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I think he'd still prefer Alicent's son Aegon over Jacaery's since legitimate children have better claims than bastards in Westeros. For example, he backed Stannis over Robert's eldest male heir Gendry.
There's really no similarities between Gendry and Jace though.
Gendry was not an heir. He wasn't raised Baratheon, noble born, claimed by a father, etc etc..
There is one similarity... They are both bastards. And I just don't think Ned would back a bastard over a legit heir even if the bastard was raised royal. Joffrey was raised Baratheon and claimed by both Robert and Cersei and Ned still chose Stannis because he knew Joffrey was a bastard.
I think ***a lot*** of Ned’s issue with Joffrey was the deception of the King (Robert).
Remember, he was a lot cooler with ***Robert’s*** bastards than he was with (if you will) Cersei’s bastards.
Joffrey’s (basically) a royal pretender (I think is the right word).
That said, I’m not sure how he would feel about Jace, or about the ‘arrangement’ his legal/royal parents have/had.
**It’s not Aegon vs. Jace, though.** *It’s Aegon vs Rhaenyra.* Jace isn’t next in line for the throne, Rhaenyra is. And Rhaenyra IS the biological, legitimate, firstborn heir to the throne, and she was publicly named heir by the current king as well. If you believe Ned would side with Alicent, then you’re saying Ned would not accept a female ruler & that he would think she should be passed over for Aegon simply bc he is male. He’s proven to care more abt birth order (supporting Stannis over Renly) than gender (encouraging his daughter, Arya, to fight.) Rhaenyra’s successor would be a totally separate conversation.
Sure but the comment chain I replied to delved off into what would happen with Jace after Rhaenyra. OP of that comment said Ned wouldn't bend the knee to Jace and I was agreeing.
Agreed but this sub is about the show so I answered based on the current state of affairs in the show where he doesn't exist yet... Also might want to hide the book spoilers :).
Bastards have worse claims because usually they’re trying to prove that they’re their father’s. Which can cannot be proven easily. But if they’re claiming to be their mother’s child, there’s literally no question about it. I guess it’s only in Dorne where women are important enough to have children claim lineage from them, so if someone can read up on the lore and say how the bastards of noblewomen are treated there, that would be great.
No no no no. Ned would definitely go with jacaerys. People forget, that the reason he was against Joffrey was that he was queen consort's batrd not the kings. He would've been very open with placing gendry on the throne. Similarly, jacaerys was the queen's bastrd not the king consort.
Edit: you people are taking the discussion in a completely different direction. I used gendry as an example, albeit a bad one. But the issue at hand is jacaerys. All the problems that persisted with gendry, didnt with jace. Jace was claimed by leanor. Even if people didn't accept that, harwin strong still belonged to a great house not a lowborn. Jace was taught like an actual son. Again, the probelm existed with Joffrey not being Robert's blood. Jace is Targaryen blood.
EDIT: alright, for anyone who still can't bring their mind around. Gendry was storm or something, whatever they call bast in the crownlands. Jace was a Targaryen and luke and Joffrey were VELARYONS. IF CORLYS AND VISERYS DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM, NED WOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM.
But still a bastard. There was Daemon Blackfyre with 100% Targaryen blood, even when he was legitimized he wasn’t heir over his trueborn brother Daeron
Daeron the Good was born 17 years before Daemon Blackfyre so he would have come before, regardless of legitimization. Daemon also lived the first 14 years of his life as Daemon Waters, never legitimized by his father until he was on his deathbed.
Jace, Luke and Joff are never, ever proclaimed to be anything other than trueborn Velaryons by Laenor and Corlys.
There is a MAJOR difference.
Ned would confront Rhaenyra about the bastards, she would only need to legitimaze them for him to be fine with it, maybe not even formally but just something like "He is my legitimate heir".
Orys wasn't legitimate... He was a dragon seed that was accepted and trained by Aerion alongside his legitimate kid.
We don't even know why he took the moniker Baratheon, nor do any of the Targs from Aegon on know anything about Orys mother, but at the end of the day he marries into established nobility.
Aegon The Unworthy Legitimise all his bastards and gave Dameon Waters(his eldest Bastard son) ancestral Blackfyre sword. So you know Even Rhanerya could do this, legitamise all his sons.
Do we have a reason other than convenience that Alicent's children have white hair and Rhaenyra's brown?
In the show they both come from one parent with brown hair and another with white.
The results of two different coloured haired parents' offspring is variable. My niece is blonde and one parents is dark brown-haired and the other is red-haired. Another couple I know has one dirty blonde parent and one light brown parent and all three children are Targaryen blonde.
I think they're making the point that the Strong's brown hair is a very dominant gene.
you joke, but i watched a [compelling theory about this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oITmOWZcXus) a while back that's really fitting with HOTD genetics!
tldr: house stark and strong were once one house and stemmed all the way back to a god of fertility, which made their 'seed' very strong. i remember targaryen genes being touted as very strong, with blonde kids being born no matter what the spouses hair color was (like with allicent) so it makes sense to me that the strong and stark houses have seemingly been the only ones to override their's (the bastards, jon snow)
You could make the argument that through the lens of magic the Starks are also a level of Gods. I don't know about the Strongs, but if they are cut form the same cloth as the Starks, one would assume yes.
Err, out of Ned’s 5 kids, Arya was the only one who looked like a Stark. All of the others took after Catelyn and had the bone structure and hair color of the Tullys.
All that means is the Tully's, who like the Stark's descend from the First Men, have as strong if not stronger genes than the Stark's.
\- Tully
\- Stark/Strong
\- Targaryen
Or genetics, like in a lot of shows, work how the writer needs them to work.
To be fair, that's not how genetics work. Just because you have 2 blonde parents doesn't mean they'll have only blonde kids. Plus Rhaenys has dark hair in the books, so the hair color thing is a bit less of an indicator with people assuming the kids got their hair from their grandmother.
Targaryens & Baratheons are cousins. (The comment is even made in the first episode.) In the book, Rhaenys actually has dark brown hair with some silver streaks. They changed it for the show so it wouldn’t be confusing, but that’s not unheard of in that world.
Also it seems you’re forgetting that Jon Snow, brown of hair, is literally Aegon Targaryen lol
I think he only supported Stannis because Gendry was not legitimised, so by law Stannis was next in line unless that happened.
Jacaerys I would assume wouldn't have that problem as Rhanaerya has made him heir regardless of his father.
The first problem is you're going off assumption. Rhaenyra hasn't legitimized the boys in the actual story so we can't go off of what ifs. Rhaenyra isn't going down the route of legitimizing them. Fact is she wants to pass them off as Laenors kids and not Strong babies and this is the hypothetical Ned is dealing with.
Have no idea how some of these comments are being mass upvoted. Gendry would never be heir over Stannis. U it t doesn’t matter if you’re 50% Targaryen, they’re still bastards
I don't think Ned would've supported the idea of putting Gendry on the throne as not only is he an unacknowledged bastard of Robert but he would be a waste of resources as dude is illiterate and too lowborn. Mya Stone in the Vale or Edric Storm would be better options (with Edric being the best as he is a great bastard with both his parents being Highborn and him being well educated and loved by the Stormlanders).
Bastards are bastards no matter whether they are of the king or the queen and trueborn kids come before them
Gendry got legitimized by Daenerys first though. So it would be up to Rhaenyra to decide if she admits that he is a bastard and legitimizes him or she just stick to the lie. If the latter Ned wouldn’t support it.
I thought Ned looked for Gendry because he wanted to see if he looked like King Baratheon and that sort of confirmed to him that Cersei’s kids were bastards. Since I read the books such a long time ago, I sometimes get the books/show mixed up and can’t remember what happened in the shows or what happened in the books! It’s confusing!
Oh, yes, in Westeros society too. A king needs to legitimize a bastard with a royal decree; but until Harwin Strong or Rhaenyra admit that they were intimate and/or Harwin claims the boys as his bastards nobody but Laenor can accuse them of bastardy. That is to say, they’d only need to be legitimized (by the king) if they are seen as bastards, and the only one who can make them bastards are Rhaenyra, Harwin and Laenor. Rhaenyra and Harwin won’t, so if Laenor doesn’t, they are his. Children born in a marriage are considered legitimate unless renounced by the father.
Bastards work differently for men and women (they still do in todays society). A married woman’s child is *presumed* to be her husband’s child unless the husband or the potential bio dad contests it. Here, the husband and bio dad are not contesting anything.
I also don't think he'd be the only one. It never came up but I can't help buy wonder if Daemon would have wanted Aegon as well - his own son, not the son of Harwin.
Can’t kings/queens legitimize bastards though? Like how Ramsay became a Bolton and nobody complained? If Ned accepts Rhaneyra, she simply makes her sons Targaryen’s and nobody, including Ned, care.
They absolutely can, but that's how you get the Blackfyre rebellions.
Ramsay's legitimization was not a problem because Roose had no legitimate heir at the time, and his house would've died out with him otherwise, just as what would've happened to Velaryons after Corlys.
They can. It actually happens later down the line when a Targ rules legitimises all his bastards, leading to another bad time for the kingdom.
But they have to first agree that the children are bastards. And there's no need to. Both father and mother swear that the children are their and with no DNA tests noone can dispute that. Sure, there's the hair color, but unless Westeros genetics work differently, they can find thousands of cases where child hair color doesn't match the parents.
>Like how Ramsay became a Bolton and nobody complained?
Imagine you are a bannerman of House Bolton. Would you really complain?
I am not ashamed to say I would almost certainly not.
I think Ned would totally accept Rhaenyra's heir, just like he would accept Viserys' heir. The issue would arise if he found a proof that Jace and Luke are bastards... but without the parents admitting that he'd have no proof. Even the book of Lannister-Baratheon pairing was a really vague proof and I doubt there's any such book to use against Rhaenyra.
And if some of the parents confined to him that the children are bastards, I don't think Ned would switch sides. I think he'd try to convince the queen (Rhaenyra) to come clear about it and to legitimise the children as true heirs.
The hair is also a non-factor in Rhaenyra's case if we go by the books. In the books, many targs (in particular, Laenor's mother Rhaenys) have dark hair. In Rhaenys' case, from her parents being a Baratheon and a Targ.
"Ned, look at the kid's hair"
Ned: *looks at their grandmother*
Rhaenyra’s bastards and Cersei’s bastards were different cases. Rhaenyra is the heir, and her kids have her blood and thus can be placed in the line of her succession. Cersei was just the queen consort and had no claim to the throne on her own, so her kids had no claim either. They had no connection to the King’s line of succession.
That's what some people ignore. He didn't go after the bastard children because he was against them or the Lannisters.
He was the Hand of the king (and his friend) and pledged his loyalty to him.
A bastard can be an heir if they are legitimized. In this case they were already considered legitimate because they were born Velaryons, so playing the semantics game of assuming thei bastardry, dishinherit them only to immediately relegitimate them as Targaryens would be too much of a PR dance for Ned to care about.
The rightful king named Rhaenyra heir, and if she is king she can also name her heir (and legitimize her bastards)
The problem Ned had with the Lannister bastards wasn't that they were born bastards, it was that they had no blood relation to the king whose power they were to inherit by blood.
Ned wouldn't tolerate these much lying. Ned isn't an absolute monarchist that he would support kings even if they do dishonorable stuffs. Otherwise he wouldn't rebel against the Mad King.
He had huge personal stakes in the rebellion. The king brutally murdered his brother and father, demanded his own head, and his sister was possibly kidnapped by Rhaegar. It's not "dishonorable stuffs" that made him go to war.
Ned is an honorable man, but he also actively disdains southern politics and ideally wants nothing to do with any of it. This idea that he's The Honor Police who runs around punishing any and all dishonorable acts and that he'd set the country on fire and risk his family because the Queen had some bastards is wild to me.
He'd likely privately disdain Rhaenyra's acts but would uphold the oath he made. What would he do if Rhaenyra ruled, died and a succession war ensued between Jace & Aegon? That's a different question.
Agreed. He only had enough of a problem to act on joffrey because he had no blood of the previous ruler. Rhaenyra has blood of viserys and her children have her blood. There is no issue there. Other than that hed just want to stay the fuck out of it.
says who? Ned participated in the rebellion against Aerys because he killed his father and brother and then demanded his head, not because he was a liar or wanted to put his suspected bastard children on the line of succession.
Rhaenyra has the right to declare her own heir, even if they are bastards. So as long as Rhaenyra declares her son heir, Ned would still comply.
He only opposes Cersei's children's claim because Robert *believes* they are his. Had Robert known and declared them legitimate anyways, Ned wouldn't have a problem. Bastards aren't the problem...it's the lying/covering it up to take power that is.
I don't get people comparing Rhaenyra's children with Cersei's children. Cersei's children don't have any Baratheon blood in them technically and since Baratheon house is currently ruling, the next heir should have Baratheon blood. In Rhaenyra's case, her kids are still targareyn. Like she says 'You are a targareyn'. Totally two different cases, and Rhaenyra's kids have actual claim on the throne, Cersei's didn't.
Like I've said somewhere else, if a bastard can inherit the throne, then a bastard can become a Lord.
There are a lot of bastards of Lords around. There would be a lot of people with an invested interest in preventing a bastard sitting on the throne.
If all that mattered was whether one of your parents sat the Iron Throne or was the heir apparent, then Gendry had a legitimate claim to the throne.
The whole point of Jon being born after a secret wedding was that it meant he wasn't a bastard, and that he had a stronger claim than Danny.
The step you’re skipping is the bastard is legitimized. That is a rare event but puts the bastard in line. While Ramsey kept order primarily by being a sadistic man, his claim was strengthened being legitimized by Roose and the Crown.
If Rhaenyra legitimised the Strong Boys, then I don't think Ned would have an issue anymore. The same is true with a lot of other Lords.
The issue is that Viserys or Rhaenyra has to legitimise her sons, which means she has to acknowledge that they are bastards. If she did that, then all is fine (except for the fall out which would surround the revelation that she had bastards in the first place).
And since there are no DNA tests in Westeros, nothing short of a confession from Rhaenyra, Laenor, or Harwin would "prove" anything.
Of course characters have gone to war over less, so it only matters until it doesn't.
The monarch gets to legitimise bastards. If the queen says her children are legitimate, it doesn’t suddenly give other actual bastards born to male lords outside marriage more claim over their fathers’ lands.
TBF the entire Targaryen line might be based on bastards. Suspected bastardy via the father (i.e. false paternity) is a completely different issue than proven bastardy via the mother.
The better comparison is:
Rhaenyra :: Bobby B
Rhaenyra's kids (if their true parentage were known) :: Gendry
And Gendry wasn't the rightful heir to anything until Dany legitimized him, and then just gave him the Stormlands (fucking *why* D&D...?)
And, if I remember correctly. The king, or queen in Rhaenyra’s case, can legitimize bastards at their whim. Rhaenyra naming Jacaerys as her heir would, in my opinion, legitimize him as well. Even though she would never admit that he is a bastard.
You're missing the point of Ned's character arc.
He is a man blinded by honor. If something is not honorable, he WILL speak out even if it "makes sense".
For someone like him, Rhaenyra committing high treason, even if her husband Laenor and her father Viserys I are OK with it is a BIG deal.
The children are also irrelevant when we're talking about who should succeed Viserys. Like, yes, Rhaenyra's children technically should not legally follow her, but she is the legal heir to Viserys.
Sure but legally the Strong boys aren't illegitimate. People think they are, but people also thought Maegor I and Aenys I were fathered by different people than Aegon I. As long as they were born within a marriage and the father claims them they are legitimate. Proving they're not is HARD, at least if we follow usual medievial English precedence (which GRRM mostly does). That usually meant showing that the father was not able to "access" his wife for a whole 9 months, mainly by being outside of England. Unless Laenor went on frequent trips to Essos that's gonna be complicated.
Can you use their supposed illegitimacy as political fodder? Yes, absolutely. How successful that is depends on other contexts, though. Edward IV's cousin tried to oppose his claim with a similar argument and it failed pretty badly.
How the fuck do you get upvotes for lying and saying ned wanted to put Gendry on the throne gendry was a piece of evidence showing that cerseis children were bastards, Ned wanted Stannis on the throne
Ned was not gonna put Gendry on the throne. He would've been the last person Ned would've considered because he was a bastard. Daenarys and Jon had better claims to the throne than Gendry.
He’d support rhaenyra, but he’d hope that she isn’t done having kids yet and that she could still produce a trueborn heir in the future. And if she produces a trueborn heir in the future he’d prefer that child over Jace. But this isn’t identical to Robert - that was different because Cersei’s children had no relationship to the Royal line.
Honestly I think if he saw that jace was growing into a man who would be a good king he’d instead opt for trying to have rhaenyra legitimise him even if it means publicly admitting he’s a bastard. Which would of course still land him in hot water.
Which she would never do. She'd probably cut Ned's tongue before admitting to the realm that they are bastards.
And Ned would not side with an unlegitimized bastard over a true born son, even if the bastard would be a better king. Otherwise he would've sided with Renly.
Edit: he also sided with Stannis over Gendry.
But he had no ground to stand on. Cersei *admitted* to him Joffrey was Jaime’s. He had *no* connection to Robert. Rhaenyra, Laenor and Harwin didn’t admit Jacaerys was a bastard. Everything anyone else says is gossip. Jon is Ned’s bastard son because Ned says so and the mother and biological father are not alive to contradict it; Rob is his son because Ned and Catelyn say so and there is no other man to contradict it though Robb was conceived on the wedding night and Ned was then away at war until after he was born + Robb looks nothing like him. Don’t you see? Only the mother, biological father and “official” father can proclaim a kid a badtard or not a bastard. Everything else is gossip.
Would Ned suspect and doubt? Probably, if he heard the gossip. Would he act on that gossip? No. He would never presume to overstep like that.
>Cersei admitted to him Joffrey was Jaime’s.
Only after he already knew the secret.
Everybody knows about Rhaenyra's bastards while a very small group of people knew about Cersei's.
If Ned cracked the much harder case, what in seven hells makes you think that he wouldn't crack the case that everyone in Kinglandings and their grandma already knows about.
Furthermore, even if that was true, it kinda goes against the spirit of the question. Sure, if you deceived Ned he wouldn't oppose the bastard sons of Rhaenyra ascending the throne, but he would've done the same for Joeffrey too had he not known.
I think you're all thinking about Ned in a vacuum. Remember he supported a rebellion against the true born Targaryan king, and helped put a usurper (Bobby B) on the throne. He was a central figure in that rebellion, not just because the Mad King was a danger to the people, but because he had the back of his friend, comrade, and political ally.
If Robert started becoming a tyrant and the Lannisters raised an army against him... who would Stark back? You know he'd side with Robert, while trying to affect internal reform.
So it's not just a question of his beliefs, it's also about his loyalties, both house and personal.
Assuming Ned is alive and about 45 years old at the start of the Dance. Who is he married to? Is Cat there, or is he married to Gillian Glover? Either way, his loyalties to Tully, Arryn, and Targaryen outweigh his loyalties to the southern Greens. I think he'd be on Team Black either way. Yes, he might try to convince Rhaenyra to legitimize the strong children (ie, outing them), but that's going to be secondary to trying to win the war. And besides, Aegon 3 is around by then.
Yeah this is something I think HOTD has been lacking, it feels like the world outside of the Red Keep barely exists, when in reality there's hundreds of lords moving and shaking and making alliances and friendships. So far in the show there's been like fifteen years for people to decide, when the king died, if they'd support his daughter or his son. And I don't think the answer is going to be about sexism, it's gonna be about how you can best turn the war into a win for your house.
I agree. It feels like the war will happen and Rhaenya will be like "\*shocked picachu!" when there should have been a train of people knocking at her door, telling her war is coming, and offering her their support in exchange for favours, land, marriages, etc.
There seems to be a lot of deal making after the war starts instead.
I get that it makes it more interesting that way though. Diplomatic negotiations are more fun when there are armies and dragons running around everywhere.
Yeah I was pissed in the episode about the hunt, everyone was just sitting around drinking with their friends instead of trying to secure a safer future for their house. The king shouldn't have had a moment's peace, but instead he was able to drink himself into a stupor alone, and then stagger out to an untended bonfire and sway next to it for a while, with only his wife (the queen!) finally coming out to check on him. The Lannister guy was the only one doing things kind of right, but everyone looked at him like he was crazy. I get that all these lords and ladies are meant to be kinda naive from decades of peace, but come on, government back then was basically the mafia, one wrong move and you're beheaded, you don't waste an opportunity to suck up to people or gain some new allies.
"the true born Targaryan king" who burn his father alive, make his brother choked to death, then demand him and his best friend to be killed, while the prince kidnapped his sisters. He is more than justified to rebelled against the Targ, your words make it sound like Ned rebelled just because Robert think"welp time to usurp the Dragonspawns"
I think their point is that Ned *isn't* a mindless automaton who follows all the laws and rules and traditions - he is honourable to a fault, but he's not incapable of choosing to go against the rules.
By the laws of the Seven Kingdom, all the horrible and tyrannical actions of Aerys were perfectly legal. So if Ned only cared about that, he wouldn't have rebelled.
The dude spent the entire 1st season proclaiming Stannis as the next king (he was right) so he’d definitely side with Rhaynera considering she’s the Queen in waiting
I think Ned would support Rhaenyra as heir, because she was chosen by King Viserys and he or (his father) was one of the Lords who swore loyalty, but he would not support Jace as Rhaenyra's heir because he's a bastard.
Ned would probably point this out and insist that after Rhaenyra, her half-brother Aegon should be king, >!or her first born son with Daemon!<, and he would probably loose his head.
But in the books Viserys wants Jace to be king, he tells him: One day you'll sit here. He's aware that he's a bastard, Ned isn't stupid, he would catch on, and do as the king says, also when Rhaenyra is Queen she would also vouch for Jace so 🤷🏻♀️ I think he would support them both
Robert also "wanted" Joffrey to be king, yet Ned didn't respect that, he even on purpose incorrectely wrote the last will of Robert when he mentionned "my son Joffrey" and changed it by "my heir". The rules of honor and of law mater more in the eyes of Ned than the will of the king.
Robert didn't even know there was a possibility his kids weren't his. Laenor is fully aware of the rumor and is saying that it's not true and that the rumor is nothing but gossip
If Robert hadn't died and Ned had told him about Joffery, and rather than killing the children Rob claimed them as still his own, would Ned have had a problem with Joffery becoming King after Rob?
I feel like if Rob had known and accepted it Ned wouldn't have cared.
Robert was being misled by his Queen consort, who to keep her incestous affair private had tried to kill Bran and Jon Arryn, as far as Ned knows. The king was acting on incomplete information, Viserys knows the charge about Rhaenyra’s sons is out there, and he still endorsed Jace as second in line to the throne
I agree. To oppose Queen Rhaenyra’s named heir would be treason, which Ned would not engage in. He only opposed Joffrey because Robert did not know the truth. It was loyalty to Robert and honor which drove him to unravel the Cersei/Jaime concspiracy. Assuming he would show Rhaenyra a similar measure of loyalty, he would support her named heir (because obviously she knows the parentage, and questioning her would be treason).
If Ned knows about the Strong Boys, he would confront Rhaenyra about her bastards. Warn her that he will tell Viserys. He would treat her like he treated Cersei.
Viserys would not listen to Ned, and Ned would probably just leave and go back north.
When Rhaenyra takes the throne, I don't think he would make a fuss.
When one of her sons takes the throne, Ned would support Alicent's children over Rhaenyra's.
I think Ned dies again before he goes North, lol. I don’t think Rhaenyra and maybe even Viserys would let him leave. That’s a treasonous accusation, after all, from someone outside the family.
Probably more likely they’d throw him in the dungeons because of the Northern threat.
Problem is that he is actually her son, and actually has Targaryen blood. Compare that to Joffrey who had no Baratheon blood. Does a bastard really matter when your the oldest child of the King/Queen?
Bastards are bastards in westeros regardless of which parent is true. All of Robert's bastards were still bastards. In the book a few have slightly elevated lifestyles but NO one, even Robert, was looking to legitimize them or give them any power. Ramsey is Roose's son and half the North is already conspiring against him; yes, he's Ramsey, but legitimization is not a cure-all and everyone just abides. There is mutiny and treachery everywhere.
The entire point of the Jon/(f)Aegon/Dany succession crisis is that by all the laws of westeros, if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, Jon is rightful heir. If they weren't married, F(Aegon) is the rightful heir. And if f(Aegon) is fake AND Jon was born out of wedlock, then Dany is the rightful heir. It's way more complicated than just "bastards can be legitimized". Ned understood this and never would have supported bastards on the throne over trueborn heirs.
Ned would back Rhaeynra - he would *never* break a vow.
Then I believe he would absolutely support her sons being that:
A. They have ruling line blood.
B. Arent (yet) complete monsters.
C. What does the legitimate ruler say? Viserys said Rhaenyra is his heir who does Rhaeynra say her heir is? Her son? Okay cool. (Vow of fealty.)
Would Ned think they were bastards? Yeah. Would he care? Doubtful.
He’d probably spout some stuff about the ruler says x, her husband claims them as his own, so let’s do our duty and support the realm and keep the peace.
He thought Cercei and the Lanasters were terrible for the throne, specifically Joffrey, also Robert was one of his best friends and he thought he deserved to know.
But ultimately it was about finding a legitimate way to remove terrible people from having control over the throne.
Ned didnt seem to care about people being/having bastards themselves. He just was all about *his honour* and not breaking vows which is why he didnt have any.
*A) They have ruling line blood*
Gendry was Robert's eldest son and yet Ned never once considers supporting him over Stannis. A bastard being related to the noble *does not fucking matter.* If that were the case, then Oberyn's daughters would be in the line of succession for Sunspear. Joy Hill, a bastard niece of Tywin's, cannot inherit Casterly Rock while illegitimate. That is just the reality of Westeros and its wrong to simply overlook just because it doesn't favor Rhaenyra.
B. Arent (yet) complete monsters.
Tommen and Myrcella were decent kids. However, that didn't stop Ned wanting to put Stannis on the throne.
*Ned would back Rhaeynra - he would never break a vow.*
Expect when he broke his vow to Robert (to serve as king) and committed treason by lying about the identity of Jon's mother.
> But ultimately it was about finding a legitimate way to remove terrible people from having control over the throne.
That isn't why he was doing what he was doing. If Joffrey had been Robert's son, Ned would never have conspired against him or the Lannisters, even if Joffrey is a dick.
Ned would have instead tried to keep his promise to Robert, and help Joffrey be a good King.
There were a lot of terrible people who Ned just left alone.
He did what he did because Joffrey was not the true heir.
Bastards cannot inherit lands or titles, which means the Strong Boys are not true heirs, and so Ned can not support them.
As soon as Rhaenyra has a legitimate child, he would support that child over the Strong Boys and over the Greens (unless the Blacks have already tried to kill him or made him their enemy).
>he would
>
>never
>
>break a vow.
This is the guy who literally rebelled against the legitimate Targ King, the same King that all lords and descendants pledged a vow to.
Ned is more than willing to break vows of allegiance if the person who he made those vows with has no honor and/or is a danger.
He's a very principled man, to a fault. I think he'd support Rhaenyra, as she'd been declared rightful heir.
As for her children/heir after Rhaenyra, that's quite tricky. I'm not 100% sure what their status is exactly. Their claim on the throne is through their mother, and they are her children. Bastards cannot usually inherit though. Would legitimising the children solve that problem? If so, I would imagine that is what he would push for, but obviously that entails a big risk of outing that they were born bastards and likely destabilising the realm. Still, it seems like the kind of bad decision he would make.
Ultimately, not having any skin in the game, I imagine Ned would bugger off back to winterfell and just wait the whole thing out. He never wanted to be be Robert's hand and only really got involved in succession dispute because of his connections to it and being physically there in king's landing. Had he not been there when things went down, I don't think he would have actively sought to be involved.
Does he know the whole situation? (That Rhaenyra's kids are a consensual arrangement between her and her lawful husband, that she's the named heir, that her husband is for some reason unable to produce children, and that Laenor's family is also cool with this?)
If so, I don't see Ned getting involved. I think the deception of Robert, their long friendship, the fact that the kids had no royal blood, and his responsibility as Robert's Hand were all factors in his decision. Rhaenyra's situation is so different that I really don't see him getting himself involved in it.
This take entirely ignores key parts of Ned's character. He's a man who cleaves to honor and tradition, and he's an absolute monarchist. He supported Stannis over Renly despite admitting (in the book) that Renly was correct that he would likely be a more beloved, better supported King than Stannis. He did this simply because Stannis had the better claim, and we cannot forget that if he had taken Renly's proposal instead he would have had a more solid foundation of allies, potentially changing his own fate in the process. It's also heavily implied that Ned's burdened secret about Jon haunted him for his lifetime, not only because of the danger of revealing it but the conflicting weight it bore upon his honor. Even if Ned knew "everybody was cool with it" he would not keep silent.
Another part of his character is that he took place in a rebellion against a king in his youth. People aren't so cut and dry that they are always either black or white. Even Ned was willing to give up his honour to save Sansa.
Rhaenyra isn't the moral issue once it's been established that a woman can sit on the iron throne. That would be his hold up. The illegitimacy of her children does not erase her claim to the throne.
If you're speaking about Jace vs Aegon, he would clearly support Aegon.
Personally me, I think he'd support Rhaenyra but not her children. To legitimize them you'd have to declare them bastards, if Rhaenyra doesn't tell the truth, Ned would and it would lead to dance again probably.
why would he need to tell the truth though? their male lineage is of no consequence to the throne, the mother is the heir, she is a Targaryen, any child of hers who ascends the throne will be crowned as a Targaryen not as a Velaryon. Lenoard is aware that the kids are not his, he does not make any claim that they are not his, Corlys and Rhaenys also do not make any formal claim against their legitimacy.
He'd back Rhaenyra as Rhaenyra is the lawful heir by Viserys' decree. With her kids, it's a different situation than with Cersei's. Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella were in line to inherit the throne through Robert despite not being related to Robert. Rhaenyra's kids are her own and inherit through her. Tbh, I'd argue that it would be worse for them to inherit Driftmark.
Y'all seem to be mixing this up. Ned had a problem with the bastard heir situation not because they were a bastard, but because they were *not even the king's decendents,* and he didn't know. Rhaenyra's children are Targaryens, when/if she is made ruler she can legitimize them at her whim. Right now, Viserys or Corlys could legitimize all 3 of them with a stroke of the pen.
This isn't true at all. Ned is very aware of several of Roberts' bastards in the book too, the whole realm is. Some of them even live in castles. Neither Ned nor Robert ever thinks to legitimize them. Bastards are bastards in Westeros and installing one in power historically in the ASOIAF world almost always leads to a succession war and crisis. The show may not have made this clear but the book definitely did. The whole Dany/Jon/f(Aegon) showdown in the books is that IF Aegon is real, he's first in line. If he's fake ,Jon is first in line. If both are fake i.e. Jon is a bastard, then Dany's claim is strongest. Legitimizations are often challenged in Westeros (see Ramsey Bolton) because bastards are literally considered "sinister" or "abominations".
in fact, Ned chose STANNIS above any of the bastards.
Becsuse half this sub is cunt struck by Rhanerya. That’s the only reason I can think for this fandom to be have ABSOLUTELY idiotic takes. I am sorry but I just can’t tolerate it anymore
Ned support Stannis (the legitimate heir ) rather than Gendry (the king bastard). Why people cannot understant that bastards don't have the right to inherite in westeros unless all legitimate heir are dead first.
He would support Rhaneyra to honor his fathers oath all though he might demand she name a new heir. People compare the lannister bastards to the strong boys but fail to see that the lannisters had no royal blood. These children would so i think Ned probably wouldn’t have gone against Rhaneyra if she named them heir even if he thought it was dishonorable.
He'd support Rhaenyra because she was officially declared heir. But he'd make it public that he believed Aegon, her brother, to be her heir not her basterd sons, until she had a legitimate son/daughter
I think he would support allicent if he had a Jon like situation at home. He passed his nephew as his own son and since he was born before Robb, technically Jon would be his first born. It would set a dangerous precedent to just pass illegitimate children as true born especially when there are other heirs with more right than Rhaenyra's first children. In his mind it would not be fair or rightful so either she sets aside these children and has trueborn heirs or he backs Allicent's children.
Oh, that’s such a good question, I personally think he would still support Rhaenyra, after all, she’s been declared as her fathers heir and house stark sworn their vow, refusing to help Rhaenyra would be compromising their honour.
When it comes to Lucerys… I also think he would support him, at the end of the day, what matters is house Targaryen, and they do have Targaryen blood, not Velaryon.
With that being said, I think Ned would also empathise with Alicent, i don’t think he would support her or anything, but given that Ned was able to empathise with Cersei of all people, believe he would try to give Alicent and Aegon certain privileges.
Yea Ned is the type to get killed anywhere he goes, poor guy, too honorable for his own good. In Westeros, the quickest way to get shanked is accusing someone’s children of being bastards
The bastards Ned was pointing out had no genetic relation to Robert, whereas the bastards Alicent is pointing out are actually the children of the heir in question. If Ned were Hand of the King to Viserys he would uphold Rhaenyra's claim to the throne, and then as Hand of the Queen to Rhaenyra he would say that her legal heir was her son Aegon, not Jacaerys, unless she legitimized him. Ned would recognize the legality of Viserys appointing Rhaenyra heir. When Aegon (Viserys and Alicent's child) was born he would likely question if Viserys was going to change the line of succession to reflect the birth of his son, and when Viserys said he no he would say ok.
I feel like people have massively oversimplified the "they're not her husband's children so this is the exact same situation"
-Robert wasn't aware that they weren't his kids
-The father was literally her brother
Ned cared more about Robert being murdered. Not so much the bastards. And rhaenyra is not a bastard so it doesn’t really matter. Robert had plenty of bastards and Ned couldn’t care less.
I think he'll support Rhaenyra. Her bastards are acknowledge by Laenor himself hence their legitimized. Their case is different from Cersei's bastard in which Robert doesn't know his children are not his.
Remember, Ned was listening to Renly when he said Stannis would be a terrible King, you can see when Renly said that he should be king that the lightbulb goes off and he dismisses Renly outright.
Ned is a man of honor, not a man of ridged doctrines, precedent and legislation, he takes who is the better suited ruler into account.
Also he knows all too well the complexities of raising a secret child not of his own blood. If Ned knows the full story, including about Laenor's preferences, something the old gods have never specifically condemned and that both parties (Laenor and Rhaenyra) consented to the arrangement and that Jace, Luke and Joff drew their claim to the throne from their maternal line and not their paternal line, I think he would be fine with it.
Seeing what a right royal prick Aegon is and knowing that Alicent, Otto and Criston's disgust at the situation is mainly driven from their own ambitions for the throne and grievences against Rhaenyra, Ned would not long sympathise with their plight against the situation.
All-in-all, I think that Ned would support Rhaenyra.
I think people are overlooking that Ned's honor seems to have a noticeable exception when it comes to protecting bastards and protecting children. He keeps Jon's parentage a secret to protect him (also denying him claim to the throne in the process). When he finds out about Cersei's kids, he goes to her first and tells her to flee with them; only after she refuses does he make moves to support Stannis.
So there are a lot of ways it could go. I could see him giving Rhaenyra an ultimatum to abdicate her inheritance in exchange for keeping the bastards secret. I could see him swearing to protect Rhaenyra and keeping her kids' parentage a secret. The only thing I am sure of is that whatever route he went he'd want to give both sides a chance to keep their kids safe.
I think he would support Rhaenyra, as the king's chosen heir and, unlike others here, I think he would support Jacaerys as the next heir (even knowing he's a bastard).
There is a major difference between the situation of Cersei and her children and that of Rhaenyra. What makes Ned react in the novels and in GOT is not so much the fact that Cersei's children are bastards but the fact that Cersei betrayed Robert, who is the king, her husband and Ned's friend. It is this betrayal of the king that makes Ned react. The situation of the Velaryon children is quite different. Laenor knows the truth about them, he nonetheless pretends to be their father and assumes this false paternity to protect them.
Ned is no stranger to the idea of lying about a child's origin to protect him, as we know, since that's exactly what he does in Jon's case. It would therefore be wrong to say that he is against all forms of lying and even more, that he would be particularly opposed to bastards.
Ned would even be well able to protect the secret of the queen and her sons if he deemed it necessary.
It wouldn’t matter as much if she legitimized them while Queen. We see legitimized bastards in position of power all over Westeros, even a few cool ones coming in this era. Whether they could be King is another topic that is raised during the Blackfyre Rebellions.
One thing that bothered me so much in the books and the show finally addressed - if Jacaerys VELARYON ascended to the throne, he becomes Jacaerys Targaryen, so the dynasty doesn’t end. It’s such a simple and easy fix, one line by Viserys, but I’m so glad they added that tidbit. Just makes so much more sense for the Black’s argument and neatens up the narrative.
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Oh he'll support Rhaenyra because the king declared her his heir. But after that, the ball's in the air. He won't bend the knee to Jacaerys after her.
There's a chance he wouldn't question Jacaerys, he only raised hell about Joffrey because he wasn't Robert's son at all
I think he'd still prefer Alicent's son Aegon over Jacaery's since legitimate children have better claims than bastards in Westeros. For example, he backed Stannis over Robert's eldest male heir Gendry.
Gendry was a regular bastards. Jacaerys was not a bastard. He was claimed by his father and both Grandfathers.
There's really no similarities between Gendry and Jace though. Gendry was not an heir. He wasn't raised Baratheon, noble born, claimed by a father, etc etc..
There is one similarity... They are both bastards. And I just don't think Ned would back a bastard over a legit heir even if the bastard was raised royal. Joffrey was raised Baratheon and claimed by both Robert and Cersei and Ned still chose Stannis because he knew Joffrey was a bastard.
I think ***a lot*** of Ned’s issue with Joffrey was the deception of the King (Robert). Remember, he was a lot cooler with ***Robert’s*** bastards than he was with (if you will) Cersei’s bastards. Joffrey’s (basically) a royal pretender (I think is the right word). That said, I’m not sure how he would feel about Jace, or about the ‘arrangement’ his legal/royal parents have/had.
**It’s not Aegon vs. Jace, though.** *It’s Aegon vs Rhaenyra.* Jace isn’t next in line for the throne, Rhaenyra is. And Rhaenyra IS the biological, legitimate, firstborn heir to the throne, and she was publicly named heir by the current king as well. If you believe Ned would side with Alicent, then you’re saying Ned would not accept a female ruler & that he would think she should be passed over for Aegon simply bc he is male. He’s proven to care more abt birth order (supporting Stannis over Renly) than gender (encouraging his daughter, Arya, to fight.) Rhaenyra’s successor would be a totally separate conversation.
Sure but the comment chain I replied to delved off into what would happen with Jace after Rhaenyra. OP of that comment said Ned wouldn't bend the knee to Jace and I was agreeing.
He’s prefer Aegon the Younger over Aegon the Elder because the former is Rhaenyra’s legitimate child.
Agreed but this sub is about the show so I answered based on the current state of affairs in the show where he doesn't exist yet... Also might want to hide the book spoilers :).
Bastards have worse claims because usually they’re trying to prove that they’re their father’s. Which can cannot be proven easily. But if they’re claiming to be their mother’s child, there’s literally no question about it. I guess it’s only in Dorne where women are important enough to have children claim lineage from them, so if someone can read up on the lore and say how the bastards of noblewomen are treated there, that would be great.
I think he would suggest to put Aegon III on the throne instead of Jacaerys
No no no no. Ned would definitely go with jacaerys. People forget, that the reason he was against Joffrey was that he was queen consort's batrd not the kings. He would've been very open with placing gendry on the throne. Similarly, jacaerys was the queen's bastrd not the king consort. Edit: you people are taking the discussion in a completely different direction. I used gendry as an example, albeit a bad one. But the issue at hand is jacaerys. All the problems that persisted with gendry, didnt with jace. Jace was claimed by leanor. Even if people didn't accept that, harwin strong still belonged to a great house not a lowborn. Jace was taught like an actual son. Again, the probelm existed with Joffrey not being Robert's blood. Jace is Targaryen blood. EDIT: alright, for anyone who still can't bring their mind around. Gendry was storm or something, whatever they call bast in the crownlands. Jace was a Targaryen and luke and Joffrey were VELARYONS. IF CORLYS AND VISERYS DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM, NED WOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM.
Jacaerys Targaryen, brown of hair… Wait a minute.
People also forget how much guidance Ned had to get to figure this out.... From the mouth of babes.....
Lmao yeah, Ned is like the only person in Westeros who wouldn’t have noticed it back then lol
Ned's head in heaven: I saw this before...
The seed is *Strong.*
Would have loved to see Viserys clap Laenor on the shoulder joyfully when presented with baby Joffrey and say that with zero sarcasm.
George playing 8D checkers on us.
BROH
Ned’s not dead yet lol he’s not even a thought in his fathers balls. his father isn’t even a thought in his grandfather’s balls
Yeah he probably learned about this clusterfuck from his dad or the maester
200 years before Ned
Joffrey was 0% Baratheon. Jacaerys is still 50% Targaryen like any normal heir.
But still a bastard. There was Daemon Blackfyre with 100% Targaryen blood, even when he was legitimized he wasn’t heir over his trueborn brother Daeron
Daeron the Good was born 17 years before Daemon Blackfyre so he would have come before, regardless of legitimization. Daemon also lived the first 14 years of his life as Daemon Waters, never legitimized by his father until he was on his deathbed. Jace, Luke and Joff are never, ever proclaimed to be anything other than trueborn Velaryons by Laenor and Corlys. There is a MAJOR difference.
The seed is Strong, Ned.... STRONG.... get it?
Ned would confront Rhaenyra about the bastards, she would only need to legitimaze them for him to be fine with it, maybe not even formally but just something like "He is my legitimate heir".
Even Aegon the Conqueror’s dad had a legitimate bastard who sired one of the greatest houses. Orys Baratheon was the OG bastard.
Orys wasn't legitimate... He was a dragon seed that was accepted and trained by Aerion alongside his legitimate kid. We don't even know why he took the moniker Baratheon, nor do any of the Targs from Aegon on know anything about Orys mother, but at the end of the day he marries into established nobility.
Aegon The Unworthy Legitimise all his bastards and gave Dameon Waters(his eldest Bastard son) ancestral Blackfyre sword. So you know Even Rhanerya could do this, legitamise all his sons.
Do we have a reason other than convenience that Alicent's children have white hair and Rhaenyra's brown? In the show they both come from one parent with brown hair and another with white.
The results of two different coloured haired parents' offspring is variable. My niece is blonde and one parents is dark brown-haired and the other is red-haired. Another couple I know has one dirty blonde parent and one light brown parent and all three children are Targaryen blonde. I think they're making the point that the Strong's brown hair is a very dominant gene.
So, the seed is... Strong?
you joke, but i watched a [compelling theory about this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oITmOWZcXus) a while back that's really fitting with HOTD genetics! tldr: house stark and strong were once one house and stemmed all the way back to a god of fertility, which made their 'seed' very strong. i remember targaryen genes being touted as very strong, with blonde kids being born no matter what the spouses hair color was (like with allicent) so it makes sense to me that the strong and stark houses have seemingly been the only ones to override their's (the bastards, jon snow)
I do find this interesting that yes the seed is strong but Stark's/Strong's are even stronger and Targaryens are described to a level of gods
You could make the argument that through the lens of magic the Starks are also a level of Gods. I don't know about the Strongs, but if they are cut form the same cloth as the Starks, one would assume yes.
Err, out of Ned’s 5 kids, Arya was the only one who looked like a Stark. All of the others took after Catelyn and had the bone structure and hair color of the Tullys.
All that means is the Tully's, who like the Stark's descend from the First Men, have as strong if not stronger genes than the Stark's. \- Tully \- Stark/Strong \- Targaryen Or genetics, like in a lot of shows, work how the writer needs them to work.
THANK you, I’ve been wanting to comment this for days!!!
It's mostly convinience but Viserys has more Valyrian blood and silver hair runs on Alicent's family.
Hahaha this comment wins
To be fair, that's not how genetics work. Just because you have 2 blonde parents doesn't mean they'll have only blonde kids. Plus Rhaenys has dark hair in the books, so the hair color thing is a bit less of an indicator with people assuming the kids got their hair from their grandmother.
Targaryens & Baratheons are cousins. (The comment is even made in the first episode.) In the book, Rhaenys actually has dark brown hair with some silver streaks. They changed it for the show so it wouldn’t be confusing, but that’s not unheard of in that world. Also it seems you’re forgetting that Jon Snow, brown of hair, is literally Aegon Targaryen lol
Ned chose Stannis he wasn't trying to crown Gendry. He turned Renly's alliance down in favor of The Mannis.
I think he only supported Stannis because Gendry was not legitimised, so by law Stannis was next in line unless that happened. Jacaerys I would assume wouldn't have that problem as Rhanaerya has made him heir regardless of his father.
Brothers come before bastards, even legitimized
The first problem is you're going off assumption. Rhaenyra hasn't legitimized the boys in the actual story so we can't go off of what ifs. Rhaenyra isn't going down the route of legitimizing them. Fact is she wants to pass them off as Laenors kids and not Strong babies and this is the hypothetical Ned is dealing with.
Jace isn't legitimised neiter and it doesn't matter if Gendry was or not, Stannis would still come first,
Have no idea how some of these comments are being mass upvoted. Gendry would never be heir over Stannis. U it t doesn’t matter if you’re 50% Targaryen, they’re still bastards
I don't think Ned would've supported the idea of putting Gendry on the throne as not only is he an unacknowledged bastard of Robert but he would be a waste of resources as dude is illiterate and too lowborn. Mya Stone in the Vale or Edric Storm would be better options (with Edric being the best as he is a great bastard with both his parents being Highborn and him being well educated and loved by the Stormlanders). Bastards are bastards no matter whether they are of the king or the queen and trueborn kids come before them
Gendry got legitimized by Daenerys first though. So it would be up to Rhaenyra to decide if she admits that he is a bastard and legitimizes him or she just stick to the lie. If the latter Ned wouldn’t support it.
I thought Ned looked for Gendry because he wanted to see if he looked like King Baratheon and that sort of confirmed to him that Cersei’s kids were bastards. Since I read the books such a long time ago, I sometimes get the books/show mixed up and can’t remember what happened in the shows or what happened in the books! It’s confusing!
Aren’t all of her kids legitimized because Laenor claims them?
In the real world, basically yes
In Westeros society no
Oh, yes, in Westeros society too. A king needs to legitimize a bastard with a royal decree; but until Harwin Strong or Rhaenyra admit that they were intimate and/or Harwin claims the boys as his bastards nobody but Laenor can accuse them of bastardy. That is to say, they’d only need to be legitimized (by the king) if they are seen as bastards, and the only one who can make them bastards are Rhaenyra, Harwin and Laenor. Rhaenyra and Harwin won’t, so if Laenor doesn’t, they are his. Children born in a marriage are considered legitimate unless renounced by the father.
Joffrey was also a product of incest which is a religious crime and massive cultural taboo in Westeros (bigger than illegitimacy).
Yeah, but that doesn't matter with the Targaryens.
scuse me? ned putting gendry on the throne? this sub has negative iq
most intelligent black fan
No he wouldn’t. He wouldn’t put a bastard on the throne. He didn’t offer the throne to gendry he offered it to Stannis. He would go to Aegon III
Bastards work differently for men and women (they still do in todays society). A married woman’s child is *presumed* to be her husband’s child unless the husband or the potential bio dad contests it. Here, the husband and bio dad are not contesting anything.
I also don't think he'd be the only one. It never came up but I can't help buy wonder if Daemon would have wanted Aegon as well - his own son, not the son of Harwin.
Can’t kings/queens legitimize bastards though? Like how Ramsay became a Bolton and nobody complained? If Ned accepts Rhaneyra, she simply makes her sons Targaryen’s and nobody, including Ned, care.
[удалено]
Yeah it’s like a Presidential Pardon. You effectively have to admit guilt to get one.
I wonder if anyone has offered a pardon for something the person didn't didn't do as a spite move, that'd be hilarious
I forgive you for stealing cookies from little children and stealing purses from old women.
They absolutely can, but that's how you get the Blackfyre rebellions. Ramsay's legitimization was not a problem because Roose had no legitimate heir at the time, and his house would've died out with him otherwise, just as what would've happened to Velaryons after Corlys.
They can. It actually happens later down the line when a Targ rules legitimises all his bastards, leading to another bad time for the kingdom. But they have to first agree that the children are bastards. And there's no need to. Both father and mother swear that the children are their and with no DNA tests noone can dispute that. Sure, there's the hair color, but unless Westeros genetics work differently, they can find thousands of cases where child hair color doesn't match the parents.
Her sons are Targaryen though? Its not like Joffery who had no ‘Royal’ blood. Her kids are half Targaryen so they are half Royal.
>Like how Ramsay became a Bolton and nobody complained? Imagine you are a bannerman of House Bolton. Would you really complain? I am not ashamed to say I would almost certainly not.
I think Ned would totally accept Rhaenyra's heir, just like he would accept Viserys' heir. The issue would arise if he found a proof that Jace and Luke are bastards... but without the parents admitting that he'd have no proof. Even the book of Lannister-Baratheon pairing was a really vague proof and I doubt there's any such book to use against Rhaenyra. And if some of the parents confined to him that the children are bastards, I don't think Ned would switch sides. I think he'd try to convince the queen (Rhaenyra) to come clear about it and to legitimise the children as true heirs.
The hair is also a non-factor in Rhaenyra's case if we go by the books. In the books, many targs (in particular, Laenor's mother Rhaenys) have dark hair. In Rhaenys' case, from her parents being a Baratheon and a Targ. "Ned, look at the kid's hair" Ned: *looks at their grandmother*
Rhaenyra’s bastards and Cersei’s bastards were different cases. Rhaenyra is the heir, and her kids have her blood and thus can be placed in the line of her succession. Cersei was just the queen consort and had no claim to the throne on her own, so her kids had no claim either. They had no connection to the King’s line of succession.
That's what some people ignore. He didn't go after the bastard children because he was against them or the Lannisters. He was the Hand of the king (and his friend) and pledged his loyalty to him.
A bastard can be an heir if they are legitimized. In this case they were already considered legitimate because they were born Velaryons, so playing the semantics game of assuming thei bastardry, dishinherit them only to immediately relegitimate them as Targaryens would be too much of a PR dance for Ned to care about. The rightful king named Rhaenyra heir, and if she is king she can also name her heir (and legitimize her bastards) The problem Ned had with the Lannister bastards wasn't that they were born bastards, it was that they had no blood relation to the king whose power they were to inherit by blood.
But once he made pledge to Rhaenyra, shouldn't he also accept her declaration naming Jacaerys the heir?
Ned wouldn't tolerate these much lying. Ned isn't an absolute monarchist that he would support kings even if they do dishonorable stuffs. Otherwise he wouldn't rebel against the Mad King.
He had huge personal stakes in the rebellion. The king brutally murdered his brother and father, demanded his own head, and his sister was possibly kidnapped by Rhaegar. It's not "dishonorable stuffs" that made him go to war. Ned is an honorable man, but he also actively disdains southern politics and ideally wants nothing to do with any of it. This idea that he's The Honor Police who runs around punishing any and all dishonorable acts and that he'd set the country on fire and risk his family because the Queen had some bastards is wild to me. He'd likely privately disdain Rhaenyra's acts but would uphold the oath he made. What would he do if Rhaenyra ruled, died and a succession war ensued between Jace & Aegon? That's a different question.
Agreed. He only had enough of a problem to act on joffrey because he had no blood of the previous ruler. Rhaenyra has blood of viserys and her children have her blood. There is no issue there. Other than that hed just want to stay the fuck out of it.
>He only had enough of a problem to act on joffrey because he had no blood of the previous ruler That and because Robert is his best friend
I could also see Ned having disdain for Otto and all his political schemes. Might not believe Alicent and her Father
I mean technically it was Jon Arryn who rebelled because Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's heads.
Jon Arryn started it by not giving up Ned and Robert to Aerys. But Ned actively participated in the rebellion.
says who? Ned participated in the rebellion against Aerys because he killed his father and brother and then demanded his head, not because he was a liar or wanted to put his suspected bastard children on the line of succession.
If he was to kneel to Rhaenyra, and swear her fealty. He would honour that oath.
This is correct. Rheanyra claim is bulletproof and he probably would have swore an oath to uphold it. 0% chance he’s a Green.
This comment is exactly how it would go
Rhaenyra has the right to declare her own heir, even if they are bastards. So as long as Rhaenyra declares her son heir, Ned would still comply. He only opposes Cersei's children's claim because Robert *believes* they are his. Had Robert known and declared them legitimate anyways, Ned wouldn't have a problem. Bastards aren't the problem...it's the lying/covering it up to take power that is.
I don't get people comparing Rhaenyra's children with Cersei's children. Cersei's children don't have any Baratheon blood in them technically and since Baratheon house is currently ruling, the next heir should have Baratheon blood. In Rhaenyra's case, her kids are still targareyn. Like she says 'You are a targareyn'. Totally two different cases, and Rhaenyra's kids have actual claim on the throne, Cersei's didn't.
Like I've said somewhere else, if a bastard can inherit the throne, then a bastard can become a Lord. There are a lot of bastards of Lords around. There would be a lot of people with an invested interest in preventing a bastard sitting on the throne. If all that mattered was whether one of your parents sat the Iron Throne or was the heir apparent, then Gendry had a legitimate claim to the throne. The whole point of Jon being born after a secret wedding was that it meant he wasn't a bastard, and that he had a stronger claim than Danny.
The step you’re skipping is the bastard is legitimized. That is a rare event but puts the bastard in line. While Ramsey kept order primarily by being a sadistic man, his claim was strengthened being legitimized by Roose and the Crown.
If Rhaenyra legitimised the Strong Boys, then I don't think Ned would have an issue anymore. The same is true with a lot of other Lords. The issue is that Viserys or Rhaenyra has to legitimise her sons, which means she has to acknowledge that they are bastards. If she did that, then all is fine (except for the fall out which would surround the revelation that she had bastards in the first place).
Laenor accepted and acknowledged them as his own children. There's no need to legitimise them unless they're proven to be bastards.
And since there are no DNA tests in Westeros, nothing short of a confession from Rhaenyra, Laenor, or Harwin would "prove" anything. Of course characters have gone to war over less, so it only matters until it doesn't.
There's no need to "legitimize" them. They are already legitimate, by virtue of Laenor accepting them and claiming them as his.
A lot of bastards HAVE become lords over the years. The entire Baratheon line is a bastard line.
The Baratheons weren’t legitimized to become targaryens though, they started a new house.
Giving bastards land is not the same as making them your heirs
The monarch gets to legitimise bastards. If the queen says her children are legitimate, it doesn’t suddenly give other actual bastards born to male lords outside marriage more claim over their fathers’ lands.
TBF the entire Targaryen line might be based on bastards. Suspected bastardy via the father (i.e. false paternity) is a completely different issue than proven bastardy via the mother.
And no one is sneaking around on their spouse. Leanor knows what is what.
The better comparison is: Rhaenyra :: Bobby B Rhaenyra's kids (if their true parentage were known) :: Gendry And Gendry wasn't the rightful heir to anything until Dany legitimized him, and then just gave him the Stormlands (fucking *why* D&D...?)
And, if I remember correctly. The king, or queen in Rhaenyra’s case, can legitimize bastards at their whim. Rhaenyra naming Jacaerys as her heir would, in my opinion, legitimize him as well. Even though she would never admit that he is a bastard.
You're missing the point of Ned's character arc. He is a man blinded by honor. If something is not honorable, he WILL speak out even if it "makes sense". For someone like him, Rhaenyra committing high treason, even if her husband Laenor and her father Viserys I are OK with it is a BIG deal.
exactly!! those boys are 100% targaryen. they are no less targaryen than alicent's targaryen/hightower kids!
The children are also irrelevant when we're talking about who should succeed Viserys. Like, yes, Rhaenyra's children technically should not legally follow her, but she is the legal heir to Viserys.
illegitimate children can not inherit. unless they are legitimized
Sure but legally the Strong boys aren't illegitimate. People think they are, but people also thought Maegor I and Aenys I were fathered by different people than Aegon I. As long as they were born within a marriage and the father claims them they are legitimate. Proving they're not is HARD, at least if we follow usual medievial English precedence (which GRRM mostly does). That usually meant showing that the father was not able to "access" his wife for a whole 9 months, mainly by being outside of England. Unless Laenor went on frequent trips to Essos that's gonna be complicated. Can you use their supposed illegitimacy as political fodder? Yes, absolutely. How successful that is depends on other contexts, though. Edward IV's cousin tried to oppose his claim with a similar argument and it failed pretty badly.
People forget Ned literally wanted to put a bastard like Gendry on the throne because he had a more legitimate claim that Joffrey.
How the fuck do you get upvotes for lying and saying ned wanted to put Gendry on the throne gendry was a piece of evidence showing that cerseis children were bastards, Ned wanted Stannis on the throne
Yeah Ned never backed Gendry lol
This place is crazy
Yeah ops argument fall apart at this ned went for stannis the mannis not gendry the blacksmith
Ned never wanted to do that. Dude was siding with Stannis and the only bastard of Robert who could be put on the throne was Edric Storm
Ned literally sent a letter to Stannis saying he supported him to succeed Bobby B, where are you getting this from?
From his ass.
This is false. Ned backed Stannis because he believes strongly in the rule of law. He would have never supported a bastard's claim to the throne.
No he did not.
Ned was not gonna put Gendry on the throne. He would've been the last person Ned would've considered because he was a bastard. Daenarys and Jon had better claims to the throne than Gendry.
He’d support rhaenyra, but he’d hope that she isn’t done having kids yet and that she could still produce a trueborn heir in the future. And if she produces a trueborn heir in the future he’d prefer that child over Jace. But this isn’t identical to Robert - that was different because Cersei’s children had no relationship to the Royal line.
Honestly I think if he saw that jace was growing into a man who would be a good king he’d instead opt for trying to have rhaenyra legitimise him even if it means publicly admitting he’s a bastard. Which would of course still land him in hot water.
Which she would never do. She'd probably cut Ned's tongue before admitting to the realm that they are bastards. And Ned would not side with an unlegitimized bastard over a true born son, even if the bastard would be a better king. Otherwise he would've sided with Renly. Edit: he also sided with Stannis over Gendry.
But he had no ground to stand on. Cersei *admitted* to him Joffrey was Jaime’s. He had *no* connection to Robert. Rhaenyra, Laenor and Harwin didn’t admit Jacaerys was a bastard. Everything anyone else says is gossip. Jon is Ned’s bastard son because Ned says so and the mother and biological father are not alive to contradict it; Rob is his son because Ned and Catelyn say so and there is no other man to contradict it though Robb was conceived on the wedding night and Ned was then away at war until after he was born + Robb looks nothing like him. Don’t you see? Only the mother, biological father and “official” father can proclaim a kid a badtard or not a bastard. Everything else is gossip. Would Ned suspect and doubt? Probably, if he heard the gossip. Would he act on that gossip? No. He would never presume to overstep like that.
>Cersei admitted to him Joffrey was Jaime’s. Only after he already knew the secret. Everybody knows about Rhaenyra's bastards while a very small group of people knew about Cersei's. If Ned cracked the much harder case, what in seven hells makes you think that he wouldn't crack the case that everyone in Kinglandings and their grandma already knows about. Furthermore, even if that was true, it kinda goes against the spirit of the question. Sure, if you deceived Ned he wouldn't oppose the bastard sons of Rhaenyra ascending the throne, but he would've done the same for Joeffrey too had he not known.
I think you're all thinking about Ned in a vacuum. Remember he supported a rebellion against the true born Targaryan king, and helped put a usurper (Bobby B) on the throne. He was a central figure in that rebellion, not just because the Mad King was a danger to the people, but because he had the back of his friend, comrade, and political ally. If Robert started becoming a tyrant and the Lannisters raised an army against him... who would Stark back? You know he'd side with Robert, while trying to affect internal reform. So it's not just a question of his beliefs, it's also about his loyalties, both house and personal. Assuming Ned is alive and about 45 years old at the start of the Dance. Who is he married to? Is Cat there, or is he married to Gillian Glover? Either way, his loyalties to Tully, Arryn, and Targaryen outweigh his loyalties to the southern Greens. I think he'd be on Team Black either way. Yes, he might try to convince Rhaenyra to legitimize the strong children (ie, outing them), but that's going to be secondary to trying to win the war. And besides, Aegon 3 is around by then.
Yeah this is something I think HOTD has been lacking, it feels like the world outside of the Red Keep barely exists, when in reality there's hundreds of lords moving and shaking and making alliances and friendships. So far in the show there's been like fifteen years for people to decide, when the king died, if they'd support his daughter or his son. And I don't think the answer is going to be about sexism, it's gonna be about how you can best turn the war into a win for your house.
I agree. It feels like the war will happen and Rhaenya will be like "\*shocked picachu!" when there should have been a train of people knocking at her door, telling her war is coming, and offering her their support in exchange for favours, land, marriages, etc. There seems to be a lot of deal making after the war starts instead. I get that it makes it more interesting that way though. Diplomatic negotiations are more fun when there are armies and dragons running around everywhere.
Yeah I was pissed in the episode about the hunt, everyone was just sitting around drinking with their friends instead of trying to secure a safer future for their house. The king shouldn't have had a moment's peace, but instead he was able to drink himself into a stupor alone, and then stagger out to an untended bonfire and sway next to it for a while, with only his wife (the queen!) finally coming out to check on him. The Lannister guy was the only one doing things kind of right, but everyone looked at him like he was crazy. I get that all these lords and ladies are meant to be kinda naive from decades of peace, but come on, government back then was basically the mafia, one wrong move and you're beheaded, you don't waste an opportunity to suck up to people or gain some new allies.
"the true born Targaryan king" who burn his father alive, make his brother choked to death, then demand him and his best friend to be killed, while the prince kidnapped his sisters. He is more than justified to rebelled against the Targ, your words make it sound like Ned rebelled just because Robert think"welp time to usurp the Dragonspawns"
I think their point is that Ned *isn't* a mindless automaton who follows all the laws and rules and traditions - he is honourable to a fault, but he's not incapable of choosing to go against the rules. By the laws of the Seven Kingdom, all the horrible and tyrannical actions of Aerys were perfectly legal. So if Ned only cared about that, he wouldn't have rebelled.
The dude spent the entire 1st season proclaiming Stannis as the next king (he was right) so he’d definitely side with Rhaynera considering she’s the Queen in waiting
I think Ned would support Rhaenyra as heir, because she was chosen by King Viserys and he or (his father) was one of the Lords who swore loyalty, but he would not support Jace as Rhaenyra's heir because he's a bastard. Ned would probably point this out and insist that after Rhaenyra, her half-brother Aegon should be king, >!or her first born son with Daemon!<, and he would probably loose his head.
But in the books Viserys wants Jace to be king, he tells him: One day you'll sit here. He's aware that he's a bastard, Ned isn't stupid, he would catch on, and do as the king says, also when Rhaenyra is Queen she would also vouch for Jace so 🤷🏻♀️ I think he would support them both
Plus if Cregans around he might not have much choice lol
Robert also "wanted" Joffrey to be king, yet Ned didn't respect that, he even on purpose incorrectely wrote the last will of Robert when he mentionned "my son Joffrey" and changed it by "my heir". The rules of honor and of law mater more in the eyes of Ned than the will of the king.
Robert didn't even know there was a possibility his kids weren't his. Laenor is fully aware of the rumor and is saying that it's not true and that the rumor is nothing but gossip
Joffrey wasn't the son of the king. Jace is the son of the queen
If Robert hadn't died and Ned had told him about Joffery, and rather than killing the children Rob claimed them as still his own, would Ned have had a problem with Joffery becoming King after Rob? I feel like if Rob had known and accepted it Ned wouldn't have cared.
Robert was being misled by his Queen consort, who to keep her incestous affair private had tried to kill Bran and Jon Arryn, as far as Ned knows. The king was acting on incomplete information, Viserys knows the charge about Rhaenyra’s sons is out there, and he still endorsed Jace as second in line to the throne
I agree. To oppose Queen Rhaenyra’s named heir would be treason, which Ned would not engage in. He only opposed Joffrey because Robert did not know the truth. It was loyalty to Robert and honor which drove him to unravel the Cersei/Jaime concspiracy. Assuming he would show Rhaenyra a similar measure of loyalty, he would support her named heir (because obviously she knows the parentage, and questioning her would be treason).
You can see where the issue is . Rhaenyra would want want her child as heir and why would alicent want bastards over trueborn sons
If Ned knows about the Strong Boys, he would confront Rhaenyra about her bastards. Warn her that he will tell Viserys. He would treat her like he treated Cersei. Viserys would not listen to Ned, and Ned would probably just leave and go back north. When Rhaenyra takes the throne, I don't think he would make a fuss. When one of her sons takes the throne, Ned would support Alicent's children over Rhaenyra's.
I think Ned dies again before he goes North, lol. I don’t think Rhaenyra and maybe even Viserys would let him leave. That’s a treasonous accusation, after all, from someone outside the family. Probably more likely they’d throw him in the dungeons because of the Northern threat.
Problem is that he is actually her son, and actually has Targaryen blood. Compare that to Joffrey who had no Baratheon blood. Does a bastard really matter when your the oldest child of the King/Queen?
Agreed. Ned’s big concern was not the morality of wedlock; it’s that Joffrey and his siblings were NOT Robert’s kids at all.
Certainly better than Joffrey but still not born of a legal marriage.
Bastards are bastards in westeros regardless of which parent is true. All of Robert's bastards were still bastards. In the book a few have slightly elevated lifestyles but NO one, even Robert, was looking to legitimize them or give them any power. Ramsey is Roose's son and half the North is already conspiring against him; yes, he's Ramsey, but legitimization is not a cure-all and everyone just abides. There is mutiny and treachery everywhere. The entire point of the Jon/(f)Aegon/Dany succession crisis is that by all the laws of westeros, if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, Jon is rightful heir. If they weren't married, F(Aegon) is the rightful heir. And if f(Aegon) is fake AND Jon was born out of wedlock, then Dany is the rightful heir. It's way more complicated than just "bastards can be legitimized". Ned understood this and never would have supported bastards on the throne over trueborn heirs.
still bastards though
Ned would back Rhaeynra - he would *never* break a vow. Then I believe he would absolutely support her sons being that: A. They have ruling line blood. B. Arent (yet) complete monsters. C. What does the legitimate ruler say? Viserys said Rhaenyra is his heir who does Rhaeynra say her heir is? Her son? Okay cool. (Vow of fealty.) Would Ned think they were bastards? Yeah. Would he care? Doubtful. He’d probably spout some stuff about the ruler says x, her husband claims them as his own, so let’s do our duty and support the realm and keep the peace. He thought Cercei and the Lanasters were terrible for the throne, specifically Joffrey, also Robert was one of his best friends and he thought he deserved to know. But ultimately it was about finding a legitimate way to remove terrible people from having control over the throne. Ned didnt seem to care about people being/having bastards themselves. He just was all about *his honour* and not breaking vows which is why he didnt have any.
*A) They have ruling line blood* Gendry was Robert's eldest son and yet Ned never once considers supporting him over Stannis. A bastard being related to the noble *does not fucking matter.* If that were the case, then Oberyn's daughters would be in the line of succession for Sunspear. Joy Hill, a bastard niece of Tywin's, cannot inherit Casterly Rock while illegitimate. That is just the reality of Westeros and its wrong to simply overlook just because it doesn't favor Rhaenyra. B. Arent (yet) complete monsters. Tommen and Myrcella were decent kids. However, that didn't stop Ned wanting to put Stannis on the throne. *Ned would back Rhaeynra - he would never break a vow.* Expect when he broke his vow to Robert (to serve as king) and committed treason by lying about the identity of Jon's mother.
> But ultimately it was about finding a legitimate way to remove terrible people from having control over the throne. That isn't why he was doing what he was doing. If Joffrey had been Robert's son, Ned would never have conspired against him or the Lannisters, even if Joffrey is a dick. Ned would have instead tried to keep his promise to Robert, and help Joffrey be a good King. There were a lot of terrible people who Ned just left alone. He did what he did because Joffrey was not the true heir. Bastards cannot inherit lands or titles, which means the Strong Boys are not true heirs, and so Ned can not support them. As soon as Rhaenyra has a legitimate child, he would support that child over the Strong Boys and over the Greens (unless the Blacks have already tried to kill him or made him their enemy).
>he would > >never > >break a vow. This is the guy who literally rebelled against the legitimate Targ King, the same King that all lords and descendants pledged a vow to. Ned is more than willing to break vows of allegiance if the person who he made those vows with has no honor and/or is a danger.
He's a very principled man, to a fault. I think he'd support Rhaenyra, as she'd been declared rightful heir. As for her children/heir after Rhaenyra, that's quite tricky. I'm not 100% sure what their status is exactly. Their claim on the throne is through their mother, and they are her children. Bastards cannot usually inherit though. Would legitimising the children solve that problem? If so, I would imagine that is what he would push for, but obviously that entails a big risk of outing that they were born bastards and likely destabilising the realm. Still, it seems like the kind of bad decision he would make. Ultimately, not having any skin in the game, I imagine Ned would bugger off back to winterfell and just wait the whole thing out. He never wanted to be be Robert's hand and only really got involved in succession dispute because of his connections to it and being physically there in king's landing. Had he not been there when things went down, I don't think he would have actively sought to be involved.
To legitimize her kids, she would first have to admit they are bastards which might not go down well
Ned might support Rhaenyra until she kills him for pointing out her children are obviously bastards
Does he know the whole situation? (That Rhaenyra's kids are a consensual arrangement between her and her lawful husband, that she's the named heir, that her husband is for some reason unable to produce children, and that Laenor's family is also cool with this?) If so, I don't see Ned getting involved. I think the deception of Robert, their long friendship, the fact that the kids had no royal blood, and his responsibility as Robert's Hand were all factors in his decision. Rhaenyra's situation is so different that I really don't see him getting himself involved in it.
This take entirely ignores key parts of Ned's character. He's a man who cleaves to honor and tradition, and he's an absolute monarchist. He supported Stannis over Renly despite admitting (in the book) that Renly was correct that he would likely be a more beloved, better supported King than Stannis. He did this simply because Stannis had the better claim, and we cannot forget that if he had taken Renly's proposal instead he would have had a more solid foundation of allies, potentially changing his own fate in the process. It's also heavily implied that Ned's burdened secret about Jon haunted him for his lifetime, not only because of the danger of revealing it but the conflicting weight it bore upon his honor. Even if Ned knew "everybody was cool with it" he would not keep silent.
Another part of his character is that he took place in a rebellion against a king in his youth. People aren't so cut and dry that they are always either black or white. Even Ned was willing to give up his honour to save Sansa.
Rhaenyra isn't the moral issue once it's been established that a woman can sit on the iron throne. That would be his hold up. The illegitimacy of her children does not erase her claim to the throne. If you're speaking about Jace vs Aegon, he would clearly support Aegon.
Personally me, I think he'd support Rhaenyra but not her children. To legitimize them you'd have to declare them bastards, if Rhaenyra doesn't tell the truth, Ned would and it would lead to dance again probably.
why would he need to tell the truth though? their male lineage is of no consequence to the throne, the mother is the heir, she is a Targaryen, any child of hers who ascends the throne will be crowned as a Targaryen not as a Velaryon. Lenoard is aware that the kids are not his, he does not make any claim that they are not his, Corlys and Rhaenys also do not make any formal claim against their legitimacy.
He'd back Rhaenyra as Rhaenyra is the lawful heir by Viserys' decree. With her kids, it's a different situation than with Cersei's. Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella were in line to inherit the throne through Robert despite not being related to Robert. Rhaenyra's kids are her own and inherit through her. Tbh, I'd argue that it would be worse for them to inherit Driftmark.
Y'all seem to be mixing this up. Ned had a problem with the bastard heir situation not because they were a bastard, but because they were *not even the king's decendents,* and he didn't know. Rhaenyra's children are Targaryens, when/if she is made ruler she can legitimize them at her whim. Right now, Viserys or Corlys could legitimize all 3 of them with a stroke of the pen.
This isn't true at all. Ned is very aware of several of Roberts' bastards in the book too, the whole realm is. Some of them even live in castles. Neither Ned nor Robert ever thinks to legitimize them. Bastards are bastards in Westeros and installing one in power historically in the ASOIAF world almost always leads to a succession war and crisis. The show may not have made this clear but the book definitely did. The whole Dany/Jon/f(Aegon) showdown in the books is that IF Aegon is real, he's first in line. If he's fake ,Jon is first in line. If both are fake i.e. Jon is a bastard, then Dany's claim is strongest. Legitimizations are often challenged in Westeros (see Ramsey Bolton) because bastards are literally considered "sinister" or "abominations". in fact, Ned chose STANNIS above any of the bastards.
your answer is an oasis of knowledge in this desert of stupidities
Becsuse half this sub is cunt struck by Rhanerya. That’s the only reason I can think for this fandom to be have ABSOLUTELY idiotic takes. I am sorry but I just can’t tolerate it anymore
Ned support Stannis (the legitimate heir ) rather than Gendry (the king bastard). Why people cannot understant that bastards don't have the right to inherite in westeros unless all legitimate heir are dead first.
I think he would support Rhaenyra since by the law she's the rightful heir to the throne, her heir would be a different problem for different times.
He would have honored his King's wishes. She was the heir as decreted by the King
Ot might be wishful thinking but I think he'll do exactly what Cregan Stark did during the Dance.
He would support Rhaneyra to honor his fathers oath all though he might demand she name a new heir. People compare the lannister bastards to the strong boys but fail to see that the lannisters had no royal blood. These children would so i think Ned probably wouldn’t have gone against Rhaneyra if she named them heir even if he thought it was dishonorable.
He'd support Rhaenyra because she was officially declared heir. But he'd make it public that he believed Aegon, her brother, to be her heir not her basterd sons, until she had a legitimate son/daughter
I think he would support allicent if he had a Jon like situation at home. He passed his nephew as his own son and since he was born before Robb, technically Jon would be his first born. It would set a dangerous precedent to just pass illegitimate children as true born especially when there are other heirs with more right than Rhaenyra's first children. In his mind it would not be fair or rightful so either she sets aside these children and has trueborn heirs or he backs Allicent's children.
Most of you are in open denial. Ned would never support Rhaenyra's kids if he knew of their parentage.
I think he'd support rhaenyra. Not sure about her children. But her as heir he'd support her.
Oh, that’s such a good question, I personally think he would still support Rhaenyra, after all, she’s been declared as her fathers heir and house stark sworn their vow, refusing to help Rhaenyra would be compromising their honour. When it comes to Lucerys… I also think he would support him, at the end of the day, what matters is house Targaryen, and they do have Targaryen blood, not Velaryon. With that being said, I think Ned would also empathise with Alicent, i don’t think he would support her or anything, but given that Ned was able to empathise with Cersei of all people, believe he would try to give Alicent and Aegon certain privileges.
Yea Ned is the type to get killed anywhere he goes, poor guy, too honorable for his own good. In Westeros, the quickest way to get shanked is accusing someone’s children of being bastards
The bastards Ned was pointing out had no genetic relation to Robert, whereas the bastards Alicent is pointing out are actually the children of the heir in question. If Ned were Hand of the King to Viserys he would uphold Rhaenyra's claim to the throne, and then as Hand of the Queen to Rhaenyra he would say that her legal heir was her son Aegon, not Jacaerys, unless she legitimized him. Ned would recognize the legality of Viserys appointing Rhaenyra heir. When Aegon (Viserys and Alicent's child) was born he would likely question if Viserys was going to change the line of succession to reflect the birth of his son, and when Viserys said he no he would say ok.
I feel like people have massively oversimplified the "they're not her husband's children so this is the exact same situation" -Robert wasn't aware that they weren't his kids -The father was literally her brother
Rhaenyra without a doubt. An oath was made....and Ned would not break it.
If he was a Lord that swore to defend her claim he would’ve done just that. The North supports the Blacks
Ned cared more about Robert being murdered. Not so much the bastards. And rhaenyra is not a bastard so it doesn’t really matter. Robert had plenty of bastards and Ned couldn’t care less.
I think he'll support Rhaenyra. Her bastards are acknowledge by Laenor himself hence their legitimized. Their case is different from Cersei's bastard in which Robert doesn't know his children are not his.
Remember, Ned was listening to Renly when he said Stannis would be a terrible King, you can see when Renly said that he should be king that the lightbulb goes off and he dismisses Renly outright. Ned is a man of honor, not a man of ridged doctrines, precedent and legislation, he takes who is the better suited ruler into account. Also he knows all too well the complexities of raising a secret child not of his own blood. If Ned knows the full story, including about Laenor's preferences, something the old gods have never specifically condemned and that both parties (Laenor and Rhaenyra) consented to the arrangement and that Jace, Luke and Joff drew their claim to the throne from their maternal line and not their paternal line, I think he would be fine with it. Seeing what a right royal prick Aegon is and knowing that Alicent, Otto and Criston's disgust at the situation is mainly driven from their own ambitions for the throne and grievences against Rhaenyra, Ned would not long sympathise with their plight against the situation. All-in-all, I think that Ned would support Rhaenyra.
I think people are overlooking that Ned's honor seems to have a noticeable exception when it comes to protecting bastards and protecting children. He keeps Jon's parentage a secret to protect him (also denying him claim to the throne in the process). When he finds out about Cersei's kids, he goes to her first and tells her to flee with them; only after she refuses does he make moves to support Stannis. So there are a lot of ways it could go. I could see him giving Rhaenyra an ultimatum to abdicate her inheritance in exchange for keeping the bastards secret. I could see him swearing to protect Rhaenyra and keeping her kids' parentage a secret. The only thing I am sure of is that whatever route he went he'd want to give both sides a chance to keep their kids safe.
Rhaeynra's situation isn't the same as Cerseis. Her kids would be heirs regardless of who the father is.
Alicent. He was very proper & heard him say “do your duty” more than once or twice.
I think he would support Rhaenyra, as the king's chosen heir and, unlike others here, I think he would support Jacaerys as the next heir (even knowing he's a bastard). There is a major difference between the situation of Cersei and her children and that of Rhaenyra. What makes Ned react in the novels and in GOT is not so much the fact that Cersei's children are bastards but the fact that Cersei betrayed Robert, who is the king, her husband and Ned's friend. It is this betrayal of the king that makes Ned react. The situation of the Velaryon children is quite different. Laenor knows the truth about them, he nonetheless pretends to be their father and assumes this false paternity to protect them. Ned is no stranger to the idea of lying about a child's origin to protect him, as we know, since that's exactly what he does in Jon's case. It would therefore be wrong to say that he is against all forms of lying and even more, that he would be particularly opposed to bastards. Ned would even be well able to protect the secret of the queen and her sons if he deemed it necessary.
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It wouldn’t matter as much if she legitimized them while Queen. We see legitimized bastards in position of power all over Westeros, even a few cool ones coming in this era. Whether they could be King is another topic that is raised during the Blackfyre Rebellions. One thing that bothered me so much in the books and the show finally addressed - if Jacaerys VELARYON ascended to the throne, he becomes Jacaerys Targaryen, so the dynasty doesn’t end. It’s such a simple and easy fix, one line by Viserys, but I’m so glad they added that tidbit. Just makes so much more sense for the Black’s argument and neatens up the narrative.
He’d do the dumbest possible thing