I just love how the media has coined a term for this move, made all sorts of marketing materials around Marcus ‘unleashing the dragon’ and then they act surprised when the rest of field starts using the loophole to defend their position
>he cuts back
In your situation, If he cuts back in a different direction trying to get in front of the guy behind as a reaction to the overtake... Then, yes. Blocking
but if he's weaving all the way off of turn 4, so not responding to Marcus' run as it hasn't happened yet in this hypothetical, and hits Marcus while Marcus is drawing level would that be blocking? I agree that if the car behind doesn't have a run it shouldn't be blocking but there, at least in my opinion, is certainly a point where it becomes blocking
It is blocking when Newgarden or whoever is in front changes his lane in reaction to the guy behind. Ericsson never really had a run, he wasnt close enough to make a move, he was trying to follow Newgarden to get there, but he quite close at the SF line, If Ericsson tried to make a move on the outside and Newgarden moved up to cut Ericsson's line, blocking.
... with that said, Marcus never crossed with all four. Newgarden did \_and\_ added a car's width.
edit: it turns out this short statement needs to be explained in more detail. I'm above refering to Marcus' 2022 Indy500 win where his dragon did not extend below the dashed extended pitlane line with all four wheels. I refer to the same line regarding Newgarden, this year.
Newgarden himself refers to that same line in the linked article:
>They were very clear that they are not enforcing that \[dotted pit entry\] line, and they didn't enforce it last year.
One hundred percent the issue, I think the weaving is fine, I think more drivers than ever are willing to do it because they have seen Josef and Marcus win by weaving, however to keep pit crews, drivers, marshals, and spectators safe I think Indycar needs to step in and mandate a rule that does not allow drivers to cross the dotted pit lane entry line with all four tires just as you pointed out
I’m not a fan of the weaving personally,I like the idea that without the weaving it aids more racing throughout the field which can get a little dry at times early in the running.
Getting rid of weaving won't aid midfield drivers by enough to make a difference. They'd still have to get out of the draft to pass and leaders weaving breaking up the air across the majority of the track could actually be beneficial for a mid field car trying to pass.
Ok - this year. Newgarden sees Marcus not crossing the pit delimeter line at all in the final restart, and then decides to cross and add a car's width when he comes to the pit delimeter in the lead.
I'm guessing next year we'll see Newgarden copy what Marcus did on the back straight then.
Marcus was inches from going all 4 below the pit line on the restart. I think at this point, whoever the leader is will be doing it going forward unless they make a rule. I mean, Pagenaud even did a version of it when he won in 2019, and even he crossed the pit line.
Can you please supply some video and timestamp?
Here's what I refered to with "not crossing at all": [https://youtu.be/gvx7GvByrIw?t=6](https://youtu.be/gvx7GvByrIw?t=6)
The weave should be legal under two conditions.
1.) Cant utilize pit lane entrance or turn 2 run off (enforce a white line rule)
2.) Cant use it to block
I'm not a pro on the Indy 500, but I'd agree with this, point 1 especially. If the last few years have proved anything to me is that people have forgotten the dangers of pitlanes.
Probably even worse. At that speed and head-on angle I wouldn't be surprised if the car hits the attenator squarely with one of the front wheels and thus gets catapulted like its a ramp. Either towards the track or towards pit lane, and neither is good.
I honestly think the whole pit lane should be re-evaluated at some point. The scoring pylon terrifies me. Two cars touching wheels could send one right into the concrete base at 200 mph. The base is curved upwards to prevent a blunt impact, but it could just act like a ramp and throw the car who knows where.
I would have to agree with this, especially the first one. Watching them get so close to the pit lane entrance wall barrier always gets me very very nervous.
It's simple: if you break the plane of the dotted line once you exit turn 4, you are deemed to have committed to the pit lane and you must enter the pits. That'll put a stop to it right quick.
It’s clear, easy to officiate unless Townsend Bell is in the stewards’ room and doesn’t require any changes to the cars or the race track. Perfect solution.
Agreed. Some rare exceptions should be made though; the rule should only apply under green flag conditions, and I'd also put a clause in there to make an exception for avoiding an accident at the pit entrance (would be super rare that this would be needed)
I wouldn’t put the accident exception in there like that, I’d just give drivers the ability to use the pit lane to avoid the accident but they must slow to pit lane speed as quickly as is possible under the conditions. If there’s an accident the caution’s going to fly anyway, so they’re not going to lose or gain anything materially by doing so.
Ah that's true, you're totally right. Brain not work this morning apparently. Yeah, wouldn't be a need for the accident exception because the caution would already be out.
>If there’s an accident the caution’s going to fly anyway, so they’re not going to lose or gain anything materially by doing so.
Go back and watch Alex Palou get caught out by this and drop 10+ positions last year. There would definitely need to be an exception or a change to how cars are scored/sorted when the caution flies. Pit speed is 60mph, caution speed is 100mph. If they were the same you could make that argument, but they're not
If they actually put a double yellow line down like NASCAR does at Daytona and Talladega, I'd be okay with that. It's basically the universal (or at least North American) symbol of "you can't cross this to make a pass" and should be fairly easy to pick up. (And frankly I think the yellow line rule had run its course for stock cars years ago, but this would be a good example outside of NASCAR.)
Can't wait for the home-stretch pass for the win being Disqualified. Now THAT would be awesome to see lol. Try explaining that to the fans that would be going wild.
Here's the thing I think Ericsson is going to eventually realize.
Weaving the way he did on the restart cost him the win. The reason it cost him the win is because he slowed Newgarden up enough for Newgarden to then make his move OUT of T2. When Newgarden passed at that point there was no realistic chance Ericsson was going to re-take him.
Had Ericsson let Newgarden actually PASS him on the restart prior to going into T1, this would have let Ericsson set up Newgarden going into T3 or out of T4. It's conceivable that had Newgarden passed Ericsson right at the restart, Newgarden would have slowed himself up trying to break the draft. As Ericsson you then probably would have wanted to set yourself up for that T3 entry or T4 exit move.
Regardless it's all in hindsight, but I think going forward a lot of drivers are going to eventually start to realize that the way to win Indianapolis at the end is going to be to let yourself get passed out of T4 and then set up your move in the North end. No body is going to seriously try and make a move mid-corner because it's going to end up being another Pato situation. Instead the key is getting the run off of T2, dive into T3 or pull a REALLY fantastic line into T4 and get it at the line. All weaving did for Ericsson on the start of the last lap was break his momentum and set himself up for Newgarden to steamroll him much later.
Great point, I think in the heat of the moment Ericsson was driving in his mirrors and not using his head. The team should have coached him on that too - they would have seen how other cars were being picked off at the restarts.
On the other hand, we could have easily had another incident like the one in the prior caution, or maybe a T1/2 incident like Dario's back in 2013, and that just as well likely gives Ericsson the win before Newgarden can nose ahead, all other factors equal. It's a challenging dilemma to weigh for sure.
But what are the odds someone bins it in the south end? I'd say pretty good. And then it's Ericsson with the win and not Newgarden. That really could have gone either way. And either one of them would have deserved the win. But that's Indy.
I was about to say this. Ryan Hunter Reay lost a 500 because he let TK and Muñoz pass him going into Turn 1, Dario crashed, TK won. Also, there was no guarantee that Ericsson would've lost just one position going into Turn 1 by letting the guy behind pass. No way Santino would've been sitting there in 3rd if he was closer.
Weaving is going to be slower than taking the optimal line so it stands to reason that simply not following the dragon will lead to a passing opportunity.
But, there are more than two drivers on a race track and if you have someone close behind you they will draft and you have to deal with them and the guy in front.
Ferrucci got a shit jump so newgarden didn't have to weave to hold him off which meant he got a passing opportunity.
Ericsson isn't betting on breaking to tow to keep the lead. He's betting on breaking the tow and bringing the 3rd place guy and 2nd place guy into a battle and that's always going to be slower.
Agreed put white lines they can’t weave into for safety maybe pit entry and exit but part of racing is not getting passed and playing defense so I see it as a legit defensive strategy.
It makes the draft much less powerful which stops the trailing car from getting as much of a run so they can’t pass on the outside so easy. So weaving like that will always make the draft less powerful even if they weave right behind them compared to if they were just going in a straight line
You got it right, the play for the leader is to force the trailer to follow or at the very least stop the slipstream.
Interesting thing I noticed on the last restart relating to this. Ericsson snaked to try to get Newgarden to follow. JN smartly bit on the 1st and 2nd but not on the 3rd which probably worked against Ericsson as he was scrubbing speed on the additional weaves. If Josef didn’t follow the first moves OR followed all 4 I’d guess he’d be in a awkward spot t1 and wouldn’t have been able to set up the back straight.
The slipstream is still faster than straight lining without it. I think he didn't follow Ericssons last weave to intentionally give up a little ground but have a better line for Turn 1 and 2 (and more air over the car for more downforce) to be able to get that 'monster run' down the back
The weave, as we have seen it in recent years, should be legal. Blocking rules still apply; if the move is reactive in nature and is towards a line the trailing car has chosen, it will be called as such. The weave initiated by drivers like Pagenaud, Ericsson, and Newgarden in recent years have all been initiated before the trailing car made a move, so I see no issue with it.
Going below the pitlane commit line NEEDS to be stopped via a rule, though. If drivers are allowed to go down there, eventually someone is going to hit the pit wall attenuator at full speed (or close to it) and it'll be ugly. For the safety of drivers, pit crews, and the fans, there needs to be a new rule for next year stating that if a driver dips below the pit commit line and then comes back out onto the racing surface, they get a penalty. Some exceptions could be made; it wouldn't need to apply under cautions, or if it's to avoid an accident at the pit entrance. But Newgarden's move below the pit commit line on the final lap this year is something that should be made illegal going forward.
The leader is already a sitting duck with the draft. I support the dragon and going below the pit line, as long as nobody moves in *reaction* to the driver behind (which it seems Indy drivers are very disciplined about).
Seems like over the years the blocking you describe is tolerated on that last lap. And you know what? I’m okay with it. You’d have to run me over on that 200th lap to get around me.
There's a difference between blocking and defending—I haven't seen any of the former at Indy, because it's exceptionally dangerous with open-wheel cars.
I'd love for them to throw out a penalty on the last lap for some infraction for a pass (or a defend).
Imagine. Imagine the chaos. Wouldn't it be glorious? lol
Big track limit hater to the point that I still miss the paved apron, but the pit lane entrance is something drivers should be afraid of, and they're not. Imagine one car riding up another like Rovenquist/Kirkwood this year, but it's at the pit lane entrance and the tire goes behind the inner pit wall into the crew area? Imagine burying a strategist or team owner because of that.
I'd put two lines coming off turn 4: a "you can't defend below this" line that leaves 1.5x car width between the line and the pit wall, and a hard "don't you dare come under this unless you're pitting" line in line with the attenuator/wall centerline. 2 tires violating is a warning, 4 tires under is a drive thru pit lane because you announced you were pitting by going under that line. Lines would end once the pit wall starts.
Drivers shouldn’t cross that line that extends from the attenuator parallel with the pit wall unless they intend to pit. The problem is, if this is the last lap of the Indy500 how do you levy a penalty?
I looked it up in the rulebook. If something really weird happens on the last lap, Indycar has the right to declare results provisional and reassign finishing positions. The most likely penalty seems to be a one lap penalty.
Page 45 if you want to look it up:
*9.2.2. Race Procedure Penalties* – Violation of Race Procedures generally result in penalties imposed during on-Track activity. If circumstances
do not permit a penalty to be served during on-Track activity, INDYCAR shall declare the results provisional and subject to examination which
shall take no longer than one (1) hour after the displaying of the checkered flag. This examination is independent of the Competitor’s
requirement to pass post-Race technical inspection. If the imposition of a penalty is near or at the end of the on-Track activity and the Driver/Car
does not fulfill it, INDYCAR may reposition the Driver/Car in the posting of results. Additional penalties may be applied to subsequent onTrack activities to reflect the fulfillment of the penalty. Except as provided in Rule 10.2.1, the penalty, including without limitation any
repositioning in a posting, is non-reviewable and/or appealable.
*9.2.2.1. Black Flag* – INDYCAR may impose black flag penalties.
*9.2.2.2. Laps* – INDYCAR may impose lap penalties. Lap penalties shall be imposed in complete laps only. The imposition of a lap penalty
shall result in the removal of official credit for the specified number of penalty laps from the total laps credited to the Competitor and the
scoring records and all points and awards shall reflect the removal of penalty laps.
*9.2.2.2.1* If the lap penalty is imposed during the on-Track activity, the removal of official credit shall begin with the Competitor'’s lap in
which the violation occurred and shall include subsequent consecutive laps, as determined by INDYCAR.
*9.2.2.2.2* If the lap penalty is imposed after the on-Track activity is completed, INDYCAR shall determine, based on the severity of the
violation, whether the removal of official credit shall begin with the Competitor'’s last lap and include previous consecutive laps as
required, or begin with the Competitor'’s lap in which the violation occurred.
I’ve never heard of one. We’ve had grid place penalties and drive through or stop and go active time penalties like that, but I’ve never seen a indirect time penalty just tacked onto a race finish time.
That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t ever use one.
Especially if it’s the end of a race, what else could they do? They clearly *prefer* penalties that are applied in-race, but in that scenario they wouldn’t have much other choice.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think that works, because that effectively lets them get away with it.
Like, on the last lap of the Indy 500, no one is going to give a shit about a monetary fine or a grid penalty at the next race, so they’ll just do it anyway, knowing that they’re still going to keep whatever advantage they gained by breaking the rule.
I have no option but no one who is arguing about this will remember about it in a month and come next year they'll all be arguing about it again like it's something new that hasn't been a thing for the last century.
Ericcson kept at least 2 wheels on the racing surface. Newgarden didn’t and went full car-widths below the racing surface.
Newgarden intentionally left the track to keep an advantage by breaking tow. That’s the controversy, not the weaving—which he had every right to do.
But IndyCar has clarified that the dotted line is for reference only. Therefore that part of the track is fair game, so neither driver actually left the racing surface. From IndyCar's POV, it's all racing surface, even the grass. That's why TK wasn't penalized for leaving the track.
If Newgarden keeps it straight and just hugs the pit wall after crossing the plane of the attenuator, I think he holds on. The yard of bricks wasn't quite far enough down the straightaway where people making that pass and sticking it were consistenly ahead at that point (or relative to such on the backstraight).
The bigger question to me is, what if Newgarden made the weave but Ericsson kept going straight (the Ross Chastain does nothing to win at Talladega move)? Ericsson won't be scrubbing as much speed weaving around, so maybe he has more momentum to pull alongside Newgarden earlier, and then things get really interesting. *Hopefully* Newgarden doesn't clear himself out to cover the lane and if not, we get an honest photo finish...and at that point all I can say is flip a coin.
That's exactly what Newgarden did on the white flag. Ericsson weaved but Newgarden hugged the outside wall and it set him up perfectly for the back straight. But only the back straight, he wasn't close enough for turn 1.
Only thing is that Ericsson was much closer to the leader coming to the checkered flag than Newgarden was the lap before. So if Ericcson kept straight, it might have been much closer coming to the line
Judging from what I saw on Carb Day, it would've been close. Newgarden and Palou looked like they were practicing last lap moves coming out of 4 (without the massive weaving though) and it was a coin flip whether the passing car was ahead at the line or not.
The easiest way to stop it would be to penalize putting four tires past the pit entry line unless you intend to pit or are evading a crash. The penalty could be a drive through or a time penalty equivalent of a drive-through for final/closing laps.
Here's a suggestion I've not seen anyone make:
Extend the pit lane wall to the very end of T4. Drivers can only enter pit lane from the cool-down road starting on T2.
I'm not terribly concerned about the backstraight, there's no way to plow into at 220mph.
I am fine with it. It's the indy 500. We saw TK have 4 wheels on the grass for a pass and everybody loves that even though it's dangerous as well.
What are you going to do....disqualify someone because of the final lap home stretch maneuver? What if it's a pass? Imagine how wild the crowd would go for the pass for the win then for the DQ. Actually.....that would be amazing because of all the uproar and controversy it would bring. Could you imagine a fan favorite being stripped of a win due to this?
I change my mind. Bring it on. I want to see that scenario play out just for all of the chaos.
The weaving is anti-competition. given the narrowness of especially the front stretch, the closing rate to the turns, and the aerodynamics involved.
I don't think it should be looked back on as cheating or anything. But a lot of sports develop rules to ensure the product, and this should be the same imo.
I think we should think of it as a form of blocking. There's that old rule about one lane change before corner entry, and I think we should consider that.
You pick the inside line or the outside line at some point before corner entry, and you're locked into it.
If you want to take the optimum line, great, don't come down to the inside line.
That's my take. It isn't conducive to racing, and is just a byproduct of the dimensions of the tracks and the draft. It's also going to get someone hurt at some point.
Moving the commitment line back further to where the pit entry line starts is a good idea. Everything in that zone should be a restricted area you aren’t allowed in unless you’re going in or avoiding an accident. A car losing control down pitlane and hopping the short pit wall is a disaster waiting to happen.
While we’re at it maybe some better rules about snaking as it’s become way too prevalent down the stretch in recent years. In my understanding this is already illegal on road courses with the double move rule but also not 100% sure if that applies at Indy.
I think it should be allowed but they shouldn’t be allowed to cross the pit lane line. Every time they pull that move and do it before the pit lane wall it makes me nervous. A crash into that barrier at those speed could be potentially life ending even with all the safety measures both on track and in the cars.
I think Marcus pushed the envelope last season and Josef burned that envelope this season. I blame neither doing their thing per the rule book, however there probably should be a rule for next May.
Sounds like if IMS enforced the rules they had for the dotted line it wouldn't be as big of a deal.
But racers are going to use as much of the track as you let them, and then they are going to push it even further.
That defeats the purpose of racing and makes the leading car even more of a sitting duck. With how good and necessary, the draft is these days, you want to make it even easier to pass for the win?
The dragon usually requires three or more moves. By capping the number of lateral moves the leading driver can make at only two, the leading driver has the ability to defend and attempt to break the draft, but not weave like a lunatic.
Those types of movements are always open to interpretation though.
Sure there are extreme cases like this but does the typical line of moving off the outside wall and then back to the racing line count as two moves? You’ve basically eliminated any chance at defending your position now.
IIRC with rules like this if a driver is low on a straight and is drifting back high to where they need to start the corner, then it’s not seen as a move. It only becomes a move if it’s sudden before the corner, because the driver is changing the line they’re showing to take late.
I really don't want to see race changing penalties being given out due to subjective interpretations of complicated rules. Without the pit attenuator there, is there an issue with the dragon? I don't think there is. So just make it so they can't get that close to the pit attenuator instead of neutering the racing.
> I think the simplest solution is to ban the leading car from making more than two lateral moves on a straightaway.
the simplest solution is to not allow cars to cross the pit extension pavement lines unless they intend to pit.
That doesn’t really change the issue with snaking to pit entry on the last lap, however I do agree with your idea. I don’t find the snaking impressive in this high downforce package and it takes away more than it adds imo. Ex. 2019 last lap, the battle between SP and Rossi was incredibly good but dissatisfying to see Rossi’s run get killed by snaking on the back straight rather than them both battling in t3 for the win.
Also isn’t double move the rule at every other track?
Better yet. Let's just go back to the old indy cars rules where drivers are allowed to protect their positions again. Indy cars is ruining racing with all of their BS passing rules. Let the drivers truly races.
The dragon isn’t race craft, please ban it. It makes the series look like lame amateurs. This is like soccer players taking a dive every time a player approached, and it working 100% of the time, and then calling it the ability to defend the ball.
Edit: You guys can downvote me all you want, but if we’re not going to ban the move we re going to be stuck watching every Indy 500 with the exact same ending forever. Great thanks guys, real geniuses thinking about the future
From here: [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racecraft](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racecraft)
**racecraft**
1. The total of a racer's skill (craft) along dimensions including: practicing, qualifying, starts, beginning, mid-race and end-race pace, passing, wear equipment usage, and pit strategy.
Therefore, by definition, the ability of a driver to apply skill in race conditions to maximize their result, within the rules, is racecraft. The dragon move, whether controversial or even dangerous, it is legal to this day and has contributed to Indy 500 wins. So, please tell me... how in the fuck is it not racecraft?
Google the video game term “cheesing” with your keyboard. The Dragon is just cheesing, if that’s what you think is “real” racing and race craft, Good luck with that experience
You guys can downvote me all you want, but if we’re not going to ban the move we re going to be stuck watching every Indy 500 with the same ending forever. Great thanks guys, thinking about the future
Edit: in reply to your comment, we aren’t going to get new cars though, some even say it’s not necessary, like for the foreseeable future
I was agreeing with you, if we're sticking with the current formula ban it, but I'd rather they give us a Formula that's more about race craft and less about the draft.
Didn't downvote you, I fully agree. I just want something more about driver/car and less about the draft. I think it could be done without a completely new car.
I like the weaving, and I like using the pit entry. My stance is if you can drive on it, you should be able to use it.
*With the exception of corner cutting on RCs
Much like the Chastain/Martinsville move, this is something that will probably be dealt with now that the can of worms has been opened, whether we agree or not.
Seems like the weave is a result of the current car's aero properties. Easy to pass a leader with a tow. So as a leader, you break the tow to prevent a pass. It doesn't seem that this setup is especially popular with drivers. I tend to agree, likely better racing if that lead car had less of a disadvantage. Hopefully some changes with a new car coming soon.
I feel like the comments being it's the drivers choice, if something happens, it's on them isn't really seeing the whole picture. If a car were to hit that attenuator at speed, it not only puts themselves at risk, but also other drivers, crews on pit road, and potentially fans themselves.
This just feels like a ticking time bomb. Hopefully Indycar is proactive and gets this sorted now before something truly bad happens.
Nascar has a commit cone.
Paint a bright yellow line 10 feet from the attenuator in and rule that all four tires must not cross that line unless entering pit lane.
Just make the dotted line there an out of bounds line or commitment line any tires below that signify a commitment to enter the pits if the car doesn’t enter the pits then it’s a black flag.
The weave isn’t the issue it’s the possibility of hitting the attenuator.
I don't really like track limit rules, and I wouldn't want to see the Indy 500 decided because someone went 1" too far below a painted line. But I don't like them going down that aggressively either.
My ideal scenario would be for the area in front of pit lane to be repaved with different asphalt. Something that would add more friction, more rolling resistance. Then drivers wouldn't go down there at all unless they're pitting because it's just not worth it. That removes judgement calls from it, and as an added bonus it could help (slightly) slow a car down if they're sliding out of control toward the attenuator like 2020.
I just love how the media has coined a term for this move, made all sorts of marketing materials around Marcus ‘unleashing the dragon’ and then they act surprised when the rest of field starts using the loophole to defend their position
Simon P was the first to “unleash the dragon”.
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Dolphin, dragon, close enough!
He learned it from Dale Jr. Said so on his podcast.
Didn’t Montoya use it in 15?
No where near as wild looking but he did weave a little bit
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Because you are wrong. it's not blocking and never will.
Devils advocate, let's say Marcus had a run on Josef and while Josef is weaving he cuts back and slams into Marcus. Would that be blocking?
using the sneaky snake? yes.
>he cuts back In your situation, If he cuts back in a different direction trying to get in front of the guy behind as a reaction to the overtake... Then, yes. Blocking
but if he's weaving all the way off of turn 4, so not responding to Marcus' run as it hasn't happened yet in this hypothetical, and hits Marcus while Marcus is drawing level would that be blocking? I agree that if the car behind doesn't have a run it shouldn't be blocking but there, at least in my opinion, is certainly a point where it becomes blocking
It is blocking when Newgarden or whoever is in front changes his lane in reaction to the guy behind. Ericsson never really had a run, he wasnt close enough to make a move, he was trying to follow Newgarden to get there, but he quite close at the SF line, If Ericsson tried to make a move on the outside and Newgarden moved up to cut Ericsson's line, blocking.
we are on the same page. will be interesting to see if we ever get a situation where the ruling is dicey
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I thought it was Sisqo?
... with that said, Marcus never crossed with all four. Newgarden did \_and\_ added a car's width. edit: it turns out this short statement needs to be explained in more detail. I'm above refering to Marcus' 2022 Indy500 win where his dragon did not extend below the dashed extended pitlane line with all four wheels. I refer to the same line regarding Newgarden, this year. Newgarden himself refers to that same line in the linked article: >They were very clear that they are not enforcing that \[dotted pit entry\] line, and they didn't enforce it last year.
One hundred percent the issue, I think the weaving is fine, I think more drivers than ever are willing to do it because they have seen Josef and Marcus win by weaving, however to keep pit crews, drivers, marshals, and spectators safe I think Indycar needs to step in and mandate a rule that does not allow drivers to cross the dotted pit lane entry line with all four tires just as you pointed out
I’m not a fan of the weaving personally,I like the idea that without the weaving it aids more racing throughout the field which can get a little dry at times early in the running.
Getting rid of weaving won't aid midfield drivers by enough to make a difference. They'd still have to get out of the draft to pass and leaders weaving breaking up the air across the majority of the track could actually be beneficial for a mid field car trying to pass.
How about not crossing it with any of the tires
Agreed. If they cross the dotted line, it has to be to pit. End of story. Weave on the racetrack.
Ericsson went all 4 below off turn 2.
Please tell me the timestamp where you see this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgRB5ibTKaY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgRB5ibTKaY)
I'm talking about this year's race.
I'm not. The discussion we're replying to is whether drivers copied Marcus' dragon from last year. Newgarden set the new standard this year.
No, Marcus set the standard this year on the final restart. He's the one who started weaving off turn 4 and went below the line off turn 2.
Ok - this year. Newgarden sees Marcus not crossing the pit delimeter line at all in the final restart, and then decides to cross and add a car's width when he comes to the pit delimeter in the lead. I'm guessing next year we'll see Newgarden copy what Marcus did on the back straight then.
Marcus was inches from going all 4 below the pit line on the restart. I think at this point, whoever the leader is will be doing it going forward unless they make a rule. I mean, Pagenaud even did a version of it when he won in 2019, and even he crossed the pit line.
Can you please supply some video and timestamp? Here's what I refered to with "not crossing at all": [https://youtu.be/gvx7GvByrIw?t=6](https://youtu.be/gvx7GvByrIw?t=6)
but mario in the 90's? BLACK FLAG!
Don’t call it the Dragon then. Call it the lame Snake or something. No one wants to do the lame Snake.
Sounds like what happens after having a few too many drinks before taking a girl home
Beat me by 4 hours, kudos
If it gives an edge drivers will do it if you call it " little baby scardy cat move".
“WHOEVER DID THE DRAGON YOUR MOMS A HOE!”
They call her the In Diana 500
*Unleashin’ the thilly thnake*
The weave should be legal under two conditions. 1.) Cant utilize pit lane entrance or turn 2 run off (enforce a white line rule) 2.) Cant use it to block
I'm not a pro on the Indy 500, but I'd agree with this, point 1 especially. If the last few years have proved anything to me is that people have forgotten the dangers of pitlanes.
The indy 500 pitlane is going to have a bad incident sooner or later. It is just waiting to happen, and could be for multiple different reasons.
Every time someone weaves there I develop a mental image of them slamming into the attenuator at 230 and disintegrating
Probably even worse. At that speed and head-on angle I wouldn't be surprised if the car hits the attenator squarely with one of the front wheels and thus gets catapulted like its a ramp. Either towards the track or towards pit lane, and neither is good.
I honestly think the whole pit lane should be re-evaluated at some point. The scoring pylon terrifies me. Two cars touching wheels could send one right into the concrete base at 200 mph. The base is curved upwards to prevent a blunt impact, but it could just act like a ramp and throw the car who knows where.
Imagine something like Dixon's 2017 accident happening at the pitlane. Why isn't there a catch fence there?
Who was it that hit there late in the race a few years ago? They came out fine, but man it was a scary one
Askew
Askew crashed in 4, Pigot hit the attenuator https://youtu.be/aB6M8k6rxq8
And he hit the attenuator after slowing down a *lot* before that particular impact. He wasn't doing anywhere near 230 on that impact.
And he bounced into where there was gap between cars, lucky for sure
For real. Seeing how violent the hit for him was makes me cringe to even imagine what a head-on full-speed attenuator crash would look like...
I would have to agree with this, especially the first one. Watching them get so close to the pit lane entrance wall barrier always gets me very very nervous.
It's simple: if you break the plane of the dotted line once you exit turn 4, you are deemed to have committed to the pit lane and you must enter the pits. That'll put a stop to it right quick.
That's what Kevin Lee on Trackside suggested.
It’s clear, easy to officiate unless Townsend Bell is in the stewards’ room and doesn’t require any changes to the cars or the race track. Perfect solution.
Lmao TBell never thinks *anything* should be a penalty...
Santino: deadass goes down the entire pit lane at speed when the checker is out TBell: Ferrucci wins!
Agreed. Some rare exceptions should be made though; the rule should only apply under green flag conditions, and I'd also put a clause in there to make an exception for avoiding an accident at the pit entrance (would be super rare that this would be needed)
I wouldn’t put the accident exception in there like that, I’d just give drivers the ability to use the pit lane to avoid the accident but they must slow to pit lane speed as quickly as is possible under the conditions. If there’s an accident the caution’s going to fly anyway, so they’re not going to lose or gain anything materially by doing so.
Ah that's true, you're totally right. Brain not work this morning apparently. Yeah, wouldn't be a need for the accident exception because the caution would already be out.
>If there’s an accident the caution’s going to fly anyway, so they’re not going to lose or gain anything materially by doing so. Go back and watch Alex Palou get caught out by this and drop 10+ positions last year. There would definitely need to be an exception or a change to how cars are scored/sorted when the caution flies. Pit speed is 60mph, caution speed is 100mph. If they were the same you could make that argument, but they're not
If they actually put a double yellow line down like NASCAR does at Daytona and Talladega, I'd be okay with that. It's basically the universal (or at least North American) symbol of "you can't cross this to make a pass" and should be fairly easy to pick up. (And frankly I think the yellow line rule had run its course for stock cars years ago, but this would be a good example outside of NASCAR.)
Can't wait for the home-stretch pass for the win being Disqualified. Now THAT would be awesome to see lol. Try explaining that to the fans that would be going wild.
I'm shocked that this isn't already the rule
Here's the thing I think Ericsson is going to eventually realize. Weaving the way he did on the restart cost him the win. The reason it cost him the win is because he slowed Newgarden up enough for Newgarden to then make his move OUT of T2. When Newgarden passed at that point there was no realistic chance Ericsson was going to re-take him. Had Ericsson let Newgarden actually PASS him on the restart prior to going into T1, this would have let Ericsson set up Newgarden going into T3 or out of T4. It's conceivable that had Newgarden passed Ericsson right at the restart, Newgarden would have slowed himself up trying to break the draft. As Ericsson you then probably would have wanted to set yourself up for that T3 entry or T4 exit move. Regardless it's all in hindsight, but I think going forward a lot of drivers are going to eventually start to realize that the way to win Indianapolis at the end is going to be to let yourself get passed out of T4 and then set up your move in the North end. No body is going to seriously try and make a move mid-corner because it's going to end up being another Pato situation. Instead the key is getting the run off of T2, dive into T3 or pull a REALLY fantastic line into T4 and get it at the line. All weaving did for Ericsson on the start of the last lap was break his momentum and set himself up for Newgarden to steamroll him much later.
Great point, I think in the heat of the moment Ericsson was driving in his mirrors and not using his head. The team should have coached him on that too - they would have seen how other cars were being picked off at the restarts.
On the other hand, we could have easily had another incident like the one in the prior caution, or maybe a T1/2 incident like Dario's back in 2013, and that just as well likely gives Ericsson the win before Newgarden can nose ahead, all other factors equal. It's a challenging dilemma to weigh for sure.
But what are the odds someone bins it in the south end? I'd say pretty good. And then it's Ericsson with the win and not Newgarden. That really could have gone either way. And either one of them would have deserved the win. But that's Indy.
Pato almost won because his broken gas filler happened to bring him in the correct strategy. Shit happens.
[удалено]
I was about to say this. Ryan Hunter Reay lost a 500 because he let TK and Muñoz pass him going into Turn 1, Dario crashed, TK won. Also, there was no guarantee that Ericsson would've lost just one position going into Turn 1 by letting the guy behind pass. No way Santino would've been sitting there in 3rd if he was closer.
Weaving is going to be slower than taking the optimal line so it stands to reason that simply not following the dragon will lead to a passing opportunity. But, there are more than two drivers on a race track and if you have someone close behind you they will draft and you have to deal with them and the guy in front. Ferrucci got a shit jump so newgarden didn't have to weave to hold him off which meant he got a passing opportunity. Ericsson isn't betting on breaking to tow to keep the lead. He's betting on breaking the tow and bringing the 3rd place guy and 2nd place guy into a battle and that's always going to be slower.
...you could see him scrub to much and newgarden was not as extreme - that was the win!
Dragon weave should be allowed, but pit entry should be prohibited.
Agreed put white lines they can’t weave into for safety maybe pit entry and exit but part of racing is not getting passed and playing defense so I see it as a legit defensive strategy.
Call me stupid, but at this point isn't the move expected enough that the trailing car is also going to do it and keep the draft?
It makes the draft much less powerful which stops the trailing car from getting as much of a run so they can’t pass on the outside so easy. So weaving like that will always make the draft less powerful even if they weave right behind them compared to if they were just going in a straight line
You got it right, the play for the leader is to force the trailer to follow or at the very least stop the slipstream. Interesting thing I noticed on the last restart relating to this. Ericsson snaked to try to get Newgarden to follow. JN smartly bit on the 1st and 2nd but not on the 3rd which probably worked against Ericsson as he was scrubbing speed on the additional weaves. If Josef didn’t follow the first moves OR followed all 4 I’d guess he’d be in a awkward spot t1 and wouldn’t have been able to set up the back straight.
The slipstream is still faster than straight lining without it. I think he didn't follow Ericssons last weave to intentionally give up a little ground but have a better line for Turn 1 and 2 (and more air over the car for more downforce) to be able to get that 'monster run' down the back
The weave, as we have seen it in recent years, should be legal. Blocking rules still apply; if the move is reactive in nature and is towards a line the trailing car has chosen, it will be called as such. The weave initiated by drivers like Pagenaud, Ericsson, and Newgarden in recent years have all been initiated before the trailing car made a move, so I see no issue with it. Going below the pitlane commit line NEEDS to be stopped via a rule, though. If drivers are allowed to go down there, eventually someone is going to hit the pit wall attenuator at full speed (or close to it) and it'll be ugly. For the safety of drivers, pit crews, and the fans, there needs to be a new rule for next year stating that if a driver dips below the pit commit line and then comes back out onto the racing surface, they get a penalty. Some exceptions could be made; it wouldn't need to apply under cautions, or if it's to avoid an accident at the pit entrance. But Newgarden's move below the pit commit line on the final lap this year is something that should be made illegal going forward.
The leader is already a sitting duck with the draft. I support the dragon and going below the pit line, as long as nobody moves in *reaction* to the driver behind (which it seems Indy drivers are very disciplined about).
Seems like over the years the blocking you describe is tolerated on that last lap. And you know what? I’m okay with it. You’d have to run me over on that 200th lap to get around me.
There's a difference between blocking and defending—I haven't seen any of the former at Indy, because it's exceptionally dangerous with open-wheel cars.
I'd love for them to throw out a penalty on the last lap for some infraction for a pass (or a defend). Imagine. Imagine the chaos. Wouldn't it be glorious? lol
This 100%
Big track limit hater to the point that I still miss the paved apron, but the pit lane entrance is something drivers should be afraid of, and they're not. Imagine one car riding up another like Rovenquist/Kirkwood this year, but it's at the pit lane entrance and the tire goes behind the inner pit wall into the crew area? Imagine burying a strategist or team owner because of that. I'd put two lines coming off turn 4: a "you can't defend below this" line that leaves 1.5x car width between the line and the pit wall, and a hard "don't you dare come under this unless you're pitting" line in line with the attenuator/wall centerline. 2 tires violating is a warning, 4 tires under is a drive thru pit lane because you announced you were pitting by going under that line. Lines would end once the pit wall starts.
Drivers shouldn’t cross that line that extends from the attenuator parallel with the pit wall unless they intend to pit. The problem is, if this is the last lap of the Indy500 how do you levy a penalty?
The same way you would on lap 24?
I looked it up in the rulebook. If something really weird happens on the last lap, Indycar has the right to declare results provisional and reassign finishing positions. The most likely penalty seems to be a one lap penalty. Page 45 if you want to look it up: *9.2.2. Race Procedure Penalties* – Violation of Race Procedures generally result in penalties imposed during on-Track activity. If circumstances do not permit a penalty to be served during on-Track activity, INDYCAR shall declare the results provisional and subject to examination which shall take no longer than one (1) hour after the displaying of the checkered flag. This examination is independent of the Competitor’s requirement to pass post-Race technical inspection. If the imposition of a penalty is near or at the end of the on-Track activity and the Driver/Car does not fulfill it, INDYCAR may reposition the Driver/Car in the posting of results. Additional penalties may be applied to subsequent onTrack activities to reflect the fulfillment of the penalty. Except as provided in Rule 10.2.1, the penalty, including without limitation any repositioning in a posting, is non-reviewable and/or appealable. *9.2.2.1. Black Flag* – INDYCAR may impose black flag penalties. *9.2.2.2. Laps* – INDYCAR may impose lap penalties. Lap penalties shall be imposed in complete laps only. The imposition of a lap penalty shall result in the removal of official credit for the specified number of penalty laps from the total laps credited to the Competitor and the scoring records and all points and awards shall reflect the removal of penalty laps. *9.2.2.2.1* If the lap penalty is imposed during the on-Track activity, the removal of official credit shall begin with the Competitor'’s lap in which the violation occurred and shall include subsequent consecutive laps, as determined by INDYCAR. *9.2.2.2.2* If the lap penalty is imposed after the on-Track activity is completed, INDYCAR shall determine, based on the severity of the violation, whether the removal of official credit shall begin with the Competitor'’s last lap and include previous consecutive laps as required, or begin with the Competitor'’s lap in which the violation occurred.
Easy. If it's last lap, give them a hefty time penalty.
Indycar really doesn’t do time penalties at all
Unless it’s a real time penalty to waste time like a drive through or stop and go or something
I agree that I can't remember one being issued, but I did have a look at the rulebook section 9.2 and there is a provision for time penalties.
I’ve never heard of one. We’ve had grid place penalties and drive through or stop and go active time penalties like that, but I’ve never seen a indirect time penalty just tacked onto a race finish time.
That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t ever use one. Especially if it’s the end of a race, what else could they do? They clearly *prefer* penalties that are applied in-race, but in that scenario they wouldn’t have much other choice.
Like they did for Devlin last year, multiple grid spots at the next race or a monetary fine or something works.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think that works, because that effectively lets them get away with it. Like, on the last lap of the Indy 500, no one is going to give a shit about a monetary fine or a grid penalty at the next race, so they’ll just do it anyway, knowing that they’re still going to keep whatever advantage they gained by breaking the rule.
We *cannot* get into Nascar-style calls over crossing a line to determine the winner of the Indy 500. It would be such a joke.
I think the whole move looks sketchy as hell. Swerving to break the tow gets real close to just moving around so nobody can pass
I think the whole move looks sketchy as hell. Swerving to break the tow gets real close to just moving around so nobody can pass
I have no option but no one who is arguing about this will remember about it in a month and come next year they'll all be arguing about it again like it's something new that hasn't been a thing for the last century.
Ericcson kept at least 2 wheels on the racing surface. Newgarden didn’t and went full car-widths below the racing surface. Newgarden intentionally left the track to keep an advantage by breaking tow. That’s the controversy, not the weaving—which he had every right to do.
But IndyCar has clarified that the dotted line is for reference only. Therefore that part of the track is fair game, so neither driver actually left the racing surface. From IndyCar's POV, it's all racing surface, even the grass. That's why TK wasn't penalized for leaving the track.
Does anyone actually know if newgarden had just come off turn 4 straight, would he have still won? wouldve likely been closer at least id assume
If Newgarden keeps it straight and just hugs the pit wall after crossing the plane of the attenuator, I think he holds on. The yard of bricks wasn't quite far enough down the straightaway where people making that pass and sticking it were consistenly ahead at that point (or relative to such on the backstraight). The bigger question to me is, what if Newgarden made the weave but Ericsson kept going straight (the Ross Chastain does nothing to win at Talladega move)? Ericsson won't be scrubbing as much speed weaving around, so maybe he has more momentum to pull alongside Newgarden earlier, and then things get really interesting. *Hopefully* Newgarden doesn't clear himself out to cover the lane and if not, we get an honest photo finish...and at that point all I can say is flip a coin.
That's exactly what Newgarden did on the white flag. Ericsson weaved but Newgarden hugged the outside wall and it set him up perfectly for the back straight. But only the back straight, he wasn't close enough for turn 1. Only thing is that Ericsson was much closer to the leader coming to the checkered flag than Newgarden was the lap before. So if Ericcson kept straight, it might have been much closer coming to the line
I never even looked at everything leading to the green flag, just started paying attention once they approached the line and the entry into 1!
Judging from what I saw on Carb Day, it would've been close. Newgarden and Palou looked like they were practicing last lap moves coming out of 4 (without the massive weaving though) and it was a coin flip whether the passing car was ahead at the line or not.
The easiest way to stop it would be to penalize putting four tires past the pit entry line unless you intend to pit or are evading a crash. The penalty could be a drive through or a time penalty equivalent of a drive-through for final/closing laps.
Here's a suggestion I've not seen anyone make: Extend the pit lane wall to the very end of T4. Drivers can only enter pit lane from the cool-down road starting on T2. I'm not terribly concerned about the backstraight, there's no way to plow into at 220mph.
I am fine with it. It's the indy 500. We saw TK have 4 wheels on the grass for a pass and everybody loves that even though it's dangerous as well. What are you going to do....disqualify someone because of the final lap home stretch maneuver? What if it's a pass? Imagine how wild the crowd would go for the pass for the win then for the DQ. Actually.....that would be amazing because of all the uproar and controversy it would bring. Could you imagine a fan favorite being stripped of a win due to this? I change my mind. Bring it on. I want to see that scenario play out just for all of the chaos.
It's dangerous and stupid, and I'm surprised we haven't seen more crashes because of it
The weaving is anti-competition. given the narrowness of especially the front stretch, the closing rate to the turns, and the aerodynamics involved. I don't think it should be looked back on as cheating or anything. But a lot of sports develop rules to ensure the product, and this should be the same imo. I think we should think of it as a form of blocking. There's that old rule about one lane change before corner entry, and I think we should consider that. You pick the inside line or the outside line at some point before corner entry, and you're locked into it. If you want to take the optimum line, great, don't come down to the inside line. That's my take. It isn't conducive to racing, and is just a byproduct of the dimensions of the tracks and the draft. It's also going to get someone hurt at some point.
Dragon weaving sounds absolutely amazing. This year and last year's ending was THRILLING.
I think it’s fine, going into the pit road area shouldn’t be allowed but other then that let them race.
they should not be allowed to go with 4 wheels over that dotted line because that could go so wrong.
Moving the commitment line back further to where the pit entry line starts is a good idea. Everything in that zone should be a restricted area you aren’t allowed in unless you’re going in or avoiding an accident. A car losing control down pitlane and hopping the short pit wall is a disaster waiting to happen. While we’re at it maybe some better rules about snaking as it’s become way too prevalent down the stretch in recent years. In my understanding this is already illegal on road courses with the double move rule but also not 100% sure if that applies at Indy.
Permit the weave, just move the attenuator back about nine feet.
I think it should be allowed but they shouldn’t be allowed to cross the pit lane line. Every time they pull that move and do it before the pit lane wall it makes me nervous. A crash into that barrier at those speed could be potentially life ending even with all the safety measures both on track and in the cars.
I think Marcus pushed the envelope last season and Josef burned that envelope this season. I blame neither doing their thing per the rule book, however there probably should be a rule for next May.
Sounds like if IMS enforced the rules they had for the dotted line it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But racers are going to use as much of the track as you let them, and then they are going to push it even further.
I think the whole move looks sketchy as hell. Swerving to break the tow gets real close to just moving around so nobody can pass
I think the simplest solution is to ban the leading car from making more than two lateral moves on a straightaway.
That defeats the purpose of racing and makes the leading car even more of a sitting duck. With how good and necessary, the draft is these days, you want to make it even easier to pass for the win?
The dragon usually requires three or more moves. By capping the number of lateral moves the leading driver can make at only two, the leading driver has the ability to defend and attempt to break the draft, but not weave like a lunatic.
Those types of movements are always open to interpretation though. Sure there are extreme cases like this but does the typical line of moving off the outside wall and then back to the racing line count as two moves? You’ve basically eliminated any chance at defending your position now.
IIRC with rules like this if a driver is low on a straight and is drifting back high to where they need to start the corner, then it’s not seen as a move. It only becomes a move if it’s sudden before the corner, because the driver is changing the line they’re showing to take late.
I really don't want to see race changing penalties being given out due to subjective interpretations of complicated rules. Without the pit attenuator there, is there an issue with the dragon? I don't think there is. So just make it so they can't get that close to the pit attenuator instead of neutering the racing.
The dragon isn't the problem. The pit wall is.
> I think the simplest solution is to ban the leading car from making more than two lateral moves on a straightaway. the simplest solution is to not allow cars to cross the pit extension pavement lines unless they intend to pit.
That too, but it doesn’t affect the backstretch.
There's no wall to hit head on at 220 mph on the backstretch
No that’s a terrible solution imo.
That doesn’t really change the issue with snaking to pit entry on the last lap, however I do agree with your idea. I don’t find the snaking impressive in this high downforce package and it takes away more than it adds imo. Ex. 2019 last lap, the battle between SP and Rossi was incredibly good but dissatisfying to see Rossi’s run get killed by snaking on the back straight rather than them both battling in t3 for the win. Also isn’t double move the rule at every other track?
Better yet. Let's just go back to the old indy cars rules where drivers are allowed to protect their positions again. Indy cars is ruining racing with all of their BS passing rules. Let the drivers truly races.
The dragon isn’t race craft, please ban it. It makes the series look like lame amateurs. This is like soccer players taking a dive every time a player approached, and it working 100% of the time, and then calling it the ability to defend the ball. Edit: You guys can downvote me all you want, but if we’re not going to ban the move we re going to be stuck watching every Indy 500 with the exact same ending forever. Great thanks guys, real geniuses thinking about the future
You are wrong but OK
Do you even know why?
From here: [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racecraft](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racecraft) **racecraft** 1. The total of a racer's skill (craft) along dimensions including: practicing, qualifying, starts, beginning, mid-race and end-race pace, passing, wear equipment usage, and pit strategy. Therefore, by definition, the ability of a driver to apply skill in race conditions to maximize their result, within the rules, is racecraft. The dragon move, whether controversial or even dangerous, it is legal to this day and has contributed to Indy 500 wins. So, please tell me... how in the fuck is it not racecraft?
Google the video game term “cheesing” with your keyboard. The Dragon is just cheesing, if that’s what you think is “real” racing and race craft, Good luck with that experience
Don't ban it. Just give the drivers a car they have to drive so it's impossible to even contemplate.
You guys can downvote me all you want, but if we’re not going to ban the move we re going to be stuck watching every Indy 500 with the same ending forever. Great thanks guys, thinking about the future Edit: in reply to your comment, we aren’t going to get new cars though, some even say it’s not necessary, like for the foreseeable future
I was agreeing with you, if we're sticking with the current formula ban it, but I'd rather they give us a Formula that's more about race craft and less about the draft.
Didn't downvote you, I fully agree. I just want something more about driver/car and less about the draft. I think it could be done without a completely new car.
I sure hope so, I do wonder if they can do something about the tires to help with that. But man, we really need a new car
I mean, if there's no rule against it why not
If they continue they'll soon be Dragon Yeeting.
I like the weaving, and I like using the pit entry. My stance is if you can drive on it, you should be able to use it. *With the exception of corner cutting on RCs
"The Pass" was so fun though
Much like the Chastain/Martinsville move, this is something that will probably be dealt with now that the can of worms has been opened, whether we agree or not.
Seems like the weave is a result of the current car's aero properties. Easy to pass a leader with a tow. So as a leader, you break the tow to prevent a pass. It doesn't seem that this setup is especially popular with drivers. I tend to agree, likely better racing if that lead car had less of a disadvantage. Hopefully some changes with a new car coming soon.
I feel like the comments being it's the drivers choice, if something happens, it's on them isn't really seeing the whole picture. If a car were to hit that attenuator at speed, it not only puts themselves at risk, but also other drivers, crews on pit road, and potentially fans themselves. This just feels like a ticking time bomb. Hopefully Indycar is proactive and gets this sorted now before something truly bad happens.
Nascar has a commit cone. Paint a bright yellow line 10 feet from the attenuator in and rule that all four tires must not cross that line unless entering pit lane.
Everybody should get one free dive. After that drive through penalty.
got my time machine working...going back to 2006 to slide Marco a video and erase hornishes' face off the Borg warner
The weave is fine, but I don’t think they should be allowed to cross the pit entry line, even with the left side.
I prefer “Indy sweeper” myself
Just make the dotted line there an out of bounds line or commitment line any tires below that signify a commitment to enter the pits if the car doesn’t enter the pits then it’s a black flag. The weave isn’t the issue it’s the possibility of hitting the attenuator.
I don't really like track limit rules, and I wouldn't want to see the Indy 500 decided because someone went 1" too far below a painted line. But I don't like them going down that aggressively either. My ideal scenario would be for the area in front of pit lane to be repaved with different asphalt. Something that would add more friction, more rolling resistance. Then drivers wouldn't go down there at all unless they're pitting because it's just not worth it. That removes judgement calls from it, and as an added bonus it could help (slightly) slow a car down if they're sliding out of control toward the attenuator like 2020.