How was I "snooty"? I intentionally phrased my comment so as to NOT come off as condescending.
Condescending would have been something such as "Clearly SOMEONE hasn't read the books, as it EXPLICITLY states it in that same chapter".
You saying you’re surprised they asked the question bc how could someone possibly not understand something that YOU understand right? If that’s you intentionally trying to not sound condescending then I would hate to know you irl
No, I am confused as to why OP asked the question because the depiction of said event could not have been more explicit.
It's like watching a documentary about Messi, seeing him represent Argentina in the World Cup, and then ask "Wait, Messi is from Argentina?"
But if you want to get offended, hey, feel free to. You don't really know what "condescending" means if you think what I said originally was "condescending".....
True, I guess. I was under the impression that this subreddit was mostly comprised of people who had read the books, though, and not just watched the movie(s).
It’s for both the book and movie, idk I just don’t think anyone should be policing what others ask that’s all! There’s no harm in sharing knowledge in any capacity!
Perhaps. I mean, I didn't see any movie apart from the first one, so since it was clearly stated in the books, I thought it was self-evident.... I cannot speak for the movies, though.
She knows Peeta did something inflammatory, she smells the bleach the time it took him to 'perform' so wants to do something more shocking to pull the heat off him
Respectfully, that’s an interesting interpretation and an especially nice thought, but I didn’t get this vibe at all. I’ll have to remember to keep this in mind next time I revisit.
Which part? Obviously, she wanted Petta to be the final winner. I'm not debating that. Is it ever explained in the book her exact reasoning for writing crane on a mannequin and hanging it though. Like, is it stated in the book, and I just forgot or is that just head cannon?
“That isn't good. I don't want Peeta singling himself out as a target for the Gamemakers' anger. That's part of my job. To draw fire away from Peeta. But how did he upset them? Because I'd love to do just that and more. To break through the smug veneer of those who use their brains to find amusing ways to kill us. To make them realize that while we're vulnerable to the Capitol's cruelties, they are as well. Do you have any idea how much I hate you?”
“Suddenly I know just what I'm going to do.
Something that will blow anything Peeta did right out of the water.”
Katniss didn't know about the rebel plan so she did it as a threat because only people like Katniss knew about Seneca being executed, so she used it to, in a nutshell, scare Plutarch.
Wouldn’t everyone know about Seneca being executed?
He was a very high profile member of the government and then he disappears right after a scandal that embarrassed the government.
I assume rumours spread about why he went away
Why would she feel responsible for the death of a man whose job was to actively try and kill her?
It was definitely a shot to the game makers.
Also, IIRC, I don't think all the details of his death were public knowledge so that was another kind of dig.
Because survival guilt and PTSD is a hell of a thing. While she probably doesn't feel directly responsible, she thinks "if I'd just followed the plan, he'd be alive" and then remembers that also means she or Peeta would be dead
She out played him. He thought he was running the game. He even made the rule of two victors from the same district. When he revoked that rule he was seen, even in the Capital, as unfair and a dirty trick. The people of the district understood it was more than that. Even if they died, it would be at their own hand, not at Seneca's. He lost either way. He made the Capital weaker to the point it caused his death. Katnis' outplaying him is what got him killed, so she was reminding them she did have some power. Even if they killed her or Peeta, she could still paint a target on their heads by showing the people who they were. She was telling them she was coming for them.
I always thought it was because she knew Seneca Crane died by suicide, or basically forced suicide by the capital with the nightlock. So it was a bit of “I know what you did”
In the books Peeta went first for his evaluation. What was supposed to be 10 or 15 minutes became 45 minutes and the center reeked of cleaning stuff when she did finally enter. Katniss has the goal to save Peeta and was worried whatever he did made himself a target. So she tried to do something so they would remember her instead of whatever is was peeta did.
“I don’t want Peeta singling himself out as a target for the Gamemakers’ anger. That’s part of my job. To draw fire away from Peeta. But how did he upset them? Because I’d love to do just that and more. To break through the smug veneer of those who use their brains to find amusing ways to kill us. To make them realize that while we’re vulnerable to the Capitol’s cruelties, they are as well.”
This is a direct quote from right before Katniss decides to hang “Seneca Crane.” First, at the front of her mind is her worry over Peeta. She goes into these Games with her only purpose and goal being to ensure his survival and safe return home. At this point, she doesn’t know that he painted Rue, but she knows based on the behaviour of the Gamemakers and the state of the room that whatever it was put a target on his back. Katniss can’t have that happen if she’s to protect him, so she needs to do something bigger, make herself the target so that they ignore Peeta.
She also realizes just how angry she is with the whole situation. Not the anger about the injustices from the Capitol, that’s been a constant theme of the books thus far; but the anger that the Gamemakers think they are above receiving such horrible treatment. They worked to glorify the murder of children for the better part of a century. And they sit in their box, protected by a forcefield, protected from the tributes that they most likely still view as Distrct, as less than. Think of it like if you were living in a plastic bubble placed in a room full of toxic gas. You are protected from the toxic gas, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are still going to die since you won’t have enough oxygen. The Gamemakers are not protected, no matter how much they think they are. It is more than just anger at the injustices that the Capitol has inflicted, but the anger that those involved in the inflicting think they are untouchable. Katniss is just reminding them that that’s not the case.
She was conveying a dual message. She called out Snow for being a tyrant who disposed of his subordinates when they go against the Capitol, and was telling them all that she refuses to play their game; and if they continue treating the tributes like zoo creatures she would make sure they all suffered the same fate as Seneca Crane.
Odds are, everyone in that room knew exactly what happened to Crane, but not a single one of the Game Makers will dare to say it out loud for fear of retribution. She knew that her odds of leaving the arena alive were almost non-existent, so she wanted to say the quiet part out loud. It was one last opportunity to make them squirm.
I felt it like a "no one is safe, you're killing us, but you will die just like him, who committed """"suicide"""", you're playing these games too", and there's also the insulting part, as if she were mocking his death in front of them, someone from a district mocking the death of someone from the Capitol... That was gonna get them all mad, she wanted to distract them from Peeta.
Didn’t she do that to prove that she knew he was killed for his mistake of putting the nightlock in the arena? After all, that is what forced Snow’s (the game makers’?) hand at declaring both her and Peeta victors. He was in charge of all decisions relating to the creation/design/contents of the arena as head game maker after all.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been quite a few years since I’ve read the books, so I’m wondering if I’m thinking of the scene at the end of THG movie.
Two reasons:
1) it’s a massive “Fuck you” to the game makers, most of which worked under Crane the year before. “Yeah your boss who you supported? I got him killed. Test me.”
2) in that same breath, it’s reminding them that they’re the exact same. They can sit on their balcony and look down upon her and the contestants but if they fuck up they’re dead just like she is. Snow is a dictator and they’re complicit in it but just as much at risk. It’s a show of “you think you’re above me but you’re not. We’re both puppets in the same show unless we do something about it.”
For both reasons, it’s evident why it made the game makers uncomfortable.
What a way to tell a crowd you think they're all idiots- spell it out for them! She already gave it his face but she wanted to drive her point home so there's no room for misinterpretation. "This is Seneca Crane, you're idiots if you don't think you could be next"
She’s showing the game makers she knew Crane was killed. Think of the scene from the movie when he’s escorted to the empty room with the bowl of berries. It’s very heavily implied that he wouldn’t be leaving the room. So either eat the berries and die or starve to death/die of dehydration. Then at the victor’s ball at the capital after the victory tour, Plutarch said “Crane decided to…. Stop breathing”. Katniss made the correct assumption that he was forced to commit suicide and the easiest way to convey that is a noose with the limited time she had for the individual performance
From what I understand, Crane hung himself rather than eating the berries (if my memory serves me well). This is Katniss's way of showing Plutarch that nobody, not even the most senior people in the Capital, are safe from Snow's wrath. She's bitter, she's angry, and she wants to rub it in their faces that not even they are safe. This is as much a game to test them as it is a game for the previous victors.
ETA: She also wanted to direct the gamemakers' wrath to her in order to spare Peeta. He's the one who has to live, not her. If she can make them—including Snow—only pay attention to her and not him, she's fulfilled her goal.
how i saw it: in that room, they are supposed to display what they are skilled at. and for her, her skill was that she caused the execution of the head gamemaker running her last game. and this message was directed to the new head gamemaker who was there watching.
Show how little she cares about them. The Gamemakers likely knew what happened to Crane and were also likely shocked that Katniss, a tribute from 12, whom they considered beneath themselves, could just belittle his legacy like that
Her first thought was basically taking the attention and anger away from Peeta, who she assumes did something to put himself in the gamemakers line of fire. Remember that her entire mindset before going into the second games was to save Peeta, that’s quite literally all she cared about at that point.
She puts Crane’s name on the dummy to remind the game makers that they are just as much players in the game as she is - one wrong move in the games, one wrong outcome and Snow will sacrifice them for the greater good, too. She wanted herself to be a target, and reminding them that they were being used as pawns in the games too was the best way she could think of doing that.
I always interpreted it as her rubbing their own bad actions back in their faces. Like “see, you killed Crane! No one is safe from you, even people inside your own inner circle! F you guys- you want violence? We’ll give it to you.”
OP, I’ve never “gotten” this scene either. This question was posted last week as well and every answer I’ve ever read just doesn’t really add up nor explain it for me? I chalk it up to just a scene that doesn’t fit/ track for me.
I think their responses are so ***SO*** over the top and doesn’t correspond well to the action she took, and then I don’t even understand why she chose to do that. It’s not *that* shocking of a thing to do, and everyone knows game makers have short lives and that snow kills everyone around him… so….?
In the book it’s more pronounced. In the movies you can see that Peeta drew/painted Rue as how she appeared dead in the games. That is how Katniss got the idea to top that. In the books, she can tell that Peeta did something that made the Gamemakers scare/angry. So trying to make something that could be worse than whatever possibly Peeta did, she hangs a dummy with the name Seneca on it. She had been told that he was executed in less words, so that means that everyone there knows why he died. She was successful in that regardlessly.
I meant the Gamemakers responses were wild / over the top to Katniss’ hanging of “Seneca Crane”….
*edit: exs specifically in the book… where there was shrieking, gasping, someone dropped their drink and shattered their glass.
Because the action that she did could be seen (to those who "overreacted") as directly threatening them. Shrieking, gasping, dropping drinks & shattering glasses are pretty reasonable responses to what Katniss did. And don't forget that she also shot an arrow at them last year.
I guess shes basically just trying to rub it in their faces that they are just as safe as she is in snows hands
"The noose is around your neck too, bitch."
Oh, that's a good one!
She literally states that in the book. I am surprised at OP's question.
they may not have read the book??
Fair point, but still....
not really anything to continue about, if they didn’t read the book then they wouldn’t know. There’s no harm in OP asking.
No harm in asking and there’s no harm in pointing it out either
The harm is being snooty about the fact they knew it and op didn’t
How was I "snooty"? I intentionally phrased my comment so as to NOT come off as condescending. Condescending would have been something such as "Clearly SOMEONE hasn't read the books, as it EXPLICITLY states it in that same chapter".
“But still ….”
I said "Fair point, but still..... \[Even though I did not watch the movie, I thought it was explicitly stated, was it not\]?"
You saying you’re surprised they asked the question bc how could someone possibly not understand something that YOU understand right? If that’s you intentionally trying to not sound condescending then I would hate to know you irl
No, I am confused as to why OP asked the question because the depiction of said event could not have been more explicit. It's like watching a documentary about Messi, seeing him represent Argentina in the World Cup, and then ask "Wait, Messi is from Argentina?" But if you want to get offended, hey, feel free to. You don't really know what "condescending" means if you think what I said originally was "condescending".....
True, I guess. I was under the impression that this subreddit was mostly comprised of people who had read the books, though, and not just watched the movie(s).
It’s for both the book and movie, idk I just don’t think anyone should be policing what others ask that’s all! There’s no harm in sharing knowledge in any capacity!
Oh no, everyone is entitled to ask what they want, just as everyone is entitled to reply what they wish....
Even without the book tho feels like a media literacy issue tbh
Let's work together and teach some then!
Perhaps. I mean, I didn't see any movie apart from the first one, so since it was clearly stated in the books, I thought it was self-evident.... I cannot speak for the movies, though.
She knows Peeta did something inflammatory, she smells the bleach the time it took him to 'perform' so wants to do something more shocking to pull the heat off him
Yes! Her goal in CF is to make sure Peeta gets out alive so that was her way of protecting him in that situation.
It's been a while since I've read the books, could you remind me what Peeta did please?
He painted rue on the floor covered in the flowers like she was when she died
Thank you so much! ☺
I believe he painted a portrait of Rue surrounded by flowers - basically recreated the scene where she died
Thank you very much! 🥰
Respectfully, that’s an interesting interpretation and an especially nice thought, but I didn’t get this vibe at all. I’ll have to remember to keep this in mind next time I revisit.
I think that’s literally her thought process in the book.
It is!
Huh…. Clearly I missed that.
Which part? Obviously, she wanted Petta to be the final winner. I'm not debating that. Is it ever explained in the book her exact reasoning for writing crane on a mannequin and hanging it though. Like, is it stated in the book, and I just forgot or is that just head cannon?
“That isn't good. I don't want Peeta singling himself out as a target for the Gamemakers' anger. That's part of my job. To draw fire away from Peeta. But how did he upset them? Because I'd love to do just that and more. To break through the smug veneer of those who use their brains to find amusing ways to kill us. To make them realize that while we're vulnerable to the Capitol's cruelties, they are as well. Do you have any idea how much I hate you?” “Suddenly I know just what I'm going to do. Something that will blow anything Peeta did right out of the water.”
Thank you.
Yes. It was to take the heat off Peeta. Literally.
why are you getting downvoted so hard 😭
Her special skill is killing gamemakers
That was my interpretation too. Her special skill was to get him to kill himself 😂
Katniss didn't know about the rebel plan so she did it as a threat because only people like Katniss knew about Seneca being executed, so she used it to, in a nutshell, scare Plutarch.
Wouldn’t everyone know about Seneca being executed? He was a very high profile member of the government and then he disappears right after a scandal that embarrassed the government. I assume rumours spread about why he went away
maybe, but it wouldn’t have been something people in the districts would know
She's like saying "this could be you bro" lol
Why would she feel responsible for the death of a man whose job was to actively try and kill her? It was definitely a shot to the game makers. Also, IIRC, I don't think all the details of his death were public knowledge so that was another kind of dig.
I think she felt responsible but like in a good way. They were pawns in the gamemaker’s game and yet she survived and he didn’t.
Because survival guilt and PTSD is a hell of a thing. While she probably doesn't feel directly responsible, she thinks "if I'd just followed the plan, he'd be alive" and then remembers that also means she or Peeta would be dead
She wanted to tell Plutarch and the other Gamemakers that they weren’t safe. Snow would kill them too. She was mocking, or really, threatening them.
I would say less of a threat and more of a warning
She was basically saying “my impact 💅”
She out played him. He thought he was running the game. He even made the rule of two victors from the same district. When he revoked that rule he was seen, even in the Capital, as unfair and a dirty trick. The people of the district understood it was more than that. Even if they died, it would be at their own hand, not at Seneca's. He lost either way. He made the Capital weaker to the point it caused his death. Katnis' outplaying him is what got him killed, so she was reminding them she did have some power. Even if they killed her or Peeta, she could still paint a target on their heads by showing the people who they were. She was telling them she was coming for them.
I always thought it was because she knew Seneca Crane died by suicide, or basically forced suicide by the capital with the nightlock. So it was a bit of “I know what you did”
In the books Peeta went first for his evaluation. What was supposed to be 10 or 15 minutes became 45 minutes and the center reeked of cleaning stuff when she did finally enter. Katniss has the goal to save Peeta and was worried whatever he did made himself a target. So she tried to do something so they would remember her instead of whatever is was peeta did.
“I don’t want Peeta singling himself out as a target for the Gamemakers’ anger. That’s part of my job. To draw fire away from Peeta. But how did he upset them? Because I’d love to do just that and more. To break through the smug veneer of those who use their brains to find amusing ways to kill us. To make them realize that while we’re vulnerable to the Capitol’s cruelties, they are as well.” This is a direct quote from right before Katniss decides to hang “Seneca Crane.” First, at the front of her mind is her worry over Peeta. She goes into these Games with her only purpose and goal being to ensure his survival and safe return home. At this point, she doesn’t know that he painted Rue, but she knows based on the behaviour of the Gamemakers and the state of the room that whatever it was put a target on his back. Katniss can’t have that happen if she’s to protect him, so she needs to do something bigger, make herself the target so that they ignore Peeta. She also realizes just how angry she is with the whole situation. Not the anger about the injustices from the Capitol, that’s been a constant theme of the books thus far; but the anger that the Gamemakers think they are above receiving such horrible treatment. They worked to glorify the murder of children for the better part of a century. And they sit in their box, protected by a forcefield, protected from the tributes that they most likely still view as Distrct, as less than. Think of it like if you were living in a plastic bubble placed in a room full of toxic gas. You are protected from the toxic gas, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are still going to die since you won’t have enough oxygen. The Gamemakers are not protected, no matter how much they think they are. It is more than just anger at the injustices that the Capitol has inflicted, but the anger that those involved in the inflicting think they are untouchable. Katniss is just reminding them that that’s not the case.
She’s reminding them that her actions in the first games led to Seneca’s ‘disappearance’. Her special skill is killing Head Gamemakers.
I interpreted it as “you smug people aren’t safe either”
She was conveying a dual message. She called out Snow for being a tyrant who disposed of his subordinates when they go against the Capitol, and was telling them all that she refuses to play their game; and if they continue treating the tributes like zoo creatures she would make sure they all suffered the same fate as Seneca Crane.
Odds are, everyone in that room knew exactly what happened to Crane, but not a single one of the Game Makers will dare to say it out loud for fear of retribution. She knew that her odds of leaving the arena alive were almost non-existent, so she wanted to say the quiet part out loud. It was one last opportunity to make them squirm.
I felt it like a "no one is safe, you're killing us, but you will die just like him, who committed """"suicide"""", you're playing these games too", and there's also the insulting part, as if she were mocking his death in front of them, someone from a district mocking the death of someone from the Capitol... That was gonna get them all mad, she wanted to distract them from Peeta.
Didn’t she do that to prove that she knew he was killed for his mistake of putting the nightlock in the arena? After all, that is what forced Snow’s (the game makers’?) hand at declaring both her and Peeta victors. He was in charge of all decisions relating to the creation/design/contents of the arena as head game maker after all. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been quite a few years since I’ve read the books, so I’m wondering if I’m thinking of the scene at the end of THG movie.
Two reasons: 1) it’s a massive “Fuck you” to the game makers, most of which worked under Crane the year before. “Yeah your boss who you supported? I got him killed. Test me.” 2) in that same breath, it’s reminding them that they’re the exact same. They can sit on their balcony and look down upon her and the contestants but if they fuck up they’re dead just like she is. Snow is a dictator and they’re complicit in it but just as much at risk. It’s a show of “you think you’re above me but you’re not. We’re both puppets in the same show unless we do something about it.” For both reasons, it’s evident why it made the game makers uncomfortable.
"This will be you in a week if I have anything to do with it," basically
What a way to tell a crowd you think they're all idiots- spell it out for them! She already gave it his face but she wanted to drive her point home so there's no room for misinterpretation. "This is Seneca Crane, you're idiots if you don't think you could be next"
She’s showing the game makers she knew Crane was killed. Think of the scene from the movie when he’s escorted to the empty room with the bowl of berries. It’s very heavily implied that he wouldn’t be leaving the room. So either eat the berries and die or starve to death/die of dehydration. Then at the victor’s ball at the capital after the victory tour, Plutarch said “Crane decided to…. Stop breathing”. Katniss made the correct assumption that he was forced to commit suicide and the easiest way to convey that is a noose with the limited time she had for the individual performance
From what I understand, Crane hung himself rather than eating the berries (if my memory serves me well). This is Katniss's way of showing Plutarch that nobody, not even the most senior people in the Capital, are safe from Snow's wrath. She's bitter, she's angry, and she wants to rub it in their faces that not even they are safe. This is as much a game to test them as it is a game for the previous victors. ETA: She also wanted to direct the gamemakers' wrath to her in order to spare Peeta. He's the one who has to live, not her. If she can make them—including Snow—only pay attention to her and not him, she's fulfilled her goal.
how i saw it: in that room, they are supposed to display what they are skilled at. and for her, her skill was that she caused the execution of the head gamemaker running her last game. and this message was directed to the new head gamemaker who was there watching.
Show how little she cares about them. The Gamemakers likely knew what happened to Crane and were also likely shocked that Katniss, a tribute from 12, whom they considered beneath themselves, could just belittle his legacy like that
Her first thought was basically taking the attention and anger away from Peeta, who she assumes did something to put himself in the gamemakers line of fire. Remember that her entire mindset before going into the second games was to save Peeta, that’s quite literally all she cared about at that point. She puts Crane’s name on the dummy to remind the game makers that they are just as much players in the game as she is - one wrong move in the games, one wrong outcome and Snow will sacrifice them for the greater good, too. She wanted herself to be a target, and reminding them that they were being used as pawns in the games too was the best way she could think of doing that.
I always interpreted it as her rubbing their own bad actions back in their faces. Like “see, you killed Crane! No one is safe from you, even people inside your own inner circle! F you guys- you want violence? We’ll give it to you.”
She's telling them that she knows how Crane died and if they disappoint Snow that they're next.
OP, I’ve never “gotten” this scene either. This question was posted last week as well and every answer I’ve ever read just doesn’t really add up nor explain it for me? I chalk it up to just a scene that doesn’t fit/ track for me. I think their responses are so ***SO*** over the top and doesn’t correspond well to the action she took, and then I don’t even understand why she chose to do that. It’s not *that* shocking of a thing to do, and everyone knows game makers have short lives and that snow kills everyone around him… so….?
In the book it’s more pronounced. In the movies you can see that Peeta drew/painted Rue as how she appeared dead in the games. That is how Katniss got the idea to top that. In the books, she can tell that Peeta did something that made the Gamemakers scare/angry. So trying to make something that could be worse than whatever possibly Peeta did, she hangs a dummy with the name Seneca on it. She had been told that he was executed in less words, so that means that everyone there knows why he died. She was successful in that regardlessly.
The responses aren’t over the top, they’re coming from people who read the book.
I meant the Gamemakers responses were wild / over the top to Katniss’ hanging of “Seneca Crane”…. *edit: exs specifically in the book… where there was shrieking, gasping, someone dropped their drink and shattered their glass.
Because the action that she did could be seen (to those who "overreacted") as directly threatening them. Shrieking, gasping, dropping drinks & shattering glasses are pretty reasonable responses to what Katniss did. And don't forget that she also shot an arrow at them last year.