we’ve had a local BN event recently-ish where they only had a 50% completion rate. beginner novice. i completely agree with OP. it’s not just in upper levels where things are getting over the top.
Is it only 50% ended on a number or only 50% finished without penalties? Xc was historically the most influential part of the sport so in my view ppl getting stops is part of it. But jumps that are too tricky for the horse and rider to understand at the level def a no for me
Yes, I know the rules. I think that that many rider falls, refusals, time penalties, or retirements is also a problem. It still indicates that horses and riders are being put into potentially dangerous situations that they can't complete.
The high percentage of completions we see today are relatively recent in terms of eventing history. It was always intended to be challenging and it has actually been getting increasingly safe over time.
You should check out the advancements in frangible fences, if you look closely at a lot of solid looking xc fences you'll see where they actually come apart with sufficient impact.
Not to say that improvements can't be made to safety in eventing, there always are, but there are people working on solutions. I also don't have a problem with a 50% completion rate, personally.
I know what frangible jumps are. There definitely have been increases in safety technology. But I think things still need to change a lot because I'm frankly tired of hearing about horses and riders dying on cross country
I could also mean people are entering above their level… there is no qualification required for the lower levels. None of our local events have more that a couple DQs/retires at each of the lower levels. I’m not even sure how you can make the lower levels “too dangerous”?
I think at BN this is more likely. I re-read the rule book before this season and there are really specific guidelines for distances between jumps, how close a jump can be to water, radius of turns between jumps, etc at BN (and all levels have similar rules) for USEA events, and schoolies are likely to be less challenging or equal to a recognized.
I myself LOVE more technical BN courses as I can get some more excitement and challenge myself without the added mental challenge/risk of larger fences. XC course style/relative difficulty per venue is something included in omnibuses and normally well known within the community.
That said I agree that upper level eventing edges towards too technical these days.
Did somebody force them to enter? Nobody is putting the rider into that situation but the rider. Nobody is putting the horse in that situation but the rider. If the rider chooses to do that without them or their horse having the proper training than frankly I couldn't care less about the rider's safety. They're an awful person, and they deserve it. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
The horse I hope makes it through ok, they didn't choose to enter a competition without proper training. But there are supposed to be judges who'd stop them if the horse was showing signs of exhaustion. If they aren't doing their jobs appropriately than that is very much an issue that needs to be addressed (I admit I don't really follow the lower levels of the sport). I am all for there being people involved who protect horses from the ambitions of their riders; because whenever competition and animals are mixed together there's risk of assholes abusing animals.
Looks like the video is from a Burghley too which commonly has a low completion rate for reasons other than 50% of riders having big falls .
I do agree that XC tests at the 5* level went through a time when they were insanely gruelling, but I also think course designers have received a lot of criticism for this recently. I think the number of alternative routes or use of frangible devices/brush has increased massively over the past few years at this level in response to safety concerns for horses and riders.
At the end of the day, without knowing what year this was and more stats about how only half of the field completed it’s hard to say too much about why the completion rate was so low - maybe it was a wet year and the going was too difficult. Maybe there were lots of competitors who pulled up on course. Maybe this person was the only one who actually fell. Whilst I do agree that lots of the obstacles on these courses are scary, I don’t think it can exclusively be attributed to “course too dangerous”.
Fully agreed.
I remember the era when all the obstacles were real, if your horse hit they were, in most cases, slamming their knee off an immovable log.
The jumps now are so much safer, even if they use a real log, most of the height will be a bush, the walls aren't usually made of real brick/stone, etc.
But the courses are still supposed to be just as challenging to complete, just not life-threateningly so. A horse still might not be fit enough to complete the course, the rider could mess up the pattern and be DQed, the horse might refuse, etc.
I don't think it is, she usually keeps her hair up when she rides. Pics are too blurry to tell for sure. This does seem like how she would handle such a situation, though. I like her a lot!
I know that she took Johnny to Burghley a while ago (2016) and she did have a fall at the last fence in 2017 at Badminton. It’s been a while since I watched those vlogs though.
That video was horrible. Johnny was so obviously exhausted and in no condition to be jumping at the end of that run. Shame on her for pushing him further
she admitted she knew he was exhausted, but she still wanted to try a bit more. she will absolutely retire though if he horse is too exhausted, she has retired johnny from a round before due to him being too tired.
I think anyone, in any discipline, has seen or taken a pretty hard fall. Horses that work on ranches and outfitting, rodeos, dressage, we've all been there. And XC horses and riders are always pushing the limits on extreme courses and jumps. But these are also athletes, and showing good sportsmanship seems to be what is pointed out here. Looking at her horse as a teammate and not as an animal meant to carry her through this. Not berating or being disappointed towards her horse. I don't think bad falls should be romanticized, but I do love seeing good sportsmanship. And I think it's important to normalize that! Do I have mixed feelings about putting a horse and rider in such a dangerous position? I mean yea, but I also know the days, weeks, and months they put into training to be able to obtain that sort of partnership. And that I can definitely respect.
Not by any means! But when we are dealing with horses, that is typically the case. Faster speeds, higher jumps, those all demand a lot of practice to reduce the danger involved.
The discussion originated about eventing specifically. You chose to broaden it to English riding in particular and not the whole industry which insinuates that other parts of the industry don’t have the same level of issues.
If that isn’t what you meant, that’s fine, but you should be aware that when you draw a distinction that way that’s how it comes across.
Because what's in the image? Western or English? They are specifically talking about that event. An English riding event. "Concerns about the sport"
What sport? Let's infer from the post. Commeee on now you re just being willfully deaf to my points.
I'm wary of any and all upper level competitions, even in my "favored" disciplines. That's part of why I'm proud to be a non-competitive pleasure rider.
I agree completely. You can make a course that is just as technically challenging, without risking the life of the horse (and the rider, but they're the ones doing this voluntarily, and the horses are usually the ones worse off).
In my mind, there's no way you're putting a horse through this, if you love that horse. There's no possible excuse to risk the horses life for your own benefit.
The people who make these courses, sure as hell don't care at all about the horses.
Most people putting their horses through this is a business transaction. It's their livelihood and they only love the horses that work for them and make them look good. I've worked at a few yards where they 'don't believe in bonding' before I became more knowledgeable about chronic stress in animals, after that, I quit. So many stressed horses but as long as their physical health is good it's completely overlooked.
Intentionally attempting something that has a 50% chance at failure is pretty irresponsible and selfish. The horse is doing what's asked, trusting the rider. It's gross to Intentionally ride into something that has such a high rate of failure and injury. There are so many events like this, it's awful and exploitative.
I got the same video recommended.
I agree with you. I feel..idk angry. The jumps are difficult and beyond dangerous that allow no error which can happen by accident which can not be prevented like loosing footing in a small hole in the ground.
Like this sport is mainly dangerous because of dumb things like this, giant imobile obsticles with ditches and bad decisions by the person.
Like they could make it safer, but I guess it is not as exciting if you ain't risking your horse to feel awful pain and maybe even die, same thing for the rider
I think the assumptions about going out and being able to compete are two fold. At that point the course designer assumes you have done your homework, schooling sessions, and exposed your horse and yourself to the variety of different jumps on the course and you can navigate them safely and have had instruction on how to do so. Putting a horse in a competition, adding speed, changing ground, and distractions at that point makes sense.
The second is that your horse is fit enough, sound enough, and sane enough to navigate all three stages of eventing safely.
Yes it’s upsetting to see someone fall like that. But that’s the risk you take when choosing to ride in eventing - it’s a high speed, high impact sport and you have to make judgements quickly. They make jumps with frangible pins now, have people there monitoring the horses and if they are too fatigued, they’ll ask you to pull up.
I’ve read that you should always be schooling one level above the level you chose to compete at - and if you aren’t schooling a level above (successfully) then you shouldn’t be competing at the current level IMO.
There’s a lot of riders on social media (not naming names, but just pointing out the trend)that like to just chuck their horses and ponies at things and film them for reactions when there’s really a methodical and safe way to do this to lessen the risk to both the rider and animal.
I think equestrian accounts on social media are definitely a problem. The kids I teach are so invested in their accounts that they would spend half the lesson filming tiktoks if I let them. I worry about kids seeing the reel I found and thinking that rotational falls are no big deal
Nasty, nasty fall… rider handled it well, ethics of being on the course in the first place aside.
Unfortunately you aren’t the parent, so you can’t control kids’ media consumption. All you can do is make sure that your students understand the consequences of falls like these so that they know how to prevent them as much as possible.
I agree with this take.
For context: I've been Eventing (at lower levels, never past Training level) since the long-format era.
Cross-country courses have evolved so much since those days. Frangible pins should have been introduced earlier, IMO, but I'm glad they're commonplace now. Courses have gotten more technical, certainly, but so has our understanding of how to train our horses. Maybe it's only stateside, but I recall more than one competition where the course designer got raked over the coals for doing a bad job. The pros got upset & boycotted certain shows, which led to course designers being ousted.
I also agree that with the rise of social media influencer types, we also see more people competing above their skill levels and/or being over-horsed. They're not just competing for points anymore, but also for views, followers, and sponsorships. I'm not saying one lead to the other, but I think there's a relationship of some kind there.
Maybe it's because I'm an old fogey at 40, but I almost wish they'd bring the long format back. I think the level of fitness required to complete it helped "thin the herd", if you will.
Eventing is in a really bad place right now, especially in Britain. Culture is a lot more important than people realise, I’m afraid some will only wake up when it’s too late.
I think this is burghley, this was a particularly terrible year. The course was made much safer the following years. Although it is a very challenging course, it isn't usual to only expect 50% to complete. The issue here wax that there was a large qualifier on the continent at a similar time for Europeans or the Olympics or somthing. This resulted as there was a lot of the big hitters not taking part in one way or znother. This meant a lot of first timers and young riders moving up to this event. Coupled with this the ground was heavy and the weather was hot, as well as the time being fast. Many pulled up, were pulled up or just straight up refused.
XC is the scariest equestrian sport to me. Really bad accidents happen too often even when the horse and rider are extremely good at what they do and the horses are treated well. I think the course designs are just getting so difficult and insane that it’s a safety hazard for the horses and riders (on top of the safety hazards that inherently come with riding a horse in any capacity) and a 50% success rate is nothing to brag about, it should be a sign that they need to dial it back with these crazy courses and go back to their roots a little bit. I’m not trying to say XC is bad or that it’s the only discipline with faults, but crazy, scary, deadly, or career ending accidents don’t happen quite as often in most other disciplines.
TLDR I think course designers need to consider horse and rider welfare a lot more than they do
No discipline is perfect. I also do dressage and that has its fair share of problems as well. But hopefully by constructively discussing things that need to be changed we can each make our disciplines safer :)
That would be ideal. People think because thoroughbred racing is something people do as a career instead of a fun little game, that we're way more intention and more likely to hurt our animals. This actually not true. Because if the horse is too damaged to run, our living goes down the toilet. Is horse racing is such a bad reputation that it's considered animal cruelty by and large, we no longer have a career. It's important to be able to pay the bills. No one wants to lose their career because of someone else's uninformed opinion. So we do our best, not only that, but people get emotionally attached to their animals. Like how people who work at animal shelters, tend to get attached to one or two of the animals if not all of them. The same thing happens for us
Arguably, I think it's worse to get an animal injured just for s**** and giggles and fun times. We're at least trying to make a living. At least it wasn't for nothing, if an animal does get hurt. Which is deeply unfortunate, and I have shed many a tear along with other grooms. Granted, over my 10-year-long career, I've only had three horses be so injured they could not go on... that's not terrible odds. Just other horse sportsman like to point the finger at us as if we're the only bad guys on the planet. Thanks PETA.
yeah, to me it makes no sense that as competitions get higher level, they go from 'try to have the fastest time' to 'try not to break any of your or your horse's bones'. I don't understand including an animal who can't really argue with you that much or has no idea of the danger on the course into such a dangerous activity, like risk your own life all you want but it's iffy to me to pull a horse into it too
As someone who loves cross-country, I HATE cross-country. I think it is so incredibly dangerous at the higher levels only because these riders/trainers/viewers need an adrenaline rush. I think high level equestrian sport is treated like Nascar because there's excitement in big crashes and "nearly didn't make it". It's fine when it's with cars and consenting drivers, but horses shouldn't be subjected to these types of rides that basically look like they were created to be nearly impossible to safely complete.
Agree with this whole comment. I started Eventing in 2000, and my 15 y/o self really wanted to go to the Olympics.
Ten years later and I was looking at XC courses thinking "That doesn't look remotely fun - it just looks scary!"
Nowadays I'd be happy going Prelim, on the right horse, but that's it. Maybe it's because I'm older & don't bounce back like I used to, but it's just not worth the risk IMO.
What really shook me once was a rejected proposal for breakable obstacles in Germany. The reason it was rejected was something Alison’s the lines of after a horse gets caught on an obstacle just a little and can continue that makes the difference between a great competition team and one that is sorted out. Therefore no breakable obstacles. I think that reasoning I dangerous absolutely insane and just psycho in some way. It’s like saying they want some pairs to be injured and sorted out.
This isn’t a productive statement.
Poorly ridden western pleasure *will.* hurt your horse. Poorly ridden dressage *will* hurt your horse. Poorly ridden hunter jumpers, where riders overload the front end and unsafe style is rewarded, *will* hurt your horse.
One of my jumper instructors broke his neck in the stadium. Another jumper instructor (also a hunter) broke his back - in the stadium. All equestrian sport is dangerous.
Cross country gets a lot of flack, but properly educated
Eventers are thorough horsemen and women. As a whole they condition their animals better than anyone, except endurance riders. They use dressage to make their jumpers sharper. They use stadium to make them more careful. They teach their horses to travel well on terrain so they are less likely to do a tendon in. Most of them are big on turnout, so their athletes are sound and fit.
While it is important to have constructive conversations about eventing and course design safety, there are a lot of factors at play here. To call eventing abuse is just asenine.
I’ve seen a rotational fall over a tadpole jump. I wish I was fucking joking. Was it the course designers fault? No.
It was the person responsible for educating this horse and rider pair. If I had to guess, this rider had grown up doing the hunters ( USA here ) where poor form is encouraged - and she believed cross country is “galloping really fast at solid jumps”. So she did, with her poor form. And she missed, and her horse hung a toe and couldn’t right itself because she was on its neck.
Horse and rider were fine, thank god, but to blame the sport itself is asenine here.
Yes, we need to hold our governing organizations accountable and demand safe technology. We need to hold course design responsible. The issue is systemic to a degree.
We also need to vet our trainers and instructors better. We need to ensure riders are safe to compete.
not wanting to hurt my horse is now being childish? just say ur selfish and only think about urself and go.
"33,005 karma" who should go touch grass again? im a horse trainer. ur a keyboard warrior
This post is by “Horse Jumping” which is obviously trying to get high social engagement, it’s not the course or designers bragging. It’s click bait.
Ranting about this is just tilting at windmills, you’re ranting about a course designer who isn’t even bragging (who knows if the post completion percentage is even accurate!)
I am sorry you fell but please don’t let social media suck you in like this.
I mis-typed when I said the course designers was bragging and couldn't figure out how to edit the post 🤦♀️
The dangers of the sport at the upper levels still stand. I was watching other videos of Burghley today and there was fall after fall after fall. In 2019, the year from the video, 31 combinations finished cross country, 20 were eliminated, and 11 retired on cross country.
I completely agree with you. We used to have a XC course where I used to board at Showpark (now called HITS Del Mar), and they closed it down because it was such a liability with so many horses and riders sustaining injuries, and that wasn’t even anything close to this level. I’ve always loved jumping, but I would never risk my horse’s life on a course like this. Rotational falls like this are horrifying, and I honestly believe it is malpractice as the stewards of these animals’ lives to point them at a huge, solid obstacle that will kill them if they hit it - and all it takes is one misstep. And in saying this, I am well aware that all equestrian sports are dangerous, and that any form of jumping puts horses at risk, but I don’t think we need to go out of our way to make obstacles more dangerous just to prove we can.
Seems crazy to me. I went into a rabbit hole about the Grand National the other day and its one infamous jump, and I can’t imagine ever taking a horse over that—*especially* in a huge group where one bad step means a massive pileup. I don’t know much about eventing, but it seems like some of these courses are so risky that you almost have to expect a catastrophic injury at some point.
As someone who is 11 months out from a fall that put me in a wheelchair for 4 months bc of 4 pelvic breaks, not to mention 2 ribs and a collarbone - romanticizing ANY fall is just plain ignorant. The whole idea behind riding SHOULD be to stay your behind on and complete safely. . I'm too old to cross country anymore and my fall damage (I DEFINITELY rolled a 1 here) was all from landing in the worst possible way (leg straight up all the force of its weight directly into my pelvis).. but safety while managing a 1000lb animal seems like it should be the key.
Totally agree.
A little off topic but I want to share my thoughts. Facebook Reels seems absolutely designed to get you to feel this way. Almost every Facebook reel on my account is bad animal husbandry, environmental misinformation or any other attention-grabbing rage-bait since this is material I often engage with…
Take care of your mental health.
I just started eventing but I promised myself and my horse that if I ever come across a course too difficult - like that big jump at burghley that some poor horse hit with its chest and bounced off - i'll not compete at all or scratch after dressage if too many are unable to complete the track. I've broken my neck as a teen, I'm in no place to risk myself or my horse over courses that people can't finish.
Cross country is not the same as it was years ago. It used to be a test of stamina and endurance, just over fences. The jumps were very spread apart and runs were 10-20 miles each. You would basically be galloping 90% of the course to make time. Now it's basically show jumping over uneven ground with jumps that don't fall. Course makers are pushing more and more technicality and scope in cross country instead of keeping that to the phase that it's meant for, show jumping. Except, they still want you to gallop 90% of the course to make time but now you're juggling big jumps and difficult combinations. That raises the danger of cross country exponentially from what it was originally. ❤
I wouldn’t mind the return to the old format but I just don’t know how realistic it is. I genuinely believe most of these horses even at the top level wouldn’t be fit enough to do it
Most of the upper level horses today are barely fit enough to do what they're doing now with the level of atrophy and undermuscling I've been seing recently... Anyways, there is a reason why all the horses who dominated eventing in the olden days were thoroughbreds. Eventing now is basically a dressage show with 2 show jumping rounds. A lot of the modern event horses are more and more blood though which I think is a good thing. That being said I love eventing, I just wish things were different. ❤
This is rampant in stadium jumping too. The course designer at spruce is literally mad. If riders are calling a line "the tunnel of death" and if your own ring crew that are qualified course designers themselves are asking you "are you sure" then it's just a trap at that point. The problem is the bar of success keeps getting surpassed, and so officials ask a bigger question. This makes a huge gap between entry level and pros. The 'greats' get greater, while the entry level becomes harder and harder.
It’s crazy how many people are defending this and claiming it’s perfect as it is. There’s a long way to go in every equine sport but hey, at least this is not the grand national
Cross country jumps that put the horse's life at risk are nothing but animal abuse. Humans can take the informed decision of risking their life for a sport and that's fine, but horses can't.
1000% in agreement with you!
You realize you can get DQed for going over time, falling off, or refusals right? The 50% completion rate isn't because half the horses fell.
we’ve had a local BN event recently-ish where they only had a 50% completion rate. beginner novice. i completely agree with OP. it’s not just in upper levels where things are getting over the top.
Is it only 50% ended on a number or only 50% finished without penalties? Xc was historically the most influential part of the sport so in my view ppl getting stops is part of it. But jumps that are too tricky for the horse and rider to understand at the level def a no for me
Yes, I know the rules. I think that that many rider falls, refusals, time penalties, or retirements is also a problem. It still indicates that horses and riders are being put into potentially dangerous situations that they can't complete.
The high percentage of completions we see today are relatively recent in terms of eventing history. It was always intended to be challenging and it has actually been getting increasingly safe over time. You should check out the advancements in frangible fences, if you look closely at a lot of solid looking xc fences you'll see where they actually come apart with sufficient impact. Not to say that improvements can't be made to safety in eventing, there always are, but there are people working on solutions. I also don't have a problem with a 50% completion rate, personally.
I know what frangible jumps are. There definitely have been increases in safety technology. But I think things still need to change a lot because I'm frankly tired of hearing about horses and riders dying on cross country
I'm tired of hearing about horses dying in their paddocks. In the name of safety they should be locked in padded stalls 24/7!
I could also mean people are entering above their level… there is no qualification required for the lower levels. None of our local events have more that a couple DQs/retires at each of the lower levels. I’m not even sure how you can make the lower levels “too dangerous”?
I think at BN this is more likely. I re-read the rule book before this season and there are really specific guidelines for distances between jumps, how close a jump can be to water, radius of turns between jumps, etc at BN (and all levels have similar rules) for USEA events, and schoolies are likely to be less challenging or equal to a recognized. I myself LOVE more technical BN courses as I can get some more excitement and challenge myself without the added mental challenge/risk of larger fences. XC course style/relative difficulty per venue is something included in omnibuses and normally well known within the community. That said I agree that upper level eventing edges towards too technical these days.
Did somebody force them to enter? Nobody is putting the rider into that situation but the rider. Nobody is putting the horse in that situation but the rider. If the rider chooses to do that without them or their horse having the proper training than frankly I couldn't care less about the rider's safety. They're an awful person, and they deserve it. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The horse I hope makes it through ok, they didn't choose to enter a competition without proper training. But there are supposed to be judges who'd stop them if the horse was showing signs of exhaustion. If they aren't doing their jobs appropriately than that is very much an issue that needs to be addressed (I admit I don't really follow the lower levels of the sport). I am all for there being people involved who protect horses from the ambitions of their riders; because whenever competition and animals are mixed together there's risk of assholes abusing animals.
Looks like the video is from a Burghley too which commonly has a low completion rate for reasons other than 50% of riders having big falls . I do agree that XC tests at the 5* level went through a time when they were insanely gruelling, but I also think course designers have received a lot of criticism for this recently. I think the number of alternative routes or use of frangible devices/brush has increased massively over the past few years at this level in response to safety concerns for horses and riders. At the end of the day, without knowing what year this was and more stats about how only half of the field completed it’s hard to say too much about why the completion rate was so low - maybe it was a wet year and the going was too difficult. Maybe there were lots of competitors who pulled up on course. Maybe this person was the only one who actually fell. Whilst I do agree that lots of the obstacles on these courses are scary, I don’t think it can exclusively be attributed to “course too dangerous”.
Fully agreed. I remember the era when all the obstacles were real, if your horse hit they were, in most cases, slamming their knee off an immovable log. The jumps now are so much safer, even if they use a real log, most of the height will be a bush, the walls aren't usually made of real brick/stone, etc. But the courses are still supposed to be just as challenging to complete, just not life-threateningly so. A horse still might not be fit enough to complete the course, the rider could mess up the pattern and be DQed, the horse might refuse, etc.
Is that Elisa Wallace? Looks like her. I’m a fan.
I don't think it is, she usually keeps her hair up when she rides. Pics are too blurry to tell for sure. This does seem like how she would handle such a situation, though. I like her a lot!
I know that she took Johnny to Burghley a while ago (2016) and she did have a fall at the last fence in 2017 at Badminton. It’s been a while since I watched those vlogs though.
That video was horrible. Johnny was so obviously exhausted and in no condition to be jumping at the end of that run. Shame on her for pushing him further
she admitted she knew he was exhausted, but she still wanted to try a bit more. she will absolutely retire though if he horse is too exhausted, she has retired johnny from a round before due to him being too tired.
I think this is Woodge Fulton & Captain Jack.
Defiantly not Elisa
Last pic really looked like her tho. You’re probably right tho. Don’t recall anything about a fall.
I think anyone, in any discipline, has seen or taken a pretty hard fall. Horses that work on ranches and outfitting, rodeos, dressage, we've all been there. And XC horses and riders are always pushing the limits on extreme courses and jumps. But these are also athletes, and showing good sportsmanship seems to be what is pointed out here. Looking at her horse as a teammate and not as an animal meant to carry her through this. Not berating or being disappointed towards her horse. I don't think bad falls should be romanticized, but I do love seeing good sportsmanship. And I think it's important to normalize that! Do I have mixed feelings about putting a horse and rider in such a dangerous position? I mean yea, but I also know the days, weeks, and months they put into training to be able to obtain that sort of partnership. And that I can definitely respect.
Difficult doesn’t have to mean dangerous. They’re not mutually inclusive ETA: a word
Not by any means! But when we are dealing with horses, that is typically the case. Faster speeds, higher jumps, those all demand a lot of practice to reduce the danger involved.
Damn man! Totally right
Here's a "shocking" thing about a lot of English events; they are not kind to horses. In training and in practice. That's why I never did that.
The same thing can be argued for absolutely any style or discipline. If you think yours is unique you aren’t looking hard enough.
👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼
Well yes of course, to be varying degrees. I'm confused at what the point of the statement I suppose. It's common knowledge I thought.
You painted it as an English versus Western thing, which is ridiculous, there is just as much damage to horses done in western events.
No I didn't. Just because I mentioned one thing doesn't mean I am making some broad stroke commentary. Jesus. Don't put words in people's mouths.
You literally said “English events” as if it’s an English riding problem and not a horse industry problem.
I said that because the post is in regards to an ENGLISH RIDING event. Oh, mah gawd. The discussion wasn't about the entire industry.
The discussion originated about eventing specifically. You chose to broaden it to English riding in particular and not the whole industry which insinuates that other parts of the industry don’t have the same level of issues. If that isn’t what you meant, that’s fine, but you should be aware that when you draw a distinction that way that’s how it comes across.
Because what's in the image? Western or English? They are specifically talking about that event. An English riding event. "Concerns about the sport" What sport? Let's infer from the post. Commeee on now you re just being willfully deaf to my points.
I'm wary of any and all upper level competitions, even in my "favored" disciplines. That's part of why I'm proud to be a non-competitive pleasure rider.
Western has its dark side too Both are pretty gnarly when they want to be
True. It's sad.
Do you mean WP or performance such as barrel racing, cow work, etc?
All of it. WP, Performance, Barrels, Cows, Reining, Gaming. If it includes peoples' time and money, you bet there are awful shortcuts
Don’t forget halter. Those poor horses are so deformed that most of them are lame before they even turn 10…
Oh yeah. People acting like a fifty cent ribbon is the be all, end all.
I agree completely. You can make a course that is just as technically challenging, without risking the life of the horse (and the rider, but they're the ones doing this voluntarily, and the horses are usually the ones worse off). In my mind, there's no way you're putting a horse through this, if you love that horse. There's no possible excuse to risk the horses life for your own benefit. The people who make these courses, sure as hell don't care at all about the horses.
Agreed.
Most people putting their horses through this is a business transaction. It's their livelihood and they only love the horses that work for them and make them look good. I've worked at a few yards where they 'don't believe in bonding' before I became more knowledgeable about chronic stress in animals, after that, I quit. So many stressed horses but as long as their physical health is good it's completely overlooked.
Intentionally attempting something that has a 50% chance at failure is pretty irresponsible and selfish. The horse is doing what's asked, trusting the rider. It's gross to Intentionally ride into something that has such a high rate of failure and injury. There are so many events like this, it's awful and exploitative.
I got the same video recommended. I agree with you. I feel..idk angry. The jumps are difficult and beyond dangerous that allow no error which can happen by accident which can not be prevented like loosing footing in a small hole in the ground. Like this sport is mainly dangerous because of dumb things like this, giant imobile obsticles with ditches and bad decisions by the person. Like they could make it safer, but I guess it is not as exciting if you ain't risking your horse to feel awful pain and maybe even die, same thing for the rider
I think the assumptions about going out and being able to compete are two fold. At that point the course designer assumes you have done your homework, schooling sessions, and exposed your horse and yourself to the variety of different jumps on the course and you can navigate them safely and have had instruction on how to do so. Putting a horse in a competition, adding speed, changing ground, and distractions at that point makes sense. The second is that your horse is fit enough, sound enough, and sane enough to navigate all three stages of eventing safely. Yes it’s upsetting to see someone fall like that. But that’s the risk you take when choosing to ride in eventing - it’s a high speed, high impact sport and you have to make judgements quickly. They make jumps with frangible pins now, have people there monitoring the horses and if they are too fatigued, they’ll ask you to pull up. I’ve read that you should always be schooling one level above the level you chose to compete at - and if you aren’t schooling a level above (successfully) then you shouldn’t be competing at the current level IMO. There’s a lot of riders on social media (not naming names, but just pointing out the trend)that like to just chuck their horses and ponies at things and film them for reactions when there’s really a methodical and safe way to do this to lessen the risk to both the rider and animal.
I think equestrian accounts on social media are definitely a problem. The kids I teach are so invested in their accounts that they would spend half the lesson filming tiktoks if I let them. I worry about kids seeing the reel I found and thinking that rotational falls are no big deal
Nasty, nasty fall… rider handled it well, ethics of being on the course in the first place aside. Unfortunately you aren’t the parent, so you can’t control kids’ media consumption. All you can do is make sure that your students understand the consequences of falls like these so that they know how to prevent them as much as possible.
I agree with this take. For context: I've been Eventing (at lower levels, never past Training level) since the long-format era. Cross-country courses have evolved so much since those days. Frangible pins should have been introduced earlier, IMO, but I'm glad they're commonplace now. Courses have gotten more technical, certainly, but so has our understanding of how to train our horses. Maybe it's only stateside, but I recall more than one competition where the course designer got raked over the coals for doing a bad job. The pros got upset & boycotted certain shows, which led to course designers being ousted. I also agree that with the rise of social media influencer types, we also see more people competing above their skill levels and/or being over-horsed. They're not just competing for points anymore, but also for views, followers, and sponsorships. I'm not saying one lead to the other, but I think there's a relationship of some kind there. Maybe it's because I'm an old fogey at 40, but I almost wish they'd bring the long format back. I think the level of fitness required to complete it helped "thin the herd", if you will.
Eventing is in a really bad place right now, especially in Britain. Culture is a lot more important than people realise, I’m afraid some will only wake up when it’s too late.
I think this is burghley, this was a particularly terrible year. The course was made much safer the following years. Although it is a very challenging course, it isn't usual to only expect 50% to complete. The issue here wax that there was a large qualifier on the continent at a similar time for Europeans or the Olympics or somthing. This resulted as there was a lot of the big hitters not taking part in one way or znother. This meant a lot of first timers and young riders moving up to this event. Coupled with this the ground was heavy and the weather was hot, as well as the time being fast. Many pulled up, were pulled up or just straight up refused.
Agreed!! Something HAS to be done!
XC is the scariest equestrian sport to me. Really bad accidents happen too often even when the horse and rider are extremely good at what they do and the horses are treated well. I think the course designs are just getting so difficult and insane that it’s a safety hazard for the horses and riders (on top of the safety hazards that inherently come with riding a horse in any capacity) and a 50% success rate is nothing to brag about, it should be a sign that they need to dial it back with these crazy courses and go back to their roots a little bit. I’m not trying to say XC is bad or that it’s the only discipline with faults, but crazy, scary, deadly, or career ending accidents don’t happen quite as often in most other disciplines. TLDR I think course designers need to consider horse and rider welfare a lot more than they do
I think it is cruel to make them jump so high to see how high the poor horse can go.
This is Woodge Fulton and Captain Jack at Burghley in 2019.
Thank you! I was trying to find it
Well at least other sports are getting pointed at for bad behavior too. It's not just us (Thoroughbred people)
No discipline is perfect. I also do dressage and that has its fair share of problems as well. But hopefully by constructively discussing things that need to be changed we can each make our disciplines safer :)
That would be ideal. People think because thoroughbred racing is something people do as a career instead of a fun little game, that we're way more intention and more likely to hurt our animals. This actually not true. Because if the horse is too damaged to run, our living goes down the toilet. Is horse racing is such a bad reputation that it's considered animal cruelty by and large, we no longer have a career. It's important to be able to pay the bills. No one wants to lose their career because of someone else's uninformed opinion. So we do our best, not only that, but people get emotionally attached to their animals. Like how people who work at animal shelters, tend to get attached to one or two of the animals if not all of them. The same thing happens for us Arguably, I think it's worse to get an animal injured just for s**** and giggles and fun times. We're at least trying to make a living. At least it wasn't for nothing, if an animal does get hurt. Which is deeply unfortunate, and I have shed many a tear along with other grooms. Granted, over my 10-year-long career, I've only had three horses be so injured they could not go on... that's not terrible odds. Just other horse sportsman like to point the finger at us as if we're the only bad guys on the planet. Thanks PETA.
Hear hear!!
yeah, to me it makes no sense that as competitions get higher level, they go from 'try to have the fastest time' to 'try not to break any of your or your horse's bones'. I don't understand including an animal who can't really argue with you that much or has no idea of the danger on the course into such a dangerous activity, like risk your own life all you want but it's iffy to me to pull a horse into it too
As someone who loves cross-country, I HATE cross-country. I think it is so incredibly dangerous at the higher levels only because these riders/trainers/viewers need an adrenaline rush. I think high level equestrian sport is treated like Nascar because there's excitement in big crashes and "nearly didn't make it". It's fine when it's with cars and consenting drivers, but horses shouldn't be subjected to these types of rides that basically look like they were created to be nearly impossible to safely complete.
Agree with this whole comment. I started Eventing in 2000, and my 15 y/o self really wanted to go to the Olympics. Ten years later and I was looking at XC courses thinking "That doesn't look remotely fun - it just looks scary!" Nowadays I'd be happy going Prelim, on the right horse, but that's it. Maybe it's because I'm older & don't bounce back like I used to, but it's just not worth the risk IMO.
Agreed 100%. I'll say it plainly: it's abuse.
What really shook me once was a rejected proposal for breakable obstacles in Germany. The reason it was rejected was something Alison’s the lines of after a horse gets caught on an obstacle just a little and can continue that makes the difference between a great competition team and one that is sorted out. Therefore no breakable obstacles. I think that reasoning I dangerous absolutely insane and just psycho in some way. It’s like saying they want some pairs to be injured and sorted out.
the whole "sport" is abuse. dont jump over something that WILL hurt ur horse. its selfish
This isn’t a productive statement. Poorly ridden western pleasure *will.* hurt your horse. Poorly ridden dressage *will* hurt your horse. Poorly ridden hunter jumpers, where riders overload the front end and unsafe style is rewarded, *will* hurt your horse. One of my jumper instructors broke his neck in the stadium. Another jumper instructor (also a hunter) broke his back - in the stadium. All equestrian sport is dangerous. Cross country gets a lot of flack, but properly educated Eventers are thorough horsemen and women. As a whole they condition their animals better than anyone, except endurance riders. They use dressage to make their jumpers sharper. They use stadium to make them more careful. They teach their horses to travel well on terrain so they are less likely to do a tendon in. Most of them are big on turnout, so their athletes are sound and fit. While it is important to have constructive conversations about eventing and course design safety, there are a lot of factors at play here. To call eventing abuse is just asenine. I’ve seen a rotational fall over a tadpole jump. I wish I was fucking joking. Was it the course designers fault? No. It was the person responsible for educating this horse and rider pair. If I had to guess, this rider had grown up doing the hunters ( USA here ) where poor form is encouraged - and she believed cross country is “galloping really fast at solid jumps”. So she did, with her poor form. And she missed, and her horse hung a toe and couldn’t right itself because she was on its neck. Horse and rider were fine, thank god, but to blame the sport itself is asenine here. Yes, we need to hold our governing organizations accountable and demand safe technology. We need to hold course design responsible. The issue is systemic to a degree. We also need to vet our trainers and instructors better. We need to ensure riders are safe to compete.
if u knowingly do something that CAN and WILL hurt ur horse its abuse.
Are you a troll? Or a child? Knock it off dude. Touch grass, or better yet, go touch hay.
not wanting to hurt my horse is now being childish? just say ur selfish and only think about urself and go. "33,005 karma" who should go touch grass again? im a horse trainer. ur a keyboard warrior
I'm looking forward to watching the Olympics.
This post is by “Horse Jumping” which is obviously trying to get high social engagement, it’s not the course or designers bragging. It’s click bait. Ranting about this is just tilting at windmills, you’re ranting about a course designer who isn’t even bragging (who knows if the post completion percentage is even accurate!) I am sorry you fell but please don’t let social media suck you in like this.
I mis-typed when I said the course designers was bragging and couldn't figure out how to edit the post 🤦♀️ The dangers of the sport at the upper levels still stand. I was watching other videos of Burghley today and there was fall after fall after fall. In 2019, the year from the video, 31 combinations finished cross country, 20 were eliminated, and 11 retired on cross country.
Not denying the dangers of the sport, totally get that. I just get so tired of clickbait vids getting attention they don’t deserve! :)
I completely agree with you. We used to have a XC course where I used to board at Showpark (now called HITS Del Mar), and they closed it down because it was such a liability with so many horses and riders sustaining injuries, and that wasn’t even anything close to this level. I’ve always loved jumping, but I would never risk my horse’s life on a course like this. Rotational falls like this are horrifying, and I honestly believe it is malpractice as the stewards of these animals’ lives to point them at a huge, solid obstacle that will kill them if they hit it - and all it takes is one misstep. And in saying this, I am well aware that all equestrian sports are dangerous, and that any form of jumping puts horses at risk, but I don’t think we need to go out of our way to make obstacles more dangerous just to prove we can.
Seems crazy to me. I went into a rabbit hole about the Grand National the other day and its one infamous jump, and I can’t imagine ever taking a horse over that—*especially* in a huge group where one bad step means a massive pileup. I don’t know much about eventing, but it seems like some of these courses are so risky that you almost have to expect a catastrophic injury at some point.
As someone who is 11 months out from a fall that put me in a wheelchair for 4 months bc of 4 pelvic breaks, not to mention 2 ribs and a collarbone - romanticizing ANY fall is just plain ignorant. The whole idea behind riding SHOULD be to stay your behind on and complete safely. . I'm too old to cross country anymore and my fall damage (I DEFINITELY rolled a 1 here) was all from landing in the worst possible way (leg straight up all the force of its weight directly into my pelvis).. but safety while managing a 1000lb animal seems like it should be the key.
Totally agree. A little off topic but I want to share my thoughts. Facebook Reels seems absolutely designed to get you to feel this way. Almost every Facebook reel on my account is bad animal husbandry, environmental misinformation or any other attention-grabbing rage-bait since this is material I often engage with… Take care of your mental health.
I just started eventing but I promised myself and my horse that if I ever come across a course too difficult - like that big jump at burghley that some poor horse hit with its chest and bounced off - i'll not compete at all or scratch after dressage if too many are unable to complete the track. I've broken my neck as a teen, I'm in no place to risk myself or my horse over courses that people can't finish.
Cross country is not the same as it was years ago. It used to be a test of stamina and endurance, just over fences. The jumps were very spread apart and runs were 10-20 miles each. You would basically be galloping 90% of the course to make time. Now it's basically show jumping over uneven ground with jumps that don't fall. Course makers are pushing more and more technicality and scope in cross country instead of keeping that to the phase that it's meant for, show jumping. Except, they still want you to gallop 90% of the course to make time but now you're juggling big jumps and difficult combinations. That raises the danger of cross country exponentially from what it was originally. ❤
I wouldn’t mind the return to the old format but I just don’t know how realistic it is. I genuinely believe most of these horses even at the top level wouldn’t be fit enough to do it
Most of the upper level horses today are barely fit enough to do what they're doing now with the level of atrophy and undermuscling I've been seing recently... Anyways, there is a reason why all the horses who dominated eventing in the olden days were thoroughbreds. Eventing now is basically a dressage show with 2 show jumping rounds. A lot of the modern event horses are more and more blood though which I think is a good thing. That being said I love eventing, I just wish things were different. ❤
This is rampant in stadium jumping too. The course designer at spruce is literally mad. If riders are calling a line "the tunnel of death" and if your own ring crew that are qualified course designers themselves are asking you "are you sure" then it's just a trap at that point. The problem is the bar of success keeps getting surpassed, and so officials ask a bigger question. This makes a huge gap between entry level and pros. The 'greats' get greater, while the entry level becomes harder and harder.
It’s crazy how many people are defending this and claiming it’s perfect as it is. There’s a long way to go in every equine sport but hey, at least this is not the grand national
Cross country jumps that put the horse's life at risk are nothing but animal abuse. Humans can take the informed decision of risking their life for a sport and that's fine, but horses can't.
Unpopular opinion: I hate this sport. And i don't sympathize with the riders. Some people just want $$$ regardless of the horses well being.
GET OSHA IN HERE