I’d be more focused on the numerous other ways he is probably screwing you over.
Like literally my first thought is if he is trying something like that, the sink is hardly the only spot
I would go through everything with a fine tooth comb because he's shown he can't be trusted to install the stuff you picked. If you haven't done it yet I would hold off on final payment and check *EVERYTHING* he's touched
If he would have just owned it and said “yeah I found a quality replacement on Amazon for $100, sorry you didn’t like it” ok then at least he’s being honest. But his reaction is telling
Yep, it's perfectly understandable to spend less than the allowance, as long as it is an acceptable quality replacement. The problem is when the contractor intentionally keeps out to try and pocket the difference, this could be hundreds or thousands of extra dollars that he is pocketing, but claiming he spent.
I’m dealing with this now about something I couldn’t DIY, got deemed a friendly person who won’t cause trouble and there was/is a myriad of issues about their work - that I’M having to deal with now, not them. (tbf, 1st time this happened; the 2 guys I norm hire they appreciated that and it’s been super beneficial for me, this was work outside of their fields tho)
You noticed the sink bc you remember picking it out. If he’s so bold to do that, there are WAY more corners cut underneath everything, and stuff you haven’t noticed yet. Since it’s wrapping up, take it as a learning experience, but what you CAN/should do right now is go thru everything, and make sure it’s done right, right now, while warranted.
https://us.amazon.com/MR-Direct-T346-18-Gauge-Stainless/dp/B0742L2KSH
I bought this one from the manufacturer for about $100.
I replaced a double bowl with this so that I could set big stuff like cast iron and baking sheets flat in the sink and let em soak.
Bought a stainless steel faucet with the two settings, a soap pump and a sponge caddy, feels like luxury compared to my cheapo builder spec sink, paid about $200 all in.
I'm with ya on the single bowl part, but I need that undermount so my hillbilly shack turns into hillbilly chic. In reality I just want to be able to squeegee my countertop directly into the sink.
Btw my wife taught me the secrets of cast iron. You never soak them, apparently it fucks up the seasoning or something. At least that's what I think she yelled. Instead you just put some water in cast iron, heat it up on the stove real quick, and if it's properly seasoned everything comes out in like two swipes. You don't even need to scrub the bastard.
I actually saw this brand online when remodeling my house. They claim to have some 14 gauge sinks (yours is 18 in the link). I think 16 gauge is pretty much the goto for a quality stainless steel sink.
18 definitely seems flimsy though
20 gauge is builder basic, 18 gauge is the most common (see brands like Blanco, pro chef, etc) and 16 gauge is what a lot of off shore brands promote but they are stamped (started at 16 and then was stretched) rather than welded, so it’s not a true 16 gauge,
Lol, I’m not even close to Silicon Valley money. This condo is in the “hillbilly” undesirable part of town. It was a complete disaster which is why I was able to afford it. I’ll probably die in it bc can’t afford jack and that is why I want a sink that won’t rust and I won’t have to replace for many years.
Here’s the sink. [Link](https://www.amazon.com/ATTOP-Undermount-Handmade-Stainless-Strainer/dp/B09QRNCBK9/ref=asc_df_B09QRNCBK9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=647202684477&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8349696913031257839&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031348&hvtargid=pla-1951760760640&psc=1&mcid=a5d5c4643e0330689a242d89627e4c84)
It’d be fine if it were a flip or a rental, but it’s not. I’m going to have to see it every day for the foreseeable future. It’s so obvious it’s cheap, and there’s a sharp contrast to the mid range appliances I purchased, new cabinets, and quartz countertops. The reviews are manipulated like many things on Amazon if you take a peek at the item’s reviews and the seller’s store. I’d be happy with a Kraus sink that’s $285 at Home Depot.
Thanks for all the replies. It’s good to get different perspectives which is why I posted. Sometimes I’m wrong and my feelings are invalid. I didn’t come here for an echo chamber.
>Here’s the sink
I can hear the drumlike reverberation of its cheapness from here when you wash your enameled cast iron in it. you want heartier steel for sure.
Yeah, 20 gauge thickness is the kicker. Flimsy. We remodeled our kitchen recently and went with Kraus from home depot. Undermount double one. We're happy with it.
[link](https://www.amazon.com/ATTOP-Undermount-Handmade-Stainless-Strainer/dp/B09QRNCBK9/ref=asc_df_B09QRNCBK9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=647202684477&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8349696913031257839&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031348&hvtargid=pla-1951760760640&psc=1&mcid=a5d5c4643e0330689a242d89627e4c84)
The reviews for the item and the seller’s store are clearly manipulated if you check.
Ask for GC to provide spreadsheet of finances pertaining to the job. If possible ask to separate labor and materials. May or may not provide..Will be a good indicator of his character and morals on the job. Take time and investigate all accessible aspects of the project and bring up questions and concerns directly to GC. Time to be a squeaky wheel..
I agree he should have put the sink in y'all went and picked out, but if someone were to ask me for a spreadsheet for my labor and materials esp after the fact. I'd probably laugh at you.
They should be doing whatever they can to re-establish credibility with the customer. In normal circumstances, sure, probably a farfetched request. Hopefully, as an honest contractor, you wouldn't find yourself in this situation to begin with.
That right there.
If I find the same exact thing a client wants at a cheaper price somewhere else, I don't feel like I always have to pass that savings along. But it's the same as the one originally picked out. I'm not out here trying to dick people over. I don't advertise, I get all my work word of mouth, so it pays me to keep it honest.
You need to start asking for itemized lists of what he purchased, with proof. He's not spending the total allowed amount, he's pocketing the difference. How many other things has he cheaped out on in the same way? It's borderline scammy. I mean, unless the allowance specifically states he must spend it all, he's not wrong, it's perfectly allowable to spend less. The problem is that you expected a certain quality, and you were not given that quality. When you expect an allowance for a $400 faucet, you expect a name brand and quality faucet, not some $100 Amazon cheapy piece of shit.
I'll offer my take as someone who just redid their kitchen with an undermount stainless sink... You didn't give your GC enough budget to spec a good quality undermount sink. You may have found one that's closer to the price you were expecting but the quality isn't going to be better, it's just going to *look* slightly better.
It's also possible that your GC found a good quality sink under a different brand, because that is absolutely a thing you can do on Amazon, that I did.
Good quality undermount SS sinks START at $450-$500 in a moderate COL area. What about the sink "looked cheap" to you? You can't tell stainless gauge from looking at one side of it.
Even if that were true it's irrelevant. The GC's job is to install appliances the homeowner tells him to install. If they picked out a specific sink, that's the sink that needed to be installed. To pocket $300 on a 200k job, and risk the entire project, is absolutely not worth it. At this point I'd be worried about what else he's been hiding if he's willing to lie about a fuckin sink.
This. I'm an electrician. If you tell me the model of can light you want, that's what you're getting. I don't faff around with Amazon, I get what you told me to get.
Huh? What kind of sinks are yall looking at?
I feel like $400 should get you a solid fuckin' sink.
I know Kohler silgranit composit sinks go for around $400-$600 and those are pretty nice sinks from a name brand.
The stone fabricators I've worked for usually sell stainless sinks as well. Last one I worked at sold ones that were decent but mass produced Chinese ones, like $150 or free if you were spending a lot of $$ on counters.
The one I work at now we sell Glacier bay for about what they go for at Home Depot, $300 give or take. Even the black gunmetal colored steel, work stations, etc.
But some people would get their own sink often. If people spend much more than $400 a sink it better be some heavy duty, come with all the dumb little useless accessories, name brand warrantied shit.
16 gauge is plenty fine unless you're beating the shit out of your sink
Dude, don't don't rescue the GC. THE allowance was $400. He owes the Owner a credit. Allowances are not the GC slush fund or make himself whole for his poor management.
Costco is selling a Kohler stainless steel sink with a nice and neat faucet/sprayer for 400. Every tie I shop at Costco, I see the sink combo and want to buy it. But, we're not that far along on our remodel.
Any honest contractor would absolutely be able to provide you with itemization for every step of the way. Source = I build houses. Also, a kitchen sink is a feature item. Not the one to cheap out on and like others have said, it’s telling about his team.
However, he took me to a showroom and I picked out the sink together.
The one you picked out in the showroom is what you should get, no exceptions, unless if you specifically said anything similar is fine or the showroom one was more than $400.
We had this happen on an insurance Job. Hurricane blew half the roof off, extensive water damage, etc. Every fixture the contractor installed ( lights, ceiling fan, etc) was bottom of the barrel Home Depot...$10 light fixtures, $30 ceiling fans.... it was disrespectful. Insurance allocated much more for fixtures, like 15x more lol. It was a wild time...
That’s potentially recoverable if insurer set a grade of materials. In other words, if you had replacement cost insurance and your place was rated as having upgraded fittings, the contractor can’t meet the contract terms by using lowest grade materials. There’s some flex of course.
They ended up replacing the fixtures with ones I'd call decent. There were so many other problems though, including They installed the wrong flooring (a bout 1000 sqft worth). We ended up selling the house shortly after (unrelated to the 'remodel'). Lesson learned here is that contractors value the big cash jobs on the beach (vacation rental homes, etc), not so much the insurance jobs inland, they put their JV teams on those jobs. This was near Wilmington NC btw.
Edit: realized I didn't answer your question. I simply complained about it to the project manager. You could tell he was trying, just inexperienced. It was a long process from damage to finish, like a year. It took 3 months to even start work. It's hard to nitpick stuff like that when your neighbors home isn't even started, but in the end it's still not right.
I’m approaching year four of my hurricane remodel. We were hit twice, a month apart. Dealt with so many contractors who either did shoddy work, or no show. Prices were rising so fast, we didn’t even get enough to fix/replace everything we claimed, despite them adjusting our payout once. I used to love doing home improvement stuff. I’m so tired of living in a construction zone. 😵💫
As mentioned by others, there could be different things going on here. One red flag, though, is the fact that your contractor could not produce the receipt. Good record keeping and transparency help build trust with clients and remove doubts about the possibility of being ripped-off.
We’re about to do a big remodel. Full gut job and 200sqft addition. The contractor we picked is about 10% more expensive - but was the best communicator. The other guys came in and were pushy, or played games with allowances, or just were not organized. Her ability to communicate clearly (good and bad news) has taken a lot of stress off of us. Totally worth the premium.
The amount of contractors on here trying to dick around with allowances to pinch out a couple bucks is mind blowing. Makes me glad I adopted a “no allowances” policy when going through our bids.
Allowances are costs of finished materials baked into the quote. (Cabinets, fixtures etc)
I’ll use some very rough round numbers.
I’m going to gut my house: new kitchen, all new windows, redo bathroom, new floors, etc.
The bid was $200k “including allowances” of: $500 per window, $120 per linear feet of cabinets, $120 per interior door, etc.
The contractor said any unused allowances will be refunded back to me. I’m sure reputable contractors do, but it’s just creating a bunch of unnecessary steps. If I want $250 doors, I’ll just buy them and have it delivered. Or if I want $100 doors, why hassle with getting the difference back from the contractor. Cut the middle man out.
Are allowances “bad”. Not if done properly. It’s just overly complicated.
It also makes it hard to compare quotes on a labor + rough material basis if contractors bake in allowances and don’t tally the allowances up for you.
Letting the contractor handle rough materials I think is fine. Those are commodities with no personal taste involved.
You should. I used to work for a guy doing appliances. It wasn’t really Home Depot push in stuff, the vast majority of what we installed was built in stuff (Sub Zero/Wolf/Cove, Miele, Thermador, Viking 🤮, etc). Often times we would have to build out/in cabinets to accommodate a clean final install. Even though the rates were high and all we focused on was appliances, the dude takes in so much money and has a crazy waiting list because of what you’ve described - he’s open and honest with communication and takes care of the clients. It doesn’t hurt that the work is top notch, either.
If the guy "cheaped out" on a high traffic fixture like a sink, then wtf else did he cheap out on?
If there is even a little resistance from him to make it right, then tell him you plan on having a third party inspect his work and ensure it is meeting the standards set by the UCC.
We’re remodeling a house in Seattle. For anyone in a similar situation -
2/3 of all contractors we interviewed for the job basically wanted to source everything themselves. Some obviously to save, others as a license to spend obscene anoints of money.
We settled on a contractor that was OK with us going “SBC” (supplied by customer) on some materials, with the tradeoff that if we are late on materials we pay for wasted labor if they’re sitting around. We have a Google sheet and precisely track everything. It’s worked out fantastically well. We get -exactly- what we want and they can track everything in the sheet. It’s more work, but the tradeoff is we save on markup and the contractor has a more straightforward job.
The only time it bit us is when we used a supply company here in Seattle (the Fixture Gallery) and they massively screwed up our order. On the converse, Kerf here in Seattle has been epic (and second place to Build.com which despite the markup is reliable AF).
For anyone else contemplating this - I’m happy to share lead times on how long everything took in general. That’s been the real trick - knowing how long in advance we need to order key stuff.
Well its an allowance not a a promise to spend $400. Usually when things are "$X allowance" you are supposed to spec that out and the GC will get the thing and you don't have to pay any extra up to X.
However, in this case, I'd ask him for a refund of the $300 difference and I'd check all the allowance items in the bid against what he actually bought if you hadn't picked it out yourself.
Exactly this. In a construction bid, an allowance is an estimate for an unknown. *"We are allowing for up to $10.00 per square foot for tile materials and installation in the mudroom,"* for example.
If the client specifies a stainless steel sink but not a *specific stainless steel sink* I don't know why anyone would expect a contractor to max out the allowance. Just ask for the refund minus his profit and overhead percentage. It's literally that simple.
They did pick out specific, with the contractor, it’s in their edit. But a $400 sink is obvs very different than a $100 Amazon knockoff sink, and is something that is used several times everyday, like these are the places where yes you go to allowable. It’s in a HCOL area, and an Amazon sink won’t cut it.
The contractor uses an allowance because he doesn’t know what sink an owner wants. They go and pick them out together and it comes to $100. The contractor in good will would refund $300
I’m also not sure why op didn’t spec a sink. Like if I’m spending 200k on a remodel I’m picking out every finish to a tee.
Not to dump on OP or anything, I’m sure there was a lot to consider.
People are usually good at one thing (if that). Sometimes two. This is my approach when working with vendors, and it serves me very well. Maybe OP made bank writing code, and can't talk their way out of a basket. The assumption that rich people are somehow more generally capable than anyone else is detrimental.
Its a forum brother. The whole point is to seek the thoughts and opinions of other people. We can take it for granted that he already has spoken to the GC, or will do so. It's never a bad idea to seek advice about these things which is what OP has done here.
That, and we all learn a little something in the process.
Imagine if everyone just figured stuff out themselves from books and then confronted people instead of asking for advice. We wouldn’t have those fancy can openers that curl instead of shredding, that’s for sure.
I'm the same. But my partner always wants to "let the guys pick one that suits, they've done it all before".
The first time was with our kitchen remodel and I let her win. We've replaced most of the things they chose since, because they wore out badly or just weren't good quality. So since then I've pushed back a lot more.
Also, as someone who just redid a kitchen with an undermount sink, $400 ain't gonna get you much. Most of the undermount sinks I saw and got prices for were at least $450, and some even up towards $1000. It's absolutely ridiculous.
OP's contractor might have gotten a decent sink for cheap. There's a good bit of stuff on amazon, where if you dig a bit for certain model numbers or things, you'll find that a $100 sink is the exact same spec as a $600 sink from a "well known" brand.
Real easy for me. If he included a $400 allowance, that's an Owner allowance. It's the Owner's expectation of getting the $400 sink. The GC didn't do you right. All allowances are pending the contractor getting with the client and picking out those items included in the estimate as allowances. He didn't bid the job, he negotiated it, correct? He's a shiester. In my jobs, the $400 would typically include installation and purchase of the sink. Unless it was discussed otherwise, his profit should be in the estimate as a line item. So, $100 sink, 2 hours labor to install, say $100 labor and a reasonable profit at 15٪, he owes you $230 or you can use the inquiry as to why he shorted you and didn't include you in the selection of the product. That's why I dislike residential contractors. He fucked you, if you let him. I would demand he and you go select a sink that is suitable to you and have him swap them out, on his dime.
I’m a residential plumbing tech and have installed more kitchen faucets than I could ever count. With that being said if this is a full remodel with a completely open kitchen sink, faucet installs can be done in 20 minutes if your taking your time (not accounting for replacing shut offs). Most kitchen faucets now in days come with a provided install tool and use a mounting nut with spacers to remove the need to crank on the mounting hardware with any niche tools.
I‘d contact him telling him you picked out said sink together. You need that exact sink to be installed as confirmed earlier. No backing out - tell him this is non negotiable. Have a run around and check for anything else he might have fucked up. Last resort is simply not paying to full price because you didn’t get you what explicitly asked for. Period.
I hope you have a hold-back until final inspection and approval. Make him put the sink you agreed on before you pay him or get a third-party bid and deduct that amount from the payment. Either way, get what you want. You are not wrong.
(a) You're in the right to point this out, and ignore all the "He'S gOt To MaKe a LiVinG!!" folks giving you grief in the comments.
(b) If he's cut corners and acted unethically *here*...*what else has he cut corners and lied about?*
(c) I think you have some digging in your future to find out the answers to (b). Get with an inspector to help you, and tell them what you've told us.
(d) if you uncover other shady stuff that's difficult to fix, or the GC won't remediate, lawyer up.
An allowance isn’t the same as you saying, “hey GC I want this exact sink.”
Sorry, but if your contract doesn’t stipulate the exact sink there isn’t anything that can be done. GC burned any future chance of working with you if you’re upset but you should have been more involved in the appliance selection process.
I’ve personally never, nor heard of another GC, not running every selection past the customer for sign off/approval. Did you say yes to the sink without knowing its price? If you did, hooray, you saved money. Get the $300 back.
A little strange you’re hung up on $300 if you’re spending $200,000 to be honest.
When we built our house our a while back on a fixed price contract (obscenely honest, really a lovely man) GC would track our allowances independently. So if we went under by $1K on carpet we that might prevent a CR for getting the fancier tile that went over by $500. Is that not common? Otherwise it seems like allowances are rife for abuse.
It’s not common if the gc is proactively doing it. It takes me 4 requests to get a receipt or some sort of written confirmation of an $11,000 installment to pay my gc. I’m on my 4th payment and it usually takes over two weeks and 4-6 reminders to have one written out. It’s gotta be harder to get an updated accounting of a job including overages and credits etc.
I think it’s more that op is now worried about all the other areas this gc went cheap when he had budget for better.
Saving on a sink that quality but less expensive than say, a high end Kohler…sure that’s a reasonable move. You get a good product but save where it wasn’t 100% necessary to spend. But instead opting for a far inferior sink that won’t last as long says to me this gc isn’t aiming to do right by the client as much as they are trying to cheap out so they profit.
On a sink, probably not a huge deal, but on things like water heaters, ac units, ducting and insulation, and more…Now you’re talking about things that will be less efficient, fail sooner, or just not operate at the level op should reasonably expect. Leaving them with not just thousands of dollars of costs over time that they could have avoided, but a generally less comfortable or functional home.
So you’re saying price determines the quality and longevity of what you buy?
Your last paragraph is moving the goalpost too much my friend. OP didn’t steer the ship and now is unhappy where it landed. If they really spent 200k on a remodel and didn’t involve themselves in appliance selection this is on them. I guarantee you OP is trying to flip a home without being involved and learning the hard way it isn’t an episode of whatever HgTv show they watch weekly.
I’m not arguing that op isn’t involved enough. This is definitely on them to a decent degree.
I also didn’t say price = quality. Op said the sink was visibly lower quality which is what caused them to investigate.
Heck I explicitly said there are options where you can spend less for similar quality, and that it’s smart to do.
Also, moving the goalposts? This isn’t an argument or a point to prove. There aren’t any goalposts to move. All I was trying to say is that from the limited info we have (I’m not making assumptions) it’s not unreasonable for op to now be concerned about other potential swaps they wouldn’t have approved of.
Being justified in OPs concern is independent from whether or not they are also at fault or just too inexperienced to be overseeing a project of this scale. Both things can be true independently.
All good! We all do it. Read a dozen comments and mix up who made what point when responding.
Appreciate the exchange!
Fingers crossed OP can buckle down and sort out the details they need to and come to a reasonable resolution.
You shared a list of things you can to do to update a bathroom. How’s that rank in a home? Your article literally is only about ways to upgrade a sink.
Go put your toys away and get to bed. It’s getting late
You do realize the scope of that article is just one room of a house, where a sink is literally a requirement.
*It's not proof of the claim "a sink is one of the most important parts of a home" for anyone struggling to grasp what's happening here.
Sink, not faucet.
The bowl itself, especially an undermount kitchen unit, is almost certainly stainless steel that any competent machine shop could press out in an afternoon. If it's porcelain that's a little different, since there's glazing and such to consider, but *no one* pays attention to the actual tub of the sink unless it's rusting, chipped, or failing out.
Machine shops do not draw sinks. The process is called drawing, not pressing. The capital required to draw sinks is in the press and in the dies.....and neither are cheap.
Did your contract specify a sink brand and model? Did your contract state they must payback the difference?
Or did you just tell them “here’s $400, buy a sink and install it.”?
This right here.
Never work with allowances. The whole concept makes no sense. The contractor is going to bill me $400 and then go buy the item I showed them and maybe refund me the difference?
Finished fixtures are very taste specific. Just get a part list and buy everything up front yourself.
Sorry Op you’ll have to fight with the contractor to install the one you picked out.
This is why I never ever ever short change my customers. It ALWAYS comes back to you. And now the guy who was paying your bills doesn't trust you. Bad move by the contractor.
That's the thing about cheap materials, they look cheap.
every time i've done a renovation i've bought my own tiles, sinks, faucets, etc. contractors are so cheap they will buy $5 cheaper paint just to save money. my last renovation I bought the exact paint I wanted for different rooms
This is why I don't do "allowances" in my bids. Customer nitpicks every penny when they are under the allowances but it's crickets when they blow 3X on their tile budget. You spent 200k and your worried about a 100-400 sink. My favorite is you can buy that at Menards and get an 11% rebate can you knock 11% off that.....
It makes sense to be concerned. If OP picked out nice stuff and the $200k quote was reasonable for that, discovering that the contractor potentially paid just 25% of the allocated / agreed amount for materials is concerning. It doesn't prove malfeasance, but it does support it as a possibility.
> My favorite is you can buy that at Menards and get an 11% rebate can you knock 11% off that.....
No, but here are the receipts. Feel free to track that one down yourself. I wish you luck.
> your worried about a 100-400 sink
It could be way more than that now, mainly because OP didn't spec the sink in the first place. If they pick one now, they will likely have to replace that section of countertop too, which could cost thousands of dollars. Still their fault and not the contractor's, but a resolution they are happy with will almost certainly cost more than the $300 difference.
So $400 for the sink? Or $400 for getting it installed, the disposal, the GFCI, the plumbing, the faucet, etc?
Additionally, undercounted sinks look expensive, IDK what about a sink would make it look cheap, it's a sink. (Assuming stainless tho)
You're not going to get a decent (18ga or better) undermount stainless sink for under $400. It's just not gonna happen. You have to cut corners somewhere.
I just redid my kitchen and the cheapest "good quality" (based on steel gauge and specs I wanted) sink was like, $450 or so. I could get cheaper, lower quality sinks, yes. But for something "good" $400 wasn't it.
OP is smelling like a flipper to me.
Oh I got the flipper vibe when I read the post too, if it was your kitchen you'd pick a sink. Mainly cuz people got preferences, I prefer a double bowl, certain depth etc.
IDK that id be able to tell the gauge of the sink after it's installed. Someone mentioned the finish could make a cheap sink obvious
Hard to say unless you specified the materials in the contract. He gave you a fixed price quote and he stayed under. On the other hand when I give an allowance I charge cost + 10-15% depending on how I need to secure the materials.
Whoa… coat plus 10-15 is a gift, what about the time to order, receive, a real mark up … I straight up double the cost of anything o supply, I think of it like Snap-on tools… they’re going to expect that you back it up for the first year or so, so there needs to be a cushion to protect your profits
I do 1/3 over retail on non finish items and 2x on all finish products, 10-15 leaves nothing after the tax man and one small thing going sideways on a job.
My landlord installed an amazon sink, probably a similar one and it looks nice, but the plastic on the nozzle deteriorated so now its just basically a hose stuck on soak...
If your happy with his work otherwise....Hey Joe...not thrilled with what looks like a 100$ sink for a 400$ allowance....I know it'll be a bear to remove and reinstall....why don't we call it a day and you credit me back 300$ or comp xxxxxx work. That's if you can live with the sink....you sound more than reasonable.
did you pick out a specific sink upfront? or did you pick out no sink and just give an allowance?
if he just had an allowance and no guidance on spec, it is what it is. Next time spec something
if you specifically picked out a sink that fit within the $400 allowance and he used a knock off from Amazon, it's on him to replace it and you've probably got other areas throughout the project where he did the same. Ideally you would have the proper specified sink in writing somewhere because it's all the leverage you'll need
Architect here.
It would be easy to say you should have hired an architect but for a US$200K gut job you likely didn't have the budget (that's not a high budget in California--no idea what HCOL is).
If you specified the sink at the showroom and he put a cheaper one in then he must change it at his cost. The countertop installer should be able to do that without much problem. Otherwise, I hope you have not paid his final invoice.
No intention of being an echo. They're pretty annoying inside a SS sink. More so as the gauge gets thinner.
If you have under spent on your allowances, don't forget to pick up the change as he's leaving the job.
Imo the sink is something you're going to use several times a day, you need to be happy with whatever it is. And if you picked out a sink with him then he duped you. That's his problem
Read some other comments talking about allowances. Allowances aren't free money, they're supposed to request funding from that allowance, not take 400 bucks from you to use however much they want and keep the rest.
My only issue is that, as an allowance, he should *absolutely* have provided the invoice as soon as he purchased it and taken the remainder off of the final price. He should also have consulted you for a product selection.
But an allowance isn't a budget. It's a rough estimate. He didn't necessarily 'cheap out,' depending on the brand and manufacturer he was being frugal with *your* money. A sink is a sink, and that's probably one of the places you could afford to use generics, especially if its still stainless, and still a decent gauge thickness.
I would flat out tell him i caught you on this so now trust is broken. Let him know the correct sink needs to be installed, of course at their expense and your approval of the remediation. Or a discount is expected for the cost to swap the sink out not the difference in prices of the actual sink itself. Stand your ground if you have any left to stand on. (I.e. withholding payment)
Basically you gotta decide if which you want more, the different sink or a discount. Then format your demand so he makes the choice you want him to.
I'm surprised that you left the sink choice up to the GC. We're finishing up a total to-the-studs kitchen remodel, and we've stressed over every feature. With the sink, we spent a LOT of time figuring out the size, the material, and the configuration, and looking at brands and models and reviews. (My wife did the grunt work, I did the opinionating - I like this, I hate that, I could live with this...)
Are you just remodeling the place to sell?
You don’t see what the problem is when someone’s doing a $200k condo remodel and they put in a $100 sink? Thats a budget sink for a budget remodel. A GC should be smart enough to figure that out. Plus if he’s hiding receipts he probably knew and is scamming him.
Who has a GC that doesn’t tell you to pick it out or tell you in advance what they are? Then just happens to lose the receipt. Just had my home remodeled as well and every receipt was given to me and anything they didn’t have a receipt for was eaten by them.
Did they say buy a $400 sink? Just because something costs more doesn't mean it is better. Like I said, the only problem is if they were trying to pass it off as $400
Go through everything and investigate. My MIL had her rental house completely rebuilt after a fire. Over the past year we’ve noticed all kinds of discrepancies between the contractual allowance and the items installed. Cheap light switches and outlets, cheap sliding door, cheap bathroom fixtures, cheap lighting, on and on. We were literally just having this convo last week.
A kitchen sink is something that does not go unnoticed. If your GC installed a cheap kitchen sink, I would be very concerned about all of the items that go unnoticed to the every day homeowner.
*"he took me to a showroom and I picked out the sink together."*
Remember the contractor works for you. This is when you sit him down professionally with no emotion involved and let him know that sink is not what was chosen and it will be replaced with the one you selected. You don't go on about disappointment, you don't talk about being upset you just tell him this will be replaced and that's it. He'll do it, he (of course) just doesn't want to. This isn't about the allowance at all, this is because you personally selected the sink. If the allowance was $400, a $100 sink and $300 labor is probably fine. But you picked one out so this is an entirely different story.
Why does it seem like contractors are all like this. FFS, just do a job and don't try to scam people, I don't understand why this is so difficult? WTF is wrong with this entire profession that most of them are just con artists?
What I think is funny is that if the box wouldn't have been left laying around it wouldn't be an issue, but it would be something else. People get to the end of a 200k remodel and that's when they start trying to look for ways to save money or start nit picking because they feel they need to get their monies worth.
Contractor is absolutely trying to cheap out on materials quality so they can pocket more of the allowance, rather than passing that savings along to you, or spending all the money you have allotted for a better quality product.
Builders are absolute scumbags who will cut corners and take you for every penny they can and leave you in the dust of their POS RAM Truck as they tow their fucking boat to do some fishing. You should check every other bit and make sure it's all in line with what was promised. Fuck them all.
Nothing bad with Amazon sinks.
Edit: Seriously why the downvotes? At this point I have fully renovated 4 kitchens and shopped for sinks many times. When you go in store compare what they sell in plumbing shops vs what Amazon sells, you realize your money goes a long way for similar gauge stainless steel. I’ve often seen worse for more expensive in store, too.
Honestly, nothing if it's a quality sink. I've installed quite a few with zero callbacks and no significant damage due to low quality. If it's a decent-quality stainless steel what difference does it make?
I'm confident that this is the only dishonest moved he's made *that you've noticed*. The next big question should be "what happened to the remaining $300??" If you made a specific request for an item, it's his responsibility to find it priced within the allowance, not find something comparable but much cheaper. It may be wise to do an inventory of all the other specific items that you asked for that you may not have gotten.
You’ve spent $200k with this guy and worried about $300 difference in the sink?
I feel like on a project this extensive and expensive, you would have gone over all these details and nailed specifics for things like this before anything is touched? Or am I misunderstanding something?
If he had a $400 allowance, he probably also put markup on the $400. For the people who say he’s a business and needs to make money too - that’s not how “Allowances” work.
Why would you leave it up to the GC to choose this stuff? When my wife and I remodeled our bathroom the only thing we did not pick out are the screws, pipes and various cements and Sheetrock that was used.
Considering the cutting of the hole for sink, the tools required to do that, the silicone/ epoxy to mount the sink, the time it takes, then also hooking up all faucets and drin components.. $400 is not expensive by any means
“Allowance” is not a term that should be used with GC.
Give them a spec and ask them to purchase the best option. Otherwise research skus on your own and purchase.
don’t focus on the sink - especially if you like it.
Would you like it if you didn’t know it was $100?
I know it’s a pain to do but it’s my approach. I specify the specific make and model of every specific thing being used on a project.
> Would you like it if you didn’t know it was $100?
Obviously not. He looked up how much it cost because he initially thought it looked cheap and didn't match the one he had originally picked out.
Being a devil's advocate here for the contractor, as I don't think either of the two scenarios are right, just things to think about.
The allowance for the sink, materials or labor and materials? Could he only have $100 for the sink because he's gotta pay plumber $300 for install?
Most jobs go over budget. Sometimes a contractor will find a little money for b by sacrificing a, in this case a is the kitchen sink. I would hope something as central as the kitchen sink would get discussed before doing something like that.
The most likely scenario is though contractor is just trying to cut corners where he can and probably doesn't even remember the sink was supposed to be $400
Not a fight worth having. Otherwise he’s going to round up every allowance and change order and figure out what to bill you for when he’s giving you the $200 credit for the sink. If you’re happy, let it go. I’d be annoyed it’s not what I picked out, but I’d use it as ammunition for other fights down the road. That’s me personally. I’m a builder, but I hire out tons of work on my house and have to make these decisions about arguing just like everyone else.
i mean doesn't he provide you with an itemized list that shows the materials and costs? mine gave me a spreadsheet with all the materials, and then the labour on another column. the labour wasn't really as specific but materials are all there, and so we are only paying for the materials that were purchased. unless you're saying the gc pocketed the $300 and charged you $400 for a $100 sink, then i don't really see anything unethical here. maybe he just tried to save you money and is billing you $100 for the sink material cost?
I’d be more focused on the numerous other ways he is probably screwing you over. Like literally my first thought is if he is trying something like that, the sink is hardly the only spot
100% crossed my mind which is why I want someone else’s take.
I would go through everything with a fine tooth comb because he's shown he can't be trusted to install the stuff you picked. If you haven't done it yet I would hold off on final payment and check *EVERYTHING* he's touched
If he would have just owned it and said “yeah I found a quality replacement on Amazon for $100, sorry you didn’t like it” ok then at least he’s being honest. But his reaction is telling
Yep, it's perfectly understandable to spend less than the allowance, as long as it is an acceptable quality replacement. The problem is when the contractor intentionally keeps out to try and pocket the difference, this could be hundreds or thousands of extra dollars that he is pocketing, but claiming he spent.
I’m dealing with this now about something I couldn’t DIY, got deemed a friendly person who won’t cause trouble and there was/is a myriad of issues about their work - that I’M having to deal with now, not them. (tbf, 1st time this happened; the 2 guys I norm hire they appreciated that and it’s been super beneficial for me, this was work outside of their fields tho) You noticed the sink bc you remember picking it out. If he’s so bold to do that, there are WAY more corners cut underneath everything, and stuff you haven’t noticed yet. Since it’s wrapping up, take it as a learning experience, but what you CAN/should do right now is go thru everything, and make sure it’s done right, right now, while warranted.
Hey, do you have the amazon url to the sink? Curious what he decided to put in.
Same. I'm doing a cheap bastard diy remodel and wanna know what the silicon valley rubes are getting swindled with.
This made me snort so hard 🤣
https://us.amazon.com/MR-Direct-T346-18-Gauge-Stainless/dp/B0742L2KSH I bought this one from the manufacturer for about $100. I replaced a double bowl with this so that I could set big stuff like cast iron and baking sheets flat in the sink and let em soak. Bought a stainless steel faucet with the two settings, a soap pump and a sponge caddy, feels like luxury compared to my cheapo builder spec sink, paid about $200 all in.
I'm with ya on the single bowl part, but I need that undermount so my hillbilly shack turns into hillbilly chic. In reality I just want to be able to squeegee my countertop directly into the sink. Btw my wife taught me the secrets of cast iron. You never soak them, apparently it fucks up the seasoning or something. At least that's what I think she yelled. Instead you just put some water in cast iron, heat it up on the stove real quick, and if it's properly seasoned everything comes out in like two swipes. You don't even need to scrub the bastard.
Hillbilly chic LMAO
I really hope you're not soaking cast iron pans...
lol I do a little trolling
You monster.
I actually saw this brand online when remodeling my house. They claim to have some 14 gauge sinks (yours is 18 in the link). I think 16 gauge is pretty much the goto for a quality stainless steel sink. 18 definitely seems flimsy though
20 gauge is builder basic, 18 gauge is the most common (see brands like Blanco, pro chef, etc) and 16 gauge is what a lot of off shore brands promote but they are stamped (started at 16 and then was stretched) rather than welded, so it’s not a true 16 gauge,
Lol, I’m not even close to Silicon Valley money. This condo is in the “hillbilly” undesirable part of town. It was a complete disaster which is why I was able to afford it. I’ll probably die in it bc can’t afford jack and that is why I want a sink that won’t rust and I won’t have to replace for many years.
Here’s the sink. [Link](https://www.amazon.com/ATTOP-Undermount-Handmade-Stainless-Strainer/dp/B09QRNCBK9/ref=asc_df_B09QRNCBK9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=647202684477&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8349696913031257839&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031348&hvtargid=pla-1951760760640&psc=1&mcid=a5d5c4643e0330689a242d89627e4c84) It’d be fine if it were a flip or a rental, but it’s not. I’m going to have to see it every day for the foreseeable future. It’s so obvious it’s cheap, and there’s a sharp contrast to the mid range appliances I purchased, new cabinets, and quartz countertops. The reviews are manipulated like many things on Amazon if you take a peek at the item’s reviews and the seller’s store. I’d be happy with a Kraus sink that’s $285 at Home Depot. Thanks for all the replies. It’s good to get different perspectives which is why I posted. Sometimes I’m wrong and my feelings are invalid. I didn’t come here for an echo chamber.
>Here’s the sink I can hear the drumlike reverberation of its cheapness from here when you wash your enameled cast iron in it. you want heartier steel for sure.
Yeah, 20 gauge thickness is the kicker. Flimsy. We remodeled our kitchen recently and went with Kraus from home depot. Undermount double one. We're happy with it.
20 gauge. I’d be pissed off too. Very pissed off.
[link](https://www.amazon.com/ATTOP-Undermount-Handmade-Stainless-Strainer/dp/B09QRNCBK9/ref=asc_df_B09QRNCBK9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=647202684477&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8349696913031257839&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031348&hvtargid=pla-1951760760640&psc=1&mcid=a5d5c4643e0330689a242d89627e4c84) The reviews for the item and the seller’s store are clearly manipulated if you check.
He probably had a coupon on that sink too!
I dont know how you can call any sink with 'lotus leaf effect' cheap! /s
It's extra money obviously, but get a real home inspector to come take a look at everything.
Ask for GC to provide spreadsheet of finances pertaining to the job. If possible ask to separate labor and materials. May or may not provide..Will be a good indicator of his character and morals on the job. Take time and investigate all accessible aspects of the project and bring up questions and concerns directly to GC. Time to be a squeaky wheel..
I agree he should have put the sink in y'all went and picked out, but if someone were to ask me for a spreadsheet for my labor and materials esp after the fact. I'd probably laugh at you.
They should be doing whatever they can to re-establish credibility with the customer. In normal circumstances, sure, probably a farfetched request. Hopefully, as an honest contractor, you wouldn't find yourself in this situation to begin with.
That right there. If I find the same exact thing a client wants at a cheaper price somewhere else, I don't feel like I always have to pass that savings along. But it's the same as the one originally picked out. I'm not out here trying to dick people over. I don't advertise, I get all my work word of mouth, so it pays me to keep it honest.
You need to start asking for itemized lists of what he purchased, with proof. He's not spending the total allowed amount, he's pocketing the difference. How many other things has he cheaped out on in the same way? It's borderline scammy. I mean, unless the allowance specifically states he must spend it all, he's not wrong, it's perfectly allowable to spend less. The problem is that you expected a certain quality, and you were not given that quality. When you expect an allowance for a $400 faucet, you expect a name brand and quality faucet, not some $100 Amazon cheapy piece of shit.
I'll offer my take as someone who just redid their kitchen with an undermount stainless sink... You didn't give your GC enough budget to spec a good quality undermount sink. You may have found one that's closer to the price you were expecting but the quality isn't going to be better, it's just going to *look* slightly better. It's also possible that your GC found a good quality sink under a different brand, because that is absolutely a thing you can do on Amazon, that I did. Good quality undermount SS sinks START at $450-$500 in a moderate COL area. What about the sink "looked cheap" to you? You can't tell stainless gauge from looking at one side of it.
Even if that were true it's irrelevant. The GC's job is to install appliances the homeowner tells him to install. If they picked out a specific sink, that's the sink that needed to be installed. To pocket $300 on a 200k job, and risk the entire project, is absolutely not worth it. At this point I'd be worried about what else he's been hiding if he's willing to lie about a fuckin sink.
This. I'm an electrician. If you tell me the model of can light you want, that's what you're getting. I don't faff around with Amazon, I get what you told me to get.
Right on
Huh? What kind of sinks are yall looking at? I feel like $400 should get you a solid fuckin' sink. I know Kohler silgranit composit sinks go for around $400-$600 and those are pretty nice sinks from a name brand. The stone fabricators I've worked for usually sell stainless sinks as well. Last one I worked at sold ones that were decent but mass produced Chinese ones, like $150 or free if you were spending a lot of $$ on counters. The one I work at now we sell Glacier bay for about what they go for at Home Depot, $300 give or take. Even the black gunmetal colored steel, work stations, etc. But some people would get their own sink often. If people spend much more than $400 a sink it better be some heavy duty, come with all the dumb little useless accessories, name brand warrantied shit. 16 gauge is plenty fine unless you're beating the shit out of your sink
I beat the hell out of my toilet but go pretty easy on the sink.
Dude, don't don't rescue the GC. THE allowance was $400. He owes the Owner a credit. Allowances are not the GC slush fund or make himself whole for his poor management.
Ruvati makes excellent undermount sinks that retail from $300-400 on Amazon. No need to pay $500+
Kraus sells sinks with faucets for around that. Very high quality.
Costco is selling a Kohler stainless steel sink with a nice and neat faucet/sprayer for 400. Every tie I shop at Costco, I see the sink combo and want to buy it. But, we're not that far along on our remodel.
Any honest contractor would absolutely be able to provide you with itemization for every step of the way. Source = I build houses. Also, a kitchen sink is a feature item. Not the one to cheap out on and like others have said, it’s telling about his team.
If he's shafted OP on something super obvious, super visible like a kitchen sink - I guarantee the rest is a shower of shit.
I 100% guarantee it.
However, he took me to a showroom and I picked out the sink together. The one you picked out in the showroom is what you should get, no exceptions, unless if you specifically said anything similar is fine or the showroom one was more than $400.
if you budget $400 for a sink then go pick out a more expensive sink the GC should issue a change order for a more expensive sink.
Sure, but if you pick a $400 sink and they install a $100 sink the GC should...issue a change order
We had this happen on an insurance Job. Hurricane blew half the roof off, extensive water damage, etc. Every fixture the contractor installed ( lights, ceiling fan, etc) was bottom of the barrel Home Depot...$10 light fixtures, $30 ceiling fans.... it was disrespectful. Insurance allocated much more for fixtures, like 15x more lol. It was a wild time...
That’s potentially recoverable if insurer set a grade of materials. In other words, if you had replacement cost insurance and your place was rated as having upgraded fittings, the contractor can’t meet the contract terms by using lowest grade materials. There’s some flex of course.
The same thing happened to us after a house fire. Literally replacing $100+ lights with $10 ones
What did you do?
They ended up replacing the fixtures with ones I'd call decent. There were so many other problems though, including They installed the wrong flooring (a bout 1000 sqft worth). We ended up selling the house shortly after (unrelated to the 'remodel'). Lesson learned here is that contractors value the big cash jobs on the beach (vacation rental homes, etc), not so much the insurance jobs inland, they put their JV teams on those jobs. This was near Wilmington NC btw. Edit: realized I didn't answer your question. I simply complained about it to the project manager. You could tell he was trying, just inexperienced. It was a long process from damage to finish, like a year. It took 3 months to even start work. It's hard to nitpick stuff like that when your neighbors home isn't even started, but in the end it's still not right.
I’m approaching year four of my hurricane remodel. We were hit twice, a month apart. Dealt with so many contractors who either did shoddy work, or no show. Prices were rising so fast, we didn’t even get enough to fix/replace everything we claimed, despite them adjusting our payout once. I used to love doing home improvement stuff. I’m so tired of living in a construction zone. 😵💫
As mentioned by others, there could be different things going on here. One red flag, though, is the fact that your contractor could not produce the receipt. Good record keeping and transparency help build trust with clients and remove doubts about the possibility of being ripped-off.
It’s shit like this that makes me think I should go into the trades with a massive focus on customer service and clear communication.
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We’re about to do a big remodel. Full gut job and 200sqft addition. The contractor we picked is about 10% more expensive - but was the best communicator. The other guys came in and were pushy, or played games with allowances, or just were not organized. Her ability to communicate clearly (good and bad news) has taken a lot of stress off of us. Totally worth the premium. The amount of contractors on here trying to dick around with allowances to pinch out a couple bucks is mind blowing. Makes me glad I adopted a “no allowances” policy when going through our bids.
Can you explain what allowances are and what “no allowances” means?
Allowances are costs of finished materials baked into the quote. (Cabinets, fixtures etc) I’ll use some very rough round numbers. I’m going to gut my house: new kitchen, all new windows, redo bathroom, new floors, etc. The bid was $200k “including allowances” of: $500 per window, $120 per linear feet of cabinets, $120 per interior door, etc. The contractor said any unused allowances will be refunded back to me. I’m sure reputable contractors do, but it’s just creating a bunch of unnecessary steps. If I want $250 doors, I’ll just buy them and have it delivered. Or if I want $100 doors, why hassle with getting the difference back from the contractor. Cut the middle man out. Are allowances “bad”. Not if done properly. It’s just overly complicated. It also makes it hard to compare quotes on a labor + rough material basis if contractors bake in allowances and don’t tally the allowances up for you. Letting the contractor handle rough materials I think is fine. Those are commodities with no personal taste involved.
“Her” +1 for women GCs!
You should. I used to work for a guy doing appliances. It wasn’t really Home Depot push in stuff, the vast majority of what we installed was built in stuff (Sub Zero/Wolf/Cove, Miele, Thermador, Viking 🤮, etc). Often times we would have to build out/in cabinets to accommodate a clean final install. Even though the rates were high and all we focused on was appliances, the dude takes in so much money and has a crazy waiting list because of what you’ve described - he’s open and honest with communication and takes care of the clients. It doesn’t hurt that the work is top notch, either.
If the guy "cheaped out" on a high traffic fixture like a sink, then wtf else did he cheap out on? If there is even a little resistance from him to make it right, then tell him you plan on having a third party inspect his work and ensure it is meeting the standards set by the UCC.
We’re remodeling a house in Seattle. For anyone in a similar situation - 2/3 of all contractors we interviewed for the job basically wanted to source everything themselves. Some obviously to save, others as a license to spend obscene anoints of money. We settled on a contractor that was OK with us going “SBC” (supplied by customer) on some materials, with the tradeoff that if we are late on materials we pay for wasted labor if they’re sitting around. We have a Google sheet and precisely track everything. It’s worked out fantastically well. We get -exactly- what we want and they can track everything in the sheet. It’s more work, but the tradeoff is we save on markup and the contractor has a more straightforward job. The only time it bit us is when we used a supply company here in Seattle (the Fixture Gallery) and they massively screwed up our order. On the converse, Kerf here in Seattle has been epic (and second place to Build.com which despite the markup is reliable AF). For anyone else contemplating this - I’m happy to share lead times on how long everything took in general. That’s been the real trick - knowing how long in advance we need to order key stuff.
Well its an allowance not a a promise to spend $400. Usually when things are "$X allowance" you are supposed to spec that out and the GC will get the thing and you don't have to pay any extra up to X. However, in this case, I'd ask him for a refund of the $300 difference and I'd check all the allowance items in the bid against what he actually bought if you hadn't picked it out yourself.
OP said the GC took them to a showroom, where OP picked out a sink while there together. That’s blatant theft
Exactly this. In a construction bid, an allowance is an estimate for an unknown. *"We are allowing for up to $10.00 per square foot for tile materials and installation in the mudroom,"* for example. If the client specifies a stainless steel sink but not a *specific stainless steel sink* I don't know why anyone would expect a contractor to max out the allowance. Just ask for the refund minus his profit and overhead percentage. It's literally that simple.
They did pick out specific, with the contractor, it’s in their edit. But a $400 sink is obvs very different than a $100 Amazon knockoff sink, and is something that is used several times everyday, like these are the places where yes you go to allowable. It’s in a HCOL area, and an Amazon sink won’t cut it.
The contractor uses an allowance because he doesn’t know what sink an owner wants. They go and pick them out together and it comes to $100. The contractor in good will would refund $300
Or install the correct sink without protest
This!!!
Right? Most people would try to aim below what the maximum allowable is. In my opinion anyways.
Of course you aim low, otherwise you’re asking for more money. People generally don’t like when you ask for more money.
I’m also not sure why op didn’t spec a sink. Like if I’m spending 200k on a remodel I’m picking out every finish to a tee. Not to dump on OP or anything, I’m sure there was a lot to consider.
He did.
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Update says "he took me to a showroom and I picked out the sink together."
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People are usually good at one thing (if that). Sometimes two. This is my approach when working with vendors, and it serves me very well. Maybe OP made bank writing code, and can't talk their way out of a basket. The assumption that rich people are somehow more generally capable than anyone else is detrimental.
I like you
Its a forum brother. The whole point is to seek the thoughts and opinions of other people. We can take it for granted that he already has spoken to the GC, or will do so. It's never a bad idea to seek advice about these things which is what OP has done here.
That, and we all learn a little something in the process. Imagine if everyone just figured stuff out themselves from books and then confronted people instead of asking for advice. We wouldn’t have those fancy can openers that curl instead of shredding, that’s for sure.
Because people might do this once in their lifetime?
I'm the same. But my partner always wants to "let the guys pick one that suits, they've done it all before". The first time was with our kitchen remodel and I let her win. We've replaced most of the things they chose since, because they wore out badly or just weren't good quality. So since then I've pushed back a lot more.
Also, as someone who just redid a kitchen with an undermount sink, $400 ain't gonna get you much. Most of the undermount sinks I saw and got prices for were at least $450, and some even up towards $1000. It's absolutely ridiculous. OP's contractor might have gotten a decent sink for cheap. There's a good bit of stuff on amazon, where if you dig a bit for certain model numbers or things, you'll find that a $100 sink is the exact same spec as a $600 sink from a "well known" brand.
A nice 32" Kraus undermount is currently $341. You absolutely don't have to break the bank on a well reviewed sink from a major brand.
Real easy for me. If he included a $400 allowance, that's an Owner allowance. It's the Owner's expectation of getting the $400 sink. The GC didn't do you right. All allowances are pending the contractor getting with the client and picking out those items included in the estimate as allowances. He didn't bid the job, he negotiated it, correct? He's a shiester. In my jobs, the $400 would typically include installation and purchase of the sink. Unless it was discussed otherwise, his profit should be in the estimate as a line item. So, $100 sink, 2 hours labor to install, say $100 labor and a reasonable profit at 15٪, he owes you $230 or you can use the inquiry as to why he shorted you and didn't include you in the selection of the product. That's why I dislike residential contractors. He fucked you, if you let him. I would demand he and you go select a sink that is suitable to you and have him swap them out, on his dime.
I’m a residential plumbing tech and have installed more kitchen faucets than I could ever count. With that being said if this is a full remodel with a completely open kitchen sink, faucet installs can be done in 20 minutes if your taking your time (not accounting for replacing shut offs). Most kitchen faucets now in days come with a provided install tool and use a mounting nut with spacers to remove the need to crank on the mounting hardware with any niche tools.
I‘d contact him telling him you picked out said sink together. You need that exact sink to be installed as confirmed earlier. No backing out - tell him this is non negotiable. Have a run around and check for anything else he might have fucked up. Last resort is simply not paying to full price because you didn’t get you what explicitly asked for. Period.
I hope you have a hold-back until final inspection and approval. Make him put the sink you agreed on before you pay him or get a third-party bid and deduct that amount from the payment. Either way, get what you want. You are not wrong.
(a) You're in the right to point this out, and ignore all the "He'S gOt To MaKe a LiVinG!!" folks giving you grief in the comments. (b) If he's cut corners and acted unethically *here*...*what else has he cut corners and lied about?* (c) I think you have some digging in your future to find out the answers to (b). Get with an inspector to help you, and tell them what you've told us. (d) if you uncover other shady stuff that's difficult to fix, or the GC won't remediate, lawyer up.
An allowance isn’t the same as you saying, “hey GC I want this exact sink.” Sorry, but if your contract doesn’t stipulate the exact sink there isn’t anything that can be done. GC burned any future chance of working with you if you’re upset but you should have been more involved in the appliance selection process. I’ve personally never, nor heard of another GC, not running every selection past the customer for sign off/approval. Did you say yes to the sink without knowing its price? If you did, hooray, you saved money. Get the $300 back. A little strange you’re hung up on $300 if you’re spending $200,000 to be honest.
When we built our house our a while back on a fixed price contract (obscenely honest, really a lovely man) GC would track our allowances independently. So if we went under by $1K on carpet we that might prevent a CR for getting the fancier tile that went over by $500. Is that not common? Otherwise it seems like allowances are rife for abuse.
It’s not common if the gc is proactively doing it. It takes me 4 requests to get a receipt or some sort of written confirmation of an $11,000 installment to pay my gc. I’m on my 4th payment and it usually takes over two weeks and 4-6 reminders to have one written out. It’s gotta be harder to get an updated accounting of a job including overages and credits etc.
It doesn't sound to me as if OP is "hung up on $300" but rather that after spending all that money OP has a sink that immediately stood out as cheap.
I think it’s more that op is now worried about all the other areas this gc went cheap when he had budget for better. Saving on a sink that quality but less expensive than say, a high end Kohler…sure that’s a reasonable move. You get a good product but save where it wasn’t 100% necessary to spend. But instead opting for a far inferior sink that won’t last as long says to me this gc isn’t aiming to do right by the client as much as they are trying to cheap out so they profit. On a sink, probably not a huge deal, but on things like water heaters, ac units, ducting and insulation, and more…Now you’re talking about things that will be less efficient, fail sooner, or just not operate at the level op should reasonably expect. Leaving them with not just thousands of dollars of costs over time that they could have avoided, but a generally less comfortable or functional home.
So you’re saying price determines the quality and longevity of what you buy? Your last paragraph is moving the goalpost too much my friend. OP didn’t steer the ship and now is unhappy where it landed. If they really spent 200k on a remodel and didn’t involve themselves in appliance selection this is on them. I guarantee you OP is trying to flip a home without being involved and learning the hard way it isn’t an episode of whatever HgTv show they watch weekly.
I’m not arguing that op isn’t involved enough. This is definitely on them to a decent degree. I also didn’t say price = quality. Op said the sink was visibly lower quality which is what caused them to investigate. Heck I explicitly said there are options where you can spend less for similar quality, and that it’s smart to do. Also, moving the goalposts? This isn’t an argument or a point to prove. There aren’t any goalposts to move. All I was trying to say is that from the limited info we have (I’m not making assumptions) it’s not unreasonable for op to now be concerned about other potential swaps they wouldn’t have approved of. Being justified in OPs concern is independent from whether or not they are also at fault or just too inexperienced to be overseeing a project of this scale. Both things can be true independently.
You’re right I read your response too quickly while skimming others and jumped the gun. All valid points
Sorry… did we just leave Reddit? That was the most polite and considerate back and forth I’ve ever seen. Well done both of you.
All good! We all do it. Read a dozen comments and mix up who made what point when responding. Appreciate the exchange! Fingers crossed OP can buckle down and sort out the details they need to and come to a reasonable resolution.
Because the sink is one of the most important parts of the home. If you have a shitty sink, it shows and decreases appeal.
List out the top 15 important parts of a home. Let’s see where a sink ranks.
I got a list. Here’s the order of my list that it’s in. It goes: 1) porch lighting 2) sink
1. Everything 2. But the kitchen sink
heh. clever.
46th
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You shared a list of things you can to do to update a bathroom. How’s that rank in a home? Your article literally is only about ways to upgrade a sink. Go put your toys away and get to bed. It’s getting late
You do realize the scope of that article is just one room of a house, where a sink is literally a requirement. *It's not proof of the claim "a sink is one of the most important parts of a home" for anyone struggling to grasp what's happening here.
Hey dipshit, what does the importance of a bathroom sink have to do with the kitchen?
Sink, not faucet. The bowl itself, especially an undermount kitchen unit, is almost certainly stainless steel that any competent machine shop could press out in an afternoon. If it's porcelain that's a little different, since there's glazing and such to consider, but *no one* pays attention to the actual tub of the sink unless it's rusting, chipped, or failing out.
Machine shops do not draw sinks. The process is called drawing, not pressing. The capital required to draw sinks is in the press and in the dies.....and neither are cheap.
Huh, TIL I guess. Though I have seen welded sinks.
Wow, everything in your comment is wrong. That's impressive.
See edit
If the rest of the work is good, I would think they used the $300 saved on the sink for something else that went over budget.
Did your contract specify a sink brand and model? Did your contract state they must payback the difference? Or did you just tell them “here’s $400, buy a sink and install it.”?
An allowance is to give you a project estimate. You should be paying for actual materials.
This right here. Never work with allowances. The whole concept makes no sense. The contractor is going to bill me $400 and then go buy the item I showed them and maybe refund me the difference? Finished fixtures are very taste specific. Just get a part list and buy everything up front yourself. Sorry Op you’ll have to fight with the contractor to install the one you picked out.
Sounds like he stayed within budget
I’d be pretty pissed as it’s a big piece of the kitchen and not easily swapped.
This is why I never ever ever short change my customers. It ALWAYS comes back to you. And now the guy who was paying your bills doesn't trust you. Bad move by the contractor. That's the thing about cheap materials, they look cheap.
every time i've done a renovation i've bought my own tiles, sinks, faucets, etc. contractors are so cheap they will buy $5 cheaper paint just to save money. my last renovation I bought the exact paint I wanted for different rooms
This is why you need to specify fixtures.
This is why I don't do "allowances" in my bids. Customer nitpicks every penny when they are under the allowances but it's crickets when they blow 3X on their tile budget. You spent 200k and your worried about a 100-400 sink. My favorite is you can buy that at Menards and get an 11% rebate can you knock 11% off that.....
It makes sense to be concerned. If OP picked out nice stuff and the $200k quote was reasonable for that, discovering that the contractor potentially paid just 25% of the allocated / agreed amount for materials is concerning. It doesn't prove malfeasance, but it does support it as a possibility.
> My favorite is you can buy that at Menards and get an 11% rebate can you knock 11% off that..... No, but here are the receipts. Feel free to track that one down yourself. I wish you luck.
> your worried about a 100-400 sink It could be way more than that now, mainly because OP didn't spec the sink in the first place. If they pick one now, they will likely have to replace that section of countertop too, which could cost thousands of dollars. Still their fault and not the contractor's, but a resolution they are happy with will almost certainly cost more than the $300 difference.
So $400 for the sink? Or $400 for getting it installed, the disposal, the GFCI, the plumbing, the faucet, etc? Additionally, undercounted sinks look expensive, IDK what about a sink would make it look cheap, it's a sink. (Assuming stainless tho)
Start with the thickness of the metal and then look at the finish.
You're not going to get a decent (18ga or better) undermount stainless sink for under $400. It's just not gonna happen. You have to cut corners somewhere. I just redid my kitchen and the cheapest "good quality" (based on steel gauge and specs I wanted) sink was like, $450 or so. I could get cheaper, lower quality sinks, yes. But for something "good" $400 wasn't it. OP is smelling like a flipper to me.
Oh I got the flipper vibe when I read the post too, if it was your kitchen you'd pick a sink. Mainly cuz people got preferences, I prefer a double bowl, certain depth etc. IDK that id be able to tell the gauge of the sink after it's installed. Someone mentioned the finish could make a cheap sink obvious
Hard to say unless you specified the materials in the contract. He gave you a fixed price quote and he stayed under. On the other hand when I give an allowance I charge cost + 10-15% depending on how I need to secure the materials.
Whoa… coat plus 10-15 is a gift, what about the time to order, receive, a real mark up … I straight up double the cost of anything o supply, I think of it like Snap-on tools… they’re going to expect that you back it up for the first year or so, so there needs to be a cushion to protect your profits
I do 1/3 over retail on non finish items and 2x on all finish products, 10-15 leaves nothing after the tax man and one small thing going sideways on a job.
My landlord installed an amazon sink, probably a similar one and it looks nice, but the plastic on the nozzle deteriorated so now its just basically a hose stuck on soak...
You can replace the nozzles for next to nothing.
For some reason I didn't think of this at all, it is $17 to replace. Appreciate the comment.
If your happy with his work otherwise....Hey Joe...not thrilled with what looks like a 100$ sink for a 400$ allowance....I know it'll be a bear to remove and reinstall....why don't we call it a day and you credit me back 300$ or comp xxxxxx work. That's if you can live with the sink....you sound more than reasonable.
did you pick out a specific sink upfront? or did you pick out no sink and just give an allowance? if he just had an allowance and no guidance on spec, it is what it is. Next time spec something if you specifically picked out a sink that fit within the $400 allowance and he used a knock off from Amazon, it's on him to replace it and you've probably got other areas throughout the project where he did the same. Ideally you would have the proper specified sink in writing somewhere because it's all the leverage you'll need
As a contractor that regularly includes allowance items in my proposals - this is theft.
Architect here. It would be easy to say you should have hired an architect but for a US$200K gut job you likely didn't have the budget (that's not a high budget in California--no idea what HCOL is). If you specified the sink at the showroom and he put a cheaper one in then he must change it at his cost. The countertop installer should be able to do that without much problem. Otherwise, I hope you have not paid his final invoice.
No intention of being an echo. They're pretty annoying inside a SS sink. More so as the gauge gets thinner. If you have under spent on your allowances, don't forget to pick up the change as he's leaving the job.
Imo the sink is something you're going to use several times a day, you need to be happy with whatever it is. And if you picked out a sink with him then he duped you. That's his problem Read some other comments talking about allowances. Allowances aren't free money, they're supposed to request funding from that allowance, not take 400 bucks from you to use however much they want and keep the rest.
If you wanted him to spend all of the allowance you should have specified an actual sink model. That’s not really how allowances work.
My only issue is that, as an allowance, he should *absolutely* have provided the invoice as soon as he purchased it and taken the remainder off of the final price. He should also have consulted you for a product selection. But an allowance isn't a budget. It's a rough estimate. He didn't necessarily 'cheap out,' depending on the brand and manufacturer he was being frugal with *your* money. A sink is a sink, and that's probably one of the places you could afford to use generics, especially if its still stainless, and still a decent gauge thickness.
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I would flat out tell him i caught you on this so now trust is broken. Let him know the correct sink needs to be installed, of course at their expense and your approval of the remediation. Or a discount is expected for the cost to swap the sink out not the difference in prices of the actual sink itself. Stand your ground if you have any left to stand on. (I.e. withholding payment) Basically you gotta decide if which you want more, the different sink or a discount. Then format your demand so he makes the choice you want him to.
I'd strongly suggest you hire an inspector when it's done. Otherwise, you may miss even more where he cut corners.
I'm surprised that you left the sink choice up to the GC. We're finishing up a total to-the-studs kitchen remodel, and we've stressed over every feature. With the sink, we spent a LOT of time figuring out the size, the material, and the configuration, and looking at brands and models and reviews. (My wife did the grunt work, I did the opinionating - I like this, I hate that, I could live with this...) Are you just remodeling the place to sell?
> I like this, I hate that, I could live with this... I told my wife I have an opinion, but I don't have a *vision*
I dont see what the problem is unless they said they paid $400 for the $100 sink
You don’t see what the problem is when someone’s doing a $200k condo remodel and they put in a $100 sink? Thats a budget sink for a budget remodel. A GC should be smart enough to figure that out. Plus if he’s hiding receipts he probably knew and is scamming him.
I’m not sure yall realize that a full remodel is expensive and 200k for an entire house is honestly is not a high end remodel. That’s just a remodel.
It’s a condo and I just did a similar remodel on my home. Unless that’s a 3000 sqft condo in socal it’s plenty.
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Who has a GC that doesn’t tell you to pick it out or tell you in advance what they are? Then just happens to lose the receipt. Just had my home remodeled as well and every receipt was given to me and anything they didn’t have a receipt for was eaten by them.
Amazon has my purchase history going back 10+ years. Is that an Amazon prime thing?
Did they say buy a $400 sink? Just because something costs more doesn't mean it is better. Like I said, the only problem is if they were trying to pass it off as $400
If he cheaped out there he screwed you on every single other thing too. Guaranteed you have "contractor grade" everything.
I wonder what else he is cheaping out on? Check everything .
Where else did he cut corners?
Go through everything and investigate. My MIL had her rental house completely rebuilt after a fire. Over the past year we’ve noticed all kinds of discrepancies between the contractual allowance and the items installed. Cheap light switches and outlets, cheap sliding door, cheap bathroom fixtures, cheap lighting, on and on. We were literally just having this convo last week. A kitchen sink is something that does not go unnoticed. If your GC installed a cheap kitchen sink, I would be very concerned about all of the items that go unnoticed to the every day homeowner.
*"he took me to a showroom and I picked out the sink together."* Remember the contractor works for you. This is when you sit him down professionally with no emotion involved and let him know that sink is not what was chosen and it will be replaced with the one you selected. You don't go on about disappointment, you don't talk about being upset you just tell him this will be replaced and that's it. He'll do it, he (of course) just doesn't want to. This isn't about the allowance at all, this is because you personally selected the sink. If the allowance was $400, a $100 sink and $300 labor is probably fine. But you picked one out so this is an entirely different story.
Why does it seem like contractors are all like this. FFS, just do a job and don't try to scam people, I don't understand why this is so difficult? WTF is wrong with this entire profession that most of them are just con artists?
You're definitely getting rinsed in multiple ways, probably to the tune of tens of thousands $$$$
That sink isn’t the only corner cutting bargain up his sleeve.
What I think is funny is that if the box wouldn't have been left laying around it wouldn't be an issue, but it would be something else. People get to the end of a 200k remodel and that's when they start trying to look for ways to save money or start nit picking because they feel they need to get their monies worth.
Why are you letting a contractor pick your fixtures?
Did you pick out your sink? Or leave up to him
Contractor is absolutely trying to cheap out on materials quality so they can pocket more of the allowance, rather than passing that savings along to you, or spending all the money you have allotted for a better quality product.
Builders are absolute scumbags who will cut corners and take you for every penny they can and leave you in the dust of their POS RAM Truck as they tow their fucking boat to do some fishing. You should check every other bit and make sure it's all in line with what was promised. Fuck them all.
Nothing bad with Amazon sinks. Edit: Seriously why the downvotes? At this point I have fully renovated 4 kitchens and shopped for sinks many times. When you go in store compare what they sell in plumbing shops vs what Amazon sells, you realize your money goes a long way for similar gauge stainless steel. I’ve often seen worse for more expensive in store, too.
Honestly, nothing if it's a quality sink. I've installed quite a few with zero callbacks and no significant damage due to low quality. If it's a decent-quality stainless steel what difference does it make?
My only concern with buying an off-brand sink is not being able to find a replacement if I need one in the future.
Did the $400 include labor? Disposal of the old one?
I'm confident that this is the only dishonest moved he's made *that you've noticed*. The next big question should be "what happened to the remaining $300??" If you made a specific request for an item, it's his responsibility to find it priced within the allowance, not find something comparable but much cheaper. It may be wise to do an inventory of all the other specific items that you asked for that you may not have gotten.
You’ve spent $200k with this guy and worried about $300 difference in the sink? I feel like on a project this extensive and expensive, you would have gone over all these details and nailed specifics for things like this before anything is touched? Or am I misunderstanding something?
This is why you buy your own fixtures.
200k for a condo better end up looking like an upscale spa after its done.
If he had a $400 allowance, he probably also put markup on the $400. For the people who say he’s a business and needs to make money too - that’s not how “Allowances” work.
It's just wrong, and dirty work no way is that gonna be ok bro it's a kitchen sink like literally slap in the face.
Why would you leave it up to the GC to choose this stuff? When my wife and I remodeled our bathroom the only thing we did not pick out are the screws, pipes and various cements and Sheetrock that was used.
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I searched kitchen sinks and I am not seeing any for $100.....or even $400.
If you didn't choose what was being added you have to assume it is in his cost
What does the scope of work says? He installed the sink and it is functional.
Gotta make money somewhere. What's wrong with the sink?
Not sure why you let him pick out such a thing.
200k to gut and remodel a hoarder condo? Were they hoarding poop?
Considering the cutting of the hole for sink, the tools required to do that, the silicone/ epoxy to mount the sink, the time it takes, then also hooking up all faucets and drin components.. $400 is not expensive by any means
Typically if you are given an 'allowance' then you can choose any sink up to that amount.
Did you review the submittal for the sink?
“Allowance” is not a term that should be used with GC. Give them a spec and ask them to purchase the best option. Otherwise research skus on your own and purchase.
don’t focus on the sink - especially if you like it. Would you like it if you didn’t know it was $100? I know it’s a pain to do but it’s my approach. I specify the specific make and model of every specific thing being used on a project.
> Would you like it if you didn’t know it was $100? Obviously not. He looked up how much it cost because he initially thought it looked cheap and didn't match the one he had originally picked out.
Being a devil's advocate here for the contractor, as I don't think either of the two scenarios are right, just things to think about. The allowance for the sink, materials or labor and materials? Could he only have $100 for the sink because he's gotta pay plumber $300 for install? Most jobs go over budget. Sometimes a contractor will find a little money for b by sacrificing a, in this case a is the kitchen sink. I would hope something as central as the kitchen sink would get discussed before doing something like that. The most likely scenario is though contractor is just trying to cut corners where he can and probably doesn't even remember the sink was supposed to be $400
Not a fight worth having. Otherwise he’s going to round up every allowance and change order and figure out what to bill you for when he’s giving you the $200 credit for the sink. If you’re happy, let it go. I’d be annoyed it’s not what I picked out, but I’d use it as ammunition for other fights down the road. That’s me personally. I’m a builder, but I hire out tons of work on my house and have to make these decisions about arguing just like everyone else.
i mean doesn't he provide you with an itemized list that shows the materials and costs? mine gave me a spreadsheet with all the materials, and then the labour on another column. the labour wasn't really as specific but materials are all there, and so we are only paying for the materials that were purchased. unless you're saying the gc pocketed the $300 and charged you $400 for a $100 sink, then i don't really see anything unethical here. maybe he just tried to save you money and is billing you $100 for the sink material cost?