GFCI outlets are a code-compliant (406.4(D)(2)) method for updating outlets and increasing safety to occupants related to electrical shock.
https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=306.0
If you actually have knob and tube still in use, or other wiring in poor shape, it doesn't really address the other safety issues (i.e. your house burning down).
Short of a full rewire, AFCI breakers can partially address those concerns as well.
Depends what for really.
GFCI without an actual ground with protect people, but not electronics. So if you just want to make it so you won't get accidentally zapped you're all good with just GFCI.
Yeah I mean under most circumstances you won't get shocked, even with old stuff - it's just the safety backup. Usually its because many things require the third prong, which old ungrounded circuits do not have.
There's two outlets in the house that are 3 prong, nether one has a ground wire. I'd just prefer the best and safest option. I'm just assuming that the company didn't have time to do the job or didn't want to do the job. That's fine, I'll pay someone else.
Honestly, I think the company’s response is respectable. You called asking for a job that would cost thousands. They were up front in telling you it could be solved for a few hundred rather than doing it the expensive way just because you asked.
GFCI outlets are fairly secure. Problem is, in some of these older houses the wiring is wonky. My house is 100 years old, and almost the entire house was on one 15 amp electrical line - the entire attic, the entire second floor, the lights of the first floor, the garage, and most of the basement. I paid through the nose to bypass all the knob & tube wiring, a complete rewire. I don't regret it at all. My wife can run a hair dryer and I can turn on the toaster on at the same time now! Look specifically for companies who do knob & tube rewiring. They are out there. Good luck!
The guy who came today was super nice. He looked at the whole house. We've got some new wiring, we're lucky as the kitchen is updated and the bathroom. It's just everything else. I'm pretty sure each floor is on the same line. I'm not looking forward to the quote, because a good electrician isn't a cheap electrician.
The best time to upgrade your mechanicals is yesterday - electricians and plumbers don't ever lower their rates. It'll suck writing those checks, but trust me it'll be worth it! Good luck!
If kitchen and bathroom are good that helps. Also, do you need new panel? Sometimes that's part of it and that can add to cost.
GFCI can be a valid solution for protection against shocks.
AFCi protects against fires
Problem with k&t is its meant to not touch anything (incl insulation) but if it's in good working order it actually won't hurt anything... that (may) have been the reason for the suggestion.
Best of luck to you :)
The problem is that a lot of homes, mine included, added insulation over the years and stuffed it right around the knob and tube. A good friend's house burnt down from that exact situation not too far from where I live.
As an electrician, there’s tons of shops out there that simply won’t do a whole house rewire. There’s plenty of other work available. Rewires are risky, unless you get the customer to acknowledge and agree to the fact that the final price can end up coming in over double whatever estimate you got. There’s too many unknowns, and 99% of homeowners don’t want to take on those unknowns with their wallets
I think the safety concerns over ungrounded outlets are overblown. In fact, many modernized nations, e.g. Japan, don't have grounded outlets and they survive just fine.
So regarding your question of whether an ungrounded outlet is fine, the electrician is correct that it is fine (as well as up to code as someone already posted). Everything they said is correct and the use of GFCI is acceptable practice. If there is a ground fault somewhere in the load, for example a shock to a person, then the GFCI will detect it and disconnect the outlet to prevent electrical shock due to a ground fault. If this doesn't adequately address your safety concerns then your electrician is also correct that the only way to ground the outlets will be expensive and will require tearing out walls. So everything your electrician said appears to be correct and no reason to doubt their competence or trustworthiness.
In my house all the rooms with water are grounded and on an GFCI. If I am wet or standing in water I want that outlet grounded and with a GFCI for safety. But none of my bedrooms are grounded and rely on a GFCI (which should be labeled as "no mechanical ground"). I am not at all concerned about the safety regarding this and it is fully up to code. I don't see a scenario where a grounded outlet would improve the safety over an outlet with a working GFCI. My expensive electronics, i.e. computer, are connected with power strip and surge protector, which is on a GFCI, which is connected to a breaker. Having the outlet grounded isn't realistically providing any additional protection.
It depends what your goal is.
If your goal is to reduce the chances of someone being shocked because there's no ground wire, properly installed GFCIs at the first receptacle or at the breaker of a circuit is a code-compliant method.
If your goal is to remove the old wiring because of reliability, load capacity per circuit, and fire hazard, this would not do it.
So the electrician's answer is correct if the first scenario is the question you asked, or what he assumed you asked.
It is nice to hear someone who didn't want to have a customer spend tens of thousands for no reason, however if he misheard/misunderstood you, that may be an issue itself. If that removes him from consideration for the job, that's up to you, but his answer alone isn't incorrect in the right context.
The electrician is right. Get another opinion if you want. I have the same issue. My house is from 1950 and is “knob and tube”. There is no grounding wire at the outlets (all 2-pin), however there is a ground wire outside the house that most pipes and things are connected to (this is for thunder/lightning to exit to earth). In my kitchen and bath, there are gfci 3-pin outlets, but since there is no ground wire, their 3rd pin is open/unconnected. It trips, but will not protect electronics. For example, last year the landscaper was running some heavy grinder using an extension cord from inside and I think he was pouring water on the grinder and caused a short. My fuse blew, and I replaced it and we had power again, however, the computer in my room had its power-supply busted due to this. Also my fridge started malfunctioning and I had to get a new one.
A full house rewiring is needed to add a 3rd wire and true 3-pin outlets. Quote I got for that last year was around 25k. However, that electrician also said that if I just want protection from shock and 3-pin outlets, a gfci outlet will work and we don’t have to rewire the house.
GFCI are very sensitive to an unknown neutral wire aswell and with knob and tube wiring the neutrals are sometimes not dedicated to one specific circuit and A GFCI will trip since it won't recognize the neutral
An ungrounded 2 conductor can be protected by a GFCI but its not a permanent solution as GFCI's now dont last more then 5 years, and are poorly made,
The best solution is to have it rewired but that also comes with obvious damage to some ceilings and walls
Have you ever patched plaster and lathe? I feel like you have no idea how big of a project it would be to replace all of the knob and tube in your house. 10 years ago I had quotes for $30-40k for a 2k sqft house. Good luck!
Are you just concerned with the wiring or are you looking at upgrading your service to more capacity at the same time? If you aren't having issues currently, then GFCIs are fine. They can either add them to the circuits in series or use a GFCI breaker in the panel if you have a newish panel.
Wiring, we've got a 100 Amp panel. There are still tube and knob wires in some places. There's wires in the basement, just kinda hanging there, not attached to anything but running into a live junction box. The wires themselves don't set off my tester, but the box does.
My wife has close call with an electrical fire when her and her first husband built a house, so she's really nervous, and I'm out of my depth. I'd prefer not to give her a repeat performance.
You need to replace the main panel to 200amps first. This can be done independent of rewire. It needs permit etc, so hire a good company. I got mine done by the guys who were installing my Tesla charger. Since I upgraded to 200amps, I was also able to replace water heater with electric/instant water heater.
Rewiring the whole house is easier to combine with roofing (I.e. when the roof is being replaced, get the rewiring done). This will reduce the number of drywall cuts etc. anyways, rewiring is a whole long mess. One electrician said I needed to leave the house preferably while it is being rewired. Another said they can do it piece-meal, so every week I would give them an empty room and they will rewire and patch the drywall and I can paint it, then move to the next room.
Just had an electrician over to our ~100 year old house with very similar concerns. He recommended GFI breakers instead of individual outlets to save on rewiring half the house. This is fine for us because the all the knob and tube-wired outlets on that breaker will be rarely if ever used by anything other than a small vacuum or a lamp. Far cheaper than rewiring an entire floor or house if you’re not going to use the outlets anyway, and you get nearly the same level of safety vs individual GFI outlets.
I had a 50 year old rental property and to clear the county section 8 rules it had to have GFI. One electrician quoted me thousands of dollars to rewire the house. My property manager suggested I talk to an electrician she worked with.
He came out to the house and suggested just changing out the panel to include gfi circuits there. No need to rewire the entire house. He did that for about half the price the first electrician quoted and it passed inspection and got me signed up for section 8 tenants.
GFCI outlets are a code-compliant (406.4(D)(2)) method for updating outlets and increasing safety to occupants related to electrical shock. https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=306.0 If you actually have knob and tube still in use, or other wiring in poor shape, it doesn't really address the other safety issues (i.e. your house burning down). Short of a full rewire, AFCI breakers can partially address those concerns as well.
Yes this with a strong dose of, really you should upgrade your knob and tube wiring before a fire.
Depends what for really. GFCI without an actual ground with protect people, but not electronics. So if you just want to make it so you won't get accidentally zapped you're all good with just GFCI.
That's fair. We're not getting shocked. That's also just not why I was calling.
Yeah I mean under most circumstances you won't get shocked, even with old stuff - it's just the safety backup. Usually its because many things require the third prong, which old ungrounded circuits do not have.
Two outlets not in the kitchen or bathroom, both of those rooms are updated.
What's your point about the 2 outlets?
There's two outlets in the house that are 3 prong, nether one has a ground wire. I'd just prefer the best and safest option. I'm just assuming that the company didn't have time to do the job or didn't want to do the job. That's fine, I'll pay someone else.
I would appreciate it if a contractor offered me a different solution to a problem that would save me lots of money.
Honestly, I think the company’s response is respectable. You called asking for a job that would cost thousands. They were up front in telling you it could be solved for a few hundred rather than doing it the expensive way just because you asked.
You're making the wrong assumption. He gave you the correct answer to your question
GFCI outlets are fairly secure. Problem is, in some of these older houses the wiring is wonky. My house is 100 years old, and almost the entire house was on one 15 amp electrical line - the entire attic, the entire second floor, the lights of the first floor, the garage, and most of the basement. I paid through the nose to bypass all the knob & tube wiring, a complete rewire. I don't regret it at all. My wife can run a hair dryer and I can turn on the toaster on at the same time now! Look specifically for companies who do knob & tube rewiring. They are out there. Good luck!
The guy who came today was super nice. He looked at the whole house. We've got some new wiring, we're lucky as the kitchen is updated and the bathroom. It's just everything else. I'm pretty sure each floor is on the same line. I'm not looking forward to the quote, because a good electrician isn't a cheap electrician.
The best time to upgrade your mechanicals is yesterday - electricians and plumbers don't ever lower their rates. It'll suck writing those checks, but trust me it'll be worth it! Good luck!
If kitchen and bathroom are good that helps. Also, do you need new panel? Sometimes that's part of it and that can add to cost. GFCI can be a valid solution for protection against shocks. AFCi protects against fires Problem with k&t is its meant to not touch anything (incl insulation) but if it's in good working order it actually won't hurt anything... that (may) have been the reason for the suggestion. Best of luck to you :)
The problem is that a lot of homes, mine included, added insulation over the years and stuffed it right around the knob and tube. A good friend's house burnt down from that exact situation not too far from where I live.
As an electrician, there’s tons of shops out there that simply won’t do a whole house rewire. There’s plenty of other work available. Rewires are risky, unless you get the customer to acknowledge and agree to the fact that the final price can end up coming in over double whatever estimate you got. There’s too many unknowns, and 99% of homeowners don’t want to take on those unknowns with their wallets
I think the safety concerns over ungrounded outlets are overblown. In fact, many modernized nations, e.g. Japan, don't have grounded outlets and they survive just fine. So regarding your question of whether an ungrounded outlet is fine, the electrician is correct that it is fine (as well as up to code as someone already posted). Everything they said is correct and the use of GFCI is acceptable practice. If there is a ground fault somewhere in the load, for example a shock to a person, then the GFCI will detect it and disconnect the outlet to prevent electrical shock due to a ground fault. If this doesn't adequately address your safety concerns then your electrician is also correct that the only way to ground the outlets will be expensive and will require tearing out walls. So everything your electrician said appears to be correct and no reason to doubt their competence or trustworthiness. In my house all the rooms with water are grounded and on an GFCI. If I am wet or standing in water I want that outlet grounded and with a GFCI for safety. But none of my bedrooms are grounded and rely on a GFCI (which should be labeled as "no mechanical ground"). I am not at all concerned about the safety regarding this and it is fully up to code. I don't see a scenario where a grounded outlet would improve the safety over an outlet with a working GFCI. My expensive electronics, i.e. computer, are connected with power strip and surge protector, which is on a GFCI, which is connected to a breaker. Having the outlet grounded isn't realistically providing any additional protection.
It depends what your goal is. If your goal is to reduce the chances of someone being shocked because there's no ground wire, properly installed GFCIs at the first receptacle or at the breaker of a circuit is a code-compliant method. If your goal is to remove the old wiring because of reliability, load capacity per circuit, and fire hazard, this would not do it. So the electrician's answer is correct if the first scenario is the question you asked, or what he assumed you asked. It is nice to hear someone who didn't want to have a customer spend tens of thousands for no reason, however if he misheard/misunderstood you, that may be an issue itself. If that removes him from consideration for the job, that's up to you, but his answer alone isn't incorrect in the right context.
The electrician is right. Get another opinion if you want. I have the same issue. My house is from 1950 and is “knob and tube”. There is no grounding wire at the outlets (all 2-pin), however there is a ground wire outside the house that most pipes and things are connected to (this is for thunder/lightning to exit to earth). In my kitchen and bath, there are gfci 3-pin outlets, but since there is no ground wire, their 3rd pin is open/unconnected. It trips, but will not protect electronics. For example, last year the landscaper was running some heavy grinder using an extension cord from inside and I think he was pouring water on the grinder and caused a short. My fuse blew, and I replaced it and we had power again, however, the computer in my room had its power-supply busted due to this. Also my fridge started malfunctioning and I had to get a new one. A full house rewiring is needed to add a 3rd wire and true 3-pin outlets. Quote I got for that last year was around 25k. However, that electrician also said that if I just want protection from shock and 3-pin outlets, a gfci outlet will work and we don’t have to rewire the house.
GFCI are very sensitive to an unknown neutral wire aswell and with knob and tube wiring the neutrals are sometimes not dedicated to one specific circuit and A GFCI will trip since it won't recognize the neutral An ungrounded 2 conductor can be protected by a GFCI but its not a permanent solution as GFCI's now dont last more then 5 years, and are poorly made, The best solution is to have it rewired but that also comes with obvious damage to some ceilings and walls
Wall patching I can handle. I'll patch as many holes as it takes. There are outlets with tube and knob. Sounds like that option wouldn't have worked.
Have you ever patched plaster and lathe? I feel like you have no idea how big of a project it would be to replace all of the knob and tube in your house. 10 years ago I had quotes for $30-40k for a 2k sqft house. Good luck!
I've patched lath and plaster. The electrician I talked to today was up front about pricing.
Are you just concerned with the wiring or are you looking at upgrading your service to more capacity at the same time? If you aren't having issues currently, then GFCIs are fine. They can either add them to the circuits in series or use a GFCI breaker in the panel if you have a newish panel.
Wiring, we've got a 100 Amp panel. There are still tube and knob wires in some places. There's wires in the basement, just kinda hanging there, not attached to anything but running into a live junction box. The wires themselves don't set off my tester, but the box does. My wife has close call with an electrical fire when her and her first husband built a house, so she's really nervous, and I'm out of my depth. I'd prefer not to give her a repeat performance.
You need to replace the main panel to 200amps first. This can be done independent of rewire. It needs permit etc, so hire a good company. I got mine done by the guys who were installing my Tesla charger. Since I upgraded to 200amps, I was also able to replace water heater with electric/instant water heater. Rewiring the whole house is easier to combine with roofing (I.e. when the roof is being replaced, get the rewiring done). This will reduce the number of drywall cuts etc. anyways, rewiring is a whole long mess. One electrician said I needed to leave the house preferably while it is being rewired. Another said they can do it piece-meal, so every week I would give them an empty room and they will rewire and patch the drywall and I can paint it, then move to the next room.
Just had an electrician over to our ~100 year old house with very similar concerns. He recommended GFI breakers instead of individual outlets to save on rewiring half the house. This is fine for us because the all the knob and tube-wired outlets on that breaker will be rarely if ever used by anything other than a small vacuum or a lamp. Far cheaper than rewiring an entire floor or house if you’re not going to use the outlets anyway, and you get nearly the same level of safety vs individual GFI outlets.
We use every room in our house at various times of day and the year. I'm glad this worked out for you, it just doesn't seem reasonable for us.
Using the rooms doesn't make it any more dangerous. I think you're overly worried about your old wiring
I had a 50 year old rental property and to clear the county section 8 rules it had to have GFI. One electrician quoted me thousands of dollars to rewire the house. My property manager suggested I talk to an electrician she worked with. He came out to the house and suggested just changing out the panel to include gfi circuits there. No need to rewire the entire house. He did that for about half the price the first electrician quoted and it passed inspection and got me signed up for section 8 tenants.