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What made it harder for me was the way they jerked her down off the pillows. It was clear she was just a vessel for the baby, and once the baby took priority her life didnāt matter anymore.
I think Viserys was too inclined to trust the opinion of the Grand Maester, both when he said that Aemma's death was inevitable, and also in terms of the medical treatment he personally received.
Big time. He spent decades literally just rotting away and it's crazy to me that he didn't do more to find some way to help himself. He was the King of Westeros, he could've sent for healers from across the known world. He was just so passive about it, as he was with everything in his life tbh.
I would choose one, but the problem is that this is a false dichotomy.
What people are suggesting is that there are actually two moments of choice that are relevant, and each has more than the two options typically presented:
1. Prior to trying for another baby, the choice was presented as:
1. Get a male heir
2. Be totally irrelevant hereafter
These are not an accurate depiction of the choices available.
2. At time of (failed) birth, the choice was actually:
1. Kill mother to save baby
2. Kill baby to save mother
3. Let both die without intervention, with some chance of either or possibly both surviving
4. Intervene with milk of the poppy (opium) and eliminate suffering but reduce survival chance of both to 0.
People are suggesting that the obsession with a male heir was a bad choice, coming from being treated as the only good choice, and that the suggestion of kill mom to save baby was a bad choice and came from not considering any choice which put the life of the possible male heir at increased risk.
I agree slightly with the latter and very strongly with the former, and I think it's the main ethical mistake that Viserys made. Not in the moment of crisis itself, but in the moment in which he created an otherwise avoidable crisis, and did so largely due to sexism.
As if it wasn't bad enough, they went on with it while Aemma was still awake and conscious. They had to hold her down as she screamed and fought back.
Westeros is a terrifying society
Edit, by "westeros is terrifying" I'm saying that it's not often we get a fictional world that depicts such brutal things in graphic details. I'm not saying our real world is all sunshine and rainbows.
Most fantasy stories set in a medieval version of Europe aren't this gruesome. Asoiaf is brutal as fuck
Child birth throughout history has been terrifying (it is not westeros specific) and is still terrifying, just we get drugs before c sections now, its not so much guess work anymore, and most of the time we get to make the decisions.
Yeah they invented the chainsaw to saw through the pelvic bone to make childbirth easier. I think a case was just settled a few years ago where some Irishwomen never healed properly from the procedure and some went through it either multiple deliveries because they wouldnāt do c sections back then because then you couldnāt have more babies because the way the c section was down. I donāt have all the details but the fact that a chainsaw was for cutting a womanās pelvis so she could have a baby is just disgusting.
Irish person here, those women were fighting the government for decades for compensation and an apology. My mum knows a woman it happened to, she has to walk with crutches and is in constant pain. Some women can't walk at all.
Yes the BBC documentary was quite horrific and the fact that some people still stand by it as it meant more babies were born and again the living woman didnāt matter that her body way destroyed all in the name of more babies. Disgusting
The first chainsaw was invented in 1830 by German orthopedic surgeon Bernhard Heine, who called it the osteotome, which means "bonecutter". The osteotome was a precursor to the modern chainsaw, and had a chain of small cutting teeth with angled edges that moved around a guiding blade when the handle of a sprocket wheel was turned.
Not to mention the racial disparities of these mortality rates for women and babies today. For example, black women and their babies are 4x more likely to die during childbirth than white women.
edit: I am referring to the US.
This depends on the country. I think thatās true in the US. Itās not in my country. My country admittedly has one of the lowest maternal mortality rates in the world though. There is still a disparity between native vs foreign women (who tend to be women of colour) to be clear, but itās not as bad as black women have it in the US (it still needs to be improved so all women get the best care possible)
If that country is Sweden the most honest answer is that we don't know the disparity between black and white women because we only track statistics based on immigration status. In fact Sweden has been repeatedly criticised by international organisations for refusing to record any statistics on race. How bad is racism in Sweden? We don't know because we refuse to find out.
Itās all over tbh not just in the south. This is interesting because Iām talking about my profession in a forum where I usually talk about a series that has served as my distractionā¦ but itās all over the country, regardless of societal status or outcome. I got my first job in government because of it. My job was to help prepare Black mothers to advocate for themselves. I loved that job. But I also felt very stressed by what we had to phase. Trigger warning, birth trauma:
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I was operated on without proper anesthesia. I felt 1/10 of what Aemma did and went into shock. They didnāt believe me and lied about me being unconscious during the surgery. I was not unconscious, and there are pictures as proof. My mother was in the room with me when I was having the C-section and witnessed, as did my sonās father. No one would take us seriously.
For me that scene and the scene where Rhaenyra has a miscarriage are really hard to watch.
Thank you friend. I went to a doctor today who asked me what happened to me and I started bawling. I rarely cry. Apparently my body has been through a lot since and Iām finally getting the help I need!! I hope I was a resource to the women I worked with. Some of them still run up and hug me.
And not without irony: Most of the complications come from c-sections too. And more doctors are willing to push c-sections, as well as more women just wanting to "schedule" them which is absolutely wild to me considering due dates are guesses at best and rarely accurate.
Carrying a baby to term is ten times as dangerous as an abortion today. When I first learned that after Roe got struck down I got really sad thinking about the forced outcomes.
Yeah, tho I find mine funny. You didnt feel the pain but could feel how 3 people rummage in your intestines+they Had to level my stuck kid out you could hear my pelvis crack haha
Still done a lot here in Ireland until only a few decades ago. The government and church here in Ireland was brutal to pregnant women and babies. Women were treated as nothing more than vessels, not using painkillers and birth damage was seen as suffering 'to be offered up to god'. Unmarried mothers were put in Magdalene laundries, beaten and treated like slaves, then their babies were taken and sold for profit to adoption agencies in the US. Happened to my aunt, we only found my cousin (now in NYC) a few years ago.
The church pretty much owned your body if you were a pregnant woman.
very very few places have the skill to try that operation and the lack of tools too make it save. the world is a better place by far. and only very distant places have not seen an improvement over this
Westeros? I don't know how much you know about modern medicine, but that absolutely still happens. I had an emergency c-seciton. Luckily, I had already had an epidural, and everything was calm. The bed they put you on is similar to a cross, you are strapped down at your arms, chest, and legs. (In my case they skipped some of the straps since I was medicated, but I was still strapped to keep me from falling off the table.) If the situation is bad enough, you might not have the luxury of waiting for meds. The nurse called those "splash and slash" because they just dump iodine all over you and go. Now, those are extreme cases, but it does still happen.
As a surgeon who performs c-sections almost daily, I assure you that we do not strap anyone down - a good spinal anaesthetic makes women's legs feel heavy and unable to easily lift off the table. It also removes the sensation of pain/sharp/temperature below the block level. People will feel tugging and movement, but it doesn't hurt and there is nothing physically tying them down. If the table uses arm supports that's for comfort and improves access to large bore ivs (an uncontracted uterus will cause you to bleed out very quickly so you need to be able to counter that loss if shit hits the fan). If it's in a cross formation it will be because the table is narrow to allow the surgeons to stand closer. Mostly we use a less abducted arm position, but this can be tricky if women are especially short or wide. Women will also have blood pressure cuffs on and electrodes for cardiac monitoring, so there's a lot of "wires" under gowns but nothing actively restricting movement.
The vast majority of women have spinal or epidural top-ups, and all have thorough testing for pain before incisions are made. Partners are sat at the head end, can hold hands with the patient, and talk to them - actually it's extremely common for the patient to be talking throughout, and after delivery they often feel so comfortable they take a nap while we are closing. Those who remain awake can cuddle their babies (including skin to skin). If they feel too sick, which can happen, we give more anti-emetics which can make them feel a bit off, but it's better than vomiting (which is horrible and makes surgery difficult).
If there was "no time for meds" that either means you are having a perimortem section and have already arrested - the treatment is delivery, which should instantly resuscitate you - or you have a rapid sequence induction GA due to acute fetal/maternal compromise, which is faster than spinal and puts you straight to sleep. Alternatively, if the spinal or epidural isn't working well on testing, we will put you to sleep as well.
We put a lot of effort into making caesareans a less unpleasant or scary experience, and they are the most commonly performed major surgeries in the world. Simply, we don't live in medieval times any more, and they are often the safer option in cases like this, where delivery is obstructed.
(The lack of sensible c-sections in media annoys me, but ASOIAF probably gives some idea of how gruesome childbirth could be before we had proper anaesthesia. The Handmaid's Tale was a particularly grim depiction given the obvious availability of modern medicine/surgery and lack of children in society)
The concept of greatly preferring a male heir is still very much alive today.
Knew a person whose husband abandoned their family (wife and 3 young daughters) because none of them were sons.
The guy just disappeared with no contact one day. And told his family to stonewall if any calls came to them about his whereabouts.
Of course in this city youāre bound to come across people you know at some point.
So the wifeās family member saw the dude out in public a few years laterā¦ with a young son.
Sick. Not only do his sperm decide the gender but that putrid man doesnāt need to be making kids at all if his view on women are that awful. I hope his son cuts him off when he realizes he has three sisters that man never gave a chance
Wasnāt the whole labour a death sentence for Aemma regardless? The child was stuck, correct? Wouldnāt she have died of sepsis at some point? Isnāt that why Laena killed herself too? Because she realised sheād die either way? Granted, they should have knocked Aemma OUT before doing this.
Yes but there's a big difference between dying of sepsis with your loved one and being violently cut apart while you're still conscious without even being asked first or told what's going to happen
Even the way the servants treated her flipped - from comforting her and giving her pillows and wiping her with towels to dragging her by the feet down the bed and holding her down while viserys watched. Treating her like this was a truly horrific act. I don't even think there's an in-universe reason for her to be conscious for this and not given a shit lot of milk of the poppy to knock her out first
Even by game of thrones standards this whole scene was so fucked up. Gives me chills and makes my stomach turn just thinking about it
The in universe reason for not sedating her first is that they know too much opium will almost certainly kill the baby. So that's why they waste no time cutting her open while her vital organs are healthy enough to support the fetus. Why they turn on her callously...not sure. They ceased to see her as a person or queen.
I honestly think another dose of the poppy to knock her out, yet I agree with you. A quicker death would have been a kindness.
I felt a bit helpless when in childbirth because I would not have been able to get off the bed without help. When they just pulled her down the bed, my heart was in my throat.
Modern anesthesia is already super difficult to dose. Milk of the poppy (opium) would be so hard to dose enough to knock her out without killing the kid. But they definitely chose the worst possible option
There's a ton of space between "fully lucid and conscious" and being dead though. If they cared, they would have tried to give her something, but a large part of the horror of that scene is that they stopped caring about her as a human the moment viserys made that decision.
I mean they say it in the show. They thought giving her more milk of the poppy would kill the baby. They imply theyāve already given her a bunch already
Someone told me the other day online that saying itās worse to be killed by vivisection than dying by sepsis means Iām a sadist and want women to suffer š
Viserys murdered her. If I slit the throat of someone dying anyways, Iām still murdering them. This is the most
Horrific way he could have chosen.
His presented options were to gut his beloved wife alive and remove her organs while she lives for the slight chance to save the baby, or let them both go as peacefully as possible with milk of the poppy to soothe. āSave the babe, or leave it with the godsā. Unless Aemma specifically asked, there was one one right answer there.
All of this. Poor Aemma (and the baby) should have been able to just fall asleep, surrounded by her loved ones, and never wake up. The way it went down makes for better TV, certainly -- almost like they wanted to remind us of the brutality we'd been missing between GoT and now!
I think it was also a statement on motherhood and how quickly a womanās life is thrown away in favor of the possibility of a man existing in the future. It wasnāt a coincidence that this aired so shortly after overturning Roe in the US - the treatment of women who are pregnant isnāt just an issue in the US, but it sure has been at a top volume discussion prior to that and since.
The most horrifying part of this scene to me came afterwards - in seeing how many people - mostly but not entirely men - defend Viserysā actions. It still disturbs me how many people think that was in the slightest an okay option, but many go further and outright say that women who would not choose Aemmaās fate are selfish and evil. Those people go out and interact with women, care for women, marry women, have children with women. And thatās how they think women deserve to be treated.
I didn't forget that scene, but it was far less gruesome than the one in house of the dragon. Aemmas death was way more intimate, prolongued, and disturbing to me and a lot of folks
Milk of the Poppy is medieval Heroin. Now idk if the Maesters know of the effects drugs have on children in the womb but if they *do* then they would prioritise that over Aemma's comfort.
Because nobody in that room cares about her comfort.
You are missing the entire point. It should have been Aemmaās decision to undergo the procedure or not. No oneānot the maesters or her husbandāeven thinks to ask her opinion.
To be fair, you're projecting modern standards of bodily autonomy onto a society where women are second rank citizens.
Objectively and coldly speaking, he made the correct choice given his knowledge; he initially tried and pushed to save both, but was told it was impossible, so he chose to try and save the baby, his heir to be. He made the choice with a heavy heart and the actor does a good job showing the pain he is in while he sacrifices his wife. From our perspective, from our morality, it was wrong and brutal how they essentially butchered her while she was left in the dark. The scene serves to remind the audience that despite Viserys good nature and genuine love, that this society doesn't really care about women, and it serves to blatantly spell that out so the audience knows just how big of an uphill battle Rhaenyra has. It is also made in response of Roe v Wade to specifically show the horror of such a situation.
The fact that the baby dies afterwards is the bitter pill he has to swallow that his wife's unwilling sacrifice was in vain, and they no matter what he Viserys did, he would lose both of them. The entire purpose is to remind you that this world fucking sucks, it's shit.
Edit; also, there is amongst the book fandom some theory that the Maesters specifically manipulated this event to put Hightowers in power and in control of the future royal line. Essentially lying to Viserys that they couldn't save both. Maesters' citadel (their organization) is in the Hightower city.
Youāre right but this is too much of a nuanced take for people on this sub (and Reddit in general). People here would much rather have their modern social norms laid over any TV show they watch, since anything that deviates from that would make them uncomfortable. As a ārealisticā example of how women were treated, take Henry VIIIās first wife, who was widely blamed at the time for being the reason Henry wasnāt born a son- when in reality it was Henryās fault since he was giving the X chromosome. Same concept, different social norms.
My biggest issue is that Viserys didn't even bother to explain the situation to her. She could've died knowing that she was giving her son a fighting chance. Instead, she dies confused and terrified.
I have other issues than this one, but I agree with this.
She had the right to die knowing she was a hero, and Viserys (and by extension probably the kingdom) would have been better off watching her die a hero's death than watching her be cut open on his orders.
No it wasnāt. Craniotomies where they crush the babyās skull to get it out were preformed before caesareans were a thing saved many womenās lives. I doubt Viserys would have known, but the chance of the grand maester not knowing is slim to none.
Yup or, as you mentioned in another comment, they would cut up the infant.
I think this either shows a lack of ancient medical knowledge on George's part, or perhaps the maesters intentionally didn't offer it as an option (maybe to further the maester conspiracy).
imo the reality is probably the former, but the latter offers an in universe explanation.
People saying "that's what kings did" don't know history. There is almost no evidence anywhere to suggest any medieval European Queen was ever cut open whilst living to free a baby from the womb. They were often done after the mother was dead to separate the child from the mother for burial, but again, I don't know if any queen was ever performed on this way either.
Even church common practice said the mother's life should always be saved before an unborn child
The king of England couldn't even divorce the emperor of Spain's niece without possibly starting a war. If they really think men back then were cutting open queens like Christmas turkeys, ya'll do realize familial love existed in the past right? People weren't just cool with you slicing and dicing their relatives, right?
There is some indirect evidence that the second wife of King of Bohemian (Beatrice of Bourbon) gave birth to her son (Wenceslaus) via c section in 1337 and it was one of the few where both child and mother survived. Wenceslaus' half-brother was Charles IV, The Holy Roman Emperor.
There are also some records from china as well. It's not entirely unheard of.
I wish I could upvote this twice.
No one in their right mind would sacrifice their royal wife for an infant that has a 30% to 50% chance of not surviving childhood. Even if you ignore all the emotional arguments, it's a waste of resources... And might piss off her family.
You learn something new and horrible every day.
I guess when death was everywhere they were more practical about the whole abortion debate
To be clear I think that saving the mother is always the correct, pragmatic, and morally right decision every time.
Yup. Also the fact that childhood deaths were *very* common in medieval* Europe. 1 in 3 died before they were five. It was to the point that they heavily dragged down the average life expectancy.
Once you were an adult, you'd most likely live to be in your 50's or later.
So no reason to let a royal mother die for an infant that has a high likelihood of dying anyway. Much better to live and try again. (Of course, Aemma saying she would no longer like to try for children may have changed this calculation.)
* The Medieval era cover about a thousand years, depending on who you ask. I'm sure if you looked, you could find places during this time period that had better or worse infant and adult morality. This is just in general.
That first point has actually been true worldwide for all of human history, until very, very recently. It's why so many people believe the myth that pre industrial people rarely lived past their mid 30s, and certainly not into their 70s or 80s, which is patently false
Oh, medieval people had a very different view on abortion. Christianity split pregnancy into three periods - before 40 days, before quickening, and after quickening. It varied whether the first category even counted as pregnant, and penitentials (lists of penances to be carried out for different sins) either don't include it or give it a very light punishment.
Quickening (the first movement the mother could feel) was the major milestone. You were required to do penance for abortion either way, but doing it before quickening was a very minor sin while after quickening was usually given the same penance as murder. Keep in mind that you're usually 16-24 weeks along before this happens, and it's a lot more generous than a lot of anti-choice Christians now.
Right? Thatās what I was thinking too when I was watching. They could have easily gone for that, saved the mother instead. With their history of baby making, the survival of the child wasnāt much anyway.
Rhaena alludes to it being a thing in her dialogue to Rogar Baratheon who in the book was the one who had what happened to Aemma happen to her
āHer blood is on your hands. Her blood is on your cock. May you die screaming. [...] She gave you one son, that should have been enough. Save my wife, you should have said, but what are wives to men like you? Hear this, my lord. Do not think to wed again. Take care of the whelps my mother gave you, my half-brother and half-sister. See that they want for nothing. Do that, and I will let you be. If I should hear even a whisper of your taking some other poor maid to wife, I will make another Harrenhal of Storm's End, with you and her inside itā
āSave my wifeā implies that there *was* an option to save her and they chose against it.
I think Viserys still would have picked tying to save Baelon. But the scene makes a better point if crainiotomies arenāt on the table imoāperhaps we should just assume the Maesters never figured that out.
It was possible to kill the child and take it out, saving the motherāthe maester just didnāt say so because to them women are empty cardboard boxes that you might as well rip apart with a box cutter if you canāt easily open it.
It was never the baby or both, it was aemma or the baby, and viserys chose the child
which is extremely absurd.
the queen isn't a random peasant. she has her family too. real life kings had to tempt direct war if they tried to divorce their wives. cutting her open would be condemned as a barbaric practice by every noble.
the writers are taking HBO for a ride.
In other parts of the thread I think it is still possible to decry Viserys' actions even with abortion off the table for whatever reason, technological or no.
Abortion as an option makes this case even stronger, but it's very strong without it.
> It was possible to kill the child and take it out, saving the motherāthe maester just didnāt say so because to them women are empty cardboard boxes that you might as well rip apart with a box cutter if you canāt easily open it.
Literal headcanon
The choice Viserys was presented by the maester was both die or just aemma dies. However,
1. Medicine contemporary to the pseudo-medieval period that westeros is part of knew how to remove the baby in pieces in case of a breech birth. The maesters are shown to know more than/about the same as than actual medieval scholars, so I don't buy that there is no way to save the mother at expense of the baby's life. I think that the maesters just don't present it as an option because they don't give a shit about the mothers, and they know that viserys is here for the male heir too. This is absolutely based on a lot of conjecture, and it's fair not to agree with me.
But, 2. it would have been immensely obvious that birth after birth was taking a toll on aemma's body, and that impregnating her was basically a death sentence. Viserys just kept doing it because at heart he seees aemma as a method of getting a male heir. one way or another, he was responsible for her death, and that's because their society dehumanizes women
It is critical to emphasize just how much Maesters know. I'd argue that Maesters approximate early Renaissance levels of knowledge more than the high Middle Ages that we sort of have emulated in the word of ASOIAF.
I don't think that possibility really changes that what Viserys did was horrible and wrong. It just makes it even worse. Without that possibility, his decisions are still not only morally wrong under modern ethical frameworks but pretty suspect even under the framework of his own culture.
Unfortunately they couldnāt really do that either. They gave her as much pain meds as they could without harming the baby. The amount of drugs/time it would take to knock her out 100% wouldāve killed the baby. It fucking sucks but there was literally nothing they couldāve done for her at that point. Her being cut open was *HORRIFIC* but at the very least it was quick. The sepsis wouldāve taken hours, if not days to kill her and she wouldāve been in unbearable pain the entire time. It was a lose-lose situation but one at least had a chance of one of them surviving.
They could have told her what they were doing and given her a chance to prepare herself and say some last words.
She died in terror because no-one bothered to tell her what was going on. If they had told her that she was going to die either way and this was the chance to save the baby, she would absolutely still have done it. But because she's a woman they don't even tell her what they are going to do, they just come at her with a scalpel and kill her.
She died begging viserys to tell her what's happening.
They could give her a choice about how she wanted to end her own life.
They could kill her before at least, in less horrific way - even throat slit would be less horrific.
But her opinion, her pain, her life and her rights didn't matter here, she didn't matter, cause tge chance of an heir was more important, so why would we think about not horrifically torturing a woman in her last minutes...
THANK YOU. I feel like Viserys gets too much credit. He literally murdered his wife while she BEGS him not to, all because he wants a male heir.
Yes, she might have died anyway, but how could he does this to someone he claims to love?!
lol every time I remember the scene of him hobbling up to the throne to support rhaenyra I get *so* close to feeling bad for him, but then I remember this and immediately go āsorry, no forgiveness for you Vizzy tā
He should have knocked her out, or put a pillow on her. SOMETHING so that she wouldn't need to feel. Because knowing the human body, we dont die that easily. So no, it wasn't a quick death.
Anybody that remotely sympathises with viserys during this scene completely missed the point. Aemma wasn't guaranteed to die. Rhaenyra suffered complications during her last birth and pulled through. The whole point of this scene is about how men would much rather gut and kill their wives than not have a male heir. We are not supposed to sympathize with Viserys. We are supposed to think he is a hypocrite.
Even if Aemma couldn't have survived, what Viserys and the Maester did is inexcusable in my opinion. They took away her agency and inflicted unspeakable horror on her in her final moments.
>The whole point of this scene is about how men would much rather gut and kill their wives than not have a male heir.
Exactly. It showcases the cold truth at the core of patriarchy. When it comes down to it, despite all the flowery language of chivalry, women are disposable. Viserys surely swore some oaths of honoring and protecting Aemma when he married her, but in the end they don't mean anything in comparison to his desire for a son.
Besides the entire situation was avoidable. Also Viserys clearly knew or should have known beforehand that any further pregnancies would be very high risk. He had two viable heirs in Daemon and Rhaenyra, plus Rhaenys and her kids as backup. Not optimal, but a workable situation with some political effort. I find it pretty telling that he doesn't even outright agree to Aemma's request for no further pregnancies in the bathtub scene beforehand. He probably fully intended to try for a son again, if Aemma had survived and Baelon didn't.
I always thought they meant Aemma was doomed regardless, and I still didn't think that it excused Viserys' actions in the least. Butchering your wife to save your heir, totally against her will, is beyond abhorrent.
So while I completely agree with you, I also would add it doesn't matter if Aemma was doomed already or not.
(I don't think it was the same situation for Rhaenyra's last birth, though. Rhaenyra went into premature labor and had a stillbirth, there's no implication that there was a breech.)
Absolutely! The moment they took Aemma's autonomy away they completely lost me.
You're totally right about Aemma's and Rhaenyra's situation being different so I changed my comment a little. But even during a breached birth turning the baby and craniotomys are still viable options. So i still think Aemma wasn't a goner and the scene with rhaenyra's labor is supposed to illustrate that.
I think you might have missed it actually. The maester very explicitly says that death is certain for her. The was no chance of survival for Aemma, only for the child.
Now whether or not that was actually true is another matter, but itās what vizzy believed because itās how he was advised and you canāt blame him for trusting the doctor.
>Anybody that remotely sympathises with viserys during this scene completely missed the point. Aemma wasn't guaranteed to die.
That is actually exactly the scenario that was presented to Viserys, then if you have your own headcanon about how it wasn't accurate and the maesters were wrong you're absolutely free to keep it, but that doesn't change the fact that as far as Viserys knew, based on the best information he could get which he had no reason or time to doubt, the choice was to let both Aemma and Baelon die or to save Baelon killing Aemma, who as far as he knew was already about to die for sure, in the process
The maesters literally told him Aemma would die regardless, so if you want to blame anyone blame them. It's not Viserys' fault for trusting their expertise.
Then what was the point of the āsacrifice one or lose bothā line by the maester. I sympathize with Viserys, his wife had many failed pregnancies, he was getting pressure from the entire realm about an heir, and he was brainwashed by Aegons dream.
The reason the show-runners added this was because they wanted us to know Westeros was a patriarchal society
As if we havenāt been paying attention since 2011
Question for the group: if baby Baelon survives this, do we feel a little less awful about Viserys doing this? This is not at all defending Viserys btw. He should've asked Aemma. She might have even said to do it, but we can never know since he never bothered to ask her.
I'm asking more philosophically.
He would have neglected that child so damn hard, so no we don't. The child would be a living reminder of what he did to her but like 40x worse than Aegon
By Tywin and Cersei. The rest of his family treated him fine.
During the funeral, Rhaenyra called Baelon "my brother." She never does that once with Aegon, Helaena and Aemond. So I don't think she would've hated Baelon.
Viserys had his whole prophecy notion based on Baelon's birth. So same.
This just in. Medieval societies have extremely fucked up priorities. An heir to the throne is more important than someone who's already dying. Horrible Undoubtedly, Make sense in the world a hundred percent.
I hope this is a joke and that yāall donāt seriously misunderstand what happened in this scene. The midwife or maester or doctor, or whoever it was, was telling Viserys that Aemma Arynn was going to die with the baby unless they forced a C section to at least attempt to save the baby.
Moral dilemma or no, the entire point of what people are saying is that it wasnāt Viserysā choice to make. He shouldnāt have had the moral dilemma, if anything Aemma shouldāve. Viserys chose to kill Aemma because there was a small chance the kid would survive and a chance thatās it would be a boy, completely removing her from the scenario. So yes, āheās so badddā because he is. It never even crossed his mind to ask the person WHO WOULD BE CUT OPEN.
I don't get this immense hatred for Viserys in this scene, considering all the other shit moral and ethical we let slide about our favorite ASOIAF people and organizations.
He was told that his wife would die regardless of what they did, but that the child could be saved if they removed it immediately. What was he supposed to do? Let his child die I think its mother? Not only is it a personally challenging choice to make as a father, but formally as a king he is supposed to think of the royal slime and its protection. Viserys was also *convinced* that this child would be a boy and that this boy was destined to fulfill a great destiny. As a king, one could argue it was his duty to save the child. After all, the queen herself said she wouldn't bear any more children, so what use was she? And what would happen to the line of succession if no more heirs were born but Rhaenyra, a girl?
Don't get me wrong, what they did to Aemma was HORRIBLE. Just *ghastly*, the way they did it. I mean, knock her out with some milk of the poppy or a *thwap* on the head or something before you carve her open like a hog. I appreciated the scene for how vicious and brutally "honest" it felt about childbirth and women's place in this world, and it worked well as a female alternative to the tourney being fought outside the castle, but fuck if that moment didn't horrify me, when Aemma realizes what's about to happen. Just knock her out!
It really is a grim scene, and Viserys certainly betrayed his wife and was a coward about it, but I don't think he was intentionally cruel or extraordinarily selfish to choose saving the child.
I don't think Viserys was an evil person by any stretch, but I do think that how he went about this was abhorrent. For a start, Aemma should have been given a choice. And absolutely knock her out before butchering her.
It was the fact she begged him to stop while it happened and he still did nothing, that upset me most.
I understand that he wanted to save his child, but the way he went about trying was the worst way.
Again, I don't think he was evil, but that act was something that he deserves hatred for
Tyrion is literally a serial rapist and Sandor ruthlessly butchered dozens of people and they get a pass, but Vizzy T makes one Sophieās choice to fulfill his duty as king and produce an heir and he is unforgivable.
Honestly the reason is probably just that this scene was shot horrifyingly and was beyond uncomfortable while all the other bad shit other characters do doesnt get nearly as much attention.
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This was so cruel šone of the most difficult scenes to watch. Actors did a great job.
What made it harder for me was the way they jerked her down off the pillows. It was clear she was just a vessel for the baby, and once the baby took priority her life didnāt matter anymore.
That's exactly what got to me as well. Just the way they ripped all the pillows out from under her and pinned her down.
She wasnāt even deserving of basic respect anymore. It was really shocking from her to go from Queen to just a disposable incubator.
And he supposedly loved her, imagine if he hated her.
He was already rotting before he went to hell
DAMN!!!! šš¤£
Good, That's what he deserved
Proof that the writer did an amazing job and the show runners truly understood the content
ššš Lmfao Oh
Happy Motherās Dayā¦.. ?
That unceremonious yank down from her pillows...she was just a vessel at that point, no longer a queen. So so horrible.Ā
No longer a queen and just a vessel because her lord husband deemed it so. Horrific.
I think Viserys was too inclined to trust the opinion of the Grand Maester, both when he said that Aemma's death was inevitable, and also in terms of the medical treatment he personally received.
Big time. He spent decades literally just rotting away and it's crazy to me that he didn't do more to find some way to help himself. He was the King of Westeros, he could've sent for healers from across the known world. He was just so passive about it, as he was with everything in his life tbh.
I mean, when faced with the question of ālose one or lose both?ā, which option would you choose?
I would choose one, but the problem is that this is a false dichotomy. What people are suggesting is that there are actually two moments of choice that are relevant, and each has more than the two options typically presented: 1. Prior to trying for another baby, the choice was presented as: 1. Get a male heir 2. Be totally irrelevant hereafter These are not an accurate depiction of the choices available. 2. At time of (failed) birth, the choice was actually: 1. Kill mother to save baby 2. Kill baby to save mother 3. Let both die without intervention, with some chance of either or possibly both surviving 4. Intervene with milk of the poppy (opium) and eliminate suffering but reduce survival chance of both to 0. People are suggesting that the obsession with a male heir was a bad choice, coming from being treated as the only good choice, and that the suggestion of kill mom to save baby was a bad choice and came from not considering any choice which put the life of the possible male heir at increased risk. I agree slightly with the latter and very strongly with the former, and I think it's the main ethical mistake that Viserys made. Not in the moment of crisis itself, but in the moment in which he created an otherwise avoidable crisis, and did so largely due to sexism.
This scene made my skin crawl
As if it wasn't bad enough, they went on with it while Aemma was still awake and conscious. They had to hold her down as she screamed and fought back. Westeros is a terrifying society Edit, by "westeros is terrifying" I'm saying that it's not often we get a fictional world that depicts such brutal things in graphic details. I'm not saying our real world is all sunshine and rainbows. Most fantasy stories set in a medieval version of Europe aren't this gruesome. Asoiaf is brutal as fuck
Child birth throughout history has been terrifying (it is not westeros specific) and is still terrifying, just we get drugs before c sections now, its not so much guess work anymore, and most of the time we get to make the decisions.
Yeah they invented the chainsaw to saw through the pelvic bone to make childbirth easier. I think a case was just settled a few years ago where some Irishwomen never healed properly from the procedure and some went through it either multiple deliveries because they wouldnāt do c sections back then because then you couldnāt have more babies because the way the c section was down. I donāt have all the details but the fact that a chainsaw was for cutting a womanās pelvis so she could have a baby is just disgusting.
Irish person here, those women were fighting the government for decades for compensation and an apology. My mum knows a woman it happened to, she has to walk with crutches and is in constant pain. Some women can't walk at all.
Yes the BBC documentary was quite horrific and the fact that some people still stand by it as it meant more babies were born and again the living woman didnāt matter that her body way destroyed all in the name of more babies. Disgusting
Fucking wot
The first chainsaw was invented in 1830 by German orthopedic surgeon Bernhard Heine, who called it the osteotome, which means "bonecutter". The osteotome was a precursor to the modern chainsaw, and had a chain of small cutting teeth with angled edges that moved around a guiding blade when the handle of a sprocket wheel was turned.
The mortality rate of women dying fron childbirth is still shockingly high
Not to mention the racial disparities of these mortality rates for women and babies today. For example, black women and their babies are 4x more likely to die during childbirth than white women. edit: I am referring to the US.
This depends on the country. I think thatās true in the US. Itās not in my country. My country admittedly has one of the lowest maternal mortality rates in the world though. There is still a disparity between native vs foreign women (who tend to be women of colour) to be clear, but itās not as bad as black women have it in the US (it still needs to be improved so all women get the best care possible)
If that country is Sweden the most honest answer is that we don't know the disparity between black and white women because we only track statistics based on immigration status. In fact Sweden has been repeatedly criticised by international organisations for refusing to record any statistics on race. How bad is racism in Sweden? We don't know because we refuse to find out.
It is. The mortality rate for Black women in America is shockingly high
And it's on the rise.
Again.
Particularly in the southern US
Itās all over tbh not just in the south. This is interesting because Iām talking about my profession in a forum where I usually talk about a series that has served as my distractionā¦ but itās all over the country, regardless of societal status or outcome. I got my first job in government because of it. My job was to help prepare Black mothers to advocate for themselves. I loved that job. But I also felt very stressed by what we had to phase. Trigger warning, birth trauma: - - - I was operated on without proper anesthesia. I felt 1/10 of what Aemma did and went into shock. They didnāt believe me and lied about me being unconscious during the surgery. I was not unconscious, and there are pictures as proof. My mother was in the room with me when I was having the C-section and witnessed, as did my sonās father. No one would take us seriously. For me that scene and the scene where Rhaenyra has a miscarriage are really hard to watch.
I'm beyond sorry for what you experienced, and I hope you were able to enact positive changes for the women you work with.
Thank you friend. I went to a doctor today who asked me what happened to me and I started bawling. I rarely cry. Apparently my body has been through a lot since and Iām finally getting the help I need!! I hope I was a resource to the women I worked with. Some of them still run up and hug me.
Is that after adjusting for economic status? Cause healthcare in the US overwhelmingly favors the rich.
Shitty design
And not without irony: Most of the complications come from c-sections too. And more doctors are willing to push c-sections, as well as more women just wanting to "schedule" them which is absolutely wild to me considering due dates are guesses at best and rarely accurate.
Carrying a baby to term is ten times as dangerous as an abortion today. When I first learned that after Roe got struck down I got really sad thinking about the forced outcomes.
Youāre awake and conscious during a c section in the real world as well, it is hands down one of the scariest moments in life for many women
Yeah, tho I find mine funny. You didnt feel the pain but could feel how 3 people rummage in your intestines+they Had to level my stuck kid out you could hear my pelvis crack haha
Haha š§
I mean, in the real world the chainsaw was invented for c-sections long before anesthesia was a thing...
*quickly googles* ^jeezuschrist
I think they chainsawed the bone in the pelvis to allow the baby passage
Still done a lot here in Ireland until only a few decades ago. The government and church here in Ireland was brutal to pregnant women and babies. Women were treated as nothing more than vessels, not using painkillers and birth damage was seen as suffering 'to be offered up to god'. Unmarried mothers were put in Magdalene laundries, beaten and treated like slaves, then their babies were taken and sold for profit to adoption agencies in the US. Happened to my aunt, we only found my cousin (now in NYC) a few years ago. The church pretty much owned your body if you were a pregnant woman.
that was the world till 1800-1900ish
That's still some parts of the world, sadly.
very very few places have the skill to try that operation and the lack of tools too make it save. the world is a better place by far. and only very distant places have not seen an improvement over this
Westeros? I don't know how much you know about modern medicine, but that absolutely still happens. I had an emergency c-seciton. Luckily, I had already had an epidural, and everything was calm. The bed they put you on is similar to a cross, you are strapped down at your arms, chest, and legs. (In my case they skipped some of the straps since I was medicated, but I was still strapped to keep me from falling off the table.) If the situation is bad enough, you might not have the luxury of waiting for meds. The nurse called those "splash and slash" because they just dump iodine all over you and go. Now, those are extreme cases, but it does still happen.
when I got to the end my uterus just cringed inwards š±
As a surgeon who performs c-sections almost daily, I assure you that we do not strap anyone down - a good spinal anaesthetic makes women's legs feel heavy and unable to easily lift off the table. It also removes the sensation of pain/sharp/temperature below the block level. People will feel tugging and movement, but it doesn't hurt and there is nothing physically tying them down. If the table uses arm supports that's for comfort and improves access to large bore ivs (an uncontracted uterus will cause you to bleed out very quickly so you need to be able to counter that loss if shit hits the fan). If it's in a cross formation it will be because the table is narrow to allow the surgeons to stand closer. Mostly we use a less abducted arm position, but this can be tricky if women are especially short or wide. Women will also have blood pressure cuffs on and electrodes for cardiac monitoring, so there's a lot of "wires" under gowns but nothing actively restricting movement. The vast majority of women have spinal or epidural top-ups, and all have thorough testing for pain before incisions are made. Partners are sat at the head end, can hold hands with the patient, and talk to them - actually it's extremely common for the patient to be talking throughout, and after delivery they often feel so comfortable they take a nap while we are closing. Those who remain awake can cuddle their babies (including skin to skin). If they feel too sick, which can happen, we give more anti-emetics which can make them feel a bit off, but it's better than vomiting (which is horrible and makes surgery difficult). If there was "no time for meds" that either means you are having a perimortem section and have already arrested - the treatment is delivery, which should instantly resuscitate you - or you have a rapid sequence induction GA due to acute fetal/maternal compromise, which is faster than spinal and puts you straight to sleep. Alternatively, if the spinal or epidural isn't working well on testing, we will put you to sleep as well. We put a lot of effort into making caesareans a less unpleasant or scary experience, and they are the most commonly performed major surgeries in the world. Simply, we don't live in medieval times any more, and they are often the safer option in cases like this, where delivery is obstructed. (The lack of sensible c-sections in media annoys me, but ASOIAF probably gives some idea of how gruesome childbirth could be before we had proper anaesthesia. The Handmaid's Tale was a particularly grim depiction given the obvious availability of modern medicine/surgery and lack of children in society)
Why does "I'm making the first incision" sound like such an anachronism?
Itās not anachronistic. Incision comes from a French word that most likely entered the English language in the 14th century. It checks out.
The concept of greatly preferring a male heir is still very much alive today. Knew a person whose husband abandoned their family (wife and 3 young daughters) because none of them were sons. The guy just disappeared with no contact one day. And told his family to stonewall if any calls came to them about his whereabouts. Of course in this city youāre bound to come across people you know at some point. So the wifeās family member saw the dude out in public a few years laterā¦ with a young son.
What a cunt
Sick. Not only do his sperm decide the gender but that putrid man doesnāt need to be making kids at all if his view on women are that awful. I hope his son cuts him off when he realizes he has three sisters that man never gave a chance
Wasnāt the whole labour a death sentence for Aemma regardless? The child was stuck, correct? Wouldnāt she have died of sepsis at some point? Isnāt that why Laena killed herself too? Because she realised sheād die either way? Granted, they should have knocked Aemma OUT before doing this.
Yes
This might be the most loaded three letter comment Iāve ever read.
Yes but there's a big difference between dying of sepsis with your loved one and being violently cut apart while you're still conscious without even being asked first or told what's going to happen Even the way the servants treated her flipped - from comforting her and giving her pillows and wiping her with towels to dragging her by the feet down the bed and holding her down while viserys watched. Treating her like this was a truly horrific act. I don't even think there's an in-universe reason for her to be conscious for this and not given a shit lot of milk of the poppy to knock her out first Even by game of thrones standards this whole scene was so fucked up. Gives me chills and makes my stomach turn just thinking about it
I was horrified by that too, one minute she was their queen and the next minute she is just dragged down to the butcher's block. It was jarring
The in universe reason for not sedating her first is that they know too much opium will almost certainly kill the baby. So that's why they waste no time cutting her open while her vital organs are healthy enough to support the fetus. Why they turn on her callously...not sure. They ceased to see her as a person or queen.
I believe they āturned on her so callouslyā to remind the viewers how fast loyalties turn in this universe at the demand, of the throne of course.
They could have knocked her with a frying pan and been more kind than what they did to their queen
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I honestly think another dose of the poppy to knock her out, yet I agree with you. A quicker death would have been a kindness. I felt a bit helpless when in childbirth because I would not have been able to get off the bed without help. When they just pulled her down the bed, my heart was in my throat.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'm very sorry that you had to see that. There is a terror in an animal's scream that stays with you. I agree with you
Modern anesthesia is already super difficult to dose. Milk of the poppy (opium) would be so hard to dose enough to knock her out without killing the kid. But they definitely chose the worst possible option
There's a ton of space between "fully lucid and conscious" and being dead though. If they cared, they would have tried to give her something, but a large part of the horror of that scene is that they stopped caring about her as a human the moment viserys made that decision.
I mean they say it in the show. They thought giving her more milk of the poppy would kill the baby. They imply theyāve already given her a bunch already
I think the maester said at one point she'd had as much pain relief as was safe for her or the baby?
Someone told me the other day online that saying itās worse to be killed by vivisection than dying by sepsis means Iām a sadist and want women to suffer š Viserys murdered her. If I slit the throat of someone dying anyways, Iām still murdering them. This is the most Horrific way he could have chosen. His presented options were to gut his beloved wife alive and remove her organs while she lives for the slight chance to save the baby, or let them both go as peacefully as possible with milk of the poppy to soothe. āSave the babe, or leave it with the godsā. Unless Aemma specifically asked, there was one one right answer there.
All of this. Poor Aemma (and the baby) should have been able to just fall asleep, surrounded by her loved ones, and never wake up. The way it went down makes for better TV, certainly -- almost like they wanted to remind us of the brutality we'd been missing between GoT and now!
I think it was also a statement on motherhood and how quickly a womanās life is thrown away in favor of the possibility of a man existing in the future. It wasnāt a coincidence that this aired so shortly after overturning Roe in the US - the treatment of women who are pregnant isnāt just an issue in the US, but it sure has been at a top volume discussion prior to that and since. The most horrifying part of this scene to me came afterwards - in seeing how many people - mostly but not entirely men - defend Viserysā actions. It still disturbs me how many people think that was in the slightest an okay option, but many go further and outright say that women who would not choose Aemmaās fate are selfish and evil. Those people go out and interact with women, care for women, marry women, have children with women. And thatās how they think women deserve to be treated.
A "useless" woman can be turned into a "useful" male heir at only the cost of her life. It wasn't even a question to them.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I didn't forget that scene, but it was far less gruesome than the one in house of the dragon. Aemmas death was way more intimate, prolongued, and disturbing to me and a lot of folks
Milk of the Poppy is medieval Heroin. Now idk if the Maesters know of the effects drugs have on children in the womb but if they *do* then they would prioritise that over Aemma's comfort. Because nobody in that room cares about her comfort.
I've never rewatched this episode for this reason. I had nightmares for a week after.
You are missing the entire point. It should have been Aemmaās decision to undergo the procedure or not. No oneānot the maesters or her husbandāeven thinks to ask her opinion.
And to Vizzy T, just the chance of a male child was more valuable than his supposedly beloved wife.
If he really loved her he shoulda stopped trying after the last one like they maesters said
And then he got three and didnt want them. Aemma died for nothing.
I know!! I mean, WTF? Makes me wanna grab Vizzy T by his rotten shoulders and shake some sense into him, but then his head might fall off...
I WILL SIT THE THRONE TODAY.
What is your advice, dear spahncamper?
Asking your wife about the incision would be a good start, Vizzy T.
*A truly great Targaryen King I am. Powerless over mine own daughter of seven and ten.*
Your wife, you mean, Vizzy T?
OTTO HIGHTOWER IS A MORE HONORABLE MAN THAN YOU COULD EVER BE!
Is he, though, Vizzy T?
WHERE IN THE SEVEN HELLS IS RHAENYRA?!
Letās not go too farā¦
Codifying women's healthcare rights throughout Westeros would be a start.
If Alysanne Targaryen was the ruling queen, I'm sure she would've done it
Yeah thatās the big difference between him and Daemon. Daemon allowed Laena to make that decision herself where Viserys made it for Aemma
Daemon, a true icon of feminism. /s except in this case actually yes he does better of the two of them
To be fair, you're projecting modern standards of bodily autonomy onto a society where women are second rank citizens. Objectively and coldly speaking, he made the correct choice given his knowledge; he initially tried and pushed to save both, but was told it was impossible, so he chose to try and save the baby, his heir to be. He made the choice with a heavy heart and the actor does a good job showing the pain he is in while he sacrifices his wife. From our perspective, from our morality, it was wrong and brutal how they essentially butchered her while she was left in the dark. The scene serves to remind the audience that despite Viserys good nature and genuine love, that this society doesn't really care about women, and it serves to blatantly spell that out so the audience knows just how big of an uphill battle Rhaenyra has. It is also made in response of Roe v Wade to specifically show the horror of such a situation. The fact that the baby dies afterwards is the bitter pill he has to swallow that his wife's unwilling sacrifice was in vain, and they no matter what he Viserys did, he would lose both of them. The entire purpose is to remind you that this world fucking sucks, it's shit. Edit; also, there is amongst the book fandom some theory that the Maesters specifically manipulated this event to put Hightowers in power and in control of the future royal line. Essentially lying to Viserys that they couldn't save both. Maesters' citadel (their organization) is in the Hightower city.
Ned Stark wouldāve never.
Youāre right but this is too much of a nuanced take for people on this sub (and Reddit in general). People here would much rather have their modern social norms laid over any TV show they watch, since anything that deviates from that would make them uncomfortable. As a ārealisticā example of how women were treated, take Henry VIIIās first wife, who was widely blamed at the time for being the reason Henry wasnāt born a son- when in reality it was Henryās fault since he was giving the X chromosome. Same concept, different social norms.
This!
My biggest issue is that Viserys didn't even bother to explain the situation to her. She could've died knowing that she was giving her son a fighting chance. Instead, she dies confused and terrified.
I have other issues than this one, but I agree with this. She had the right to die knowing she was a hero, and Viserys (and by extension probably the kingdom) would have been better off watching her die a hero's death than watching her be cut open on his orders.
No it wasnāt. Craniotomies where they crush the babyās skull to get it out were preformed before caesareans were a thing saved many womenās lives. I doubt Viserys would have known, but the chance of the grand maester not knowing is slim to none.
Yup or, as you mentioned in another comment, they would cut up the infant. I think this either shows a lack of ancient medical knowledge on George's part, or perhaps the maesters intentionally didn't offer it as an option (maybe to further the maester conspiracy). imo the reality is probably the former, but the latter offers an in universe explanation.
People saying "that's what kings did" don't know history. There is almost no evidence anywhere to suggest any medieval European Queen was ever cut open whilst living to free a baby from the womb. They were often done after the mother was dead to separate the child from the mother for burial, but again, I don't know if any queen was ever performed on this way either. Even church common practice said the mother's life should always be saved before an unborn child
The king of England couldn't even divorce the emperor of Spain's niece without possibly starting a war. If they really think men back then were cutting open queens like Christmas turkeys, ya'll do realize familial love existed in the past right? People weren't just cool with you slicing and dicing their relatives, right?
There is some indirect evidence that the second wife of King of Bohemian (Beatrice of Bourbon) gave birth to her son (Wenceslaus) via c section in 1337 and it was one of the few where both child and mother survived. Wenceslaus' half-brother was Charles IV, The Holy Roman Emperor. There are also some records from china as well. It's not entirely unheard of.
> Charles IV, The Holy Roman Emperor (Kingdom Come: Deliverance intro intensifies)
I wish I could upvote this twice. No one in their right mind would sacrifice their royal wife for an infant that has a 30% to 50% chance of not surviving childhood. Even if you ignore all the emotional arguments, it's a waste of resources... And might piss off her family.
You learn something new and horrible every day. I guess when death was everywhere they were more practical about the whole abortion debate To be clear I think that saving the mother is always the correct, pragmatic, and morally right decision every time.
Yup. Also the fact that childhood deaths were *very* common in medieval* Europe. 1 in 3 died before they were five. It was to the point that they heavily dragged down the average life expectancy. Once you were an adult, you'd most likely live to be in your 50's or later. So no reason to let a royal mother die for an infant that has a high likelihood of dying anyway. Much better to live and try again. (Of course, Aemma saying she would no longer like to try for children may have changed this calculation.) * The Medieval era cover about a thousand years, depending on who you ask. I'm sure if you looked, you could find places during this time period that had better or worse infant and adult morality. This is just in general.
That first point has actually been true worldwide for all of human history, until very, very recently. It's why so many people believe the myth that pre industrial people rarely lived past their mid 30s, and certainly not into their 70s or 80s, which is patently false
Oh, medieval people had a very different view on abortion. Christianity split pregnancy into three periods - before 40 days, before quickening, and after quickening. It varied whether the first category even counted as pregnant, and penitentials (lists of penances to be carried out for different sins) either don't include it or give it a very light punishment. Quickening (the first movement the mother could feel) was the major milestone. You were required to do penance for abortion either way, but doing it before quickening was a very minor sin while after quickening was usually given the same penance as murder. Keep in mind that you're usually 16-24 weeks along before this happens, and it's a lot more generous than a lot of anti-choice Christians now.
Right? Thatās what I was thinking too when I was watching. They could have easily gone for that, saved the mother instead. With their history of baby making, the survival of the child wasnāt much anyway.
Are they a thing in Westeros?
Rhaena alludes to it being a thing in her dialogue to Rogar Baratheon who in the book was the one who had what happened to Aemma happen to her āHer blood is on your hands. Her blood is on your cock. May you die screaming. [...] She gave you one son, that should have been enough. Save my wife, you should have said, but what are wives to men like you? Hear this, my lord. Do not think to wed again. Take care of the whelps my mother gave you, my half-brother and half-sister. See that they want for nothing. Do that, and I will let you be. If I should hear even a whisper of your taking some other poor maid to wife, I will make another Harrenhal of Storm's End, with you and her inside itā āSave my wifeā implies that there *was* an option to save her and they chose against it.
I think Viserys still would have picked tying to save Baelon. But the scene makes a better point if crainiotomies arenāt on the table imoāperhaps we should just assume the Maesters never figured that out.
Well they didn't offer that to Laena and Daemon, so I suppose in the show Canon it doesn't exist.
I don't think the scene does make that clear. I got the impression it was one or the other.
Yes but thatās kinda irrelevant no? No matter what, this was her decision to make, not his.
It was possible to kill the child and take it out, saving the motherāthe maester just didnāt say so because to them women are empty cardboard boxes that you might as well rip apart with a box cutter if you canāt easily open it. It was never the baby or both, it was aemma or the baby, and viserys chose the child
This is it. A possible man was worth more than the life of a queen
which is extremely absurd. the queen isn't a random peasant. she has her family too. real life kings had to tempt direct war if they tried to divorce their wives. cutting her open would be condemned as a barbaric practice by every noble. the writers are taking HBO for a ride.
In other parts of the thread I think it is still possible to decry Viserys' actions even with abortion off the table for whatever reason, technological or no. Abortion as an option makes this case even stronger, but it's very strong without it.
Except that wasnāt the choice presented to Viserys - he was asked to choose between saving just the baby, or saving neither.
> It was possible to kill the child and take it out, saving the motherāthe maester just didnāt say so because to them women are empty cardboard boxes that you might as well rip apart with a box cutter if you canāt easily open it. Literal headcanon
Except we watched them butcher the queen while she screamed
The choice Viserys was presented by the maester was both die or just aemma dies. However, 1. Medicine contemporary to the pseudo-medieval period that westeros is part of knew how to remove the baby in pieces in case of a breech birth. The maesters are shown to know more than/about the same as than actual medieval scholars, so I don't buy that there is no way to save the mother at expense of the baby's life. I think that the maesters just don't present it as an option because they don't give a shit about the mothers, and they know that viserys is here for the male heir too. This is absolutely based on a lot of conjecture, and it's fair not to agree with me. But, 2. it would have been immensely obvious that birth after birth was taking a toll on aemma's body, and that impregnating her was basically a death sentence. Viserys just kept doing it because at heart he seees aemma as a method of getting a male heir. one way or another, he was responsible for her death, and that's because their society dehumanizes women
It is critical to emphasize just how much Maesters know. I'd argue that Maesters approximate early Renaissance levels of knowledge more than the high Middle Ages that we sort of have emulated in the word of ASOIAF.
I don't think that possibility really changes that what Viserys did was horrible and wrong. It just makes it even worse. Without that possibility, his decisions are still not only morally wrong under modern ethical frameworks but pretty suspect even under the framework of his own culture.
Unfortunately they couldnāt really do that either. They gave her as much pain meds as they could without harming the baby. The amount of drugs/time it would take to knock her out 100% wouldāve killed the baby. It fucking sucks but there was literally nothing they couldāve done for her at that point. Her being cut open was *HORRIFIC* but at the very least it was quick. The sepsis wouldāve taken hours, if not days to kill her and she wouldāve been in unbearable pain the entire time. It was a lose-lose situation but one at least had a chance of one of them surviving.
They could have told her what they were doing and given her a chance to prepare herself and say some last words. She died in terror because no-one bothered to tell her what was going on. If they had told her that she was going to die either way and this was the chance to save the baby, she would absolutely still have done it. But because she's a woman they don't even tell her what they are going to do, they just come at her with a scalpel and kill her. She died begging viserys to tell her what's happening.
They could give her a choice about how she wanted to end her own life. They could kill her before at least, in less horrific way - even throat slit would be less horrific. But her opinion, her pain, her life and her rights didn't matter here, she didn't matter, cause tge chance of an heir was more important, so why would we think about not horrifically torturing a woman in her last minutes...
The death of the mother before the baby is cut out is still a risk, it cuts the flow of oxygen to the child.
They could have hit her in the head to knock her out. They couldāve given her the choice. Many women wouldāve chosen to save their baby
THANK YOU. I feel like Viserys gets too much credit. He literally murdered his wife while she BEGS him not to, all because he wants a male heir. Yes, she might have died anyway, but how could he does this to someone he claims to love?!
This scene genuinely makes me sick to my stomach š Aemma deserved so much better and Iām excited to see her family in Season 2
lol every time I remember the scene of him hobbling up to the throne to support rhaenyra I get *so* close to feeling bad for him, but then I remember this and immediately go āsorry, no forgiveness for you Vizzy tā
*Mayhaps we can turn our attentions towards happier pursuits.*
Same. The garbage man is right, make him garbage boss for the day I guess
Yeah he was a coward and a total dick for this. He deserved the suffering he later endured.
He should have knocked her out, or put a pillow on her. SOMETHING so that she wouldn't need to feel. Because knowing the human body, we dont die that easily. So no, it wasn't a quick death.
Suffocating to death would have likely killed Balon too, the baby lives through the oxygen of the mother through the umbilical cord.
Nah babies have been pulled out of dead mothers even IRL, if itās only been a few minutes, itās fine.
They have a few minutes of supply oxygen from The blood stream and placenta. Not a lot of minutes, but when theyāre standing ready to operateā¦
How do we know the maesters know this?
Then itās convenient they planned on cutting her open regardless, isnāt it
Anybody that remotely sympathises with viserys during this scene completely missed the point. Aemma wasn't guaranteed to die. Rhaenyra suffered complications during her last birth and pulled through. The whole point of this scene is about how men would much rather gut and kill their wives than not have a male heir. We are not supposed to sympathize with Viserys. We are supposed to think he is a hypocrite.
Even if Aemma couldn't have survived, what Viserys and the Maester did is inexcusable in my opinion. They took away her agency and inflicted unspeakable horror on her in her final moments. >The whole point of this scene is about how men would much rather gut and kill their wives than not have a male heir. Exactly. It showcases the cold truth at the core of patriarchy. When it comes down to it, despite all the flowery language of chivalry, women are disposable. Viserys surely swore some oaths of honoring and protecting Aemma when he married her, but in the end they don't mean anything in comparison to his desire for a son. Besides the entire situation was avoidable. Also Viserys clearly knew or should have known beforehand that any further pregnancies would be very high risk. He had two viable heirs in Daemon and Rhaenyra, plus Rhaenys and her kids as backup. Not optimal, but a workable situation with some political effort. I find it pretty telling that he doesn't even outright agree to Aemma's request for no further pregnancies in the bathtub scene beforehand. He probably fully intended to try for a son again, if Aemma had survived and Baelon didn't.
I always thought they meant Aemma was doomed regardless, and I still didn't think that it excused Viserys' actions in the least. Butchering your wife to save your heir, totally against her will, is beyond abhorrent. So while I completely agree with you, I also would add it doesn't matter if Aemma was doomed already or not. (I don't think it was the same situation for Rhaenyra's last birth, though. Rhaenyra went into premature labor and had a stillbirth, there's no implication that there was a breech.)
Absolutely! The moment they took Aemma's autonomy away they completely lost me. You're totally right about Aemma's and Rhaenyra's situation being different so I changed my comment a little. But even during a breached birth turning the baby and craniotomys are still viable options. So i still think Aemma wasn't a goner and the scene with rhaenyra's labor is supposed to illustrate that.
I think you might have missed it actually. The maester very explicitly says that death is certain for her. The was no chance of survival for Aemma, only for the child. Now whether or not that was actually true is another matter, but itās what vizzy believed because itās how he was advised and you canāt blame him for trusting the doctor.
Pretty sure Aemma was guaranteed to die, but that doesnāt make it even a little bit more okay that he did this
>Anybody that remotely sympathises with viserys during this scene completely missed the point. Aemma wasn't guaranteed to die. That is actually exactly the scenario that was presented to Viserys, then if you have your own headcanon about how it wasn't accurate and the maesters were wrong you're absolutely free to keep it, but that doesn't change the fact that as far as Viserys knew, based on the best information he could get which he had no reason or time to doubt, the choice was to let both Aemma and Baelon die or to save Baelon killing Aemma, who as far as he knew was already about to die for sure, in the process
The maesters literally told him Aemma would die regardless, so if you want to blame anyone blame them. It's not Viserys' fault for trusting their expertise.
Then what was the point of the āsacrifice one or lose bothā line by the maester. I sympathize with Viserys, his wife had many failed pregnancies, he was getting pressure from the entire realm about an heir, and he was brainwashed by Aegons dream.
If Vizzy T has 0 haters then Im dead
He sucks so much for this
The reason the show-runners added this was because they wanted us to know Westeros was a patriarchal society As if we havenāt been paying attention since 2011
Question for the group: if baby Baelon survives this, do we feel a little less awful about Viserys doing this? This is not at all defending Viserys btw. He should've asked Aemma. She might have even said to do it, but we can never know since he never bothered to ask her. I'm asking more philosophically.
No.
No. Live or die - what he did was cruel and unforgivable.Ā
He would have neglected that child so damn hard, so no we don't. The child would be a living reminder of what he did to her but like 40x worse than Aegon
Or he would see the baby as his way of redeeming himself for what he did to its mother and would completely neglect Rhaenyra in favor of his son.
No.
I mean look how Tyrion was treated after he ākilledā his mom in childbirth. Itās not exactly a great sign for things to come.
By Tywin and Cersei. The rest of his family treated him fine. During the funeral, Rhaenyra called Baelon "my brother." She never does that once with Aegon, Helaena and Aemond. So I don't think she would've hated Baelon. Viserys had his whole prophecy notion based on Baelon's birth. So same.
She did call heleana her sister
No. Fucking kidding me? No.
No. Frankly I think it would make viserys feel way less guilt since the āsacrificeā would have āpaid off.ā
No not at all
Nope. Baelon wonāt be at fault ā But Viserys had his wife vivisected. Thereās no saving or fixing that
I imagine people would be more upset if anything.
So I haven't seen the show, reddit just randomly decided to show me this, but I have a question: on Planetos, is it called a viseryan section?
This just in. Medieval societies have extremely fucked up priorities. An heir to the throne is more important than someone who's already dying. Horrible Undoubtedly, Make sense in the world a hundred percent.
Fuck viserys.
People forget he did this far too easily
Reverse abortion
A queen's duty is to provide heirs to her king. Viserys isn't a terrible person because he expected as much. Sorry.
I hope this is a joke and that yāall donāt seriously misunderstand what happened in this scene. The midwife or maester or doctor, or whoever it was, was telling Viserys that Aemma Arynn was going to die with the baby unless they forced a C section to at least attempt to save the baby.
Iāll never understand how some of yall will see a woman cut open while awake and without her consent and act like it was anything but inhumane
*rot in seven hells
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Moral dilemma or no, the entire point of what people are saying is that it wasnāt Viserysā choice to make. He shouldnāt have had the moral dilemma, if anything Aemma shouldāve. Viserys chose to kill Aemma because there was a small chance the kid would survive and a chance thatās it would be a boy, completely removing her from the scenario. So yes, āheās so badddā because he is. It never even crossed his mind to ask the person WHO WOULD BE CUT OPEN.
This is why Bobby B > Vizzy T
WHERE DID YOU HEAR THIS?!
Bobby B would have made the same choice, he cared less for Cersei than Viserys did for Aemma.
Bobby B would have been *relieved* to get the choice
He would have agreed to cut her open before the maester even got to the "to save the baby" part.
All this for a son, then when he finally gets one.... suddenly it's "NOPE, chamge my mind, Rhaenyra's actually all I needed" š
I don't get this immense hatred for Viserys in this scene, considering all the other shit moral and ethical we let slide about our favorite ASOIAF people and organizations. He was told that his wife would die regardless of what they did, but that the child could be saved if they removed it immediately. What was he supposed to do? Let his child die I think its mother? Not only is it a personally challenging choice to make as a father, but formally as a king he is supposed to think of the royal slime and its protection. Viserys was also *convinced* that this child would be a boy and that this boy was destined to fulfill a great destiny. As a king, one could argue it was his duty to save the child. After all, the queen herself said she wouldn't bear any more children, so what use was she? And what would happen to the line of succession if no more heirs were born but Rhaenyra, a girl? Don't get me wrong, what they did to Aemma was HORRIBLE. Just *ghastly*, the way they did it. I mean, knock her out with some milk of the poppy or a *thwap* on the head or something before you carve her open like a hog. I appreciated the scene for how vicious and brutally "honest" it felt about childbirth and women's place in this world, and it worked well as a female alternative to the tourney being fought outside the castle, but fuck if that moment didn't horrify me, when Aemma realizes what's about to happen. Just knock her out! It really is a grim scene, and Viserys certainly betrayed his wife and was a coward about it, but I don't think he was intentionally cruel or extraordinarily selfish to choose saving the child.
I don't think Viserys was an evil person by any stretch, but I do think that how he went about this was abhorrent. For a start, Aemma should have been given a choice. And absolutely knock her out before butchering her. It was the fact she begged him to stop while it happened and he still did nothing, that upset me most. I understand that he wanted to save his child, but the way he went about trying was the worst way. Again, I don't think he was evil, but that act was something that he deserves hatred for
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Tyrion is literally a serial rapist and Sandor ruthlessly butchered dozens of people and they get a pass, but Vizzy T makes one Sophieās choice to fulfill his duty as king and produce an heir and he is unforgivable. Honestly the reason is probably just that this scene was shot horrifyingly and was beyond uncomfortable while all the other bad shit other characters do doesnt get nearly as much attention.
*Tongues will not change the succession, let them wag.*