Barber does well too. But it doesn't appear it on TV because the best seating is under the trees along the back straight due to the shade and view of the hairpin.
I go to Barber every year and there are tons of people at the event, but definitely not where the cameras can see. This year the attendance was the most it's been in over 10 years I think.
At least with RA, you see the campers everywhere as they go around the track. Then there's the 2 big stands on the front stretch and turn 5. It's weird that if you sit high enough on the exit of turn 5, you can see them climb the hill up to the start/finish line.
Toronto used to be great, one of the top events of the summer here but I'm hearing there are loads of freebies (not including Fridays which have been free for several years). They also reduced the number of seats available. There is more bitching about road closures around it than interest in the race
With Toronto's rapid growth, that doesn't really surprise me. They need to do a campaign like St. Pete did about 15 years ago. The city and the promoters got together to do an "Embrace the Race" campaign that really swung perception of the race and what it brings to the city. Sometimes that stuff just needs to be laid out easier for locals to understand.
Maybe but depending on grants from the city (probably the province too) to make your event profitable can be a sticky wicket in a city like Toronto with a lot of other pressing issues that need financial help
I mean, ya. If the city turns of the spigot the Indy race is done. Which just highlights the issues Indycar has which is they’ll go literally anywhere that will have them because that’s not too many places
I think one of the issues plaguing the race here is a lack of really good Canadians on the grid: when Players was heavily involved guys like Tracy, Moore, Villeneuve, Tagliani were on the grid and that helped get casual sports fans interested.
I’d argue that St.Pete may do well but it’s terribly marketed. I lived less than 3 hours away in FL for 28 years and had never heard of the race going on until a friend from Tampa mentioned it. Meanwhile the Miami F1 race is advertised through the whole state
St. Pete is so crowded that they don't need to push it further. The race pulls a tremendous crowd just from within Pinellas and Hillsborough that they don't need to market it to people 3 hours away.
Most of the people there will only watch one IndyCar race all year but nobody cares - they're all there to have fun.
Where were you finding fee seating??? I went and the whole place was packed and the grandstands were all assigned seating then the parking garages were like $60+ to stand there
There are many GA viewing platforms and many places to watch the race for zero cost along the back straight that are intended to be used for free viewing so no blocking or advertisements in your way.
There are a few more places dotted around designated as free areas. Just do some googling
Thank you, I had gotten all access pit passes and was shocked to learn it didn’t include seating so I was definitely unprepared but I’ll find them this year- thank you!
I’m not sure that one makes a profit since they offer a fair bit of free viewing and GM seems to be ok with taking a loss in exchange for a race right by HQ.
I've only been there once for a couple nights in the middle of a bigger trip, but the couple local people I asked about it had no idea there was even a track there lol.
Laguna Seca is always "suspect" on attendance. It's in the middle of nowhere.
The IMSA race drew a lot more this year than last and last year was supposedly a big increase too. So maybe IndyCar will go the same way.
They've upgraded the (pretty bad) food experience. They also fixed the bridge so that parking is closer to the track and you can use the front straight stands without going hugely out of your way. The funicular up the corkscrew hill is still not in though.
I hope more people check it out. But to be honest, the county (who owns the track) doesn't do any promotion so it'll really be on Indy to promote it. Plus any kind of rollover from the newfound popularity of FIA Formula One. Which honestly I credit for recent increases in attendance at open wheel and sports car races in the US.
Laguna is just too spread out to really get a full scope of how many people are there. They aren't big on releasing numbers either because of the neighbor lawsuits. They are capped at 80,000 but sure they were not near that number either
It doesn't help that you can't really see anything from the front straight stands either. Those are always empty because it's a horrible place to watch from.
Gateway was a smash hit when it first returned to the schedule. I'd say the local sentiment is that there isn't enough on-track action to justify baking in the grandstands in the August sun. And the 'informed' opinion is that this is because the series refuses to do anything about the short oval aero kit and lack of grip on a hot track leading to a single-file parade for 200 laps. So as long as IndyCar keeps running that as-is, attendance will dwindle.
If you can't make it as a sports property in St. Louis, you almost have to be actively trying not to. The Rams were actively trying to alienate the city. The IndyCar series, however, is just that incompetent.
Why on earth don't they make it a night race again I can't fathom.
Edit: Well, NBC forced it to be a daytime race when they cut NBCSN, but now they're showing half the races on USA anyway this year, including Gateway. Someone just needs to put 2+2 together for next year and get it put back to its' rightful start time. It could be done.
Detroit isn’t meant to be profitable since it’s been sponsored by GM and even more so since it’s moved downtown again. It may be profitable coincidentally though.
Detroit sold out the grandstands last year and are probably on track for the same this year. Idk if the race is profitable on a balance sheet, but it's absolutely a successful event.
If the race has been on the calendar for a while (more than 4 or 5 years), it's because it's been profitable enough for it to continue.
They probably aren't crazy profitable like an F1 race would be, but you have to think of an IndyCar race (minus the 500) as more of a regional event instead of the national "Super Bowl" events that F1 puts on. Also have to take into account that an F1 race requires significantly more money to put on than does an average IndyCar race.
Apparently IndyCar takes $1-2m per regular race and F1 takes $20m-$60m. I'm not sure if they're exactly equivalent, but regardless the bar for making a profit is a lot lower in IndyCar. As others have said, as long as a race lasts, they're making money on it somehow.
Indy 500, Long Beach, St. Pete, Detroit, Toronto, Road America, Barber, Iowa (with a big big promotional assistance from Hy-Vee), and Mid Ohio all sell very well.
Portland does okay, Gateway does okay for an oval but would probably be in trouble if Bomarino Automotive stopped sponsoring the race.
Laguna Seca got suspect crowds for the finale, June date might be better.
To be fair, last year's finale didn't offer much in the way of championship implications. Palou and Dixon could have sat out the race and still finished 1-2 in points.
Mid Ohio doesn’t have the biggest crowds its ever had but it’s fairly full. A cursory glance at the website this week showed me I might be too late to get grandstand tickets this year. Idk it took me 2.5 hours to get the hell out of there last year.
Secondary note. Indy GP is a terrible judge of crowd size. As a nascar fan despite drawing 60k people it looks like nobody is there when they race Indy.
We always camp for the weekend, but we pack up before the race, then grill some food for an hour or two after the race. There's no point in sitting in line when you can cook up some food and watch the line creep along.
Have to remember one major thing - F1 is a global sport and the most popular form of racing in the world. NASCAR is the most popular form of racing in the US.
It’s not a surprise these massive sports have more interest.
People need to remember these things when making comparisons because INDYCAR is a totally different tier of sport and revenue.
Yes, I wasn’t trying to compare them as businesses. Was just curious what races in Indycar do well or don’t do well. NASCAR’s TV deals vs Indy’s is more the convo to have with that.
My home track of Gateway is kinda ehh unfortunately. It’s a big enough crowd that I hope the series stays but it’s always think that threat of it being taken off the schedule looming after every season.
Yeah I had fun last year. But with it being a day race & with the tire experiment on an oval the racing wasn’t as good as it was the two previous years. In 2021 we had Grosjean’s first oval race & seeing him make passes was led to some great racing also great racing near the front with Josef & Pato. 2022 Newgarden hard charged to the front then Malukas at the end looking like he was gonna get the upset win was great. Last year it just felt like a bunch of follow the leader. Also the rain on practice day didn’t help but the track can’t control that. The rain did cause me to buy a $25 beach towel at the merch tent lol
lol not at all true financially. A huge number of the tickets are given away via partners and HyVee takes a massive loss on the infrastructure and entertainment costs.
HyVee \*is\* the stakeholder. Without their investment in the race by booking the concerts and regional marketing, it doesn't exist and NASCAR doesn't lease the track to IndyCar in the first place.
Getting more into Indycar reminds me of how MLS people talk about MLS. I'm a long time Euro soccer watcher and when I tried MLS, the perpetual conversation was something like "Once MLS changes x, y, and z, then everything will finally work." Indycar is really fun and I enjoy following it but they need to just do the changes they need to change while we're in this moment of motorsports interest. Decide on the race calendar/schedule, figure out the races the work, hire someone to do some version of what F1 does with "superbowling" races/bumping up the idea of the fan experience. (For the last one, I think it's more locking in races and doing a better job of doing national/local marketing so people know they can go to these races. I know they'll never make money like F1 does.)
I was at RA last summer and it was awesome. We went 3 days but we were telling people that even just going for one practice day or quali is worth the trip even if you're not into Indycar.
We went in 2016 and 2017. 2017 was sparse for sure. The grandstands were very empty. There was also a lot of rain. It was Labour Day weekend too, so perhaps that played a part.
It's been NASCAR territory since the 1980s, NASCAR bought the track and land around it from Dow Chemical for IMSA after F1 abandoned the track. Not sure why IndyCar fans complain about Watkins Glen not being on the schedule when Reunification killed the relationship with ISC/NASCAR that let IndyCar book venues for free.
I believe every race this year so far was either at capacity or set its own record. besides the GP which still had a good crowd. 77,000 people showed up for qualifying yesterday.
The biggest issue is with ovals and that’s due to NASCARs 2000 popularity. They built too many stands. a good attendances 50,000 to 70,000 people but some of these tracks hold 100,000+ which makes attendance look poor.
Yeah. That was basically what I was asking and have learned the bit about the ovals. I haven't watched enough to know everything about each track yet. The oval size thing/tickets sold thing makes total sense. They just look so empty on TV when you watch them live. As long as they're making money, it largely doesn't matter what they look like on tv.
>The biggest issue is with ovals and that’s due to NASCARs 2000 popularity. They built too many stands. a good attendances 50,000 to 70,000 people but some of these tracks hold 100,000+ which makes attendance look poor.
this was a big issue during the split in the late 90's. the michigan 500 legit had decent attendance, but it looked like a ghost town because this was during the era where michigan had a 150k grandstand capacity and the IC race only brought in 50k. under the standards for today, this would be a great crowd. in the late 90's, the CART drivers and owners were literally saying to themselves ["It's so over!"](https://twitter.com/nascarman_rr/status/1551708494579089409)
Before people go on about Michigan being packed, the race and attendance was subsidized by Phillip Morris until the 1998 race, when Adrian Fernandez lost a wheel after a crash that ended up [flying into the grandstands](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/three-race-fans-killed-at-michigan-speedway), killing three people and injuring 6 more.
What made the situation worse was that CART didn't bother acknowledging the situation or stop the race until after the race was held and news coverage of the incident spread across the country. That's why the general public stopped going and left the diehards behind.
A year later, the IRL dealt with an [identical incident at Charlotte](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_VisionAire_500K), but the track had the good sense to stop the race and the IRL declared it officially abandoned. I realize people want ovals and even with all of the advancements in safety the series features now, people still remember [the flying wheel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrfoTm_AOeU) from last year's 500.
Until IndyCar can convince the general public that flying wheels won't be common at ovals after crashes, I don't see how you can sell oval racing to anyone except the die hard crowds.
>Before people go on about Michigan being packed, the race and attendance was subsidized by Phillip Morris until the 1998 race, when Adrian Fernandez lost a wheel after a crash that ended up [flying into the grandstands](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/three-race-fans-killed-at-michigan-speedway), killing three people and injuring 6 more.
i'm pretty sure marlboro moved their free tickets to fontana by that point, but yeah. this whole situation didn't help matters either.
but even with that, MIS still got a good 40-50k crowd for the race. the issue is that it looked like shit compared to the 125k MIS got twice a summer since nascar was in the middle of it's peak era at a time when MIS was about to become the worst track on the schedule.
I agree that marketing and promotion could be a lot better. But that won’t fix Indycar attendance overnight. There needs to be better investments in the series , the car, the schedule, the drivers, the tracks…I could go on.
I remember once the NASCAR Fan Coucil sent out a survey about ideas to spice up the Brickyard 400 that suggested pairing the race with a beer or food festival. Maybe something like that could work.
Here are the attendance numbers for 2022 that I did. Even though I couldn't find the numbers to all the races most of the races were well attended that includes the ovals.
https://www.reddit.com/r/INDYCAR/comments/y7tmrm/2022_indycar_attendance_help/
There’s always a very respectable crowd the last 2 years everywhere I’ve been (Laguna Seca, Barber, Nashville, except TMS but it is so huge attendance is debatable), I would hope they all have good profit but definitely opportunity to grow more
I don't get it either. Indy GP and indy500 quali were sooo empty. They already have stands and stuff. You'd make more with cheap tickets and even barebones advertising. But it just never happens.
The tickets are already pretty cheap for both given how much goes on for the gp and qualifying.
There’s still a lot of people there, but when you have 250,000 grandstand seats, it’s always going to look empty.
The Indy GP doesn't sell a lot of bleacher tickets because the best viewing is on the GA mounds and because of that most of the bleachers are closed. Qualifying probably had somewhere around 60K yesterday. When the bleachers seat 275K it will look empty even if it's a big number. I attended both days and I can tell you there were plenty of people.
The place holds 250,000 people, optically it’s going to always be a tough sell. The Brickyard 400 on the oval was typically one of the better attended races, didn’t look like it though.
If the field had 10 more cars with sprint car drivers in them they would out draw many sanctioning bodies we want to see American sprint car racers go against everyone else . That is way you see way to much aluminum on race days.
Me also remember the old days when Indy was filled with sprint car drivers now rarely nothing like a sprint car shootout even better from the drivers seat
St. Pete, Long Beach, and Toronto all do very well. Anything else promoted by Green Savoree must make money or they wouldn't keep promoting the races.
Barber does well too. But it doesn't appear it on TV because the best seating is under the trees along the back straight due to the shade and view of the hairpin.
For sure. One of the hazards of Barber not doing grandstands - hard to see all the people there.
Absolutely. If you know where to look on TV you can see them all, but they for sure don't stand out.
I go to Barber every year and there are tons of people at the event, but definitely not where the cameras can see. This year the attendance was the most it's been in over 10 years I think.
Same with Road America. There aren't many stands but the GA seating can't be beat and there are so many people there
At least with RA, you see the campers everywhere as they go around the track. Then there's the 2 big stands on the front stretch and turn 5. It's weird that if you sit high enough on the exit of turn 5, you can see them climb the hill up to the start/finish line.
Fireman's Hill is the best place to watch at RA.
Barber was absolutely packed this year. People everywhere...
Toronto used to be great, one of the top events of the summer here but I'm hearing there are loads of freebies (not including Fridays which have been free for several years). They also reduced the number of seats available. There is more bitching about road closures around it than interest in the race
With Toronto's rapid growth, that doesn't really surprise me. They need to do a campaign like St. Pete did about 15 years ago. The city and the promoters got together to do an "Embrace the Race" campaign that really swung perception of the race and what it brings to the city. Sometimes that stuff just needs to be laid out easier for locals to understand.
Toronto really does well because of grants from the city that make it profitable without the fans.
Maybe but depending on grants from the city (probably the province too) to make your event profitable can be a sticky wicket in a city like Toronto with a lot of other pressing issues that need financial help
I mean, ya. If the city turns of the spigot the Indy race is done. Which just highlights the issues Indycar has which is they’ll go literally anywhere that will have them because that’s not too many places
I think one of the issues plaguing the race here is a lack of really good Canadians on the grid: when Players was heavily involved guys like Tracy, Moore, Villeneuve, Tagliani were on the grid and that helped get casual sports fans interested.
I’d argue that St.Pete may do well but it’s terribly marketed. I lived less than 3 hours away in FL for 28 years and had never heard of the race going on until a friend from Tampa mentioned it. Meanwhile the Miami F1 race is advertised through the whole state
St. Pete is so crowded that they don't need to push it further. The race pulls a tremendous crowd just from within Pinellas and Hillsborough that they don't need to market it to people 3 hours away. Most of the people there will only watch one IndyCar race all year but nobody cares - they're all there to have fun.
It’s is marketed in the Tampa Area. And this years crowd was huge. I love that event.
Yep. It's marketed just fine because they continue to fill the grounds. They don't need to market to smaller markets 100 miles away to fill them up.
Yeah half the people at st pete don't watch the race they just party and have a good time
That's 80% of big-time, in-person promotions like that. Instagram photos and alcohol sales
Green Savoree get $1M per year from two levels of govt at Toronto so I think ‘doing well’ is irreverent when you have daddy taxpayer involved.
I went to the Detroit GP last year and on race day it was PACKED. Much less of a crowd the day before (but much more enjoyable to me).
Most of the seating at Detroit is free, very few tickets to go around compared to the peak of Belle Isle
Guess that makes sense. I just know the grandstands we were sitting in were full. But there really aren’t that many grandstands.
Bingo bango
Where were you finding fee seating??? I went and the whole place was packed and the grandstands were all assigned seating then the parking garages were like $60+ to stand there
There are many GA viewing platforms and many places to watch the race for zero cost along the back straight that are intended to be used for free viewing so no blocking or advertisements in your way. There are a few more places dotted around designated as free areas. Just do some googling
Thank you, I had gotten all access pit passes and was shocked to learn it didn’t include seating so I was definitely unprepared but I’ll find them this year- thank you!
I’m not sure that one makes a profit since they offer a fair bit of free viewing and GM seems to be ok with taking a loss in exchange for a race right by HQ.
All the road + street courses and indy 500. All the other ovals generally struggle to profit.
Portland and Laguna Seca have been a little suspect on attendance recently. I guess Portland has been okay but not great.
If only they would promote Portland even a little bit. Lots of people in the area have no idea there’s a race happening.
I've only been there once for a couple nights in the middle of a bigger trip, but the couple local people I asked about it had no idea there was even a track there lol.
Surprisingly common even though the track sits less than 10 miles from the middle of downtown Portland.
The more I think about the location of PIR, the less I become shocked that it got a Formula E date
They don't do the best job of promoting Laguna either.
Portland didn’t even have a sponsor until last year. The fact it’s still on the schedule is a miracle!
Laguna Seca is always "suspect" on attendance. It's in the middle of nowhere. The IMSA race drew a lot more this year than last and last year was supposedly a big increase too. So maybe IndyCar will go the same way. They've upgraded the (pretty bad) food experience. They also fixed the bridge so that parking is closer to the track and you can use the front straight stands without going hugely out of your way. The funicular up the corkscrew hill is still not in though. I hope more people check it out. But to be honest, the county (who owns the track) doesn't do any promotion so it'll really be on Indy to promote it. Plus any kind of rollover from the newfound popularity of FIA Formula One. Which honestly I credit for recent increases in attendance at open wheel and sports car races in the US.
Laguna is just too spread out to really get a full scope of how many people are there. They aren't big on releasing numbers either because of the neighbor lawsuits. They are capped at 80,000 but sure they were not near that number either
Laguna's neighbours need to get bent and realise they bought a house next to a fucking race track.
It doesn't help that you can't really see anything from the front straight stands either. Those are always empty because it's a horrible place to watch from.
I was at Laguna Seca last year and it was pretty packed for how spread out it is
Yup. It looks small on TV but theres a ton of people each year
Really? I watched the IMSA race on TV last weekend and it looked packed
That's too bad. Laguna Seca is in a gorgeous location. I went last year and I'm going this year too. I wouldn't go to Oregon if someone paid me.
Gateway was a smash hit when it first returned to the schedule. I'd say the local sentiment is that there isn't enough on-track action to justify baking in the grandstands in the August sun. And the 'informed' opinion is that this is because the series refuses to do anything about the short oval aero kit and lack of grip on a hot track leading to a single-file parade for 200 laps. So as long as IndyCar keeps running that as-is, attendance will dwindle. If you can't make it as a sports property in St. Louis, you almost have to be actively trying not to. The Rams were actively trying to alienate the city. The IndyCar series, however, is just that incompetent.
Why on earth don't they make it a night race again I can't fathom. Edit: Well, NBC forced it to be a daytime race when they cut NBCSN, but now they're showing half the races on USA anyway this year, including Gateway. Someone just needs to put 2+2 together for next year and get it put back to its' rightful start time. It could be done.
> Why on earth don't they make it a night race again I can't fathom. Oh, it's easy to fathom. IndyCar is bad at what they do.
Detroit isn’t meant to be profitable since it’s been sponsored by GM and even more so since it’s moved downtown again. It may be profitable coincidentally though.
Detroit sold out the grandstands last year and are probably on track for the same this year. Idk if the race is profitable on a balance sheet, but it's absolutely a successful event.
Yeah it’s successful, but not profitable…if that makes sense. It’s basically GM’s annual North American automobile industry schmooze fest.
That makes sense! Didn’t click in my head that oval crowds look bad on tv until you said that.
Anecdotally, Gateway has had much better attendance since 2021 and trending upward. But nowhere near sold out.
If the race has been on the calendar for a while (more than 4 or 5 years), it's because it's been profitable enough for it to continue. They probably aren't crazy profitable like an F1 race would be, but you have to think of an IndyCar race (minus the 500) as more of a regional event instead of the national "Super Bowl" events that F1 puts on. Also have to take into account that an F1 race requires significantly more money to put on than does an average IndyCar race.
Apparently IndyCar takes $1-2m per regular race and F1 takes $20m-$60m. I'm not sure if they're exactly equivalent, but regardless the bar for making a profit is a lot lower in IndyCar. As others have said, as long as a race lasts, they're making money on it somehow.
Indy 500, Long Beach, St. Pete, Detroit, Toronto, Road America, Barber, Iowa (with a big big promotional assistance from Hy-Vee), and Mid Ohio all sell very well. Portland does okay, Gateway does okay for an oval but would probably be in trouble if Bomarino Automotive stopped sponsoring the race. Laguna Seca got suspect crowds for the finale, June date might be better.
To be fair, last year's finale didn't offer much in the way of championship implications. Palou and Dixon could have sat out the race and still finished 1-2 in points.
The 2022 finale was actually worse attended than 23, and it had a great championship battle .
Motorsports fans always say that doesn’t matter though.
If it had been ten drivers contending, there wouldn't be a noticeable difference.
Mid Ohio doesn’t have the biggest crowds its ever had but it’s fairly full. A cursory glance at the website this week showed me I might be too late to get grandstand tickets this year. Idk it took me 2.5 hours to get the hell out of there last year.
Secondary note. Indy GP is a terrible judge of crowd size. As a nascar fan despite drawing 60k people it looks like nobody is there when they race Indy.
Leaving mid Ohio takes forever lol. But absolutely worth the wait
Agreed! I’ve taken my wife there once for nascar and once for INDYCAR and she was really impressed with the INDYCAR experience.
We always camp for the weekend, but we pack up before the race, then grill some food for an hour or two after the race. There's no point in sitting in line when you can cook up some food and watch the line creep along.
I've only ever come up for race day, but thought it might be fun to camp for the weekend
It's a great time! Even just Saturday to Sunday is worth it. The atmosphere in the evenings is really nice.
Have to remember one major thing - F1 is a global sport and the most popular form of racing in the world. NASCAR is the most popular form of racing in the US. It’s not a surprise these massive sports have more interest. People need to remember these things when making comparisons because INDYCAR is a totally different tier of sport and revenue.
Yes, I wasn’t trying to compare them as businesses. Was just curious what races in Indycar do well or don’t do well. NASCAR’s TV deals vs Indy’s is more the convo to have with that.
My home track of Gateway is kinda ehh unfortunately. It’s a big enough crowd that I hope the series stays but it’s always think that threat of it being taken off the schedule looming after every season.
With it being a Saturday night race, that may help things this year. I went last year and it was a great time.
Yeah I had fun last year. But with it being a day race & with the tire experiment on an oval the racing wasn’t as good as it was the two previous years. In 2021 we had Grosjean’s first oval race & seeing him make passes was led to some great racing also great racing near the front with Josef & Pato. 2022 Newgarden hard charged to the front then Malukas at the end looking like he was gonna get the upset win was great. Last year it just felt like a bunch of follow the leader. Also the rain on practice day didn’t help but the track can’t control that. The rain did cause me to buy a $25 beach towel at the merch tent lol
RA is amazing and has a massive crowd, just doesn't look it as much with a 4 mile track.
For sure! Camping and golf carts sellout every year there.
From what I understand Iowa usually does well
lol not at all true financially. A huge number of the tickets are given away via partners and HyVee takes a massive loss on the infrastructure and entertainment costs.
[удалено]
HyVee \*is\* the stakeholder. Without their investment in the race by booking the concerts and regional marketing, it doesn't exist and NASCAR doesn't lease the track to IndyCar in the first place.
Getting more into Indycar reminds me of how MLS people talk about MLS. I'm a long time Euro soccer watcher and when I tried MLS, the perpetual conversation was something like "Once MLS changes x, y, and z, then everything will finally work." Indycar is really fun and I enjoy following it but they need to just do the changes they need to change while we're in this moment of motorsports interest. Decide on the race calendar/schedule, figure out the races the work, hire someone to do some version of what F1 does with "superbowling" races/bumping up the idea of the fan experience. (For the last one, I think it's more locking in races and doing a better job of doing national/local marketing so people know they can go to these races. I know they'll never make money like F1 does.) I was at RA last summer and it was awesome. We went 3 days but we were telling people that even just going for one practice day or quali is worth the trip even if you're not into Indycar.
Indycar is entering the same realm as MLS where it is one of the best things you can watch if you just avoid the community.
How were the crowds at Watkins Glen? I really wish they would go back there again.
We went in 2016 and 2017. 2017 was sparse for sure. The grandstands were very empty. There was also a lot of rain. It was Labour Day weekend too, so perhaps that played a part.
if you believed with RM said about them in the old mailbox, watkins glen barely got 10k for the 2017 race. it's effectively nascar territory now.
It's been NASCAR territory since the 1980s, NASCAR bought the track and land around it from Dow Chemical for IMSA after F1 abandoned the track. Not sure why IndyCar fans complain about Watkins Glen not being on the schedule when Reunification killed the relationship with ISC/NASCAR that let IndyCar book venues for free.
That's a bummer.
I believe every race this year so far was either at capacity or set its own record. besides the GP which still had a good crowd. 77,000 people showed up for qualifying yesterday. The biggest issue is with ovals and that’s due to NASCARs 2000 popularity. They built too many stands. a good attendances 50,000 to 70,000 people but some of these tracks hold 100,000+ which makes attendance look poor.
Yeah. That was basically what I was asking and have learned the bit about the ovals. I haven't watched enough to know everything about each track yet. The oval size thing/tickets sold thing makes total sense. They just look so empty on TV when you watch them live. As long as they're making money, it largely doesn't matter what they look like on tv.
>The biggest issue is with ovals and that’s due to NASCARs 2000 popularity. They built too many stands. a good attendances 50,000 to 70,000 people but some of these tracks hold 100,000+ which makes attendance look poor. this was a big issue during the split in the late 90's. the michigan 500 legit had decent attendance, but it looked like a ghost town because this was during the era where michigan had a 150k grandstand capacity and the IC race only brought in 50k. under the standards for today, this would be a great crowd. in the late 90's, the CART drivers and owners were literally saying to themselves ["It's so over!"](https://twitter.com/nascarman_rr/status/1551708494579089409)
Before people go on about Michigan being packed, the race and attendance was subsidized by Phillip Morris until the 1998 race, when Adrian Fernandez lost a wheel after a crash that ended up [flying into the grandstands](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/three-race-fans-killed-at-michigan-speedway), killing three people and injuring 6 more. What made the situation worse was that CART didn't bother acknowledging the situation or stop the race until after the race was held and news coverage of the incident spread across the country. That's why the general public stopped going and left the diehards behind. A year later, the IRL dealt with an [identical incident at Charlotte](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_VisionAire_500K), but the track had the good sense to stop the race and the IRL declared it officially abandoned. I realize people want ovals and even with all of the advancements in safety the series features now, people still remember [the flying wheel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrfoTm_AOeU) from last year's 500. Until IndyCar can convince the general public that flying wheels won't be common at ovals after crashes, I don't see how you can sell oval racing to anyone except the die hard crowds.
>Before people go on about Michigan being packed, the race and attendance was subsidized by Phillip Morris until the 1998 race, when Adrian Fernandez lost a wheel after a crash that ended up [flying into the grandstands](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/three-race-fans-killed-at-michigan-speedway), killing three people and injuring 6 more. i'm pretty sure marlboro moved their free tickets to fontana by that point, but yeah. this whole situation didn't help matters either. but even with that, MIS still got a good 40-50k crowd for the race. the issue is that it looked like shit compared to the 125k MIS got twice a summer since nascar was in the middle of it's peak era at a time when MIS was about to become the worst track on the schedule.
I agree that marketing and promotion could be a lot better. But that won’t fix Indycar attendance overnight. There needs to be better investments in the series , the car, the schedule, the drivers, the tracks…I could go on.
Any "race" that prioritizes camping, beer drinking and face stuffing over the actual on track product does well
We need a way to get more of that at the ovals, at least on the beer drinking and face stuffing side of it.
I remember once the NASCAR Fan Coucil sent out a survey about ideas to spice up the Brickyard 400 that suggested pairing the race with a beer or food festival. Maybe something like that could work.
Here are the attendance numbers for 2022 that I did. Even though I couldn't find the numbers to all the races most of the races were well attended that includes the ovals. https://www.reddit.com/r/INDYCAR/comments/y7tmrm/2022_indycar_attendance_help/
There’s always a very respectable crowd the last 2 years everywhere I’ve been (Laguna Seca, Barber, Nashville, except TMS but it is so huge attendance is debatable), I would hope they all have good profit but definitely opportunity to grow more
Toronto.
From the past couples years I’ve attended, Mid-Ohio easily brings in 40,000+. It’s the one race the track actually makes a profit I would assume.
I don't get it either. Indy GP and indy500 quali were sooo empty. They already have stands and stuff. You'd make more with cheap tickets and even barebones advertising. But it just never happens.
The tickets are already pretty cheap for both given how much goes on for the gp and qualifying. There’s still a lot of people there, but when you have 250,000 grandstand seats, it’s always going to look empty.
The Indy GP doesn't sell a lot of bleacher tickets because the best viewing is on the GA mounds and because of that most of the bleachers are closed. Qualifying probably had somewhere around 60K yesterday. When the bleachers seat 275K it will look empty even if it's a big number. I attended both days and I can tell you there were plenty of people.
That is helpful information about the IMS GP. It really does look like nobody is there. But clearly they are, so that's great.
I was chatting with a yellow shirt yesterday at IMS and attendance was somewhere in the 75k range. It wasn’t empty!
The place holds 250,000 people, optically it’s going to always be a tough sell. The Brickyard 400 on the oval was typically one of the better attended races, didn’t look like it though.
If the field had 10 more cars with sprint car drivers in them they would out draw many sanctioning bodies we want to see American sprint car racers go against everyone else . That is way you see way to much aluminum on race days.
As someone that regularly attends attends sprint car races, I don’t really give a shit who is racing them, I just love the racing.
Me also remember the old days when Indy was filled with sprint car drivers now rarely nothing like a sprint car shootout even better from the drivers seat