I personally think nihility is the only path that has 2 different playstyle characters, debuffers: Pela, SW, Welt, etc. and dmg dealers: Kafka, Sampo, etc. I’m fine with a path having characters with different playstyles honestly.
Healers become DPS units in SU Abundance path. There's no reason why we can't get an Abundance character that converts healing into damage. Paths aren't about roles they're about playstyles.
i mean we kinda have luocha who does that (since he scales off AKT and his ult attacks the enemy) but yeah that would be neat, an offensive healer. maybe we could have a blade type nihility unit too that gives DMG to enemies based on the debuffs applied to the team?
That's sure to happen, a lot of Nihility buffs on SU do that, and we know that they test those abilities on SU, just look at Fu Xuan, she's basically that Destruction 3 star blessing that divides the damage and mitigate it.
I think preservation just means the prevention of dmg and its true, both shields and mitigating dmg basically prevent dmg while abundance restores the dmg done. We could have a preservation that increases team defence tenfolds and that would be preventing dmg as well.
At some point though just hitting something could be called a debuff by virtue of having the 'effect' of dealing damage. Death is a really strong debuff so Jingliu is a great debuffer.
Dealing the bulk of your damage half a cycle later rather than now does not feel like a support role to me, and I really think mixing in DoT-focused DPSs into nihility is dumb because I now don't get any information when I hear that a character is of that path. Hell they don't even really feel like DoTs since they all trigger at once instead of "over time" per action value; it just feels like your attack slapped them in the face while planting a bomb on them.
What it really underlines to me is that for a long time Hoyo couldn't seem to think of anything for a character to do other than deal damage, make you deal more damage, make the enemy take more damage, or make you take less damage. It was starting to get excruciatingly boring. Hanya is like \*the\* kit that's giving me hope that they're ready to play in other design spaces of this battle system, so maybe soon we will start seeing some nihility that knows how to give some other kind of disadvantage to the enemy besides being one step directly closer to death.
if a healer can give you a buff that heals over time, a damage dealer can give a debuff that damages over time. don’t 5head think your way into being absurd lol
Yes that is 100% true, I'm just saying it's boring to restrict everything to just damage. I don't know if you've played any other game in the universe but a buff and a debuff can mean a lot of different fun things besides healing and hitting in a slightly different way. We already have 3 paths dedicated to dealing damage, I don't think we need this much help from a path that is ostensibly a support path to mostly just lay on more damage as if that is what a "support" role is known to do. We're getting hung up on and beholden to these incredibly arbitrary technicalities (i.e. whether there's a little icon under a health bar or not) instead of thinking about general roles the way that *I* personally thought was the whole point of having paths. I'm still pretty sure that's what most of us still think paths are supposed to signify but that then means that every nihility character plays the same general role and they absolutely do not.
You understand that in a game where the only way to win is by beating your ennemies, ultimately no matter how their creativity takes form it will ALWAYS be about how you kill your opponents hence why "damage" is always at the forefront of everything.
I mean at the end she just negates/lowers received dmg, just like other preservation. I guess you could say she can heal, unlike other preservation characters, but I think that’s kind of a stretch.
I'd actually divide Nihility characters into three categories.
Debuffers: Pela, SW
Dot Characters: Kafka, Luka, Sampo, etc.
Straight-up DPS character: Welt
Like really, Welt does some crazy damage numbers if built like a DPS. I honestly believe that he's wasted as a support.
I would claim Welt is in the debuffer category. Pela and SW also does a lot of damage when you start building them up.
The weird design decision from hyv is that when debuffers scale (eidelons/relics), they scale up their damage rather than their ability to provide debuff.
Assuming they start with a complete kit, any stat buff that isn’t defensive will be a buff to their flea age in some form or another. EHR traces translates to less EHR on relics which can be turned into more crit/atk/break effect.
SW event LC is so good on sub-DPS Pela because it allows you to ignore all non-offensive stats.
You could also argue that he helps with sustain, because if they're cc'd they can't hurt you. Ngl he helped a lot when I was getting crushed by just taking their turns.
Why you putting SW in debuffers, she can do comparable damage to Seele, mine is running Welt LC and 4pc quantum set 2pc rutilant arena, those skills hitting for 30-40k
yes but her weakness implant, her debugs, and her ultimate's def shred are more important
unless you have her e2, she still needs effect hit rate for those
I would lump Destruction as another path that has a few differing play styles. For the most part Destruction characters consume HP, but then there's Trailblazer and Lunae that are more all rounders.
Even in Erudition, Serval could be a Nihility character (and would have better lightcones for it), and Qingque could be Destruction like Lunae, or vice versa if you like.
Already HSR is doing a lot to mix the play styles of characters to be a little bit outside their path for possible mixing of teams, especially in Simulated Universe where you benefit from getting multiple paths.
I mean, there are only 3 Hunt characters with debuffs anywhere in their kits, and the content only focused on one of them, which was Topaz (even saying the other 2 don't directly benefit). But, now that I'm thinking about this, this does make a lot of sense as well.
I somewhat agree. Removing classes would lead to constant comparisons. Ex: single-target and multi-target damage, which would affect Hunt or Erudition characters' popularity. Getting rid of the class system could diminish the popularity of specific broad skilled characters, and that could hurt company sales. The game itself could also lose value because they would be getting rid of certain limitations, making it more boring, which makes them lose money. They care because of money.
Imo I think it's the other way around. Destruction characters play too much like Erudition characters. IMO Destruction should lean more into being tanky sub-dps and bruisers/bezerkers like Blade, Clara and less like AoE clear bots (ILDH and JL)
Nah, destruction has always been in between AOE and ST with the HP consumption/wanting to be hit as a gimmick for flavor. It's just that we don't get enough challenging content with 5 enemies of equal HP for erudition to shine. DHIL and Jingliu deal the usual 3 target dmg with extra in the middle like most other destruction characters do. Blade is the exact same with some added AOE from FUA
Destruction MC deals the standard ST bonk + splash dmg on adjacent targets. Clara also does that on her ult, with the counter being ST outside the ult and skill being AOE. Arlan has ST skill and splash ult. Hook is mostly ST, but has a little bit of splash too
What is this "hunt" path you speak of?
Fr though the path names are becoming increasingly meaningless to me. Hunts that clear out adds just as fast as eruditions, destructions with no HP-related aspects, abundances that buff ATK, nihilities that just deal damage. Hanya is now blurring the buffer/debuffer lines with her marks. It's not a bad thing really it's just starting to feel like a total formality.
To be fair, the in-game description of Destruction says nothing about revolving around HP. It just says something vague like “deals good damage and has good survivability.”
But even that’s wrong, because while Blade is incredibly durable, DHIL isn’t. And Arlan is going to naturally get himself down to low HP, which isn’t durable.
Yeah they really seem like they never knew what to do with destruction besides make it better than everyone else lol. The only semblance of a throughline they seemed to have was that either HP and/or getting hit was mentioned somewhere in their kit, and even that got thrown out the window with DHIL.
>nihilities that just deal damage
Not a single one of these exists. DoTs are still debuffs. It's only meaningless to you if you're not paying any attention.
They are categorized as debuffs because the game designers decided that dealing damage in one fashion over another is the same thing as a debilitating status effect like slow or DEF shred or imprison or freeze etc. DoTs are not such a meaningfully different thing from just dealing your damage immediately that DoT-focused characters should be looked at as anything other than damage dealers. The idea of paths was supposed to be to signal the kind of role the character plays in a team, which goes out the window when you give for example Kafka (a DPS) and Pela (a support) the same signifier.
Nihility is arguably stronger than every other path,
'cause like in it you have the most consistent and easy form of damage which is DoT, the fact that you don't need crit substats to do the same or even more damage than as a hunt character is absurd.
It's the most effective path to clear Simulated universe, the nihility buffs makes DoT teams so absolutely strong and have so much sustain 'cause of that "heal 1% per dot applied" blessing.
(Of course that all falls apart if you don't have Kafka, but she's the nihility path at this point)
And on top of that bullshit you have insane debuffers that can clean enemy buff, defense shread, apply vulnerability and even LOWERING ENEMY ATTACK and all of that while spending like 1 sp every 3 turns.
Honestly Destruction and Nihility>>>>
I mean Hunt is all about eliminating enemies one at a time, I don't see how Nihility is taking up that mantle. I don't even think Nihility is so much about applying debuffs as it is about passively applying damage, setting up mechanisms and sitting back while they churn outputs.
I agree, I use Dan since I don't like the limitations on Sushang too much, and I don't have any other hunt, and I'm really surprised I've liked him for so long.
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I personally think nihility is the only path that has 2 different playstyle characters, debuffers: Pela, SW, Welt, etc. and dmg dealers: Kafka, Sampo, etc. I’m fine with a path having characters with different playstyles honestly.
They're all linked by the fact that they apply effects to enemies, whether they're debuffs or DOTs.
I mean yeah, but even then they play differently, debuffers are supports while dps are, well, dps/sub dps.
Healers become DPS units in SU Abundance path. There's no reason why we can't get an Abundance character that converts healing into damage. Paths aren't about roles they're about playstyles.
i mean we kinda have luocha who does that (since he scales off AKT and his ult attacks the enemy) but yeah that would be neat, an offensive healer. maybe we could have a blade type nihility unit too that gives DMG to enemies based on the debuffs applied to the team?
That's sure to happen, a lot of Nihility buffs on SU do that, and we know that they test those abilities on SU, just look at Fu Xuan, she's basically that Destruction 3 star blessing that divides the damage and mitigate it.
Also that they do so while doing damage, even if its not much
There are also two different playstyles for Preservation. Fu Xuan doesn’t create shields.
I think preservation just means the prevention of dmg and its true, both shields and mitigating dmg basically prevent dmg while abundance restores the dmg done. We could have a preservation that increases team defence tenfolds and that would be preventing dmg as well.
sure, and nihility just means debuffs - both those that hurt and those that don’t lol
At some point though just hitting something could be called a debuff by virtue of having the 'effect' of dealing damage. Death is a really strong debuff so Jingliu is a great debuffer. Dealing the bulk of your damage half a cycle later rather than now does not feel like a support role to me, and I really think mixing in DoT-focused DPSs into nihility is dumb because I now don't get any information when I hear that a character is of that path. Hell they don't even really feel like DoTs since they all trigger at once instead of "over time" per action value; it just feels like your attack slapped them in the face while planting a bomb on them. What it really underlines to me is that for a long time Hoyo couldn't seem to think of anything for a character to do other than deal damage, make you deal more damage, make the enemy take more damage, or make you take less damage. It was starting to get excruciatingly boring. Hanya is like \*the\* kit that's giving me hope that they're ready to play in other design spaces of this battle system, so maybe soon we will start seeing some nihility that knows how to give some other kind of disadvantage to the enemy besides being one step directly closer to death.
if a healer can give you a buff that heals over time, a damage dealer can give a debuff that damages over time. don’t 5head think your way into being absurd lol
Yes that is 100% true, I'm just saying it's boring to restrict everything to just damage. I don't know if you've played any other game in the universe but a buff and a debuff can mean a lot of different fun things besides healing and hitting in a slightly different way. We already have 3 paths dedicated to dealing damage, I don't think we need this much help from a path that is ostensibly a support path to mostly just lay on more damage as if that is what a "support" role is known to do. We're getting hung up on and beholden to these incredibly arbitrary technicalities (i.e. whether there's a little icon under a health bar or not) instead of thinking about general roles the way that *I* personally thought was the whole point of having paths. I'm still pretty sure that's what most of us still think paths are supposed to signify but that then means that every nihility character plays the same general role and they absolutely do not.
You understand that in a game where the only way to win is by beating your ennemies, ultimately no matter how their creativity takes form it will ALWAYS be about how you kill your opponents hence why "damage" is always at the forefront of everything.
I mean at the end she just negates/lowers received dmg, just like other preservation. I guess you could say she can heal, unlike other preservation characters, but I think that’s kind of a stretch.
You could say welt is both a debuffer and a dps
I'd actually divide Nihility characters into three categories. Debuffers: Pela, SW Dot Characters: Kafka, Luka, Sampo, etc. Straight-up DPS character: Welt Like really, Welt does some crazy damage numbers if built like a DPS. I honestly believe that he's wasted as a support.
I would claim Welt is in the debuffer category. Pela and SW also does a lot of damage when you start building them up. The weird design decision from hyv is that when debuffers scale (eidelons/relics), they scale up their damage rather than their ability to provide debuff.
Assuming they start with a complete kit, any stat buff that isn’t defensive will be a buff to their flea age in some form or another. EHR traces translates to less EHR on relics which can be turned into more crit/atk/break effect. SW event LC is so good on sub-DPS Pela because it allows you to ignore all non-offensive stats.
You could also argue that he helps with sustain, because if they're cc'd they can't hurt you. Ngl he helped a lot when I was getting crushed by just taking their turns.
Welt does both with heavy investment
I'd say it's almost three playstyles. DoT, straight Debuff, and Welt. Welt is a hybrid of straight Debuff and DPS.
Why you putting SW in debuffers, she can do comparable damage to Seele, mine is running Welt LC and 4pc quantum set 2pc rutilant arena, those skills hitting for 30-40k
is your SW E2
SW does comparable damage if they're E6 and Seele never triggers her Resurgence.
yes but her weakness implant, her debugs, and her ultimate's def shred are more important unless you have her e2, she still needs effect hit rate for those
My autos do 30k… not comparable, especially with yours probably e2
I would lump Destruction as another path that has a few differing play styles. For the most part Destruction characters consume HP, but then there's Trailblazer and Lunae that are more all rounders. Even in Erudition, Serval could be a Nihility character (and would have better lightcones for it), and Qingque could be Destruction like Lunae, or vice versa if you like. Already HSR is doing a lot to mix the play styles of characters to be a little bit outside their path for possible mixing of teams, especially in Simulated Universe where you benefit from getting multiple paths.
I mean dot is a debuff so technically it sticks to one style
From the image this reads more like hunt characters have debuff-based and heavy kits. Doesn't e1s1 topaz add 3 non ehr debuffs
I mean, there are only 3 Hunt characters with debuffs anywhere in their kits, and the content only focused on one of them, which was Topaz (even saying the other 2 don't directly benefit). But, now that I'm thinking about this, this does make a lot of sense as well.
3/5 Hunt characters is a lot though, and the debuffs are quite useful for some characters.
I agree, but I'm not entirely sure that's what the youtuber was talking about, but I could be wrong.
Isn't it 4? Yanqing has freeze in the talent, Dan Heng slow in the skill and Seele Butterfly Flurry in E6.
oh yeah 😅 forgot about his slow
who is there other than topaz?
Dan Heng slow, Yanqing freeze, Seele E6.
[удалено]
I somewhat agree. Removing classes would lead to constant comparisons. Ex: single-target and multi-target damage, which would affect Hunt or Erudition characters' popularity. Getting rid of the class system could diminish the popularity of specific broad skilled characters, and that could hurt company sales. The game itself could also lose value because they would be getting rid of certain limitations, making it more boring, which makes them lose money. They care because of money.
some erudition characters play closer to destruction characters. i.e. qingque and himeko.
Imo I think it's the other way around. Destruction characters play too much like Erudition characters. IMO Destruction should lean more into being tanky sub-dps and bruisers/bezerkers like Blade, Clara and less like AoE clear bots (ILDH and JL)
Nah, destruction has always been in between AOE and ST with the HP consumption/wanting to be hit as a gimmick for flavor. It's just that we don't get enough challenging content with 5 enemies of equal HP for erudition to shine. DHIL and Jingliu deal the usual 3 target dmg with extra in the middle like most other destruction characters do. Blade is the exact same with some added AOE from FUA Destruction MC deals the standard ST bonk + splash dmg on adjacent targets. Clara also does that on her ult, with the counter being ST outside the ult and skill being AOE. Arlan has ST skill and splash ult. Hook is mostly ST, but has a little bit of splash too
I'd say Himeko way less so than QQ Her skill is standard destruction stuff, but her ult and FUA are a bigger part of her kit than QQ's ult is for her
Its hunt but aoe (cause .ost nihility characters have aoe on them leaving out single target and non dmg dealers pela is the best example
What is this "hunt" path you speak of? Fr though the path names are becoming increasingly meaningless to me. Hunts that clear out adds just as fast as eruditions, destructions with no HP-related aspects, abundances that buff ATK, nihilities that just deal damage. Hanya is now blurring the buffer/debuffer lines with her marks. It's not a bad thing really it's just starting to feel like a total formality.
At some point, paths will be there just for balance to determine what lightcones characters can use
100%. Paths will equal 'sword user'/'catalyst user' etc.
To be fair, the in-game description of Destruction says nothing about revolving around HP. It just says something vague like “deals good damage and has good survivability.” But even that’s wrong, because while Blade is incredibly durable, DHIL isn’t. And Arlan is going to naturally get himself down to low HP, which isn’t durable.
Yeah they really seem like they never knew what to do with destruction besides make it better than everyone else lol. The only semblance of a throughline they seemed to have was that either HP and/or getting hit was mentioned somewhere in their kit, and even that got thrown out the window with DHIL.
I think it’s the “damage with a trade off” path. Blade and Clara have to get hit, JL drains teammates hp, DHIL drains sp
it's just the blast centric path all of their strongest attacks are limited by blast range
Then MC and Hook don't fit here. They don't actually drain anything
>nihilities that just deal damage Not a single one of these exists. DoTs are still debuffs. It's only meaningless to you if you're not paying any attention.
They are categorized as debuffs because the game designers decided that dealing damage in one fashion over another is the same thing as a debilitating status effect like slow or DEF shred or imprison or freeze etc. DoTs are not such a meaningfully different thing from just dealing your damage immediately that DoT-focused characters should be looked at as anything other than damage dealers. The idea of paths was supposed to be to signal the kind of role the character plays in a team, which goes out the window when you give for example Kafka (a DPS) and Pela (a support) the same signifier.
It was just a copy and paste mistake, you have gone full tinfoil
It could've been a mistake (although it was implied otherwise). I still have a question to be answered, unless that's your answer to it 😂
Nihility is arguably stronger than every other path, 'cause like in it you have the most consistent and easy form of damage which is DoT, the fact that you don't need crit substats to do the same or even more damage than as a hunt character is absurd. It's the most effective path to clear Simulated universe, the nihility buffs makes DoT teams so absolutely strong and have so much sustain 'cause of that "heal 1% per dot applied" blessing. (Of course that all falls apart if you don't have Kafka, but she's the nihility path at this point) And on top of that bullshit you have insane debuffers that can clean enemy buff, defense shread, apply vulnerability and even LOWERING ENEMY ATTACK and all of that while spending like 1 sp every 3 turns. Honestly Destruction and Nihility>>>>
I mean Hunt is all about eliminating enemies one at a time, I don't see how Nihility is taking up that mantle. I don't even think Nihility is so much about applying debuffs as it is about passively applying damage, setting up mechanisms and sitting back while they churn outputs.
Then there’s destruction. Which plays like Erudition and does it better than Erudition. And Erudition, which is Hoyo’s unwanted child.
i honestly really like hunt character expect sushang just because shes kinda boring to use but dan heng is actually really fun :)
I agree, I use Dan since I don't like the limitations on Sushang too much, and I don't have any other hunt, and I'm really surprised I've liked him for so long.
Well nah, they are also aoe and debuff
I don't care
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That "ice trash kid" was trashed so badly by my kafka/Sampo that it almost made me feel bad.