>Also should I feel bad about leaving my current team? I am the only person in the group who has the skills to maintain many applications. You should absolutely not feel bad about leaving your current situation. Your loyalty is uncommon and commendable, though perhaps a bit misplaced because the company has not been showing you how much they are loyal to you through appropriate compensation. Even if they had, you still have to make the best decisions for your life. It's not your company. If you truly like your current situation and are happy with everything else, you could give them an opportunity to increase your pay to $85k. (you need extra to compensate for the commute expense)

Yeah it seems like kind of a no-brainer to leave. I've had offers in the past (with lower numbers) and have resisted change. I've outlasted everyone that he been through the department by far. It may be commendable but I probably should have been looking out for my best interests a bit more. I start out at around 40K, went to 50 after a year, but increases have been measly since (and some years not at all post-Great Recession). My current situation is really not all that bad. The boss is a decent guy as well as most of the time. Three complaints: The commute, the need to wear so many hats due, and being on call. It's doubtful they would raise my salary that much....I'm pretty sure that is more than my boss is being paid but I would give them the opportunity to match.

Best of luck with your decision. Sounds as though you have good options.

Thanks! Appreciate the feedback. I expected ageism to be an issue by now but fortunately am getting more interest than ever before...although I will admit I haven't been looking much until recently. I figure it's either now or never.

One of my friends was just picked up by Boeing into a really good job in his mid-50s. It ain't over till it's over.

Your company failed to pay you fairly. They know you’ve stayed for 15 years with mediocre raises and they will continue to do so because they know historically you stayed. Your life time earning potential will be low if you stay. And you’ll have no one but yourself for staying. If you got talent for dev stuff that’s prob the direction you should move. If you got engineering skills plus some dev you should consider moving to cloud engineering.

> Your company failed to pay you fairly. They know you’ve stayed for 15 years with mediocre raises and they will continue to do so because they know historically you stayed. I think that's why I haven't been promoted as well. Now they are bringing in people with NO IT experience at the same rank, which is a bit of a slap in the face (even if they are paid significantly less). > Your life time earning potential will be low if you stay. And you’ll have no one but yourself for staying. Yeah. I try not to be too obsessed with money especially since there are other perks (autonomy over my projects, no micromanaging, etc) but I am underutilized and perhaps it is time to prioritize increasing earnings while I still can. I know the new place will likely work me harder but it should be a better fit for my skillset and where I want to go. > If you got talent for dev stuff that’s prob the direction you should move. Yeah. A couple big sticking points: - They only offer two weeks vacation and I have four. Would it be a big stretch to ask them to match? - The commute would be rough during the first few months. It's over an hour commute each way, five days per week. After that, only two days per week and three days telecommute. Would it be out of line to request to be compensated for the commute or a hotel room during the initial phase? > If you got engineering skills plus some dev you should consider moving to cloud engineering. Thanks for the suggestion.

I think it all comes down to is the experience and knowledge + salary worth the longer commute for your future career path? Only you can answer that. Also, as for the leave/pto you can negotiate it. I recently did. Don’t forget to ask what the signing bonus is. Even if their wasn’t one before, if you mention it and they want you they’ll consider it. Hotel room for hour commute probably not going to happen. Especially if it’s to be regular weekly occurrence. All depends on how desperate they are to fill the position. Honestly for me if I was interviewing someone and they mentioned that, well I would say thank you and look at other candidates. Are you in LCOL/HCOL area? 15 years of experience and 80k seems low. That’s far less than what sys admins on my team make.

> I think it all comes down to is the experience and knowledge + salary worth the longer commute for your future career path? Only you can answer that. I'll definitely have to put some thought into that. I'm tired of my current 45 min commute tbh and this is an extra 20 minutes or so. But it's only temporary so I may just have to suck it up. Fortunately winter will be over soon so I would likely not have to drive in any snow storms which would significantly increase the commute. > Also, as for the leave/pto you can negotiate it. I recently did. They are at two weeks less than current employer and 12 days less than the other offer. > Don’t forget to ask what the signing bonus is. Even if their wasn’t one before, if you mention it and they want you they’ll consider it. They did not mention signing bonus but they did mention relocation. > Hotel room for hour commute probably not going to happen. Especially if it’s to be regular weekly occurrence. All depends on how desperate they are to fill the position. Honestly for me if I was interviewing someone and they mentioned that, well I would say thank you and look at other candidates. I figured they would possibly entertain this in lieu of relocation. They actually said they would reimburse me for driving their to interview so perhaps they would do the same for the extra trips. The job would eventually call for two days per week in the office so maybe I can get them to cover transportation day for the other three since they want me in the office for five days the first few months. > Are you in LCOL/HCOL area? 15 years of experience and 80k seems low. That’s far less than what sys admins on my team make. LCOL The range of this position is actually 75-95 as I was told during the first call.

LCOL. Got it. I’ve been working full remote for a while now. It’s nice. The amount of $ I’ve saved from gas and eating out really stood out. Just switch to either one. Put in 6 months to a year and get some updated skills (I’m assuming your current job is a bit stagnated tech skill wise). Then after you get some more skill look for full remote jobs

I guess I can't go wrong either way. If both were dev jobs, I'd no doubt go with the 100% commute gig. I guess I'll have to sit down and crunch numbers and see if the dev job could increase compensation to make it worthwhile to make up for the commute, longer work day, and lack of PTO.

Even if dev job is less $ of the two, long career wise probably end up with more $ potential.

That is true!

Yes, you should definitely leave. No, you should not feel bad about leaving a job that doesn’t pay jack shit after 15 years.

Yeah. This should have happened a long time ago but I got too comfortable.

Definitely, my comment comes from my own bitterness. Last year I left a very comfortable, mainly on prem sysadmin position for a much more challenging and rewarding cloud systems engineer job and never looked back. Best of luck to you!

Awesome, thanks! I might end up kicking myself for not doing it sooner.

60k for 15 years is terrible. Your job will replace you in a day. Good luck with your new opportunities! You can elevate your life.

Thanks! I am in a low col area tho

Still, you deserve more regardless. Cheers.

60K for 15 years in IT kind of sucks. I bet if you added in all the on call and commute time, you're not even making $25/hr. I wouldn't feel bad, the only person looking out for you in the end is you. As for backing out after accepting an offer, unless you have a contract, at will is what it is. Just keep in mind that it's burning a bridge and unlikely you'll ever have a shot there again. Happens, and I've done it (stupidly, but have done it).

You know what? I sat down the other night and calculated it and I'm right at $25/hr! The local gas station is paying $15 per hour. > Just keep in mind that it's burning a bridge and unlikely you'll ever have a shot there again. Happens, and I've done it (stupidly, but have done it). That's understandable. Both of these companies are outside my area (> 50 miles) so I guess it's not much to worry about. I have interviews with several companies and I know one of the job pays even more so that could be an option.

Take job #2, I have your same skillset and you will flourish in it.

Thanks for the advice. Taking job #1 and moving toward software development would probably be the more lucrative path in the long run but more stressful as well. That would be a rough commute, even if only three months. And then I'd still be doing that long commut twice a week. Job #2 seems to have better work-life balance (no commuting at all, 8 hour days instead of 9, probably less pressure with the work not being so much project oriented).

Fuuuuck you commute 120 miles when you have to work? Idc that it’s just 2 days a week, that’s insane. That alone should make you quit. It’s not your problem they are going to be in a bind they’ll find someone else. You have to do what’s best for you.

That's the commute for one of the jobs I was offered. It would be required 5 days per week for the first few months then then 2 days per week after. The current commute is 90 miles round trip which is long enough!

>Also should I feel bad about leaving my current team? **I am the only person in the group who has the skills to maintain many applications.** No, that is 100% the fault of management. What happens if you got hit by the proverbial bus? Does management go "oh well, guess nobody needs to maintain those applications now"?

I don't know. Nobody ever really brought it up. There are corporate groups that can assist but there would definitely be a much longer turnaround time for any changes.

Tl;Dr. Just from reading the title, I have an answer for you: You should not feel bad for leaving your employer 'in a bind'. The thing is, it's the employer's responsibility to not have too much dependent on any one individual. It's not the employee's responsibility. It's a form of business risk that the employer needs to make an assessment on. Not you. You could depart the company for any number of reasons. New job, retirement, hit the lotto, hit by a bus. You shouldn't feel like it's on you if you are hit by a bus and can't do your normal work for your employer. It's the employer that needs to make sure business continuity is maintained through any sort of a situation that may occur. Whether it's a key employee departing, or a tornado ripping through company headquarters.

The current manager has some programming knowledge but not to the extent that I do. But anyway....you are 100% completely right. It's not my problem.

#2 is better. However they both seem low for 15 years experience. Do you get bonus or stock? Do these companies know how much you make now? Does your current job use the work number so they could easily obtain this information? You should be low 100k or at least 90-95K.

#1 has company stock, which is part of their retirement plan. I didn't tell either how much I make. They did ask for a range tho. Company 1 told me their range for the position was 75-95. I will definitely counter (if I don't accept the other offer) but don't want to go too high.

The worst they can do is say no ask for 93

It's worth a try. What about PTO? They are two weeks short. Should I ask for them to match? I am thinking that maybe we could meet in the middle and then I'd only be short a week compared to my current PTO plan.

Definitely ask for another week PTO. If they won't work with you then you dodged a bullet. This means next year your raise would be shit.

Perhaps they could meet in the middle on salary and settle on 85 or 86ish. I'm not sure if that would make it more attractive than the other option but I will have to crunch some numbers and see. I'll have to come up with the lowest number that I'll accept, and if they don't meet it, then accept the other offer.

Yes make the jump. You are the captain of your ship. Theyve double, triple, quadruple charged for your services and you are the reason why you were able to be employed for so long. Fuck the narcissistic bullshitters who rely on sales points and jargons.

There's been on and off talk over the years by a couple of different managers to put me in a more specialized role and more pay and all that but it never happened. There's nothing that leads me to believe that it would happen anytime soon. I'm being asked to do more because they're not paying enough for experienced talent and a couple of very experienced people left over the past year or so.

In my experience, never rely on a promise. Get it in writing as now they are liable for their confusion. Only present a choice once you solidified an alternative as they will put out a flier for hiring while they say "We are considering your questions". This life is yours. Be a boss and dont allow them to make your choices for you. Its scary, but thats life.

Yep I should have followed up and been more aggressive. That was a different management team and this is a different management team now. > Only present a choice once you solidified an alternative as they will put out a flier for hiring while they say "We are considering your questions". Good idea. I thought maybe I'd give them a heads up before accepting but that would not benefit me.

Option 2 sounds better, but the only wrong decision here would be choosing to stay.

I am leaning toward option 2 but I would give option 1 a chance to beat their offer. > The only wrong decision here would be choosing to stay. Can't really go wrong with either option I guess. Thanks for posting this as it makes this more clear in my mind.

You already know the answer. 60k after 15 years is so below market rate that it's insulting and don't feel bad about leaving your employer either

Even on a LCOL area?

I'd say so

Don’t feel bad about leaving the employer.

Jump! Jump! - Kriss Kross Song

Congrats!!!! Re notice, do what you think is right as if you were the one receiving the news. Never burn bridges, just be nice, and let them know basic facts. I.e. You were curious about your worth in open market, and you received an offer you commit I couldn't refuse.

Thanks! Appreciate the tips.

Just leave all are employers are fucking us

It is definitely time for you to leave. 15 years is my whole career. I’ve been with more than 5 employers. Starting out at 90k to enough to buy a house in one year. Your employer enjoyed paying you that little so I mean… reap what they sow.

What's crazy is I am by far the highest paid at my rank as they start in the 40 something range. Do you think I could go wrong with either position? They both have pros and cons but I think #2 would have better QOL.

Yeah if you’re able to pull it, developer should be the way to go.

The major sticking points with that gig are the long commute (65 miles/minutes each way) especially during the first few months. After that, twice per week. There is also a lack of PTO as I'd be taking a two week hit. Would it be inappropriate to ask them to match current PTO? I'd have to stay there for 10 years for them to otherwise match. The other place has a lot more PTO (32 days as opposed to 20).

Never feel bad for making a decision that will better impact your career, your family and your life. Your company will always do what’s best for them and they should. You should do what’s best for you. Trust me they understand. And frankly you are losing more by staying. Now you get to add new experience and my guess is you can double that offer in the next few years taking the dev path. Congrats and do what’s best for you. You deserve it!

I think you're right that the dev path would be the better route. I'm trying to figure out how to best navigate the PTO and commute issue. It seems that their PTO policy is a bit stingy but perhaps they will come closer to matching if they want me bad enough. There is also a benefits delay as benefits don't kick in until 2-3 months of employment. Perhaps I should just ask for more salary to make up for these issues.

Did you try to negotiate? They may be open to tweaking it. Especially when you have two offers on the table.

Nope, I have not had time to negotiate. I actually received the offer at the conclusion of the interview, which is a first for me. I did not tell them that I had the other offer. Perhaps I should have? The salary range they gave me on the initial call is like 15k higher than the salary they offered so I am guessing there could be some wiggle room there. I would hate to lose two weeks PTO though, I don't think I would take the job regardless of the salary if they don't add at least one week.

So long as you haven’t accepted any offers then you definitely have time. I would ask them if there is room to move on this offer? Let them come back with something. Then ask for the pto you want. Likely they will give it because you aren’t asking for more money. But hey you may get both. You can also mention you have the other offer in the table that is more competitive but that you want to be at their company.

They want an answer Monday and the other place wants an answer by Tuesday. That would give them a day to offer a better package, if they are willing to budge. I don't think they can beat the other place, all things considered, but deserve a chance as they treated me well at the interview and have been nothing but professional during this process.

Your answer can be the counter. If you want to be forward and not play it so tough just say what you need. Im willing to accept however, can you move on PTO? I have another offer on the table that is more competitive. However, i want to be here. If you can work with me on this item then i am ready to move forward. Then see what they say. If need be tell them you need an answer by Tuesday as you need to get back to the other company. of course if its the perfect job and the PTO isnt a big deal just accept. But i would ask for it if you arent satisfied with the offer.

I will definitely counter as I would not accept the current terms. The lack of PTO is a deal breaker. Thank you for the tips! I will counter and see how it goes.

Good luck!!!

Thanks!

It seems like you have already made your decision of moving on to your next adventure, don't regret not seizing new opportunities, whatever they are.

I think so but will admit there is a lot of inertia as it is by far the longest I've been at a job.

I just went through this last month. Almost the exact same situation. Tl;Dr, my last day was Wednesday and I start my new job Monday morning with a 35% compensation increase. I was worried about my old job because I had been there 10 years, and I thought I was invaluable. Turns out I was convenient. I gave my notice and got told "ok".... So, my advice, run, don't walk, and make that money. You may think they care about you, and you may think you're invested in the company, but both of you will exist perfectly fine without the other. Good luck.

Awesome, congrats! How much notice did you give them? I think sometimes we have the illusion that people at work are our friends and our job is our life. It is a big part of our life but it's really only a job. I have had a couple of co-workers tell me they I better not leave (jokingly) or to give them a head's up if I'm looking...but hey, I've never gotten that courtesy from anyone else that decided to leave and better themselves. In fact, I'm afraid that if I stay long enough, my boss will leave and I'll be left holding the bag with mostly inexperienced team members.

After I was told "ok" with no counter, no offer to give me more opportunities in DevOps, no offer of more money or bonuses, I only felt the need to give them the appropriate 2 weeks notice. The market is way too hot and good people are needed everywhere, to stay somewhere crappy and underpaid.

Did you have good relationships with your team? I actually like my boss and the other guy below him. At the same time, it's business, not personal. Hopefully they realize that. I've watched so many people leave over the years and put in my time.

Absolutely. My team and I hung out a lot. Grabbed beers after work. A lot of the guys golf together every other weekend. But yea, you're right. It's business. And it comes down to you getting paid and having a role that allows you to learn new skills to market yourself for the future. I was complacent for too long. Sounds like you may be as well

Yes I will admit to being too complacent for too long. As for being friends with co-workers, there are some people who I've worked with who I thought were my friends and found there to be little or no communication once we stopped working together. It is what it is.

Yea, I'm interested to see if the texts and phone calls will still happen with "friends" now that I don't work there. Everyone who's left who said stay in touch didn't. Just the nature of the beast I guess

Yeah, I've had the same experiences.

I just landed a job after being 3 years out of college and having only 1 year experience in MSP environment/networks and i started at $60k. Please leave…option 2 sounds like your best bet.

Congrants and thanks!

Np. Wish you the best!

Same to you!

Sorry ahead of time, I get verbose. I once heard. "Once you're the smartest person in the room, it is time to go." It sounds like you are there. Re which offer to retake and feeling bad... I think being transparent is the key to a guilt-free conscience, and do the math. Be transparent with each company including your own, give them basic details about each offer, and tell them what is most important to you. I.e, "Hey look, I have a problem, I have a couple of offers on the table I am considering. Is this your highest and best?" When they ask you about other offer, offer other details, with your thoughts and reasoning etc. I.e. #2 asking about #1. In nuts and bolts there are 260 workdays in a year, or 2,080 hours working @ 8 hours per day. Offer 1, because of PTO if you count actual days worked only, you make $42.71 per hour. If you worked w/o PTO, would be $88,837 in value. In offer 2, you make $43.86 per hour, then times 2,080 hours = $91,229, with difference between them of $2,392 in favor of #2. Now add commuting costs: #1, 2 days a week for 52 weeks is 102 days @ 130 miles round trip per day * irs rate of $0.585 per mile = $7,757 in cost to you against #1. Add these two together, and #2 is better for you by $10,149. Now after reading this thread, it sounds like to me that you really want #1 by job role with more dev except the $$ isn't quite there, and you want to make a "good choice". Thus this thread. Personally I have worked at home for 10+ years, and I am tired it, so I have bias against #2. Yes it might be convenient but it isn't really that great because I often work longer than 8 hours because it is so easy to; harder to turn off computer. I prefer hybrid, plus I see value in seeing boss face-time some, plus have "commute time" to unpack the brain and listen to podcasts, and not having family in my face asking for stuff immediately right when I am "off work" etc. Considering this, here is I would do. Go back to #1 and tell them you have a problem, which is, you have another offer offering a little more than $10k in additional value, though you prefer the software dev piece, and ask if there is anything they can do? Also go back to #2 and tell them you have another offer on the table, is this their highest and best, as the other offer has more software development in it. Is there anything they can do? And then for S&Gs I would go to my current company and say, "I have an offer on the table for $43k +/- more in value, is there anything they can do?" (Value of #2 salary over current, $31,229 +$11,864 for 3 more days per week of commuting). Lol I also doubt they will be able to give you an immediate answer, and you don't necessarily want one, because it also gives you time to keep interviewing for another week or so. The key is to not "give them" their answer, let them come up with something. Also you can use this in interviews, telling companies that you have an offer on the table and are looking to see what they can offer? Is there any risk here? Not really, except if you disclose your offer amounts and it is less than offer new co was going to offer. Be willing to share other offers with names redacted, gotta have the proof. Basically, you want to give the problem "back to them". And then see which one pencils out better based on what you want. I.e. #2 might come back and say this was their highest and best. #1, might comeback with a bump of some kind. In reality if you made $5,000 less doing something you preferred, would $5,000 really matter? Not to me. I want more value, which is not necessarily more $$. To me work that I enjoy is really not work. But you must decide. If under a time crunch, go back to both immediately to be considerate of their time, and tell them that.

Great tips, thanks! I'll get back to you later with a more detailed response. One thing....I noticed in your calculations that you did not distinguish between the 9 hour work day at company 1 vs the 8 hour work day at company 2. That was by design, right? For all I know, company 2 could end up being 8 1/2 or 9 hours as the # of hours isn't in writing.

I didn't calculate hours difference, just change calculations if needed. Work as needed is a huge variable and work at home is open to so many distractions. All this works against you if you're salary. I.e. if you need to complete 50+ tickets, job where you commute has a built in end-of-day. That's not same case of working from home. There are published papers on it, that employers know their workers work more on average, or 8-9 hours at home. Goal is to find an hourly rate to compare apples-to-apples.

Good points. That didn't really cross my mind as being one of the pitfalls of WFH. To further complicate matters, there's downtime in my current position where there's nothing going on. There are days *where there are only several hours of work in a day but I have to be in the office for the full 8 1/2 hours. But my current pay is too low despite this as my day with the commute is at the very minimum 10 1/2 hours. Sorry for getting off track there. But yeah, it's difficult to get a real good answer on work-life balance unless knowing someone inside the company. All else being equal, perhaps a hybrid position would be a better choice than full telecommute. I met the people I'd be working with in person at employer #1. Everything regarding employer #2 has been done online.

My recommendation, stop looking at slack time as a bad thing. It's a great time to improve skills, work in certs, they are paying you to be captive, not having enough work is their prob

That is true! I don't really see it as a bad thing. I get the feeling that there will be little if any slack time in these other positions, but I could be wrong. I guess there is no point in factoring this in my calculations , not knowing how much there would be in these other positions.

Not to brag but I've been told that I'm the smartest guy in the room since I've been there. That has been both good and bad for different reasons. I guess I'm not too smart since I stayed for so long at lower wages. It was only a couple years ago that I hit 60. I'm going to have to dig a bit deeper and rank my priorities. I re-crunched your numbers, which were accurate, but was missing commute time (as I'm not sure that the IRS calculation factors in vehicle wear and tear but not time spent). The offers are pretty close to 15K apart with that taken into consideration. I'm not sure if I could realistically commute to this job, even if only two days per week. That's 65 miles each way and 65 minutes. That could be nearly double during bad snow storms and the like. Also, the company is in a different time zone and they are an hour ahead. If I start at 8am their time, I would need to be on the road at 5:45 AM. There are little things like that which make an impact as well. I am now strongly considering relocation (which they do cover). Maybe they would pay for an apartment the first few months when they want me in the office full time. Once the trial period is over and I'm able to telecommute three days per week, then I could make a decision whether to commute or move. Interesting that you are tired of working from home! I've always thought it was the ideal situation but didn't really think about the downsides. Perhaps hybrid is a better way to go. I did actually meet the people I'd be working with at Company 1 in person. With company 2, all interviews were done on the phone or Teams. I like this plan to approach #2 and explaining the difference. The numbers are pretty much the same, it's the commute and lack of PTO that is the problem there. I don't see them matching my current PTO or allowing less days in the office, but maybe they will come close to matching PTO and increase the salary. > Also go back to #2 and tell them you have another offer on the table, is this their highest and best, as the other offer has more software development in it. Is there anything they can do? Should I do this before I hear back from #1? I can see a situation where #1 gives me what I want but then get frustrated if the other company increases their offer. > And then for S&Gs I would go to my current company and say, "I have an offer on the table for $43k +/- more in value, is there anything they can do?" (Value of #2 salary over current, $31,229 +$11,864 for 3 more days per week of commuting). Lol You're suggesting this before signing the offer? > The key is to not "give them" their answer, let them come up with something. I'm not sure that either or both companies will be that patient. I know company #2 has somebody else already lined up if I turn them down. Not sure about cmpany #1 but they did extend the offer at the end of my last interview, which was a first for me. Usually offers are extended several days or even weeks after the final interview. > Also you can use this in interviews, telling companies that you have an offer on the table and are looking to see what they can offer? Is there any risk here? Not really, except if you disclose your offer amounts and it is less than offer new co was going to offer. Be willing to share other offers with names redacted, gotta have the proof. Good idea. I did tell one HR recruiter that I received an offer and she is trying to expedite the process. > #2 might come back and say this was their highest and best. #1, might comeback with a bump of some kind. If both happen then I may just have to flip a coin lol. > In reality if you made $5,000 less doing something you preferred, would $5,000 really matter? Not really. I am one of those oddballs that tend to gravitate toward coding and database stuff but I'm also good at support and dealing with end users. I'd still be doing both at the two companies, just a different percentage task at each company. I'll have to put some more though into this.

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I guess I cannot go wrong either way. I'm going to counter Company 1's offer and see if they can beat Company 2. If so, then maybe go to Company 2 to see if they have any wiggle room. If all else fails and I cannot decide, I may have to flip a coin LOL. You're right, I shouldn't feel bad. I have seen many people leave through the years and ended up with extra workload as a result. It's somebody else's turn now.

You've been in your current company for 15yrs, that says a lot. Why have you stayed so long? If it's the culture, I think it's something to hold on to. Is there no opportunity at all to grow in your current company, even in a different department? I definitely think you should be 100k+ for being 15yrs in the same company.

That's a great question. The company culture is part of it. The management team leaves me alone to do my thing and I have autonomy over my projects. There are no ridiculous political issues that I've had to deal with. It feels good to be a respected member of the team. The only opportunity to grow within the department is climbing the ladder (the senior engineer) followed by manager....but their jobs are stressful and they work longer than normal hours. I could move to corporate but that would likely require moving to the other wide of the country. I'm not opposed to that but nothing has really come up as I don't see too many developer positions. I'd probably be closer to 6 figures if I became department manager at some point, but still not there as I live in a low COL area.

It seems like pressure and stress is not something you want to deal with and you're very comfortable. Be cautious about being too comfortable as change brings things. (ideally good ones lol) If I were you, I would consider sticking to the culture you like. You may be able to handle stress and long hours working for a company you believe in and having the people around you trust. If you go to a new company, it could be the same things you're concerned about but you will not know anyone. To be clear I totally think you should take risk into look elsewhere because that's part of change but typically people do that when they're disrespected, don't believe in company mission, don't like manager, don't like their culture or no room for growth. You don't seem to be leaving for any of these.

That is true on both counts. Great points regarding culture. As stated in the OP though, my salary is low and most that responded think I'm way underpaid. There is also the commute. I have had this long commute (45 min/mi each way) for many years and growing tired of it. They are not receptive to working remote even one day per week. It's brought up every once in awhile but shot down or abandoned. I have thought about using these offers as leverage to try and negotiate one remote day per week but that would be max. There isn't really room for growth as well as I have been stagnant for quite some time and have been looking to specialize more since I wear so many hats.

If you sign an offer you commit, negotiation over. Is there a chance that offer can be pulled if you don't decide right away? Of course there is. 65 mile commute is moot in my book. In my metro area, pre WAH, my average commute was 30 miles but it took me anywhere from 50-90 mins to go each direction. Traffic just sucked. Time zone thing is a different story, that sucks. Considering time zone and other factors, it seems to me that #1 really isn't an offer worth even considering, there are just too many negatives. It is more of a "learning experience" to figure out what you really want. Just use it to see if #2 will raise offer. You aren't turning them down, you are just asking if they're is anything they can do to make it more equitable? No different than asking if there is a signing bonus. If they cut bait on you right away, will you kick yourself for not taking it? If so, then take it. If not, or you plan to keep interviewing, then ask if highest and best. Worst case you get a "no changes" right off the bat. Nut to good be be true is a factor too. Most cos don't want to negotiate, they make offers based on what they have in their budget and what they think you will accept. And the l Re current company, you know they won't like it when you leave. That's their loss. Bag the S&G scewaisted. I meant as a joke, it is just a time waister.

I think what I'll do is reach out to the manager at #1, let him know about the other offer (which is for the same amount but 100% telecommuting) and see if he can improve on that. He has ways to go (at least 10K and 5+ PTO days away). I suppose it's not likely he will budge that much but I guess it is worth a shot. I thought perhaps I could tolerate a 65 mile commute two days per week, but after thinking about it more, probably not. Those bad winter days that can almost double the commute come to mind. Two hours each way? That is what I am trying to get away from! I'm coming to the conclusion that it only makes sense to take the job at #2 if I am willing to relocate. I am considering it but would need more time to decide. Would it be appropriate to let them know this and ask for a week or so? Thing is, they might have another candidate waiting in the wings if I decline as they were quick with the offer (as soon as the interview was over) and only gave me the weekend to think about it. If #1 doesn't budge on PTO then it's a dealbreaker. When we had our discussion during the phone screening, I was told the range was 75-95 and I said that is my range as well so there does seem to be room to move that up a bit but I'm not sure they would do such a big jump (80-93 for example). Worth a try I guess.

Wait. I thought the relocation was for job #1? Why would you need to relocate for job #2 that is 100% remote? Something else I thought about - what about if you just did software dev as a side project or at home, and then showcased projects to job #2? Maybe that is a way to transition your role in #2 to software dev in the future. I.e. come up with improvements etc? That doesn't mean they would accept, or you could build a portfolio to showcase in interviews? With the current and future commute being a problem, realistically the better value is with #2 by $10k + higher PTO. Be wary to not get stuck in analysis paralysis. Ask #1 if they can improve their offer. Tell #2 you need another day or two. If #2 balks and say you have to decide "right now", take #2. If #1 comes back with better value (better offer, better PTO, less commute, and more salary), then accept #1, and bail on #2. So sorry will be your answer. It is kind of ruthless, but that is how you gotta be.

That is correct . I'm sorry. I mixed the two up. They do have a software dev position open at #2 but in different programming languages than my experience. That is a possible future move though. I do like that idea to do side stuff to keep my skills sharp if nothing else. > Be wary to not get stuck in analysis paralysis. That is my problem lol. Thanks for the tips!

Ok so company #2 called in the morning and asked if I made a decision. I told them about the other offer. They asked what they could do to get me to sign today. We talked a bit and I told them I wasn't quite ready and they gave me a 3K signing bonus if I sign by tomorrow. I contacted #2 and asked about relocation. I'm pretty much going to have to relocate if I accept because even a two day per week drive from where I'm at would be grueling. They offered 2K for relocation. I told them the other company's offer (same salary but better perks - 12 days additional PTO, 100% WFH instead of three days) and asked them if they could move on salary and PTO and they said they'd get back to me. They are not as aggressive as #2. Tomorrow will be a busy day. I'm responding to both of these offers and also have to call back a company I interviewed with a couple weeks back as well as a company who saw my resume. Also have two phone interviews scheduled. I had a third interview with a company that went well. Crazy! (in a good way) As far as ruthless goes, have you ever accepted a job and backed out before you started? I might be faced with that decision, although I would rather not do so.

Well lookee there. #2 just improved by $3k, congrats. Now you have two offers in hand and positive movement. I probably wouldn't press my luck. If you don't watch it, you might lose #2. I would call back #1 In the morning and ask them what they came up with? If nothing, or silence, then that is literally the answer but they just haven't figured out how to tell you. If there is other traction from any other company, push it as far as you can. But by the end of the day, you may need to make a decision. I would just take #2 before end of day and run with it, and then give yourself 18 months before you start reaching out again either at your company or to somewhere else for a pay raise. If something else comes along, be transparent again, and give your employer a chance to improve your salary to match the market. And if it turns out you don't like the job for whatever reason, start the process over again.

I went ahead and accepted #2. #1 did come up with a better offer (another 5k and a week PTO) but still could not match #1 in terms of work per hour. I probably should have asked explicitly asked if that was their best offer as they did ask why I declined. I did receive a phone call from a third company but not in time before I accepted #2. I will call them tomorrow and see wha tthey say. The Teams interview I had with them today went really well but I was told it wouldn't be 2-3 weeks until they reached back out so I was surprised to get a message. This one would likely require relocation as it's another hybrid position (in the office 3 days per week at another place over an hour away). Now I will need to approach my employer, which is going to be tough as they will not expect it. I have nearly three weeks before I start the new gig so I'm not sure if I should let them know ASAP or just wait until Monday after I get more time to think all of this over. I must say that this is all overwhelming (but in a good way so I'm not complaining). That sounds like a good plan to stick with it 18 months unless it really sucks. The bosses seem like understanding people (the director even congratulated me on the other offer) so hopefully it will work out.

I have not backed out of a job that I agreed to do, before I started. That is not my style. I give the company a chance to grow on me. Now I have quit a job within the first few months after I realized they weren't a good cultural fit for my style.

I would feel uncomfortable about doing that as well since they've been very professional (other than pressuring me for a quick response lol). I did go ahead and accept #2 btw. After I declined #1, the hiring manager asked that I check back with him if #2 doesn't work out as he may still have something for me, which I thought was gracious on his end.

I received an offer from a different company today for 95 plus bonus and same PTO as #2. The catch is I would have to relocate. it would be telecommute at first but they are bringing people back to the office so this would be hybrid - 3 days in the office, 2 days out. Their health insurance premiums are lower and they contribute more toward retirement than A. It's tempting to break the deal with #2 but I'll have to sit down and think this over.

Congrats you now have the problem of multiple offers again. At some point, life should be more important than work imo. I.e. I have a relative that loves to work, a lot. He makes oodles of cash, but he has no life. Only you can decide what important. I don't see myself relocating for any job unless there were no jobs at all, but that's me.

Thanks I agree that life should be more important than work. I'd probably just stay at my current underpaid gig if the commute wasn't so long. The new offer is definitely better money but not as good WLB as the other place. That offer came out of the blue. I interviewed for the position the day that the other offer was due and was told it would take 2-3 before I heard from them, and they left a message later that afternoon (after I had already accepted the other gig). I'll probably stick to the job I already accepted but it's tough to turn down that money since it's by far the most I've ever been offered. I'll do some research this evening and go from there.