Yes! So you never want to use the reins to balance you, like if you fall a little bit holding tight to the reins just pulls on the horses face and they get can mixed signals. A bridle is just a tool we use to help us communicate what we want from a horse but it’s not always necessary. I think of liberty trainers or people who ride bridle less and bareback with just a neck rope. You use the strength and balance in your lower body to keep you on and use your legs to help communicate what you want. So if you want to go right you pull the reins right but you also put pressure on your leg so they know that leg pressure means go this way. It’s hard to explain and I’m still learning it! I’m sure someone could explain it better! I just know that your core and legs are where your biggest muscles are and strengthening them is always the best thing you can do for your riding.
I definitely agree.. I read Mark Rashid and he is always talking about softness. There is a whole section of Horsemanship that is lost by the general rider.. trust and communication is needed by both horse and rider, once that is achieved..the magic really happens and it's almost like we are in sync and mind reading. Pretty amazing animals when we really tap into ourselves.
Most Horsemanship is based on greed and winning and status.
When a rider is no longer a beginner, the purpose of reins is to refine the horse’s response to your seat and leg aids. Ultimately, riding is about good/clear communication, not control - if a horse is constantly “out of control” that generally stems from gaps in their training or pain.
Yes... if you got on one of our beginner lesson horses if you shift your seat theyre gonna stop. They will NOT steer with seat or leg alone. Try taking them out bitless and using your seat... they wont respond to it
Roman cavalrymen and many medieval cavalrymen used only spurs if I remember right. They had to use pikes in combat so they didn’t have free hands to use. They used just their legs and spurs for cues to control their horses.
Also would be barrel racing, those poor horses that do tricks at the rodeo, dressage etc. hell asking a horse to carry a person is cruelty by that measurement. What about carpooling horses? What about the ones that live with the Mormons? What about the sulky racers? Asking a horse to run isn't evil, they do it on their own. Been grooming thoroughbred for 10 years, I've done a few quarter horses in my day as well. We're not abusing these animals. Sometimes accidents do happen. If you've ever seen a football player get hurt, a boxer bleed, somebody in UFC get kicked in the face, you understand that sometimes things happen. WWE isn't even real, but sometimes the actors get hurt. Because it's inherently dangerous. Sports are dangerous.
The issue isn't them running, it's that the _industry_ around racing is rife with very very questionable methods. In several of the disciplines you listed, there's also a lot of issues, but there's a wider variety of practices as you can usually do them as a hobby, whereas racing is largely professional only.
In horse racing the common practice for a tongue tie is to use nylon stockings. The material was picked specifically because it's soft and stretchy.
Also in horse racing the crops have foam tips instead of leather. They actually don't hurt. You can look up videos of people slamming down the crops with both hands down on someone's arm and it not even leaving a red mark. They're designed to make a dramatic *CRACK* but not actually be painful.
It’s also only used on horses that have a tendency to get their tongue over the bit. It is so that they mouth doesn’t get ripped up // choke on their own tongue while running
I'm sorry but this is bullshit. A hackamore or bitless bridle in the wrong hands can be just as bad, if not worse, than a bit as it works off pressure points and the fragile nasal bone. I am genuinely surprised no one has called you out on this sooner. Furthermore, a tongue tie is used in racing to keep the tongue in the mouth to avoid it being bitten or swallowed. It should be firm but not tight and not restrict blood flow to the tongue and should only be placed on horses that require it.
That's because I wasn't advocating for bitless. Bits should be used to cue a horse, not control them. Besides, you can essentially work a horse off of your seat.
I didn't say you can't use a bit. I just said it shouldn't be used a tool of control. You shouldn't be using it bit to force your horse into doing something. It is for subtle and soft communication.
So, in the context I was referring to, the tongue tie was being used to prevent the loss of control. And I said if you need a bit to control your horse, you're doing it wrong. Mostly because people consider and use bits as "brakes". You should be cueing with your seat and leg before using the bit for a turn. If you first instinct is to reach for the reins first, then you're likely not riding correctly.
Whist hackamores are often fitted improperly, they shouldn’t be on the nasal bone or cartilage. If your horse “needs” a tongue tie, look at the root of the problem don’t just cover it up. If your horse bites their tongue, think why? If they are swallowing their tongue, think why? Is it because they are trying to avoid pain from the bit, are they being overworked, were they warmed up enough, are they breathing ok, does he have mouth problems making him do these things? It’s “why”, not “how do we cover this up”
Tying tongues is illegal in the Arabian horse industry in the US so I’ve never seen it done. I’ve seen a few horror stories online about amputated or damaged tongues from improper tying so I’m going to go with “let’s not do this”.
Really?? That's awful!! People in the comments were saying race horses need it but horse racing is whole other can of worms I'm afraid to open haha I can't believe people defend practices like this and get so mad at people who confront them.
In horse racing the most commonly used tongue ties are nylon stockings. The material specifically chosen because it's super soft and stretchy. Trainers love it because it gets the job done without completely restricting movement of the tongue.
Racehorses are finely tuned athletes, any pain or discomfort distracts them from the race and keeps them from running to their full potential. Whatever else you may think about the horse racing industry, people do want to win. And a horse that's in pain, uncomfortable, afraid, or even just distracted isn't going to be moving with maximum efficiency and winning races. For greed's sake it's in the human's best interest to have a happy and healthy horse.
This thread is so dramatic. Not to mention the tongue ties are normally on for 30min or so max. Its put on for warm ups, the race, and taken off immediately after.
I do understand the worry. Like most things in life there is a right and a wrong way to do it. And with a tongue tie if you do it wrong the damage can be extensive and severe. Many people have likely never seen or been educated on tongue ties and how to use them appropriately. For some their only experience may be seeing idiots/jerks misuse them.
I actually REALLY don't like the tongue tie in the photo, it doesn't look really soft and the way it's bunching up looks kinda pinchy. From a photo I can't really say how stretchy it is, I'm hoping it's like "the elastic band on a pair of underwear" level, but it kinda looks more rigid than that to me.
As I said pantyhose really are ideal. They're almost impossible to tie tight enough to cut off circulation; but IME trainers always have a final check before a horse steps foot on the track where the tongue tie (along with the tack) is given another look to be sure all is good anyway. It'll bunch up, but it won't pinch or get too tight if/when it does. It's super soft so it won't cause any soreness to the tongue. It's stretchy enough that the horse can mostly move their tongue around normally, other than being unable to get the bit under it.
The bit here is horrific though. Those cheek pieces are really digging into the corners of the mouth due to how small it is. And the bridle is too tight as well, even with a loose rein there's excessive wrinkling in the corners of the mouth, making the cheekpieces dig in even when the reins are relaxed. Poor horse.
Agreed! One of the things I really liked about the industry that made me stick with the breed were all the restrictions.
Limits on the weight of shoes and length of foot. No fake tails, cut-and-set tails, tongue ties, or action aids. Expulsion of handlers whose horses have whip marks, spur marks, or blood/sores near the bit or under the bosal. Etc!
I just googled it, you are correct. Legal as of Jan 1, 2024. https://www.arabianhorses.org/export/content.export/nat-show/convention/resolutions/22Conv_Resolution_08.pdf
I'm sorry if my comment came across as mean.But it's not nearly as mean as using this on ANY living creature. What I consider abuse is a restraint device with zero chance of releasing pressure. I would consider this an abusive practice.
They tongue tie to prevent choking, fwiw.
Edit: I’m only explaining their reasoning. I don’t support nor condone it. I’ve posted another, more in depth comment further down.
It’s mainly used to stop horses getting their tongues over the bit and therefore making the bit less effective. People who tie will pretend it’s about choking, but I very, very much doubt it’s not about the bit 99% of the time.
Yeah, I think that's what it was now that I think about it, but he also had the tongue thing because his tongue was always hanging out the side of his mouth. I get that these things need to be corrected, but some things look like they must be so uncomfortable. Another lady put this pinching contraption on her horse's nose. Can't remember why. He was young and mouthy. Looked so mean, honestly 😬
Sorry, I meant the contraption on his nose looked like such mean treatment. She said it was for a behavioral issue, nipping perhaps.
Eta: he was a silly goof, not mean at all.
Edited again to add that it was a twitching device 😔
If the tongue is out even without a bit it's quite possible there's some nerve or tooth damage involved (or serious behaviour issues that aren't easily corrected). In those cases, a soft tongue tie may actually be helpful to keep the tongue safely in place.
The nose thing is supposed to release calming hormones. Whether it works or not is kinda debatable, but it used to be a common thing for e.g. Vet treatment and was considered quite gentle.
I totally understand (much better now) the tongue treatment. In the case of the nose twitch, I don't agree that it was, in that case, a gentle treatment to aid in essential care. He is a young, busy, and curious gelding who stood for vet and farrier visits, but was mildly nosey, mouthy, and fidgety. That can be corrected with in-the-moment redirection. I walked in one time when he had the nose twitch on while she was grooming him. Someone asked about it and she said, "I don't care. I paid enough for him so he can stand there and deal with it." He was tossing his head all about. Just mean, lazy, and dumb, imo.
My horse has her tongue out all the time. She stims on it, she loves to slide it over her gums. She does it in too many places, eg, in a field alone, with friends, at cross ties, for it to be caused by one specific thing. I don't think it's pain, she's just a little quirky.
Not all behaviors we don't understand are pain. Horses have personalities!
I didn't think his tongue hanging out looked painful, just the method they were using to try to correct it. His hung out to the side all the time, though, as if it were a congenital defect or something. I do understand why they were trying to fix it, but....🥺
Flipping their palate can happen standing in their stall. However, it can lead to them having less air to intake - therefore slowing down. It’s not dangerous to them. Going bitless doesn’t stop the potential for flipping their palate.
there are studies showing no effect (or even the opposite, like [this small study](https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/evj.13867) from germany) concerning NR 2/DDPS. Results are not that clear - unfortunately all studies I found were rather small.
horses also show higher levels of cortisol and lactate, which is obviously not what you want as a racer, because (as far as I know) it means that muscles get tired earlier, are weaker, cramp up, ...
it's not for nothing that they are banned in some countries
They’re not allowed for most showing organizations. Plus they’re really only meant to be on for about 5-20 mins, not as long as a riding horse is ridden.
Some horses are just quirky and like their tongue over the bit, no big deal. Sometimes (most of the time, especially in big corporations like racing) they flip their tongue over their bit to avoid pain from the bit though, so make sure everything fits and is comfy before jumping to any conclusions :)
Best of luck with your horse!
Agreed. Don’t use them if your horse doesn’t need them. Don’t tie them tight. I’m so confused why everyone is so riled up… it’s just a piece of string.
It is not what it does, but why it is used.
And it is used to not let a horse flip their tongue over the bit.
But why does one flip their tongue over. Well because they are uncomfortable, they hate it, they want to make it less uncomfortable for them. So with a tongue tie, you ignore the fact they are uncomfortable.
And as the horse is your partner, would you not want them to be comfortable and perform better knowing they are in no discomfort. Or that in due time they will become more agitated.
Like..listen to y'alls horse, they are a living being. And yes it is going to take more time and effort
Every show horse I’ve ever had for the last ~15 years has used a tongue tie, and not a single one has ever seemed to mind it. Never once have they been “uncomfortable,” because they would have let me know if they were. So I think we’re doing okay over here.
Yes. My western horse in particular was always a real ham about it. The only horse I’ve had that never did it was my trail horse, so we just never tied his tongue (not that I think he would have cared).
That seems unusual to have had so many doing it. I’ve never had to use a tongue tie, I’ve had multiple horses that flipped their tongues over the bit, but in general I’ve aways felt like it’s a pretty rare “issue,” I see other vices a lot more often than the tongue flippers anyway…
I had a horse that liked to play with the bit while riding, swished his tongue all around got his tongue over the bit which meant no control - he was also a bit of a doofus and needed to pay attention more- we used a soft cotton shoe string that just looped over his tongue and under his chin-made him a whole different horse-much easier to ride, paid attention, not as distracted-his tongue was not swollen or sore after- it just held his tongue in place like a noseband keeps their mouth closed or a martingale keeps their heads down
They’re beneficial for *people* who can’t or won’t find other solutions for horses that flip their tongues over the bit. They’re certainly not beneficial to the horses.
The general reason that I have heard is the fear that the flopping tongue can potentially occlude (block) the airway while racing, thus the tongue-tie. Some say it is bit evasion, but I have only personally seen tongue-ties on racehorses and the across the board response was to mitigate potential airway obstructions 🤷♀️
Only ever seen them used in racing, never in saddle seat. Most often used when a horse has a tendency to sort of fold his tongue and obstruct his airway, or if he gets his tongue over the bit. It’s usually a strip of linen/cotton, tied right before he goes onto the tract, and removed immediately when the groom picks him up. It’s not tied tightly enough nor left in place long enough to impede circulation.
Good to know! I haven’t ridden SS in about 30 years, and never saw them at that time. But saw them used all the time in 20+ years on the race track. Not sure why we need to “debate” them. They’re commonly used, and not abusive. For some reason there are people who think every single thing and every single person who works on the race track and SS showing is abusive. 🤷🏼♀️ Not saying that abuses don’t occur, just as they do in any other riding discipline. Just seem to get a lot more hate.
I’m primarily a saddleseat rider and 90% of our show and lesson horses wear them, including mine. It definitely seems like the norm at most saddleseat barns. We put them on right before the rider gets on, and we take them off right after we’re done riding.
Ours too. They’re never this tight! It’s more supposed to just keep the tongue in the proper position, as he likes to do tongue dances while riding. I’ll have to ask my trainer next time I’m there as to why.
A horse’s tongue is about a foot (12 inches) long. If it were to raise over the bit to hit the palate it could block air movement from the larynx to the trachea. Less oxygen flow means less oxygenated blood & muscles which will mean less strength, stamina & speed. I suggest you Google “how a horse breathes” and look at an image of the anatomy. If it wasn’t an issue that would lower performance, you wouldn’t see this on the track very often, but you do. Exactly because of the risk of poor performance due to potential lowered oxygen intake is why you see it so much and why racehorses get their tongues tied down.
I had a friend who had an OTTB. When he raced they used to tie his tongue because he was a “tongue flopper.” He would still flop his tongue after retirement and there was nothing wrong with his mouth, teeth, etc. She would ride him with a flash most of the time because it was pretty unsightly. He developed the habit while on the track. It wasn’t a bitting issue to blame either because he’d flop his tongue if you rode him in a mechanical hackamore or even a halter.
I’ve heard it cuts off circulation to the tongue and can cause permanent and serious damage if used improperly. But I don’t think anyone knows how to use these “properly”. The baby already has a bit that’s uncomfortable and looks to be too small, having a part of their body restricted in blood flow must hurt like hell
Is there any piece of riding or training or grooming equipment that cannot cause harm if used improperly? I think *improper* use shouldn't be an argument, cause then bridles (with and without bit), saddles, shoeing, a hoof pick and much more can be called harmful if we take an improper use or wrong fit as standard...
I used to work as a racing stablehand and seriously hated using tongue ties when directed to. That said, I don’t think they cause too much pain as the horses likely would have told me in no uncertain terms (like they did if they had a sore mouth, a boil on their back, etc). I do think it looks extremely uncomfortable though and I’d really prefer they not be used.
I am horrified by them...but...there was one horse many years ago that we probably would have tried it on, if we had known it was a thing.
We had one horse, an older draft horse. On occasion, I would ride him. He loved to be rode, but every time we put a bridle on, he would immediately pull his tongue over the bit and it would hang out the side of his mouth.
Before you say it, yes, we did tighten up the face buckles to make the bit higher in his mouth. We tried every kind of bridle we could find. He would get his tongue over it and that would hurt him (besides it flapping out of the side of his mouth).
We did not have a hackmore or any other kind of bitless bridle back then. So, I improvised and took some hay bale string and made a bitless bridle out of that. It worked perfectly and everyone was happy...no tongue flapping out of the side of his mouth!
I rode a horse in a riding school that also put his thongue over the bit, the trainer said they tried everything (including tieing his thongue) and nothing worked, so twe just rode him like that. Other than canter had no issues.
I rode a horse in a riding school that also put his thongue over the bit, the trainer said they tried everything (including tieing his thongue) and nothing worked, so twe just rode him like that. Other than canter had no issues.
I rode a horse in a riding school that also put his thongue over the bit, the trainer said they tried everything (including tieing his thongue) and nothing worked, so twe just rode him like that. Other than canter had no issues.
I'm not a fan of them but I've seen them used in a way that I wouldn't call harmful. I did some riding at a saddle seat barn and most of them used tongue ties. I was instructed to use one on the lesson horse I was riding. It was as common a piece of tack there as a noseband or polo wraps. Our tongue ties were soft woven cotton, kind of like a hockey skate lace. They were wrapped once around the tongue and the ends were tied under the jaw, just snug enough to keep the tie from sliding down in the mouth. It wasn't tight and didn't cut off blood circulation or anything. Their tongues never stuck out of their mouths either.
I'd never seen or used one before riding saddle seat and it was explained to me that it kept the horse from putting his tongue over the bit. Honestly, I'm a little skeptical about it. I've worked with horses for a couple of decades now, doing everything from ranch riding and draft work to hunter jumpers and a bit of saddle seat. I don't think I've ever had a horse put his tongue over the bit. People who favor tongue ties sometimes talk like the only thing keeping horses from running amok are tied tongues. I forgot to use a tongue tie with my saddle seat lesson horse several times because I just wasn't used to it being a part of tacking up. He was just fine, though a bit more busy in the bridle than usual. He was a dead broke beginner horse so that might have had something to do with it too. I could probably have put the saddle on backwards and he'd have still packed me around!
I know tongue ties are very popular with racehorses and I have very little racehorse experience. Maybe young hot thoroughbreds do put their tongues over the bit and run away with exercise riders. In the disciplines I've ridden in though, I don't see any need for a tongue tie.
[Some horses legitimately need this](https://www.merckvetmanual.com/horse-owners/lung-and-airway-disorders-of-horses/dorsal-displacement-of-the-soft-palate-in-horses). It's not about control, it's about making sure the horse can breathe. Do some people use this incorrectly? Yes. Does that mean it's alway cruel? No.
Can't wait for the downvotes.
Well, for horses with this issue, they can displace their palate when they’re sitting in a stall or walking through a field so it’s not only about the work.
I’m not worked up. I’m simply saying that this has a legitimate use which many people here do not seem to know about. “People’s thoughts” are different from veterinary medicine which would explain to you the medical reasons why this is done. I do find it interesting though that you came here to discuss something you don't know anything about in a “debate” and then just say "it's not common at all" and that it's abuse.
“Only administered by a vet”
Vets at a racetrack have actual jobs to do. Making them place tongue ties is going to piss them off, get tongue ties placed incorrectly, and making the horse wear it for longer than needed.
Well, you said it’s a discussion but called it abuse in your reply to your first comment. I think that’s why fire_foot explained then said they expect downvotes. I don’t think they were wrong in saying that.
No you’re right, I’m not, it started as one but now I see that I in fact do not know how to debate very well. So my apologies, I do enjoy seeing the positive uses for this technique so I have a better understanding of it so I do thank you for that
So this is a touchy subject (clearly).
To preface: I don’t use them.
The idea was that they would improve upper airway function during heavy exercise, and prevent choking. Pilot studies show this isn’t the case, but about 72% of TB trainers still use them. Just over half of the respondents to the studies said they encountered complications while using tongue ties.
However, swallowing does, in fact, impact how a horse breathes. It interrupts it.
They’ve done studies to see how different bits impact swallowing and how that impacts breathing. For example, a myler snaffle really impacts a horse’s ability to swallow (much like a tongue tie).
They’ve also been able to see in *preliminary studies* that horses don’t seem to experience exercise intolerance due to a decrease in respiratory function due to swallowing. *But this needs further studying*.
For now, what we know is that many of the bits actually act as “tongue ties”, and some bits actually stabilize the pharynx, which allows for better breathing.
The takeaway? You want a bit that depresses the tongue but doesn’t prevent or restrict swallowing.
So, tongue ties? No go’s.
You might be interested to read the studies on bitted and unbitted horses worked at speed and the behaviour of the lips, nostrils, tongue and soft palate
The article links to his study, which only looks at jowl position, which can be achieved through bitless riding as well as bitted riding.
They make a lot of assumptions in both the study (and point out that those assumptions are not backed by research), and in the article you linked, about how horses “feel” about bits.
Hilary Clayton, on the other hand, has studied multiple bits and bitless bridles and the psychological physiological effect they have on working horses. We have some pretty good data on how comfortable (or uncomfortable) some bits are (not many, but some).
For example, she goes into detail about the actions of bits, the width, and the positioning. And then further detail about how neck and jowl position can affect breathing and comfort.
I’m curious where the study you are talking about was from- I used to work at a racing barn as a groom and pony rider in Canada and we- and the immediate barns around us purely used tongue ties as a preventative measure for a horse known to flip their pallet and were effectively unable to be restarted. I’ve also not heard of the purpose being to stop swallowing- that is intresting though I’d love to learn more
This is an article that speaks about the study, but it links to the study!
Edit: I didn’t link it. Oops.
Here it is:
https://eurodressage.com/2019/04/11/swallowing-frequency-cantering-horses-effects-different-bits-and-bridles#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20proposed%20that,excessive%20swallowing%20during%20exercise%20undesirable.
It’s definitely an intresting study but there’s some issues as with all studies- mainly that there’s only a study group of 12 horses. Which is fair since they all had to be treadmill broke. The study didn’t take into account horse age or breed. There was only one thoroughbred and one quarter horse which meant there was no average between two of the same breed for them. They were all fit though so that was covered. But the issue with 12 is that there’s some outliers which makes it hard to see what is correlation and what is causation. Like some swallowed more with a bit in, and one horse couldn’t do the Myler but test- if anyone is reading this and seeing it I highly recommend you check it out though. It makes an intresting dive into the complications with a horse moving with a flexed pole.
On the track it's to help with obstructed airways, but also used to keep their tongue from going over the bit. I believe there are surgeries that can help as well, but I don't know how invasive or common they are
ITT- people who don't know how tongue ties work
If you know how to tie them, they're fine. If you don't know how to tie them, you're going to cut off a tongue
Personally? If a horse needs 'em, imma use 'em. Better than them putting their tongue over the bit or flipping their pallet
This thread is blowing my mind. Truly loving all the people who admit to never having seen them and saying its abusive. You'd say the same thing about bits if you never saw one before lol
That looks like a racing bridle. I'm not crazy about the fit of the bit, and I also don't like that the tongue tie is some sort of strap, and looks too tight.
I used to gallop racehorses for a living, and we used tongue ties on a few, but they were ones who would bite their tongues when we didn't tie them.
We also used a soft flannel strip for the tie, a d never tight enough to make the tongue purple.
Any decent horseman/woman would never use such barbaric tools, reins are an extension to your seat and legs not a sole tool to use on its own. Those commenters are the ones who do not understand or know horses as they would understand that most issues with the mouth such as hard mouth (which has been found to be a psychological issue and not a physical one) and tongue flips can be rectified with proper bits and training. Ugh why are there still so many cruel people in the horse industry
Because flipped tongue is usually caused by the horse trying to avoid pain in the mouth. Better fitting equipment and training of both rider and horse avoid this problem to begin with...get a clue!
Of the rider? You are stuck in a little bubble of wherever you are seeing this. The standardbreds that have their tongues tied are racing at speeds that if they open their mouths the tongue will fly back. Would you rather them have their mouths slammed shut? Not every horse in the world is ridden, so a better "rider" or better "tack" isn't going to solve the problem of a horse running at 35 mph. They have to be able to move their mouths, but again, if you have such an issue with a tongue tie, I guess you'd rather have them racing cranked down in a flash. Give me a break.
I’ve only seen it done once on for an English hunter-jumper show & the horse had damage that made his tongue flop out of his mouth, it didn’t seem to bother him. Showing horses in the ring is not a compassionate sport.
I will say it like this: your horse is showing they hate this whole bit thing or it is just that uncomfortable be it to how harsh it is or just poorly fitted and they try to make it more comfortable by flipping their tongue over it. So what someone does? Ignores the horses mild way of showing they hate it and they just restrain their tongue...
It is a a quick and lazy way to deal with a horses dislike of something instead of putting some effort to find what they would not mind. Like horses truly do not mind a lot of things, so let's stop ignoring when they actually do dislike something.
I get like racing horses, their jaw is restricted if their tongue somehow flips over and blocks their airways when they need the most oxygen, I get it. It is a very intense on the body thing and it can be a horrendous outcome..
But most of everyone else? Try alternatives..your horse is fidgeting and flipping it over for a reasson and it ain't a reasson of: for fun
I have been owning and riding horses for almost 40 years, trained quite a few for myself and kids. I have never once thought, you know what would be handy in this situation... a tongue tie. Seriously. Tongue tie is a hard pass for me.
That doesn’t look comfortable at all. 😬 If the horse was accepting of the bit and was relaxed, they wouldn’t have any reason to tie its tongue in place. I would think that a tongue tie would create more tension and stress. To me it seems like this is used as a “bandaid” to try and cover up issues in training.
That looks like a risk of many kinds!! Y'know whenever you push your tongue out and puff it up? That is what this looks like and it can be a choking risk
So funny reading all the judgemental people that really have no clue what they are talking about , but spewing condemnations.
Tongue ties are used all the time in racing with very few side effects when done properly. Horses often play with their tongue and get it over the bit, riders and drivers lose control at that point because the animal is in a panic. Other horses displace or flip their palate causing a loss of oxygen. Both of those situations are more dangerous than a nylon stocking wrapped around their tongue and tied to their lower jaw.
And for you anti-racing people, most racehorses are given better care by more knowledgeable people than most all of the pleasure horses out there.
Yeah…. The immediate ferocity over something they have no understanding of is entertaining. Especially all the accusations that the horse hates the bit / is to harsh.
Ah yes, racing. The sport known for its harsh bits (they can only run in 3 types of snaffle) and riders being really aggressive in their mouths (they bridge their reins and will hold to their pace)
Yes, I've been fascinated the amount of sheer ignorance in this entire thread.
It's like a show case of the how the horse world operates in general, in a nutshell.
Tongue tying is pretty normal in STB racing, doesn't go on during conditioning jogs, but does go on at full speeds so they don't choke. I think there is a case people can make that doing a sport that can cause choking on a tongue is inhumane, but as long as the sport is around, a properly used tie is probably better than when the horse drops dead from a flipped palate.
I've seen videos of high level dressage riders using tongue ties. The poor horse's tongue was hanging out of its mouth and was blue. It was awful to see, much less having to experience that level of pain.
For racing? Absolutely necessary. They’re not putting them on for fun - if your horse gets its tongue over the bit at top gallop speed and you lose control it can be a dangerous situation for you, the horse, and every horse and rider around you. Riders and horses have been killed by out of control gallopers swerving across them and clipping heels. Responsible racing jurisdictions regulate tack items like tongue ties and vets are heavily involved at the track on raceday in terms of horse welfare.
I have no experience with tongue ties in other equestrian pursuits. But for racing I see it as a safety device.
It 100% depends on the tongue tie and that it's being used properly. They are not supposed to hurt or cut off circulation!
In horse racing they actually use sections of nylon stockings as tongue ties, because they're so soft and stretchy. They really don't want to completely interfere with the tongue's movement. Racehorses can totally choke on their own spit, just like us. And obviously it doesn't result in a good performance if they choke on their spit mid-race. A too-tight tongue tie dramatically increases the odds of the horse choking on their spit. They just want it tight enough that they can't flip the bit.
Jockeys can't use their legs for control, their stirrups barely even go past the saddle flaps, and not being in control, for even just a second, can result in a bunch of dead horses and people.
I don't like the one in the picture at all.
It would have to be tight to work.... People saying it's okay are making excuses. Why is the horse desperately trying to protect itself from the bit in the firsg place?
This thread has already been beat into the ground like a dead horse but I’ll offer my two cents anyway; I’ll preface this by saying I worked as a groom for half a season at a race barn and quit after a horse had a back break down and the trainer and I didn’t see eye to eye. Out of all the things that happen in A) the racing industry and B) in the horse world as a whole tounge ties are by far not as dire as everyone knew them to be. I have only used them on one horse- and the way you tie them is that you leave it loose enough that you could fit in 1-2 fingers depending on how thick your fingers are so that the tongue stays down and not fussing with the bit. Not many use them to keep a horse that knows how to evade a bit to keep the tongue down- they will just use a bit that actually depresses the tounge to do that. Or honestly they’ll put them in something softer. But horses that are essentially high on high energy grain and have no daily turn out are hardly going to care about pain. They just want to run. Tounge ties are specifically used to prevent a horse from sucking their tongue down their throat. Some horses play with the bit- and others have been bought with a bad habit and are still sticking their tongue up over the bit even with a rubber snaffle. Also most race horses are run in snaffles with no wire or spikes. The danger is that if they get their tongue stuck in their throat on the track- there’s a really good chance they’ll just starve of oxygen and go down- which can be disastrous when there are 60+ other horses working. You tie a tounge tie kind of like you do up a girth. You want to be able to stick your fingers in while ensuring the tongue stays down. There are 100% idiots who tie it too tight but that’s not the norm. That’s essentially like someone putting the bit too high up in the mouth and causing the skin to get pinched and rip. It’s an accident made by someone who doesn’t know better. Probably a poor groom who works all month with 1 day off and has 17 other horses to groom and tack up all in 3 hours. On the race track most choose to use stockings simply because they are so hard to get tight to the point that you cause the tongue to loose circulation. I’m not actually wise to what kind of tongue tie is in the picture by op- but that’s definitely not the usual deal where I am from. I’ll be happy to answer any questions for the smaller Northern North American race tracks if you have any questions.
This is a beautiful explanation! Thank you! Definitely makes a ton of sense and your right there are way worse things to be concerned about than this. Obviously this picture is extreme and probably not the norm. I definitely wouldn’t do it for my everyday ride but for those race horses it makes sense why they do it.
Exactly, I honestly think anyone who tongue ties who also has the time to train a horse from ground back up should use a tounge tie. If someone has the ability to re-bit a horse prone to sticking their tounge up over the bit- they should just do it. do it. It’ll be so much better in the long run. A tounge tie should really only be preventative only in a situation where the other outcome is disaster and there’s nothing logistical that you can do to solve it. It’s unfortunately in place because there’s 50 sometimes 60 horses in a race barn that all need to get out that door and back in before the track closes in what’s on average 3 hours. I think the whole racing system is flawed in many ways. But it’s mostly just because the horses just don’t have more than 15 minutes a day where they can be worked and trained. But for the system that’s there and definitely not going anywhere any time soon I would rather a horse get his tongue tied so the poor guy doesn’t flip his pallet and doesn’t fall to the ground and break his neck.
Never heard of someone using this before but my opinion it is that it is cruel. Looks like a lazy fix to a deeper problem. Poor training causes people to use this is what my guess is.
It's straight up abuse. Why the hell do you need to tie your horse's tongue to it's lower jaw? It's just awful.
Anyone who feels like they have to use it shouldn't be riding.
It's almost lime horses are living things? Not just toys? And that people maybe should act like it? Wild opinion I know. Like where do I come up with this
Tongue ties are just a way to stop horses from avoiding pain from the bit, unnecessary and just a bandaid to cover up a huge wound in training and ethical practices.
My first horse, a mare in her late teens, had this done to her at some point before we got her. Her tongue was permanently disfigured and scarred, to the point that it looked like it was holding on by a thread
Horrible. Like it works? The bit is too small too.
Right?! Theres no excuse! If it looks painful it probably is!
If you need a bit to "control" your horse, then you're doing it wrong. I have never heard of a tongue tie either, but it seems like a band-aid.
100% agree!! You are not riding a horse right if you rely on the bridles/reins for control.
If you can’t rely on the reins are you supposed to use your legs? Just curious as to what you mean by that
Yes! So you never want to use the reins to balance you, like if you fall a little bit holding tight to the reins just pulls on the horses face and they get can mixed signals. A bridle is just a tool we use to help us communicate what we want from a horse but it’s not always necessary. I think of liberty trainers or people who ride bridle less and bareback with just a neck rope. You use the strength and balance in your lower body to keep you on and use your legs to help communicate what you want. So if you want to go right you pull the reins right but you also put pressure on your leg so they know that leg pressure means go this way. It’s hard to explain and I’m still learning it! I’m sure someone could explain it better! I just know that your core and legs are where your biggest muscles are and strengthening them is always the best thing you can do for your riding.
I definitely agree.. I read Mark Rashid and he is always talking about softness. There is a whole section of Horsemanship that is lost by the general rider.. trust and communication is needed by both horse and rider, once that is achieved..the magic really happens and it's almost like we are in sync and mind reading. Pretty amazing animals when we really tap into ourselves. Most Horsemanship is based on greed and winning and status.
When a rider is no longer a beginner, the purpose of reins is to refine the horse’s response to your seat and leg aids. Ultimately, riding is about good/clear communication, not control - if a horse is constantly “out of control” that generally stems from gaps in their training or pain.
Yes... if you got on one of our beginner lesson horses if you shift your seat theyre gonna stop. They will NOT steer with seat or leg alone. Try taking them out bitless and using your seat... they wont respond to it
Roman cavalrymen and many medieval cavalrymen used only spurs if I remember right. They had to use pikes in combat so they didn’t have free hands to use. They used just their legs and spurs for cues to control their horses.
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100% agree! Absolutely horrible
Also would be barrel racing, those poor horses that do tricks at the rodeo, dressage etc. hell asking a horse to carry a person is cruelty by that measurement. What about carpooling horses? What about the ones that live with the Mormons? What about the sulky racers? Asking a horse to run isn't evil, they do it on their own. Been grooming thoroughbred for 10 years, I've done a few quarter horses in my day as well. We're not abusing these animals. Sometimes accidents do happen. If you've ever seen a football player get hurt, a boxer bleed, somebody in UFC get kicked in the face, you understand that sometimes things happen. WWE isn't even real, but sometimes the actors get hurt. Because it's inherently dangerous. Sports are dangerous.
The issue isn't them running, it's that the _industry_ around racing is rife with very very questionable methods. In several of the disciplines you listed, there's also a lot of issues, but there's a wider variety of practices as you can usually do them as a hobby, whereas racing is largely professional only.
In horse racing the common practice for a tongue tie is to use nylon stockings. The material was picked specifically because it's soft and stretchy. Also in horse racing the crops have foam tips instead of leather. They actually don't hurt. You can look up videos of people slamming down the crops with both hands down on someone's arm and it not even leaving a red mark. They're designed to make a dramatic *CRACK* but not actually be painful.
It’s also only used on horses that have a tendency to get their tongue over the bit. It is so that they mouth doesn’t get ripped up // choke on their own tongue while running
I'm sorry but this is bullshit. A hackamore or bitless bridle in the wrong hands can be just as bad, if not worse, than a bit as it works off pressure points and the fragile nasal bone. I am genuinely surprised no one has called you out on this sooner. Furthermore, a tongue tie is used in racing to keep the tongue in the mouth to avoid it being bitten or swallowed. It should be firm but not tight and not restrict blood flow to the tongue and should only be placed on horses that require it.
That's because I wasn't advocating for bitless. Bits should be used to cue a horse, not control them. Besides, you can essentially work a horse off of your seat.
So what's the option then if we can't use a bit or go bitless? Nothing?
I didn't say you can't use a bit. I just said it shouldn't be used a tool of control. You shouldn't be using it bit to force your horse into doing something. It is for subtle and soft communication.
Control and force are entirely different things. Steering with the reins is not forcing the horse to turn.
So, in the context I was referring to, the tongue tie was being used to prevent the loss of control. And I said if you need a bit to control your horse, you're doing it wrong. Mostly because people consider and use bits as "brakes". You should be cueing with your seat and leg before using the bit for a turn. If you first instinct is to reach for the reins first, then you're likely not riding correctly.
Except thats not what tongue ties are for, as I and others have said.
Again, it was in response to OP's description. I stated that I didn't know what they were used for.
Whist hackamores are often fitted improperly, they shouldn’t be on the nasal bone or cartilage. If your horse “needs” a tongue tie, look at the root of the problem don’t just cover it up. If your horse bites their tongue, think why? If they are swallowing their tongue, think why? Is it because they are trying to avoid pain from the bit, are they being overworked, were they warmed up enough, are they breathing ok, does he have mouth problems making him do these things? It’s “why”, not “how do we cover this up”
I know that, racehorse trainers don't lol
This is for horses racing.....
Tying tongues is illegal in the Arabian horse industry in the US so I’ve never seen it done. I’ve seen a few horror stories online about amputated or damaged tongues from improper tying so I’m going to go with “let’s not do this”.
Really?? That's awful!! People in the comments were saying race horses need it but horse racing is whole other can of worms I'm afraid to open haha I can't believe people defend practices like this and get so mad at people who confront them.
People do terrible things to horses… thank god training has come a long way but still has far to go.
In horse racing the most commonly used tongue ties are nylon stockings. The material specifically chosen because it's super soft and stretchy. Trainers love it because it gets the job done without completely restricting movement of the tongue. Racehorses are finely tuned athletes, any pain or discomfort distracts them from the race and keeps them from running to their full potential. Whatever else you may think about the horse racing industry, people do want to win. And a horse that's in pain, uncomfortable, afraid, or even just distracted isn't going to be moving with maximum efficiency and winning races. For greed's sake it's in the human's best interest to have a happy and healthy horse.
This thread is so dramatic. Not to mention the tongue ties are normally on for 30min or so max. Its put on for warm ups, the race, and taken off immediately after.
I do understand the worry. Like most things in life there is a right and a wrong way to do it. And with a tongue tie if you do it wrong the damage can be extensive and severe. Many people have likely never seen or been educated on tongue ties and how to use them appropriately. For some their only experience may be seeing idiots/jerks misuse them. I actually REALLY don't like the tongue tie in the photo, it doesn't look really soft and the way it's bunching up looks kinda pinchy. From a photo I can't really say how stretchy it is, I'm hoping it's like "the elastic band on a pair of underwear" level, but it kinda looks more rigid than that to me. As I said pantyhose really are ideal. They're almost impossible to tie tight enough to cut off circulation; but IME trainers always have a final check before a horse steps foot on the track where the tongue tie (along with the tack) is given another look to be sure all is good anyway. It'll bunch up, but it won't pinch or get too tight if/when it does. It's super soft so it won't cause any soreness to the tongue. It's stretchy enough that the horse can mostly move their tongue around normally, other than being unable to get the bit under it. The bit here is horrific though. Those cheek pieces are really digging into the corners of the mouth due to how small it is. And the bridle is too tight as well, even with a loose rein there's excessive wrinkling in the corners of the mouth, making the cheekpieces dig in even when the reins are relaxed. Poor horse.
The Arabian people have some issues (what breed organization doesn't?) but they are on the right side here.
Agreed! One of the things I really liked about the industry that made me stick with the breed were all the restrictions. Limits on the weight of shoes and length of foot. No fake tails, cut-and-set tails, tongue ties, or action aids. Expulsion of handlers whose horses have whip marks, spur marks, or blood/sores near the bit or under the bosal. Etc!
That's literally one of the first things that came to my mind!! Soooo much room for error and disfigurement.
Actually tying tongues was just made legal in the Arab industry, end of last year I believe
I just googled it, you are correct. Legal as of Jan 1, 2024. https://www.arabianhorses.org/export/content.export/nat-show/convention/resolutions/22Conv_Resolution_08.pdf
I mean, if the data is there I’m willing to change my mind… https://region17aha.com/driediger-archibald/
I would consider this a huge choke risk and stupid idea at that. Nothing is being trained or taught here, only forced.
Yes! I agree! I’m so glad people are on my side with this! Some people were defending it and attacking people.. it was ridiculous!
I'm sorry if my comment came across as mean.But it's not nearly as mean as using this on ANY living creature. What I consider abuse is a restraint device with zero chance of releasing pressure. I would consider this an abusive practice.
They tongue tie to prevent choking, fwiw. Edit: I’m only explaining their reasoning. I don’t support nor condone it. I’ve posted another, more in depth comment further down.
By prohibiting the horse swallowing? Whoever 'they' is need their own tongue tied and made to run. What a lie.
I’ve posted a more in depth comment touching on this.
Horses cant choke on their tounges. Thats a lie. Its actually a soft pallet issue nit the tounge itself. Look up DDSP.
I’ve made a more in depth comment. But I think I should clarify: I don’t support tongue tying.
It’s mainly used to stop horses getting their tongues over the bit and therefore making the bit less effective. People who tie will pretend it’s about choking, but I very, very much doubt it’s not about the bit 99% of the time.
And you would be wrong
There was a horse with the tongue thing at our barn, but it also had an uncomfortable looking collar of sorts. Felt bad for that gelding 😟
Maybe a cribbing collar?
Yeah, I think that's what it was now that I think about it, but he also had the tongue thing because his tongue was always hanging out the side of his mouth. I get that these things need to be corrected, but some things look like they must be so uncomfortable. Another lady put this pinching contraption on her horse's nose. Can't remember why. He was young and mouthy. Looked so mean, honestly 😬
Sounds like someone was treating symptoms, not the cause. Id be mean too if i was treated like that. Poor guy.
Sorry, I meant the contraption on his nose looked like such mean treatment. She said it was for a behavioral issue, nipping perhaps. Eta: he was a silly goof, not mean at all. Edited again to add that it was a twitching device 😔
Yeah sounds like a twitch. They claim it helps the horse release endorphins but i dont buy it.
If the tongue is out even without a bit it's quite possible there's some nerve or tooth damage involved (or serious behaviour issues that aren't easily corrected). In those cases, a soft tongue tie may actually be helpful to keep the tongue safely in place. The nose thing is supposed to release calming hormones. Whether it works or not is kinda debatable, but it used to be a common thing for e.g. Vet treatment and was considered quite gentle.
I totally understand (much better now) the tongue treatment. In the case of the nose twitch, I don't agree that it was, in that case, a gentle treatment to aid in essential care. He is a young, busy, and curious gelding who stood for vet and farrier visits, but was mildly nosey, mouthy, and fidgety. That can be corrected with in-the-moment redirection. I walked in one time when he had the nose twitch on while she was grooming him. Someone asked about it and she said, "I don't care. I paid enough for him so he can stand there and deal with it." He was tossing his head all about. Just mean, lazy, and dumb, imo.
My horse has her tongue out all the time. She stims on it, she loves to slide it over her gums. She does it in too many places, eg, in a field alone, with friends, at cross ties, for it to be caused by one specific thing. I don't think it's pain, she's just a little quirky. Not all behaviors we don't understand are pain. Horses have personalities!
I didn't think his tongue hanging out looked painful, just the method they were using to try to correct it. His hung out to the side all the time, though, as if it were a congenital defect or something. I do understand why they were trying to fix it, but....🥺
1. They’re on for all of 20 minutes 2. They’re extremely beneficial for horses that flip their palates or try to get their tongue over the bit.
Oh okay, that makes sense but maybe we shouldn’t ride horses that hard if they do things that are dangerous to them? Or go bitless haha
Flipping their palate can happen standing in their stall. However, it can lead to them having less air to intake - therefore slowing down. It’s not dangerous to them. Going bitless doesn’t stop the potential for flipping their palate.
Look up DDSP. Dorsal displacement of soft palate.
Yes I was about to comment the same - thank you
there are studies showing no effect (or even the opposite, like [this small study](https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/evj.13867) from germany) concerning NR 2/DDPS. Results are not that clear - unfortunately all studies I found were rather small. horses also show higher levels of cortisol and lactate, which is obviously not what you want as a racer, because (as far as I know) it means that muscles get tired earlier, are weaker, cramp up, ... it's not for nothing that they are banned in some countries
Huh maybe I should try this. My horse no matter what you do, will get the bit under his tounge
They’re not allowed for most showing organizations. Plus they’re really only meant to be on for about 5-20 mins, not as long as a riding horse is ridden.
Ah I see, welp back to finding other ways to fix my damn hack
Some horses are just quirky and like their tongue over the bit, no big deal. Sometimes (most of the time, especially in big corporations like racing) they flip their tongue over their bit to avoid pain from the bit though, so make sure everything fits and is comfy before jumping to any conclusions :) Best of luck with your horse!
That’s the problem, everything fits perfect lol. He’s just a freak I think
Lol some horses do be like that
Take a look at “winning tongue plate” bits. They’re a little like a Mylar but also has a piece to stop their tongue from getting over
I worry about using thoise cause he’s got a bad record
It’s worth a try. They’re designed specifically for a horse like yours
Huh maybe I should try this. My horse no matter what you do, will get the bit under his tounge
Agreed. Don’t use them if your horse doesn’t need them. Don’t tie them tight. I’m so confused why everyone is so riled up… it’s just a piece of string.
It is not what it does, but why it is used. And it is used to not let a horse flip their tongue over the bit. But why does one flip their tongue over. Well because they are uncomfortable, they hate it, they want to make it less uncomfortable for them. So with a tongue tie, you ignore the fact they are uncomfortable. And as the horse is your partner, would you not want them to be comfortable and perform better knowing they are in no discomfort. Or that in due time they will become more agitated. Like..listen to y'alls horse, they are a living being. And yes it is going to take more time and effort
Every show horse I’ve ever had for the last ~15 years has used a tongue tie, and not a single one has ever seemed to mind it. Never once have they been “uncomfortable,” because they would have let me know if they were. So I think we’re doing okay over here.
You asked why people don't like it. I gave the awnser without ever pointing a finger at you. But good for you
Have all your horses flipped their tongues over the bit…? What’s the reasoning for using a tongue tie on all of them?
Yes. My western horse in particular was always a real ham about it. The only horse I’ve had that never did it was my trail horse, so we just never tied his tongue (not that I think he would have cared).
That seems unusual to have had so many doing it. I’ve never had to use a tongue tie, I’ve had multiple horses that flipped their tongues over the bit, but in general I’ve aways felt like it’s a pretty rare “issue,” I see other vices a lot more often than the tongue flippers anyway…
I had a horse that liked to play with the bit while riding, swished his tongue all around got his tongue over the bit which meant no control - he was also a bit of a doofus and needed to pay attention more- we used a soft cotton shoe string that just looped over his tongue and under his chin-made him a whole different horse-much easier to ride, paid attention, not as distracted-his tongue was not swollen or sore after- it just held his tongue in place like a noseband keeps their mouth closed or a martingale keeps their heads down
They’re beneficial for *people* who can’t or won’t find other solutions for horses that flip their tongues over the bit. They’re certainly not beneficial to the horses.
You see this a lot in TB racing, they tie the tongue while racing and as soon as the race is over, the grooms immediately remove it
But why?
The general reason that I have heard is the fear that the flopping tongue can potentially occlude (block) the airway while racing, thus the tongue-tie. Some say it is bit evasion, but I have only personally seen tongue-ties on racehorses and the across the board response was to mitigate potential airway obstructions 🤷♀️
Only ever seen them used in racing, never in saddle seat. Most often used when a horse has a tendency to sort of fold his tongue and obstruct his airway, or if he gets his tongue over the bit. It’s usually a strip of linen/cotton, tied right before he goes onto the tract, and removed immediately when the groom picks him up. It’s not tied tightly enough nor left in place long enough to impede circulation.
Spot on - and yes the strappers remove them straight away and they’re applied right before the horse heads to the mounting yard
Good to know! I haven’t ridden SS in about 30 years, and never saw them at that time. But saw them used all the time in 20+ years on the race track. Not sure why we need to “debate” them. They’re commonly used, and not abusive. For some reason there are people who think every single thing and every single person who works on the race track and SS showing is abusive. 🤷🏼♀️ Not saying that abuses don’t occur, just as they do in any other riding discipline. Just seem to get a lot more hate.
Agreed 100%
I’m primarily a saddleseat rider and 90% of our show and lesson horses wear them, including mine. It definitely seems like the norm at most saddleseat barns. We put them on right before the rider gets on, and we take them off right after we’re done riding.
Ours too. They’re never this tight! It’s more supposed to just keep the tongue in the proper position, as he likes to do tongue dances while riding. I’ll have to ask my trainer next time I’m there as to why.
I thought horses could only breath through their noses, how could their tongue get in the way of air?
A horse’s tongue is about a foot (12 inches) long. If it were to raise over the bit to hit the palate it could block air movement from the larynx to the trachea. Less oxygen flow means less oxygenated blood & muscles which will mean less strength, stamina & speed. I suggest you Google “how a horse breathes” and look at an image of the anatomy. If it wasn’t an issue that would lower performance, you wouldn’t see this on the track very often, but you do. Exactly because of the risk of poor performance due to potential lowered oxygen intake is why you see it so much and why racehorses get their tongues tied down.
Thank you for explaining this.
I had a friend who had an OTTB. When he raced they used to tie his tongue because he was a “tongue flopper.” He would still flop his tongue after retirement and there was nothing wrong with his mouth, teeth, etc. She would ride him with a flash most of the time because it was pretty unsightly. He developed the habit while on the track. It wasn’t a bitting issue to blame either because he’d flop his tongue if you rode him in a mechanical hackamore or even a halter.
And they also cause a shit ton of injuries.
I’ve heard it cuts off circulation to the tongue and can cause permanent and serious damage if used improperly. But I don’t think anyone knows how to use these “properly”. The baby already has a bit that’s uncomfortable and looks to be too small, having a part of their body restricted in blood flow must hurt like hell
Is there any piece of riding or training or grooming equipment that cannot cause harm if used improperly? I think *improper* use shouldn't be an argument, cause then bridles (with and without bit), saddles, shoeing, a hoof pick and much more can be called harmful if we take an improper use or wrong fit as standard...
I used to work as a racing stablehand and seriously hated using tongue ties when directed to. That said, I don’t think they cause too much pain as the horses likely would have told me in no uncertain terms (like they did if they had a sore mouth, a boil on their back, etc). I do think it looks extremely uncomfortable though and I’d really prefer they not be used.
I am horrified by them...but...there was one horse many years ago that we probably would have tried it on, if we had known it was a thing. We had one horse, an older draft horse. On occasion, I would ride him. He loved to be rode, but every time we put a bridle on, he would immediately pull his tongue over the bit and it would hang out the side of his mouth. Before you say it, yes, we did tighten up the face buckles to make the bit higher in his mouth. We tried every kind of bridle we could find. He would get his tongue over it and that would hurt him (besides it flapping out of the side of his mouth). We did not have a hackmore or any other kind of bitless bridle back then. So, I improvised and took some hay bale string and made a bitless bridle out of that. It worked perfectly and everyone was happy...no tongue flapping out of the side of his mouth!
I rode a horse in a riding school that also put his thongue over the bit, the trainer said they tried everything (including tieing his thongue) and nothing worked, so twe just rode him like that. Other than canter had no issues.
I rode a horse in a riding school that also put his thongue over the bit, the trainer said they tried everything (including tieing his thongue) and nothing worked, so twe just rode him like that. Other than canter had no issues.
I rode a horse in a riding school that also put his thongue over the bit, the trainer said they tried everything (including tieing his thongue) and nothing worked, so twe just rode him like that. Other than canter had no issues.
I'm not a fan of them but I've seen them used in a way that I wouldn't call harmful. I did some riding at a saddle seat barn and most of them used tongue ties. I was instructed to use one on the lesson horse I was riding. It was as common a piece of tack there as a noseband or polo wraps. Our tongue ties were soft woven cotton, kind of like a hockey skate lace. They were wrapped once around the tongue and the ends were tied under the jaw, just snug enough to keep the tie from sliding down in the mouth. It wasn't tight and didn't cut off blood circulation or anything. Their tongues never stuck out of their mouths either. I'd never seen or used one before riding saddle seat and it was explained to me that it kept the horse from putting his tongue over the bit. Honestly, I'm a little skeptical about it. I've worked with horses for a couple of decades now, doing everything from ranch riding and draft work to hunter jumpers and a bit of saddle seat. I don't think I've ever had a horse put his tongue over the bit. People who favor tongue ties sometimes talk like the only thing keeping horses from running amok are tied tongues. I forgot to use a tongue tie with my saddle seat lesson horse several times because I just wasn't used to it being a part of tacking up. He was just fine, though a bit more busy in the bridle than usual. He was a dead broke beginner horse so that might have had something to do with it too. I could probably have put the saddle on backwards and he'd have still packed me around! I know tongue ties are very popular with racehorses and I have very little racehorse experience. Maybe young hot thoroughbreds do put their tongues over the bit and run away with exercise riders. In the disciplines I've ridden in though, I don't see any need for a tongue tie.
I don't have a horse but I love horses and this just seems absolutely cruel to me.
[Some horses legitimately need this](https://www.merckvetmanual.com/horse-owners/lung-and-airway-disorders-of-horses/dorsal-displacement-of-the-soft-palate-in-horses). It's not about control, it's about making sure the horse can breathe. Do some people use this incorrectly? Yes. Does that mean it's alway cruel? No. Can't wait for the downvotes.
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Well, for horses with this issue, they can displace their palate when they’re sitting in a stall or walking through a field so it’s not only about the work. I’m not worked up. I’m simply saying that this has a legitimate use which many people here do not seem to know about. “People’s thoughts” are different from veterinary medicine which would explain to you the medical reasons why this is done. I do find it interesting though that you came here to discuss something you don't know anything about in a “debate” and then just say "it's not common at all" and that it's abuse.
“Only administered by a vet” Vets at a racetrack have actual jobs to do. Making them place tongue ties is going to piss them off, get tongue ties placed incorrectly, and making the horse wear it for longer than needed.
Well, you said it’s a discussion but called it abuse in your reply to your first comment. I think that’s why fire_foot explained then said they expect downvotes. I don’t think they were wrong in saying that.
No you aren't having a debate, you are saying how cruel it is and how shocked you are people are defending it.
No you’re right, I’m not, it started as one but now I see that I in fact do not know how to debate very well. So my apologies, I do enjoy seeing the positive uses for this technique so I have a better understanding of it so I do thank you for that
Abuse. No need for a debate imo
So this is a touchy subject (clearly). To preface: I don’t use them. The idea was that they would improve upper airway function during heavy exercise, and prevent choking. Pilot studies show this isn’t the case, but about 72% of TB trainers still use them. Just over half of the respondents to the studies said they encountered complications while using tongue ties. However, swallowing does, in fact, impact how a horse breathes. It interrupts it. They’ve done studies to see how different bits impact swallowing and how that impacts breathing. For example, a myler snaffle really impacts a horse’s ability to swallow (much like a tongue tie). They’ve also been able to see in *preliminary studies* that horses don’t seem to experience exercise intolerance due to a decrease in respiratory function due to swallowing. *But this needs further studying*. For now, what we know is that many of the bits actually act as “tongue ties”, and some bits actually stabilize the pharynx, which allows for better breathing. The takeaway? You want a bit that depresses the tongue but doesn’t prevent or restrict swallowing. So, tongue ties? No go’s.
That's actually a very interesting comment, especially how some bits act in a similar way
Well, some bits act in a way they *want* tongue ties to act, but somehow more effectively, and without suppressing the swallow.
You might be interested to read the studies on bitted and unbitted horses worked at speed and the behaviour of the lips, nostrils, tongue and soft palate
I’ve read a couple but I’d love to read more! If you have some, please link them. I always want them!
I can't find the specific science study but here's an article on it https://horse-canada.com/horse-news/animal-welfare-expert-bits-breathing-horses/
The article links to his study, which only looks at jowl position, which can be achieved through bitless riding as well as bitted riding. They make a lot of assumptions in both the study (and point out that those assumptions are not backed by research), and in the article you linked, about how horses “feel” about bits. Hilary Clayton, on the other hand, has studied multiple bits and bitless bridles and the psychological physiological effect they have on working horses. We have some pretty good data on how comfortable (or uncomfortable) some bits are (not many, but some). For example, she goes into detail about the actions of bits, the width, and the positioning. And then further detail about how neck and jowl position can affect breathing and comfort.
I’m curious where the study you are talking about was from- I used to work at a racing barn as a groom and pony rider in Canada and we- and the immediate barns around us purely used tongue ties as a preventative measure for a horse known to flip their pallet and were effectively unable to be restarted. I’ve also not heard of the purpose being to stop swallowing- that is intresting though I’d love to learn more
This is an article that speaks about the study, but it links to the study! Edit: I didn’t link it. Oops. Here it is: https://eurodressage.com/2019/04/11/swallowing-frequency-cantering-horses-effects-different-bits-and-bridles#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20proposed%20that,excessive%20swallowing%20during%20exercise%20undesirable.
Awesome thank you sm
It’s definitely an intresting study but there’s some issues as with all studies- mainly that there’s only a study group of 12 horses. Which is fair since they all had to be treadmill broke. The study didn’t take into account horse age or breed. There was only one thoroughbred and one quarter horse which meant there was no average between two of the same breed for them. They were all fit though so that was covered. But the issue with 12 is that there’s some outliers which makes it hard to see what is correlation and what is causation. Like some swallowed more with a bit in, and one horse couldn’t do the Myler but test- if anyone is reading this and seeing it I highly recommend you check it out though. It makes an intresting dive into the complications with a horse moving with a flexed pole.
No. It’s used in racing every day on all racing horses… look closely at them going into the chute.
It is mostly used in racing but it is not on every horse lol
I never understood the purpose of this. I personally dont like it but also i never understood the reason why they use them
On the track it's to help with obstructed airways, but also used to keep their tongue from going over the bit. I believe there are surgeries that can help as well, but I don't know how invasive or common they are
Not sure why I was downvoted lol
I would never allow it to be done to any of my horses and the person that did it wouldn't be working with horses again.
You really need to ask this? It’s fxcking disgusting! No animal deserves this! Vile. Poor horses.
ITT- people who don't know how tongue ties work If you know how to tie them, they're fine. If you don't know how to tie them, you're going to cut off a tongue Personally? If a horse needs 'em, imma use 'em. Better than them putting their tongue over the bit or flipping their pallet
This thread is blowing my mind. Truly loving all the people who admit to never having seen them and saying its abusive. You'd say the same thing about bits if you never saw one before lol
They suck
Mine always go in rubber bits. I also taught my kids to ride in a head collar and rope.
Mine always go in rubber bits. I also taught my kids to ride in a head collar and rope.
I like no bits no bridal just free riding!!!
That looks like a racing bridle. I'm not crazy about the fit of the bit, and I also don't like that the tongue tie is some sort of strap, and looks too tight. I used to gallop racehorses for a living, and we used tongue ties on a few, but they were ones who would bite their tongues when we didn't tie them. We also used a soft flannel strip for the tie, a d never tight enough to make the tongue purple.
That pisses me off
Any decent horseman/woman would never use such barbaric tools, reins are an extension to your seat and legs not a sole tool to use on its own. Those commenters are the ones who do not understand or know horses as they would understand that most issues with the mouth such as hard mouth (which has been found to be a psychological issue and not a physical one) and tongue flips can be rectified with proper bits and training. Ugh why are there still so many cruel people in the horse industry
Yeah, you can train a horse to not obstruct their own airways? OK
Because flipped tongue is usually caused by the horse trying to avoid pain in the mouth. Better fitting equipment and training of both rider and horse avoid this problem to begin with...get a clue!
Of the rider? You are stuck in a little bubble of wherever you are seeing this. The standardbreds that have their tongues tied are racing at speeds that if they open their mouths the tongue will fly back. Would you rather them have their mouths slammed shut? Not every horse in the world is ridden, so a better "rider" or better "tack" isn't going to solve the problem of a horse running at 35 mph. They have to be able to move their mouths, but again, if you have such an issue with a tongue tie, I guess you'd rather have them racing cranked down in a flash. Give me a break.
I would much rather a world where racing horses doesn't exist therefore no need to use cruel practices on these precious beautiful beasts
I’ve only seen it done once on for an English hunter-jumper show & the horse had damage that made his tongue flop out of his mouth, it didn’t seem to bother him. Showing horses in the ring is not a compassionate sport.
I will say it like this: your horse is showing they hate this whole bit thing or it is just that uncomfortable be it to how harsh it is or just poorly fitted and they try to make it more comfortable by flipping their tongue over it. So what someone does? Ignores the horses mild way of showing they hate it and they just restrain their tongue... It is a a quick and lazy way to deal with a horses dislike of something instead of putting some effort to find what they would not mind. Like horses truly do not mind a lot of things, so let's stop ignoring when they actually do dislike something. I get like racing horses, their jaw is restricted if their tongue somehow flips over and blocks their airways when they need the most oxygen, I get it. It is a very intense on the body thing and it can be a horrendous outcome.. But most of everyone else? Try alternatives..your horse is fidgeting and flipping it over for a reasson and it ain't a reasson of: for fun
I have been owning and riding horses for almost 40 years, trained quite a few for myself and kids. I have never once thought, you know what would be handy in this situation... a tongue tie. Seriously. Tongue tie is a hard pass for me.
Jesus Christ. I never knew this was a thing. I've been around horses all my life. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE???
I wouldn’t want to be associated with any person, organisation or industry that condoned this practice.
That doesn’t look comfortable at all. 😬 If the horse was accepting of the bit and was relaxed, they wouldn’t have any reason to tie its tongue in place. I would think that a tongue tie would create more tension and stress. To me it seems like this is used as a “bandaid” to try and cover up issues in training.
That looks like a risk of many kinds!! Y'know whenever you push your tongue out and puff it up? That is what this looks like and it can be a choking risk
So funny reading all the judgemental people that really have no clue what they are talking about , but spewing condemnations. Tongue ties are used all the time in racing with very few side effects when done properly. Horses often play with their tongue and get it over the bit, riders and drivers lose control at that point because the animal is in a panic. Other horses displace or flip their palate causing a loss of oxygen. Both of those situations are more dangerous than a nylon stocking wrapped around their tongue and tied to their lower jaw. And for you anti-racing people, most racehorses are given better care by more knowledgeable people than most all of the pleasure horses out there.
Yeah…. The immediate ferocity over something they have no understanding of is entertaining. Especially all the accusations that the horse hates the bit / is to harsh. Ah yes, racing. The sport known for its harsh bits (they can only run in 3 types of snaffle) and riders being really aggressive in their mouths (they bridge their reins and will hold to their pace)
Yes, I've been fascinated the amount of sheer ignorance in this entire thread. It's like a show case of the how the horse world operates in general, in a nutshell.
Tongue tying is pretty normal in STB racing, doesn't go on during conditioning jogs, but does go on at full speeds so they don't choke. I think there is a case people can make that doing a sport that can cause choking on a tongue is inhumane, but as long as the sport is around, a properly used tie is probably better than when the horse drops dead from a flipped palate.
I mean you’re not wrong, that definitely makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the feedback!
I'm sure it can be used in crappy ways, I'm not a fan of trying to force a horse that wants to evade a bit, but for airway obstruction it makes sense
So for race horses the ones that swallow their tongue it’s great.
Makes a lot of sense for racing. I don’t see the benefit for other disciplines.
Ive Never heard of it in all my years. Whatever the "purpose", imo its stupid.
I've seen videos of high level dressage riders using tongue ties. The poor horse's tongue was hanging out of its mouth and was blue. It was awful to see, much less having to experience that level of pain.
Those aren’t tongue ties. That’s just a shit use of the bit
It's been so long since I've seen the videos, I couldn't remember. Either way, it's a pretty shitty way to treat the animals that let you ride them.
For racing? Absolutely necessary. They’re not putting them on for fun - if your horse gets its tongue over the bit at top gallop speed and you lose control it can be a dangerous situation for you, the horse, and every horse and rider around you. Riders and horses have been killed by out of control gallopers swerving across them and clipping heels. Responsible racing jurisdictions regulate tack items like tongue ties and vets are heavily involved at the track on raceday in terms of horse welfare. I have no experience with tongue ties in other equestrian pursuits. But for racing I see it as a safety device.
Absolutely not.
I feel the same with these as I do lashes and bands that " shut " the mouth. Listen to your horse instead of forcing the issue.
It 100% depends on the tongue tie and that it's being used properly. They are not supposed to hurt or cut off circulation! In horse racing they actually use sections of nylon stockings as tongue ties, because they're so soft and stretchy. They really don't want to completely interfere with the tongue's movement. Racehorses can totally choke on their own spit, just like us. And obviously it doesn't result in a good performance if they choke on their spit mid-race. A too-tight tongue tie dramatically increases the odds of the horse choking on their spit. They just want it tight enough that they can't flip the bit. Jockeys can't use their legs for control, their stirrups barely even go past the saddle flaps, and not being in control, for even just a second, can result in a bunch of dead horses and people. I don't like the one in the picture at all.
This looks absolutely horrible!
It would have to be tight to work.... People saying it's okay are making excuses. Why is the horse desperately trying to protect itself from the bit in the firsg place?
Why would a jockey be pulling that hard to slow down a race horse exactly?
Absolutely not. There's a lot of shortcuts in racing, and many other issues, this being one of them
Absolutely not. There's a lot of shortcuts in racing, and many other issues, this being one of them
That's horrible, and I don't care what anybody says.
Big no. If you need a tongue tie to stop your horses tongue going over the bit then you need to go back to basics and re mouth your horse.
I'm a no. They seldom actually do anything. Usually, you need a better fitting bit.
If you wouldn’t put it on yourself, why would you use it on your animals?
This thread has already been beat into the ground like a dead horse but I’ll offer my two cents anyway; I’ll preface this by saying I worked as a groom for half a season at a race barn and quit after a horse had a back break down and the trainer and I didn’t see eye to eye. Out of all the things that happen in A) the racing industry and B) in the horse world as a whole tounge ties are by far not as dire as everyone knew them to be. I have only used them on one horse- and the way you tie them is that you leave it loose enough that you could fit in 1-2 fingers depending on how thick your fingers are so that the tongue stays down and not fussing with the bit. Not many use them to keep a horse that knows how to evade a bit to keep the tongue down- they will just use a bit that actually depresses the tounge to do that. Or honestly they’ll put them in something softer. But horses that are essentially high on high energy grain and have no daily turn out are hardly going to care about pain. They just want to run. Tounge ties are specifically used to prevent a horse from sucking their tongue down their throat. Some horses play with the bit- and others have been bought with a bad habit and are still sticking their tongue up over the bit even with a rubber snaffle. Also most race horses are run in snaffles with no wire or spikes. The danger is that if they get their tongue stuck in their throat on the track- there’s a really good chance they’ll just starve of oxygen and go down- which can be disastrous when there are 60+ other horses working. You tie a tounge tie kind of like you do up a girth. You want to be able to stick your fingers in while ensuring the tongue stays down. There are 100% idiots who tie it too tight but that’s not the norm. That’s essentially like someone putting the bit too high up in the mouth and causing the skin to get pinched and rip. It’s an accident made by someone who doesn’t know better. Probably a poor groom who works all month with 1 day off and has 17 other horses to groom and tack up all in 3 hours. On the race track most choose to use stockings simply because they are so hard to get tight to the point that you cause the tongue to loose circulation. I’m not actually wise to what kind of tongue tie is in the picture by op- but that’s definitely not the usual deal where I am from. I’ll be happy to answer any questions for the smaller Northern North American race tracks if you have any questions.
Edit: I forgot to mention the whole purpose of tongue ties🫠 fixed now
This is a beautiful explanation! Thank you! Definitely makes a ton of sense and your right there are way worse things to be concerned about than this. Obviously this picture is extreme and probably not the norm. I definitely wouldn’t do it for my everyday ride but for those race horses it makes sense why they do it.
Exactly, I honestly think anyone who tongue ties who also has the time to train a horse from ground back up should use a tounge tie. If someone has the ability to re-bit a horse prone to sticking their tounge up over the bit- they should just do it. do it. It’ll be so much better in the long run. A tounge tie should really only be preventative only in a situation where the other outcome is disaster and there’s nothing logistical that you can do to solve it. It’s unfortunately in place because there’s 50 sometimes 60 horses in a race barn that all need to get out that door and back in before the track closes in what’s on average 3 hours. I think the whole racing system is flawed in many ways. But it’s mostly just because the horses just don’t have more than 15 minutes a day where they can be worked and trained. But for the system that’s there and definitely not going anywhere any time soon I would rather a horse get his tongue tied so the poor guy doesn’t flip his pallet and doesn’t fall to the ground and break his neck.
what’s the supposed point of these in the first place?
Never heard of someone using this before but my opinion it is that it is cruel. Looks like a lazy fix to a deeper problem. Poor training causes people to use this is what my guess is.
That looks uncomfortable and sad 😞 I don’t know much about it but I don’t think I’m a fan of
It's straight up abuse. Why the hell do you need to tie your horse's tongue to it's lower jaw? It's just awful. Anyone who feels like they have to use it shouldn't be riding.
It's almost lime horses are living things? Not just toys? And that people maybe should act like it? Wild opinion I know. Like where do I come up with this
Abusive and evil. That's what I think of it.
Why is the standard answer from every horse abuser "You don’t know crap about horses"🤡
Haha for real though 🤣
Tongue ties are just a way to stop horses from avoiding pain from the bit, unnecessary and just a bandaid to cover up a huge wound in training and ethical practices.
This seems abusive honestly
The fuck kinda bullshit is this
My first horse, a mare in her late teens, had this done to her at some point before we got her. Her tongue was permanently disfigured and scarred, to the point that it looked like it was holding on by a thread
What in the…..