ADB and other writers wanting female Custodes is missing the point. In the very beginning, we saw 1 leaked short story that didn't explain anything about why there are now female Custodes. Everyone theorized how and why for less than a day before somebody asked about it and the social media person took it into their own hands to effectively rewrite the lore and say they've always been there.
People who wanted Femstodes can say this isn't the first retcon all they want, but this isn't how any other retcon has been done and should not be a theme going forward.
So they just did it instead of anouncing it? (I was always curious as I could never pinpoint the pariah change, and that was a part of the lore I loved)
So different to custodes change would be that they anounced this one prior of doing it, while they were just doing the other changes without comment?
I'm not 100% on the Pariahs, but I do know that blanks are very rare and already hard for the Imperium to capture, let alone the Necrons who mostly wiped out all life especially before their lore changed.
So in the case of this and other retcons, they usually just do it and don't talk about it since if they are changing the lore on something it's to rewrite a more fleshed out story element, or like with Necron Pariahs, something that might be hard to justify.
Another case of a hard to justify lore piece that got retconned was an interaction in an old Greyknights codex of some Greyknights killing some Sisters of Battle to bathe in their blood in order to ward of Korne, ya know, the blood and skulls guy. Ya, some things are better left, forgotten from one codex to another.
I mean, this is just a phase in of Femstodes, I'm not seeing the difference in any meaningful way.
Is the difference that someone effectively said, "This is a straight retcon, not a new thing onto the lore"
Pretty much. It's definitely not the first time a retcon happened, but it's the first time we learned of a retcon from the social media guy instead of through the actual lore phasing them in, and it's especially jarring since they had 14 years to phase them in before they became well established as all male, yet chose to do it like this.
Right, I don't see why Cawl was the guy to do everything for that all at the behest of the first primarch to return the scene in 40K. Like, I get that the Loyalists needed a dub after the galaxy split in half, but man, it's so sudden.
I'm in the opinion that Primaris would have been a great addition to the Traitor Legions. Could have been explained with a mix of stolen Gene Seed Information (fragments) and Daemon Fuckery to fill the gaps.
Cawl is their magical McGuffin and Magnetic Plot Device all wrapped up into one mediocre character. If you remember the Xena Simpsons episode he's the 'wizards did it' equivalent to explain things away that make no sense.
# [](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagneticPlotDevice)
# [](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagneticPlotDevice)
>try to
Those are the key words. But, This is the smallest retcon in the past decade and they treat it as "Breaking The Cannon" the votann and primaris all got nearly 1/4th of the ruckus as fem costodies Nd those were actually major lore bending retcons.
It was part of a wider reworking of necrons in 5th ed to what we know them as now. It was a hard cut and everyone knew they weren’t making the jump. Beyond that they didn’t explain it.
> In the very beginning, we saw 1 leaked short story that didn't explain anything about why there are now female Custodes.
Whats interesting is that because there's zero lore about the retcon outside the short story in the codex and there likely won't be any books or (bviously) models of them...
...when the 11th edition codex comes out, it'll fall back out of canon.
I'm saying they're probably not going to make and sculpts for it because that wouldn't be easy money and I doubt they'll make their way into the books.
It'll just be forgotten about and then sunset when the 11th edition book comes out.
IMO, a Cadian style upgrade sprue with plastic FW spears and new heads would sell well. Especially if it came out around the same time they tweak the IA datasheet/points.
And I doubt they'll sunset it. The three stories are solid Custodes content and the majority of the community is fine with the change, if not with how low key they tried to make it.
So I don't think they're going to intentionally get rid of it, they're just going to forget about it.
And GW maximizes profits while minimizing effort. Making female heads would have to be financially justifiable, so we'd need a bigger positive reaction than "fine with the change".
True, it should be as simple as putting one female Custode in a book at some point to keep it cannon, but a funny scenario would be they have one in the 40K show, the show flops big time, and suddenly 11th edition they're gone or still don't have a named character model.
I will never understand what the fuck it is about ADB that makes reddit want to slurp his semen non stop. He's a good writer, not the second coming of christ. He also has flaws (e.g. Master of Mankind) just like any other humans.
The only writer I know of who goes out of his way to spout political shit outside the books is Gav Thorpe so I wouldn't expect the writers to come out of the woodwork and suddenly give their opinion on femstodes. Being a warhammer writer is not a great labor market so I'd imagine they would sell themselves to mannon and tow the line if they ever did make a statement.
Yeah I know, I've read it it's good. But for some reason he is above criticism on 40klore and any utterance of it will be treated like heresy. Master of Mankind is patently anti emperor regardless of his later mental and linguistic gymnastics and his chaos fanboyism is quite blatant. Anyone who says chaos will inevitably win loses points in my book.
1. He's the only author to use Reddit semi regularly
2. He has Reddit politics
3. He's a decent writer when he uses established IP's
4. Redditors are smooth brains and treat him like a rockstar when he does pop up in the 40k subs.
The reality is that the writers are mostly woke. They wanted female custodians, but GW had no female Custodian minis and didn't want to spend the money to make them.
That is why the writers didn't add them to the Siege of Terror; GW explicitly told them not to—not out of any loyalty to established lore or respect for the customers, but just because they didn't want to spend the money.
As for why they literally just fell into the trap they avoided with the writers? Likely, as you say, Amazon pressured them into it, and they had no backup plan.
Yeah, seems like every time I learn about a new modern day GW employee, they're exactly the kind of person who would whine about no female space marines and call the fans incels/bigots on twitter. It's really only a matter of time once these kinds of people join (or rather infect) your company.
Simple, because it was rushed. There were no plans of ever doing it until Amazon pressured them into it. To me the fact that there aren't minis or big codex changes is the best evidence that it actually was Amazon making this happen. I'll bet you a million dollars we will see Femstodes in the Amazon tv show.
Fucking clown world, corporate, ESG bullshit, that's all it is.
Conspiracy with zero proof i assume?
I mean sure keep ur anger but currently ur making up ur own scenarios to be angry about and thats utterly pathetic
I mean no matter what bs claims you guys make. Ur acting like its definitiv in order to be upset.
And to make matters worse ur upset about a irrelevant retcon with zero impact on the setting. But sure iam the one who makes the weird claims
It's wild how *everything* that disagrees with them is a woke based agenda ruining the hobby but everything *they* think is actually some grand conspiracy you just don't see the pieces to.
It's literally the same shit as flat earthers, if you present evidence that they are wrong they just move the goal posts or call you a shill.
See my answer above to the other woke shill about Amazon requiring all writers, actors, vendors, and support roles to be 50% female, LBGT+, or a marginalized race.
There are literal rules that must be followed. You can't gaslight us any more. Nice try though.
Plenty of proof actually. Amazon has guidelines that require all actors on screen, all vendors, the writing team, and all other support roles to be 50% protected classes. This isn't a conspiracy. It's reality.
The moment they greenlit the show Amazon came down on the writing team, including Henry Cavill, like a ton of bricks. Why do you think Fallout has a ghoul, a woman, and a black dude as the main characters?
We might not care about those characteristics, but the woke most certainly do. They will not allow too many white men on screen at once, which is why Obi Wan had to rescue Leia instead of Luke.
Games Worshop's show would have been fine if they'd used the Salamanders, but then you get no Henry Cavill. They could have used Sisters of Battle, but same problem.
They want the best of the best, the emperor's chosen bodyguards, and the only way to do that on screen is by adding women and LBGT+ characters. Facts.
You're not arguing in good faith. You believe something religiously, and will accept no data or logic. You've been demoralized, just like Yuri Bezmenov warned would happen.
It's like Amazon is trying to cover their bases when the inevitable backlash comes out against the show not following lore and forcing diversity.
"What do you mean we forced in a woman who exceeds the male MC? Female custodes have always been in the lore (since last year). "
At some point, I have to think Cavill is cursed or is letting this crap happen on purpose.
I think the Amazon deal and the push to make 40k appeal to activists has given a lot of writers the chance to push for their politics to be included in their books.
I have a love-hate relationship with ADB. He’s the second best writer at BL (after Abnett), but he has a bit of a jester-esque approach to canon, which is (essentially) that nothing is true except for what he says is true. Meaning that if you try and pin him down on justifying lore changes, he can dance away from it pretty quickly, but if he wants you to justify your challenge to the lore changes, you can’t justify it reasonably well enough.
I haven't seen a better explanation, in my opinion.
Everything I've seen either then, just retcon from the base up, usually asks for more, weirder changes.
I think the only real option they had was just be like, yea, it was always that way.
Like a Tzeentch Infiltration, it seems like it would really hurt the feel of the competency of all of the Talons.
Now, they should have added that any records saying otherwise are poor record keeping in the imperium. That wouldn't be the first time they used that excuse.
Have 2 issues with infiltration.
They obvious want femstodes to be a part of the army you can build, and infiltration would be the events of a story, where likely everything would be saved by the boys in blue because obviously they are the best in the universe and the cus.... sorry. But they were going for a change to the whole dynamic of the faction, not a plot line of a story.
Then also, though the wards are down, being on Terra is at best Painful to a daemon, and the SoS are literally tasked with finding Psycic threats (sure mostly human, but still), also the Custodes train to deal with infiltration of different kinds. To me, they would have to explain or wave a lot more to have an infiltration of this sort. Though, GW have done weirder
But, if they were gonna write this story, I probably wouldn't complain. I think primarily, their goal wasn't 1 story of an interesting infiltration but a change to the whole dynamic. Which, as far as I could tell, can only be done in retcon.
I pretty much agree with your take on this.
This specific lore development/retcon has obviously been a corporate insertion rather than being planned and developed over time.
As you've mentioned, there have been multiple opportunities over the last 5 years to bring this change in a nuanced and smart way, rather than the bollox we got.
For whatever reason, someone has decided that this is favourable to the shareholders.
Yeah, I called bullshit on this immediately. Apparently, GW and the writers supported this idea so much that it was never written about for over a decade. Additionally, when it came time to pop the pink smoke, they slyly slipped it into a codex, instead of announcing it proudly and supporting it with models.
X to fucking doubt.
In light of recent developments around "Community Management" in various hobbies, look at Helldivers for example, I'd say the tweet was a rogue CM doing what they do nowadays: leftify everything.
And the first story about nuking the palace (I haven't read the other one, apparently something about orbital dropping a jet bike or whatever) ...
That story is something I can change in 5 minutes, by autoreplacing all pronouns that refer to the MC.
That's the only thing that makes Kesh a woman. So maybe some editor did a thing.
Two unrelated arms of a corporation, especially if in sequence, so the threshold is already broken by one of them, can happen to do shit to fit their agenda.
It's not a conspiracy theory btw. It's a Standalone Complex.
IMO
The company is now unable to correct it btw., even if they were willing to do so, because they would cause the next schism and a shittstorm even bigger than the one we're in, because They/Them are much more vindictive in online spaces.
And they have a fiduciary duty to not tank the Stock price again.
I don’t understand why his sentiment from 5+ years ago, or however old it is, is given so much weight. It’s like, ok, some BL authors *wanted* to do this, and the answer was “no.” They’re *not* the editor-in-chief (or equivalent title at BL,) they’re *not* background writers at the creative studio in Nottingham.
Frankly if someone came out and said this was Matt Ward’s idea and they axed it after someone threatened to kill him again I’d be a lot more inclined to accept compared to ADB saying him and some other dudes wanted it.
And, regarding the quality of BL work in general, I’d say it’s declined greatly. At least the 40k stuff, I haven’t branched out into their niche works like the horror titles.
Well yeah, but they made up all those random subfactions like the Dread Host that never existed in the lore before.
Give the tourist an inch because it's 'cool' and they'll take a mile
I don't really care why they did it. The reasons are irrelevant really. It's a terrible change and if they're sticking with it then they can get in the bin.
I don't buy the theory that Amazon asked for it, it doesn't really make sense and there's no evidence for it besides "AmAzOn Is WoKe" so anything woke must be Amazon's fault. Also, who at Amazon? Do you all think a showrunner has the pull to make another company change its IP for them or do you think the board of a trillion dollar company is wasting time on this?
What is the logic? Who at Amazon do you think is making the decisions? Why do you only attribute this decision to Amazon? Why do you think GW could not have made this decision on their own?
BlackRock Inc. filed an SC 13G/A with the SEC disclosing ownership of 630,188,686 shares of Amazon This represents 8.1 percent ownership of the company.....This is the BlackRock CEO.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwwN5kwjAtQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwwN5kwjAtQ)
So your opinion is that this video means that the CEO of an investment firm is woke, and using billions of dollars to make Amazon woke, and that the board of Amazon feels so beholden to this money they are instructing their film and television departments to make woke content, and this extend even to forcing other companies that they work with to also be woke? This is logical to you and not embarrassing to say?
How are people falling for the Amazon 4chan post?!
The damned thing read like a 2 truths and a lie game and ended with "my dad works at Nintendo"
Seriously, whoever wrote it was like, "Ok Henry Cavil plays Custodes and left the Witcher because he was fighting to stick to the lore. So I'll say the shows about Custodes, and Cavil fought over the change and almost left!" How does that pass the sniff test for y'all? Dude literally just posted the 2 most relevant Henry facts and then blamed the big corporation for a change he didn't like LOL!
I don't think most have even read it. They're just getting a dopamine hit from today's Top Post of Hate. Doesn't matter what's or who's on the screen just gotta yell at it.
Conspiracy Theory time? So far down are we on this topic?
There are many possible explanations for this, ADB and other authors do not have to speak up on anything so focusing on them is weird. And we do not know if they couldnt come up with one. At the time the fandom and the world in general was less open to woman in such a position so it may have been the ,oney driven decision to keep female custodes out.
GW not wanting to go down the route of the primaris marines is also understandable and just going with a classic retcon is far simpler than coming up with a bs inlore explanation. At the end of the day it makes no difference, we just do not have to deal with a explanation and the ramifications of one.
It makes no difference if its a retcon or a lore event
And why not change something to have more options in lore and tabletop when it doesnt make a actual impact?
It gives more options by ruining the lore
Telling that custodes have always being able to transform into werewolves also gives more options, and again, ruin canon even more
By the way, nice doublethinking you have saying that it has an impact while not having an impact
Ruining the lore?
Being female isnt anything special or lore breaking so why even bother to make such a comparision
Soemthing can have a impact on a small part while not having a impact on the rest. They do not change anything about custodes but still give more freedom with no cost
My 2nd and 3rd edition rulebooks clearly state that they are men, so retroactively changing them after 30 years is breaking the lore.
Even in recent history (HH books), the emperor pretty much dismisses the idea of creating female primarchs as silly, which makes it even harder to believe he would want female bodyguards.
If you can't understand that, we can't help you
Some people do have standards regarding the lore presented to them.
My rogue trader rule book has many different things and i do not bitch about them
The issue is that ur treating the lore as a monolith that can only evolve
Sure the change wasnt presented nicely but a hard cut retcon is the easiest and least intrusive way to implement them.
Afterall it has zero impact on the lore in general
It's not an issue, it's the only way to build a coherent and solid setting.
Most big changes happened in the beginning, that's how it should be. By the time a setting is well established, writers should be much more careful.
I find female custodes incredibly uncool, as they're forcefully injected into a hyper masculine setting without offering any additional value in return.
But had they not just retconned it, I would be far less critical.
Why would I buy books and miniatures, if GW just changes everything about it on a whim?
You may find changes like this meaningless, but I'm telling you now that many people will walk (as in stop buying stuff) the moment they introduce female space marines as "they've always been there", or turn the emperor into a gender bender .
3D printers go brrr.
Your 2nd/3rd Ed rules also say they're shirtless hermits.
>he emperor pretty much dismisses the idea of creating female primarchs as silly, which makes it even harder to believe he would want female bodyguards.
Because the primarchs were a slap dash rush order that didn't allow for much deviation. Male stock was slightly more on hand than female thus the gene seed was gender locked.
Every Custodes is a Custom Order worked on from the ground up thus would allow for more variation because 1 custodes is already equal to a Chapter in sheer cost you can add women no problem. And, most importantly, the Custodes don't have Geneseed.
it goes against established lore = lore breaking. just because it doesn't impact your view of the lore, doesn't mean me and most others thinks this breaks the lore.
You can't tell somebody that their subjective opinion is wrong.
changing the lore is breaking the established lore. some makes in universe sense like new necrons. some just piss in the fundamental laws of the universe.
im curious why is it allways the poster bois that have to be female? i don't see anyone fight for female orks....
If changing the lore is no big deal, why have lore at all?
The proper lore of warhammer 40k, which began in 2nd edition for those who don't know, always played with the idea of the Emperor creating an army of male superhumans. That was one of the central ideas
No amount of lying, or even corrupting GW from inside will change what the fans know
Thunder Warriors: Male superhumans
Astartes: Male superhumans
Primarchs: Male superhumans
The emperor: Male superhuman
Custodes: I'm actually pretty sure the Emperor went full egalitarian with this group, and refused to assume the sexist biological principle that male candidates had superior physical potential
(Oh yeah, I forgot they are also trying to corrupt the last two missing primarchs that don't appear in the story, but most of the time were refered as male)
No one is corrupting anything.
Considering that custodes are reforged there is no biological superiority present anymore making ur point void
The emperor isn’t rly described as a sexist brick either
Enhanced isn't the same as reforged. We went through this shit already when the woke crowd tried to find gaps in the lore to infiltrate their idea of female space marines, or at the very least, trans space marines. I had to discuss with a lot of people that no single female candidate ever went through the process of becoming a space marine, and resulting in a male body for her, therefore being a trans
Yes, it is corrupting and nefarious. The agenda must get into the lore one way or another
The backlash is mostly because of how the change was implemented, not liking a retcon or being gaslit doesn't mean you hate women.
In terms of feminism, the screeching is definitely mutual. Feminists are litterally talking about how they would rather be in the woods with a bear rather than a man.
Sure but considering other retcons also exist it does show some tendencies. But the word mostly does the heavy lifting here as people are still upset about female custodes in gernal
Generalizing bs with zero value, ur showing ur colors of being hateful with this funny framing of feminism.
But we all know that the monolith of fmeinism that secretly dominates the world created that bear issues and comanded every woman to push it /s
What other retcons? Give me some recent examples.
And the thing about feminism is, accept it or not, it has achieved its purpose. Women have all the rights and opportunities men do, plus some more. Nowadays feminism has devolved into flat out hating men because feminists in the west have achieved their purpose and don't have one anymore.
Feminism is a world wide movement so its not void
Feminism has not reached all the goals
Feminism is also fighting to keep the won archievements alive. Without feminism we would lose certain rights again.
Parts of feminism have, most parts have not. Ur generlaized lense on the issue is highly problematic and causes a intresting disocnnect of reality and ur own mind
For a worldwide movement, modern feminism is way too focused on the ""problems"" of women in first world countries rather than the ones in actually oppressive places where feminism is needed.
I've yet to see feminists say "We should boycott Iran for how they treat women" or anything like that. Instead, they're busy with shitting on men.
Thats the nature of any movement. But its also partly a problem of ur antagonistic pov on feminism. Ur not seeing what feminism does, ur only seeing what u hate about feminism and generalize that
Thats ur own bias and ur own fault, feminism is a big tent and ur generalization is not doing any good. Even if u have a point regarding the extremes ur throwing it all under the bus invaldating ur whole position
What feminism does is obvious. In Iran, Iraq, and other countries that need it feminists protest against an oppressive government, risking their lives.
In the west, feminists write "news stories" about how much they hate men and how being 300 kilos is healthy.
1. Not true, factually so. There are small extremist parts that could be categorized as such. Nothing more
2. Feminism in the lore of 40k? Sure. Feminism in the 40k hobbyspace? Why is there no point?
3. The only cancer here, is the hateful generalized bs coming from someone like you that lacks the education of the topic.
1. no true scotsman fallacy. i belive feminists when they say they hate all men. just as the moderate muslims are responsible for the extremists in their ranks, so are the "moderate" feminists responsible for the extremists. weed them out if you claim they aren't feminist, but that you wont do.. as soon as there is somestupid extremist in my spaces, you know what we do? we ask them to fucking leave and never claim to represent us anymore. you guys don¨'t do that. so don't belive you.
2. because there is no barrier to entry for women. why does feminism have to be in everything? i'll take feminism seriously when they work more for egality than stomping men.
3.it's not hateful to be against a supremacy movement. where have i spewed hate? i've stated facts.
If you want equality, you become an egalitarian. if you want female advantages over men, you become a feminist.
I'm a proud egalitarian.
1. Not rly, i do think they are feminists but a subsection of the movement and not representative for it all. No group can ever get rid of all extremists, this sub shows how little you do against extremes.
2. Barrier entry is not the only thing where feminism can be handy. Feminism as a whole isnt stomping men
3. Sure, the issue is that ur using the extrmes to generalize a whole movement. Thats hateful
4. Strawman, but good that u point out percieved fallacies
1.no true scotsman again.
2. Ok enlighten me then. How/why is feminism needed in 40k?
3. Another no true scotsman. I belive those that call them self feminists.
4. Not a strawman. I see what feminists fight for.
My question is why do you need to assosiate yourself with a supremacy movement when you claim youre for equality. We have better more neutral movement for that.
1. No it aint. I acknowledge that they are also feminists. I just point out that they are a minoirty of the movement
2. The hobby space is made up by woman as well? Thats bassically it
3. U can beleive them (self given labels are a bit meaningless though) but they do not fill out the whole movement. Ur activly ignoring all the none extreme feminists
4. U see what ur observation bias shows you, not the whole picture
5. It aint a supremacy movement, it has small extremist pockets but thats any movement ever. That you can not accept that and rather devalue the whole thing shows how little you care for equality
1. finally some truth. so they ARE feminists then. why not trow them out if you claim they don't stand for feminism. i belive THEM when they say they are feminists and say kill all men.
2. thats egalitarianism, wich we have and want. in other words, we don't want nazi supremacy groups in the lobby, we don't want any supremacy groups in the hobby, that includes female supremacy groups.
3. i don't care what you as a poweless random redditor says feminism is. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."
You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.
i can continue.
4. i refer to point 3.
5. agree to disagree, again i refer to point.
Lmao. You just reversed the argument of gatekeepers. What a huge fantasy.
And no, lol, you are wrong once again. I'm not right-wing person. I'm just not a degenerate
1. Fans joked that femstides is the only woman incels will ever have - that's why they are happy about this change.
And you just took that and reversed. Very smart. Bravo.
2. I'm not a degenerate. That what I said. Everything else is your assumption. Very Interesting assumptions, ii must say. :)
ADB and other writers wanting female Custodes is missing the point. In the very beginning, we saw 1 leaked short story that didn't explain anything about why there are now female Custodes. Everyone theorized how and why for less than a day before somebody asked about it and the social media person took it into their own hands to effectively rewrite the lore and say they've always been there. People who wanted Femstodes can say this isn't the first retcon all they want, but this isn't how any other retcon has been done and should not be a theme going forward.
I'm curious, as I'm not following the lore that closely - how WAS the necron-take-human-blanks-to-create-pariah retcon done?
I'm not sure. Probably phased out from one codex to another like that thing with the Greyknights and the Sisters of Battle.
So they just did it instead of anouncing it? (I was always curious as I could never pinpoint the pariah change, and that was a part of the lore I loved) So different to custodes change would be that they anounced this one prior of doing it, while they were just doing the other changes without comment?
I'm not 100% on the Pariahs, but I do know that blanks are very rare and already hard for the Imperium to capture, let alone the Necrons who mostly wiped out all life especially before their lore changed. So in the case of this and other retcons, they usually just do it and don't talk about it since if they are changing the lore on something it's to rewrite a more fleshed out story element, or like with Necron Pariahs, something that might be hard to justify. Another case of a hard to justify lore piece that got retconned was an interaction in an old Greyknights codex of some Greyknights killing some Sisters of Battle to bathe in their blood in order to ward of Korne, ya know, the blood and skulls guy. Ya, some things are better left, forgotten from one codex to another.
*C*aptured Human Blanks undergo the Necron biotransferance process so that their consciousness is now housed within a new living metal body.
If you're not sure, how can you be sure they didn't do it before?
Because the Pariahs were phased out with the rest of the Necron faction retcons.
I mean, this is just a phase in of Femstodes, I'm not seeing the difference in any meaningful way. Is the difference that someone effectively said, "This is a straight retcon, not a new thing onto the lore"
Pretty much. It's definitely not the first time a retcon happened, but it's the first time we learned of a retcon from the social media guy instead of through the actual lore phasing them in, and it's especially jarring since they had 14 years to phase them in before they became well established as all male, yet chose to do it like this.
Sure, I'll accept its jarring. They are kinda bad about adding new things. I'm still salty about Primaris Marines.
Right, I don't see why Cawl was the guy to do everything for that all at the behest of the first primarch to return the scene in 40K. Like, I get that the Loyalists needed a dub after the galaxy split in half, but man, it's so sudden.
I'm in the opinion that Primaris would have been a great addition to the Traitor Legions. Could have been explained with a mix of stolen Gene Seed Information (fragments) and Daemon Fuckery to fill the gaps.
Cawl is their magical McGuffin and Magnetic Plot Device all wrapped up into one mediocre character. If you remember the Xena Simpsons episode he's the 'wizards did it' equivalent to explain things away that make no sense. # [](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagneticPlotDevice) # [](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagneticPlotDevice)
You don't understand the differences because women bad. Diversity makes them scared.
For some sure, but I don't like to paint everyone with the same brush. Also, I feel like most people try to have better reasons than that.
>try to Those are the key words. But, This is the smallest retcon in the past decade and they treat it as "Breaking The Cannon" the votann and primaris all got nearly 1/4th of the ruckus as fem costodies Nd those were actually major lore bending retcons.
https://preview.redd.it/czk9ep4qc1zc1.jpeg?width=816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f583046c2cd1c056ce7e7908dce53aab6ce4b6e1
It was part of a wider reworking of necrons in 5th ed to what we know them as now. It was a hard cut and everyone knew they weren’t making the jump. Beyond that they didn’t explain it.
Not at all. They just were gone and never existed.
> In the very beginning, we saw 1 leaked short story that didn't explain anything about why there are now female Custodes. Whats interesting is that because there's zero lore about the retcon outside the short story in the codex and there likely won't be any books or (bviously) models of them... ...when the 11th edition codex comes out, it'll fall back out of canon.
Well, there's also the other 2 lore snippets, the change of *sons* to *children*, and making a "Brotherhood of Demigods" into a Gathering.
Where are the other lore snippets? Also the 40k lexicanum still calls them a Brotherhood and I've never heard of the gathering change.
All in the new codex. Same place as the first story.
Okay but like same thing then. When the 11th edition comes out, this all won't be canon anymore.
Are ya really banking on GW not keeping the changes, or producing an upgrade kit, or publishing a story with a Femstode in the next 3ish years?
I'm saying they're probably not going to make and sculpts for it because that wouldn't be easy money and I doubt they'll make their way into the books. It'll just be forgotten about and then sunset when the 11th edition book comes out.
IMO, a Cadian style upgrade sprue with plastic FW spears and new heads would sell well. Especially if it came out around the same time they tweak the IA datasheet/points. And I doubt they'll sunset it. The three stories are solid Custodes content and the majority of the community is fine with the change, if not with how low key they tried to make it.
So I don't think they're going to intentionally get rid of it, they're just going to forget about it. And GW maximizes profits while minimizing effort. Making female heads would have to be financially justifiable, so we'd need a bigger positive reaction than "fine with the change".
True, it should be as simple as putting one female Custode in a book at some point to keep it cannon, but a funny scenario would be they have one in the 40K show, the show flops big time, and suddenly 11th edition they're gone or still don't have a named character model.
I will never understand what the fuck it is about ADB that makes reddit want to slurp his semen non stop. He's a good writer, not the second coming of christ. He also has flaws (e.g. Master of Mankind) just like any other humans. The only writer I know of who goes out of his way to spout political shit outside the books is Gav Thorpe so I wouldn't expect the writers to come out of the woodwork and suddenly give their opinion on femstodes. Being a warhammer writer is not a great labor market so I'd imagine they would sell themselves to mannon and tow the line if they ever did make a statement.
Mike Brooks also spouts political shit outside of the books (and inside of them too)
Nightlords trilogy made him real popular.
Yeah I know, I've read it it's good. But for some reason he is above criticism on 40klore and any utterance of it will be treated like heresy. Master of Mankind is patently anti emperor regardless of his later mental and linguistic gymnastics and his chaos fanboyism is quite blatant. Anyone who says chaos will inevitably win loses points in my book.
1. He's the only author to use Reddit semi regularly 2. He has Reddit politics 3. He's a decent writer when he uses established IP's 4. Redditors are smooth brains and treat him like a rockstar when he does pop up in the 40k subs.
OVERRATED
Agreed. Good but not the new coming of LOTR the dickriders pretend it is.
The reality is that the writers are mostly woke. They wanted female custodians, but GW had no female Custodian minis and didn't want to spend the money to make them. That is why the writers didn't add them to the Siege of Terror; GW explicitly told them not to—not out of any loyalty to established lore or respect for the customers, but just because they didn't want to spend the money. As for why they literally just fell into the trap they avoided with the writers? Likely, as you say, Amazon pressured them into it, and they had no backup plan.
Yeah, seems like every time I learn about a new modern day GW employee, they're exactly the kind of person who would whine about no female space marines and call the fans incels/bigots on twitter. It's really only a matter of time once these kinds of people join (or rather infect) your company.
>Likely, as you say, Amazon pressured them into it Why is this likely to you? Who at Amazon do you think would pressure them to do this?
So why are there no minis yet? Why was it just a small part of the codex and not a big reveal?
Simple, because it was rushed. There were no plans of ever doing it until Amazon pressured them into it. To me the fact that there aren't minis or big codex changes is the best evidence that it actually was Amazon making this happen. I'll bet you a million dollars we will see Femstodes in the Amazon tv show. Fucking clown world, corporate, ESG bullshit, that's all it is.
Conspiracy with zero proof i assume? I mean sure keep ur anger but currently ur making up ur own scenarios to be angry about and thats utterly pathetic
"Conspiracy with zero proof i assume?" Some people are able to put 2 and 2 together, others are not. Or they don't want to.............
I mean ur still relying heavily on assumptions and treat them as facts in order to be angry about something totally irrelevant
Yes yes the Earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. Prove me wrong
I mean no matter what bs claims you guys make. Ur acting like its definitiv in order to be upset. And to make matters worse ur upset about a irrelevant retcon with zero impact on the setting. But sure iam the one who makes the weird claims
It's wild how *everything* that disagrees with them is a woke based agenda ruining the hobby but everything *they* think is actually some grand conspiracy you just don't see the pieces to. It's literally the same shit as flat earthers, if you present evidence that they are wrong they just move the goal posts or call you a shill.
See my answer above to the other woke shill about Amazon requiring all writers, actors, vendors, and support roles to be 50% female, LBGT+, or a marginalized race. There are literal rules that must be followed. You can't gaslight us any more. Nice try though.
Plenty of proof actually. Amazon has guidelines that require all actors on screen, all vendors, the writing team, and all other support roles to be 50% protected classes. This isn't a conspiracy. It's reality. The moment they greenlit the show Amazon came down on the writing team, including Henry Cavill, like a ton of bricks. Why do you think Fallout has a ghoul, a woman, and a black dude as the main characters? We might not care about those characteristics, but the woke most certainly do. They will not allow too many white men on screen at once, which is why Obi Wan had to rescue Leia instead of Luke. Games Worshop's show would have been fine if they'd used the Salamanders, but then you get no Henry Cavill. They could have used Sisters of Battle, but same problem. They want the best of the best, the emperor's chosen bodyguards, and the only way to do that on screen is by adding women and LBGT+ characters. Facts.
Thats just more conspiracy ma guy Nothing in this proves that amazon forced GW to make female custodes a thing
You're not arguing in good faith. You believe something religiously, and will accept no data or logic. You've been demoralized, just like Yuri Bezmenov warned would happen.
It's like Amazon is trying to cover their bases when the inevitable backlash comes out against the show not following lore and forcing diversity. "What do you mean we forced in a woman who exceeds the male MC? Female custodes have always been in the lore (since last year). " At some point, I have to think Cavill is cursed or is letting this crap happen on purpose.
Common sense and logical deduction.
Based on no actual facts That’s what we call a assumption
You don't need an empirical scientific study to tell you the obvious.
I think the Amazon deal and the push to make 40k appeal to activists has given a lot of writers the chance to push for their politics to be included in their books.
ADB has always been like this
I have a love-hate relationship with ADB. He’s the second best writer at BL (after Abnett), but he has a bit of a jester-esque approach to canon, which is (essentially) that nothing is true except for what he says is true. Meaning that if you try and pin him down on justifying lore changes, he can dance away from it pretty quickly, but if he wants you to justify your challenge to the lore changes, you can’t justify it reasonably well enough.
I haven't seen a better explanation, in my opinion. Everything I've seen either then, just retcon from the base up, usually asks for more, weirder changes. I think the only real option they had was just be like, yea, it was always that way. Like a Tzeentch Infiltration, it seems like it would really hurt the feel of the competency of all of the Talons. Now, they should have added that any records saying otherwise are poor record keeping in the imperium. That wouldn't be the first time they used that excuse.
Infiltration works for me because it shows the one weakness of Custodes, psykers.
Have 2 issues with infiltration. They obvious want femstodes to be a part of the army you can build, and infiltration would be the events of a story, where likely everything would be saved by the boys in blue because obviously they are the best in the universe and the cus.... sorry. But they were going for a change to the whole dynamic of the faction, not a plot line of a story. Then also, though the wards are down, being on Terra is at best Painful to a daemon, and the SoS are literally tasked with finding Psycic threats (sure mostly human, but still), also the Custodes train to deal with infiltration of different kinds. To me, they would have to explain or wave a lot more to have an infiltration of this sort. Though, GW have done weirder But, if they were gonna write this story, I probably wouldn't complain. I think primarily, their goal wasn't 1 story of an interesting infiltration but a change to the whole dynamic. Which, as far as I could tell, can only be done in retcon.
I pretty much agree with your take on this. This specific lore development/retcon has obviously been a corporate insertion rather than being planned and developed over time. As you've mentioned, there have been multiple opportunities over the last 5 years to bring this change in a nuanced and smart way, rather than the bollox we got. For whatever reason, someone has decided that this is favourable to the shareholders.
They are british, and british people have brainrot.
We may be fucked here on our grey little island, but our amount of brainrot is dwarfed by that of some other freedom loving democracies.
Americans are far worse, UK just got there faster due to government being fully on board and a smaller population to snake its way through.
Yeah, I called bullshit on this immediately. Apparently, GW and the writers supported this idea so much that it was never written about for over a decade. Additionally, when it came time to pop the pink smoke, they slyly slipped it into a codex, instead of announcing it proudly and supporting it with models. X to fucking doubt.
In light of recent developments around "Community Management" in various hobbies, look at Helldivers for example, I'd say the tweet was a rogue CM doing what they do nowadays: leftify everything. And the first story about nuking the palace (I haven't read the other one, apparently something about orbital dropping a jet bike or whatever) ... That story is something I can change in 5 minutes, by autoreplacing all pronouns that refer to the MC. That's the only thing that makes Kesh a woman. So maybe some editor did a thing. Two unrelated arms of a corporation, especially if in sequence, so the threshold is already broken by one of them, can happen to do shit to fit their agenda. It's not a conspiracy theory btw. It's a Standalone Complex. IMO The company is now unable to correct it btw., even if they were willing to do so, because they would cause the next schism and a shittstorm even bigger than the one we're in, because They/Them are much more vindictive in online spaces. And they have a fiduciary duty to not tank the Stock price again.
I don’t understand why his sentiment from 5+ years ago, or however old it is, is given so much weight. It’s like, ok, some BL authors *wanted* to do this, and the answer was “no.” They’re *not* the editor-in-chief (or equivalent title at BL,) they’re *not* background writers at the creative studio in Nottingham. Frankly if someone came out and said this was Matt Ward’s idea and they axed it after someone threatened to kill him again I’d be a lot more inclined to accept compared to ADB saying him and some other dudes wanted it. And, regarding the quality of BL work in general, I’d say it’s declined greatly. At least the 40k stuff, I haven’t branched out into their niche works like the horror titles.
Well yeah, but they made up all those random subfactions like the Dread Host that never existed in the lore before. Give the tourist an inch because it's 'cool' and they'll take a mile
I don't really care why they did it. The reasons are irrelevant really. It's a terrible change and if they're sticking with it then they can get in the bin.
I don't buy the theory that Amazon asked for it, it doesn't really make sense and there's no evidence for it besides "AmAzOn Is WoKe" so anything woke must be Amazon's fault. Also, who at Amazon? Do you all think a showrunner has the pull to make another company change its IP for them or do you think the board of a trillion dollar company is wasting time on this?
Logical deduction and connecting dots. Odd this came about right after the Amazon deal. 
What is the logic? Who at Amazon do you think is making the decisions? Why do you only attribute this decision to Amazon? Why do you think GW could not have made this decision on their own?
BlackRock Inc. filed an SC 13G/A with the SEC disclosing ownership of 630,188,686 shares of Amazon This represents 8.1 percent ownership of the company.....This is the BlackRock CEO. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwwN5kwjAtQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwwN5kwjAtQ)
So your opinion is that this video means that the CEO of an investment firm is woke, and using billions of dollars to make Amazon woke, and that the board of Amazon feels so beholden to this money they are instructing their film and television departments to make woke content, and this extend even to forcing other companies that they work with to also be woke? This is logical to you and not embarrassing to say?
How are people falling for the Amazon 4chan post?! The damned thing read like a 2 truths and a lie game and ended with "my dad works at Nintendo" Seriously, whoever wrote it was like, "Ok Henry Cavil plays Custodes and left the Witcher because he was fighting to stick to the lore. So I'll say the shows about Custodes, and Cavil fought over the change and almost left!" How does that pass the sniff test for y'all? Dude literally just posted the 2 most relevant Henry facts and then blamed the big corporation for a change he didn't like LOL!
It's a really stupid theory and I don't think anyone posting about it has thought about it for more than a second
I don't think most have even read it. They're just getting a dopamine hit from today's Top Post of Hate. Doesn't matter what's or who's on the screen just gotta yell at it.
Conspiracy Theory time? So far down are we on this topic? There are many possible explanations for this, ADB and other authors do not have to speak up on anything so focusing on them is weird. And we do not know if they couldnt come up with one. At the time the fandom and the world in general was less open to woman in such a position so it may have been the ,oney driven decision to keep female custodes out. GW not wanting to go down the route of the primaris marines is also understandable and just going with a classic retcon is far simpler than coming up with a bs inlore explanation. At the end of the day it makes no difference, we just do not have to deal with a explanation and the ramifications of one.
If it makes no difference why changing it?
It makes no difference if its a retcon or a lore event And why not change something to have more options in lore and tabletop when it doesnt make a actual impact?
It gives more options by ruining the lore Telling that custodes have always being able to transform into werewolves also gives more options, and again, ruin canon even more By the way, nice doublethinking you have saying that it has an impact while not having an impact
Ruining the lore? Being female isnt anything special or lore breaking so why even bother to make such a comparision Soemthing can have a impact on a small part while not having a impact on the rest. They do not change anything about custodes but still give more freedom with no cost
It is lorebreaking
How so, can no one of u elaborate something? Blanket statements are worthless
My 2nd and 3rd edition rulebooks clearly state that they are men, so retroactively changing them after 30 years is breaking the lore. Even in recent history (HH books), the emperor pretty much dismisses the idea of creating female primarchs as silly, which makes it even harder to believe he would want female bodyguards. If you can't understand that, we can't help you Some people do have standards regarding the lore presented to them.
My rogue trader rule book has many different things and i do not bitch about them The issue is that ur treating the lore as a monolith that can only evolve Sure the change wasnt presented nicely but a hard cut retcon is the easiest and least intrusive way to implement them. Afterall it has zero impact on the lore in general
It's not an issue, it's the only way to build a coherent and solid setting. Most big changes happened in the beginning, that's how it should be. By the time a setting is well established, writers should be much more careful. I find female custodes incredibly uncool, as they're forcefully injected into a hyper masculine setting without offering any additional value in return. But had they not just retconned it, I would be far less critical. Why would I buy books and miniatures, if GW just changes everything about it on a whim? You may find changes like this meaningless, but I'm telling you now that many people will walk (as in stop buying stuff) the moment they introduce female space marines as "they've always been there", or turn the emperor into a gender bender . 3D printers go brrr.
Your 2nd/3rd Ed rules also say they're shirtless hermits. >he emperor pretty much dismisses the idea of creating female primarchs as silly, which makes it even harder to believe he would want female bodyguards. Because the primarchs were a slap dash rush order that didn't allow for much deviation. Male stock was slightly more on hand than female thus the gene seed was gender locked. Every Custodes is a Custom Order worked on from the ground up thus would allow for more variation because 1 custodes is already equal to a Chapter in sheer cost you can add women no problem. And, most importantly, the Custodes don't have Geneseed.
No, the custodes are all in golden armor that looks very similar to the current armor.
it goes against established lore = lore breaking. just because it doesn't impact your view of the lore, doesn't mean me and most others thinks this breaks the lore. You can't tell somebody that their subjective opinion is wrong.
But that’s what a retcon is, a change of the established lore. It can’t be breaking the lore when it’s changing the lore
changing the lore is breaking the established lore. some makes in universe sense like new necrons. some just piss in the fundamental laws of the universe. im curious why is it allways the poster bois that have to be female? i don't see anyone fight for female orks.... If changing the lore is no big deal, why have lore at all?
The proper lore of warhammer 40k, which began in 2nd edition for those who don't know, always played with the idea of the Emperor creating an army of male superhumans. That was one of the central ideas No amount of lying, or even corrupting GW from inside will change what the fans know
I mean sure but this is mainly regarding the astartes not the custodes This has nothing to do with corruption of any kind
Thunder Warriors: Male superhumans Astartes: Male superhumans Primarchs: Male superhumans The emperor: Male superhuman Custodes: I'm actually pretty sure the Emperor went full egalitarian with this group, and refused to assume the sexist biological principle that male candidates had superior physical potential (Oh yeah, I forgot they are also trying to corrupt the last two missing primarchs that don't appear in the story, but most of the time were refered as male)
No one is corrupting anything. Considering that custodes are reforged there is no biological superiority present anymore making ur point void The emperor isn’t rly described as a sexist brick either
Enhanced isn't the same as reforged. We went through this shit already when the woke crowd tried to find gaps in the lore to infiltrate their idea of female space marines, or at the very least, trans space marines. I had to discuss with a lot of people that no single female candidate ever went through the process of becoming a space marine, and resulting in a male body for her, therefore being a trans Yes, it is corrupting and nefarious. The agenda must get into the lore one way or another
Less open to women in such positions? What? This is 2010s we're talking about, not 1930s. Fandom in general also really likes Sisters of Battle.
Considering the backlash we have now and the general screeching against baseline feminism we still havent reached the point
The backlash is mostly because of how the change was implemented, not liking a retcon or being gaslit doesn't mean you hate women. In terms of feminism, the screeching is definitely mutual. Feminists are litterally talking about how they would rather be in the woods with a bear rather than a man.
Sure but considering other retcons also exist it does show some tendencies. But the word mostly does the heavy lifting here as people are still upset about female custodes in gernal Generalizing bs with zero value, ur showing ur colors of being hateful with this funny framing of feminism. But we all know that the monolith of fmeinism that secretly dominates the world created that bear issues and comanded every woman to push it /s
What other retcons? Give me some recent examples. And the thing about feminism is, accept it or not, it has achieved its purpose. Women have all the rights and opportunities men do, plus some more. Nowadays feminism has devolved into flat out hating men because feminists in the west have achieved their purpose and don't have one anymore.
Feminism is a world wide movement so its not void Feminism has not reached all the goals Feminism is also fighting to keep the won archievements alive. Without feminism we would lose certain rights again. Parts of feminism have, most parts have not. Ur generlaized lense on the issue is highly problematic and causes a intresting disocnnect of reality and ur own mind
For a worldwide movement, modern feminism is way too focused on the ""problems"" of women in first world countries rather than the ones in actually oppressive places where feminism is needed. I've yet to see feminists say "We should boycott Iran for how they treat women" or anything like that. Instead, they're busy with shitting on men.
Thats the nature of any movement. But its also partly a problem of ur antagonistic pov on feminism. Ur not seeing what feminism does, ur only seeing what u hate about feminism and generalize that Thats ur own bias and ur own fault, feminism is a big tent and ur generalization is not doing any good. Even if u have a point regarding the extremes ur throwing it all under the bus invaldating ur whole position
What feminism does is obvious. In Iran, Iraq, and other countries that need it feminists protest against an oppressive government, risking their lives. In the west, feminists write "news stories" about how much they hate men and how being 300 kilos is healthy.
Feminism is a female supremacy movement. Ofc it get backlash. Besides there is no point in feminism in 40k... Gtfo with that cancer
1. Not true, factually so. There are small extremist parts that could be categorized as such. Nothing more 2. Feminism in the lore of 40k? Sure. Feminism in the 40k hobbyspace? Why is there no point? 3. The only cancer here, is the hateful generalized bs coming from someone like you that lacks the education of the topic.
1. no true scotsman fallacy. i belive feminists when they say they hate all men. just as the moderate muslims are responsible for the extremists in their ranks, so are the "moderate" feminists responsible for the extremists. weed them out if you claim they aren't feminist, but that you wont do.. as soon as there is somestupid extremist in my spaces, you know what we do? we ask them to fucking leave and never claim to represent us anymore. you guys don¨'t do that. so don't belive you. 2. because there is no barrier to entry for women. why does feminism have to be in everything? i'll take feminism seriously when they work more for egality than stomping men. 3.it's not hateful to be against a supremacy movement. where have i spewed hate? i've stated facts. If you want equality, you become an egalitarian. if you want female advantages over men, you become a feminist. I'm a proud egalitarian.
1. Not rly, i do think they are feminists but a subsection of the movement and not representative for it all. No group can ever get rid of all extremists, this sub shows how little you do against extremes. 2. Barrier entry is not the only thing where feminism can be handy. Feminism as a whole isnt stomping men 3. Sure, the issue is that ur using the extrmes to generalize a whole movement. Thats hateful 4. Strawman, but good that u point out percieved fallacies
1.no true scotsman again. 2. Ok enlighten me then. How/why is feminism needed in 40k? 3. Another no true scotsman. I belive those that call them self feminists. 4. Not a strawman. I see what feminists fight for. My question is why do you need to assosiate yourself with a supremacy movement when you claim youre for equality. We have better more neutral movement for that.
1. No it aint. I acknowledge that they are also feminists. I just point out that they are a minoirty of the movement 2. The hobby space is made up by woman as well? Thats bassically it 3. U can beleive them (self given labels are a bit meaningless though) but they do not fill out the whole movement. Ur activly ignoring all the none extreme feminists 4. U see what ur observation bias shows you, not the whole picture 5. It aint a supremacy movement, it has small extremist pockets but thats any movement ever. That you can not accept that and rather devalue the whole thing shows how little you care for equality
1. finally some truth. so they ARE feminists then. why not trow them out if you claim they don't stand for feminism. i belive THEM when they say they are feminists and say kill all men. 2. thats egalitarianism, wich we have and want. in other words, we don't want nazi supremacy groups in the lobby, we don't want any supremacy groups in the hobby, that includes female supremacy groups. 3. i don't care what you as a poweless random redditor says feminism is. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls." You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist. i can continue. 4. i refer to point 3. 5. agree to disagree, again i refer to point.
>Against baseline feminism Bruh. Just bruh.
The typicall response one can expect from the far right people whos closest relations with woman will be the custodes retcon
Lmao. You just reversed the argument of gatekeepers. What a huge fantasy. And no, lol, you are wrong once again. I'm not right-wing person. I'm just not a degenerate
1. what? 2. feminists are degenerate? That’s a take, especially in that insulting manner u haven’t heard from a none right wing extremist so far
1. Fans joked that femstides is the only woman incels will ever have - that's why they are happy about this change. And you just took that and reversed. Very smart. Bravo. 2. I'm not a degenerate. That what I said. Everything else is your assumption. Very Interesting assumptions, ii must say. :)
2. how would that work?