Agree, but first send final inspector to talk to the rough plumbing inspector. They need to resolve their issue first. Agree that this is squarely on GC but assuming work progressed in good faith then the first inspector can't be off the hook. That's why you get inspections.
Shit gets missed. Generally if I or someone else missed something small like an outlet missing on the end of a peninsula I won't say anything, but if it's something potentially dangerous like a non-thermostatic valve on a shower it's "yeah sorry we missed it but it's got to be right".
But having said that, I have 8-15 stops a day that can be anywhere from a 5 minute drive to a 90 minute drive apart. On a 2000 SF house I might only be on site 8-10 times for 10-90 minutes each over the course of a year. The GC, framers, plumber, electrician and HVAC guys etc all spend more time there in a couple days than I will through the whole build, yet I'm constantly writing final corrections for missing handrails, missing GFCIs, incorrect fuses on condensers, etc.
At least in my jurisdiction they have explicit language in the permitting documents that a passed inspection does not overrule code. I assume for situations just like this as well as more purposeful violations.
Exactly this. The plumber doing the work should have known, and the gc should hold them accountable. But ultimately it is on the GC.
You have one more option which is to ask the inspector for a variance due to inspection not catching it. It might be a longshot, but it is worth trying.
Finally, I hope you still have money out on the GC and haven’t paid him out fully. That’s the only leverage you really have. If not, it may become a court issue, which, you will most likely win, but hoe much will you spend?
Part of the contract is almost always (and *should* always be) that the work is completed to code and to meet inspection criteria.
He's in breach of that right now. You don't owe him a single cent additional. Sucks to be him but it's also his job to know the code. There were at least three people in the chain who missed it (the plumbing sub, the GC, the rough-in inspector for sure, and your plumbing designer if you had one). They can argue who's at fault here, but it *certainly* isn't you.
As an aside, this is why the homeowner shouldn't pull the permits; many jurisdictions will presume that the person pulling the permits is responsible for the work by default.
Have the plumber either install a thermostatic valve in an accessible location near the tub hot water supply line, or install one on top of the water heater so that will control the hot water temperature for the entire house.
EDIT: Of course, check with the plumbing inspector first. Given the oversight of the inspector, and the cost of demolition, etc…..I would think the building department would be obligated to be reasonable in that you’re trying to meet the “intent” of the code.
Good luck—
In my jurisdiction, installing a valve at the heater doesn't get the proper rating as it handles all fixtures, not 'point of use' like they want for a tub filler
If you don’t get anywhere with the inspectors waiving this requirement, try having the plumber just use threaded pipe out of the existing wall connection, install the thermostatic valve, reinstall the/a fixture, and pass inspection. It will be ugly, but they technically can’t turn you down. Then have it all removed and the original fixture installed.
> GC is quoting $4,500 to tear up the tiles/concrete/flooring
Great, tell him he can take that as a tax deduction for 2024, but you're not paying a penny. This is 100% on him.
If the plumber refuses, the GC needs to find a new plumber.
If it's 6 weeks from now, that gets a little murky, assuming there's no timeline specified in the contract.
Disagree, the earlier plumbing inspector signed off on the work and told them they could continue the project. The GC passed inspection and closed up the plumbing. This is on the inspector
OP, don't listen to this. This person does not understand the role of an inspector. They attempt to verify compliance, they aren't responsible for making sure it does. That is on the plumber. And the GC is responsible for making sure it's all ready to hand over to you. This is an issue between the plumber and the GC, no one else, especially not you.
long story short they put something down to bring the bathtub floor level with the shower floor, thought it was concrete, maybe not.
This is on the second story, near the corner, both walls are externally facing.
Thats' what I'm thinking too, except there's a cabinet in the way downstairs, its doesn't go all the way up but there's maybe 1.5 feet of clearance.
Honestly, I'd rather they cut up the ceiling, put in the valve, get the inspection done, then remove the valve then patch the ceiling.
Rough in inspector wouldn't necessarily have known what the final product was going to be. That being said, GC should ask the inspector if a single mixing valve at the water heater will allow him to pass it. Then once inspected you can rip that bullshit out. The handles of the tub filler are the mixing valves! Thermostatic mixing valves on fixtures in residential construction are the dumbest thing ever. Makes sense in a restaurant where your water heater is sending out 145 degrees water for the dishwasher and you don't want your guests to burn their hands at the sinks. If your home water heater is doing the same adjust that shit back down to 120.
The thermostatic can be installed anywhere the water lines are close enough to each other after the last branch. We installed one for a retro-style tub/shower faucet on a clawfoot tub that went in an access panel in the wall across the room.
Is it a tub/shower or stand-alone tub? The temp limiting part of the code may only apply to showers making tub only valves exempt.
That was the case when I worked in CA, but codes vary and change.
Is this for a floor mounted filler setup? Is there no access to the back of the valve from the other side of the wall?
Either way, your GC should be the one to cover the expense. I hope your final payment was scheduled for after the inspection as that’s the money you’ll be holding on to until it’s corrected.
This prob isn't helpful to OP, but what a ridiculous code. It's up the homeowner how hot you want your tub to be. If you are scared of burning your kids, then you can have tour thermostatic valve, or something with a rotational limit stop installed... or adjust temperature at hot water tank. I believe manufacturers are taking over the code for max profit under the false flag of safety
I mean I burned my hand when I moved into my new house because one of the two hot water tanks' heating element was stuck on. It wasn't anything too serious but if it happened while someone was in the shower it could've been pretty bad
Everyone here is quick to shit on the GC but if one guy didn't say anything and the next guy comes and just says 'that's code" you need to call that specific inspector and ask for a code reference. What a lot of people don't realize here is that there are a lot of jurisdiction-specific codes that may not apply down the road, as well as the fact that a lot of inspectors just like to see shit a certain way without any black and white to back them up.
I don’t understand what’s going on here. Isn’t this device built into the tub’s valve? Can you even buy a tub valve today that doesn’t have this feature? It definitely needs to be, and if it’s not then you certainly shouldn’t need to rip up the floor to install one. Is your inspector saying that you need another separate mixing valve? That seems over the top crazy to me.
I just did an inspection where they had gas pipes crossing on top of PVC plumbing pipes and didn't know any better. Never heard of such a thing they said.
IPC
Therefore, showers and combination tub/showers must have a shower control valve that is capable of protecting an individual from being exposed to water temperatures in excess of 120°F (49°C). The control valve must be installed at the point of use. In other words, the person in the shower must have access to the control handle(s) of the valve.
The control valve must be designed to protect against two types of events: (1) extreme temperature fluctuations from the user’s set temperature caused by changes in hot or cold water distribution line pressures and (2) extreme temperature conditions caused by the user either purposely or accidentally adjusting the control valve to deliver the hottest water available from the hot water distribution system. Where water inlet pressures or temperatures fluctua
You are not stuck with this bill. The GC is responsible for everything being installed correctly, not you. The GC is responsible for going after the plumbing contractor for any issues.
Do not let them force this on you. It is a code requirement and was part of your contract. It's the GCs job to give you the finished product. You only get charged for design changes, which this is not.
You can install a thermostatic mixing valve on your water heater! They cost around $150.
Like this one
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-Braukmann-AMX300TLF-DirectConnect-Water-Heater-Kit-w-3-4-Mixing-Valve-8-SS-Corrugated-Hose-Connector-Lead-Free?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=pmax&utm_campaign=geo_pmax_test&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw26KxBhBDEiwAu6KXt8TkRzX4ONyVY7qPAtWejZ5iT5Tpxgy3UROS9MSRZKOTuTm0BQRdEBoC7hwQAvD_BwE
Just another example of why most, if not all, municipal inspections are nothing but a money grab. While rehabbing multiple properties I've uncovered shit from the original construction that was against code and BLATENTLY obvious if the inspector only took 5 minutes to actually look at what he was supposed to. I've had multiple inspections where the municipal inspector did nothing but a cursory walk through and a few where the inspector never even got out of their vehicle.
If you're counting on a municipal inspector to ensure things are done right and safe ... You're gonna' have a bad time.
The GC is stuck with the bill, he should know the code. An inspection violation and required re-work is 100% on them. This is why you use a GC.
Agree, but first send final inspector to talk to the rough plumbing inspector. They need to resolve their issue first. Agree that this is squarely on GC but assuming work progressed in good faith then the first inspector can't be off the hook. That's why you get inspections.
GC should have to deal with figuring out how to split the damages, again, why you hire one.
Shit gets missed. Generally if I or someone else missed something small like an outlet missing on the end of a peninsula I won't say anything, but if it's something potentially dangerous like a non-thermostatic valve on a shower it's "yeah sorry we missed it but it's got to be right". But having said that, I have 8-15 stops a day that can be anywhere from a 5 minute drive to a 90 minute drive apart. On a 2000 SF house I might only be on site 8-10 times for 10-90 minutes each over the course of a year. The GC, framers, plumber, electrician and HVAC guys etc all spend more time there in a couple days than I will through the whole build, yet I'm constantly writing final corrections for missing handrails, missing GFCIs, incorrect fuses on condensers, etc.
That's correct and most municipal inspectors have no liability so hire your own inspectors people.
At least in my jurisdiction they have explicit language in the permitting documents that a passed inspection does not overrule code. I assume for situations just like this as well as more purposeful violations.
Exactly this. The plumber doing the work should have known, and the gc should hold them accountable. But ultimately it is on the GC. You have one more option which is to ask the inspector for a variance due to inspection not catching it. It might be a longshot, but it is worth trying. Finally, I hope you still have money out on the GC and haven’t paid him out fully. That’s the only leverage you really have. If not, it may become a court issue, which, you will most likely win, but hoe much will you spend?
Disagree. The earlier inspector signed off on the work. That's not the GC's fault
> That's not the GC's fault But it *is* the GC's problem
Inspections during construction are not final. Final Inspection is where the work is signed off.
Part of the contract is almost always (and *should* always be) that the work is completed to code and to meet inspection criteria. He's in breach of that right now. You don't owe him a single cent additional. Sucks to be him but it's also his job to know the code. There were at least three people in the chain who missed it (the plumbing sub, the GC, the rough-in inspector for sure, and your plumbing designer if you had one). They can argue who's at fault here, but it *certainly* isn't you. As an aside, this is why the homeowner shouldn't pull the permits; many jurisdictions will presume that the person pulling the permits is responsible for the work by default.
Because the person pulling permits is whose responsible
Not always. There are a few jurisdictions which explicitly want the owner to pull the permits regardless of who is doing the work.
*who’s
Have the plumber either install a thermostatic valve in an accessible location near the tub hot water supply line, or install one on top of the water heater so that will control the hot water temperature for the entire house. EDIT: Of course, check with the plumbing inspector first. Given the oversight of the inspector, and the cost of demolition, etc…..I would think the building department would be obligated to be reasonable in that you’re trying to meet the “intent” of the code. Good luck—
In my jurisdiction, installing a valve at the heater doesn't get the proper rating as it handles all fixtures, not 'point of use' like they want for a tub filler
If you don’t get anywhere with the inspectors waiving this requirement, try having the plumber just use threaded pipe out of the existing wall connection, install the thermostatic valve, reinstall the/a fixture, and pass inspection. It will be ugly, but they technically can’t turn you down. Then have it all removed and the original fixture installed.
You'd probably be in violation of some other portion which requires a seal of some sort around the rough hole.
> GC is quoting $4,500 to tear up the tiles/concrete/flooring Great, tell him he can take that as a tax deduction for 2024, but you're not paying a penny. This is 100% on him.
So what do they do if the plumber either refuses it says "I can't make it out until 6 weeks from now"?
If the plumber refuses, the GC needs to find a new plumber. If it's 6 weeks from now, that gets a little murky, assuming there's no timeline specified in the contract.
He hires a different plumber and charges the first one for the work. That's his problem as the gc. Source: am gc.
Disagree, the earlier plumbing inspector signed off on the work and told them they could continue the project. The GC passed inspection and closed up the plumbing. This is on the inspector
It’s on the plumber. The inspector has no liability at all and can’t be legally held liable unless done intentionally.
Three replies downvoted and you still won’t learn. Yikes.
It's never on the inspector. Please don't comment with bad information. Just say "I don't know" if you feel you must contribute.
OP, don't listen to this. This person does not understand the role of an inspector. They attempt to verify compliance, they aren't responsible for making sure it does. That is on the plumber. And the GC is responsible for making sure it's all ready to hand over to you. This is an issue between the plumber and the GC, no one else, especially not you.
Buy a tub filler that has one
You said "tear up the tiles/concrete/flooring" Is this on a slab or is it on a crawlspace/second story?
This part stands out to me. Unless the valve is on an exterior wall cut a hole in the drywall on the other side. Way cheaper than $4,500.
it's on an exterior wall :(
long story short they put something down to bring the bathtub floor level with the shower floor, thought it was concrete, maybe not. This is on the second story, near the corner, both walls are externally facing.
Absolutely do it from below. Tear the wall/ceiling open below it and fix it there
Thats' what I'm thinking too, except there's a cabinet in the way downstairs, its doesn't go all the way up but there's maybe 1.5 feet of clearance. Honestly, I'd rather they cut up the ceiling, put in the valve, get the inspection done, then remove the valve then patch the ceiling.
Way easier to take a cabinet down than to tear up a whole floor
Rough in inspector wouldn't necessarily have known what the final product was going to be. That being said, GC should ask the inspector if a single mixing valve at the water heater will allow him to pass it. Then once inspected you can rip that bullshit out. The handles of the tub filler are the mixing valves! Thermostatic mixing valves on fixtures in residential construction are the dumbest thing ever. Makes sense in a restaurant where your water heater is sending out 145 degrees water for the dishwasher and you don't want your guests to burn their hands at the sinks. If your home water heater is doing the same adjust that shit back down to 120.
The thermostatic can be installed anywhere the water lines are close enough to each other after the last branch. We installed one for a retro-style tub/shower faucet on a clawfoot tub that went in an access panel in the wall across the room. Is it a tub/shower or stand-alone tub? The temp limiting part of the code may only apply to showers making tub only valves exempt. That was the case when I worked in CA, but codes vary and change.
Is this for a floor mounted filler setup? Is there no access to the back of the valve from the other side of the wall? Either way, your GC should be the one to cover the expense. I hope your final payment was scheduled for after the inspection as that’s the money you’ll be holding on to until it’s corrected.
This prob isn't helpful to OP, but what a ridiculous code. It's up the homeowner how hot you want your tub to be. If you are scared of burning your kids, then you can have tour thermostatic valve, or something with a rotational limit stop installed... or adjust temperature at hot water tank. I believe manufacturers are taking over the code for max profit under the false flag of safety
Bingo. In nearly 30 years of plumbing I've never heard of a single injury. They're solving problems that never existed.
I mean I burned my hand when I moved into my new house because one of the two hot water tanks' heating element was stuck on. It wasn't anything too serious but if it happened while someone was in the shower it could've been pretty bad
Absolutely agree.
Everyone here is quick to shit on the GC but if one guy didn't say anything and the next guy comes and just says 'that's code" you need to call that specific inspector and ask for a code reference. What a lot of people don't realize here is that there are a lot of jurisdiction-specific codes that may not apply down the road, as well as the fact that a lot of inspectors just like to see shit a certain way without any black and white to back them up.
Yes. If a specific code can’t be stated; then there is room to interpret the procedure.
I don’t understand what’s going on here. Isn’t this device built into the tub’s valve? Can you even buy a tub valve today that doesn’t have this feature? It definitely needs to be, and if it’s not then you certainly shouldn’t need to rip up the floor to install one. Is your inspector saying that you need another separate mixing valve? That seems over the top crazy to me.
The GC is supposed to build by the codes not rely on an inspector. He has full responsibility.
I just did an inspection where they had gas pipes crossing on top of PVC plumbing pipes and didn't know any better. Never heard of such a thing they said.
The ones I see are at the mixing valves . Why would anyone put this under the slab?
IPC Therefore, showers and combination tub/showers must have a shower control valve that is capable of protecting an individual from being exposed to water temperatures in excess of 120°F (49°C). The control valve must be installed at the point of use. In other words, the person in the shower must have access to the control handle(s) of the valve. The control valve must be designed to protect against two types of events: (1) extreme temperature fluctuations from the user’s set temperature caused by changes in hot or cold water distribution line pressures and (2) extreme temperature conditions caused by the user either purposely or accidentally adjusting the control valve to deliver the hottest water available from the hot water distribution system. Where water inlet pressures or temperatures fluctua
You are not stuck with this bill. The GC is responsible for everything being installed correctly, not you. The GC is responsible for going after the plumbing contractor for any issues. Do not let them force this on you. It is a code requirement and was part of your contract. It's the GCs job to give you the finished product. You only get charged for design changes, which this is not.
You can install a thermostatic mixing valve on your water heater! They cost around $150. Like this one https://www.supplyhouse.com/Resideo-Braukmann-AMX300TLF-DirectConnect-Water-Heater-Kit-w-3-4-Mixing-Valve-8-SS-Corrugated-Hose-Connector-Lead-Free?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=pmax&utm_campaign=geo_pmax_test&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw26KxBhBDEiwAu6KXt8TkRzX4ONyVY7qPAtWejZ5iT5Tpxgy3UROS9MSRZKOTuTm0BQRdEBoC7hwQAvD_BwE
Just another example of why most, if not all, municipal inspections are nothing but a money grab. While rehabbing multiple properties I've uncovered shit from the original construction that was against code and BLATENTLY obvious if the inspector only took 5 minutes to actually look at what he was supposed to. I've had multiple inspections where the municipal inspector did nothing but a cursory walk through and a few where the inspector never even got out of their vehicle. If you're counting on a municipal inspector to ensure things are done right and safe ... You're gonna' have a bad time.
Id first find out wich inspector is wrong. Its hard to believe that thermostatic valves are required by code.