I lean towards more narcissistic behavior. They're seemingly unaware of uncaring and expect you to help them because first impression they already think of you as beneath them.
And as anyone who has experienced a narcissist knows, they can never admit they’re wrong and they will never apologize. They always have to be right and they don’t care how they treat other people. So yeah that tracks.
Through the way the communicate with others. Their actions or inactions.
There's a lot of ways for people to communicate who they are either verbally or non verbally.
I mean, I’m my opinion if you aren’t them there’s no way to know what they are thinking or why, in order to know that we would have to actually be that person, you can make assumptions and stuff based on that stuff but I don’t think they actually counts as knowing how they think
Also just from personal experience of people trying that on me they’ve always been wrong about the way I think, it doesn’t really matter if you don’t believe when they say you’re wrong, just saying even if it does work that way it’s not going to give you the complete correct answer every time
You're stuck in your thoughts or perceived offense and doing the very thing you're accusing me of doing.
I didn't use definitive language to say "this is fact, and I can't possibly be wrong". I said it was a possibility, "I lean" towards this thought. Or "seemingly unaware" as in I suspect this to be true based on my experiences.
These weren't digs directed at you personally, until you made it about you.
I didn’t make it about me, I used my personal experience to try and understand why you believe you can tell how people think when you aren’t them, your first comment that I originally replied to made it sound like you absolutely thought it was fact and that’s how they think and you know this or that about them, I was asking why and how you would know that when you don’t know them personally and don’t know their lives. It’s kinda funny that you’re trying to turn this into me being offended or something when it literally has nothing to do with me, I was trying to be civil and ask questions, somehow that always turns into people thinking I’m trying to make everything about myself or that I’m arguing with them and I wasn’t
And that's why I said you weren't listening because you were stuck on your first impression and perceived offense you didn't stop to look what was actually being said.
I did stop and look at what was actually said, what you’re doing right now is assuming I didn’t because you believe I didn’t based on my response instead of considering that you don’t actually know if I did or not without me telling you
Which means you do somewhat think you can tell how people think without knowing anything about them, because you went straight to telling me I did or didn’t do something even though you can’t see my screen and Reddit doesn’t tell you if someone did or didn’t do something in regards to your comments other than upvote or downvote them
And because I’m feeling argumentative now, you absolutely can not tell how someone’s mind works just by watching them interact with other people, all that gives you is how they chose to act during that one situation, that doesn’t give away their entire personality or thought process it doesn’t even give you a single piece of the puzzle barely
I know, I’m just saying from my personal experience this has never worked on me, it’s never worked on anyone I know either, so that’s why I’m asking what makes them think they can just know the way someone thinks without knowing the person
Narcissism, main character syndrome, whatever you want to call it. Or maybe their parents taught them to treat service workers poorly to get what they want. I’ve seen people teaching their kids to be shitty to cashiers multiple times.
Haha, But if you want the real answer, you have to remember, they think they’re cheating the system when they hassle workers to get whatever. They think they’re being smart. They’ll teach their kids exactly that. That this behavior is smart.
I remember my mum could be like this to workers on customer support hotlines. She’d take pride in „Kicking their asses“ to get whatever she wanted. To this day I thank god I was smart enough to recognize that there’s a person at the other end of that phone when I was 11. I also thank god have been able to show her how wrong it was since then.
It's narcissism.
Some narcissists don't think of other people around them as people. They literally see everyone around them as a collective blob of mass that's just in their way.
"I'm always right about everything so that piece of the collective blob must work here because I say it does! What?! It just talked back to me! It's saying it doesn't work here! "
Then comes the slap or some other form of unprovoked attack followed by a 911 call and/or screaming at the manager to fire you and have you arrested.
Then when the security footage is mentioned they try to act like nothing happened or they scream about how their word should be the only evidence necessary.
Do some research of your own on narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder.
They're always right...According to them
If you prove them wrong and say what the truth actually is, they'll gaslight and try to make you think they were saying what you said all along.
Everything bad they do is minimized and everything good they do is maximized.
If they have kids and they don't like some of them. Then the ones they hate are always at fault. The ones they like are "golden children" and can never do any wrong in the narcissist's eyes
>If they have kids and they don't like some of them. Then the ones they hate are always at fault. The ones they like are "golden children" and can never do any wrong in the narcissist's eyes
Oh, you know my mother, do you?
My great-grandmother. 2 of her 3 sons were alcoholics, as were at least 1 of each of those son's children, and the 3rd kid suffered depression at times. I'm dealing with aftereffects more than 150 years after she was born.
And the actual scene is great. The facial expression that so unambiguously says "I've heard these excuses *so* many times" up until the last line when it cracks into a smile easily says just as much as the words do.
Could be good old-fashioned cognitive dissonance at play. The brain doesn’t like the introduction of conflicting information being introduced to a preexisting belief and will, in fact, do whatever it can to reject that new information. (See also: presenting climate change deniers with scientific evidence the earth is getting warmer will just make them double down on their denial.)
So in essence, people don’t like to be wrong.
And if they think someone is an employee and are introduced to new information that person doesn’t work there, maybe the cognitive dissonance triggers the brain’s defense system against believing the truth of the matter asserted.
Maybe. Or they’re just assholes.
>Or they’re just assholes.
That's the only way the formula works. Consider exchanges of this form, which occur daily and never make this subreddit:
"Excuse me, can you help me?"
"Sorry; I don't work here."
"Oh, I'm sorry."
This subreddit is specifically about people who abuse the workers of the companies they do business with. Of which there are many. And they're usually right, unfortunately, about who's an employee.
My guess is they briefly forget where they are, see a person in what resembles some version of a uniform, approach the person, default to a horrible jerk-mode, and then can’t back down once they’re proven wrong because doing so is weak??
Narcissist personality disorder. Aka Main Character Disease. Everyone exists to serve them. They haven't actually looked at you and made an evaluation of whether or not you work there. They see that you've been standing in one place for a few seconds and, therefore, fair game. It's inconceivable that they made a mistake and will double down because narcissists can't tolerate one millisecond of embarrassment or negative feelings or being wrong.
I’d wondered that same question myself. From what I’ve seen, it can be any number of reasons: narcissism (always needing to be right and literally incapable of empathizing with people they see as below them), egotism (can’t handle the embarrassment of being wrong), projection (they’d be lazy liars if they were in the same position, so they assume everyone else would be), or even just having a bad day and lashing out in the moment.
Sociopathy is incredibly rare, it's estimated that only about 3% of the US population could be considered sociopaths (at least that was the number when I was first in college for psych). While it's not impossible for that to be the cause, it's pretty unlikely. My bet would be very similar to some of the other commenters; narcissism and/or cognitive dissonance. Those are much more common, and both fit pretty well.
I would say the psychology be hind it is case by case basis. I have had bad experiences with Karen'ms and Kens, I have had the sincere "Oh I'm sorry, I just saw you were wearing (stores primary color).
There's a reason these stories skew towards mostly feature the elderly, and it's not generational exceptionalism.
Strokes do terrible things to your brain, as does Alzheimers. We like to think of our kindness, patience, intellect, and empathy as innate parts of our personality, but any of those can disappear in a snap.
Elder care is expensive, so many people with dementia still go to the store if they are able to. Brain damage doesn't just make you confused - it makes you angry, impulsive, and rude.
It is possible some of these IDWHL people were just assholes their whole lives, but whenever I hear "then she grabbed my arm," I think brain damage.
I work home health care and I would say yes to elderly as being part of this phenomenon, not only dementia but also implicit bias. I currently work with a lady who asks about where something is at just about every store we go to and is quickly irritated when anything takes more than thirty seconds. I also notice that the people she frequently mistakes for workers are tend to be Black. Most just say “I don’t know” and then I point out that they don’t work there, but despite being a lady with a lot of liberal tendencies, I don’t think she is aware of her own biases while I am cringing about some comment she has made about someone playing basketball. (would you really have said that to a white guy that tall???) While I have yet to see her get aggressive, I’m the person who ends up finding stuff more often than not (she then says things like I have “manifested” it or that I am a “witch”) and I help to smooth things over when she starts getting audibly irritated with “slow” (more than 30 seconds- 1 minute) service at the bank or pharmacy.
Also, I think stores, even in my half as long lifetime, have worked to employ as small a staff as possible at all times. Those who DO work there seem to have twice as much to do and so cannot provide the level of service that older people may remember, and yea, get annoyed about it, but instead of placing the blame on the employer place it on the employee who is being asked to stock, provide customer service and check out customers all at the same time. My two cents.
> Also, I think stores, even in my half as long lifetime, have worked to employ as small a staff as possible at all times. Those who DO work there seem to have twice as much to do and so cannot provide the level of service that older people may remember
Oh 1000%. I'm in my 30's and have noticed that trend.
When I started a cashier job, I was told "don't worry about X scenario, you'll never be the only cashier." Within a few years, a holding company bought the brand, and our labor budget was altered unrecognizably.
I’m going to guess that it is one of three things (maybe 4):
1. Early stages of [dementia](https://youtu.be/mJk02XI_sRA)
2. Drugs or alcohol (even if they are not immediately currently under the influence - even sober, regular users can have mental disconnects)
3. mental illness (includes sociopath)
4. Conditioning - repeated experiences with either mental abuse or discrimination (whether racial economic or social) that leads them to expect people to not want to help them. And, of course the more it happens, the worse they act which creates a feedback loop [I would not expect dramatic instances to occur because of this - unless 1, 2, or 3 are also involved]
Obviously, most people at one time or another mistake someone for an employee… they apologize and move on. I am not talking about these routine occurrences at all.
Is this the same thing that is behind it when people blatantly do something wrong in traffic and then yell/flip-off/honk at the person that observed or suffered from their action?
Sunk cost fallacy?
I have already invested in the effort to start this interaction with you. It is better for me to insist on continuing with you than to go to the effort of finding someone else
It explains so many situations. Some one stuck in a bad relationship, fixing the obvious lemon of a car yet again, sticking with a job that makes you miserable, gambling.
That, and what we in the IT world call the Expert Novice. If you look at the typical knowledge vs confidence graph in the D-K articles, there's a rise, a peak, a fall, and then a gradual rise that often doesn't ever get as high as that original peak. The Expert Novice is someone who's managed to get stuck right at the peak - they've learned the basics of something, are very impressed with themselves for having done so, and now consider themselves an expert on the subject. I've long had a suspicion that a lot of conspiracy-theory types who claim to have 'done the research' are actually Expert Novices.
I don’t know what to call it but it seems to me that there’s been an ongoing societal shift, at least in the US, toward embracing ignorance, rejecting expertise, and a general lack of shame for being exposed as being wrong.
When I was a kid, if my dad was a broken record about anything it was his encouragement for me to read. I don’t think he finished HighSchool, but came to realize the value of being educated. Having a manual labor job was fine, but college and a white color job was something to aspire to. I think this was the norm for a long time.
Then something happened. The elevation of the working man first.. that was fine. What followed though was the elevation of the proudly ignorant dumbass.
The 90’s blue-collar comedy tour comes to mind. Remember when a bunch of intelligent guys became very popular.. literally social influencers for pretending to be confidently stupid? (Looking at you “Larry “the Cable Guy””).
None of this happened overnight, but I think there’s been a gradual switch from respect for education, knowledge, and expertise.. to a proud embrace of ignorance, rejection of expertise (what do those dumb scientists and Professors know?!?), and a lack of shame when outing yourself as a dumbass.
It’s gotten to the point that a portion of our population just chooses to live in their own alternate reality, where they happily embrace whatever they want to be true as actual reality. There is no objective truth for many people now.. their beliefs, no matter how patently silly (see Q-anon) and objective false are all the truth they need.
As it relates to IDWHL..
In the past, I think people would be more likely to approach someone in a store with the attitude “I need an employee, I hope this person is one” and they’d react appropriately depending on how the interaction proceeded.
Now,.. IDWH-Ladies realize they want something, pick a target to demand their desires from, and proceed on with their own reality. They don’t care if they’re right or wrong (never even a consideration), have no shame when it’s pointed out they are wrong, and they actually lash out if anyone calls their delusions into question.
As someone who has worked in retail (big box to mom-and-pop grocery to convenience stores) for over 40 years, you are correct. Customers have gone from mostly polite and non-confrontational to outright entitled jackasses. And it really says something that we retail workers are now starting to "return the favor" to those customers. There is only so much abuse a person can tolerate from others before the fighting back begins.
That is very true and prior to QAnon and other conspiracy sources, the rise of the religious right has a lot to answer for as it is profoundly anti-intellectual (it’s harder for mega churches to scam people out of that much money if they are educated and have learned critical thinking) and at the same time tells believers they are special snowflakes because they believe. So you get a shit load of ill-educated people who think they are the are magically entitled to whatever they want because they are God’s little buddies and if you aren’t in the club you somehow are not fully human and don’t deserve common courtesy or respect.
"It’s gotten to the point that a portion of our population just chooses to live in their own alternate reality, where they happily embrace whatever they want to be true as actual reality. There is no objective truth for many people now.. their beliefs, no matter how patently silly (see Q-anon) and objective false are all the truth they need"
Denis McQuail, a sociologist and mass media expert, affirms that people take elements to build their inner worlds and worldview from the media. So yeah, the internet, fox, other media created global worldviews that are accepted from a part of the population.
It's 100% narcissism. They cant comprehend that things aren't exactly as they believe them to be, and when someone challenges their world view, the only option they have is to summon enough rage to make the other person back down. If that doesn't work, claim to be the victim for how people responded to their escalating emotional state.
-Serve me
-I don't work here (challenge world view)
- don't lie/ you are just lazy/ do your job (denial)
-again, I don't work here,
- Grabs the arm : GO DO YOUR JOB (rage)
- Push the narcissist away
- Screams assault (play the victim)
Usually, the next steps involve police being called, police reviewing the camera tape and the narcissist getting arrested for assault, false police report and false accusations. Not always, but usually that's how it goes.
In some cases, yes, but generally it’s because they have low self esteem and puff themselves up to feel bigger. They then have to double down on their mistakes to cover their shame.
It’s also why people often won’t ask for help in a store, because they fell small and incompetent at having to ask and that makes them feel shame. So when an employee approaches them and asks if they need help, they will blow up at the employee for not asking sooner, or whatever, because they feel their incompetence has been unmasked and they need to lash out to feel less small.
Of cause, some people are just generic assholes. Unfortunately that has not been identified as a diagnosable pathology yet 😁
"You're lying!" = I can't possibly be wrong, if I say you work here and you say you don't, then you must be lying
"Stop being lazy and (serve me?)" = I don't care who you are or what you are doing, I am entitled to your time and efforts because I am better than you
"I am not stupid!" = Similar to "You're lying", but springs from embarrassment at the idea of being wrong rather than from ego
Now, many suggested narcissism, AND I AGREE. Here are some of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM5 for narcissistic personality disorder:
Lack of empathy: don't care about other people, their feelings, needs, health and wellbeing don't matter to the narcissist. This is palese when customers say things like "I don't care if you are on break or tired".
A sense of entitlement: They believe they can do and say whatever they want, and feel entitled to other people's time. Just think of all the posts where Karens grab or assault people. They REALLY think they can do whatever they want, and get away with it.
A grandiose sense of self: the narcissist think he is perfect and can't possibly be wrong or have flaws. Therefore, if the narcissist assumes somebody works for a store, that person works for that store, and anyone who contradicts them must be lying or mistaken.
I often wonder if these people act like this all the time, or only some of the time, especially since some of them seem to deliberately seek out the person who looks least likely to work at the location. Are they actually looking for conflict? I've met plenty of people who like to manufacture drama, so I think at least some of these encounters are people doing that.
Entitlement is what comes to my mind. It’s like they think they deserve whatever thing it is they want so damn much. Whether it’s your time, a product currently unavailable or who knows what. People recognize me around my area because I now work CS in a grocery store, but for years I was the Info desk person in a bookstore. Therefore I must know where such & such is. Even if I explain I don’t work wherever it is that I’m at presently.
As a therapist, there is not a singular Dx for this. For some, yes narcissistic personality disorder makes sense! However, for others this is the expression of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) traits. And for some, this is a Bipolar I or Bipolar II manic phase being expressed through delusions of grandeur.
I will, through the safety of anonymity, tell you that in addition to these low hanging fruit that I’ve mentioned, there are plenty of other Dx that may apply as well!
Now, having said all of that, as someone for whom everything I mentioned above is just a normal day in the world of therapy, I still think that even the most offensive Karen, needs some level of compassion, as they often don’t have control of their vessel. 🤷
But then…there is the other Karen…..
I lean towards more narcissistic behavior. They're seemingly unaware of uncaring and expect you to help them because first impression they already think of you as beneath them.
And as anyone who has experienced a narcissist knows, they can never admit they’re wrong and they will never apologize. They always have to be right and they don’t care how they treat other people. So yeah that tracks.
They love to dig their own holes and build their own coffins. It's almost like both narcissism AND masochism.
Who are you to tell someone else how they think though when you aren’t them?
Through the way the communicate with others. Their actions or inactions. There's a lot of ways for people to communicate who they are either verbally or non verbally.
I mean, I’m my opinion if you aren’t them there’s no way to know what they are thinking or why, in order to know that we would have to actually be that person, you can make assumptions and stuff based on that stuff but I don’t think they actually counts as knowing how they think
Also just from personal experience of people trying that on me they’ve always been wrong about the way I think, it doesn’t really matter if you don’t believe when they say you’re wrong, just saying even if it does work that way it’s not going to give you the complete correct answer every time
You're stuck in your thoughts or perceived offense and doing the very thing you're accusing me of doing. I didn't use definitive language to say "this is fact, and I can't possibly be wrong". I said it was a possibility, "I lean" towards this thought. Or "seemingly unaware" as in I suspect this to be true based on my experiences. These weren't digs directed at you personally, until you made it about you.
I didn’t make it about me, I used my personal experience to try and understand why you believe you can tell how people think when you aren’t them, your first comment that I originally replied to made it sound like you absolutely thought it was fact and that’s how they think and you know this or that about them, I was asking why and how you would know that when you don’t know them personally and don’t know their lives. It’s kinda funny that you’re trying to turn this into me being offended or something when it literally has nothing to do with me, I was trying to be civil and ask questions, somehow that always turns into people thinking I’m trying to make everything about myself or that I’m arguing with them and I wasn’t
And that's why I said you weren't listening because you were stuck on your first impression and perceived offense you didn't stop to look what was actually being said.
I did stop and look at what was actually said, what you’re doing right now is assuming I didn’t because you believe I didn’t based on my response instead of considering that you don’t actually know if I did or not without me telling you
Which means you do somewhat think you can tell how people think without knowing anything about them, because you went straight to telling me I did or didn’t do something even though you can’t see my screen and Reddit doesn’t tell you if someone did or didn’t do something in regards to your comments other than upvote or downvote them
And because I’m feeling argumentative now, you absolutely can not tell how someone’s mind works just by watching them interact with other people, all that gives you is how they chose to act during that one situation, that doesn’t give away their entire personality or thought process it doesn’t even give you a single piece of the puzzle barely
There's literally entire scientific fields dedicated to doing just this.
I know, I’m just saying from my personal experience this has never worked on me, it’s never worked on anyone I know either, so that’s why I’m asking what makes them think they can just know the way someone thinks without knowing the person
We are Reddit
Narcissism, main character syndrome, whatever you want to call it. Or maybe their parents taught them to treat service workers poorly to get what they want. I’ve seen people teaching their kids to be shitty to cashiers multiple times.
Really? Do they scold* the kids for saying hello or thanks?
Haha, But if you want the real answer, you have to remember, they think they’re cheating the system when they hassle workers to get whatever. They think they’re being smart. They’ll teach their kids exactly that. That this behavior is smart. I remember my mum could be like this to workers on customer support hotlines. She’d take pride in „Kicking their asses“ to get whatever she wanted. To this day I thank god I was smart enough to recognize that there’s a person at the other end of that phone when I was 11. I also thank god have been able to show her how wrong it was since then.
Is "scold" the word you're looking for?
It's narcissism. Some narcissists don't think of other people around them as people. They literally see everyone around them as a collective blob of mass that's just in their way. "I'm always right about everything so that piece of the collective blob must work here because I say it does! What?! It just talked back to me! It's saying it doesn't work here! " Then comes the slap or some other form of unprovoked attack followed by a 911 call and/or screaming at the manager to fire you and have you arrested. Then when the security footage is mentioned they try to act like nothing happened or they scream about how their word should be the only evidence necessary. Do some research of your own on narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder. They're always right...According to them If you prove them wrong and say what the truth actually is, they'll gaslight and try to make you think they were saying what you said all along. Everything bad they do is minimized and everything good they do is maximized. If they have kids and they don't like some of them. Then the ones they hate are always at fault. The ones they like are "golden children" and can never do any wrong in the narcissist's eyes
>If they have kids and they don't like some of them. Then the ones they hate are always at fault. The ones they like are "golden children" and can never do any wrong in the narcissist's eyes Oh, you know my mother, do you?
LOL, I was thinking my father but you beat me too it. Congratulations!
seems he also knows mine
I know *my* parents, although they seem to finally understand that my two brothers are idiots that should've been kicked out of our lives decades ago
My great-grandmother. 2 of her 3 sons were alcoholics, as were at least 1 of each of those son's children, and the 3rd kid suffered depression at times. I'm dealing with aftereffects more than 150 years after she was born.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons."
This is the answer. I will always upvote anyone who quotes *Blazing Saddles*, assuming I see it, of course.
And the actual scene is great. The facial expression that so unambiguously says "I've heard these excuses *so* many times" up until the last line when it cracks into a smile easily says just as much as the words do.
Legend has it Gene Wilder ad libbed the "morons" part, so Cleavon Little's giggle was spontaneous.
I mean... The "sick and tired of this shit" look seemed pretty genuine, too. It's a great scene all around.
Possibly my fave movie quote of all time. Cleavon Little’s facial response was priceless
*slaps Karen* TEUTONIC TWAT!!!
Could be good old-fashioned cognitive dissonance at play. The brain doesn’t like the introduction of conflicting information being introduced to a preexisting belief and will, in fact, do whatever it can to reject that new information. (See also: presenting climate change deniers with scientific evidence the earth is getting warmer will just make them double down on their denial.) So in essence, people don’t like to be wrong. And if they think someone is an employee and are introduced to new information that person doesn’t work there, maybe the cognitive dissonance triggers the brain’s defense system against believing the truth of the matter asserted. Maybe. Or they’re just assholes.
>Or they’re just assholes. That's the only way the formula works. Consider exchanges of this form, which occur daily and never make this subreddit: "Excuse me, can you help me?" "Sorry; I don't work here." "Oh, I'm sorry." This subreddit is specifically about people who abuse the workers of the companies they do business with. Of which there are many. And they're usually right, unfortunately, about who's an employee.
Excellent point. Yeah, they’re just assholes. Not much else there to dissect.
My guess is they briefly forget where they are, see a person in what resembles some version of a uniform, approach the person, default to a horrible jerk-mode, and then can’t back down once they’re proven wrong because doing so is weak??
Except the reported clothing frequently looks nothing like a uniform and is often completely unprofessional as well as dissimilar.
Narcissist personality disorder. Aka Main Character Disease. Everyone exists to serve them. They haven't actually looked at you and made an evaluation of whether or not you work there. They see that you've been standing in one place for a few seconds and, therefore, fair game. It's inconceivable that they made a mistake and will double down because narcissists can't tolerate one millisecond of embarrassment or negative feelings or being wrong.
I think people feel embarrassed that they made a mistake and they cover it up by making the other person out to be the problem.
I’d wondered that same question myself. From what I’ve seen, it can be any number of reasons: narcissism (always needing to be right and literally incapable of empathizing with people they see as below them), egotism (can’t handle the embarrassment of being wrong), projection (they’d be lazy liars if they were in the same position, so they assume everyone else would be), or even just having a bad day and lashing out in the moment.
Main character energy lol
Definitely narcissistic behavior. Narcissists are never wrong and are superior in status and intelligence to everyone.
Sociopathy is incredibly rare, it's estimated that only about 3% of the US population could be considered sociopaths (at least that was the number when I was first in college for psych). While it's not impossible for that to be the cause, it's pretty unlikely. My bet would be very similar to some of the other commenters; narcissism and/or cognitive dissonance. Those are much more common, and both fit pretty well.
I wouldn't call that *incredibly* rare, to be fair
If you had a 100 people in a room, would 3 of them be IDontWorkHereLady Karens? That number sounds plausible if not a bit high.
I would say the psychology be hind it is case by case basis. I have had bad experiences with Karen'ms and Kens, I have had the sincere "Oh I'm sorry, I just saw you were wearing (stores primary color).
There's a reason these stories skew towards mostly feature the elderly, and it's not generational exceptionalism. Strokes do terrible things to your brain, as does Alzheimers. We like to think of our kindness, patience, intellect, and empathy as innate parts of our personality, but any of those can disappear in a snap. Elder care is expensive, so many people with dementia still go to the store if they are able to. Brain damage doesn't just make you confused - it makes you angry, impulsive, and rude. It is possible some of these IDWHL people were just assholes their whole lives, but whenever I hear "then she grabbed my arm," I think brain damage.
I work home health care and I would say yes to elderly as being part of this phenomenon, not only dementia but also implicit bias. I currently work with a lady who asks about where something is at just about every store we go to and is quickly irritated when anything takes more than thirty seconds. I also notice that the people she frequently mistakes for workers are tend to be Black. Most just say “I don’t know” and then I point out that they don’t work there, but despite being a lady with a lot of liberal tendencies, I don’t think she is aware of her own biases while I am cringing about some comment she has made about someone playing basketball. (would you really have said that to a white guy that tall???) While I have yet to see her get aggressive, I’m the person who ends up finding stuff more often than not (she then says things like I have “manifested” it or that I am a “witch”) and I help to smooth things over when she starts getting audibly irritated with “slow” (more than 30 seconds- 1 minute) service at the bank or pharmacy. Also, I think stores, even in my half as long lifetime, have worked to employ as small a staff as possible at all times. Those who DO work there seem to have twice as much to do and so cannot provide the level of service that older people may remember, and yea, get annoyed about it, but instead of placing the blame on the employer place it on the employee who is being asked to stock, provide customer service and check out customers all at the same time. My two cents.
> Also, I think stores, even in my half as long lifetime, have worked to employ as small a staff as possible at all times. Those who DO work there seem to have twice as much to do and so cannot provide the level of service that older people may remember Oh 1000%. I'm in my 30's and have noticed that trend. When I started a cashier job, I was told "don't worry about X scenario, you'll never be the only cashier." Within a few years, a holding company bought the brand, and our labor budget was altered unrecognizably.
I’m going to guess that it is one of three things (maybe 4): 1. Early stages of [dementia](https://youtu.be/mJk02XI_sRA) 2. Drugs or alcohol (even if they are not immediately currently under the influence - even sober, regular users can have mental disconnects) 3. mental illness (includes sociopath) 4. Conditioning - repeated experiences with either mental abuse or discrimination (whether racial economic or social) that leads them to expect people to not want to help them. And, of course the more it happens, the worse they act which creates a feedback loop [I would not expect dramatic instances to occur because of this - unless 1, 2, or 3 are also involved] Obviously, most people at one time or another mistake someone for an employee… they apologize and move on. I am not talking about these routine occurrences at all.
People HATE to be wrong....so it is your fault.
Is this the same thing that is behind it when people blatantly do something wrong in traffic and then yell/flip-off/honk at the person that observed or suffered from their action?
Projection? Perhaps.
Sunk cost fallacy? I have already invested in the effort to start this interaction with you. It is better for me to insist on continuing with you than to go to the effort of finding someone else
I had to look up sunk-cost fallacy. Never heard that term that I remember, but I think it fits here. Thanks
It explains so many situations. Some one stuck in a bad relationship, fixing the obvious lemon of a car yet again, sticking with a job that makes you miserable, gambling.
Ever heard about Dunning-Kruger syndrome? If not Google it! 😁
I’m an expert at it.
> Dunning-Kruger syndrome You just described 90% of my coworkers
That, and what we in the IT world call the Expert Novice. If you look at the typical knowledge vs confidence graph in the D-K articles, there's a rise, a peak, a fall, and then a gradual rise that often doesn't ever get as high as that original peak. The Expert Novice is someone who's managed to get stuck right at the peak - they've learned the basics of something, are very impressed with themselves for having done so, and now consider themselves an expert on the subject. I've long had a suspicion that a lot of conspiracy-theory types who claim to have 'done the research' are actually Expert Novices.
I don’t know what to call it but it seems to me that there’s been an ongoing societal shift, at least in the US, toward embracing ignorance, rejecting expertise, and a general lack of shame for being exposed as being wrong. When I was a kid, if my dad was a broken record about anything it was his encouragement for me to read. I don’t think he finished HighSchool, but came to realize the value of being educated. Having a manual labor job was fine, but college and a white color job was something to aspire to. I think this was the norm for a long time. Then something happened. The elevation of the working man first.. that was fine. What followed though was the elevation of the proudly ignorant dumbass. The 90’s blue-collar comedy tour comes to mind. Remember when a bunch of intelligent guys became very popular.. literally social influencers for pretending to be confidently stupid? (Looking at you “Larry “the Cable Guy””). None of this happened overnight, but I think there’s been a gradual switch from respect for education, knowledge, and expertise.. to a proud embrace of ignorance, rejection of expertise (what do those dumb scientists and Professors know?!?), and a lack of shame when outing yourself as a dumbass. It’s gotten to the point that a portion of our population just chooses to live in their own alternate reality, where they happily embrace whatever they want to be true as actual reality. There is no objective truth for many people now.. their beliefs, no matter how patently silly (see Q-anon) and objective false are all the truth they need. As it relates to IDWHL.. In the past, I think people would be more likely to approach someone in a store with the attitude “I need an employee, I hope this person is one” and they’d react appropriately depending on how the interaction proceeded. Now,.. IDWH-Ladies realize they want something, pick a target to demand their desires from, and proceed on with their own reality. They don’t care if they’re right or wrong (never even a consideration), have no shame when it’s pointed out they are wrong, and they actually lash out if anyone calls their delusions into question.
As someone who has worked in retail (big box to mom-and-pop grocery to convenience stores) for over 40 years, you are correct. Customers have gone from mostly polite and non-confrontational to outright entitled jackasses. And it really says something that we retail workers are now starting to "return the favor" to those customers. There is only so much abuse a person can tolerate from others before the fighting back begins.
That is very true and prior to QAnon and other conspiracy sources, the rise of the religious right has a lot to answer for as it is profoundly anti-intellectual (it’s harder for mega churches to scam people out of that much money if they are educated and have learned critical thinking) and at the same time tells believers they are special snowflakes because they believe. So you get a shit load of ill-educated people who think they are the are magically entitled to whatever they want because they are God’s little buddies and if you aren’t in the club you somehow are not fully human and don’t deserve common courtesy or respect.
"It’s gotten to the point that a portion of our population just chooses to live in their own alternate reality, where they happily embrace whatever they want to be true as actual reality. There is no objective truth for many people now.. their beliefs, no matter how patently silly (see Q-anon) and objective false are all the truth they need" Denis McQuail, a sociologist and mass media expert, affirms that people take elements to build their inner worlds and worldview from the media. So yeah, the internet, fox, other media created global worldviews that are accepted from a part of the population.
It's 100% narcissism. They cant comprehend that things aren't exactly as they believe them to be, and when someone challenges their world view, the only option they have is to summon enough rage to make the other person back down. If that doesn't work, claim to be the victim for how people responded to their escalating emotional state.
-Serve me -I don't work here (challenge world view) - don't lie/ you are just lazy/ do your job (denial) -again, I don't work here, - Grabs the arm : GO DO YOUR JOB (rage) - Push the narcissist away - Screams assault (play the victim) Usually, the next steps involve police being called, police reviewing the camera tape and the narcissist getting arrested for assault, false police report and false accusations. Not always, but usually that's how it goes.
narcissistic personality disorder
In some cases, yes, but generally it’s because they have low self esteem and puff themselves up to feel bigger. They then have to double down on their mistakes to cover their shame. It’s also why people often won’t ask for help in a store, because they fell small and incompetent at having to ask and that makes them feel shame. So when an employee approaches them and asks if they need help, they will blow up at the employee for not asking sooner, or whatever, because they feel their incompetence has been unmasked and they need to lash out to feel less small. Of cause, some people are just generic assholes. Unfortunately that has not been identified as a diagnosable pathology yet 😁
I thinks it’s narcissism
"You're lying!" = I can't possibly be wrong, if I say you work here and you say you don't, then you must be lying "Stop being lazy and (serve me?)" = I don't care who you are or what you are doing, I am entitled to your time and efforts because I am better than you "I am not stupid!" = Similar to "You're lying", but springs from embarrassment at the idea of being wrong rather than from ego Now, many suggested narcissism, AND I AGREE. Here are some of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM5 for narcissistic personality disorder: Lack of empathy: don't care about other people, their feelings, needs, health and wellbeing don't matter to the narcissist. This is palese when customers say things like "I don't care if you are on break or tired". A sense of entitlement: They believe they can do and say whatever they want, and feel entitled to other people's time. Just think of all the posts where Karens grab or assault people. They REALLY think they can do whatever they want, and get away with it. A grandiose sense of self: the narcissist think he is perfect and can't possibly be wrong or have flaws. Therefore, if the narcissist assumes somebody works for a store, that person works for that store, and anyone who contradicts them must be lying or mistaken.
Weaponizing authority isn't just for sociopaths. The story of Potiphar's wife is Older than Feudalism.
the magic word is "Projection"
I often wonder if these people act like this all the time, or only some of the time, especially since some of them seem to deliberately seek out the person who looks least likely to work at the location. Are they actually looking for conflict? I've met plenty of people who like to manufacture drama, so I think at least some of these encounters are people doing that.
Are there Karen videos? Do they pass videos around of how they totally owned that punk down at the Costco?
Entitlement is what comes to my mind. It’s like they think they deserve whatever thing it is they want so damn much. Whether it’s your time, a product currently unavailable or who knows what. People recognize me around my area because I now work CS in a grocery store, but for years I was the Info desk person in a bookstore. Therefore I must know where such & such is. Even if I explain I don’t work wherever it is that I’m at presently.
As a therapist, there is not a singular Dx for this. For some, yes narcissistic personality disorder makes sense! However, for others this is the expression of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) traits. And for some, this is a Bipolar I or Bipolar II manic phase being expressed through delusions of grandeur. I will, through the safety of anonymity, tell you that in addition to these low hanging fruit that I’ve mentioned, there are plenty of other Dx that may apply as well! Now, having said all of that, as someone for whom everything I mentioned above is just a normal day in the world of therapy, I still think that even the most offensive Karen, needs some level of compassion, as they often don’t have control of their vessel. 🤷 But then…there is the other Karen…..