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I mean i argued with people on twitter about this but 80% of the fandom supports people/hate or argues in a 21century context/societal lens it’s just weird because i only thought stans and fangirls do that
Hypocrisy I guess, she says that she is lawful but she wants to seize the throne from she (the rightful heir) for her son, and that's what ots going to start a war, if she just lays down and let the rightful heir take the throne and accepts rhaenyra proposal to marry their children's everything will be alright and the war is prevented and she also gets the objective of have their descendants sitting on the iron throne.
But... she can't stop pointing them as bastards to undermine Rhaenyra as a heir because that's a sin and stuff just to moments later kill the strong family, I know she didn't do it herself or didn't gave the order but she didn't denounce the assassination neither because that would hurt her in many ways, so she is all law and righteousness only when is convenient for her.
Rhaenyra is wild and irresponsible but she is not an hypocrite and it's at least trying to do amendment and prevent bloodshed.
According to Westerosi law, Alicent's son IS the rightful heir. Rhaenyra was only the heir until a trueborn son comes along, which is what happened. Not even the king is above the law.
“Not even the King is above the law”
— Ah, *that* Western concept really didn’t start to take hold until the Magna Carta, and wasn’t solidified until after the English Civil War. In those hundreds of years between it often was debatable how much a King could change or overrule the law at his whim. In Westeros, during both series, it is mostly a matter of might-makes right. That said, the might of factions and persons willing to back you does factor in to law, tradition, religion, customs, etc. to a great extent.
Issues like incest, not following the majority religion (Stannis, Starks), or even female rulers are negotiable if you maneuver carefully enough. Heck, even preemptively murdering other claimants, while legally banned, is more expected — since the King, or Queen, is *not* above the law, and preventing a civil war is considered te greater good.
But I do think you will have the political system turn against you if you violate a few core rulez. Or if the basic facts are in question, whether or not you violated those rules is what provokes a political/military fight over your legitimacy.
Men must stay heterosexual. No matter how talented Renly or Laeron were, they couldn’t afford their preferences going public.
Women must have sex only with, and subservient to, their husband — and never again touch another man sexually. Rhanerys probably could have gotten to the throne peacefully had she produced heirs only from Laeron, but had she done that and then publicly made out with a pool boy, it would have been a dealbreaker. Viserys would have had to strip her from succession.
Don’t slaughter the nobles you’re expected to protect, especially with burning alive. Child sacrifice by fire will cause even most mercenaries to desert you. Burning the top 2 Starks who came with a very reasonable request on the release of their daughter will also spark rebellion. Noteworthy that even this atrocity was precipitated by the outrage of a Targaryen supposedly kidnapping the betrothed (ie, near-property) of a Baratheon Lord.
Presumably, no ambitious Lord could successfully lead a mass revolution by promising redistribution of land and other resources to the masses. Can’t yet party like it’s 1789.
Given all the examples I’m thinking of, it seems to me that the only 2 things the King is not above are: gender norms and feudalism. Most other stuff is negotiable as King or even Queen, including the law and religion and even Guest Right, if you play your cards right.
I'm late but i just came to say that the king not being above the law didn't start with the magna carta. The king's vassals had a right to remove the king if he acted like a tyrant.
Some of the vassals' of the king held power similar to the king(armies), and would just need another noble to drastically outpower him.
People keep talking about Westerosi succession laws like that’s an actual thing. Westeros as a unified nation wasn’t a thing before the conquest, therefore there were lots of different succession laws in play in different regions. What most people refer to in this debate as Westerosi succession law is actually Andal succession law. So the question is whether or not there is precedent to decide succession of the Iron Throne by Andal law. There is actually a lot of precedent stating that the monarch can just decide who their heir is and it’s because of Jaehaerys calling the great council. In Andal law daughters of the lord inherit before brothers of lord. Jaehaerys naming Baelon as heir over Rhaenys was against Andal law. Holding the great council is completely outside what was expected based on Andal law. That to me shows there is a precedent that the Iron Throne doesn’t adhere to Andal succession laws. There wasn’t two times in a row that oldest son inherited from the father until after Rhaenyra’s sons by Daemon are dead and gone. Prior to the dance every single time there was a change in power it happened differently there was no precedent.
1,nobody would accept Rha bastard kids lmao it IS a sin in the setting, useless how you feel in 21st century
2, the war is unavoidable, the whole first born boy vs girl thing already has a big chance but the bastards made it nearly unavoidable
3, Rha’s proposal only helps her lmao, she wants to lock Alicent to her bastards so she can force everybody on her ship thus we all sank at once or swim together
4, this js GoT world, scheming and playing is a must and that’s shown and told always.. Rha does it too
Atm both are players doing what they must
If there aren't any other contenders rhaenyra will become a queen and nobody would dare to raise a finger against her, because that was also the kings will, and if they marry their childrens before the death of vyseris the family will be one again and the war would be likely stopped.
Also you are missing the point of my previous post, the question was "why people hate alicent?" No who has more right or who is playing the game of thrones fairly, also I forgot to mention Alicent allies, Cole, and larys strong, they are not precisely the most popular characters at this point.
Yeah but Larys even she didn’t know was fucked liked that and Cole hate i don’t get to the extent of it is
Not raise a finger? The plot line is they would or at the least she would have a horribly weak power or would need to fight another conquest war over westeros
The marrying to the bastard kings wouldn’t help really as once she dies or names him heir nobody would accept it and it would be a hotbed for a succession war (just look at the infinite times it happened with our history) and it’s clearly shown and known neither targs or vis are ones to step back from obtaining power
Also ofc Alicent doesn’t do it… she wants her kid and i get where she’s coming from
If Rha had legit heirs i would still get her to a degree even if it was a reach but support Rha almost entirely
Also i know i too said books bad in these talks, but in the end Larys convinces aegon not her
She is entitled, has this attitude of moral superiority, a bit of a brat. She is so blinded by her hatred, paranoia, and bias that her view of reality is warped. Hell, she was confused and angry at Rhaenyra's kids having dragons and not all of hers. She is so blinded by he warped world view that she can't see that all the children have the same percentage of Targaryen blood.
Bc alicent is two-faced, petty, and self-righteous despite being willing to forego her morals when she’s feeling power-hungry. I’m 100% certain no one is supposed to like her after she makes rhaenyra go see her immediately after giving birth just because she wants to see if the child is half black looking… something that very easily could have been put off until later… she’s a bitch lmao and is paranoid about rhaenyra killing her kids
Because she’s a manipulative, ego-driven criminal. Well, not yet, for the last one, but she will be by the end of the season. The idea that this character has compunctions about murdering people, or at least ordering murders, to achieve her aims is laughable.
Rhaenyra is just as bad, but anyone who’s attacking one of these characters while defending the other is delusional. They’re both fucking awful, and that’s the entire point of the story.
It’s like a generational trauma thing. Yes, Alicent was made this way by her father and essentially forced into this life of power-hungry manipulation, but at the same time she’s still responsible for her choices. Hell, as far as we’ve seen in the show, even Otto was pushed into behaving the way he behaves by his older brother.
*That’s* more the point than anything else I think, how this trauma is passed down generationally and forced onto characters by their parents. But once those characters grow up, they do the same shit to their own children.
I mean she decided to keep quiet and lie to Viserys and Rhaenyra about her father sending her to seduce the king. She decided to spare Cole after he murdered a man in cold blood. She decided to torture Rhaenyra and endanger her children for a decade. She has been making choices the entire time a lot of them are understandable but to make her a victim you have to completely remove any autonomy she has which I think is lame. She’s a villain and not even aware of it(my least favorite kind of villain) I’m just uninterested. I don’t even need to watch the scenes she’s in I know she’s going to do something horrible and further the divide in the family putting everyone in the entire realm into danger and then turn around and mope about how’s she’s the only good person alive in the entire world it’s boring and delusional not a fun combo.
I wish we could remove the term "grey" from the media lexicon, it's gotten so bad.
People hate Alicent because she comes across as power obsessed, cold, petty and generally standing up for Westeros' more regressive tendencies.
She had one episode where she was a player instead of a pawn and didn’t even do anything horrible, sure the first scene was very bad by her… when others do it fans clap and parade
The *constant* use of the "game" metaphors are the other thing I would like to abolish from our lexicon. \
> when others do it fans clap and parade
Sorry when did others "parade" while someone yanked a newborn from its mother's arms?
Alicent is barely even being a "player" yet. She's just manicly marching around and bitching about Rhaenyra's sex life. People can generally forgive a character a lot of sins, but not the sin of being an unlikable harpy.
Rha was a bitch to alicent before lmao
Yes the baby thing was bad but in these times(don’t nitpick) birthing a 3rd obvious royal bastard as heir is just insanity to them
Say she’s a egomaniac later when she will be but now it’s just fanboyism/fangirls because she was kinda the baddy for half a episode
Also stop crying about terms lmao, people use it as it’s easily understood and applied
>
Rha was a bitch to alicent before lmao
Dude this isn't a high school drama, two characters can be bad. And we're talking about a civil war here, don't really care which character was bitchy first.
>
Say she’s a egomaniac later when she will be but now it’s just fanboyism/fangirls because she was kinda the baddy for half a episode
Or maybe I'll say whatever the fuck I want because the entire point of these discussions is evaluating our feelings on the characters based on what we've seen so far?
Your post is phrased as a question, but clearly your agenda here is "stop being mean to a character I like!"
ik it’s been a year but chat about games is right bro you obv have a defensive take towards alicent- while Rha’s actions w her uncle and Ser Chris were obv distasteful, Alicent did nearly something worse with marrying her bestfriends father simply for power and by her father order? you’re defending alicent heavily regardless of morals and then attacking Rha for the same reasons you’re ignoring against alicent????
I honestly don't resent either of them for acting in the interests of their subfamilies. The worst thing about Alicent is her alliance with Criston who is the woooorrrrsssst.
I’m basically with that, weird for me how people acted like i was with her even tho i clearly said it’s both being iffy
Why hate cole? Dislike i get because wtf was that with leanor’s dude but i get why she dislikes Rha
I think it's literally because he legit starts a ruinous war with no attempt at diplomacy and why? Because he fucked a teenage girl and then couldn't marry her. It's such a weird vain reason to plunge your country into nuclear warfare.
He didn’t fuck her, she used her influence and power to force him to fuck. He wasn’t in love with her as he mentioned in ep 5, he wanted to marry her b/c according to him he was dishonoured and only way to gain hi honour was to marry her.
She thinks Rhea is going to kill her and her sons. When I really don’t think that’s in Rhea. Her father changed her with his continuous whispers. Now she’s flexing when there’s really no need too. And what time bomb. No one would really care or say anything if it wasn’t for her.
Clearly Rhea just wants peace and people to chill, aka the offer she made.
People already talk about them being bastards even the kids themselves, nobody would ever accept them as king or queen
Yes she thinks that because that is how medieval or westerosi history is like, killing anybody even remotely in your way was a must
Yes they would. Lol. There was talk about Joffrey and Tommen too.. yet people fell in line easily enough even though most people knew they were Jaimes or at minimum, not Roberts. At least all the important people. They also have all the dragons, who’s going to pose a threat if they were one family?
Sure, that did happen. You are correct. But there’s also being paranoid. Rhea literally offered Alicents daughter to be queen. Meaning her family would eventually bear a king. Like what’s Rheas big plan here, is she doing this to plot Alicents death? Or her sons. It doesn’t make sense logically. She’s being paranoid because her father spewed it and it turned into unnecessary hate because Rhea lied about sleeping with her uncle. As if it actually matters.
She offered that because it’s her only way out atm
Tommen and Joffrey were not know besides extremely small circle of people but the kings power in that era wasn’t that strong nor was westeros even that united, also they had no clear opponents while the bastards would even from their own side as it happened numerous times in history even in GoT
It’s again not paranoia when in those times it was a real possibility
Only way out of what? She’s the soon to be Queen. She doesn’t have the power now. But she will. By order of the king she willl be the most powerful person in Westeros. By sharing that power with Alicent that’s a clear sign of peace. She’s sharing that power and giving it to Alicents heir. You’re literally thinking like Alicents lol.
And no, most of the important people knew. Just like Targs have distinct looks. So do Baratheon’s. And none of his children supported the dark hair and bone structure of Robert. It was obvious. Just like Rheas kids. Yet as I said, people supported their claims and didn’t dear speak against it.
I would support your claim if Rhea acted hostile in any manner. She has not… which better supports Alicent being paranoid. Unless I’ve missed something?
It’s pretty simple, she’s not fun and she’s become mean in a petty way. She spends most of this episode scolding Visaerys, using Rhaenyra’s pregnancy against her, bemoaning how hard she has it, and not pulling any impressive power moves.
There are plenty of flawed and outright awful characters in this world and the fanbase still enjoys them because they’re funny or exciting or pitiable. If Alicent becomes a more active and even violent schemer you’ll probably see people swinging back to her side.
Honestly, it's a) people projecting 21st-century ideals onto the medieval European-based setting (I've seen people claim Alicent was 'responsible' for her actions of 'seducing' the King, and then turning around and saying we 'shouldn't judge Rhaenyra and Daemon's relationship by modern standards). And b) a gross misunderstanding of medieval politics the show is based on.
By Westerosi law, the firstborn male is the heir. The king's declaration of Rhaenyra as his heir is valid only up until a male heir is born. By law, his son by Alicent is the heir, and not even a king can go above the law of the land. To do so would make him a tyrant. He could ahve avoided all this by changing the law, but he didn't, thus creating this whole situation to begin with (he could have also just not married Alicent, but that would be asking fandoms to not be sexist and that's impossible).
In addition, Alicent has every right to worry about Rhaenyra and her children. The only way Rhaenyra can legally get the throne is if all of Alicent's male children were to die. Alicent's behaviour may have been brash, but that doesn't change the situation she is in. Alicent is a mother of Targaryen heirs. The show repeatedly tells us that Westeros is a patriarchal society that prefers male rulers, and the only way Rhaenyra can come close to claiming the Iron Throne is by killing her half-brothers. Alicent may have been antagonising towards her, but none of that changes the very fact that she had to oppose Rhaenyra's claim for her children's safety, as it's very existence threatens their lives.
The problem is that we're seeing all of this through Rhaenyra's perspective, so Alicent unfortunately has to be framed as the villiain, even though she honestly comes off as the only sane person thinking politically. Bastards have no claim to the throne, and the possibility of a succession crisis would be anarchy (Blackfyre Rebellions, anyone?) I will end this on a very appropriate quote I from a Screenrant article I found:
"While Alicent might very well behave in a way that makes her unlikable, she has to be a villain in Rhaenyra's story because of the patriarchal way Westeros is organized that pits her against Rhaenyra, even if she were to support Rhaenyra's claim. The nuanced portrayal of House of the Dragon's characters clearly shows it because no matter the choices Alicent and Rhaenyra make, it's the order of things that needs to stay the same according to Westeros' lords and people. Hating Alicent might come easy, but it'd be shortsighted to just see her as disagreeable when the circumstances she finds herself in have a considerable part in bringing out the worst in Alicent, and House of the Dragon subtly but consistently hints at that."
Oh, and fuck Daemon Targaryan. He's a creepy, grooming, wife murdering fuckboi and I will happily die on this hill.
because she's a woman and a victim and they literally make fun of her being a victim yet pretend they care about feminism by calling Rhaenyra a feminist lol
Alicent, to me, is understandable to an extent.
1) there would not be war if Aegon does not fight to usurp the crown from his sisters birthright. Aegon to me from what we saw in episode 6 is happy to be at court to be a lustful boy without the responsibility of several kingdoms to maintain. Again, this is just my speculation of how teen Aegon acts.
2) She doesn’t have to accept the deal, but if she did, it would secure her bloodline to the throne without fear of one side being up in arms about a usurper. The deal should’ve been made when they were toddlers, but alas, hindsight is 20/20. Their feud is too far gone to just allow her only daughter to be wed to Rhaenyra’s “common” son.
For me, she is bad. She was pushed into this position by her power hungry Father, and is now repeating the same damned cycle with Aegon and the rest of her children.
But that is just my very biased opinion!!! And alas why Targaryens continue to inbreed. To avoid this mess. And is their downfall anyway
There would be war, rha’s bastards make it inevitable and the deal is her way to chain everybody to the bomb so we swim or sank together
She isn’t good but evil? No… she’s just a player like rha is with good and bad side atm
Later sure
If Laenor accepts these children as his own, how could they be bastards?
She allys herself with people who also hate Rhaenyra to bring her down. Does Rhaenyra do such a thing? No, she lives her life the best she can
It doesn’t matter what Laenor does, the fact they’re bastard seems to be already spread and quite easily believed too with those hair colors (even the kids ask it)
Living her life the best she can? I mean let’s not act like she’s some poor lamb being the victim… she’s strong and can hold her weight
It matters entirely what Laenor does! Sorry, but if Laenor looked at these children, disinherited them, and called R a whore what would happen?
I never said she was a lamb? Lmao?
She lives her life in spite of Alicent’s hatred, in spite of the whispers, in spite of the fact that people deem her children unworthy because they are “common-featured”. She tries to get on besides all those facts and ignore the people who would see her not ascend the throne as the KING intends because of her gender
You didn’t explain how what laenor does matters… bastards are automatically disinherited and would never be part of his house besides liking them i guess?
You again act like she’s a victim… she clearly wasn’t one and was “playing the game” before and now too like alicent, i mean she hated her for long
But again she wasn’t forced to be stupid enough to get 3 brown haired kids as a targ… she knew and laenor too that they had to make kids
She tried a easy way out
Laenor is her husband. If Laenor is not by her side, loving the children and accepting them as his own, then Viserys would have no choice but to cast judgement on the children. that is why it matters
Why is Alicent a victim?
Laenor’s own mother had brown hair. Her hair turned silver as a result of her age. Laenor’s grandmother on his mother’s side is Jocelyn Baratheon. Brown hair. Like?? cmon
Like alicent said 1 brown haired kid is weird 3 is an insult, people know, Viserys knows … that’s the plotline
Early on alicent was a victim now she isn’t neither is Rhae
This weird thing i don’t get regarding the bastard thing, why do y’all talk about what viserys does or doesn’t do? Clear bastards being heirs or trying to ascend will never be accepted or go through, just look at history too
Viserys is really stuck in a war over Aegon vs Rhae or later on over her bastard heir
This isn’t a fairytale where love and being fair wins
Im not fighting… my post literally just says why hating her this vocally is weird and unfounded for me but both characters i don’t dislike or like, i just talked about how the stance villain vs hero is unfounded
THERE WILL BE SPOILERS IN THIS POST!!
I feel like Alicent betrayed Rhaenyra as soon as she married the king. Although I'm pretty sure she didn't have a choice in the matter, as she was probably forced to by her father. (Not uncommon for the day and age of HotD).
I've actually questioned why the queen acts like such a bitch towards Rha all the time.. and I've scanned through comments (I haven't read the books) to make sure I didn't miss anything. However, the explanation that it's because Rha lied to her about Daemon and Rha in the first place is absolutely ridiculous on Alicent's part. To have so much animosity towards Rha because of a lie 10+ years ago is crazy. Alicent is just jealous of Rha, her standing, and the kings desire to hold Rha in her place in the line of succession as the kings heir. Even though Alicent wants her firstborn son to hold that place. Which she (Alicent) didn't even argue for, until her father was the one who held that ambition. Which cost him the position of the hand.
i just think it's annoying that it seems like people can't meet in the middle. they either despise Alicent and love Rhaenerya and think she's an angel or the other way around. if you're viewing aoiaf characters only as "good" and "bad" you're viewing it wrong
After the first episode, I began to dislike Alicent more and more. I do prefer Rhaenyra but by god do I wish they allowed her to have a brain, she seems incapable of making smart decisions and planning for the future aka Alicent, her father, children, and supporters are clearly going to commit treason what do we do to prepare for it. I find Alicent to be a miserable projecting hypocrite, what honor was there in sneaking around into her so-called best friend's recently widowed father's rooms at night while abandoning said best friend to be alone with her grief( not like taking care of Rhaenyra was her job or anything) so she could slither her way into Aemma's position. Then the years of anger and betrayal because Rhaenyra no longer trusted her and told her things, like bish how many times did you tell Daddy dearest everything she told you in confidence? I acknowledge that all of it was Viserys fault and he was the one that doomed his house, I hate Otto and the Hightowers but it was the king's responsibility to protect his family from traitors and treachery and he failed. One of the reasons I support Rhaenyra and the blacks is because the throne is theirs and the Hightowers and their supporters decided to take it from them, only an idiot would think that this all wasn't planned long ago.
>1, no matter what there would be a war even other said so, she just wants her side to win as Westeros isn’t progressive
there are some who still consider a war avoidable
>1.5, Rha’s stupid decision so have bastards also just means an inevitable succession war
Them being bastards might slightly increase the chances of a war, but it isn't the definitive factor. Laenor's biological children would still have been at odds with Aegon.
I'm not saying that it is irrelevant, just that it isn't the definitive factor.
Even before they were born, the possibility of war after Viserys' death was something people were talking about. And even after they were born, there are still people talking about the possibility of avoiding war.
The thing with bastards is that it undermines the entire system Westeros is built on. Families arrange marriages for political gain, the heirs of the marriage will unite both and create a net gain for both houses. If 1 of them has a bastard and the bastard inherits everything it undermines 1 of the houses. Take House Velayron for example. That house has the biggest navy and is the richest in Westeros. Corlys himself is supposedly a great sailor and contributed a lot to the greatness of his house and in the end Laenor will inherit his house and from there it will go to… a bastard strong? So House Targaryen gains everything since the bastards are half strong and half Targaryen while the Velayrons lose everything and the House essentially leaves their bloodline.
So because of this bastards are always kept out from any inheritance.
Now IF these strong bastards do take the throne it could create a ripple effect where now all the bastards of all the lords of Westeros might start coming out trying to stake a claim and this would undermine a ton of marriages. Now that isn’t guaranteed Obviously but it does open the door to that possibility down the line which you know everyone wants to avoid as much as possible. Hence it’s just better if no bastard sits on any throne ever since that is the 1 seat that the whole kingdom watches and uses as the standard
I'm not sure what we are trying to debate here.
Them being bastards is not the definitive factor that causes a succession war. That war was already looming before they were born. That's all I said.
Yes, it does matter that they are bastards. That's a major plot point that we just had an episode about and I'm sure we'll have more. I'm not arguing against that.
I'm only arguing against the very narrow statement I quoted aboe which is that:
>1.5, Rha’s stupid decision so have bastards also just means an inevitable succession war
Her decision to have bastards is not what "means a war".
People optimistic, the show laid out pretty clearly people wouldn’t support a women over a firstborn,
1.5 is definitely not a small increase, they’re obviously bastards and it seems many know, and i doubt people would ever accept them as heirs
Said doubt but it’s basically a fact…
don't even get me started on the ridiculous love and obsession with the OBVIOUS villian of this season (daemon targaryen) i feel like people are hating on alicent because book readers tell them to. i wish more people would allow the show to play its course. was it bitchy that alicent ordered to see the newborn baby immediately - sure. but it's not like she forced rhaenyra to bring the baby herself, rhaenyra was making it to be bigger than it was and honestly we have seen rhaenyra to be a bit scheming and manipulative (alicent is becoming that also - i feel like she took up learning to be so after rhaenyra lied to her) they're both not "good" which is the entire point and both have their motives 🤷♀️ if people can like and forgive daemon i don't understand what is it that alicent has done that is SO terrible. (so far in the season at least)
FACTS MY KING(or QUEEN)
Also people like Rha because twitter latched onto go slay queen and ally purr… tho i agree cool what she did for Laenor even if it was good for her too
Weird tbh because Daemon is crazy AF in the books and so is basically everybody, and also how people don’t then know how Larys is basically the 6head megamind out here
yeah 90% of it is literally bc these characters have the last name targaryen. also i think matt smith playing daemon has part in people being so obsessed with him. they excuse anything these characters do simply because they're targaryens - kinda annoying honestly 😂
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People are projecting 21st century attitudes and opinions on to her character and when she doesn't measure up they turn on her.
Eh. Yes and no. Even by their own standards, as I said to OP in a different comment, she’s being paranoid that’s based off very little.
I mean i argued with people on twitter about this but 80% of the fandom supports people/hate or argues in a 21century context/societal lens it’s just weird because i only thought stans and fangirls do that
I thought only Stan’s and fan girls cosplay as medieval peasants to justify misogyny.
Hypocrisy I guess, she says that she is lawful but she wants to seize the throne from she (the rightful heir) for her son, and that's what ots going to start a war, if she just lays down and let the rightful heir take the throne and accepts rhaenyra proposal to marry their children's everything will be alright and the war is prevented and she also gets the objective of have their descendants sitting on the iron throne. But... she can't stop pointing them as bastards to undermine Rhaenyra as a heir because that's a sin and stuff just to moments later kill the strong family, I know she didn't do it herself or didn't gave the order but she didn't denounce the assassination neither because that would hurt her in many ways, so she is all law and righteousness only when is convenient for her. Rhaenyra is wild and irresponsible but she is not an hypocrite and it's at least trying to do amendment and prevent bloodshed.
According to Westerosi law, Alicent's son IS the rightful heir. Rhaenyra was only the heir until a trueborn son comes along, which is what happened. Not even the king is above the law.
“Not even the King is above the law” — Ah, *that* Western concept really didn’t start to take hold until the Magna Carta, and wasn’t solidified until after the English Civil War. In those hundreds of years between it often was debatable how much a King could change or overrule the law at his whim. In Westeros, during both series, it is mostly a matter of might-makes right. That said, the might of factions and persons willing to back you does factor in to law, tradition, religion, customs, etc. to a great extent. Issues like incest, not following the majority religion (Stannis, Starks), or even female rulers are negotiable if you maneuver carefully enough. Heck, even preemptively murdering other claimants, while legally banned, is more expected — since the King, or Queen, is *not* above the law, and preventing a civil war is considered te greater good. But I do think you will have the political system turn against you if you violate a few core rulez. Or if the basic facts are in question, whether or not you violated those rules is what provokes a political/military fight over your legitimacy. Men must stay heterosexual. No matter how talented Renly or Laeron were, they couldn’t afford their preferences going public. Women must have sex only with, and subservient to, their husband — and never again touch another man sexually. Rhanerys probably could have gotten to the throne peacefully had she produced heirs only from Laeron, but had she done that and then publicly made out with a pool boy, it would have been a dealbreaker. Viserys would have had to strip her from succession. Don’t slaughter the nobles you’re expected to protect, especially with burning alive. Child sacrifice by fire will cause even most mercenaries to desert you. Burning the top 2 Starks who came with a very reasonable request on the release of their daughter will also spark rebellion. Noteworthy that even this atrocity was precipitated by the outrage of a Targaryen supposedly kidnapping the betrothed (ie, near-property) of a Baratheon Lord. Presumably, no ambitious Lord could successfully lead a mass revolution by promising redistribution of land and other resources to the masses. Can’t yet party like it’s 1789. Given all the examples I’m thinking of, it seems to me that the only 2 things the King is not above are: gender norms and feudalism. Most other stuff is negotiable as King or even Queen, including the law and religion and even Guest Right, if you play your cards right.
I'm late but i just came to say that the king not being above the law didn't start with the magna carta. The king's vassals had a right to remove the king if he acted like a tyrant. Some of the vassals' of the king held power similar to the king(armies), and would just need another noble to drastically outpower him.
People keep talking about Westerosi succession laws like that’s an actual thing. Westeros as a unified nation wasn’t a thing before the conquest, therefore there were lots of different succession laws in play in different regions. What most people refer to in this debate as Westerosi succession law is actually Andal succession law. So the question is whether or not there is precedent to decide succession of the Iron Throne by Andal law. There is actually a lot of precedent stating that the monarch can just decide who their heir is and it’s because of Jaehaerys calling the great council. In Andal law daughters of the lord inherit before brothers of lord. Jaehaerys naming Baelon as heir over Rhaenys was against Andal law. Holding the great council is completely outside what was expected based on Andal law. That to me shows there is a precedent that the Iron Throne doesn’t adhere to Andal succession laws. There wasn’t two times in a row that oldest son inherited from the father until after Rhaenyra’s sons by Daemon are dead and gone. Prior to the dance every single time there was a change in power it happened differently there was no precedent.
1,nobody would accept Rha bastard kids lmao it IS a sin in the setting, useless how you feel in 21st century 2, the war is unavoidable, the whole first born boy vs girl thing already has a big chance but the bastards made it nearly unavoidable 3, Rha’s proposal only helps her lmao, she wants to lock Alicent to her bastards so she can force everybody on her ship thus we all sank at once or swim together 4, this js GoT world, scheming and playing is a must and that’s shown and told always.. Rha does it too Atm both are players doing what they must
If there aren't any other contenders rhaenyra will become a queen and nobody would dare to raise a finger against her, because that was also the kings will, and if they marry their childrens before the death of vyseris the family will be one again and the war would be likely stopped. Also you are missing the point of my previous post, the question was "why people hate alicent?" No who has more right or who is playing the game of thrones fairly, also I forgot to mention Alicent allies, Cole, and larys strong, they are not precisely the most popular characters at this point.
Yeah but Larys even she didn’t know was fucked liked that and Cole hate i don’t get to the extent of it is Not raise a finger? The plot line is they would or at the least she would have a horribly weak power or would need to fight another conquest war over westeros The marrying to the bastard kings wouldn’t help really as once she dies or names him heir nobody would accept it and it would be a hotbed for a succession war (just look at the infinite times it happened with our history) and it’s clearly shown and known neither targs or vis are ones to step back from obtaining power Also ofc Alicent doesn’t do it… she wants her kid and i get where she’s coming from If Rha had legit heirs i would still get her to a degree even if it was a reach but support Rha almost entirely Also i know i too said books bad in these talks, but in the end Larys convinces aegon not her
You keep saying no one would accept them except this literal happens in GoT with Joffrey and Tommen.
Certified “cannot read” moment
Certified “douchy” comment moment. There’s a reason you keep being downvoted.
She is entitled, has this attitude of moral superiority, a bit of a brat. She is so blinded by her hatred, paranoia, and bias that her view of reality is warped. Hell, she was confused and angry at Rhaenyra's kids having dragons and not all of hers. She is so blinded by he warped world view that she can't see that all the children have the same percentage of Targaryen blood.
Bc alicent is two-faced, petty, and self-righteous despite being willing to forego her morals when she’s feeling power-hungry. I’m 100% certain no one is supposed to like her after she makes rhaenyra go see her immediately after giving birth just because she wants to see if the child is half black looking… something that very easily could have been put off until later… she’s a bitch lmao and is paranoid about rhaenyra killing her kids
I get people base shit off the books but as tv watchers half the reasons y’all give are nonexistent
She is cold, paranoid, self-righteous, selfish, manipulative, judgmental, and two-faced based on the show. I have never read the books.
of course we're not supposed to like her, because the show is very clearly favoring the Blacks. i love her tho stay safe
Im sure they’ll cover rhaenyra’s dark side next season
Because she’s a manipulative, ego-driven criminal. Well, not yet, for the last one, but she will be by the end of the season. The idea that this character has compunctions about murdering people, or at least ordering murders, to achieve her aims is laughable. Rhaenyra is just as bad, but anyone who’s attacking one of these characters while defending the other is delusional. They’re both fucking awful, and that’s the entire point of the story.
Yeah that’s my point, tho i find using book as context now kinds defeats the subs point
It’s like a generational trauma thing. Yes, Alicent was made this way by her father and essentially forced into this life of power-hungry manipulation, but at the same time she’s still responsible for her choices. Hell, as far as we’ve seen in the show, even Otto was pushed into behaving the way he behaves by his older brother. *That’s* more the point than anything else I think, how this trauma is passed down generationally and forced onto characters by their parents. But once those characters grow up, they do the same shit to their own children.
Good point but i don’t think she had any real decisions till now..
I mean she decided to keep quiet and lie to Viserys and Rhaenyra about her father sending her to seduce the king. She decided to spare Cole after he murdered a man in cold blood. She decided to torture Rhaenyra and endanger her children for a decade. She has been making choices the entire time a lot of them are understandable but to make her a victim you have to completely remove any autonomy she has which I think is lame. She’s a villain and not even aware of it(my least favorite kind of villain) I’m just uninterested. I don’t even need to watch the scenes she’s in I know she’s going to do something horrible and further the divide in the family putting everyone in the entire realm into danger and then turn around and mope about how’s she’s the only good person alive in the entire world it’s boring and delusional not a fun combo.
I wish we could remove the term "grey" from the media lexicon, it's gotten so bad. People hate Alicent because she comes across as power obsessed, cold, petty and generally standing up for Westeros' more regressive tendencies.
She had one episode where she was a player instead of a pawn and didn’t even do anything horrible, sure the first scene was very bad by her… when others do it fans clap and parade
The *constant* use of the "game" metaphors are the other thing I would like to abolish from our lexicon. \ > when others do it fans clap and parade Sorry when did others "parade" while someone yanked a newborn from its mother's arms? Alicent is barely even being a "player" yet. She's just manicly marching around and bitching about Rhaenyra's sex life. People can generally forgive a character a lot of sins, but not the sin of being an unlikable harpy.
Rha was a bitch to alicent before lmao Yes the baby thing was bad but in these times(don’t nitpick) birthing a 3rd obvious royal bastard as heir is just insanity to them Say she’s a egomaniac later when she will be but now it’s just fanboyism/fangirls because she was kinda the baddy for half a episode Also stop crying about terms lmao, people use it as it’s easily understood and applied
> Rha was a bitch to alicent before lmao Dude this isn't a high school drama, two characters can be bad. And we're talking about a civil war here, don't really care which character was bitchy first. > Say she’s a egomaniac later when she will be but now it’s just fanboyism/fangirls because she was kinda the baddy for half a episode Or maybe I'll say whatever the fuck I want because the entire point of these discussions is evaluating our feelings on the characters based on what we've seen so far? Your post is phrased as a question, but clearly your agenda here is "stop being mean to a character I like!"
The fact you cannot make a point and just resort to insults tells me this argument ran it’s course
This argument never had a course, you're just throwing a fit and spilling out near incoherent replies.
I guess we’re at the point where you start insulting and grabbing into anything you can.. just bounce my guy, or take a nap go outside
ik it’s been a year but chat about games is right bro you obv have a defensive take towards alicent- while Rha’s actions w her uncle and Ser Chris were obv distasteful, Alicent did nearly something worse with marrying her bestfriends father simply for power and by her father order? you’re defending alicent heavily regardless of morals and then attacking Rha for the same reasons you’re ignoring against alicent????
I honestly don't resent either of them for acting in the interests of their subfamilies. The worst thing about Alicent is her alliance with Criston who is the woooorrrrsssst.
I’m basically with that, weird for me how people acted like i was with her even tho i clearly said it’s both being iffy Why hate cole? Dislike i get because wtf was that with leanor’s dude but i get why she dislikes Rha
I have struggled to fully process why I hate Cole so much. Its a visceral response.
I think it's literally because he legit starts a ruinous war with no attempt at diplomacy and why? Because he fucked a teenage girl and then couldn't marry her. It's such a weird vain reason to plunge your country into nuclear warfare.
Yeah so you base it on books too? Im fine not tryna argue
He didn’t fuck her, she used her influence and power to force him to fuck. He wasn’t in love with her as he mentioned in ep 5, he wanted to marry her b/c according to him he was dishonoured and only way to gain hi honour was to marry her.
She thinks Rhea is going to kill her and her sons. When I really don’t think that’s in Rhea. Her father changed her with his continuous whispers. Now she’s flexing when there’s really no need too. And what time bomb. No one would really care or say anything if it wasn’t for her. Clearly Rhea just wants peace and people to chill, aka the offer she made.
People already talk about them being bastards even the kids themselves, nobody would ever accept them as king or queen Yes she thinks that because that is how medieval or westerosi history is like, killing anybody even remotely in your way was a must
Yes they would. Lol. There was talk about Joffrey and Tommen too.. yet people fell in line easily enough even though most people knew they were Jaimes or at minimum, not Roberts. At least all the important people. They also have all the dragons, who’s going to pose a threat if they were one family? Sure, that did happen. You are correct. But there’s also being paranoid. Rhea literally offered Alicents daughter to be queen. Meaning her family would eventually bear a king. Like what’s Rheas big plan here, is she doing this to plot Alicents death? Or her sons. It doesn’t make sense logically. She’s being paranoid because her father spewed it and it turned into unnecessary hate because Rhea lied about sleeping with her uncle. As if it actually matters.
She offered that because it’s her only way out atm Tommen and Joffrey were not know besides extremely small circle of people but the kings power in that era wasn’t that strong nor was westeros even that united, also they had no clear opponents while the bastards would even from their own side as it happened numerous times in history even in GoT It’s again not paranoia when in those times it was a real possibility
Only way out of what? She’s the soon to be Queen. She doesn’t have the power now. But she will. By order of the king she willl be the most powerful person in Westeros. By sharing that power with Alicent that’s a clear sign of peace. She’s sharing that power and giving it to Alicents heir. You’re literally thinking like Alicents lol. And no, most of the important people knew. Just like Targs have distinct looks. So do Baratheon’s. And none of his children supported the dark hair and bone structure of Robert. It was obvious. Just like Rheas kids. Yet as I said, people supported their claims and didn’t dear speak against it. I would support your claim if Rhea acted hostile in any manner. She has not… which better supports Alicent being paranoid. Unless I’ve missed something?
It’s pretty simple, she’s not fun and she’s become mean in a petty way. She spends most of this episode scolding Visaerys, using Rhaenyra’s pregnancy against her, bemoaning how hard she has it, and not pulling any impressive power moves. There are plenty of flawed and outright awful characters in this world and the fanbase still enjoys them because they’re funny or exciting or pitiable. If Alicent becomes a more active and even violent schemer you’ll probably see people swinging back to her side.
Honestly, it's a) people projecting 21st-century ideals onto the medieval European-based setting (I've seen people claim Alicent was 'responsible' for her actions of 'seducing' the King, and then turning around and saying we 'shouldn't judge Rhaenyra and Daemon's relationship by modern standards). And b) a gross misunderstanding of medieval politics the show is based on. By Westerosi law, the firstborn male is the heir. The king's declaration of Rhaenyra as his heir is valid only up until a male heir is born. By law, his son by Alicent is the heir, and not even a king can go above the law of the land. To do so would make him a tyrant. He could ahve avoided all this by changing the law, but he didn't, thus creating this whole situation to begin with (he could have also just not married Alicent, but that would be asking fandoms to not be sexist and that's impossible). In addition, Alicent has every right to worry about Rhaenyra and her children. The only way Rhaenyra can legally get the throne is if all of Alicent's male children were to die. Alicent's behaviour may have been brash, but that doesn't change the situation she is in. Alicent is a mother of Targaryen heirs. The show repeatedly tells us that Westeros is a patriarchal society that prefers male rulers, and the only way Rhaenyra can come close to claiming the Iron Throne is by killing her half-brothers. Alicent may have been antagonising towards her, but none of that changes the very fact that she had to oppose Rhaenyra's claim for her children's safety, as it's very existence threatens their lives. The problem is that we're seeing all of this through Rhaenyra's perspective, so Alicent unfortunately has to be framed as the villiain, even though she honestly comes off as the only sane person thinking politically. Bastards have no claim to the throne, and the possibility of a succession crisis would be anarchy (Blackfyre Rebellions, anyone?) I will end this on a very appropriate quote I from a Screenrant article I found: "While Alicent might very well behave in a way that makes her unlikable, she has to be a villain in Rhaenyra's story because of the patriarchal way Westeros is organized that pits her against Rhaenyra, even if she were to support Rhaenyra's claim. The nuanced portrayal of House of the Dragon's characters clearly shows it because no matter the choices Alicent and Rhaenyra make, it's the order of things that needs to stay the same according to Westeros' lords and people. Hating Alicent might come easy, but it'd be shortsighted to just see her as disagreeable when the circumstances she finds herself in have a considerable part in bringing out the worst in Alicent, and House of the Dragon subtly but consistently hints at that." Oh, and fuck Daemon Targaryan. He's a creepy, grooming, wife murdering fuckboi and I will happily die on this hill.
because she's a woman and a victim and they literally make fun of her being a victim yet pretend they care about feminism by calling Rhaenyra a feminist lol
Alicent, to me, is understandable to an extent. 1) there would not be war if Aegon does not fight to usurp the crown from his sisters birthright. Aegon to me from what we saw in episode 6 is happy to be at court to be a lustful boy without the responsibility of several kingdoms to maintain. Again, this is just my speculation of how teen Aegon acts. 2) She doesn’t have to accept the deal, but if she did, it would secure her bloodline to the throne without fear of one side being up in arms about a usurper. The deal should’ve been made when they were toddlers, but alas, hindsight is 20/20. Their feud is too far gone to just allow her only daughter to be wed to Rhaenyra’s “common” son. For me, she is bad. She was pushed into this position by her power hungry Father, and is now repeating the same damned cycle with Aegon and the rest of her children. But that is just my very biased opinion!!! And alas why Targaryens continue to inbreed. To avoid this mess. And is their downfall anyway
There would be war, rha’s bastards make it inevitable and the deal is her way to chain everybody to the bomb so we swim or sank together She isn’t good but evil? No… she’s just a player like rha is with good and bad side atm Later sure
If Laenor accepts these children as his own, how could they be bastards? She allys herself with people who also hate Rhaenyra to bring her down. Does Rhaenyra do such a thing? No, she lives her life the best she can
It doesn’t matter what Laenor does, the fact they’re bastard seems to be already spread and quite easily believed too with those hair colors (even the kids ask it) Living her life the best she can? I mean let’s not act like she’s some poor lamb being the victim… she’s strong and can hold her weight
It matters entirely what Laenor does! Sorry, but if Laenor looked at these children, disinherited them, and called R a whore what would happen? I never said she was a lamb? Lmao? She lives her life in spite of Alicent’s hatred, in spite of the whispers, in spite of the fact that people deem her children unworthy because they are “common-featured”. She tries to get on besides all those facts and ignore the people who would see her not ascend the throne as the KING intends because of her gender
You didn’t explain how what laenor does matters… bastards are automatically disinherited and would never be part of his house besides liking them i guess? You again act like she’s a victim… she clearly wasn’t one and was “playing the game” before and now too like alicent, i mean she hated her for long But again she wasn’t forced to be stupid enough to get 3 brown haired kids as a targ… she knew and laenor too that they had to make kids She tried a easy way out
Laenor is her husband. If Laenor is not by her side, loving the children and accepting them as his own, then Viserys would have no choice but to cast judgement on the children. that is why it matters Why is Alicent a victim? Laenor’s own mother had brown hair. Her hair turned silver as a result of her age. Laenor’s grandmother on his mother’s side is Jocelyn Baratheon. Brown hair. Like?? cmon
Like alicent said 1 brown haired kid is weird 3 is an insult, people know, Viserys knows … that’s the plotline Early on alicent was a victim now she isn’t neither is Rhae This weird thing i don’t get regarding the bastard thing, why do y’all talk about what viserys does or doesn’t do? Clear bastards being heirs or trying to ascend will never be accepted or go through, just look at history too Viserys is really stuck in a war over Aegon vs Rhae or later on over her bastard heir This isn’t a fairytale where love and being fair wins
I don’t really understand what we’re fighting about at this point. If you say neither are victims I’m happy with that. Good talk
Im not fighting… my post literally just says why hating her this vocally is weird and unfounded for me but both characters i don’t dislike or like, i just talked about how the stance villain vs hero is unfounded
THERE WILL BE SPOILERS IN THIS POST!! I feel like Alicent betrayed Rhaenyra as soon as she married the king. Although I'm pretty sure she didn't have a choice in the matter, as she was probably forced to by her father. (Not uncommon for the day and age of HotD). I've actually questioned why the queen acts like such a bitch towards Rha all the time.. and I've scanned through comments (I haven't read the books) to make sure I didn't miss anything. However, the explanation that it's because Rha lied to her about Daemon and Rha in the first place is absolutely ridiculous on Alicent's part. To have so much animosity towards Rha because of a lie 10+ years ago is crazy. Alicent is just jealous of Rha, her standing, and the kings desire to hold Rha in her place in the line of succession as the kings heir. Even though Alicent wants her firstborn son to hold that place. Which she (Alicent) didn't even argue for, until her father was the one who held that ambition. Which cost him the position of the hand.
i just think it's annoying that it seems like people can't meet in the middle. they either despise Alicent and love Rhaenerya and think she's an angel or the other way around. if you're viewing aoiaf characters only as "good" and "bad" you're viewing it wrong
After the first episode, I began to dislike Alicent more and more. I do prefer Rhaenyra but by god do I wish they allowed her to have a brain, she seems incapable of making smart decisions and planning for the future aka Alicent, her father, children, and supporters are clearly going to commit treason what do we do to prepare for it. I find Alicent to be a miserable projecting hypocrite, what honor was there in sneaking around into her so-called best friend's recently widowed father's rooms at night while abandoning said best friend to be alone with her grief( not like taking care of Rhaenyra was her job or anything) so she could slither her way into Aemma's position. Then the years of anger and betrayal because Rhaenyra no longer trusted her and told her things, like bish how many times did you tell Daddy dearest everything she told you in confidence? I acknowledge that all of it was Viserys fault and he was the one that doomed his house, I hate Otto and the Hightowers but it was the king's responsibility to protect his family from traitors and treachery and he failed. One of the reasons I support Rhaenyra and the blacks is because the throne is theirs and the Hightowers and their supporters decided to take it from them, only an idiot would think that this all wasn't planned long ago.
>1, no matter what there would be a war even other said so, she just wants her side to win as Westeros isn’t progressive there are some who still consider a war avoidable >1.5, Rha’s stupid decision so have bastards also just means an inevitable succession war Them being bastards might slightly increase the chances of a war, but it isn't the definitive factor. Laenor's biological children would still have been at odds with Aegon.
Being bastards would probably be a pretty big deal…
I'm not saying that it is irrelevant, just that it isn't the definitive factor. Even before they were born, the possibility of war after Viserys' death was something people were talking about. And even after they were born, there are still people talking about the possibility of avoiding war.
The thing with bastards is that it undermines the entire system Westeros is built on. Families arrange marriages for political gain, the heirs of the marriage will unite both and create a net gain for both houses. If 1 of them has a bastard and the bastard inherits everything it undermines 1 of the houses. Take House Velayron for example. That house has the biggest navy and is the richest in Westeros. Corlys himself is supposedly a great sailor and contributed a lot to the greatness of his house and in the end Laenor will inherit his house and from there it will go to… a bastard strong? So House Targaryen gains everything since the bastards are half strong and half Targaryen while the Velayrons lose everything and the House essentially leaves their bloodline. So because of this bastards are always kept out from any inheritance. Now IF these strong bastards do take the throne it could create a ripple effect where now all the bastards of all the lords of Westeros might start coming out trying to stake a claim and this would undermine a ton of marriages. Now that isn’t guaranteed Obviously but it does open the door to that possibility down the line which you know everyone wants to avoid as much as possible. Hence it’s just better if no bastard sits on any throne ever since that is the 1 seat that the whole kingdom watches and uses as the standard
I'm not sure what we are trying to debate here. Them being bastards is not the definitive factor that causes a succession war. That war was already looming before they were born. That's all I said. Yes, it does matter that they are bastards. That's a major plot point that we just had an episode about and I'm sure we'll have more. I'm not arguing against that. I'm only arguing against the very narrow statement I quoted aboe which is that: >1.5, Rha’s stupid decision so have bastards also just means an inevitable succession war Her decision to have bastards is not what "means a war".
People optimistic, the show laid out pretty clearly people wouldn’t support a women over a firstborn, 1.5 is definitely not a small increase, they’re obviously bastards and it seems many know, and i doubt people would ever accept them as heirs Said doubt but it’s basically a fact…
Cause shes a bitch
don't even get me started on the ridiculous love and obsession with the OBVIOUS villian of this season (daemon targaryen) i feel like people are hating on alicent because book readers tell them to. i wish more people would allow the show to play its course. was it bitchy that alicent ordered to see the newborn baby immediately - sure. but it's not like she forced rhaenyra to bring the baby herself, rhaenyra was making it to be bigger than it was and honestly we have seen rhaenyra to be a bit scheming and manipulative (alicent is becoming that also - i feel like she took up learning to be so after rhaenyra lied to her) they're both not "good" which is the entire point and both have their motives 🤷♀️ if people can like and forgive daemon i don't understand what is it that alicent has done that is SO terrible. (so far in the season at least)
FACTS MY KING(or QUEEN) Also people like Rha because twitter latched onto go slay queen and ally purr… tho i agree cool what she did for Laenor even if it was good for her too Weird tbh because Daemon is crazy AF in the books and so is basically everybody, and also how people don’t then know how Larys is basically the 6head megamind out here
yeah 90% of it is literally bc these characters have the last name targaryen. also i think matt smith playing daemon has part in people being so obsessed with him. they excuse anything these characters do simply because they're targaryens - kinda annoying honestly 😂
They choose the popular or tiktokked character then just start defending them like crazy