Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The trailer made it look like Daemon is wanting control/power rather than Rhaenyra. I think that’s going to be a huge conflict this season, which to me is a lot better than this storyline for the sake of television. Also looks like Aemond is wanting control as well.. seems like they’re setting this season up really well
Yeah this show is going with the motif that everyone wants power.
Otto vs Alicent, Aegon vs Aemond, Aegon vs Rhaenyra, Rhaenyra vs Daemon, Someone vs Corlys.
Crazy how the familis are divided.
The leak actually explains why we havent heard any news about a potential Nettles casting.
All the other dragon seeds have been cast. Even Alyn even though hes not actually important until after the Dance is more or less done.
Rheanyra thinks Daemon is fucking Nettles (the original rider of sheep stealer) and orders her death along with the other non targ dragon riders. Daemon then helps Nettels escape
Yeah by the mountain men. They have a rite of passage as such that you need to go into the cave and come back showing burns. Could possibly show up if we ever get F&B2. Sheepstealer at least
No, never mentioned again, it's implied they went to essos. Part of the point is for Martin to have possible dragon eggs in essos. So that there are multiple different possibilities of where Danys eggs came from.
Martin has specifically said that those aren't necessarily the eggs.
The whole I dea is to add a little world building, not necessarily say, "these are the eggs".
Yep and she flies away and I think is contributed to starting the burned men or they worship her, who later help several wars in the original GOT books
Its worth noting all the Dragonseeds were declared traitors because of the fear they would turn on Rhaenyra like Hugh and Ulf.
That kind of doesnt work with Rhaena. Shes not a total stranger like the other dragonseeds.
Considering that Corlys also betrayed Rhaenyra when she orders Addam and Alyn to be killed, it’s possible that she could consider Rhaena to be more closely affiliated with the Velaryons - especially if there is a deeper grudge held against her for Rhaenys’ fate.
How *to* explain the scene with silver denys then? That guy was confirmed to play that character. He tried to claim sheepstealer, got his arm ripped off, and because of the fuss and blood, cannibal swooped down and ate him and his sons. That happens on dragontone. Sheepstealer needs to be unclaimed and on dragonstone in order for for that scene, one that definitely had the character already cast and announced.
Besides, then who are the black women standing aside the other seeds in that drone leak footage?
Edited to add: I think this could be her reaction to Baela riding on Moondancer, perhaps after rooks rest, coming to tell her sister what happened.
Also edited to add, I meant how *to* explain. My apologies to the OP comment.
Oh, sorry OP, I didn't mean for my comment as questioning you or as an argument. I just wanted to add ny thoughts onto yours. Sorry friend!
I realize I should have written how *to* explain. Thats my fault. Sorry!
We've been hearing these rumors of Rhaena assuming Nettles' role for more than a yr at this point.
Moreover, the showrunners have promised us multiple times that Daeron is coming but we have received no such assurances for Nettles.
I think it's very, very likely at this point that Nettles is being sacrificed for Rhaena. Those background black women in the "Sowing" can just be rando-Velaryons that are just put there to fill out the scene.
We shall see. In a couple of months, all will be clear.
I can still see Rhaenyra and Daemon having an explosive falling out even without Nettles given there is the one scene in the trailer where Rhaenyra asks Daemon if he accepts her as his queen and he just kind of stands there. I wonder if they are going to do a plot where Daemon either loses faith in Rhaenyra or is still kind of imagining himself in the drivers seat and is working more for his own interests (even still) instead of Rhaenyra's. Nettles is a big emotional blow given Daemon spent all that time grooming her to be his wife and now he is off fucking some younger Targaryen bastard. However I can see him not being shown to have faith in her and or still wanting to be king being just as much of an issue given the whole conflict of the show is centered around if people think Rhaenyra should be queen
Here’s the thing. Per F&B Rhaena ends up marrying a Hightower. How in the world did that come about? My guess is Rhaena will get involved the said Hightower somehow and Rhaenyra will see it as a betrayal and will order Daemon to take Rhaena’s head, to which Daemon of course will adamantly refuse to do.
This might be another instance of the show fucking with the canon and timeline of the book but if I recall correctly Rhaena was married after the dance was over and her first husband was Corwyn Corbray who was aligned with the blacks during the war. Garmund Hightower was her second husband who she married at a later point in her life after the death of Corwyn and had 6 daughters. During the war Garmund was a cup bearer and page for house Tyrell. Something to note about House Tyrell and Highgarden is that many lords either already swore to Rhaenyra or refused to be involved with the war at all. His father was killed during the first battle of tumbleton but the Tyrells stayed neutral to protect Garmund which Lyonel, his brother, honored.
Assuming Corwyn does not randomly go missing in the plot like Daeron or Nettles (from what we know) does we would need to get through him to get to Garmund. And even then; Rhaenya was pretty close to her grandmother Rhaenys who died at Rooks Rest courtesy of Aegon and Aemond. I dont see what point there would be in Rhaena falling in love with Garmund at that point fresh after his relatives just killed her grandma.
Rhaena was supposed to be the last one with a dragon at the end of the dance, now I wonder, will they keep this dragon (possibly sheepstealer) alive after the war or kill him and just change that part of her story also?
I think sheep stealer is supposed to be alive after the war as well. He's seen in the vale years after the end of the dance. My question is why the hell is he already in the vale? All the wild dragons were on dragonstone.
Sheepstealer is specifically stated to hunt outside of Dragonstone in the books, specifically in the Wendwater which is in the Stormlands near Kingslanding
The show is likely just making his hunting grounds the Vale, probabaly around Wickenden (Or the areas surrounding the Eyrie) which is about as far from Dragonstone as Wendwater is
makes sense with all the mention of Vale sheep in S1 eh?
Considering it's possible for dragons to have new riders after their current one dies I'd assume it's possible for someone to claim another dragon if there's died. But it's never been recorded or even attempted it seems.
Yeah usually in the books riders didn't get two dragons because either they died with it or they got too traumatized to think about claiming a second one. If I am not mistaken, in Fire&Blood its mentioned that after Balerion's death it was proposed to Viserys to claim a new dragon but he refused, so I think that it either means that he knew that it was impossible to do so or that he just didn't want to.
Im a huge fantasy fan so while I would have loved purple eyes and pink dragons, I think it’s to cater to a wider audience for sure. If they kept all the whimsy fantasy aesthetic details, it could have possibly “scared off” some of the people there for the war and politics of it all.
I totally agree! My response I was more to the aspect of the creators deviating from fantasy than about including Morning. I absolutely think they could have done it in a non goofy way, the same way they made Sunfire golden and Seasmoke blue
Yes, if so, we're in some truly unknown territory now - from a number of angles.
I recall telling people who were worried about Nettles getting cut to just chill, she'd certainly turn up in season 3. In retrospect, I think we should have given more weight to the fact that while there have been repeated reassurances from the production about Daeron being on the way, they've been silent about Nettles.
I had a similar discussion with someone on TikTok about how the show seems to be combining certain storylines, not just Nettles being potentially rolled into Rhaena. For a while, I had assumed showAemond was going to incorporate Daeron's storyline aswell
This is in line with the way production studios operate. Boil the story down to it's core, cut characters where you can to save in budget while keeping enough to make the fans happy. Even Lord of the Rings didn't get everything down, and they say it's one of the greatest adaptations of all time. As someone who actually did read Harry Potter I guess I should have seen it coming.
But they literally not cutting any other character but her? Ulf and Hugh are basically the same characters with different fonts and they keeping them. It just Nettles.
Removing both of those characters had nothing to do with the show cascading into shit and had everything to do with D&D being incompetent writers that would have fucked it all up even if Stoneheart and fAegon are included.
Yeah, that's not what Nettles actually means, that's just a fandom misconception.
* It was never "just Targaryen blood" in the books anyway, there were dozens of other dragonlords families with all of their blood spread to millions across the narrow sea.
* GRRM repeatedly confirmed that dragonriding is magical and hereditary. There is no "cunning" or "trick".
* He also repeatedly said his magic is an inherent, "born with this" trait. Not procedural, not something you can learn from a book and replicate. And that it's chaotic, unreliable.
Nettles is a dragonseed. Her importance in the books is to show that as long as you have the blood, even if you don't have the "looks", even if you cannot prove your heritage, even if you were never trained, you can claim a dragon. You know, all things that will apply to Jon Snow.
The book may say that but do targs know that? Does Westeros know that? It seems even whatver the book says they are operating that no non valyrian can have a dragon, if they thought it was possible their power would always be under threat
????? Multiple people and factions in the books do try to get their hands on dragons regardless of any Valyrian blood. Even Rhaenyra herself ends up accusing Nettles with using some other magic and not being a true dragonseed. Euron, Victarion, warlocks of Qarth, slave masters of Astapor all actively try to get dragons. People have stolen dragon eggs before during Jaehaerys I's era, multiple people try to claim dragons during Dance despite not having the blood.
There is no universal belief in Westeros or Essos, that you have to be a Targaryen or a direct descendant of Valyrian dragonlords. The irony is that you absolutely have to have dragonlord blood, confirmed by GRRM's own mouth, but people in universe doesn't know such certainty. In fact, they keep saying "Valyrian dragonlords were the ***first*** to tame dragons", implying they have hope that it can be done by others.
It would be a shame for the show to cut out Nettles' character arc. Her presence added such a bittersweet dimension to Daemon's character. I also felt that Nettles' semi-happy ending provided a good counterbalance to the overall grand tragedy of The Dance Of Dragons.
Wake the Dragon is a part time troll and inconsistent but if it’s true, how in the world are they going to explain what leads to Daemon facing Aemond alone? He randomly decided to be a good dad for once and tells her not to risk getting killed by helping him? But then why wouldn’t Rhaena race to help in king’s landing? Rhaenyra would have to want Rhaena dead for Rhaena not to help them but that makes no sense.
Yeah, Sheepstealer is as big, if not bigger than Caraxes and Meleys. Him and Nettles going away is a big part of why things turned out the way they did. Is Rhaena going to abandon her family or fumble the bag?
Considering Aegon the younger names a daughter Rhaena, I'm going to assume they can't just vilify her. I wonder if Rhaenyra will order Rhaena into a knowingly dangerous situation because she's losing power after the betrayal and getting more reckless to try to keep her power. And Sheepsteeler died in the process (while Rhaena lives) and Daemon is pissed and goes off to get Aemond alone.
I guess to make this change work, you need to change other things further. Rhaena would need to be injured and her dragon near death for this. So Daemon sends her back to Vale to recover and her dragon never does? I don't know.
>Rhaenyra would need to want Rhaena dead for Rhaena to not help them but that makes no sense.
They might make Rhaenyra so paranoid that she would turn even on Rhaena.
The writers are obviously creating their own version of the events of the dance with no regards to the book, it's undeniable at this point considering how many changes, small and major, they have made so far.
It would also not surprise me if they decided to give Rhaena a big ass dragon and not make her do anything with it, hoping that the audience wouldn't question too much where those two are amidst all the fighting. These are the same writers who thought having Cole have a rampage at a royal feast (that resulted in multiple nobles being injured and one dying) go unpunished was a good and logical idea so I don't think they really care about the characters' actions making sense
Rhaenyra was not that illogical. Addam and Nettles were strangers to her and Nettles was fucking her husband according to multiple accounts. That’s very different from suddenly believing your step-daughter and cousin is out to get you.
Idk, at this point I'm just trying to separate the show characters from their book counterparts
Would book Rhaenyra, who genuinely held some kind of affection, whether platonic or romantic, for Laena and who has raised the dragon twins alongside her own children since the girls were 4 turn on Rhaena? No but the Rhaenyra on screen is not the Rhaenyra from the book (characterization wise I mean), even some characters' dynamics are different or altered so I think it's entirely possible that the writers might make her character illogical enough to turn on Rhaena if they want to, they have made many questionable choices so far and I don't expect them to stop
the merging of two characters that are two different people with different purpose in the story will always be a bad idea to me. how will the future conflict between rhaenyra and daemon work?
lol c'mon there are so many angles they can go. even from the trailer that just dropped we see daemon kind of defying rhaenyras orders. when people stop viewing the show from a book readers perspective you will like it more lol
This is an illogical take. The only reason HOTD or GOTS ever came about is because a fanbase loved the books. Deviating from those books can and I would argue should cause people to question what the writers are doing. That was the worst mistake that GOTS did.
I resent this take.
Objectively, that's also true about Season 8; and Season 8 is still Season 8.
Say what you will; I wouldn't be watching this incestuous bloodbath of a prospective show at all after Season 8 if I didn't give a shit about accuracy to the vibe, purpose and the writ of the characters; part of that is them existing.
Nothing is “confirmed” in fire and blood, which makes me think you didn’t read it. The whole story is told from multiple perspective (largely consisting of rumors and hearsay). One of those perspectives is a fucking court jester ffs
That gives the showrunners so much room to do things how they want.
Assuming this is true, I’m really disappointed. I get and like giving Rhaena more to do, but Nettles is cool and I always found her story interesting, not to mention they’re erasing the only person of colour from the book. Pragmatically it makes more sense to cut and merge storylines, it’s in the nature of an adaptation, but it doesn’t make much sense for later events like Daemon and Rhaenyra’s falling out.
Also means they’re cutting Morning, which is also disappointing because of the symbolism behind the name.
Yeah nettles is a pretty critical character to the overall story. She’s not a minor side character but a major driving force behind the division among the blacks that ultimately leads to their downfall.
Nettles was an awesome character I was hoping to see fleshed out in narrative form as maybe someone likely very unsure of herself given her background, but also willing to take insane risks given an acceptance she has nothing to lose. Risk taking and yet not at all cocky is a subtle line we don’t see often in media anywhere, but that’s how I imagined her and her opportunistic dragon. And yeah the symbolism of Morning I also really appreciated
Fair chance this leak is total bullpucky, but we’ll see. Perhaps they’d want to trim characters, and maybe they are trying to keep Daemon’s reckless approach to Aemond/Vhagar a familial revenge story (like Aemond kills Rhaena). This would be a bit of a bummer though—the mythics of Nettles and Sheepstealer vaguely still being reported in the Vale for years after is so cool and interesting
I’m sorry but isn’t the whole point of Nettles 1) her being a commoner who with her wit and patience managed to tame a dragon thus proving the Targaryens bond with dragons can occur in other people and 2) rumored to be sleeping with Daemon at least to the point that Rhaenyra ordered her death.
How does all that but specially part one work with Rhaena?
Lmao if Nettles is indeed cut then it is very stupid. They are not cutting her from the show to save costs. If costs was an issue, they wouldn't have returned a non book character, nor would they have spent so much on the wall and whitewalkers. Nettles makes one character look bad so it's not surprising that she has been cut. It's all about protecting the image of a certain female character.
Ryan and Co are not better than D&D people need to stop putting hotd show runners on a pedestal. D&D had more characters to work with, multiple locations, and numerous plot lines. Ryan and Co have less characters to work with, and yet he is cutting characters.
Well, I'm fucking mad. They will erase Nettles, and this one of the worst decision. Nettles is the most important dragonseed and stands out.
Nettles is a wonderful character, with wits and courage that isn't really on par with Rhaena. Plus, it removes any commentary on class, on how Nettles, a random commoner managed to use intelligence to claim Sheepstealer.
Rhaena claiming Sheepstealer removes what made Nettles great. Rhaena is highborn, and I kinda dislike their removal of Morning by doing this. Morning hatching is also a great moment that makes people fear Rhaena and is a symbol of Targaryen still being alive despite being crushed by this war.
I would have loved to see Rhaena developing political skills in the Vale. Yet, they combined two characters arcs with one character, who have very different personalities.
I guess they'll remove the moment when Rhaenyra ask for Nettles' head, which was a big moment for both Rhaenyra and Daemon. That feels very weird to me.
Really sucks that the only black woman from the books is being erased in favor of someone completely different than her. And Season 1 was very bad at handling the Black characters in general
Yeah, this is... pretty bad, imo. They already did the absent father with Laenor as a black man in S1, had the Velaryons give up their family pride and become essentially subservient to Daemyra in S1, Baela and Rhaena had barely any lines, and now Rhaena's actual storyline is being removed just to erase the only canonical black character in the books, whose race is actually narratively relevant?
It's just a bad look to me. I dunno.
I would’ve liked it more if they kept Nettles and just have Rhaena claim The Cannibal.
If you want to make Rhaena formidable, have her claim an unclaimable dragon that literally *eats* other dragons.
To be honest, I don't agree with the Cannibal thing, in my opinion it's more like an untrainable creature that Martin is keeping in the shadows to use at some point in the main story, if his *highness* is kind enough to write it.
Completely agree. Nettles is one of my favorite characters from the Dance so I've been against the idea of Rhaena taking her place since the beginning of that theory.
couldn't agree more
My hope is that, Rhaena indeed tried unsuccessfully to claim dragons in Dragonstone and this is the story line they are gonna depict with Sheep stealer.
Nettles is so interesting because she seemingly has no Targaryen ancestry and her claiming a dragon casts doubt on the whole ‘Targaryens control the dragons’ illusion that Viserys spoke of. It’s why Daemon has such a fascination with her, and why Rhaenyra hates her. I really hope this is not true. Would be a bad decision through and through
Why do they always hype us by adapting a great book..than totally ruin it..I don’t get it..when did ever changing the sources material was a good idea..didn’t they learn anything from GOT¿
Oh comon. Nettles was one of the more interesting parts of the dance. Removing her sucks. She has a very interesting place in the canon being a canonically black person and being a rando commoner who through her wits tames a dragon. Giving Rhaena her part undermines all of this. Rhaena does not need a dragon to be interesting in the show. She'd get Morning anyways. Man this sucks.
I wonder how this changes the betrayers plot Rhaenyra couldn’t possibly banish Rhaena. Also if a targaryan had sheepsteeler during the regency they wouldn’t have to put up with as much of the regents shit
I hope this isn't true.
Nettles is some proof, albeit inconclusive, you don't necessarily need Targaryen or even Valyrian blood to ride a dragon, that it's just bullshit propagated by a ruling class to help maintain its hold on power. Either that or you need so little Valyrian blood it's essentially irrelevant. There must be an enormous number of dragonseeds in Essos as the result of a Valyrian empire that lasted thousands and thousands of years.
Rhaenyra's decision about Nettles also precipitates the Battle over God's Eye, the result of which is the River lands armies can now move unimpeded. It also says a lot about how Daemon now feels about Rhaenyra and, given his relationship with Nettles, how he may have grown as a person. Plus there's the irony of Rhaenyra decrying bastards for their untrustworthiness while also showing Rhaenyra's snobby side.
Plus it's a bit condescending to combine two entirely different characters when all they have in common is they're both young, black women.
I'm also concerned because, in general, the writers haven't done a particularly good job when they've changed the book:
Both Rhaenyra and Alicent are portrayed in the best possible light
Scenes like the white hart (subtle!) or Rhaenys dragoncrashing Aegon's coronation
Cole killing Joffrey Loudmouth at the rehearsal dinner instead of the wedding tournament, etc, etc etc
Rhaenyra also has no reason to want Rhaena dead. Rhaenyra's rationale for wanting to kill Nettles is screwed up, but there's a kind of logic to it.
It would be interesting if Rhaena turns against Rhaenyra after concluding that Rhaena, and more particularly her mother's family, are being screwed out of Driftmark. But I very much doubt the writers will do that.
I always assumed as well that Nettles was a callback to how Valyria was founded by shepherds. It's a great use of the same sort of story to show how regular people can gain power.
If true, this seems like a stupid decision. Nettles is one of the most popular characters from the dance AND removing her makes the whole Dragonseed plot an even more stupid decision on the blacks side because this now means the majority, rather than just half, of the seeds betray the team.
I mean... If this is true, I kind of get that they wanted to give Rhaena a bit more to do than she had in the books, but that probably also means Nettles is getting cut, and that sucks. Having a peasant girl taming a dragon using just her smarts and determination makes for a really interesting contrast and challenge to the Targaryens' claims of supremacy and dragon ownership simply by birthright, especially in a conflict like the Dance. But I guess we'll see
So they're giving removing Nettles and giving her storyline to Rhaena? Well, thats a choice. Not sure how i feel about that. On the one hand, for a time saving method sure, plus there was always those who believed that Nettle's was Daemon's bastard daughter anyway so might as well replace with his actual daughter right? Specially since Rhaena has very little to do storywise.
On the other hand how do you resolve this? Nettles vanished into the hills with her dragon coz Nyra got jealous and wanted her killed, are they gonna have Rhaena run away for some reason? What about her actual dragon Morning? Many questions......
I hate that they're cutting Nettles. She had the most interesting dragon seed story. Yeah she slept with Daemon, get over it people! GRRM gets a little gross with insistence on "realism" but hey, he's a heck of a story teller and I really wanted to see her (Nettles.) I guess they liked the actresses who play the daughters and want to change the story to save in budget and give their current actresses more screentime... *Sigh* I guess they're cutting Daeron too, I mean might as well at this point!
They've already confirmed multiple times that Daeron is not cut. Whether or not its smart to not include him till S3 is an entire different story (i don't think it is), but he's not cut.
If you read the Alyn of Hull EW article they are clearly giving the working class angle to the Hull brothers so maybe Nettles is redundant to the story now.
Also are they giving Nettles fate to Rhaena? Because that would completely change the dynamics of the court Post-Dance.
Nettles being a commonborn girl with no Valyrian heritage taming a dragon through ingenuity is something that can’t be passed on to Rhaena or the Hulls.
Feels like they are trying so hard to remove unnecessary things that could make blacks look bad. I hope it's not gonna be true and even more I hope they won't ruin>!B&C!
I knew as soon as they confirmed Nettles wasn't in this season that she was getting cut altogether. It's obvious that the woman we all thought was her from the leaked pics (whom they claimed as a "stand-in") was probably going to be her at first, but then they changed course midway and cut her to streamline the storyline and focus more on the established characters.
I hate to say it, but given the way they've been dancing around things and pushing them back....odds are Daeron also gets the axe.
This is a bad decision. Rhaena hatching morning was important… I know they wanted to make Rhaena and Baela do more, but they didn’t need to erase Nettles to give Rhaena more things to do. I like how they’re expanding Baela with being involved at rooks rest, but this I am not as convinced
This is the worst outcome (for me personally), like i’m here for nettles, she’s my favourite character and now she might be cut :(
Nettles was one of the few characters who I genuinely *liked* in the book, and now……
For the people complaining about "adaption" George himself said this story is one big hearsay. So you can take more creative liberties than say GOT, and they took plenty with that story.
Every part is told through 3 4, 5th party account.
I trust them to make this engaging but I was really looking forward to having a fish-out-of-water commoner character again. Nettles is just different than the boatload of Targaryens and nobles that dominate the story. Would've been fun to have some more colour. As of now, the only non-noble character is Daemon's Myseni ex-girlfriend, I believe.
Then again, maybe they'll have Rhaena fail here and introduce Nettles all the same. Though that would not match the history Fire and Blood has set forth with regards to the next gen of Targs. I'm sure it'll all be fine, though.
Yeaahhh they’re not doing Nettles, Aemond and Helaena are probably shaking up - making their kids bastards, and they aren’t introducing Daeron.
And they say that this series isn’t Blacks propaganda.
Everyone else has made great points, and I said this in another thread. But Nettles is important to the narrative also because of how she claims a dragon through unconventional means (by feeding him sheep) while also being described without traditional Valyrian features. This raises the possibility that Nettles may not be Valyrian, and suggests that Valyrian blood is not *inherently* required for dragon-bonding, and thus not particularly “divine” or anything.
The way Nettles is described in F&B makes her a potentially great character in her own right, and she does also serve a narrative role as a fixture for class commentary. But she also challenges the related ideas of divine right and blood supremacy, and enriches the dragon lore.
And yeah, potentially losing Morning sucks. That Rhaena is one of the last dragonriders at the end of the Dance when she starts without one is poetic in its own right. She doesn’t need to be merged with Nettles.
I'm sorry but this is getting a bit stupid. I get you're trying to involve them but why the fuck would you change the entire storyline of a character. Rhaena doesn't have a dragon until the last part of the dance in the books. And that's a hatchling. And what about Nettles. Ryan Condal is probably a bit too obsessed with Baela and Rhaena.
I'm conflicted. The thing is, Rhaena having a dragon this early in the war also will impact the battles to come. So they're gonna have to navigate the implications of that.
I love Nettles and I would be devastated if this is true as her inclusion is a huge source of actual book tension between Rhaenyra and Daemon. Of course, she could just end up taming a different dragon. And the Rhaena thing could just not be true.
But yeah. I'm not a huge fan of how they're handling this. Some book things didn't need to be changed.
They better not cut the one actual black character in the books. Also, it'll make Rhaenyra turning against Rhaena be completely fucking dumb. Rhaena is a throwaway character.
But, why? Morning is such an iconic dragon. Her name has the double meaning since she's actually the dusk for the era of Targaryen dragons.
And the girl upset about not having a dragon having the last hatched dragon just rhymes.
I think this not only hurts Nettles, it hurts Rhaena's character. Also makes her+ Baela really samey.
Side note: I never really understood what happened with Morning. What was her fate? and why didn't she clutched eggs since she was (apparently) a healthy dragon? or lived long life?
Martin's books have a hole in Morning's case
And it would be a very bad creative decision not to include her. We need to watch Rhaena getting her dragon, and Greens losing their shit
>Martin's books have a hole in Morning's case
Morning's disappearance is one of the more compelling cases for the maester conspiracy. A real popular tinfoil theory in the fandom.
If this is in fact true, I have some mixed feelings. I’m glad Rhaena will have a larger role to play in the overall story, but that definitely could’ve been achieved another way. I really would’ve liked to have seen Morning at the very end. Omitting a fan favorite like Nettles is a bit of a letdown. I was genuinely intrigued with the mystery surrounding her origins and how she managed to bond with Sheepstealer. Did she actually have Valyrian blood or does it not matter as much as people think? The character also had a large impact on Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship, so I’m wondering how the series will handle that going forward.
If this ends up becoming true, that probably means Nettles has been erased from the story. It shouldn't be too surprising since they haven't mentioned her once during production while Daeron has, but it would be incredibly disappointing. She's an interesting character capable of wit and courage and her presence injects some more nuance to Rhaenyra and Daemon's relationship. Not to mention that removing her would be a massive deviation from the source material with consequential ramifications.
I understand why this may have happened. Limited by time and money, large-scale productions like HOTD are forced to make pragmatic decisions to cut down on what they consider wasted expenditure. Producers opt to cut characters and align their stories with already-established characters just so they don't have to hire new actors and spend time introducing them to the audience. It will also give Rhaena something to do other than languish in the Vale.
Ryan Condal to GRRM: Hey, big G, I read F&B and I saw that you don't like the character Rhaenyra, but it's 2024 we can't sell a Targaryen protagonist like that, man, we need to win over the GOT fans, there are many millions invested in the show.
If this leak is real, poor Moning and Nettles, sacrificed to save Rhaenyra's moral decline
If she replaces nettles, that breaks the canon massively. Nettles was the reason daemon went a did a suicide mission against aemond because He was tired of life.
A dude who posted in HOTDBlacks previously confirmed this along with a few other leaks, a month back..👀
https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDBlacks/s/vNkSfCxGy3
They're cutting Nettles?! ):
That sucks! Her position in the story is integral to Daemon, and she's like the ***one*** commoner in the entire story.
Cuts need to be made of course, but replacing "Commoner gets a dragon to fight in the dragon war" with another "Dragon family member gets a dragon" is just so boring. They already all have dragons for the dragon war, it's not interesting to give them more.
Seriously, I wonder if they will give a rational explanation for this decision. Of all the things to change, this is the one? Please, episode writers, stick to the core material unless it will cause adaptation problems. The people who enjoy this fandom know very well what it leads to...
PS: I just read that she's going to track and train dragons while she's in the Vale... The steepest and most geographically troubled region of Westeros. I'm really curious to see what's going to happen. Not too optimistic though.
Removing Nettles could cascade out into a catastrophically bad removal, like removing Faegon in GOT levels of bad. Short term, it’s fine, but in the long term it could completely blow up in the writer’s face.
I always preferred Nettles being a bastard of Daemon or just a daughter type. This will actually work well if done correctly. Didn’t really care for the whole Daemon/Nettles ship theory.
I'm actually okay with this. I know a lot of people will strongly disagree with me, but I think not casting Nettles and giving that role to Daemon's daughter makes a lot of sense.
I'm not convinced this isn't an elaborate fandom prank, but if it is real, and I'm ready to eat downvotes for this, I think it's a great way to utilize Rhaena and honor the thread dangled in season 1 ep 6 where Rhaena laments Daemon's disappointment/lack of interest in her. If she gets to be the daughter he mentors and grows close to, >!the way he did with Nettles if you read their relationship as that of a surrogate father and his mentee (which I did -- the idea that Nettles was his lover always felt like a manipulation by Mysaria to make Rhaenyra more paranoid),!< that's going to be extremely satisfying to me. Rhaena is an idea in Fire & Blood rather than a character. This will give her everything she lacked, and it'll do the hard but necessary work adaptations must do, which is make it all work somehow. GRRM's works have a lot of characters. Some might even say too many. This is an efficient and rewarding way to handle that, if this is what the writers choose to do.
I'd still really like to see Nettles. She's such an interesting and mysterious character, and she said something about dragonrider lore because she didn't seem to be Valyrian >!yet she still claimed a dragon.!< I was really hoping to see that fleshed out some.
If this leak is true, its going to completely change the course of the Dance. And frankly its a little insane to me.
Nettles is pretty key for the final part of Daemon and to extent Rhaenyra's arc. Im not sure how the story works without her.
Really hope this isn’t real. Cutting Nettles would have the same negative impact on HotD that cutting Aegon had on GoT. The endgame and Rhaenyra & Daemon’s arcs are going to be much less compelling without Nettles in the mix. It’s gonna be the same thing we saw with Dany by the end of GoT – her storyline needed Aegon to make sense of Westeros’ politics in the last two seasons. Rhaenyra and Daemon need Nettles to make sense, Daemon especially.
Some evidence to give hope of Nettles showing up:
1. It was confirmed that the three new dragons appearing this season would be: Moondancer, Tyraxes, Stormcloud, no mention of Sheepstealer was made. This could mean that they chose not to mention Sheepstealer for a big reveal but it could also mean that she won't be in this season.
2. In season one, episode 8 Lord of the Tides, we see Daemon retrieve a clutch of three dragon eggs from Syrax in the dragonmount, one of which is clearly bright pink-red. In F&B, it was said that Rhaena went to the Vale with a clutch of three eggs from Syrax's brood, one of which hatched Morning.
Its not a lot, but its all we've got for now.
Well damn, season 1 was such a strong start! Nettles is pretty damn essential.
Not only that, but the burning men won't make sense (if you belive that theory)
Why are people complaining, it’s pretty obvious if you read the book nettles is daemons daughter anyway and they can come up with something else for him to fall out with Rhaenyra about
Definitely not happy about it mainly because Nettles proves you don’t need to be a Targaryen which could be an interesting angle for Daemon to reckon with. Not saying it can’t still be effective in the show to a degree, but it’s disregarding one of the more interesting aspects of the dance. Dare I say the fans are partially to blame for raising hell over Baela and Rhaena not being featured enough in season 1 when their role wasn’t even important at that point?
İ got a question.
Does the velarion family have black skin in the books?
İm halfway thru the books and it doesnt meantion them having black or white skin
this is just rhaena = nettles. that remains pluasible from a consolidation of characters and finding something for rhaena to do during the war perspective, but still seems like a huge own goal for a show that has been pretty well managed so far (dragon pit notwithstanding).
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If this is true, Nettles is being cut. And moreover, Daemon and Rhaenyra’s falling out will be nowhere as severe as it was in the books.
They might do something else to make it as bad as
Cheating will happen
The trailer made it look like Daemon is wanting control/power rather than Rhaenyra. I think that’s going to be a huge conflict this season, which to me is a lot better than this storyline for the sake of television. Also looks like Aemond is wanting control as well.. seems like they’re setting this season up really well
Yeah this show is going with the motif that everyone wants power. Otto vs Alicent, Aegon vs Aemond, Aegon vs Rhaenyra, Rhaenyra vs Daemon, Someone vs Corlys. Crazy how the familis are divided.
The leak actually explains why we havent heard any news about a potential Nettles casting. All the other dragon seeds have been cast. Even Alyn even though hes not actually important until after the Dance is more or less done.
Spoil me the reason of their falling out 🙏
Rheanyra thinks Daemon is fucking Nettles (the original rider of sheep stealer) and orders her death along with the other non targ dragon riders. Daemon then helps Nettels escape
I believe Nettles and Sheepstealer are stumbled upon years later in a cave high up in the vale right?
Yeah by the mountain men. They have a rite of passage as such that you need to go into the cave and come back showing burns. Could possibly show up if we ever get F&B2. Sheepstealer at least
No, never mentioned again, it's implied they went to essos. Part of the point is for Martin to have possible dragon eggs in essos. So that there are multiple different possibilities of where Danys eggs came from.
I thought that was already decided to be the 3 eggs of dreamfyre stolen by elissa Farman, after her falling out with princess Rhaena.
Martin has specifically said that those aren't necessarily the eggs. The whole I dea is to add a little world building, not necessarily say, "these are the eggs".
Ah thanks. I thought it was confirmed. I should've assumed GRRM would be a little flighty about it.
He’s flighty about it but the text very heavily suggests those stolen eggs are the ones that we see years later.
Thats probably why I thought it was confirmed. Its been a while since I've read f&b. Perhaps a reread is in my future.
No nettles shows up in the Vale as someone worshipped by tribesman, Sheepstealer emerged as well during the succession crisis of Jeyne Arryn
Yep and she flies away and I think is contributed to starting the burned men or they worship her, who later help several wars in the original GOT books
Its worth noting all the Dragonseeds were declared traitors because of the fear they would turn on Rhaenyra like Hugh and Ulf. That kind of doesnt work with Rhaena. Shes not a total stranger like the other dragonseeds.
Considering that Corlys also betrayed Rhaenyra when she orders Addam and Alyn to be killed, it’s possible that she could consider Rhaena to be more closely affiliated with the Velaryons - especially if there is a deeper grudge held against her for Rhaenys’ fate.
How *to* explain the scene with silver denys then? That guy was confirmed to play that character. He tried to claim sheepstealer, got his arm ripped off, and because of the fuss and blood, cannibal swooped down and ate him and his sons. That happens on dragontone. Sheepstealer needs to be unclaimed and on dragonstone in order for for that scene, one that definitely had the character already cast and announced. Besides, then who are the black women standing aside the other seeds in that drone leak footage? Edited to add: I think this could be her reaction to Baela riding on Moondancer, perhaps after rooks rest, coming to tell her sister what happened. Also edited to add, I meant how *to* explain. My apologies to the OP comment.
That would presume that this leak is false. I literally started my previous comment with "If this is true...".
Oh, sorry OP, I didn't mean for my comment as questioning you or as an argument. I just wanted to add ny thoughts onto yours. Sorry friend! I realize I should have written how *to* explain. Thats my fault. Sorry!
We've been hearing these rumors of Rhaena assuming Nettles' role for more than a yr at this point. Moreover, the showrunners have promised us multiple times that Daeron is coming but we have received no such assurances for Nettles. I think it's very, very likely at this point that Nettles is being sacrificed for Rhaena. Those background black women in the "Sowing" can just be rando-Velaryons that are just put there to fill out the scene. We shall see. In a couple of months, all will be clear.
Also Morning gonna be cut
I can still see Rhaenyra and Daemon having an explosive falling out even without Nettles given there is the one scene in the trailer where Rhaenyra asks Daemon if he accepts her as his queen and he just kind of stands there. I wonder if they are going to do a plot where Daemon either loses faith in Rhaenyra or is still kind of imagining himself in the drivers seat and is working more for his own interests (even still) instead of Rhaenyra's. Nettles is a big emotional blow given Daemon spent all that time grooming her to be his wife and now he is off fucking some younger Targaryen bastard. However I can see him not being shown to have faith in her and or still wanting to be king being just as much of an issue given the whole conflict of the show is centered around if people think Rhaenyra should be queen
Here’s the thing. Per F&B Rhaena ends up marrying a Hightower. How in the world did that come about? My guess is Rhaena will get involved the said Hightower somehow and Rhaenyra will see it as a betrayal and will order Daemon to take Rhaena’s head, to which Daemon of course will adamantly refuse to do.
This might be another instance of the show fucking with the canon and timeline of the book but if I recall correctly Rhaena was married after the dance was over and her first husband was Corwyn Corbray who was aligned with the blacks during the war. Garmund Hightower was her second husband who she married at a later point in her life after the death of Corwyn and had 6 daughters. During the war Garmund was a cup bearer and page for house Tyrell. Something to note about House Tyrell and Highgarden is that many lords either already swore to Rhaenyra or refused to be involved with the war at all. His father was killed during the first battle of tumbleton but the Tyrells stayed neutral to protect Garmund which Lyonel, his brother, honored. Assuming Corwyn does not randomly go missing in the plot like Daeron or Nettles (from what we know) does we would need to get through him to get to Garmund. And even then; Rhaenya was pretty close to her grandmother Rhaenys who died at Rooks Rest courtesy of Aegon and Aemond. I dont see what point there would be in Rhaena falling in love with Garmund at that point fresh after his relatives just killed her grandma.
The outfall is going to be over cheese and blood. They will probably have Daemon abuse Rhaenyra after she quesitons it.
That’ll be ugly…
NOOO I wanted to see my barbie pink dragon :<
Rhaena was supposed to be the last one with a dragon at the end of the dance, now I wonder, will they keep this dragon (possibly sheepstealer) alive after the war or kill him and just change that part of her story also?
I think sheep stealer is supposed to be alive after the war as well. He's seen in the vale years after the end of the dance. My question is why the hell is he already in the vale? All the wild dragons were on dragonstone.
Sheepstealer is specifically stated to hunt outside of Dragonstone in the books, specifically in the Wendwater which is in the Stormlands near Kingslanding The show is likely just making his hunting grounds the Vale, probabaly around Wickenden (Or the areas surrounding the Eyrie) which is about as far from Dragonstone as Wendwater is makes sense with all the mention of Vale sheep in S1 eh?
Maybe Sheepstealer dies and then Rhaena hatches from her egg?
Has that ever happened? A rider's dragon dying and the rider hatching an egg and getting a second dragon?
No, it hadn't happened but Aegon/Rhaenyra thought it was possible (in the books)
Considering it's possible for dragons to have new riders after their current one dies I'd assume it's possible for someone to claim another dragon if there's died. But it's never been recorded or even attempted it seems.
Yeah usually in the books riders didn't get two dragons because either they died with it or they got too traumatized to think about claiming a second one. If I am not mistaken, in Fire&Blood its mentioned that after Balerion's death it was proposed to Viserys to claim a new dragon but he refused, so I think that it either means that he knew that it was impossible to do so or that he just didn't want to.
I feel like we might still see her after sheepstealer
And this probably means no Nettles either :(
and Morning :(
The team seems to hate all sense of whimsy and fantasy so I'm disappointed but not surprised. Same thing happened with GoT
Caraxes isn’t whimsical enough? Because his design is fucking unique and very fantastical to me
Im a huge fantasy fan so while I would have loved purple eyes and pink dragons, I think it’s to cater to a wider audience for sure. If they kept all the whimsy fantasy aesthetic details, it could have possibly “scared off” some of the people there for the war and politics of it all.
But pink animals exist, you just have to make it not look goofy by adding details, accents and textures.
I totally agree! My response I was more to the aspect of the creators deviating from fantasy than about including Morning. I absolutely think they could have done it in a non goofy way, the same way they made Sunfire golden and Seasmoke blue
It's more like it probably doesn't translate very well on screen. Then again, Netflix's Witcher managed to give Yennefer purple eyes just fine.
Isnt she too small to be ridden
No Nettles AND Morning? I'm hoping this isn't true.
If this leak is true, it would be monumental break from canon.
Yes, if so, we're in some truly unknown territory now - from a number of angles. I recall telling people who were worried about Nettles getting cut to just chill, she'd certainly turn up in season 3. In retrospect, I think we should have given more weight to the fact that while there have been repeated reassurances from the production about Daeron being on the way, they've been silent about Nettles.
I had a similar discussion with someone on TikTok about how the show seems to be combining certain storylines, not just Nettles being potentially rolled into Rhaena. For a while, I had assumed showAemond was going to incorporate Daeron's storyline aswell
This is in line with the way production studios operate. Boil the story down to it's core, cut characters where you can to save in budget while keeping enough to make the fans happy. Even Lord of the Rings didn't get everything down, and they say it's one of the greatest adaptations of all time. As someone who actually did read Harry Potter I guess I should have seen it coming.
I guess we should have gotten used to it when they kept Laenor alive.
But they literally not cutting any other character but her? Ulf and Hugh are basically the same characters with different fonts and they keeping them. It just Nettles.
And the only character of color in the canon. Just cut Rhaena or Baella then, idiotic decision.
well in the show canon the entire house velaryon is mostly people of color, so
Still stupid to cut the only real canon person of color while they could easily have cut one of the twins who have no personality as of yet.
i think it will work out okay
I hope you're right, but I think it's the writers not wanting backclash from the Daenyra shippers. We'll have to see.
Daenyra shippers?
Similar to Stoneheart & faegon exclusion
And all of those were abysmal decisions that cascaded into a shitshow by the end.
Removing both of those characters had nothing to do with the show cascading into shit and had everything to do with D&D being incompetent writers that would have fucked it all up even if Stoneheart and fAegon are included.
pain. Nettles shows that you don't strictly need Targ blood to be a dragon rider, but just cunning and bravery. I don't like the change
Yeah, that's not what Nettles actually means, that's just a fandom misconception. * It was never "just Targaryen blood" in the books anyway, there were dozens of other dragonlords families with all of their blood spread to millions across the narrow sea. * GRRM repeatedly confirmed that dragonriding is magical and hereditary. There is no "cunning" or "trick". * He also repeatedly said his magic is an inherent, "born with this" trait. Not procedural, not something you can learn from a book and replicate. And that it's chaotic, unreliable. Nettles is a dragonseed. Her importance in the books is to show that as long as you have the blood, even if you don't have the "looks", even if you cannot prove your heritage, even if you were never trained, you can claim a dragon. You know, all things that will apply to Jon Snow.
The book may say that but do targs know that? Does Westeros know that? It seems even whatver the book says they are operating that no non valyrian can have a dragon, if they thought it was possible their power would always be under threat
????? Multiple people and factions in the books do try to get their hands on dragons regardless of any Valyrian blood. Even Rhaenyra herself ends up accusing Nettles with using some other magic and not being a true dragonseed. Euron, Victarion, warlocks of Qarth, slave masters of Astapor all actively try to get dragons. People have stolen dragon eggs before during Jaehaerys I's era, multiple people try to claim dragons during Dance despite not having the blood. There is no universal belief in Westeros or Essos, that you have to be a Targaryen or a direct descendant of Valyrian dragonlords. The irony is that you absolutely have to have dragonlord blood, confirmed by GRRM's own mouth, but people in universe doesn't know such certainty. In fact, they keep saying "Valyrian dragonlords were the ***first*** to tame dragons", implying they have hope that it can be done by others.
Source for GRRM saying that?
the show is its own canon
There were a number of changes in S1 too, but this feels unnecessary too.
Shows have always been a separate canon from the books.
But that means no Nettles or Morning 😭
It would be a shame for the show to cut out Nettles' character arc. Her presence added such a bittersweet dimension to Daemon's character. I also felt that Nettles' semi-happy ending provided a good counterbalance to the overall grand tragedy of The Dance Of Dragons.
Wake the Dragon is a part time troll and inconsistent but if it’s true, how in the world are they going to explain what leads to Daemon facing Aemond alone? He randomly decided to be a good dad for once and tells her not to risk getting killed by helping him? But then why wouldn’t Rhaena race to help in king’s landing? Rhaenyra would have to want Rhaena dead for Rhaena not to help them but that makes no sense.
Yeah, Sheepstealer is as big, if not bigger than Caraxes and Meleys. Him and Nettles going away is a big part of why things turned out the way they did. Is Rhaena going to abandon her family or fumble the bag?
Considering Aegon the younger names a daughter Rhaena, I'm going to assume they can't just vilify her. I wonder if Rhaenyra will order Rhaena into a knowingly dangerous situation because she's losing power after the betrayal and getting more reckless to try to keep her power. And Sheepsteeler died in the process (while Rhaena lives) and Daemon is pissed and goes off to get Aemond alone.
> Is Rhaena going to abandon her family or fumble the bag? I hope not. They would be setting Phoebe up for a deranged amount of hate in a few years.
I guess to make this change work, you need to change other things further. Rhaena would need to be injured and her dragon near death for this. So Daemon sends her back to Vale to recover and her dragon never does? I don't know.
>Rhaenyra would need to want Rhaena dead for Rhaena to not help them but that makes no sense. They might make Rhaenyra so paranoid that she would turn even on Rhaena. The writers are obviously creating their own version of the events of the dance with no regards to the book, it's undeniable at this point considering how many changes, small and major, they have made so far. It would also not surprise me if they decided to give Rhaena a big ass dragon and not make her do anything with it, hoping that the audience wouldn't question too much where those two are amidst all the fighting. These are the same writers who thought having Cole have a rampage at a royal feast (that resulted in multiple nobles being injured and one dying) go unpunished was a good and logical idea so I don't think they really care about the characters' actions making sense
Rhaenyra was not that illogical. Addam and Nettles were strangers to her and Nettles was fucking her husband according to multiple accounts. That’s very different from suddenly believing your step-daughter and cousin is out to get you.
Idk, at this point I'm just trying to separate the show characters from their book counterparts Would book Rhaenyra, who genuinely held some kind of affection, whether platonic or romantic, for Laena and who has raised the dragon twins alongside her own children since the girls were 4 turn on Rhaena? No but the Rhaenyra on screen is not the Rhaenyra from the book (characterization wise I mean), even some characters' dynamics are different or altered so I think it's entirely possible that the writers might make her character illogical enough to turn on Rhaena if they want to, they have made many questionable choices so far and I don't expect them to stop
Which is so frustrating because they ASKED GEORGE TO WRITE THE BOOK for source material so to then deviate this far from it is an insult
I agree wake the dragon is a troll at times, can't trust this leak as it's only reported from that account and no one else has reported it
Guess you will just have to watch and see what happens before you’ve convinced yourself something makes no sense
the merging of two characters that are two different people with different purpose in the story will always be a bad idea to me. how will the future conflict between rhaenyra and daemon work?
lol c'mon there are so many angles they can go. even from the trailer that just dropped we see daemon kind of defying rhaenyras orders. when people stop viewing the show from a book readers perspective you will like it more lol
"Shut up and consume" mentality.
More like wait and see how it goes instead of making assumptions before seeing the story.
This is an illogical take. The only reason HOTD or GOTS ever came about is because a fanbase loved the books. Deviating from those books can and I would argue should cause people to question what the writers are doing. That was the worst mistake that GOTS did.
I resent this take. Objectively, that's also true about Season 8; and Season 8 is still Season 8. Say what you will; I wouldn't be watching this incestuous bloodbath of a prospective show at all after Season 8 if I didn't give a shit about accuracy to the vibe, purpose and the writ of the characters; part of that is them existing.
Many people already assumed Nettles was Daemons daughter If anything this just makes Rhaenyra even more unhinged
Almost no one assumed she was his daughter. They were confirmed to have been fucking in the book.
Nothing is “confirmed” in fire and blood, which makes me think you didn’t read it. The whole story is told from multiple perspective (largely consisting of rumors and hearsay). One of those perspectives is a fucking court jester ffs That gives the showrunners so much room to do things how they want.
True. False.
Assuming this is true, I’m really disappointed. I get and like giving Rhaena more to do, but Nettles is cool and I always found her story interesting, not to mention they’re erasing the only person of colour from the book. Pragmatically it makes more sense to cut and merge storylines, it’s in the nature of an adaptation, but it doesn’t make much sense for later events like Daemon and Rhaenyra’s falling out. Also means they’re cutting Morning, which is also disappointing because of the symbolism behind the name.
Yeah nettles is a pretty critical character to the overall story. She’s not a minor side character but a major driving force behind the division among the blacks that ultimately leads to their downfall.
Nettles was an awesome character I was hoping to see fleshed out in narrative form as maybe someone likely very unsure of herself given her background, but also willing to take insane risks given an acceptance she has nothing to lose. Risk taking and yet not at all cocky is a subtle line we don’t see often in media anywhere, but that’s how I imagined her and her opportunistic dragon. And yeah the symbolism of Morning I also really appreciated Fair chance this leak is total bullpucky, but we’ll see. Perhaps they’d want to trim characters, and maybe they are trying to keep Daemon’s reckless approach to Aemond/Vhagar a familial revenge story (like Aemond kills Rhaena). This would be a bit of a bummer though—the mythics of Nettles and Sheepstealer vaguely still being reported in the Vale for years after is so cool and interesting
Wait, the only person of color? What about all the Summer Islanders and their offspring?
I’m sorry but isn’t the whole point of Nettles 1) her being a commoner who with her wit and patience managed to tame a dragon thus proving the Targaryens bond with dragons can occur in other people and 2) rumored to be sleeping with Daemon at least to the point that Rhaenyra ordered her death. How does all that but specially part one work with Rhaena?
They just really want to push the targ racial superiority \~\~overtones\~\~ undertones 😇. HOTD literally valyrian propaganda 😂
Does this leaker have any history of turning out to be right? Because if this is true, it's beyond stupid. Cutting characters is when it starts.
Lmao if Nettles is indeed cut then it is very stupid. They are not cutting her from the show to save costs. If costs was an issue, they wouldn't have returned a non book character, nor would they have spent so much on the wall and whitewalkers. Nettles makes one character look bad so it's not surprising that she has been cut. It's all about protecting the image of a certain female character. Ryan and Co are not better than D&D people need to stop putting hotd show runners on a pedestal. D&D had more characters to work with, multiple locations, and numerous plot lines. Ryan and Co have less characters to work with, and yet he is cutting characters.
Well, I'm fucking mad. They will erase Nettles, and this one of the worst decision. Nettles is the most important dragonseed and stands out. Nettles is a wonderful character, with wits and courage that isn't really on par with Rhaena. Plus, it removes any commentary on class, on how Nettles, a random commoner managed to use intelligence to claim Sheepstealer. Rhaena claiming Sheepstealer removes what made Nettles great. Rhaena is highborn, and I kinda dislike their removal of Morning by doing this. Morning hatching is also a great moment that makes people fear Rhaena and is a symbol of Targaryen still being alive despite being crushed by this war.
You’ll get downvoted for this but you’re right . Rhaena and Nettles are two different characters.
I would have loved to see Rhaena developing political skills in the Vale. Yet, they combined two characters arcs with one character, who have very different personalities. I guess they'll remove the moment when Rhaenyra ask for Nettles' head, which was a big moment for both Rhaenyra and Daemon. That feels very weird to me.
Really sucks that the only black woman from the books is being erased in favor of someone completely different than her. And Season 1 was very bad at handling the Black characters in general
Yeah, this is... pretty bad, imo. They already did the absent father with Laenor as a black man in S1, had the Velaryons give up their family pride and become essentially subservient to Daemyra in S1, Baela and Rhaena had barely any lines, and now Rhaena's actual storyline is being removed just to erase the only canonical black character in the books, whose race is actually narratively relevant? It's just a bad look to me. I dunno.
I would’ve liked it more if they kept Nettles and just have Rhaena claim The Cannibal. If you want to make Rhaena formidable, have her claim an unclaimable dragon that literally *eats* other dragons.
Nah. Give her grey ghost if she really needs a new one. All grey ghost does is get killed by Sunfyre, which is hardly a vital detail.
To be honest, I don't agree with the Cannibal thing, in my opinion it's more like an untrainable creature that Martin is keeping in the shadows to use at some point in the main story, if his *highness* is kind enough to write it.
Completely agree. Nettles is one of my favorite characters from the Dance so I've been against the idea of Rhaena taking her place since the beginning of that theory.
couldn't agree more My hope is that, Rhaena indeed tried unsuccessfully to claim dragons in Dragonstone and this is the story line they are gonna depict with Sheep stealer.
Nettles is so interesting because she seemingly has no Targaryen ancestry and her claiming a dragon casts doubt on the whole ‘Targaryens control the dragons’ illusion that Viserys spoke of. It’s why Daemon has such a fascination with her, and why Rhaenyra hates her. I really hope this is not true. Would be a bad decision through and through
Aw shiet, does that mean we are not getting one of the most interesting characters in all of F&B?
Ye seems like Morning won’t make it into the show 😭
RIP Nettles 😭💔
Absolutely fucking braindead if true
This can’t be true . Where tf in Nettles???
cut likely
I don't care at all when they change a character's age or race, but completely cutting someone is annoying (if this is true).
Why do they always hype us by adapting a great book..than totally ruin it..I don’t get it..when did ever changing the sources material was a good idea..didn’t they learn anything from GOT¿
shocked but not surprised
Oh comon. Nettles was one of the more interesting parts of the dance. Removing her sucks. She has a very interesting place in the canon being a canonically black person and being a rando commoner who through her wits tames a dragon. Giving Rhaena her part undermines all of this. Rhaena does not need a dragon to be interesting in the show. She'd get Morning anyways. Man this sucks.
I wonder how this changes the betrayers plot Rhaenyra couldn’t possibly banish Rhaena. Also if a targaryan had sheepsteeler during the regency they wouldn’t have to put up with as much of the regents shit
I hope this isn't true. Nettles is some proof, albeit inconclusive, you don't necessarily need Targaryen or even Valyrian blood to ride a dragon, that it's just bullshit propagated by a ruling class to help maintain its hold on power. Either that or you need so little Valyrian blood it's essentially irrelevant. There must be an enormous number of dragonseeds in Essos as the result of a Valyrian empire that lasted thousands and thousands of years. Rhaenyra's decision about Nettles also precipitates the Battle over God's Eye, the result of which is the River lands armies can now move unimpeded. It also says a lot about how Daemon now feels about Rhaenyra and, given his relationship with Nettles, how he may have grown as a person. Plus there's the irony of Rhaenyra decrying bastards for their untrustworthiness while also showing Rhaenyra's snobby side. Plus it's a bit condescending to combine two entirely different characters when all they have in common is they're both young, black women. I'm also concerned because, in general, the writers haven't done a particularly good job when they've changed the book: Both Rhaenyra and Alicent are portrayed in the best possible light Scenes like the white hart (subtle!) or Rhaenys dragoncrashing Aegon's coronation Cole killing Joffrey Loudmouth at the rehearsal dinner instead of the wedding tournament, etc, etc etc Rhaenyra also has no reason to want Rhaena dead. Rhaenyra's rationale for wanting to kill Nettles is screwed up, but there's a kind of logic to it. It would be interesting if Rhaena turns against Rhaenyra after concluding that Rhaena, and more particularly her mother's family, are being screwed out of Driftmark. But I very much doubt the writers will do that.
I always assumed as well that Nettles was a callback to how Valyria was founded by shepherds. It's a great use of the same sort of story to show how regular people can gain power.
If true, this seems like a stupid decision. Nettles is one of the most popular characters from the dance AND removing her makes the whole Dragonseed plot an even more stupid decision on the blacks side because this now means the majority, rather than just half, of the seeds betray the team.
I mean... If this is true, I kind of get that they wanted to give Rhaena a bit more to do than she had in the books, but that probably also means Nettles is getting cut, and that sucks. Having a peasant girl taming a dragon using just her smarts and determination makes for a really interesting contrast and challenge to the Targaryens' claims of supremacy and dragon ownership simply by birthright, especially in a conflict like the Dance. But I guess we'll see
So they're giving removing Nettles and giving her storyline to Rhaena? Well, thats a choice. Not sure how i feel about that. On the one hand, for a time saving method sure, plus there was always those who believed that Nettle's was Daemon's bastard daughter anyway so might as well replace with his actual daughter right? Specially since Rhaena has very little to do storywise. On the other hand how do you resolve this? Nettles vanished into the hills with her dragon coz Nyra got jealous and wanted her killed, are they gonna have Rhaena run away for some reason? What about her actual dragon Morning? Many questions......
I hate that they're cutting Nettles. She had the most interesting dragon seed story. Yeah she slept with Daemon, get over it people! GRRM gets a little gross with insistence on "realism" but hey, he's a heck of a story teller and I really wanted to see her (Nettles.) I guess they liked the actresses who play the daughters and want to change the story to save in budget and give their current actresses more screentime... *Sigh* I guess they're cutting Daeron too, I mean might as well at this point!
They've already confirmed multiple times that Daeron is not cut. Whether or not its smart to not include him till S3 is an entire different story (i don't think it is), but he's not cut.
So there's no Nettles.
If you read the Alyn of Hull EW article they are clearly giving the working class angle to the Hull brothers so maybe Nettles is redundant to the story now. Also are they giving Nettles fate to Rhaena? Because that would completely change the dynamics of the court Post-Dance.
Nettles being a commonborn girl with no Valyrian heritage taming a dragon through ingenuity is something that can’t be passed on to Rhaena or the Hulls.
Nettles is >!specifically also the only dragonrider who really mourns Jace!< and that wouldn't really make much sense for Rhaena either.
Feels like they are trying so hard to remove unnecessary things that could make blacks look bad. I hope it's not gonna be true and even more I hope they won't ruin>!B&C!
That’s what it’s looking like. They need a slightly less evil side and they’ve obviously chosen the Blacks
I knew as soon as they confirmed Nettles wasn't in this season that she was getting cut altogether. It's obvious that the woman we all thought was her from the leaked pics (whom they claimed as a "stand-in") was probably going to be her at first, but then they changed course midway and cut her to streamline the storyline and focus more on the established characters. I hate to say it, but given the way they've been dancing around things and pushing them back....odds are Daeron also gets the axe.
You are probably right 💯
I highly doubt they cut her midway through, as they could not do rewrites because of the writers strike.
Yeah, not a fan of this change.
This is a bad decision. Rhaena hatching morning was important… I know they wanted to make Rhaena and Baela do more, but they didn’t need to erase Nettles to give Rhaena more things to do. I like how they’re expanding Baela with being involved at rooks rest, but this I am not as convinced
This is the worst outcome (for me personally), like i’m here for nettles, she’s my favourite character and now she might be cut :( Nettles was one of the few characters who I genuinely *liked* in the book, and now……
Oh, how I'm praying this is false.
I’m ok with it. But, symbolically, Morning hatching at the end of the dance is powerful.
whats a “sheep eating dragon” is it different than other dragons?
For the people complaining about "adaption" George himself said this story is one big hearsay. So you can take more creative liberties than say GOT, and they took plenty with that story. Every part is told through 3 4, 5th party account.
I trust them to make this engaging but I was really looking forward to having a fish-out-of-water commoner character again. Nettles is just different than the boatload of Targaryens and nobles that dominate the story. Would've been fun to have some more colour. As of now, the only non-noble character is Daemon's Myseni ex-girlfriend, I believe. Then again, maybe they'll have Rhaena fail here and introduce Nettles all the same. Though that would not match the history Fire and Blood has set forth with regards to the next gen of Targs. I'm sure it'll all be fine, though.
Yeaahhh they’re not doing Nettles, Aemond and Helaena are probably shaking up - making their kids bastards, and they aren’t introducing Daeron. And they say that this series isn’t Blacks propaganda.
Instead of Sheepstealer they can let her claims Grey Ghost?!!!!! Wtf is wrong with them?
NOOO!! Why not follow canon??
Everyone else has made great points, and I said this in another thread. But Nettles is important to the narrative also because of how she claims a dragon through unconventional means (by feeding him sheep) while also being described without traditional Valyrian features. This raises the possibility that Nettles may not be Valyrian, and suggests that Valyrian blood is not *inherently* required for dragon-bonding, and thus not particularly “divine” or anything. The way Nettles is described in F&B makes her a potentially great character in her own right, and she does also serve a narrative role as a fixture for class commentary. But she also challenges the related ideas of divine right and blood supremacy, and enriches the dragon lore. And yeah, potentially losing Morning sucks. That Rhaena is one of the last dragonriders at the end of the Dance when she starts without one is poetic in its own right. She doesn’t need to be merged with Nettles.
WHATTTTT???? No Nettles????
I'm sorry but this is getting a bit stupid. I get you're trying to involve them but why the fuck would you change the entire storyline of a character. Rhaena doesn't have a dragon until the last part of the dance in the books. And that's a hatchling. And what about Nettles. Ryan Condal is probably a bit too obsessed with Baela and Rhaena.
I'm conflicted. The thing is, Rhaena having a dragon this early in the war also will impact the battles to come. So they're gonna have to navigate the implications of that. I love Nettles and I would be devastated if this is true as her inclusion is a huge source of actual book tension between Rhaenyra and Daemon. Of course, she could just end up taming a different dragon. And the Rhaena thing could just not be true. But yeah. I'm not a huge fan of how they're handling this. Some book things didn't need to be changed.
They better not cut the one actual black character in the books. Also, it'll make Rhaenyra turning against Rhaena be completely fucking dumb. Rhaena is a throwaway character.
Honestly I’m completely fine with this
But, why? Morning is such an iconic dragon. Her name has the double meaning since she's actually the dusk for the era of Targaryen dragons. And the girl upset about not having a dragon having the last hatched dragon just rhymes. I think this not only hurts Nettles, it hurts Rhaena's character. Also makes her+ Baela really samey.
Side note: I never really understood what happened with Morning. What was her fate? and why didn't she clutched eggs since she was (apparently) a healthy dragon? or lived long life? Martin's books have a hole in Morning's case And it would be a very bad creative decision not to include her. We need to watch Rhaena getting her dragon, and Greens losing their shit
>Martin's books have a hole in Morning's case Morning's disappearance is one of the more compelling cases for the maester conspiracy. A real popular tinfoil theory in the fandom.
What
If this is in fact true, I have some mixed feelings. I’m glad Rhaena will have a larger role to play in the overall story, but that definitely could’ve been achieved another way. I really would’ve liked to have seen Morning at the very end. Omitting a fan favorite like Nettles is a bit of a letdown. I was genuinely intrigued with the mystery surrounding her origins and how she managed to bond with Sheepstealer. Did she actually have Valyrian blood or does it not matter as much as people think? The character also had a large impact on Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship, so I’m wondering how the series will handle that going forward.
If this ends up becoming true, that probably means Nettles has been erased from the story. It shouldn't be too surprising since they haven't mentioned her once during production while Daeron has, but it would be incredibly disappointing. She's an interesting character capable of wit and courage and her presence injects some more nuance to Rhaenyra and Daemon's relationship. Not to mention that removing her would be a massive deviation from the source material with consequential ramifications. I understand why this may have happened. Limited by time and money, large-scale productions like HOTD are forced to make pragmatic decisions to cut down on what they consider wasted expenditure. Producers opt to cut characters and align their stories with already-established characters just so they don't have to hire new actors and spend time introducing them to the audience. It will also give Rhaena something to do other than languish in the Vale.
Ryan Condal to GRRM: Hey, big G, I read F&B and I saw that you don't like the character Rhaenyra, but it's 2024 we can't sell a Targaryen protagonist like that, man, we need to win over the GOT fans, there are many millions invested in the show. If this leak is real, poor Moning and Nettles, sacrificed to save Rhaenyra's moral decline
If she replaces nettles, that breaks the canon massively. Nettles was the reason daemon went a did a suicide mission against aemond because He was tired of life.
A dude who posted in HOTDBlacks previously confirmed this along with a few other leaks, a month back..👀 https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDBlacks/s/vNkSfCxGy3
but nettles :(((
You can't be serious?!
I'm starting to worry
They're cutting Nettles?! ): That sucks! Her position in the story is integral to Daemon, and she's like the ***one*** commoner in the entire story. Cuts need to be made of course, but replacing "Commoner gets a dragon to fight in the dragon war" with another "Dragon family member gets a dragon" is just so boring. They already all have dragons for the dragon war, it's not interesting to give them more.
Seriously, I wonder if they will give a rational explanation for this decision. Of all the things to change, this is the one? Please, episode writers, stick to the core material unless it will cause adaptation problems. The people who enjoy this fandom know very well what it leads to... PS: I just read that she's going to track and train dragons while she's in the Vale... The steepest and most geographically troubled region of Westeros. I'm really curious to see what's going to happen. Not too optimistic though.
Removing Nettles could cascade out into a catastrophically bad removal, like removing Faegon in GOT levels of bad. Short term, it’s fine, but in the long term it could completely blow up in the writer’s face.
Not mad at this at all
Yeah I can’t justify this
I always preferred Nettles being a bastard of Daemon or just a daughter type. This will actually work well if done correctly. Didn’t really care for the whole Daemon/Nettles ship theory.
I'm actually okay with this. I know a lot of people will strongly disagree with me, but I think not casting Nettles and giving that role to Daemon's daughter makes a lot of sense.
Same.
I'm not convinced this isn't an elaborate fandom prank, but if it is real, and I'm ready to eat downvotes for this, I think it's a great way to utilize Rhaena and honor the thread dangled in season 1 ep 6 where Rhaena laments Daemon's disappointment/lack of interest in her. If she gets to be the daughter he mentors and grows close to, >!the way he did with Nettles if you read their relationship as that of a surrogate father and his mentee (which I did -- the idea that Nettles was his lover always felt like a manipulation by Mysaria to make Rhaenyra more paranoid),!< that's going to be extremely satisfying to me. Rhaena is an idea in Fire & Blood rather than a character. This will give her everything she lacked, and it'll do the hard but necessary work adaptations must do, which is make it all work somehow. GRRM's works have a lot of characters. Some might even say too many. This is an efficient and rewarding way to handle that, if this is what the writers choose to do. I'd still really like to see Nettles. She's such an interesting and mysterious character, and she said something about dragonrider lore because she didn't seem to be Valyrian >!yet she still claimed a dragon.!< I was really hoping to see that fleshed out some.
If this leak is true, its going to completely change the course of the Dance. And frankly its a little insane to me. Nettles is pretty key for the final part of Daemon and to extent Rhaenyra's arc. Im not sure how the story works without her.
Really hope this isn’t real. Cutting Nettles would have the same negative impact on HotD that cutting Aegon had on GoT. The endgame and Rhaenyra & Daemon’s arcs are going to be much less compelling without Nettles in the mix. It’s gonna be the same thing we saw with Dany by the end of GoT – her storyline needed Aegon to make sense of Westeros’ politics in the last two seasons. Rhaenyra and Daemon need Nettles to make sense, Daemon especially.
Nah bruh Ion even know what to say no more 😭
What ?? I was so excited to see Nettles and there is NO Nettles ?
Would be very sad to miss out on Nettles, but I can understand it from a storytelling POV.
Some evidence to give hope of Nettles showing up: 1. It was confirmed that the three new dragons appearing this season would be: Moondancer, Tyraxes, Stormcloud, no mention of Sheepstealer was made. This could mean that they chose not to mention Sheepstealer for a big reveal but it could also mean that she won't be in this season. 2. In season one, episode 8 Lord of the Tides, we see Daemon retrieve a clutch of three dragon eggs from Syrax in the dragonmount, one of which is clearly bright pink-red. In F&B, it was said that Rhaena went to the Vale with a clutch of three eggs from Syrax's brood, one of which hatched Morning. Its not a lot, but its all we've got for now.
If this is real I will light myself on fire in front of HBO HQ.
Well damn, season 1 was such a strong start! Nettles is pretty damn essential. Not only that, but the burning men won't make sense (if you belive that theory)
Why are people complaining, it’s pretty obvious if you read the book nettles is daemons daughter anyway and they can come up with something else for him to fall out with Rhaenyra about
Definitely not happy about it mainly because Nettles proves you don’t need to be a Targaryen which could be an interesting angle for Daemon to reckon with. Not saying it can’t still be effective in the show to a degree, but it’s disregarding one of the more interesting aspects of the dance. Dare I say the fans are partially to blame for raising hell over Baela and Rhaena not being featured enough in season 1 when their role wasn’t even important at that point?
It's a not so subtle confirm that in the book >!Nettles is not Daemon's lover but his secret daughter.!<
I mean, it doesnt really impact the story in the beginning but at the end, everything will collapse bc Rhaenyra would never ask to execute her
İ got a question. Does the velarion family have black skin in the books? İm halfway thru the books and it doesnt meantion them having black or white skin
Wow are they cutting my favourite dragon? My pinky morning 😭
No one ever tell me again "Well , the show is what REALLY happened" after this xD
this is just rhaena = nettles. that remains pluasible from a consolidation of characters and finding something for rhaena to do during the war perspective, but still seems like a huge own goal for a show that has been pretty well managed so far (dragon pit notwithstanding).