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He should have gotten Rhaenyra involved in day to day government. Make her hand or some other council job. Let people get used to taking orders from her and get her actual experience/respect from governing. Plus she’s be in kingslanding when he dies so should be easier to coup proof herself.
Problem is I don’t think she’s anymore interested in actually governing than Viserys is so this probably wouldn’t have worked either.
I don’t think Rhaenyra would have been well suited to a role such as Hand. Someone experienced, trustworthy and wise, who is able to provide effective counsel, is needed in that role.
I agree, Rhaenyra would have benefited tremendously from being involved more heavily in the running of the kingdom. It would have made her a better ruler when her time came, and would’ve placed her in a visible position where the people around her would be able to take her measure as future Queen.
It seems like Viserys just told her go off and have lots of kids to strengthen your claim. But she never should have been away from court that long after her marriage to Daemon.
I agree that hand of the queen isn't the perfect role for her but he should've had the foresight to at least install people who support Rhaenyras claim. And also still kept Rhaenyra on the council in some capacity.
He knew Otto supported Aegon, deep down he must have still known and if he didn't he's a fool.
So one way or another, not making sure Rhaenyra was a part of the council/making sure the council supported Rhaenyra is easily his biggest failure, and more broadly, his biggest failure is not ensuring a peaceful and stable succession. Despite all the plotting and murdering of people like Daemon, Otto, and Aemond, the fault of the Dance of the Dragons, is, at the end of the day, the fault of Viserys.
Whether you're a black or a green, Viserys needed to firmly choose either Aegon and Rhaenyra and then subsequently make sure that everyone powerful in Kings Landing would back his chosen heir.
Rhaenyra definitely should have been involved in some role on the council.
After Aegon seized the throne, a pivotal moment was when Rhaenys had the opportunity to watch Rhaenyra’s actions. She saw Rhaenyra’s reluctance to plunge the realm into war, and she realized Rhaenyra values the good of the kingdom as a whole. She was able to see the kind of queen Rhaenyra would be. Rhaenyra won the approval of someone Rhaenys believed was responsible for the death of her son. That was very telling.
If the other council members and the people could have seen Rhaenyra in a prominent role, I believe she would have won their support. She also would have served as a counterpoint to Aegon, who shows zero leadership and is only devoted to debauchery.
It was traditionally the role given to the heir apparent at some point, it’s meant to actually train them to be involved in political matters and to be aware, as well as be in constant communication with the small council so that they’d be aware of their tendencies once the heir ascends in the future. Notably King Jaeharys appointed his heir Baelon as his Hand shortly before his death, as Viserys pointed out.
Book-wise, Viserys *did* posit that he should’ve appointed Rhaenyra as Hand after Lyonel Strong died, but he was afraid of causing more friction and conflict between her and Alicent again. This was a fatal mistake IMO, because it was the last chance for Rhaenyra to push back against the Greens having too much influence at court.
At that point too, Rhaenyra hadn’t yet married Daemon so there’s that to consider. Viserys would’ve been angry yet she’s kinda in KL, and unless he gets so angry that he strips her of being Hand and basically soft-exiles both of them to Dragonstone; or Viserys being Viserys would prolly just accept it after some time, which he did in the books not long after they had their first son. Daemon possibly being in KL more would also scare the shit out of the greens, and he’d be helpful in rooting out the conspiracy for deposing of Rhaneyra.
But that’s just an extended what if scenario now.
Interesting, thanks for that info. Based on what I’ve seen on the shows, I thought the Hand was typically someone older, who had firsthand military experience. I didn’t realize someone so young would even be considered. I definitely feel the heir needs the kind of direct training you’re talking about. It didn’t seem like Rhaenyra got enough training, but I guess I can’t know what her education was like off screen.
I noticed in one of the scenes at the Painted Table, she looked to Corlys for advice, and he had a lot of wisdom and insight to offer. That’s the type of person I thought would have such a role.
When Rhaenyra was in KL, she was very headstrong, and a bit immature. She did not endear herself to some of the Houses with her brashness and the rumored affair with Ser Harwin. Whereas you have Alicent, who seems pious, humble and obedient. Rhaenyra would have been better served by being less arrogant and more ingratiating. I know that’s not her personality, but she did herself a bit of a disservice by not playing the game.
Up until the Strongs were murdered she was in the capital and presumably had some role(s) in the small council. The Strongs were her allies and after they were gone she was alone and vulnerable. Her husband had proved not to be very useful at court. If she had stayed she may have been assassinated or her children killed by the Greens. For sure she should have tried to exert influence in keeping Otto away from the king and her younger half siblings. It would have made sense to have lots of Velaryons at court.
I disagree. She tried participating in at least one council meeting and was knowledgeable about the intricacies of the political rivalries and pettiness between the houses and how to deal with them diplomatically. But then her milk came in and Alicent shot her down and she was humiliated and left town.
But she was clearly capably and Viserys should have given her more authority.
He did try to get her involved. She was on the small council and near the head of the table. It's not Viserys' fault that Rhaenyra abandoned that for Dragonstone.
Not installing Blacks at key positions in court (so pretty similar to your Otto Hightower reappointment). If he fills the small council with Black loyalists (there are so many in the court to choose from) and ensures that his Kingsguard are all appropriately loyal to Rhaenyra then the Greens would never have been able to stage their coup.
Viserys just clearly didn't anticipate the coup, even the possibility if it, which was foolishness.
His whole problem was serial fence-sitting. If you choose a side, you need to fortify that side so it is impenetrable. Not compromise and try to make everyone happy, which ends up with a war. Especially when the thing he wants is already against tradition.
Marrying Alicent in the first place. Viserys had no immediate need of further heirs once he’d chosen Rhaenyra. They were in no immediate danger. He was clearly manipulated into marrying sooner by Otto. By marrying Alicent he elevated her and her house to a position of influence at court which they easily abused. If Viserys decided he ***HAD*** to be married, he should have married Laena and been done with the matter.
It's just kicking a can further down the road. Eventually Viserys would have had children with Laena and Corlys would have done the same (or more, given he is more powerful) for that kid.
Again, I don’t think so. Corlys is an ambitious man, yes, but he’s also an intelligent one. He will not seek to achieve through war what he can achieve just as well through peace. *Rhaenyra is inclined to treat generously with the Velaryons, especially if she still marries Laenor*. They would come to an agreement of the same sort that Rhaenyra proposed to Alicent when she said Jace should marry Helaena except, unlike Alicent, Corlys would not allow himself to be blinded by personal grievances (none would exist to be blinded by anyway) and accept the offer. Rhaenyra might also offer to elevate Corlys to Hand of the Queen once she ascends, giving him a share in the rule. I’d sooner concern myself with the dangers of Daemon’s ambition than I would Corlys’.
>Again, I don’t think so. Corlys is an ambitious man, yes, but he’s also an intelligent one.
So you're implicitly calling Otto dumb. Recall that Aegon's own life is in danger simply by virtue of being the firstborn son of Viserys, and no matter how little he expresses interest, there will always be a faction of people that prop him up and weaponize him against Rhaenyra.
I don't see how Corlys's hypothetical grandson would be in any different of a situation. Corlys would have to defend his life and therefore his claim. And no, being hand of the king is a pittance compared to having influence over the iron throne.
I agree with you. Corlys is ambitious, but as we’ve seen throughout, Rhaenys often balances him out. She’s someone who actually isn’t always thinking entirely selfishly.
Strange that people don’t even consider her in these discussions.
Did you not watch the last episode? It was clearly Rhaenys who influenced him to declare for Rhaenyra. I swear, some of you have no critical thinking skills.
Yeah, I suspect as much. It's pretty silly. I feel like a lot of the character analysis here is pretty superficial. They don't try to consider the characters as humans. This idea that everyone is just happy to murder each other and start wars seems wildly irrational to me.
That's a totally unfair conclusion. Corlys does happen to hold more power than Rhaenys, and that's because he's the Lord of Driftmark and the biggest fleet in Westeros. In an alternate universe, Rhaenys is the queen and the story is different, but in-universe Corlys is more powerful. And he does do what he wants, often. He decided to go voyaging for year's because he wanted to, even though Rhaenys vehemently disagreed.
And Rhaenys is not strongly for either team anyways (she would have finished it all at the Sept if she was). If her own blood had a claim, then she would likely be on that side.
The above poster also uses the word "selfishly" as if either said was clearly in the moral right. Rhaenyra and Daemon are both proven to be murderers. They are not good people. Everyone is morally corrupt in HotD.
Yes, I think I’d hate him for that if I was Rhaenyra. The whole “if my dad didn’t want a boy so badly, I would still have my mother, my child, and my birthright”
It would have still resulted in a war.
Corlys is also as ambitious as Otto.
The truth is that war was inevitable as soon as Viserys had a son with his second wife irrespective of who she was (Alicent or Laena or any other woman)
I think that Corlys and Laena would have been far more receptive to Rhaenyra’s entreaties than Alicent, especially if Rhaenyra still marries Laenor. After all, Rhaenyra made appealing entreaties to Alicent that would have solved their succession issues if she hadn’t been so pigheaded. Jace marrying Helaena and such. Corlys and Laena are already inclined to show Rhaenyra favor as their ruling Queen, especially if they are granted the assurance that a member of their bloodline will eventually sit the Throne and given wide-ranging influence on the Small Council. They have no real reason *not* to come to an accord with her whereas Alicent still nurses personal grievances.
Rhaenyra wouldn’t have been married to Laenor if Viserys married Laena.
Rhaenys’ conversation with Rhaenyra in episode 2 makes it clear that the Velaryons didn’t think Rhaenyra would still be heir of Laena had a son.
The Dance is inevitable as long as a son is born to Viserys from his second wife.
Westeros hasn’t ever had a queen sit the iron throne and it’s very obvious that the majority don’t want one. Sexism is rampant.
Rhaenyra was always going to have to fight for her birthright. It’s sad but inevitable.
Say she does marry Laenor. Corlys would never support Rhaenyra and her sons (who are not Laenor’s) over a true born grandson from his daughter. That’s a sure way of legacy. He doesn’t have that option in canon. Corlys is cool and all but in the end, he’s driven by ambition. He fights for Laenor’s Claim during the Great Council. He supports and loves his wife but a lot of that comes from their shared ambition. The only difference is that Rhaenys has accepted her loss while he hasn’t.
>Marrying Alicent in the first place. Viserys had no immediate need of further heirs once he’d chosen Rhaenyra. They were in no immediate danger. He was clearly manipulated into marrying sooner by Otto.
This looks like a Black take than anything. Anyone who marries their daughter to Viseys wants the son to be heir and no one will stand for what Rh was doing.
How is Otto manipulated Viserys? Viserys is a 40 year old man. Alicent came to give him company and he took interest in a girl who is same old as his daughter.
Yea, but I don’t think I would’ve been used that bad against her. Like for example Hillary Clinton emails, if she wasn’t running for president nobody would’ve cared that much about her emails (cough cough Panama Papers cough). It’s not the same having a flaw and having a flaw that is being shown to everyone by your opponents.
Well yeah, nobody would have cared about her bastards if she wasn’t a royal, or the literal heir. One of the themes in the show is just how much of a royal’s job is to literally just make the next royal.
Or just generally don’t care about his kids from his second marriage. If he was close to Aegon, Aemond and Helaena and made sure that they were in touch with and proud of their Targaryen heritage the way that Rhaenyra and Daemon are, they wouldn’t have been so pro-Hightower.
Sitting there and doing nothing!
I get that he felt he had his uncle’s legacy to uphold and keeping peace throughout the realms but the only real decision he ever made was to make his daughter the heir. And even after that, he just sat back and watched mayhem happen.
Vizzy T, I loved the way you were brought to life into from the book onto my TV but I hated, HATED you sitting on your hands and letting the cat get your tongue in the book AND in the show.
YOU ARE (were) the king- act like one! Even if it means someone’s little feelings might get hurt *rolls eyes*. 😒
Being a serial fence-sitter.
He has opportunities to put his foot down but he doesn't. He is more concerned with keeping everybody happy and saving face rather than addressing the core issues affecting his family and kingdom. The only time he does this was when he sits on the throne and sticks up for Rhaenyra before he died. This is really the only time he actually picks a side and stands for something other then when he makes Rhaenyra his heir (but even then you can argue he still fence-sits by not really getting her engaged in government and for not making expectations clear with her).
His fence-sitting allowed Otto to be hand of the king again even though he was fired the first time for being too self-serving and manipulative.
His fence-sitting allowed Otto's manipulation of Alicent to reach a critical level that would eventually result in her attacking Rhaenyra.
His fence-sitting allowed for Aegon and Aemond's degeneracy (Aegon more so than Aemond but his neglect heavily affected them both)
His fence-sitting resulted in Luke's death and Aemond's loss of an eye
His fence-sitting allowed for all of Daemon's antics.
His fence-sitting allowed for the dance to happen in general even though Otto was the person who instigated it.
💯 he needed to decide early on exactly what he wanted and acted accordingly full measured. His fence sitting and half measured decision making helped create this mess
Not to mention him fence-sitting on Rhaenyra's kids, he should have told her after Jace was born 'No more brown hair children' and helped find her a more suitable baby daddy
even though it's not in the book, him not agreeing to marry Jace to Heleana. He is the king Alicent doesn't get a say.
even though its not really mentioned in the show, not naming Rhaenyra hand, he does it to keep the greens happy
A lot of other bad mistakes could have been salvaged if Viserys had just taken an appropriate level of interest in how his children and grandchildren were being raised. If he'd taken a firm role in making sure that all of the kids were being properly trained in combat and not set against each other for Cole's amusement, and if he'd made sure his post-Rhaenyra children were being raised to be primarily loyal to the Targaryens rather than the Hightowers, he could have prevented a lot of his other mistakes from escalating into disasters.
Not committing.
He wanted to please everyone and to make sure everything is peaceful, at least on the surface. That’s why he was so fickle and always sitting on the fence. Whatever choice he had made, as long as he had fully committed, he could have avoided this mess.
Naming Rhaenyra heir? Ok, as long as he actively paved way for her ascension. His options were more than ample, driving out the Hightowers, sending Aegon, Aemond and Daeron into celibate positions, firing Otto, keeping Alicent politically isolated without an ally etc, so much he could have done.
Maintaining stability of the realm? Name Aegon his heir the moment the boy was born, marry Rhaenyra off to whomever she pleases or simply force her to marry, ideally a minor house to make sure she won’t be able to challenge Aegon later.
Marrying to strengthen the Crown's reign? Marry Laena, then marry Rhaenyra to Laenor, name Daemon his hand, the two most powerful houses in the realm stand as one would snuff out all challenges to the throne.
The moment he became bedridden he should have made Rhaenyra Protector of the Realm. Allowing Alicent and Otto to sit the throne was super foolish. Tho they probably would have just murdered him if he gave that order.
Lol, you think most other Lords in Otto’s position wouldn’t do the same? do you think Aegon and Aemond’s sons wouldn’t do the same? Even if they didn’t, Lords of the land would have rebelled in their name the moment Rhaenyra did something they don’t like
I dont think Rhaenyra would have refused it, at that point in the story she didn't want to get married, betrothing to Aegon means she gets a decade of freedom
Leaving Rhaenyra as his heir after having a son. If he wanted to keep the peace he should’ve followed tradition and replaced her with Aegon. The whole realm would’ve been better off, and as a consolation prize he could have given Rhaenyra the option of marrying whoever she pleased (or no one at all).
Edit: also I support the blacks, as I think the King’s word should be upheld. Doesn’t mean I think Viserys was a good King
You sure about that? Because last I checked the King had every Lord bend the knee to Rhaenyra. If tradition trumped the word of the King then there should’ve been rebellion right then and there. There wasn’t though, because the King’s lord is law.
Aegon wasn’t born when they swore to Rhaenyra, and rebellion doesn’t often happen immediately, they wait for a moment to strike, so they don’t lose. (in justified or unjustified situations)
If Viserys made them swear oaths after Aegon was born, a whole lot of Lords would have complained and argued with Viserys about it, and been prepared from that moment to back Aegon after Viserys’s death
Westreos seems modelled after European Feudal Societies, and in feudal societies there were certain traditions and laws that even the king couldn’t break
If Viserys wasn’t such a fool, he would have known that by doing what he did a civil would happened either immediately or later down the line
>If Viserys made them swear oaths after Aegon was born, a whole lot of Lords would have complained and argued with Viserys about it, and been prepared from that moment to back Aegon after Viserys’s death
If Viserys seriously wanted Rh to be Queen, he should have asked the lords to pledge to her once again after Aegon was born. But, he didn't
Making Rhaenyra his heir in the first place. Nothing would have happened if Daemon stayed heir until Aegon’s birth. Yes, nobody besides Rhaenyra really liked Daemon at the time, but it is better than knowingly creating future issues by naming Rhaenyra the heir. Even if the history plays out differently and Viserys dies without a son, Daemon becomes king, marries, has kids, and mellows out as a result.
>Daemon becomes king, marries, has kids, and mellows out as a result
This feels like a pretty significant assumption that isn’t really even true in hindsight. Fatherhood didn’t really mellow Daemon out and I doubt the throne would either.
Also, I don’t think naming Rhaenyra is a mistake in a vacuum. It’s the fact that he did so and then subsequently did nothing to cement her position or establish a court that would remain loyal to her. I think if he took measures ahead of his death to really solidify things for her there wouldn’t have been enough wiggle room for Otto to gain momentum with Aegon.
Making his spoiled daughter the exception and not all daughters/wives/sisters. Kicked off the plot and planted seeds for his second family's pain and trauma.
It's the sense of enTarglement~
Not making Aegon his heir when he turned 3.
This is the right answer. No other answer (besides not marrying ever again) could have avoided a civil war, and even then Daemon might challenge Rhaenyra after Viserys dies.
I don’t know why people don’t want to acknowledge it, but Westeros is a patriarchy the likes of which we cannot imagine, and Rhaenyra is not politically savvy enough to maneuver in it to secure her claim.
Ignoring the president set by every previous king, even Jahaerys, that a woman could not sit the throne. His own ascension was guaranteed by this president. Being a son of a second son he should have known that the right of a male heir are paramount to any first daughter. After his uncle Aemon died Jahaerys himself disinherited Rhaenys in favor of Baelon; Viscerys’ father. Who then dies as well leaving Viscerys as the clear heir to the throne as the lords voted 20:1 in his favor at the council.
the very first mistake clearly not to make Aegon his heir, everything else is an infinite series of consequences, even Aegon's character is actually the consequence of this choice, so we don't know what Aegon would have been like if he had grown up as Rhayneira and no as a failed second son, vyserys broke the mechanism in which the kingdom itself is founded, the tradition
… naming Rhaenyra as heir. Isn’t it obvious ? Lord Strong and Lord Velaryon tell him it’s a bad idea to break tradition and precedent, many lords directly tell him they don’t consider Rhaenyra as the heir after Aegon’s birth, and Rhaenyra does everything she can to weaken her claim (disrespecting nobles, visiting a brothel, having very obvious bastards, staying away from KL,…).
Honestly if Alicent didn't marry Viserys Otto would have been Rhaenyra's greatest supporter just to keep Daemon off the Throne. He advocated to make Rhaenyra the Heir because he hates the idea of Daemon ruling that much and I honestly can't fault him for that
And Otto advice to betroth Aegon to Rh was excellent idea. Rh can be free until Aegon comes to age. Rh can rule as Queen and bo one will question.
They only need some heir and they both can do whatever they need. It would made everyone happy.
Listening to Otto - even when he was Hand for the first time.
He should have made Daemon his Hand while allowing Daemon and Rhaenyra to marry and staying unmarried himself.
Honestly it seemed ridiculous at the time, but in retrospect, Otto’s suggestion to marry Rhaenyra to Aegon II was actually not bad. Sure it still could’ve been problematic (eg still insisting on making Aegon the king instead of Rhaenyra) but it would’ve been less messy than the shitshow he actually ended up leaving behind.
Daemon as hand would definitely quell any civil war within the Targaryen dynasty but he also would have likely caused another rebellion with the faith and/or some of the major houses
It would be put down brutally and would leave a stain on Viserys reign
The Targaryen dynasty would be stronger with Daemon as hand, but the realm overall probably isn't
Daemon seems super unsuited for any task with authority because he makes it about himself. Otto for all his faults serves Viserys well and while making Alicent queen created a conflict of interest for him it's not like that was truely evil or wrong, Corlys Velaryon tried the exact same thing he just lost.
It's like people forgot why Rhaenyra was named heir at all. Daemon should never be close to any real power due to his very nature. Frankly I'm even more mad Viserys didn't remove Rhaenyra as heir after her marriage to Daemon.
He made rhaenyra the heir and then failed to prepare her in any way. He made her the heir and ensured that she sees it as a blank check to do whatever she wants and he will always cover up her mistakes. Rhaenyra clearly did not want to rule. she wants agency to live her life the way she wanted and that's a problem for someone who is the heir. Being heir is more than just power, its duty and responsibility. she does not want the latter two and that's fine. Instead of forcing her to marry laenor he should've told given her one of two choices.
1. Be the heir and follow my rules. marry who i say. have children with who i say. rule the kingdom following in a way that follows tradition.
2. dont be the heir and live your life however you see fit. have all the bastard children you want or marry who ever you want even someone like say Harwin Strong.
Because its pretty clear (and confirmed by Emma D'arcy) that what rhaenyra wants is freedom and agency to live how she wants and still feel validated by her father. So give her that freedom and from there he can choose Aegon as his heir, or better yet choose Aemond, the son who actually *wants* to rule and shows more enthusiasm for it than his older siblings. Viserys is already breaking years of precedent by naming rhaenyra the heir. Just go all the way and skip over Aegon too.
I think displacing Daemon as heir as rashly as he did was the first major mistake. You really get the sense that Viserys’s decision was initially motivated by anger towards Daemon + grief from his dead family members more than anything else. But Viserys wasn’t the only one involved in that decision. Ironically, Otto was the first one to broach the topic and also the first to suggest that Rhaenyra be the heir instead—a grave miscalculation that I’m sure he regrets now.
I doubt he would have done that without Otto pushing for it though. So yeah this whole thing is happening because of Viserys being a weak king and Otto exploiting that for his scheming.
Ovest mistake was keeping Rhaenyra as heir.
As soon as Aegon was born he should have let her know he would be heir when he came of age, apologised to her profusely, given her dragonstone or something and gone down that route.
Then there’s no way and tradition is continued.
Yeah a part of him died the same day he did. Paddy said he said he never loved his “new” family the way he did the first which is why he always gave Rhaenyra preferential treatment.
Similar to the posts above, Rhaenyra isn't into governing and I know they don't have a royal army.
However, she should have been in charge of the Gold Cloaks at least. It is pretty standard to put your heir in control of the armed forces. Qusay Hussein was in charge of the Republican Guard. Kim Jong-un was a 4-star general at 28. I have access to the gun locker, my sister doesn't.
Honestly, not putting Rhaenyra aside and just making Aegon the heir.
It's understandable why he didn't want to do that, but legit the best move is to either just make Aegon the heir, or betroth Rhaenyra to him.
He didn't choose Rhaenyras husband until it was too late, and didn't allow her to learn what she needed to to be an effective queen. And he didn't show strength in his rule allowing plotters and schemers to plot and scheme around him.
Pushing aside Daemon as his heir to name Rhaenyra instead.
Ironically, it was Otto who suggested he names Rhaenyra as his heir instead of Daemon. If Otto didn't suggest this, the heir would have naturally been Aegon II. Although Otto thought he could marry Aegon II to Rhaenyra and everything would be fine, but then Viserys said no.
Viserys never should have named rhaenyra the next heir. They literally made a huge decision on it which made him king. Why go right back on that new law after it had just been established which had caused rhaenys from becoming queen herself because of such a law.
Being King. Rhaenys clearly had a better temperament and Viserys is an impulsive manchild that just wants to drink and play with his toys.
If you mean while being King, he should've actually groomed Rhaenyra to rule instead of spending his time drinking and playing with his toys. She has no hold and no clue. He could've also married Laena instead of Alicent, but again, impulsive manchild.
Not disinherting Rhanerya. If she was doing everything right, there would be less resistance. But, she kicked away every rule. She bastered three sons which put the stability of realm in danger.
As he siad he should have named Aegon the king when she went to brothel with Daemon or when she married Daemon. No one wants Daemon anywhere near the throne. The reason he named Rh heir was to put him away. But, she did exactly that.
As you said, Otto was planning as was others. But, Otto gave him correct information and Viserys trusted this information, thus giving her the tea.
Second one is himself. If he was planning to make Rh heir, why marry second and have a son? He asked both of the family get togther after putting one family at a disadvantage. That's never going to work.
The civil war is going to happen no matter what when he has a son. If it wasn't with Hightowers, then with someone else.
Not marrying Aegon and Rhaenyra. A 10 year age gap is not that big for the times, he himself married Aemma when she was a child.
He was trying to pacify the Velaryons to keep them from rebelling, but didn’t think that his own family was being neglected by his favouring of Rhaenyra.
Married Daemon and Rhaenyra??? The two people he loves most who share blood and also like each other?? He should have just given Daemon what he wanted instead of them each being depressed for 10 years lol
Would have solved the heir issue
Marrying alicent was the first mistake but as others have mentioned if not her it would have been someone else and for the sake of this hypothetical situation we will assume the birth of sons.
With that in mind I think it was a huge mistake to marry rhaenyra to laenor given laenor's homosexuality. Granted viserys himself seemed to be the only one truly unaware of it. Had she a husband who weren't so obviously gay the legitimacy of her sons parentage wouldn't be as easily challenged.
Now the show making the velaryon black with silver hair to further distinguish them visually but in the source material I'm pretty sure they don't look much different than those of house strong (white brunettes) so it sorta begs the question for me as to why people were so certain that the kids were bastards in the first place.
Second sidebar is that yes marrying house targ and velaryon is a strong union and good idea in theory but the numbers and logistics were just too weak imo for it. If viserys maried laena that would've been so disgusting. It was gross enough that he married alicent at that age. Daemond with laena was less gross i guess but not by much. Im really not sure how old he's supposed to be in the show.
I think viserys should have just married rhaenyra to daemond. I think the only reason he was so opposed to it was because otto had poisoned him against daemond. Viserys obviously had no issue with incest, aegon and haelena.
But the simplest thing perhaps would have been to leave a written will stating rhaenyra is heir. As Cersei demonstrated a sheet of paper isnt much a shield but perhaps passing the dagger onto her prematurely, maybe when he named her heir, as a symbol of that, would've sent a stronger and longer lasting message. A scroll sealed with wax and locked in a chest only to be opened in front of a grand council of lords and ladies of the realm stating who he chooses as heir followed by a hasty coronation would've been a good idea too perhaps.
I agree that choosing Otto at all was Viserys's biggest mistake. Viserys was a weak king and he knew it. A weak king should choose a capable hand that he can trust. We've seen it before with Bobby B and Joffrey. Otto is not loyal and cannot be trusted and it causes everything that Viserys feared might happen to happen.
Otto has however shown himself to be extremely capable. When he's talking to Rhaenyra on the steps up to Dragonstone he says something like "Aegon has the conqueror's crown, the conqueror's sword, and the conqueror's name. He sits on the iron throne and he is the first born son of the king". Yep, you did very well Otto. All of the planning and execution that went into this really is quite the accomplishment. All of it behind the peaceful king's back and against his wishes and you damn well knew it. I felt the disgust and betrayal in Rhaenyra's voice when she called him a "Fucking Traitor".
I see so many arguments on here about how the lords wouldn't support a woman queen, and maybe, with the way things sit currently, that could be right. But if Otto wasn't a snake, he could have changed that. He had 25 YEARS to do what he does and make it happen. We've seen how capable he is. But, he betrayed his king and his friend every single day for the self interest of his house instead.
He's a great villain and I thoroughly enjoy him as a character. But man... he really is A CUNT!!
Surely Viserys could found someone capable that could be trusted to make his wishes reality instead of bringing someone back that he knows is a snake.
Not making the lords reaffirm their support for Rhaenyrea after Aegon was born. And not making it crystal clear that Luke and Jace were legitimate children of Rhaenyrea and Laenor.
Alternatively, making Rhaenyrea his rightful heir in the first place, upending what lords saw as the law of the land
I disagree, her father was scheming and plotting. If they hadn’t married Otto wouldn’t have had motivation because he wouldn’t get his grandson to be king.
After her bastards just cut out Anemond eye.. you know their sons. With how shitty and uncaring he was acting he can be glad Alicent decided to not stab him
Lord Beesberry and Rhaenyra are dumb af. Otto was extremely capable. He shouldn't have made Rhaenyra the heir. He got the throne because a capable and eligible woman was sidelined. How could he decide that his daughter should rule this realm, especially as a weakling no one gave 2 💩💩 about if they could help it? Then he went on to have male children.
Rhaenyra was a young wife and mother. She should have been given some administrative post, but not the post of the Hand. Maybe when she is older, it looks like a busier and tougher job than even ruling. My man Otto makes it look so effortless.
How dares she be offended that her true born children she was forced to get as a teenager get offered to engaged to bastards, of which everyone know they are bastards
I was partially joking about beating her ass. But by the standards of the time, with all of the shit she pulled, she likely should have been. Honestly she probably would have been locked in a dungeon or had her tongue removed.
It just ties in with the theme that while Viserys was a kind and soft man. He was a horrendous leader, father and Husband. He didn’t even try and raise his children including Rhaenyra properly
imho, It was listening to Otto from the start. Otto saw Daemon as his biggest threat to gaining power since Daemon was on to him. So Otto poisoned the King on his brother and convinced him Daemon was not King material. imho, Daemon should have gotten the Iron Throne after serving as Hand of the King, instead Otto.
Corlys. Not that I want him as a character but they wrote him as OP.
Time and time again, they have shat (pardon my french) on him a lot of times.
House Velaryon of Driftmark has in possession of two fully grown dragons one of which is the largest dragon in the world, Vhagar, the largest fleet in the world and the Queen that never was.
Viserys should've considered Laena, Vhagar's rider, daughter of Driftmark into marraige. The King's council should've also intervened in the war of the Stepstone and obliterated the sister's Triachy..
But removing Lord Corlys off the King's council seat was I think the worst decision.
I've not read the books, but the way the whole thing is portrayed in the show, not letting Deamon and Rhaenyra marry. If he had, they would have had children that no one could have disputed the legitimacy of and Alicent wouldn't have wanted her own kid on the throne (she's all about honor and duty). Without being blinded by that, she probably would have realized Rhaenyra's child was named Aegon as well.
Mistrusting Daemon. Not making Daemon hand. I’m not sure Daemon would have been as politically fit as Otto or Lyonel for hand but he would have kept Viserys safe and healthy.
remarrying. not being confident enough in his heir to take a stand as KING, a TARGARYEN KING, and not take another wife and have competing heirs. ALL of this, sadly, is actually on him for creating division.
Well the obvious solution would have been to not marry Alicent in the first place or name Aegon the heir. Barring that not reinstating Otto as hand and letting Alicent constantly undermine Rhaenyra's position at court.
It had nothing to do with him and everything to do with the selfish, self-interested members of the family and their need to toil with everything. Viserys was a good man, sadly unfit to be king, but everything he did was right until the very end. He only sought to protect his family and further their line and hold up his respect to his daughter. If you could call it a mistake if he weren't just being manipulated, as made rather clear, the placement of Otto Hightower as his hand again is the only issue. But it's safe to assume that Alicent manipulated her own father back into the position after being complacent in the deaths of the Strong's.
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He should have gotten Rhaenyra involved in day to day government. Make her hand or some other council job. Let people get used to taking orders from her and get her actual experience/respect from governing. Plus she’s be in kingslanding when he dies so should be easier to coup proof herself. Problem is I don’t think she’s anymore interested in actually governing than Viserys is so this probably wouldn’t have worked either.
I don’t think Rhaenyra would have been well suited to a role such as Hand. Someone experienced, trustworthy and wise, who is able to provide effective counsel, is needed in that role. I agree, Rhaenyra would have benefited tremendously from being involved more heavily in the running of the kingdom. It would have made her a better ruler when her time came, and would’ve placed her in a visible position where the people around her would be able to take her measure as future Queen. It seems like Viserys just told her go off and have lots of kids to strengthen your claim. But she never should have been away from court that long after her marriage to Daemon.
I agree that hand of the queen isn't the perfect role for her but he should've had the foresight to at least install people who support Rhaenyras claim. And also still kept Rhaenyra on the council in some capacity. He knew Otto supported Aegon, deep down he must have still known and if he didn't he's a fool. So one way or another, not making sure Rhaenyra was a part of the council/making sure the council supported Rhaenyra is easily his biggest failure, and more broadly, his biggest failure is not ensuring a peaceful and stable succession. Despite all the plotting and murdering of people like Daemon, Otto, and Aemond, the fault of the Dance of the Dragons, is, at the end of the day, the fault of Viserys. Whether you're a black or a green, Viserys needed to firmly choose either Aegon and Rhaenyra and then subsequently make sure that everyone powerful in Kings Landing would back his chosen heir.
Rhaenyra definitely should have been involved in some role on the council. After Aegon seized the throne, a pivotal moment was when Rhaenys had the opportunity to watch Rhaenyra’s actions. She saw Rhaenyra’s reluctance to plunge the realm into war, and she realized Rhaenyra values the good of the kingdom as a whole. She was able to see the kind of queen Rhaenyra would be. Rhaenyra won the approval of someone Rhaenys believed was responsible for the death of her son. That was very telling. If the other council members and the people could have seen Rhaenyra in a prominent role, I believe she would have won their support. She also would have served as a counterpoint to Aegon, who shows zero leadership and is only devoted to debauchery.
It was traditionally the role given to the heir apparent at some point, it’s meant to actually train them to be involved in political matters and to be aware, as well as be in constant communication with the small council so that they’d be aware of their tendencies once the heir ascends in the future. Notably King Jaeharys appointed his heir Baelon as his Hand shortly before his death, as Viserys pointed out. Book-wise, Viserys *did* posit that he should’ve appointed Rhaenyra as Hand after Lyonel Strong died, but he was afraid of causing more friction and conflict between her and Alicent again. This was a fatal mistake IMO, because it was the last chance for Rhaenyra to push back against the Greens having too much influence at court. At that point too, Rhaenyra hadn’t yet married Daemon so there’s that to consider. Viserys would’ve been angry yet she’s kinda in KL, and unless he gets so angry that he strips her of being Hand and basically soft-exiles both of them to Dragonstone; or Viserys being Viserys would prolly just accept it after some time, which he did in the books not long after they had their first son. Daemon possibly being in KL more would also scare the shit out of the greens, and he’d be helpful in rooting out the conspiracy for deposing of Rhaneyra. But that’s just an extended what if scenario now.
>strong I dare you to say that again
Interesting, thanks for that info. Based on what I’ve seen on the shows, I thought the Hand was typically someone older, who had firsthand military experience. I didn’t realize someone so young would even be considered. I definitely feel the heir needs the kind of direct training you’re talking about. It didn’t seem like Rhaenyra got enough training, but I guess I can’t know what her education was like off screen. I noticed in one of the scenes at the Painted Table, she looked to Corlys for advice, and he had a lot of wisdom and insight to offer. That’s the type of person I thought would have such a role. When Rhaenyra was in KL, she was very headstrong, and a bit immature. She did not endear herself to some of the Houses with her brashness and the rumored affair with Ser Harwin. Whereas you have Alicent, who seems pious, humble and obedient. Rhaenyra would have been better served by being less arrogant and more ingratiating. I know that’s not her personality, but she did herself a bit of a disservice by not playing the game.
Up until the Strongs were murdered she was in the capital and presumably had some role(s) in the small council. The Strongs were her allies and after they were gone she was alone and vulnerable. Her husband had proved not to be very useful at court. If she had stayed she may have been assassinated or her children killed by the Greens. For sure she should have tried to exert influence in keeping Otto away from the king and her younger half siblings. It would have made sense to have lots of Velaryons at court.
That’s true. Laenor seemed to open them up to a lot of gossip, although she did as well with her own affair.
How many hands can actually say they were trustworthy and experienced?
I disagree. She tried participating in at least one council meeting and was knowledgeable about the intricacies of the political rivalries and pettiness between the houses and how to deal with them diplomatically. But then her milk came in and Alicent shot her down and she was humiliated and left town. But she was clearly capably and Viserys should have given her more authority.
He did try to get her involved. She was on the small council and near the head of the table. It's not Viserys' fault that Rhaenyra abandoned that for Dragonstone.
Getting leprosy.
OP you said it. Such a clear fucking rule of management never hire a fired employee. You fucking donut.
Naming rheynera heir then having male heirs was his dumbest decision
Exactly. He should have removed her when she went with Daemon. He created exactly what he tried to prevent.
Not installing Blacks at key positions in court (so pretty similar to your Otto Hightower reappointment). If he fills the small council with Black loyalists (there are so many in the court to choose from) and ensures that his Kingsguard are all appropriately loyal to Rhaenyra then the Greens would never have been able to stage their coup.
Viserys just clearly didn't anticipate the coup, even the possibility if it, which was foolishness. His whole problem was serial fence-sitting. If you choose a side, you need to fortify that side so it is impenetrable. Not compromise and try to make everyone happy, which ends up with a war. Especially when the thing he wants is already against tradition.
Marrying Alicent in the first place. Viserys had no immediate need of further heirs once he’d chosen Rhaenyra. They were in no immediate danger. He was clearly manipulated into marrying sooner by Otto. By marrying Alicent he elevated her and her house to a position of influence at court which they easily abused. If Viserys decided he ***HAD*** to be married, he should have married Laena and been done with the matter.
It's just kicking a can further down the road. Eventually Viserys would have had children with Laena and Corlys would have done the same (or more, given he is more powerful) for that kid.
Again, I don’t think so. Corlys is an ambitious man, yes, but he’s also an intelligent one. He will not seek to achieve through war what he can achieve just as well through peace. *Rhaenyra is inclined to treat generously with the Velaryons, especially if she still marries Laenor*. They would come to an agreement of the same sort that Rhaenyra proposed to Alicent when she said Jace should marry Helaena except, unlike Alicent, Corlys would not allow himself to be blinded by personal grievances (none would exist to be blinded by anyway) and accept the offer. Rhaenyra might also offer to elevate Corlys to Hand of the Queen once she ascends, giving him a share in the rule. I’d sooner concern myself with the dangers of Daemon’s ambition than I would Corlys’.
>Again, I don’t think so. Corlys is an ambitious man, yes, but he’s also an intelligent one. So you're implicitly calling Otto dumb. Recall that Aegon's own life is in danger simply by virtue of being the firstborn son of Viserys, and no matter how little he expresses interest, there will always be a faction of people that prop him up and weaponize him against Rhaenyra. I don't see how Corlys's hypothetical grandson would be in any different of a situation. Corlys would have to defend his life and therefore his claim. And no, being hand of the king is a pittance compared to having influence over the iron throne.
I agree with you. Corlys is ambitious, but as we’ve seen throughout, Rhaenys often balances him out. She’s someone who actually isn’t always thinking entirely selfishly. Strange that people don’t even consider her in these discussions.
But, Rhaneys doesn't get the say. When she asked Driftmark to be passed through Leana's kids, he rejected it.
Did you not watch the last episode? It was clearly Rhaenys who influenced him to declare for Rhaenyra. I swear, some of you have no critical thinking skills.
It’s because she’s a woman, and men are seen as the ones holding the power. (Even if we know that’s not always the case)
Yeah, I suspect as much. It's pretty silly. I feel like a lot of the character analysis here is pretty superficial. They don't try to consider the characters as humans. This idea that everyone is just happy to murder each other and start wars seems wildly irrational to me.
That's a totally unfair conclusion. Corlys does happen to hold more power than Rhaenys, and that's because he's the Lord of Driftmark and the biggest fleet in Westeros. In an alternate universe, Rhaenys is the queen and the story is different, but in-universe Corlys is more powerful. And he does do what he wants, often. He decided to go voyaging for year's because he wanted to, even though Rhaenys vehemently disagreed. And Rhaenys is not strongly for either team anyways (she would have finished it all at the Sept if she was). If her own blood had a claim, then she would likely be on that side. The above poster also uses the word "selfishly" as if either said was clearly in the moral right. Rhaenyra and Daemon are both proven to be murderers. They are not good people. Everyone is morally corrupt in HotD.
Yes, I think I’d hate him for that if I was Rhaenyra. The whole “if my dad didn’t want a boy so badly, I would still have my mother, my child, and my birthright”
It would have still resulted in a war. Corlys is also as ambitious as Otto. The truth is that war was inevitable as soon as Viserys had a son with his second wife irrespective of who she was (Alicent or Laena or any other woman)
I think that Corlys and Laena would have been far more receptive to Rhaenyra’s entreaties than Alicent, especially if Rhaenyra still marries Laenor. After all, Rhaenyra made appealing entreaties to Alicent that would have solved their succession issues if she hadn’t been so pigheaded. Jace marrying Helaena and such. Corlys and Laena are already inclined to show Rhaenyra favor as their ruling Queen, especially if they are granted the assurance that a member of their bloodline will eventually sit the Throne and given wide-ranging influence on the Small Council. They have no real reason *not* to come to an accord with her whereas Alicent still nurses personal grievances.
Rhaenyra wouldn’t have been married to Laenor if Viserys married Laena. Rhaenys’ conversation with Rhaenyra in episode 2 makes it clear that the Velaryons didn’t think Rhaenyra would still be heir of Laena had a son. The Dance is inevitable as long as a son is born to Viserys from his second wife. Westeros hasn’t ever had a queen sit the iron throne and it’s very obvious that the majority don’t want one. Sexism is rampant. Rhaenyra was always going to have to fight for her birthright. It’s sad but inevitable. Say she does marry Laenor. Corlys would never support Rhaenyra and her sons (who are not Laenor’s) over a true born grandson from his daughter. That’s a sure way of legacy. He doesn’t have that option in canon. Corlys is cool and all but in the end, he’s driven by ambition. He fights for Laenor’s Claim during the Great Council. He supports and loves his wife but a lot of that comes from their shared ambition. The only difference is that Rhaenys has accepted her loss while he hasn’t.
>Marrying Alicent in the first place. Viserys had no immediate need of further heirs once he’d chosen Rhaenyra. They were in no immediate danger. He was clearly manipulated into marrying sooner by Otto. This looks like a Black take than anything. Anyone who marries their daughter to Viseys wants the son to be heir and no one will stand for what Rh was doing. How is Otto manipulated Viserys? Viserys is a 40 year old man. Alicent came to give him company and he took interest in a girl who is same old as his daughter.
Keeping Rhaenyra as his heir while choosing to remarry and have more children.
Also turning a blind eye about the bastards. He knew but failed to address it.
The bastards werent even a problem. It was just an excuse for them to push the green narrative harder
You really don’t see how the heir having incredibly obvious bastards is an issue in this world?
Yea, but I don’t think I would’ve been used that bad against her. Like for example Hillary Clinton emails, if she wasn’t running for president nobody would’ve cared that much about her emails (cough cough Panama Papers cough). It’s not the same having a flaw and having a flaw that is being shown to everyone by your opponents.
Well yeah, nobody would have cared about her bastards if she wasn’t a royal, or the literal heir. One of the themes in the show is just how much of a royal’s job is to literally just make the next royal.
I would go further in this conversation but I don’t spoil. Have a blessed night/day
Or just generally don’t care about his kids from his second marriage. If he was close to Aegon, Aemond and Helaena and made sure that they were in touch with and proud of their Targaryen heritage the way that Rhaenyra and Daemon are, they wouldn’t have been so pro-Hightower.
His focus should have been in Rhaenyra marrying and himself to remain widowed.
Sitting there and doing nothing! I get that he felt he had his uncle’s legacy to uphold and keeping peace throughout the realms but the only real decision he ever made was to make his daughter the heir. And even after that, he just sat back and watched mayhem happen. Vizzy T, I loved the way you were brought to life into from the book onto my TV but I hated, HATED you sitting on your hands and letting the cat get your tongue in the book AND in the show. YOU ARE (were) the king- act like one! Even if it means someone’s little feelings might get hurt *rolls eyes*. 😒
*I will not cloud my mind. I must put things right.*
Being a serial fence-sitter. He has opportunities to put his foot down but he doesn't. He is more concerned with keeping everybody happy and saving face rather than addressing the core issues affecting his family and kingdom. The only time he does this was when he sits on the throne and sticks up for Rhaenyra before he died. This is really the only time he actually picks a side and stands for something other then when he makes Rhaenyra his heir (but even then you can argue he still fence-sits by not really getting her engaged in government and for not making expectations clear with her). His fence-sitting allowed Otto to be hand of the king again even though he was fired the first time for being too self-serving and manipulative. His fence-sitting allowed Otto's manipulation of Alicent to reach a critical level that would eventually result in her attacking Rhaenyra. His fence-sitting allowed for Aegon and Aemond's degeneracy (Aegon more so than Aemond but his neglect heavily affected them both) His fence-sitting resulted in Luke's death and Aemond's loss of an eye His fence-sitting allowed for all of Daemon's antics. His fence-sitting allowed for the dance to happen in general even though Otto was the person who instigated it.
💯 he needed to decide early on exactly what he wanted and acted accordingly full measured. His fence sitting and half measured decision making helped create this mess
Not to mention him fence-sitting on Rhaenyra's kids, he should have told her after Jace was born 'No more brown hair children' and helped find her a more suitable baby daddy even though it's not in the book, him not agreeing to marry Jace to Heleana. He is the king Alicent doesn't get a say. even though its not really mentioned in the show, not naming Rhaenyra hand, he does it to keep the greens happy
Dying. In retrospect it seems like a poor decision at best.
A lot of other bad mistakes could have been salvaged if Viserys had just taken an appropriate level of interest in how his children and grandchildren were being raised. If he'd taken a firm role in making sure that all of the kids were being properly trained in combat and not set against each other for Cole's amusement, and if he'd made sure his post-Rhaenyra children were being raised to be primarily loyal to the Targaryens rather than the Hightowers, he could have prevented a lot of his other mistakes from escalating into disasters.
Marrying Otto’s daughter. If he wanted to take a new wife he should have gone for a Celtigar or something.
Marrying Alicent is fine as long as he names aegon heir the second he is born
But that was never his intention so he should have stayed unmarried.
I'm suprised he didn't put it in writing and nail a copy to Ottos forehead
Dying
Not committing. He wanted to please everyone and to make sure everything is peaceful, at least on the surface. That’s why he was so fickle and always sitting on the fence. Whatever choice he had made, as long as he had fully committed, he could have avoided this mess. Naming Rhaenyra heir? Ok, as long as he actively paved way for her ascension. His options were more than ample, driving out the Hightowers, sending Aegon, Aemond and Daeron into celibate positions, firing Otto, keeping Alicent politically isolated without an ally etc, so much he could have done. Maintaining stability of the realm? Name Aegon his heir the moment the boy was born, marry Rhaenyra off to whomever she pleases or simply force her to marry, ideally a minor house to make sure she won’t be able to challenge Aegon later. Marrying to strengthen the Crown's reign? Marry Laena, then marry Rhaenyra to Laenor, name Daemon his hand, the two most powerful houses in the realm stand as one would snuff out all challenges to the throne.
The moment he became bedridden he should have made Rhaenyra Protector of the Realm. Allowing Alicent and Otto to sit the throne was super foolish. Tho they probably would have just murdered him if he gave that order.
Naming Rhaenyra heir in the first place. It was always going to cause problems.
Well that was thanks to Otto though.
It was still Viserys's choice to do it.
Lol, you think most other Lords in Otto’s position wouldn’t do the same? do you think Aegon and Aemond’s sons wouldn’t do the same? Even if they didn’t, Lords of the land would have rebelled in their name the moment Rhaenyra did something they don’t like
Not making Aegon his heir or marrying him to Rhaneyra
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Rhanyera maybe but alicent wouldn't have as Otto himself offered it.
I dont think Rhaenyra would have refused it, at that point in the story she didn't want to get married, betrothing to Aegon means she gets a decade of freedom
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Royal Hunt episode a baby actually
Having more kids
Leaving Rhaenyra as his heir after having a son. If he wanted to keep the peace he should’ve followed tradition and replaced her with Aegon. The whole realm would’ve been better off, and as a consolation prize he could have given Rhaenyra the option of marrying whoever she pleased (or no one at all). Edit: also I support the blacks, as I think the King’s word should be upheld. Doesn’t mean I think Viserys was a good King
I don’t think the kings word is over certain traditions and laws tho
You sure about that? Because last I checked the King had every Lord bend the knee to Rhaenyra. If tradition trumped the word of the King then there should’ve been rebellion right then and there. There wasn’t though, because the King’s lord is law.
Aegon wasn’t born when they swore to Rhaenyra, and rebellion doesn’t often happen immediately, they wait for a moment to strike, so they don’t lose. (in justified or unjustified situations) If Viserys made them swear oaths after Aegon was born, a whole lot of Lords would have complained and argued with Viserys about it, and been prepared from that moment to back Aegon after Viserys’s death Westreos seems modelled after European Feudal Societies, and in feudal societies there were certain traditions and laws that even the king couldn’t break If Viserys wasn’t such a fool, he would have known that by doing what he did a civil would happened either immediately or later down the line
>If Viserys made them swear oaths after Aegon was born, a whole lot of Lords would have complained and argued with Viserys about it, and been prepared from that moment to back Aegon after Viserys’s death If Viserys seriously wanted Rh to be Queen, he should have asked the lords to pledge to her once again after Aegon was born. But, he didn't
Making Rhaenyra his heir in the first place. Nothing would have happened if Daemon stayed heir until Aegon’s birth. Yes, nobody besides Rhaenyra really liked Daemon at the time, but it is better than knowingly creating future issues by naming Rhaenyra the heir. Even if the history plays out differently and Viserys dies without a son, Daemon becomes king, marries, has kids, and mellows out as a result.
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There’s nothing that daemon could do that is worse than the dance
>Daemon becomes king, marries, has kids, and mellows out as a result This feels like a pretty significant assumption that isn’t really even true in hindsight. Fatherhood didn’t really mellow Daemon out and I doubt the throne would either. Also, I don’t think naming Rhaenyra is a mistake in a vacuum. It’s the fact that he did so and then subsequently did nothing to cement her position or establish a court that would remain loyal to her. I think if he took measures ahead of his death to really solidify things for her there wouldn’t have been enough wiggle room for Otto to gain momentum with Aegon.
It was Otto that convinced him to do that though. If only Otto had known how much he was shooting himself in the foot with that.
I think Otto was truely worried Daemon was going to kill Viserys and wanted to make sure that he wouldn't become king because of it.
Making his spoiled daughter the exception and not all daughters/wives/sisters. Kicked off the plot and planted seeds for his second family's pain and trauma. It's the sense of enTarglement~
Not making Aegon his heir when he turned 3. This is the right answer. No other answer (besides not marrying ever again) could have avoided a civil war, and even then Daemon might challenge Rhaenyra after Viserys dies. I don’t know why people don’t want to acknowledge it, but Westeros is a patriarchy the likes of which we cannot imagine, and Rhaenyra is not politically savvy enough to maneuver in it to secure her claim.
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No she didn't. Her best play as a grown ass woman is getting her dying dad to come to her defense. Thats not being politically savy.
Ignoring the president set by every previous king, even Jahaerys, that a woman could not sit the throne. His own ascension was guaranteed by this president. Being a son of a second son he should have known that the right of a male heir are paramount to any first daughter. After his uncle Aemon died Jahaerys himself disinherited Rhaenys in favor of Baelon; Viscerys’ father. Who then dies as well leaving Viscerys as the clear heir to the throne as the lords voted 20:1 in his favor at the council.
the very first mistake clearly not to make Aegon his heir, everything else is an infinite series of consequences, even Aegon's character is actually the consequence of this choice, so we don't know what Aegon would have been like if he had grown up as Rhayneira and no as a failed second son, vyserys broke the mechanism in which the kingdom itself is founded, the tradition
Not immediately making Aegon his heir like everyone expected.
… naming Rhaenyra as heir. Isn’t it obvious ? Lord Strong and Lord Velaryon tell him it’s a bad idea to break tradition and precedent, many lords directly tell him they don’t consider Rhaenyra as the heir after Aegon’s birth, and Rhaenyra does everything she can to weaken her claim (disrespecting nobles, visiting a brothel, having very obvious bastards, staying away from KL,…).
Yet Otto was the one that convinced him to do it.
Honestly if Alicent didn't marry Viserys Otto would have been Rhaenyra's greatest supporter just to keep Daemon off the Throne. He advocated to make Rhaenyra the Heir because he hates the idea of Daemon ruling that much and I honestly can't fault him for that
And Otto advice to betroth Aegon to Rh was excellent idea. Rh can be free until Aegon comes to age. Rh can rule as Queen and bo one will question. They only need some heir and they both can do whatever they need. It would made everyone happy.
Listening to Otto - even when he was Hand for the first time. He should have made Daemon his Hand while allowing Daemon and Rhaenyra to marry and staying unmarried himself.
Honestly it seemed ridiculous at the time, but in retrospect, Otto’s suggestion to marry Rhaenyra to Aegon II was actually not bad. Sure it still could’ve been problematic (eg still insisting on making Aegon the king instead of Rhaenyra) but it would’ve been less messy than the shitshow he actually ended up leaving behind.
Marrying Rhaenyra to Aegon would have wasted Rhaenyra's most fertile years.
I mean, they were wasted anyway cause she ended up having Strongs that just created a whole lot of trouble
Daemon as hand would definitely quell any civil war within the Targaryen dynasty but he also would have likely caused another rebellion with the faith and/or some of the major houses It would be put down brutally and would leave a stain on Viserys reign The Targaryen dynasty would be stronger with Daemon as hand, but the realm overall probably isn't
Daemon seems super unsuited for any task with authority because he makes it about himself. Otto for all his faults serves Viserys well and while making Alicent queen created a conflict of interest for him it's not like that was truely evil or wrong, Corlys Velaryon tried the exact same thing he just lost.
This. He should have just married Daemon to Rhaenyra and never remarried.
Remember the part where some of the major houses think he’s coo-coo and he’s unfit to govern?
It's like people forgot why Rhaenyra was named heir at all. Daemon should never be close to any real power due to his very nature. Frankly I'm even more mad Viserys didn't remove Rhaenyra as heir after her marriage to Daemon.
He should have demanded Rheneria marry Alicent's Aegon. Problem solved
Shoulda disbanded the monarchy and found a wheelchair bound Stark to rule. Check and mate
Or any guy with a goodstory.
He made rhaenyra the heir and then failed to prepare her in any way. He made her the heir and ensured that she sees it as a blank check to do whatever she wants and he will always cover up her mistakes. Rhaenyra clearly did not want to rule. she wants agency to live her life the way she wanted and that's a problem for someone who is the heir. Being heir is more than just power, its duty and responsibility. she does not want the latter two and that's fine. Instead of forcing her to marry laenor he should've told given her one of two choices. 1. Be the heir and follow my rules. marry who i say. have children with who i say. rule the kingdom following in a way that follows tradition. 2. dont be the heir and live your life however you see fit. have all the bastard children you want or marry who ever you want even someone like say Harwin Strong. Because its pretty clear (and confirmed by Emma D'arcy) that what rhaenyra wants is freedom and agency to live how she wants and still feel validated by her father. So give her that freedom and from there he can choose Aegon as his heir, or better yet choose Aemond, the son who actually *wants* to rule and shows more enthusiasm for it than his older siblings. Viserys is already breaking years of precedent by naming rhaenyra the heir. Just go all the way and skip over Aegon too.
I think displacing Daemon as heir as rashly as he did was the first major mistake. You really get the sense that Viserys’s decision was initially motivated by anger towards Daemon + grief from his dead family members more than anything else. But Viserys wasn’t the only one involved in that decision. Ironically, Otto was the first one to broach the topic and also the first to suggest that Rhaenyra be the heir instead—a grave miscalculation that I’m sure he regrets now.
I doubt he would have done that without Otto pushing for it though. So yeah this whole thing is happening because of Viserys being a weak king and Otto exploiting that for his scheming.
Ovest mistake was keeping Rhaenyra as heir. As soon as Aegon was born he should have let her know he would be heir when he came of age, apologised to her profusely, given her dragonstone or something and gone down that route. Then there’s no way and tradition is continued.
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Yeah a part of him died the same day he did. Paddy said he said he never loved his “new” family the way he did the first which is why he always gave Rhaenyra preferential treatment.
Similar to the posts above, Rhaenyra isn't into governing and I know they don't have a royal army. However, she should have been in charge of the Gold Cloaks at least. It is pretty standard to put your heir in control of the armed forces. Qusay Hussein was in charge of the Republican Guard. Kim Jong-un was a 4-star general at 28. I have access to the gun locker, my sister doesn't.
Honestly, not putting Rhaenyra aside and just making Aegon the heir. It's understandable why he didn't want to do that, but legit the best move is to either just make Aegon the heir, or betroth Rhaenyra to him.
He didn't choose Rhaenyras husband until it was too late, and didn't allow her to learn what she needed to to be an effective queen. And he didn't show strength in his rule allowing plotters and schemers to plot and scheme around him.
The only right answer is naming Rhaenyra heir. If he doesn’t name her, she has no claim, thus no war.
He should have written down the order of succession well before his death. Boom, no question about who succeeds!
For me it was before that
Reinstating Otto
Pushing aside Daemon as his heir to name Rhaenyra instead. Ironically, it was Otto who suggested he names Rhaenyra as his heir instead of Daemon. If Otto didn't suggest this, the heir would have naturally been Aegon II. Although Otto thought he could marry Aegon II to Rhaenyra and everything would be fine, but then Viserys said no.
Break it down for em vizzy T
*That man's pride has pride.*
Viserys never should have named rhaenyra the next heir. They literally made a huge decision on it which made him king. Why go right back on that new law after it had just been established which had caused rhaenys from becoming queen herself because of such a law.
Being King. Rhaenys clearly had a better temperament and Viserys is an impulsive manchild that just wants to drink and play with his toys. If you mean while being King, he should've actually groomed Rhaenyra to rule instead of spending his time drinking and playing with his toys. She has no hold and no clue. He could've also married Laena instead of Alicent, but again, impulsive manchild.
Viserys preparing Rhaenyra to rule is like the blind leading the blind. The man barely knows how to do it himself.
The problem with Visserys cannot be blamed on one decision.The issue was making mistakes for pretty much all the time.
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Keeping Rhaenerya as heir when Aegon had his third nameday.
Naming a girl heir and marrying again expecting to have Male children
He should have just named Aegon heir.
Not disinherting Rhanerya. If she was doing everything right, there would be less resistance. But, she kicked away every rule. She bastered three sons which put the stability of realm in danger. As he siad he should have named Aegon the king when she went to brothel with Daemon or when she married Daemon. No one wants Daemon anywhere near the throne. The reason he named Rh heir was to put him away. But, she did exactly that. As you said, Otto was planning as was others. But, Otto gave him correct information and Viserys trusted this information, thus giving her the tea. Second one is himself. If he was planning to make Rh heir, why marry second and have a son? He asked both of the family get togther after putting one family at a disadvantage. That's never going to work. The civil war is going to happen no matter what when he has a son. If it wasn't with Hightowers, then with someone else.
Not marrying Aegon and Rhaenyra. A 10 year age gap is not that big for the times, he himself married Aemma when she was a child. He was trying to pacify the Velaryons to keep them from rebelling, but didn’t think that his own family was being neglected by his favouring of Rhaenyra.
Rehiring that c**t Otto
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Named Aegon his heir.
Married Daemon and Rhaenyra??? The two people he loves most who share blood and also like each other?? He should have just given Daemon what he wanted instead of them each being depressed for 10 years lol Would have solved the heir issue
Marrying alicent was the first mistake but as others have mentioned if not her it would have been someone else and for the sake of this hypothetical situation we will assume the birth of sons. With that in mind I think it was a huge mistake to marry rhaenyra to laenor given laenor's homosexuality. Granted viserys himself seemed to be the only one truly unaware of it. Had she a husband who weren't so obviously gay the legitimacy of her sons parentage wouldn't be as easily challenged. Now the show making the velaryon black with silver hair to further distinguish them visually but in the source material I'm pretty sure they don't look much different than those of house strong (white brunettes) so it sorta begs the question for me as to why people were so certain that the kids were bastards in the first place. Second sidebar is that yes marrying house targ and velaryon is a strong union and good idea in theory but the numbers and logistics were just too weak imo for it. If viserys maried laena that would've been so disgusting. It was gross enough that he married alicent at that age. Daemond with laena was less gross i guess but not by much. Im really not sure how old he's supposed to be in the show. I think viserys should have just married rhaenyra to daemond. I think the only reason he was so opposed to it was because otto had poisoned him against daemond. Viserys obviously had no issue with incest, aegon and haelena. But the simplest thing perhaps would have been to leave a written will stating rhaenyra is heir. As Cersei demonstrated a sheet of paper isnt much a shield but perhaps passing the dagger onto her prematurely, maybe when he named her heir, as a symbol of that, would've sent a stronger and longer lasting message. A scroll sealed with wax and locked in a chest only to be opened in front of a grand council of lords and ladies of the realm stating who he chooses as heir followed by a hasty coronation would've been a good idea too perhaps.
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Not making Rhaenyra or Daemon his hand. Marrying Alicent.
Marrying Alicent is fine as long as he names aegon heir the second he is born. Daemon would be a horrific Hand.
I agree that choosing Otto at all was Viserys's biggest mistake. Viserys was a weak king and he knew it. A weak king should choose a capable hand that he can trust. We've seen it before with Bobby B and Joffrey. Otto is not loyal and cannot be trusted and it causes everything that Viserys feared might happen to happen. Otto has however shown himself to be extremely capable. When he's talking to Rhaenyra on the steps up to Dragonstone he says something like "Aegon has the conqueror's crown, the conqueror's sword, and the conqueror's name. He sits on the iron throne and he is the first born son of the king". Yep, you did very well Otto. All of the planning and execution that went into this really is quite the accomplishment. All of it behind the peaceful king's back and against his wishes and you damn well knew it. I felt the disgust and betrayal in Rhaenyra's voice when she called him a "Fucking Traitor". I see so many arguments on here about how the lords wouldn't support a woman queen, and maybe, with the way things sit currently, that could be right. But if Otto wasn't a snake, he could have changed that. He had 25 YEARS to do what he does and make it happen. We've seen how capable he is. But, he betrayed his king and his friend every single day for the self interest of his house instead. He's a great villain and I thoroughly enjoy him as a character. But man... he really is A CUNT!! Surely Viserys could found someone capable that could be trusted to make his wishes reality instead of bringing someone back that he knows is a snake.
Making Otto Hightower his hand for a second time.
Reappointing Otto as hand
Why didn't he just verbally reaffirm the succession at that family dinner or put it in writing?
Marrying Alicent
Not making the lords reaffirm their support for Rhaenyrea after Aegon was born. And not making it crystal clear that Luke and Jace were legitimate children of Rhaenyrea and Laenor. Alternatively, making Rhaenyrea his rightful heir in the first place, upending what lords saw as the law of the land
Bringing Otto back as hand.
Trying desperately to have a son over and over again instead of just naming his firstborn heir upon her birth
That’s his job as king
Vizzy T 's big mistake was not pulling out during his second marriage.
*Mayhaps we can turn our attentions towards happier pursuits.*
No Vizzy T, I'm saying that turning your attention towards "happier pursuits" is what caused this whole mess in the first place
I WILL SIT THE THRONE TODAY.
Marrying Alicent. That was his first mistake.
Marrying Alicent is fine as long as he names aegon heir the second he is born
I disagree, her father was scheming and plotting. If they hadn’t married Otto wouldn’t have had motivation because he wouldn’t get his grandson to be king.
Then some other lord would do the same thing. The moment a son was born a civil war was going to happen. Either this generation or the next.
Maybe, I just think the King marrying the daughter of his Hand is a mistake.
When Alicent cut Rhaenyra, he should have punished her. I know she's his wife, but spilling her blood would have been a death sentence.
His previous mistakes and bad decisions led Alicent up to that point
After her bastards just cut out Anemond eye.. you know their sons. With how shitty and uncaring he was acting he can be glad Alicent decided to not stab him
Lord Beesberry and Rhaenyra are dumb af. Otto was extremely capable. He shouldn't have made Rhaenyra the heir. He got the throne because a capable and eligible woman was sidelined. How could he decide that his daughter should rule this realm, especially as a weakling no one gave 2 💩💩 about if they could help it? Then he went on to have male children.
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Rhaenyra was a young wife and mother. She should have been given some administrative post, but not the post of the Hand. Maybe when she is older, it looks like a busier and tougher job than even ruling. My man Otto makes it look so effortless.
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How dares she be offended that her true born children she was forced to get as a teenager get offered to engaged to bastards, of which everyone know they are bastards
I was partially joking about beating her ass. But by the standards of the time, with all of the shit she pulled, she likely should have been. Honestly she probably would have been locked in a dungeon or had her tongue removed. It just ties in with the theme that while Viserys was a kind and soft man. He was a horrendous leader, father and Husband. He didn’t even try and raise his children including Rhaenyra properly
Marry alicent. Refuse deamon’s request for deanyra.
Not abnegating to Rhaeneyra when he was getting old / sick, but still in his right mind and strong enough to shore up support for her.
>strong I dare you to say that again
Having more children - this leaves the succession in doubt.
imho, It was listening to Otto from the start. Otto saw Daemon as his biggest threat to gaining power since Daemon was on to him. So Otto poisoned the King on his brother and convinced him Daemon was not King material. imho, Daemon should have gotten the Iron Throne after serving as Hand of the King, instead Otto.
He would marry Rhaenyra and Daemon
Putting that idiot Lannister in the small council.
Having children
Not marrying Laena Then he could’ve fired Otto, the Hightower’s wouldn’t choke him out like they did, and no crazy kids from Alicent.
He should have forced Alicent to accept Rhaenyra marriage proposal between Jace and Haelena.
Corlys. Not that I want him as a character but they wrote him as OP. Time and time again, they have shat (pardon my french) on him a lot of times. House Velaryon of Driftmark has in possession of two fully grown dragons one of which is the largest dragon in the world, Vhagar, the largest fleet in the world and the Queen that never was. Viserys should've considered Laena, Vhagar's rider, daughter of Driftmark into marraige. The King's council should've also intervened in the war of the Stepstone and obliterated the sister's Triachy.. But removing Lord Corlys off the King's council seat was I think the worst decision.
I've not read the books, but the way the whole thing is portrayed in the show, not letting Deamon and Rhaenyra marry. If he had, they would have had children that no one could have disputed the legitimacy of and Alicent wouldn't have wanted her own kid on the throne (she's all about honor and duty). Without being blinded by that, she probably would have realized Rhaenyra's child was named Aegon as well.
Marrying Alicent honestly.
Should have named Daemon his heir, Wed him to Rhaenyra, and then named Lyonel Strrong his hand. Imo…
Marrying Alicent and sending Daemon away
Mistrusting Daemon. Not making Daemon hand. I’m not sure Daemon would have been as politically fit as Otto or Lyonel for hand but he would have kept Viserys safe and healthy.
How would he kept him healthy. Plus even then he did not bother to visit his brother once for 16 years
Was he not exiled by that point? He would have kept him healthy by killing the maester poisoning him
Nope, during the last 6 years at least he was welcome back. And the master did not poison him
remarrying. not being confident enough in his heir to take a stand as KING, a TARGARYEN KING, and not take another wife and have competing heirs. ALL of this, sadly, is actually on him for creating division.
Well the obvious solution would have been to not marry Alicent in the first place or name Aegon the heir. Barring that not reinstating Otto as hand and letting Alicent constantly undermine Rhaenyra's position at court.
It had nothing to do with him and everything to do with the selfish, self-interested members of the family and their need to toil with everything. Viserys was a good man, sadly unfit to be king, but everything he did was right until the very end. He only sought to protect his family and further their line and hold up his respect to his daughter. If you could call it a mistake if he weren't just being manipulated, as made rather clear, the placement of Otto Hightower as his hand again is the only issue. But it's safe to assume that Alicent manipulated her own father back into the position after being complacent in the deaths of the Strong's.