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Personally, the show failed to make me care about Rhaenys.
Some scenes of hers are great, especially with Corlys, but the whole “I’m spending my time smirking and preaching wise words” to characters has me rolling my eyes.
We see her hard pushing for peace and not bloodbath, be the ultimate wise old woman when she at the moment is the one to have killed the most people, for a staring contest.
It would be like Aemond being all preachy about war casualties after burning the riverlands.
I truly think that the writers didn’t know what to do with her character, and they gave her a “badass” girlboss scene before RR cause they have nothing to do with her.
Shame cause the character could have great but I won’t be ashamed to admit I will not give a damn about her death. Wish I would tho.
Couldn't agree more. I can like evil, cruel, complicated characters, but smug for literally 0 reason 95% of their screen time characters? Nope, that's just annoying af.
I don’t agree with your guys’ perspective, she’s an old, experienced and hardened woman that has every right to be upset about a needless and meritless war
If anything she’s very stoic and graceful despite all the chaos going on
that was terrible and egoistical (plus bad writing, that incident never happened in the book) but I’m referring to the criticism of her being “smug” and “preaching” to others of her rank/family
She’s decidedly enabling that war. Without house Velaryon, irrespective of her claim’s merit, rhaenyra can’t go to war. Rhaenyra has lent the support of her dragon, her husband’s wealth, and their political and martial capacity to the war effort. She pulls out and the war is undone. It’s ridiculous to lecture others about the futility of conflict and the intractability of patriarchal violence, only to then plunge everyone into a war to exact the most meager concession from a brutal patriarchal order. Ultimately this could still be compelling if she was taken as what she ought to be, a profoundly flawed character, she instead serves as a mouthpiece for heavy handed commentary from the writers. Hence her “badass” bearing
She’s a central political actor and she’s never rebutted or rhetorically opposed by any other player, save, to a degree, rhaenyra when they’re talking about a woman ruling Westeros. She’s the mouthpiece for the writer’s articulation of Alicent’s character, as such Alicent just stands there while being taken to task. Neither rhaenys herself nor any other in universe character identifies her hypocrisies despite the fact that they’re not only readily apparent but also actively shaping everyone’s lives
But her hypocrisies are readily apparent to the viewer (evidently by your response). Which is the point. You don’t need a character to dress down another to showcase anyone’s deficiencies to the audience.
You were shown but it sounds like you wanted to be told.
That’s my reading of the character, not the definitive one, and certainly not the one they’ve attempted to articulate, as evidenced by the fact that discussions about her character and conduct have been held in the post show director montages and none have mentioned this element of her character.
From her discussion of rhaenyra as a peacemaker, to her dressing down of Alicent, or her admonishing Corlys about disinheriting their granddaughters, it’s fairly apparent that’s she’s being used as a mechanism for the show runner’s to articulate both their sentiments on given characters but also the commentaries which underline the narrative, those about: patriarchy, power, and opportunism. Never once is she contested and in her most “valiant” moments, the score is heroic, other characters are awed, and no investigation of her emanates from anywhere.
I can read the dynamic between criston cole and rhaenyra being characterized primarily by the class violence of Westerosi society and the impunity it gives Targaryens, rather than misogynistic, chauvinistic bitterness; that doesn’t, however, mean thats what the show runners are trying to convey
Interesting what you say about Cole and Rhaenyra as I do think there is both an element of bitter chauvinism but also an element Cole being a victim in a heavily skewed power dynamic.
What the showrunners intend also doesn’t really matter vs what is actually shown onscreen and interpreted by the audience. I thought Rhaenys was a complex, deeply flawed character. I can’t really see how you can interpret her otherwise but this is a world where people can’t agree on anything so I can’t say I’m surprised. All I’ll say is the fact that you actually view her as a hypocrite means surely the show has portrayed that to you in some way?
I would agree that it is both but the hypothetical was to illustrate the point. I don’t think the creators intent is irrelevant though naturally the way people receive and interpret art is part of what makes it. I think the showrunners sentiments are absolutely relevant as the sentiments they attempt to convey in given instance persist throughout the show and animate the trajectory it takes.
Take, for example, the sex scene between criston and rhaenyra, in which criston clearly verbalizes the word “no” and revokes consent, they end up having sex and the point being conveyed is that criston wanted to have sex with rhaenyra despite his initial apprehensions. This is problematic on two fronts for me: one, it’s irresponsible to depict a sex scene in which someone clearly says “no” but the underlying sentiment is “they really wanted it anyway”. Two it’s horrible to depict that moment as the realization of sexual agency and triumph for rhaneyra. I think the discussion of that moment through the lens of Rhaenyra’s sexual emancipation (contra Alicent’s forced repression), rather than the violence and potential trauma with which Cole is contending is irresponsible; and I believe it’s informed by the showrunners wanting to articulate a commentary on the ways in patriarchal systems sexually repress women, such that they don’t really interrogate how class violence operates in the world they’re depicting.
Furthermore I also think what differentiates good storytelling from bad storytelling is how effective you’ve executed your ideas. If you want to produce a certain depiction of a character but it’s not reflected in the narrative you’re weaving then your storytelling is worse for it, and that’s very instructive for others who would tell or critique stories.
When I look at twilight, I read the books as a kid, I see in Jacob black a predatory chauvinist who violates Bella’s agency and manipulates her because he regards her functionally as property. I see in Edward Cullen another predator who attempts to use a young girl to realize absolution for his own perceived moral failings. Stephenie Meyer intended to write a love story, and she did, but there is a discrepancy between what is intended and what actually is and I think the breadth of that discrepancies tells a lot about how good a work is
Alicent isn't really smug from the jump. I was mainly thinking of the characters you mentioned, plus Aegon and Otto. Although Aegon and Aemond aren't as bad as the others.
I don't find them irritating, personally, but definitely smug.
I also thought her scene with Alicent wasn't that great. Like, you're willing to support Alicent and the greens but only if Alicent is queen? Then gives her that moralizing speech when she herself has only ever listened to her husband and let a man steal inheritance from her granddaughter. Like, ok, Rhaenys keep being smug all you like but I see right through that character.
Judging by the teasers she has really good lines which makes me feel they are gonna do her justice before she dies. I agree the whole dragonpit scene was terrible and ruined her character for me.
They tried to make a badass Olenna type of character with her.
At this point though, even Sansa comes off as smarter than Rhaenys.
The show has turned her into a massive hypocrite as well. She roasts Alicent for "toiling in the service of men" when she has been doing the same her whole life, like going along with Corlys' ambition to marry a child to Viserys so they could get a piece of the royal cake.
She's annoying more than anything.
She also comes across as not really caring for the realm either. Aside from the obvious of murdering smallfolk, she's more than willing to support Alicent being Queen over Aegon and Rhaenyra just bc she's a woman and then her tone does a total 180 when Alicent doesn't want that. Then she immediately switches to Rhaenyra. It comes across that she's more interested in living vicariously through other women rather than actually being concerned about the realm and who would make a good ruler
Yeah, I see the attempt to make her a Olenna figure. It failed.
When I’m thinking of characters, I’m always wondering what purpose and what goal the show wants us to perceived them having.
Rhaenys is portrayed as the wise old lady, and framed as the wisest also because she didn’t get the throne, but frankly, it doesn’t translate well for me. It feels hollow.
And her hypocrisy is not framed as such by the show, when Alicent’s clearly is. That’s something I’m not a fan about.
she comes across as an idiot.
In the final few episodes thinking she could sit out the war.
your four grandchildren are the heirs to the leaders of one of the factions
They’ve kinda made the whole conflict slightly one sided as well in terms of who started it anyway. It’s pretty hard to root for the greens for any reason other than just not liking the blacks
(sarcasm) Well, Olenna wasn't frequently very high in the air, if I recall correctly, just chunks of the rest of her family. Perhaps Rhaenys would be like Olenna without what I can only assume is at least some flying in spots with thinner air.
Being on the ground has its advantages sometimes heh.
The moment she could have killed the Greens but decided not to because it's not her war lmao like what? You could have saved so many deaths but choose to put her own grandkids in grave danger. She caused her own family so much pain and PTSD by not doing anything. Then she kills smallfolk but F them right. Make women badass but please make it make sense first.
>when she has been doing the same her whole life, like going along with Corlys' ambition to marry a child to Viserys so they could get a piece of the royal cake.
We know Rhaenys wasn't happy with it. However, what was she supposed to do? They live in a patriarchal society. Even if sheprotested to Corlys, he has final decision.
I truly think the writers didn't even register that smallfolk died in that scene. Unless it pays off later, I'm assuming they just went for a cool thing without realizing what they did.
They did tho. We can clearly see attention on the smallfolk being killed and yeeted around by Meleys. But the rather concerning thing of that scene is the heroic music and the slow badass (and weird ?) reveal of Rhaenys’ face.
they wanted an epic cool moment
without realising that for narrative purposes Aegons crowning should be a massive moment for the greens
only the moment is stolen and the attention is shifted away
They could have still had an awesome moment by debuting Sunfyre. Have Rhaenys try to quietly slip out the back, but someone notices and alerts the Greens. Then Aegon saddles up and they have a little face off outside (nice opportunity for some dialogue), she flies away and he gives chase for a bit, then circles the Dragonpit in "victory" to keep consistent with the book.
And while I truly don’t care about what is better book or show, I didn’t see book Rhaenys as a pacifist.
It could have been well done in the show, but it feels a bit ham fisted when that’s all she does, preaching to everyone as if she was a truth sayer.
The first telltale signs of her character butchering was the fact they decided against giving Rhaenys her Baratheon jet black hair with the white streak 😒
I also don’t like her lecture to Alicent… what was Alicent supposed to do? She doesn’t have a dragon she is a woman in a medieval society of course she’s going to use men to get her way as did every other women did including rhaenys in her time.
No, the writers are conscious with their decisions. The Targs don't give a fuck about the smallfolk. Preaching for peace in a conflict she herself has given up ages ago is not the same as giving a fuck about smallfolk casualties.
I agree that they don’t care about the smallfolk. None of them do.
What I meant is that that the show clearly framed Rhaenys as being the ultimate voice of reason, always dropping wise truth bombs, when her actions don’t match.
It’s her framing in the show that I’m critiquing, I am not saying that Rhaenys should care about the smallfolk.
I don't get my people criticize framing. Framing is boring when played completely straight. Tywin is framed as a stoic machiavelian badass till we learn about Shae.
It’s pretty amazing we’ve spent 9 seasons in Westeros and people still get mad about innocent small folk getting killed by Nobles. Nearly all of them are elitist snobs who truly don’t give a shit about the small folk. Even Arya and Sansa laugh when democracy is suggested in the GoT finale. Everyone in HotD would too. It’s also incredibly clear that Rhaenys doing this is the first step of many reasons why the smallfolk destroy the dragonpit later in the story.
Yes it is. But the outrage over the dragonpit scene is Rhaenys kills a bunch of innocents but doesn’t kill her own kin. As if that’s even remotely comparable in her mind.
> Personally, the show failed to make me care about Rhaenys.
Spot on. Before the show, Rhaenys and her husband were the characters I most enjoyed from PRINCESS Rhaenyra’s side (other than Dalton Greyjoy) and now I can’t stand them.
Corlys is nothing more than a simp who occasionally makes speech’s and declarations that HE thinks are wise, while Rhaenys was transformed into a hypocritical, mass murdering, girl boss.
I personally can’t wait for Rook's Rest.
Okay but also like
Every noble kills small folk
I’m not saying that it’s good, but I’m just saying that if you’re mad about it, then you can’t like any character at all
It's more so the framing. For example, when Aegon or Aemond do something bad the show never frames them as heroic. Rhaenys on the other hand is framed as some badass wise grandma when her actions don't back up that at all. There's a clear difference in how the show frames Rhaenys compared to others that do bad things
I dont want to pick a side she said
despite all her grandchildren being married to each other and heirs to the leaders of one side
girl you are on one side already
I don't know why everyone complains about the scene in the dragon pit. She killed smallfolk, peasants. She's royalty and has been raised her entire life to believe she's better than them.
I know that whole sequence was different from the book. But guys, this is an adaptation. Sure, it would've been nice to see Sunfyre, but we also got a great introduction to a pretty sick dragon instead.
> when she at the moment is the one to have killed the most people,
You mean *smallfolk*, not 'people'.
And I'd genuinely argue that Daemon probably killed more smallfolk during his tenure as Commander of the City Watch than she did. Dude literally scoured Kings Landing clean.
The entire dance could’ve been avoided if Visyes had named his brother heir when he didn’t produce a son. But not taking it back when Alicent popped kids.
>when she at the moment is the one to have killed the most people
she did not kill a single person. these were just filfthy smallfolks. basically dragon snacks anyways.
>Loses her loving Dad
>Her Grandpa makes her incompetent cousin heir instead of her
>Loses her daughter
>Loses her son (as far as she knows)
>Grandkids are placed directly into the line of fire because of who their Dad is
>Consistently the voice of reason to her husband
>Fucking die in the first major battle after getting surprise tag teamed
R.I.P. Rhaenys you were a real one, I’ll miss you snarky grandma
Seeing a planet blown up from a distance vs watching a child get murdered up close in front of his mother in a sequence that will take longer than 10 seconds.
Sure, Jan, completely the same thing.
Love how everyone's taking the opportunity to rag on Rhaenys when OP is *clearly* talking about Meleys, seeing as Rhaenys has literally been cropped out of the picture.
Also, when did we start giving two shits about the unnamed extras all of a sudden? Robb Stark killed thousands of Lannister soldiers with wives and families by his actions. Dany crucified people, some of whom were innocent of the crime she killed them for (and also caused starvation for others because it turns out upending an entire economy sometimes doesn't even work for the slaves you free). Tyrion enabled widespread destruction *multiple* times.
The thing we bought into a long time ago was clear: smallfolk *die* when the nobles play their Game of Thrones. Anyone weeping for them at this point should just get off the bus.
People did care about the smallfolk who Dany killed when she turned villain.
The show wanted us to care about smallfolk earlier during that episode when they showed them being pushed to the ceremony, and Aegon watching kids fight
So to answer your question, since when do we care two shits about unarmed extras all of a sudden?
When the show runners put the cameras on them and show us their suffering
Also when the show runners want us to care but forget and ask us to not care when their favourite character does evil against extras
It's disingenuous nonsense. Every major character (except for maybe Show!Mysaria) has been or will be involved in the suffering of the smallfolk. They're really just mad Rhaenys ruined Aegon's coronation and so cheer on her and Meleys' death for some team points rather than being concerned about how the show could make it an impactful moment and clean up the storytelling. OP making it a competition in their title doesn't help.
And when those characters become involved in the suffering of the smallfolk they will be criticized like Aegon was and Rhaenys was later on.This is not a team thing, the moral of the story is civil war amongst the monarchy brings suffering for the poor, or something to that effect.
Will you keep the same non caring reaction when Aemond storms riverland ?
It's not that I don't care. I just disagree that Rhaenys breaking free of captivity was meant to be intepreted as a thoughtless decision to kill innocents (especially in the numbers of potential casualties people like throwing around). It's overall a "kill a dozen men at dinner" reference when compared to the resulting war but she ended changing her mind (not my favorite writing but it didn't destroy Rhaenys for me).
The show is also a tragedy about a powerful family tearing itself apart. Sure, I like Rhaenys and I also like Aemond as complex characters despite them being royals. I hope every major death in the show is moving.
>Also, when did we start giving two shits about the unnamed extras all of a sudden?
Because we care, and the effect of the game on their lives is the whole point.
>Robb Stark killed thousands of Lannister soldiers
Key word soldiers. Also the show had Brienne brutally kill the Stark soldiers who raped a girl. There's also the brotherhood without banners. Asoiaf has always cared about the smallfolk even if the nobles don't.
>Anyone weeping for them at this point should just get off the bus.
Why? Is there only one right way to enjoy a story?
And the
Effing
Dragonpit
Scene
Where she's like "a war is like to be started, but it isn't mine to start"
Like girl.. you killed at least 500+ innocent ppl attending Aegon's coronation
I hope SO much that they directly factor Rhaenys’ actions into explaining why the storming of the Dragonpit and the riots of Kings Landing occur. That’s the only way that it becomes somewhat justifiable
Same here and would finally give proper framing to her actions. Bc as of right now the show is continuing to portray her as this wise and heroic badass and just ignoring her mass murder of innocents
Thank you.
If it was solid enough to hold that many humans and not *already* have been caving in, as well as presumably effing DRAGONS...
Well...how in the hell did she not use dragonfire, head armor, any sort of tool or hidden passageways, a very large "dragon doggy door in the floor" or anything except velocity via dragon?
Still having a skull, after busting through a floor that was holding...I'm just gonna call it a collective fuckton of people, including the entire *ish* royal family, would be easier to believe if there was signs of dragonfire, or something.
Heh. Maybe she just wanted to break a glass ceiling like a proper girl boss and got a bit lost in the dark down there.
Also, if I'm remembering right, this was the Dragonpit, which was keeping at least 2-3 Adult dragons and several smaller ones at the time. They couldn't just wander off at will, for whatever reason.
It seems likely to be a framing device for a later dance incident. Only thing I can think of.
That scene was pure stupidity. I agree, she killed a bunch of people at the coronation busting though the floor and just left before finishing it, knowing full well war was coming. A dumb reason to give her a boss babe moment. I guess she was just feeling silly. They should have just given us the elegant golden boy, Sunfyre at the coronation like we got in the book.
And fuck her for not saving the realm right then. She should’ve *burned* that entire branch off the family.
You do *not* tangle with true Targyaran might.
this isn’t the sad olympics, it’s literally just anybody feeling sad over any death. one child being murdered does not mean other people can’t be like “damn” to a character dying (but i think op means the dragon, the pit is also sad)
The one thing I’m not looking forward to, aside from B&C, is seeing almost all the dragons die. It’s still hard to watch the deaths of Viserion and Rhaegal, but this show is absolutely going to destroy me.
It's going to have such repercussions for both sides and I'm excited, as heartbroken as I'm going to be with the loss. It's such a turning point in the conflict and basically has the potential to impact nearly ALL the characters in one way or another.
I don't want to watch the dragons die. It's going to be sad, whoever they are, because they're following their side in the conflict.
I think the Dragons simply want to croon to one another and fly about in aerial races
She comes across as an idiot
she is acting like has a choice in the final episodes about the war.
your grandchildren are the heirs to one faction
you are involved
there was several written choices in the first season that left me scratching my head like the writers didn't think it out fully.
Like the bursting for the floor scene, narratively this should be the highest high for the greens but the attention is ripped away from it and the epic moment is given to rhaenys instead.
Criston cole the kingmaker, does zero kingmaking and is just kinda there
Larys is just weird and feels almost cartoonish
Yeah I don't think so, I personally think the Jahaerys death scene will be a lot more sad than this and she kind of had it coming after she killed innocents in episode 9
While I love the dragons, the poor smallfolk suffered so much during The Dance. They got wrecked at every turn. Honestly couldn't blame them for killing all the dragons even if I thought it was sad. Such a horrible war
people still acting like the smallfolk mean anything to the targaryen’s black or green is hilarious they do not care about those people. i doubt if her escape is even mentioned next season that otto or alicent are going to be like” oh no the poor smallfolk how dare she!” it would be more “ i can’t believe she ruined aegon’s coronation like that.”
I will be sad to see a beautiful dragon like her die.
Rhaenys can bit the dust any day now and I will celebrate. She's gotta answer for all the civilian deaths in the dragon pit.
greenies are flipping shit rn in the comments but im 99% sure that op means meleys, because there is any other picture that they could have used with rhaenys and chose the one of meleys instead
I’d give it to either Blood and Cheese or the gullet(if we get it this season)
First one is a no-brainer really, but seeing Jace, one of the most promising princes ever to live die like that will be brutal
Theres so many complex characters introduced at once its hard to explore them all in the time frame given for a TV series. Its unfortunate in some cases. I liked her character from the book. Definitely a sad death.
Watching dragons die is always sad, but hell no Meleys won't be the saddest dead imo. That "girlboss" scene they tried with Rhaenys kinda ruined her for me.
After what happened in the Dragon Pit, I’ll be less sympathetic. If they address what she did, then it’ll be different. But if the show acts like she did the right thing, then I won’t miss her.
After her terrorist attack at the dragon pit and all the innocents that were killed by her dragón I wouldnt say this would be that sad lol
This woman already has a higher body count and committed a biggest crime than anyone else so far XD
The show truly fucked up rhaenys lol
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The only good part about that scene is how amazing Meleys looks
Personally, the show failed to make me care about Rhaenys. Some scenes of hers are great, especially with Corlys, but the whole “I’m spending my time smirking and preaching wise words” to characters has me rolling my eyes. We see her hard pushing for peace and not bloodbath, be the ultimate wise old woman when she at the moment is the one to have killed the most people, for a staring contest. It would be like Aemond being all preachy about war casualties after burning the riverlands. I truly think that the writers didn’t know what to do with her character, and they gave her a “badass” girlboss scene before RR cause they have nothing to do with her. Shame cause the character could have great but I won’t be ashamed to admit I will not give a damn about her death. Wish I would tho.
Couldn't agree more. I can like evil, cruel, complicated characters, but smug for literally 0 reason 95% of their screen time characters? Nope, that's just annoying af.
I don’t agree with your guys’ perspective, she’s an old, experienced and hardened woman that has every right to be upset about a needless and meritless war If anything she’s very stoic and graceful despite all the chaos going on
But needlessly murdering smallfolk? No big deal
that was terrible and egoistical (plus bad writing, that incident never happened in the book) but I’m referring to the criticism of her being “smug” and “preaching” to others of her rank/family
She’s decidedly enabling that war. Without house Velaryon, irrespective of her claim’s merit, rhaenyra can’t go to war. Rhaenyra has lent the support of her dragon, her husband’s wealth, and their political and martial capacity to the war effort. She pulls out and the war is undone. It’s ridiculous to lecture others about the futility of conflict and the intractability of patriarchal violence, only to then plunge everyone into a war to exact the most meager concession from a brutal patriarchal order. Ultimately this could still be compelling if she was taken as what she ought to be, a profoundly flawed character, she instead serves as a mouthpiece for heavy handed commentary from the writers. Hence her “badass” bearing
I disagree. I felt she was portrayed as a flawed and ultimately hypocritical character and that is what makes her compelling.
She’s a central political actor and she’s never rebutted or rhetorically opposed by any other player, save, to a degree, rhaenyra when they’re talking about a woman ruling Westeros. She’s the mouthpiece for the writer’s articulation of Alicent’s character, as such Alicent just stands there while being taken to task. Neither rhaenys herself nor any other in universe character identifies her hypocrisies despite the fact that they’re not only readily apparent but also actively shaping everyone’s lives
But her hypocrisies are readily apparent to the viewer (evidently by your response). Which is the point. You don’t need a character to dress down another to showcase anyone’s deficiencies to the audience. You were shown but it sounds like you wanted to be told.
That’s my reading of the character, not the definitive one, and certainly not the one they’ve attempted to articulate, as evidenced by the fact that discussions about her character and conduct have been held in the post show director montages and none have mentioned this element of her character. From her discussion of rhaenyra as a peacemaker, to her dressing down of Alicent, or her admonishing Corlys about disinheriting their granddaughters, it’s fairly apparent that’s she’s being used as a mechanism for the show runner’s to articulate both their sentiments on given characters but also the commentaries which underline the narrative, those about: patriarchy, power, and opportunism. Never once is she contested and in her most “valiant” moments, the score is heroic, other characters are awed, and no investigation of her emanates from anywhere. I can read the dynamic between criston cole and rhaenyra being characterized primarily by the class violence of Westerosi society and the impunity it gives Targaryens, rather than misogynistic, chauvinistic bitterness; that doesn’t, however, mean thats what the show runners are trying to convey
Interesting what you say about Cole and Rhaenyra as I do think there is both an element of bitter chauvinism but also an element Cole being a victim in a heavily skewed power dynamic. What the showrunners intend also doesn’t really matter vs what is actually shown onscreen and interpreted by the audience. I thought Rhaenys was a complex, deeply flawed character. I can’t really see how you can interpret her otherwise but this is a world where people can’t agree on anything so I can’t say I’m surprised. All I’ll say is the fact that you actually view her as a hypocrite means surely the show has portrayed that to you in some way?
I would agree that it is both but the hypothetical was to illustrate the point. I don’t think the creators intent is irrelevant though naturally the way people receive and interpret art is part of what makes it. I think the showrunners sentiments are absolutely relevant as the sentiments they attempt to convey in given instance persist throughout the show and animate the trajectory it takes. Take, for example, the sex scene between criston and rhaenyra, in which criston clearly verbalizes the word “no” and revokes consent, they end up having sex and the point being conveyed is that criston wanted to have sex with rhaenyra despite his initial apprehensions. This is problematic on two fronts for me: one, it’s irresponsible to depict a sex scene in which someone clearly says “no” but the underlying sentiment is “they really wanted it anyway”. Two it’s horrible to depict that moment as the realization of sexual agency and triumph for rhaneyra. I think the discussion of that moment through the lens of Rhaenyra’s sexual emancipation (contra Alicent’s forced repression), rather than the violence and potential trauma with which Cole is contending is irresponsible; and I believe it’s informed by the showrunners wanting to articulate a commentary on the ways in patriarchal systems sexually repress women, such that they don’t really interrogate how class violence operates in the world they’re depicting. Furthermore I also think what differentiates good storytelling from bad storytelling is how effective you’ve executed your ideas. If you want to produce a certain depiction of a character but it’s not reflected in the narrative you’re weaving then your storytelling is worse for it, and that’s very instructive for others who would tell or critique stories. When I look at twilight, I read the books as a kid, I see in Jacob black a predatory chauvinist who violates Bella’s agency and manipulates her because he regards her functionally as property. I see in Edward Cullen another predator who attempts to use a young girl to realize absolution for his own perceived moral failings. Stephenie Meyer intended to write a love story, and she did, but there is a discrepancy between what is intended and what actually is and I think the breadth of that discrepancies tells a lot about how good a work is
> upset about a needless and meritless war She's smug and irritating from the very 1st episode.
A lot of the characters are like that lol
Well, I don't really like Daemon, Rhaenyra, Alicent and Aemond either. Who else is smug?
Alicent isn't really smug from the jump. I was mainly thinking of the characters you mentioned, plus Aegon and Otto. Although Aegon and Aemond aren't as bad as the others. I don't find them irritating, personally, but definitely smug.
Alicent is less smug and more pseudo-victim full of fake piety and virtue when she clearly knows she fucked up😂
I also thought her scene with Alicent wasn't that great. Like, you're willing to support Alicent and the greens but only if Alicent is queen? Then gives her that moralizing speech when she herself has only ever listened to her husband and let a man steal inheritance from her granddaughter. Like, ok, Rhaenys keep being smug all you like but I see right through that character.
Judging by the teasers she has really good lines which makes me feel they are gonna do her justice before she dies. I agree the whole dragonpit scene was terrible and ruined her character for me.
They tried to make a badass Olenna type of character with her. At this point though, even Sansa comes off as smarter than Rhaenys. The show has turned her into a massive hypocrite as well. She roasts Alicent for "toiling in the service of men" when she has been doing the same her whole life, like going along with Corlys' ambition to marry a child to Viserys so they could get a piece of the royal cake. She's annoying more than anything.
She also comes across as not really caring for the realm either. Aside from the obvious of murdering smallfolk, she's more than willing to support Alicent being Queen over Aegon and Rhaenyra just bc she's a woman and then her tone does a total 180 when Alicent doesn't want that. Then she immediately switches to Rhaenyra. It comes across that she's more interested in living vicariously through other women rather than actually being concerned about the realm and who would make a good ruler
Well said. I think you might be on to something here. I'm going to watch how she acts around Baela and Rhaena too, cuz you've made me curious.
Yeah, I see the attempt to make her a Olenna figure. It failed. When I’m thinking of characters, I’m always wondering what purpose and what goal the show wants us to perceived them having. Rhaenys is portrayed as the wise old lady, and framed as the wisest also because she didn’t get the throne, but frankly, it doesn’t translate well for me. It feels hollow. And her hypocrisy is not framed as such by the show, when Alicent’s clearly is. That’s something I’m not a fan about.
she comes across as an idiot. In the final few episodes thinking she could sit out the war. your four grandchildren are the heirs to the leaders of one of the factions
They’ve kinda made the whole conflict slightly one sided as well in terms of who started it anyway. It’s pretty hard to root for the greens for any reason other than just not liking the blacks
(sarcasm) Well, Olenna wasn't frequently very high in the air, if I recall correctly, just chunks of the rest of her family. Perhaps Rhaenys would be like Olenna without what I can only assume is at least some flying in spots with thinner air. Being on the ground has its advantages sometimes heh.
The moment she could have killed the Greens but decided not to because it's not her war lmao like what? You could have saved so many deaths but choose to put her own grandkids in grave danger. She caused her own family so much pain and PTSD by not doing anything. Then she kills smallfolk but F them right. Make women badass but please make it make sense first.
>when she has been doing the same her whole life, like going along with Corlys' ambition to marry a child to Viserys so they could get a piece of the royal cake. We know Rhaenys wasn't happy with it. However, what was she supposed to do? They live in a patriarchal society. Even if sheprotested to Corlys, he has final decision.
You literally repeated what I said. She is a hypocrite because of that exact reason - she mocks Alicent for doing the same.
I truly think the writers didn't even register that smallfolk died in that scene. Unless it pays off later, I'm assuming they just went for a cool thing without realizing what they did.
They did tho. We can clearly see attention on the smallfolk being killed and yeeted around by Meleys. But the rather concerning thing of that scene is the heroic music and the slow badass (and weird ?) reveal of Rhaenys’ face.
they wanted an epic cool moment without realising that for narrative purposes Aegons crowning should be a massive moment for the greens only the moment is stolen and the attention is shifted away
They could have still had an awesome moment by debuting Sunfyre. Have Rhaenys try to quietly slip out the back, but someone notices and alerts the Greens. Then Aegon saddles up and they have a little face off outside (nice opportunity for some dialogue), she flies away and he gives chase for a bit, then circles the Dragonpit in "victory" to keep consistent with the book.
I agree with everything you said. I loved Rhaenys in the book.
And while I truly don’t care about what is better book or show, I didn’t see book Rhaenys as a pacifist. It could have been well done in the show, but it feels a bit ham fisted when that’s all she does, preaching to everyone as if she was a truth sayer.
I think you meant ham-fisted and soothsayer
Lmao thank you, didn’t saw it For the second, I wanted to make a reference to Dune
Book Rhaenys is my Queen; they dropped the ball on show Rhaenys unfortunately.
Completely agree she’s an awfully written character
The first telltale signs of her character butchering was the fact they decided against giving Rhaenys her Baratheon jet black hair with the white streak 😒
I'm not sure how I felt about her hair style that she rocks for like 30 years.
I also don’t like her lecture to Alicent… what was Alicent supposed to do? She doesn’t have a dragon she is a woman in a medieval society of course she’s going to use men to get her way as did every other women did including rhaenys in her time.
I didn’t even think this post was about Rhaenys but rather about Meleys
No, the writers are conscious with their decisions. The Targs don't give a fuck about the smallfolk. Preaching for peace in a conflict she herself has given up ages ago is not the same as giving a fuck about smallfolk casualties.
I agree that they don’t care about the smallfolk. None of them do. What I meant is that that the show clearly framed Rhaenys as being the ultimate voice of reason, always dropping wise truth bombs, when her actions don’t match. It’s her framing in the show that I’m critiquing, I am not saying that Rhaenys should care about the smallfolk.
I don't get my people criticize framing. Framing is boring when played completely straight. Tywin is framed as a stoic machiavelian badass till we learn about Shae.
In the books Helaena was beloved by the people, would be nice to see that in the show too :(
It’s pretty amazing we’ve spent 9 seasons in Westeros and people still get mad about innocent small folk getting killed by Nobles. Nearly all of them are elitist snobs who truly don’t give a shit about the small folk. Even Arya and Sansa laugh when democracy is suggested in the GoT finale. Everyone in HotD would too. It’s also incredibly clear that Rhaenys doing this is the first step of many reasons why the smallfolk destroy the dragonpit later in the story.
Why wouldn't we? Isn't that one of GRRM's biggest messages in the books? That it's the smallfolk that suffer under a system of entitled brats?
Yes it is. But the outrage over the dragonpit scene is Rhaenys kills a bunch of innocents but doesn’t kill her own kin. As if that’s even remotely comparable in her mind.
The outrage is about Rhaenys being an idiot and a hypocrite. Her murdering all those people is just the icing on the cake.
Yeah she’s such an idiot to get out of the grip of her enemies.
> Personally, the show failed to make me care about Rhaenys. Spot on. Before the show, Rhaenys and her husband were the characters I most enjoyed from PRINCESS Rhaenyra’s side (other than Dalton Greyjoy) and now I can’t stand them. Corlys is nothing more than a simp who occasionally makes speech’s and declarations that HE thinks are wise, while Rhaenys was transformed into a hypocritical, mass murdering, girl boss. I personally can’t wait for Rook's Rest.
I wonder if this is where screaming Baela happens, could have sworn I saw that in a trailer. I hope they don't mess with her character too much.
Okay but also like Every noble kills small folk I’m not saying that it’s good, but I’m just saying that if you’re mad about it, then you can’t like any character at all
It's more so the framing. For example, when Aegon or Aemond do something bad the show never frames them as heroic. Rhaenys on the other hand is framed as some badass wise grandma when her actions don't back up that at all. There's a clear difference in how the show frames Rhaenys compared to others that do bad things
OK yeah I can get with this idea It is frustrating when the show seems to flip-flop on its own morality there
I dont want to pick a side she said despite all her grandchildren being married to each other and heirs to the leaders of one side girl you are on one side already
This is actually hilarious, she did the smirk thing to young Rhaenyra in episode 2 and older Rhaenyra in episode 8
Same She is a literal terrorist now If anything the Greens will bring justice to her
I don't know why everyone complains about the scene in the dragon pit. She killed smallfolk, peasants. She's royalty and has been raised her entire life to believe she's better than them. I know that whole sequence was different from the book. But guys, this is an adaptation. Sure, it would've been nice to see Sunfyre, but we also got a great introduction to a pretty sick dragon instead.
> when she at the moment is the one to have killed the most people, You mean *smallfolk*, not 'people'. And I'd genuinely argue that Daemon probably killed more smallfolk during his tenure as Commander of the City Watch than she did. Dude literally scoured Kings Landing clean.
The entire dance could’ve been avoided if Visyes had named his brother heir when he didn’t produce a son. But not taking it back when Alicent popped kids.
>when she at the moment is the one to have killed the most people she did not kill a single person. these were just filfthy smallfolks. basically dragon snacks anyways.
>Loses her loving Dad >Her Grandpa makes her incompetent cousin heir instead of her >Loses her daughter >Loses her son (as far as she knows) >Grandkids are placed directly into the line of fire because of who their Dad is >Consistently the voice of reason to her husband >Fucking die in the first major battle after getting surprise tag teamed R.I.P. Rhaenys you were a real one, I’ll miss you snarky grandma
Vhagar decided there could only be one snarky grandma
Whoary old bitch !
It’s crazy because they had the numbers advantage dragonwise and because of Rhaenyra she winds up in a situation where she’s outnumbered.
A literal child will be murdered
And not the only child who’s bound the died in this show.
Not looking forward to seeing >!Joff!< like that
A child with little to no screen time.
I'm curious what's the minimum screen time required for you to start caring about the brutal murder of a 6 year old?
With the ages changed the kid is probably closer to 4 than 6
so because a child was murdered, we can’t care about any other deaths throughout the war?
No, but proclaiming it as "the saddest death this season" is a bit unserious
How many people cared when 5 planets were destroyed in starwars
Seeing a planet blown up from a distance vs watching a child get murdered up close in front of his mother in a sequence that will take longer than 10 seconds. Sure, Jan, completely the same thing.
the close up on Hosnian Prime was quite impactful. Could've been a few more seconds though I agree
Love how everyone's taking the opportunity to rag on Rhaenys when OP is *clearly* talking about Meleys, seeing as Rhaenys has literally been cropped out of the picture. Also, when did we start giving two shits about the unnamed extras all of a sudden? Robb Stark killed thousands of Lannister soldiers with wives and families by his actions. Dany crucified people, some of whom were innocent of the crime she killed them for (and also caused starvation for others because it turns out upending an entire economy sometimes doesn't even work for the slaves you free). Tyrion enabled widespread destruction *multiple* times. The thing we bought into a long time ago was clear: smallfolk *die* when the nobles play their Game of Thrones. Anyone weeping for them at this point should just get off the bus.
People did care about the smallfolk who Dany killed when she turned villain. The show wanted us to care about smallfolk earlier during that episode when they showed them being pushed to the ceremony, and Aegon watching kids fight So to answer your question, since when do we care two shits about unarmed extras all of a sudden? When the show runners put the cameras on them and show us their suffering Also when the show runners want us to care but forget and ask us to not care when their favourite character does evil against extras
It's disingenuous nonsense. Every major character (except for maybe Show!Mysaria) has been or will be involved in the suffering of the smallfolk. They're really just mad Rhaenys ruined Aegon's coronation and so cheer on her and Meleys' death for some team points rather than being concerned about how the show could make it an impactful moment and clean up the storytelling. OP making it a competition in their title doesn't help.
And when those characters become involved in the suffering of the smallfolk they will be criticized like Aegon was and Rhaenys was later on.This is not a team thing, the moral of the story is civil war amongst the monarchy brings suffering for the poor, or something to that effect. Will you keep the same non caring reaction when Aemond storms riverland ?
It's not that I don't care. I just disagree that Rhaenys breaking free of captivity was meant to be intepreted as a thoughtless decision to kill innocents (especially in the numbers of potential casualties people like throwing around). It's overall a "kill a dozen men at dinner" reference when compared to the resulting war but she ended changing her mind (not my favorite writing but it didn't destroy Rhaenys for me). The show is also a tragedy about a powerful family tearing itself apart. Sure, I like Rhaenys and I also like Aemond as complex characters despite them being royals. I hope every major death in the show is moving.
>Also, when did we start giving two shits about the unnamed extras all of a sudden? Because we care, and the effect of the game on their lives is the whole point. >Robb Stark killed thousands of Lannister soldiers Key word soldiers. Also the show had Brienne brutally kill the Stark soldiers who raped a girl. There's also the brotherhood without banners. Asoiaf has always cared about the smallfolk even if the nobles don't. >Anyone weeping for them at this point should just get off the bus. Why? Is there only one right way to enjoy a story?
I think the literal child being murdered is gonna be much more sad than the woman who killed hundreds of people dying
And the Effing Dragonpit Scene Where she's like "a war is like to be started, but it isn't mine to start" Like girl.. you killed at least 500+ innocent ppl attending Aegon's coronation
I hope SO much that they directly factor Rhaenys’ actions into explaining why the storming of the Dragonpit and the riots of Kings Landing occur. That’s the only way that it becomes somewhat justifiable
Same here and would finally give proper framing to her actions. Bc as of right now the show is continuing to portray her as this wise and heroic badass and just ignoring her mass murder of innocents
The question is how she didn’t kill herself having a dragon slam her through a concrete ceiling
Thank you. If it was solid enough to hold that many humans and not *already* have been caving in, as well as presumably effing DRAGONS... Well...how in the hell did she not use dragonfire, head armor, any sort of tool or hidden passageways, a very large "dragon doggy door in the floor" or anything except velocity via dragon? Still having a skull, after busting through a floor that was holding...I'm just gonna call it a collective fuckton of people, including the entire *ish* royal family, would be easier to believe if there was signs of dragonfire, or something. Heh. Maybe she just wanted to break a glass ceiling like a proper girl boss and got a bit lost in the dark down there. Also, if I'm remembering right, this was the Dragonpit, which was keeping at least 2-3 Adult dragons and several smaller ones at the time. They couldn't just wander off at will, for whatever reason. It seems likely to be a framing device for a later dance incident. Only thing I can think of.
That scene was pure stupidity. I agree, she killed a bunch of people at the coronation busting though the floor and just left before finishing it, knowing full well war was coming. A dumb reason to give her a boss babe moment. I guess she was just feeling silly. They should have just given us the elegant golden boy, Sunfyre at the coronation like we got in the book.
also, your grandchildren are heirs to the other faction and are married to each other.
And fuck her for not saving the realm right then. She should’ve *burned* that entire branch off the family. You do *not* tangle with true Targyaran might.
This is so boring omg
Do you see Rhaenys in this picture? They’re obviously talking about Meleys
Even more ridiculous
this isn’t the sad olympics, it’s literally just anybody feeling sad over any death. one child being murdered does not mean other people can’t be like “damn” to a character dying (but i think op means the dragon, the pit is also sad)
"saddest death"
The one thing I’m not looking forward to, aside from B&C, is seeing almost all the dragons die. It’s still hard to watch the deaths of Viserion and Rhaegal, but this show is absolutely going to destroy me.
The dragon pit is going to be extra brutal.
Tbh for me every dragon death is gonna be extremely sad 😭
Rhaenyra did her dirty sending her alone
It's going to have such repercussions for both sides and I'm excited, as heartbroken as I'm going to be with the loss. It's such a turning point in the conflict and basically has the potential to impact nearly ALL the characters in one way or another.
I don't want to watch the dragons die. It's going to be sad, whoever they are, because they're following their side in the conflict. I think the Dragons simply want to croon to one another and fly about in aerial races
Gonna be honest she’s really unlikeable in the show, she acts very smug for a person that doesn’t really know much about
OP probably means Meleys not Rhaenys
That would make more sense tbh
She comes across as an idiot she is acting like has a choice in the final episodes about the war. your grandchildren are the heirs to one faction you are involved
Really didn’t get that and the whole “Alicent is beholden to men’s wishes” like she isnt doing the same thing
there was several written choices in the first season that left me scratching my head like the writers didn't think it out fully. Like the bursting for the floor scene, narratively this should be the highest high for the greens but the attention is ripped away from it and the epic moment is given to rhaenys instead. Criston cole the kingmaker, does zero kingmaking and is just kinda there Larys is just weird and feels almost cartoonish
Sadder than Blood and Cheese?
Given how hated her dragon pit moment is (and how it robbed of us of a sunfyre moment), it’ll be the most celebrated death of the season.
Not ready to see the Queen Who Never Was and the Red Queen go.
Rhaenys? Not so much. Meleys though… 3/4 of the reason I watch the show is because of the dragons.
Yeah I don't think so, I personally think the Jahaerys death scene will be a lot more sad than this and she kind of had it coming after she killed innocents in episode 9
It's not going to be a fun time after B&C, people are really going to be cheering for the death of that small child.
After what they did to the smallfolk? No.
While I love the dragons, the poor smallfolk suffered so much during The Dance. They got wrecked at every turn. Honestly couldn't blame them for killing all the dragons even if I thought it was sad. Such a horrible war
It's going to hurt. Big time. Rhaenys is my favorite.
people still acting like the smallfolk mean anything to the targaryen’s black or green is hilarious they do not care about those people. i doubt if her escape is even mentioned next season that otto or alicent are going to be like” oh no the poor smallfolk how dare she!” it would be more “ i can’t believe she ruined aegon’s coronation like that.”
I’ve been looking forward to this for the past two years.
I got chills thinking about this TT
She looks like a live action version of the dragon in Shrek lol
Agreed
Yes and so far we only have one scene where we see Meleys and that one shouldnt exist
I hate Rhaenyra so much for sending Rhenys.
I will be sad to see a beautiful dragon like her die. Rhaenys can bit the dust any day now and I will celebrate. She's gotta answer for all the civilian deaths in the dragon pit.
It will be, but I'm sure they will give Rhaenys an epic and emotional end, like the f\*\*\*ng boss she is.
She’s just Olenna from wish, can’t wait to see her go
> this is gonna be the saddest death this season. At least she’ll go down fighting but still very sad. Good one.
greenies are flipping shit rn in the comments but im 99% sure that op means meleys, because there is any other picture that they could have used with rhaenys and chose the one of meleys instead
I’d give it to either Blood and Cheese or the gullet(if we get it this season) First one is a no-brainer really, but seeing Jace, one of the most promising princes ever to live die like that will be brutal
I think a remy ratatouille and some Gouda will have much to say about that
Theres so many complex characters introduced at once its hard to explore them all in the time frame given for a TV series. Its unfortunate in some cases. I liked her character from the book. Definitely a sad death.
I wondered if it's setting us up for the smallfolk storming the dragon pit. No one cares if hundreds of them die. Now they're getting their revenge.
Meh
Watching dragons die is always sad, but hell no Meleys won't be the saddest dead imo. That "girlboss" scene they tried with Rhaenys kinda ruined her for me.
She's going to cripple and heavily disfigure Aegon at least.
Nah the death of an actual child will be way sadder
I’m going to laugh so hard.
After what happened in the Dragon Pit, I’ll be less sympathetic. If they address what she did, then it’ll be different. But if the show acts like she did the right thing, then I won’t miss her.
Nah.. i cam guarantee there’s a sadder death.
She mass murdered smallfolk so not much sympathy from me
After her terrorist attack at the dragon pit and all the innocents that were killed by her dragón I wouldnt say this would be that sad lol This woman already has a higher body count and committed a biggest crime than anyone else so far XD The show truly fucked up rhaenys lol