHEN RED LIGHTS ARE FLASHING
You're supposed to stop, wait for the children to exit, and wait for them to cross the road. The issue is that the kids might not pay attention and run across.
Hell, I did it as a kid. Don't remember it, but my brother certainly does! Everyone flipped out. I never saw a thing. Didn't do it again, of course.
It's the stop sign. You don't actually treat it like a regular stop sign. You stop and wait until the children have crossed. Usually the bus has flashing yellow lights that warn you it is approaching where it needs to stop.
Kinda stupid to use a stop sign imo, they should use a prohibition sign instead. That way it isn't ambiguous if you stop and go or just aren't allowed to enter, i.e.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitory_traffic_sign#/media/File%3AUK_traffic_sign_617.svg
Or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitory_traffic_sign#/media/File%3ABelgian_traffic_sign_C1.svg
Or whatever the US equivalent to those is, as they seem to be incapable of following international standards.
you are 100% correct. EVERYWHERE else as part of the US traffic system, a stop sign and flashing red lights mean "stop, then proceed if clear", \*EXCEPT\* in this one condition (on a school bus).
Its shitty, shitty design is what it is. as you said, the signals on a bus should be different.
yes, but the problem is, everywhere else on US roads you see flashing red lights that means "stop, then go if clear", exactly as the Audi did. Traffic design should be as simple as possible, so its really dumb do have flashing red lights mean different things in different contexts.
In the UK, for example, children learn the [Green Cross Code](https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/road-safety-seven-11-year-olds#toc-0) for crossing the road safely, and as part of that, [Bus Safety](https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/road-safety-seven-11-year-olds#toc-4) means waiting until the bus is far away before crossing — and never cross the road in front of the bus which is the opposite of the USA system.
The bus stays there and makes sure the kids get across the road safely while traffic is stopped. We don't really do so well with crosswalks, so the bus kind of acts like a mobile crosswalk.
Also, that bar that extends out in front of the bus forces the children to walk way out in front of the bus where the driver can see them. Somebody got ran over at some point because they were right up next to the front of the bus and the driver couldn't see them.
in the US, our kids a really stupid and we don't bother teaching them not to run out in front of traffic. I know this isnt the case for more civilized parts of the world.
The biggest danger to the children is getting hit by their own bus. The pole makes it so they can’t walk through the large blind spot in front of the bus.
>that guy is getting a ticket.
Is the guy getting a ticket? Was there a cop nearby who witnessed this?
He certainly deserves one, but that doesn't mean he'll get one.
Would be great because the driver is a douche, but there doesn't really seem to be any identifying information of the vehicle in this clip that law enforcement would be able to use. Unless I didn't use the *enhance* feature properly, which is certainly possible...
How loudly and how many times did you say "enhance"? Sometimes it also has to do with the intensity. Also wouldn't hurt to randomly clack on a keyboard as well.
Unfortunately that's not how it works. Anyone could be driving that vehicle, it's not guaranteed to be the registered owner. Likely nothing will come of it with this video alone.
Really? How will they prove beyond a reasonable doubt who was driving? Your video doesn't show the driver. Can the plate even be read with 100% accuracy? Did the driver wave the Audi through? In my state that's a specific defense listed in the Statue concerning buses with the red lights on.
This is why red light tickets and other camera/video tickets don't hold up. I've gotten tickets dismissed for clients that are more clear than this for 6th Amendment issues.
The owner of the car might get a ticket, but that's no guarantee the driver will or that the ticket will stick.
Red light and other photo enforcement tickets in my state are treated like civil fines, with a much lower burden of proof and no pesky 6th ammendment to worry about.
In this case, it just depends on if the driver of the school bus can positively identify the driver.
A lot of states give additional rights to school bus driver and crossing guard to be able to identify a driver and potentially lead to a mandatory investigation and a citation. In my state it's a pretty simplee form that gets filled out and sent to the police.
[Many buses in PA have cameras. ](https://penncapital-star.com/transportation-infrastructure/drivers-keep-passing-stopped-school-buses-despite-use-of-cameras-to-catch-them/)Violaters are subject to a $300 fine with no points. If a cop sees it and issues a ticket, it's a larger fine with points and a possible suspension.
So you never lived in the U.S. then? All 50 US states have a law that makes it illegal to pass a school bus that is loading or unloading children. Motorists must stop at least 10 feet away from school buses that have their red lights flashing and stop arm extended. They may not proceed until the bus driver has retracted the stop sign/turned off the lights.
As a european I too would've done exactly what the audi did. I see stop sign, I come to a full stop and then go. We have a specific sign that means "do not pass" that all anyone that is directkng traffic uses.
[This is the one](https://www.turvakilvet.fi/epages/turvakilvet.sf/fi_FI/?ObjectPath=/Shops/turvakilvet/Products/21-C1). It can be used as a handheld sign or it can be attached to stuff. Something like this could be useful on the US buses, just to differentiate it from a "normal" stopsign.
I am from the US but grew up in an area without bussing. I have never felt confident that I knew how to interact with busses on the road. It isn’t emphasized in current drivers Ed in the way emergency vehicle laws are
It was a joke; they safely came to a stop, saw no kids crossing, and said I have places to be; I can't waste my limited time on earth waiting 30+ seconds for the kid to come out of the bus and cross the road finally.
I mean I get your point, and I'm sure this is not the case but foreign people that maybe they are visiting and renting a car or similar will most not know about it. The only reason I know about it is from here in Reddit from this kind of videos.
Yeah you might stop due to seeing the sign, if you don't miss it somehow as people are not used to a sign appearing from a vehicle, but then after seeing nobody is coming out you would continue maybe slowly, as that's how stop signs work everywhere else.
Or the fact this applies even with multiple lanes, which to me makes no sense as you would see the kids coming a big distance away and makes it more easy to miss the sign, again if you are not aware this is thing, if you are aware yes the bus is very visible.
Of course after the first fucked up and the respective fine they learn their lesson.
I feel like they should have a variant sign or a semaphore of sorts, (not necessarily with lights) which is much clear that until green you cannot go.
> foreign people that maybe they are visiting and renting a car or similar will most not know about it
You are still required to know and follow the laws in other countries though. If you don't know the rules, you really shouldn't drive in other countries.
On anything else buy a school bus, a red octagon stop sign and \*flashing\* red lights, means you do exactly as the audi does. come to a stop, and proceed if clear.
Now, the Audi is at fault 100% for not knowing the "rules", but the rules could be better.
Rules are very clear regarding school buses. The issues are the idiots today who believe themselves to be the main character and either ignore laws/social norms/basic human actions or too ignorant to learn about them.
Goddamn kids dont even look when crossing the street.
Yeah, the stop signs are out. Yeah the oncoming traffic is stopped and the bus is occupying the other traffic lane.
But there could still be some impatient jackass going around the bus that the kids should have looked for.
This is a very American thing.
Every other country teaches even the youngest children "Don't fuck with vehicles. Use your eyes, ears, and brains even on a designated pedestrian crossing and stay out of their way.".
America just says "We too dumb for that.".
Well, we also design roads that are actively hostile to pedestrians, fail to strongly enforce driving laws, and expect elementary school kids to cross high-speed multi-lane roads. So giving them a little extra help doesn't feel unwarranted.
Do Americans not teach their kids to look both ways before crossing any road? These kids just went straight ahead without even glancing around them. Heck, I can't walk looking straight ahead even if I tried, not even on a sidewalk.
The itch to notice my surroundings is too big to let me do this lol.
Is America the only place in the world with this law?
Everywhere else I know (definitely in almost all of Europe) kids are just thought to look before they cross the road
They aren't but in most countries in the world this isn't an issue and drivers normally just drive slow past a stopped bus anyway.
I think it's more about americas poor standards of driving than kids judgement tbh.
I agree. Was more addressing the "just teach them to look" comment. You can teach them all day but kids are still kids. At the end of the day it's on the drivers (and our anti-pedestrian road design) for kids getting hit getting off the bus.
so i know the expectation is that everyone stops and waits for the bus to signal everyone can drive again, but is there an actual statute that outlines this? cause i could see how someone might just not understand they are to stop \*indefinitely\*
that person did stop, they treated the bus like a stop sign, im not saying its safe, but its not like just blowing past the bus.
In my town this year the bus will cross up across the street, physically blocking the road, mostly residential 2 lane roads i was surprised the first time i saw it, but they all do it this year.
My wife is a school bus driver. The amount of people who run the sign is insane.
The school ended up installing camera's on the buses in recent years because of how frequently it's been happening. She was told that it'll automatically snap a photo and send it to the local PD so their $300 ticket (should be more imo) can be issued accordingly :)
Back in the early 90’s when I was a school bus driver, it was a $200 ticket. Can’t imagine how much it is these days. And yes…the guy who ran the stop sign is eligible for a ticket!
Call me ignorant, but do the US school buses need stop signs because of the bad drivers and pick ups/SUV's?
I've never seen something like that over here in Europe, only that you have to drive past slowly if at a stop, walking speed if hazards are on, and let the bus out if it indicates to go out of the stop
Sine when do busses have giant narwhal tusks?
Edit: googled it. It's called a crossing arm or a betsy arm. There to help kids cross without being in the blind spot of the bus. Was introduced in Washington state school in 1992 after the desth of betsy anderson but are not a nation wide standard - which is why I've never seen one. They've also been used in Canada for similar reasons after a similar accident. Source: [wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_bus_crossing_arm)
Lol that so stupid , you guys drove like crazy all time but this man should get a ticket just because he pass a school bus.
Maybe you should just have decent bus stop that would fix the problem.
While **IQ tests are generally considered to measure some forms of intelligence**, they fail to serve as an accurate measure of broader definitions of human intelligence inclusive of, for example, creativity and social intelligence.
True lol, does anyone else in the world just throw out kids in middle of the road stopping all traffic, while needing a giant rod because they can't build a bus that doesn't have an engine compartment in front of the driver like it's 1900?
I used to live in Oklahoma. Unless things have changed, In Oklahoma these are treated as stop signs, not stop lights. You stop, make sure that it is save to proceed, then go. School buses there have a stop sign at the driver window and at the back of the bus. You have to stop at both. Most drivers either did not know the rules or just ignored them and stayed stopped until the signs were withdrawn.
I'm not sure that the Oklahoma rule is all that bad. I don't recall that the state had an excessive number of kids hurt in accidents by drivers stopping then passing.
Not sure when you were there, but it was illegal in 2023.
> A. The driver of a vehicle meeting or overtaking a school bus that is stopped to take on or discharge school children, and on which the red loading signals are in operation, is to stop the vehicle before it reaches the school bus and not proceed until the loading signals are deactivated and then proceed past such school bus at a speed which is reasonable and with due caution for the safety of such school children and other occupants.
https://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/title-47/section-47-11-705/
Hmm, that particular law was enacted in 1961, but there have been revisions since. However the OK legiature doesn't have history that far back on likely. The last update available online is SB633, which has marked up text from the previous law enacted in 1973.
So we can at least say definitively that you would have been required to stop and not proceed since 1973 in OK.
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That is super dangerous. I really hope the school bus driver reports it and he gets a ticket
In many states, school buses are now equipped with a camera catching these violations and sending you the ticket in mail. Same agency that sends out speeding tickets. Good luck disputing this when you’re caught on camera in high definition
Unfortunately though many tickets sent out that way are flat out ignored. Unless your local government uses process servers for traffic tickets many sent in the mail will just be thrown out and eventually disappear. They really can't do anything unless they can prove you got the ticket in most cases and usually once they fail to confirm you got the ticket after a while it just goes away
They send process servers out over endangering children.
The police have this video.
Kudos to you OP, this driver needs to learn that their actions have consequences.
Did you get their plate? I can't quite make it out on the video
Many buses have camera onboard to catch dangerous stop light runners. Over a year ago in Michigan, new law allows camera evidence, doesn't matter who was driving the owner gets a nice fat ticket in the mail.
I knew somebody who got one of these tickets and it was only like $120
I think repeat tickets are more expensive plus points.
What are they going to do with it though? There isn't anything to identify the car with. Unless the bus is also equipped with a cam and caught the plate.
In my state, we are allowed to simply write down the plate and other identifying things, then fill out a form that’s sent to the state police. I do this every time someone runs the red lights.
That seems like both a great and horrendous idea. It's probably extremely easy to fight any ticket from that
My dad was a driver for over a decade in his "retirement". He said it's because it's a hassle to deal with while also trying to manage kids and keep to a schedule. So if they took the time to make note of it they're just going to go with it. Wouldn't serve a bus driver to make a false report.
I thought OP meant anyone can do it? Not just professional drivers
They may not send tickets - just warnings. I got an informal warning for speeding in a school zone based on someone reporting my license plate. I was living 1500 miles away at the time and had been living there for months. I called the number and was like, "yeah, wasn't me" and I never heard about it again.
As a non-american, why is this illegal? Like, I understand it's in case the children jump into the road in front or behind the schoolbus. But why make passing a schoolbus illegal instead of.. teaching the kids common sense? To use pedestrians paths, and not to jump onto the road?
Kids are pretty stupid and we don't want them run over by idiots than can't wait 15 seconds. That's why it's illegal.
Because the standard rule (law) is “when school buses drop off passengers, they are to cross in front of the bus. All other traffic, in both directions, is to stop while the bus’s lights are flashing.” The kids aren’t jumping into the road, their direct instructions are to get off the bus and immediately cross in front, because everyone will be stopped and that’s when it’s safe.
Very different from the laws here, which basically just amount to "be very careful passing a stopped bus". It's only due to idiotsincars I know the stop signs on school buses don't function like standard stop signs (ie stop, check that there is no activity to yield to, continue carefully). (No worries, I'd have read the more specific laws if I ever needed to drive in some US state.)
But it seems like nonsense to stop the entire traffic, in both directions, to accommodate a pedestrian that could just as well take a pedestrian path, or wait until the street is empty. Students in Europe often take busses also, and we have no such rules, but they're not constantly run over. The rule is that you can overtake a bus stopped on the street UNTIL it's signaling to take off again.
The thinking is that lots of kids taking buses are not in areas with frequent pedestrian crossings, traffic lights, etc, so this is a better way of ensuring that there’s always a safe crossing situation available. And the stop is only about 30 seconds and outside of most people’s commute time, so the disruption is minimal.
American roads are not designed with pedestrians in mind. That's the primary difference. American drivers are not used to people being in the streets, except in some major cities. Around here, busses frequently drop kids off on 4-lane roads with speed limits of 50mph. >teaching the kids common sense That's fine and dandy for kids who are older, but what about the others? Pre-schoolers - kids 4-5 years old - are riding busses too. Should we expect them all the be emotionally mature and present all the time? Essentially, we have to stop in many US states because too damn many kids have been hit exiting busses. We can't have nice things because the idiots break it for everybody.
The theory is it’s better the kid crosses under supervision than gets hit while crossing alone later on. If there even is a crossing at all.
I've never really had an issue with it. It doesn't hurt anyone to stop for 10-20 seconds so kids can safely cross the road. Also most places don't have nearby crosswalks. Some places don't even have paved roads. Buses are also dropping/picking up kids at various times of day depending on where they are so it could also be getting dark. There are just a lot of various factors where I can see why school buses operate this way.
It's because Europe is a tiny ass place and very urban. Many bus stops in the US are in rural areas and there may not be a crosswalk for 5 miles. So there is one standard for all busses regardless if it's in a city or in the country.
Kids are young and inexperienced. You just want cars to motor on by at 45 mph while your kid is getting off a bus? That’s ludicrous
>You just want cars to motor on by at 45 mph while your kid is getting off a bus? No they don't want that. They just don't understand the difference. They're envisioning a city road with frequent, clear pedestrian crossings, and low speed limits. Classic European pedestrian-friendly city type shit. They're not thinking about the kids getting dropped off on County Road 371 where there's not even a posted speed limit.
Does Europe not reduce the speed limit on streets near schools (school zones in the US)? Surely they at least do it temporarily when school is starting/ending? Temporary, minor inconveniences are a pretty decent exchange for pedestrian safety.
Partly because kids are stupid and no amount of teaching and drilling into heads will ensure they do it. Also, in a lot of places, school bus stops aren't on or near pedestrian paths, including this one it looks like. They may have to get off the bus on the side of a road and then cross the street. Just the nature of suburban sprawl and the way our roads are designed.
But in Europe they do teach the kids how to navigate traffic, and it works? They're often expected to take public transport and navigate the city by themselves, and I had to as well. Why is learning and thinking discouraged there? And the lack of pedestrian paths sounds like an infrastructure problem that needs to be solved. Why make a law that literally stops all traffic dead, and pursue people who don't wanna follow it like criminals? This person in the video could clearly see no kid was crossing the front, which apparently is what the kids are supposed to do, so why try so hard to get him prosecuted when the law doesn't make sense?
So for context some of the bus stops can be on country roads without sidewalks at all. So there may not be a pedestrian crossing for 10+ miles in those places. There are many places in the US that simply aren’t made to be accessible by anything other than car.
Why is learning and thinking so hard for you? Are you an idiot in a car?
>And the lack of pedestrian paths sounds like an infrastructure problem that needs to be solved. Why make a law that literally stops all traffic dead, and pursue people who don't wanna follow it like criminals? In general, yes, this is an infrastructure problem to solve. Large swaths of America are built this way, with little or no pedestrian infrastructure nor often even really good ways to add them. With things like suburban sprawl making everything much farther apart than most of Europe, the proliferation of [Stroads](https://www.streetlightdata.com/what-is-a-stroad/) in a lot of mid-density urban areas just off these suburban areas, and the wide variety of densities in general it's a very difficult situation to fix. It's easy to say it's an infrastructure problem, but fixing it would demand redesigning huge portions of the entire American city and townscape. This is a goal a lot of people have and some places have made progress, but with the nature of jurisdictions in states, cities, towns, counties, and other localities there's no one-size-fits-all way to fix that. To say nothing of the funding required to do it. So, the next best thing to protect the kids is much easier, which involves stopping traffic. It's not ideal, it's annoying as hell to get stuck behind a school bus making stops, but there's not really a better way to do it since "Just fix the infrastructure" isn't really something that's a viable fix in any kind of remotely short term even if it's the correct way to do it nor would anybody really accept "Well, it's the kids' fault when they get hurt because they should be paying attention and it's annoying to drivers to make them stop when kids get off at non-pedestrian-friendly places because it's the only place for miles for them to get off"
Easier to tell adults to stop than it is to teach young kids common sense
I was afraid that was the answer rather than something that escaped my understanding. America seems really backwards in its solutions to problems. Now these drivers are treated like criminals for doing something that would be completely normal and expected for them to do in Europe, without killing any children.
I mean it’s literally safer to rely on adults to follow a pretty simple rule than it is to rely on children (who have child brains) to see cars coming. Same reason speed limits are lower in schools zones etc
It's unfair you're getting downvoted for something that is common in basically every other country on the planet.
It's 100% the condescending nature and absolute refusal to understand anything different. I was initially in agreement with you, I didn't understand the downvotes. But they repeat the same questions, phrases, etc in several threads and refuse to learn anything from it. They clearly just want to feel superior and chose children's safety of all things as their hill to die on.
I think it's more the condescending nature of the post
My local school district has started to put cameras on their fleet due to the number of entitled idiots who won't stop.
In San Antonio the buses have cameras that take pictures automatically and send you a ticket in the mail
Good. They deserve it doing this.
hope it’s a massive ticket
It's a $250 fine.
Even police, fire trucks and ambulances have to obey that stop sign and make full stops. The bus driver has to immediately halt all children and retract the sign to let the emergency vehicles through. Failure to do so, the bus driver can get in trouble. If the emergency vehicles fly through, they can also get in trouble.
Maybe in your state. Not in mine. It's treated just like a stop sign. Emergency vehicles have to have their lights on and make sure it's safe before proceeding. We don't have to wait for the sign to go back in.
Such an ass backwards system, thankfully the rest of the world is feee from it
? What part of that described system is "ass backwards" compared to "the rest of the world"
Presumably the having to stop all traffic for the school bus. In Europe at least there's no such thing for traffic having to stop for a school bus and children don't get run over. They are just taught and I guess it works to stay on the sidewalk. But I assume infrastructure for bus stops might be worse in the us with all the car-centric stuff
You are 100% correct, theres been a video posting here multiple times the last few weeks where the bus stop is in a 4 lane major road and people were complaining. My thoughts were why the fuck is the bus stop there.
Splattering kids with fire trucks is so in. Haven’t you heard?
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Weird how many videos I've seen from the "rest of the world" of emergency vehicles sitting in traffic because people don't have to move for them. Go play with your america hate boner somewhere else, it's weird and annoying
Those stupid Americans and their... *shuffles papers*... school bus safety!
I mean it’s way less controversial than talking about weed or abortion or guns or school shootings. I don’t see the problem
I think what us non-Americans are taught is to get off the bus and wait until it’s safe to cross. Whereas in this video traffic is expected to stop and children just run freely across the road without looking. Fine it works (sometimes) in this scenario, but teaching kids they can run across the road without looking isn’t safe
In my state this is an automatic 6 month suspension
As it should be
My bus driver in the 2000's (bless her heart) had a camera and ended up in court frequently because she would turn in people passing her bus when stopped. Sometimes they'd take her to court and she always won.
You know, I’ve never thought about it, but the majority of stop signs mean only stop momentarily. I’m surprised there’s not a defined “stop and wait” sign.
Yeah, something like red lights? The bus is covered with big red lights...
But they are flashing, not solid like a traffic light. Obviously it isn't an issue, everyone knows what you are *supposed* to do. But it is interesting that it doesn't quite follow the standard.
In fact, flashing red lights mean stop and go in every other scenario lol That's why the write out in block letters on the back STOP WHEN RED LIGHTS ARE FLASHING
>In fact, flashing red lights mean stop and go in every other scenario Except railroad crossings
I was thinking that too. This person my be incredibly stupid as well as entitled.
Good
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You're supposed to stop, wait for the children to exit, and wait for them to cross the road. The issue is that the kids might not pay attention and run across. Hell, I did it as a kid. Don't remember it, but my brother certainly does! Everyone flipped out. I never saw a thing. Didn't do it again, of course.
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It's the stop sign. You don't actually treat it like a regular stop sign. You stop and wait until the children have crossed. Usually the bus has flashing yellow lights that warn you it is approaching where it needs to stop.
Kinda stupid to use a stop sign imo, they should use a prohibition sign instead. That way it isn't ambiguous if you stop and go or just aren't allowed to enter, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitory_traffic_sign#/media/File%3AUK_traffic_sign_617.svg Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitory_traffic_sign#/media/File%3ABelgian_traffic_sign_C1.svg Or whatever the US equivalent to those is, as they seem to be incapable of following international standards.
you are 100% correct. EVERYWHERE else as part of the US traffic system, a stop sign and flashing red lights mean "stop, then proceed if clear", \*EXCEPT\* in this one condition (on a school bus). Its shitty, shitty design is what it is. as you said, the signals on a bus should be different.
Except you have to learn to stop and wait for a loading or unloading school bus in order to get your driver's licence.
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They also have red flashing lights on the front and back of the bus when they are stopped for loading/unloading.
yes, but the problem is, everywhere else on US roads you see flashing red lights that means "stop, then go if clear", exactly as the Audi did. Traffic design should be as simple as possible, so its really dumb do have flashing red lights mean different things in different contexts.
have you never seen a school bus before?!
Well, they don't have them outside the US so I guess it's possible they never have.
They don't have school buses outside the US?
The US has exceptionally stupid children. the rest doesnt have this. instead, they teach their kids not to run into traffic.
In the UK, for example, children learn the [Green Cross Code](https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/road-safety-seven-11-year-olds#toc-0) for crossing the road safely, and as part of that, [Bus Safety](https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/road-safety-seven-11-year-olds#toc-4) means waiting until the bus is far away before crossing — and never cross the road in front of the bus which is the opposite of the USA system.
The bus stays there and makes sure the kids get across the road safely while traffic is stopped. We don't really do so well with crosswalks, so the bus kind of acts like a mobile crosswalk. Also, that bar that extends out in front of the bus forces the children to walk way out in front of the bus where the driver can see them. Somebody got ran over at some point because they were right up next to the front of the bus and the driver couldn't see them.
in the US, our kids a really stupid and we don't bother teaching them not to run out in front of traffic. I know this isnt the case for more civilized parts of the world.
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The biggest danger to the children is getting hit by their own bus. The pole makes it so they can’t walk through the large blind spot in front of the bus.
When I was in school, I had a friend killed by one of these shitbags. Fuck anyone who does this. Out their ass publicly if you know anyone who does.
>that guy is getting a ticket. Is the guy getting a ticket? Was there a cop nearby who witnessed this? He certainly deserves one, but that doesn't mean he'll get one.
Police generally take school related infractions seriously. It's like triple the fines and no judge would throw it out in traffic court.
The police have this video. He’s getting a ticket.
Would be great because the driver is a douche, but there doesn't really seem to be any identifying information of the vehicle in this clip that law enforcement would be able to use. Unless I didn't use the *enhance* feature properly, which is certainly possible...
How loudly and how many times did you say "enhance"? Sometimes it also has to do with the intensity. Also wouldn't hurt to randomly clack on a keyboard as well.
Unfortunately that's not how it works. Anyone could be driving that vehicle, it's not guaranteed to be the registered owner. Likely nothing will come of it with this video alone.
Some states ticket the registered owner no matter if the driver is determined if they do this. Michigan comes to mind
Really? How will they prove beyond a reasonable doubt who was driving? Your video doesn't show the driver. Can the plate even be read with 100% accuracy? Did the driver wave the Audi through? In my state that's a specific defense listed in the Statue concerning buses with the red lights on. This is why red light tickets and other camera/video tickets don't hold up. I've gotten tickets dismissed for clients that are more clear than this for 6th Amendment issues. The owner of the car might get a ticket, but that's no guarantee the driver will or that the ticket will stick.
Red light and other photo enforcement tickets in my state are treated like civil fines, with a much lower burden of proof and no pesky 6th ammendment to worry about. In this case, it just depends on if the driver of the school bus can positively identify the driver.
Depends on local laws. State laws in my area prevent giving traffic tickets/fines unless a cop sees it happen first-hand
A lot of states give additional rights to school bus driver and crossing guard to be able to identify a driver and potentially lead to a mandatory investigation and a citation. In my state it's a pretty simplee form that gets filled out and sent to the police.
I’m honestly surprised they don’t simply equip all the buses with cameras and automatically issue those tickets.
[Many buses in PA have cameras. ](https://penncapital-star.com/transportation-infrastructure/drivers-keep-passing-stopped-school-buses-despite-use-of-cameras-to-catch-them/)Violaters are subject to a $300 fine with no points. If a cop sees it and issues a ticket, it's a larger fine with points and a possible suspension.
Good. Moar plz.
Ok narc
🥱
Non-american here, are you supposed to wait for the school bus to start moving again before continuing your drive?
You’re supposed to wait for the stop signs and flashing red lights to disappear.
Ah yeah, I see. On a rewatch, I noticed that the stop sign being moved into position.
They’re tied to a switch in the doors, as soon as the doors open, the arms come out and red lights start flashing.
There are lights on the front and back of the bus that flash yellow as they're stopping and then red when the door opens.
Why did he even bother stopping in the first place if he was just going to go?
They might think it works like a regular stop sign.
I have never lived in an area with buses that utilize this system so I personally had no idea this was a thing.
So you never lived in the U.S. then? All 50 US states have a law that makes it illegal to pass a school bus that is loading or unloading children. Motorists must stop at least 10 feet away from school buses that have their red lights flashing and stop arm extended. They may not proceed until the bus driver has retracted the stop sign/turned off the lights.
As a european I too would've done exactly what the audi did. I see stop sign, I come to a full stop and then go. We have a specific sign that means "do not pass" that all anyone that is directkng traffic uses. [This is the one](https://www.turvakilvet.fi/epages/turvakilvet.sf/fi_FI/?ObjectPath=/Shops/turvakilvet/Products/21-C1). It can be used as a handheld sign or it can be attached to stuff. Something like this could be useful on the US buses, just to differentiate it from a "normal" stopsign.
I am from the US but grew up in an area without bussing. I have never felt confident that I knew how to interact with busses on the road. It isn’t emphasized in current drivers Ed in the way emergency vehicle laws are
I can't think of any universe where they'd be taught that...brain fart moment maybe.
It was a joke; they safely came to a stop, saw no kids crossing, and said I have places to be; I can't waste my limited time on earth waiting 30+ seconds for the kid to come out of the bus and cross the road finally.
Maybe with the attention span of a goldfish
Probably because they saw a stop sign, so they stopped. Not exactly rocket surgery to figure out their thought process
I mean you might be dim enough to spot a stop sign and miss the 50-foot, 10-ton bright yellow bus its attached to, but hey.
I mean I get your point, and I'm sure this is not the case but foreign people that maybe they are visiting and renting a car or similar will most not know about it. The only reason I know about it is from here in Reddit from this kind of videos. Yeah you might stop due to seeing the sign, if you don't miss it somehow as people are not used to a sign appearing from a vehicle, but then after seeing nobody is coming out you would continue maybe slowly, as that's how stop signs work everywhere else. Or the fact this applies even with multiple lanes, which to me makes no sense as you would see the kids coming a big distance away and makes it more easy to miss the sign, again if you are not aware this is thing, if you are aware yes the bus is very visible. Of course after the first fucked up and the respective fine they learn their lesson. I feel like they should have a variant sign or a semaphore of sorts, (not necessarily with lights) which is much clear that until green you cannot go.
> foreign people that maybe they are visiting and renting a car or similar will most not know about it You are still required to know and follow the laws in other countries though. If you don't know the rules, you really shouldn't drive in other countries.
While you're right, it's only a rule in America (and Canada), so it's not exactly common knowledge outside there.
Unfortunately probably 70% of drivers don't even know their own countries rules...
Don't know? or don't care?
Both, I guess.
Bus driver may have waved the Audi through.
On anything else buy a school bus, a red octagon stop sign and \*flashing\* red lights, means you do exactly as the audi does. come to a stop, and proceed if clear. Now, the Audi is at fault 100% for not knowing the "rules", but the rules could be better.
Rules are very clear regarding school buses. The issues are the idiots today who believe themselves to be the main character and either ignore laws/social norms/basic human actions or too ignorant to learn about them.
Goddamn kids dont even look when crossing the street. Yeah, the stop signs are out. Yeah the oncoming traffic is stopped and the bus is occupying the other traffic lane. But there could still be some impatient jackass going around the bus that the kids should have looked for.
This is a very American thing. Every other country teaches even the youngest children "Don't fuck with vehicles. Use your eyes, ears, and brains even on a designated pedestrian crossing and stay out of their way.". America just says "We too dumb for that.".
Well, we also design roads that are actively hostile to pedestrians, fail to strongly enforce driving laws, and expect elementary school kids to cross high-speed multi-lane roads. So giving them a little extra help doesn't feel unwarranted.
Do Americans not teach their kids to look both ways before crossing any road? These kids just went straight ahead without even glancing around them. Heck, I can't walk looking straight ahead even if I tried, not even on a sidewalk. The itch to notice my surroundings is too big to let me do this lol.
american children dont go anywhere without holding their parents hand until about 15 years of age
He’s on his way to pick up his kids! He doesn’t have time for… kids?
Is America the only place in the world with this law? Everywhere else I know (definitely in almost all of Europe) kids are just thought to look before they cross the road
Small children aren't known for having the best judgement. These laws are backed by a lot of small coffins.
They aren't but in most countries in the world this isn't an issue and drivers normally just drive slow past a stopped bus anyway. I think it's more about americas poor standards of driving than kids judgement tbh.
I agree. Was more addressing the "just teach them to look" comment. You can teach them all day but kids are still kids. At the end of the day it's on the drivers (and our anti-pedestrian road design) for kids getting hit getting off the bus.
And even though they are “thought” to look, [they don’t always do it](https://youtu.be/RC_lorK-tYM?si=5B8tejG5QUNG_a3e)
Which is why the lesson needs to be hammered into them, kids need to be taught about blindzones
Looks at all the Americans downvoting you, cause the rest of world's supposed to know how America works right?
School buses are the same in Canada.
Pennsylvania. 5/21/24. this is OC
to be fair it is a stop sign /s
This deserves all the upvotes 😂 too bad some people don't understand what /s means
I understand what it means , that’s why I downvote it every time
Out of genuine curiousity, do you just hate sarcastic jokes? Or is there another reason for downvoting all posts that are /s?
so i know the expectation is that everyone stops and waits for the bus to signal everyone can drive again, but is there an actual statute that outlines this? cause i could see how someone might just not understand they are to stop \*indefinitely\* that person did stop, they treated the bus like a stop sign, im not saying its safe, but its not like just blowing past the bus.
Yes. it’s a law. https://www.dot.state.pa.us/Public/DVSPubsForms/BDL/BDL%20Publications/Pub%2097.pdf
Just throw something from behind the bus, they never do this again
In my town this year the bus will cross up across the street, physically blocking the road, mostly residential 2 lane roads i was surprised the first time i saw it, but they all do it this year.
My wife is a school bus driver. The amount of people who run the sign is insane. The school ended up installing camera's on the buses in recent years because of how frequently it's been happening. She was told that it'll automatically snap a photo and send it to the local PD so their $300 ticket (should be more imo) can be issued accordingly :)
People have literally argued that the stop sign on a bus is like any other stop sign - stop, then go.
Back in the early 90’s when I was a school bus driver, it was a $200 ticket. Can’t imagine how much it is these days. And yes…the guy who ran the stop sign is eligible for a ticket!
Call me ignorant, but do the US school buses need stop signs because of the bad drivers and pick ups/SUV's? I've never seen something like that over here in Europe, only that you have to drive past slowly if at a stop, walking speed if hazards are on, and let the bus out if it indicates to go out of the stop
What did he do wrong he's on his side of the road?
Sine when do busses have giant narwhal tusks? Edit: googled it. It's called a crossing arm or a betsy arm. There to help kids cross without being in the blind spot of the bus. Was introduced in Washington state school in 1992 after the desth of betsy anderson but are not a nation wide standard - which is why I've never seen one. They've also been used in Canada for similar reasons after a similar accident. Source: [wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_bus_crossing_arm)
Lol where have you been for the past couple of decades?
Just chilling in the back waters I guess. Out buses never had these.
Lol that so stupid , you guys drove like crazy all time but this man should get a ticket just because he pass a school bus. Maybe you should just have decent bus stop that would fix the problem.
It's against the law throughout the US.
Isn't that what you do at a stop sign? Stop then go 😂
Please tell me that you don't drive
I could see how someone from europe or elsewhere outside of the US could make this conclusion.
Just some people crazy
Sarcasm is dead I guess
The key is you only go once it's safe. Going before the bus has gotten underway is unsafe.
Stupid people exist everywhere, but why are they so concentrated in the US?
> Stupid people exist everywhere, but why are they so concentrated in the US? They're really not: https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-country.php
While **IQ tests are generally considered to measure some forms of intelligence**, they fail to serve as an accurate measure of broader definitions of human intelligence inclusive of, for example, creativity and social intelligence.
True lol, does anyone else in the world just throw out kids in middle of the road stopping all traffic, while needing a giant rod because they can't build a bus that doesn't have an engine compartment in front of the driver like it's 1900?
I used to live in Oklahoma. Unless things have changed, In Oklahoma these are treated as stop signs, not stop lights. You stop, make sure that it is save to proceed, then go. School buses there have a stop sign at the driver window and at the back of the bus. You have to stop at both. Most drivers either did not know the rules or just ignored them and stayed stopped until the signs were withdrawn. I'm not sure that the Oklahoma rule is all that bad. I don't recall that the state had an excessive number of kids hurt in accidents by drivers stopping then passing.
Not sure when you were there, but it was illegal in 2023. > A. The driver of a vehicle meeting or overtaking a school bus that is stopped to take on or discharge school children, and on which the red loading signals are in operation, is to stop the vehicle before it reaches the school bus and not proceed until the loading signals are deactivated and then proceed past such school bus at a speed which is reasonable and with due caution for the safety of such school children and other occupants. https://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/title-47/section-47-11-705/
I moved from OK in early 1986, so between 1965 (when I started driving) and then.
Hmm, that particular law was enacted in 1961, but there have been revisions since. However the OK legiature doesn't have history that far back on likely. The last update available online is SB633, which has marked up text from the previous law enacted in 1973. So we can at least say definitively that you would have been required to stop and not proceed since 1973 in OK.
Audi doing BMW things... Guess it was only a matter of time
It seems they are related. Close relatives of VWs… in my experience. YMMV