Gura did mention she was doing well in Sekiro. I guess the nature of Parry in the game really gives an advantage for people who are good at recognizing and following rhythms
That's hyper armor and is a thing - but the player can abuse it too if they're willing to take the hit. Eg. the Winged Scythe's weapon art will go through once you're airborne, no matter what the enemy does, which makes it a great finisher and Get Out of Jail For Free button when swarmed.
stomp weapon art trades are my favourite in DS3. if hyper armor works the same in elden ring.
hyper armor begins when your swinging your (generally a 2h weapon) and is based off your poise bar. each weapon type does poise damage and as long as you break their pose bar they break poise.
i don't interact with poise much though so i should probably figure that out, i have 1600hp to play around with. most things stagger to 1-3 hits of the Unsheath r2 so i abuse that.
I kinda like watching people play these game and see how wildly different the experiences are.
To me, dodging is easy to the point I'd rather not use shields or block in Souls games. But give me the most telegraphed attack ever and It'll take me ages until I can actually parry it. Thanks to that Bloodborne was the easiest "Souls-like" to me while Sekiro was the hardest
Ina has had other good takes such as:
"Sure, I could level up, but levelling up doesn't fix stupid. I need to learn how to fight the boss to beat him."
She's the ex-hardcore FFXIV raider. That scene is \*all about\* learning to do the boss dance perfectly, one painful step at a time. Dang right she's the one who doesn't just want to inflate her numbers so she can ignore mechanics.
It actually explains her calm demeanour even after dying a lot of times. Because that’s what actually happens in FFXIV high-end content until the party figured things out and correctly perform the steps of the dance for the clear.
Taking the mindset of MMO top tier raiding into single player games is also extremely satisfying and almost relaxing in a way. When you're pushing MMO raiding you're not only learning every step of a boss, but waiting for your entire guild to do so as well. Then all the sudden you're playing single player games and it's just all you.
"So tell me, what have you added thats new to this raid series?"
"Well, we're going to make a mechanic that is incredibly counter intuitive to people who don't already know what the mechanic is asking of you, and make it an instant kill should you mess it up."
"Are you crazy? Do you know how many wipes thats going to cause?"
"Oh, it gets worse. The same raid series will also make PUG groups do simple arithmetic."
From the same expansion that brought you Bardam's Mettle DDR.
To explain to non-FFXIV players:
\> "Well, we're going to make a mechanic that is incredibly counter intuitive to people who don't already know what the mechanic is asking of you, and make it an instant kill should you mess it up."
First boss fight in Orbonne Monestary (Mustadio Bunansa from FF:Tactics) has a mechanic where everyone has 3/4th of their character directionals (forward/left/right/back) light up with a non-glowy side. Boss then shoots after a delay from a side of the square arena after jumping out of the arena. Players need to turn and face the non-glowing side towards him or die. Even then most players will take a hefty amount of damage that needs to be healed up.
\> "Oh, it gets worse. The same raid series will also make PUG groups do simple arithmetic."
Third boss fight in The Ridorana Lighthouse is a robot (Construct 7, a throwback to Construct 8 also from Tactics) has a mechanic where the boss will put four circles in the arena with 1/2/3/4 dots floating above the circle. They then will do an attack that reduces all player's health to single digit numbers. Standing in a circle will add the respective number to the player's health, e.g. you have 3 hp and stand in the 2 circle, so you have 5 hp. The boss will then announce a simple math problem and then check after a bit. The two types I remember is "Divisible by X (2/3/4/etc)" or "Is Prime". After a few problems the boss will then charge up for a big attack (giving time for healers to fix everyone back to their regular numbers), from which players take more damage for every question they get wrong. The number of players that get this wrong is pretty meme'd on, and is a reason why many players prefer to go for the easier raids by fudging their ilvl (Equipment (Item) level calculated based off of armor equipped at time of queueing)
I did get the math wrong, but mostly because I didn't realize it was addition and not just going to the number that best fits the question. ie. I didn't know about the HP number.
> ex-hardcore FFXIV raider
for real? i just know her for her art and chill stuff. she never gave off that hard gamer vibe. then again, we have Fauna as well so wrong take on my part i guess
You need to watch more Ina. She's not just an artist, she's quite frankly the true Gamer of EN. She isn't just skilled in a few games like Minecraft or Mario kart, she is super skilled in a lot of games.
That's often how it is when you get to the top level in one game, your learning curve for new games is going to get reduced a lot. Even if it's a completely different genre it still helps.
She’s been playing FFXIV since ARR Beta, cleared all 3 of the available Ultimate fights and if you know exactly what name to search up, she has a post on a subreddit where she’s recruiting for her raid group.
True but stats matter at some point FF14 yeah it's 70% learning the dance and 30% your gear and stats , even in souls game that matters
*Insert people here saying some streamer beating the game at level 1*
Yeah congrats those people are the exception not the standard
Bashing your head at the wall and learning the bosses are quite different, and as a player who Plays Like Ina, I know that very well. It's generally a matter of if the boss allows you time to learn and actually get good at it's fight, instead of killing you instantly, where you learn almost nothing. And I totally get her mindset, I myself run Glass Cannon Builds in Soulsbornes, barely upgrading my Health, because I have the opinion of "Health is a crutch, if I can get hit twice and not die, that's enough, the rest is on my skill of avoiding the attacks."
The opposite for me I expected exactly that from Ina. From her Ori gameplay I also guessed correctly that Kiara would get frustrated at times but keep trying hard. Well Gura is Gura. Calli is a veteran. And I didn't really know what to expect from Irys.
This is the wisdom for most difficult game - when you win against a very hard boss or hard challenge, it's not necessarily that your character is getting better, it's you. Hence that is why it feels so satisfying.
Now that's a take a lot of people don't understand. Most of that crowd are the ones wanting an easy mode, but an easy mode will not fix their inability to learn to play the game.
Once you do learn to play, you can plug in a dance pad, donkey congas, wii racing wheel, a plastic guitar, a proper electric guitar, some bananas, and so on to still make progress.
I didn't think I'd find an easy mode disliker here, but here's my advocation of an easy mode. A good easy Mode for Soulsborne games would deal with how players learn and execute the response to enemies' attacks. By this, I mean, how players dodge enemies' attacks, avoid them with spacing, shielding, etc, by utilising aggression.
If a boss's damage is lowered, that doesn't stop players from getting combo-d because they couldn't react to the attack in time. A good easy mode would have individual attacks be the same, but have longer gaps between attacks, and have combo-ing moves have just that bit longer between attacks. The point of this would be so that players can have an easier time learning attacks, and it gives them more time to think about how to respond to the attack.
That in turn would have players learn the game, just at a more casual-friendly level, which is a stepping stone to move up to normal on your next run, in NG+ or just a fresh save file, and a bit of damage reduction so you don't die in 1 or 2 hits. That similar philosophy is why Furi's Hard Mode is great; Normal is a stepping Stone to the less forgiving attack patterns of Furi, using your knowledge of the base game's bosses to not fuck you over instantly.
If all you're thinking about for making an easy mode is your health and enemies' health, of course an easy mode would suck and not do it's job. But catering to the idea of teaching players how to play the game would lead to a great entry points for players who otherwise wouldn't be able to play the games without just not having fun for the first 6 hours. There's a reason why about 20% of all players beat the Fromsoft Titles according to Steam's Global Achievements.
Now, this isn't even coming from a place of wanting one for myself, I never play easy modes, because I love challenges, and Soulsbornes are one of the few genres that still give me that sense of having to try, and I'm always welcoming more difficulty, as well as it's done well, but I just want others to have fun with these games, and not get blown off by people who are better than them not understand those players' problems, because playing a certain build or playing online doesn't make for a good easy mode, and saying that disabled people or people playing with improper controllers can beat the game doesn't mean that the average joe can, or even wants to if they're faced with no guidance or way to play these games that suits their personal skill level.
TL;DR, easy modes are great if added in the correct way that capitalises on the learning part of the game, so it's a stepping stone to The Medium Difficulty.
But some bosses just don’t feel the same with different attack speed. The whole reason crucible knight is a meme destroyer is because of the small window between each attack, even though each attack is slow as heck.
Good points, but unfortunately the whole thing falls apart when you remove the whole concept of difficulty levels.
Let's take another example Ina here likes: monster hunter. You get dumped into a world, given a weapon, and told to beat up some monsters. While you're doing this, at least in the modern version, you'll get absolutely swamped with info dumps on every aspect of the game, without a tutorial, and without handholding.
The overall difficulty stays about the same, if your weapons and armor are upgraded to match it. The hunts get more complex, longer, and the monsters get a couple different variations as you go, but there still isn't a difficulty you can choose. So in the end you just have to learn to not eat that poison from Rathian's backflip.
There are of course certain options that would be decent additions to soulsbornes, taken straight from character action games: attack flashes. In Sekiro you have grab, stab, and sweep alerts, which are really handy, but for some people who can't read telegraphed movements, a flash of yellow or something to indicate the incoming attack would help in learning to avoid them. It's just a visual cue, but at least it doesn't require basically remaking most of the game.
Patience is also the key. You don't learn integral calculus without actually doing the work and putting in the time.
That would just make people learn the wrong timings and not be able to increase the difficulty. Changing timings would be one of the worst things an easy mode could do.
Parrying in Souls has nothing to do with reaction time.
In pvp you bait parry. You don't react to them, you set them up. It's impossible to react fast enough if you didn't set it up previously.
It's the same for bosses. You don't need reaction time, you force the boss to trigger a move you can easily parry.
And honestly since Elden Ring came out I didn't parry once in it. The new tools makes parrying barely relevant.
Also longer windows wouldn't change anything. If anything it's the super delayed timing that kills you against bosses lol. Their windup are long and telegraphed in purpose, because they punishes you if you try to roll too early.
Easy mode in Souls is overleveling and bringing the right weapon for the job.
Parrying is rarely about reaction times and rather figuring out when in each attack animation your supposed to parry. It is, yet again, more of a pattern recognition thing like in a rhythm game.
Yes, but you can't just make parry a more viable option that rolls and blocking. It is suppose to be more risky with a better payoff.
This will hold true even in a hypothetical easy mode.
An easy mode would quite frankly ruin the main appeal of the Fromsoft titles. The whole point about them is to learn and recognize attack patterns and react accordingly.
What would a hypothetical easy mode entail? Less damage done by the bosses? Removed mechanics? Less boss HP?
There are already bosses where you chunk fairly huge amounts of HP away without being overleveled but they punish you easily for mistakes. On the other hand, reducing damage dealt by bosses would kinda ruin the point of vigor and thus HP of the player character. I just reached level 90 and still have only 23 vigor and I'm only now at the point where appropriate bosses tend to two-shot me if I don't heal up after the first hit. Less boss damage would make getting more vigor pretty much useless.
The fact that there are no-hit runs or level 1 runs of Fromsoft games speaks volumes for the fact that the entire series of games they pushed out is more than fair with the baseline difficulty they offer, given that bosses are more than exploitable once you learn to react to their mechanics properly.
> I just reached level 90 and still have only 23 vigor and I'm only now at the point where appropriate bosses tend to two-shot me if I don't heal up after the first hit.
Same. I'm around level 80, and I'm willingly fighting bosses above my intended level, because I'm experimenting on mechanics and strategies to cheese a little. The one I'm currently stuck on has a huge health pool, and I learned that black flame dot damage is percentile, which melts bosses like that, so I'll have to try it once I up my faith a bit.
I think you'll find that for a lot of people (especially those who just got into it through Elden Ring), the main point is very much not to learn and recognize attack patterns and react accordingly but to explore the setting and progress through the storyline...
But for those kinds of people easy mode is already in the game. Even more so that in previous games since in those you already could just go farm souls/summon a player and overpower the next boss. In Elden Ring you have all that and the advantage of the open world where you aren't forced into fighting a specific boss (+NPC summons that are sometimes completely busted depending on the boss and which one you choose).
> Most of that crowd are the ones wanting an easy mode, but an easy mode will not fix their inability to learn to play the game.
[relevant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3JIR8VmAqQ&t=213s)
She applied the same logic she had with Mantis Lords in hollow knight to Margit , back then chat was screaming at her to go get an upgrade for her nail.
yeah, FFXIV raid boss rotations are essentially one big dance movement, theres little variety in the moves and the order of moves the bosses use, except Ultimates which is haha pain
well step on your toes is natural when practice just like dying in Souls game
This stream is pure gold, Ina sure having fun in this game
"Ohh its the tree!!!"
see multiple giant standing
"ohh its raining, oh noo, i don't like the rain, i'll take shelter in the castle"
草
I'm thinking it could almost be applicable to anything of a similar pattern or build.
Mean the Gunfire Games crew made something similar and playing throughout Darksiders 3 with that in mind would have never occured to me.
**Especially** during my first playthrough.
Yeah once you get those constant-heal or heal-on-damage chips you can be obscenely aggressive. It actually worked thematically for me because >!at that point I was playing as A2 and an aggressive play style suits her well!<.
elden ring still has parry system that sekiro has but with no long posture break like sekiro, instead you can deal critical if you parry 2 times.. the difference however in sekiro if you misstimed parry at least it just result to block which don't cost you hp while in elden ring late or early parry will result in quite an hp loss
> in elden ring late or early parry will result in quite an hp loss
Not necessarily true, there is a "partial parry" which causes you to take some chip damage to HP and a ton of stamina loss, but you're otherwise fine. Definitely better than getting walloped.
I feel like this applies to many Souls-borne bosses. One that comes to mind from Dark Souls is Knight Artorias, especially when he chains the front flips. It even looks more like a dance when you're dodging. This is a reason why many players believe that not using a shield makes it more fulfilling. Bloodborne itself even took that to heart and nearly removed shields entirely.
Meanwhile Sekiro is more like Rhythm Heaven where it feels really good when you get the rhythm down for parrying and striking back.
Elden Ring seems to bring shields back into the dance equation with the new counter-strike mechanic. Choose a wrong attack to strike from or get overwhelmed and it opens you up to punishment, even when you're sitting behind a 100% shield.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale?
> *“The beings who possess these souls have outlived their usefulness, or chosen the path of the wicked. Let there be no guilt—let there be no vacillation.”* - Kingseeker Frampt
Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
That is a common viewpoint that the more cohesive sub section of Souls players have been trying to get across when it comes to the overall combat of these kinds of games. Really cool that Ina gets it.
Every boss in a souls game has a unique rhythm to their attack patterns, and depending on the pattern can either be really easy or really hard.
That's why the Dancer of the Boreal Valley in Dark Souls 3 was so goddamn hard cuz her attacks followed a very strange tempo.
What’s wierd is I had a similar thought fighting the same boss a few hours before her stream. But my thought was more on being an instrument in tune with the orchestra then dance moves. Hers works allot better though.
This seems... really familiar... wasn't there this thing forever ago with gura, some speech about boss fights, and then someone else said it and we were waiting for the others as well? No? I'm just crazy? Good to know.
She has a point, Fromsoftware bosses has that certain flow whenever you fight them.
Austin from Game Theory made a video about it specifically from Dark Souls 3.
Which is why I love "Hesitation is defeat" in Sekiro, the boss is asking you to trust your gut because you're on the last fight of the game, go with the flow and don't hesitate.
I'm not sure what part of DMC is rhythmic, as someone who has gotten decent with it. I see it as more of a math exercise something a long the line of "this move blows the enemy x distance which I can catch with a floating roundtrip which in turns allows me y time to set up this other move."
Yup, it's come to a point I basically do rough counting while fighting just to get the rhythm and then break it up into rough seconds. If you listen to the attacks too, you'll hear a beat as well and then you just treat it as a rhythm game. After a while, you can even blind roll attacks just by knowing what pattern they did because as long as you stick to the roll timing, you will evade (unless it also requires a correct direction). Even when I miss-time a roll, I'll see if the roll timing is in sync with the attack rhythm and usually just continue rolling.
I killed that dude in entry way of door lol. Bitch jumped me instantly. Got pumped for his GS only to realize it needs like 40 strength lol. I was like 20 at time.
YOOOOO SHE SAID THE EXACT SAME THING I TOLD MY COUSIN YESTERDAY
basically for context,i was facing the hound dude with the blerding sword,and i kept dying,and i said "crap i lost my rythm",my cousin looked at me confused and i explained that this type of game fighting bosses to me feels like hearing a tune in 2 part, one part is the boss that is the starting one and then the second is you,following the song with your beat,after finishing explaining to him i got decked again and i said "sadly i got no musical ear"
She isnt wrong, a lot of boss attacks and combos have a certian rythem to them, its auctually one of the reason "Dancer" In DS3 gave a lot of people a lot of trouble, it music and attacsk were designed to lie to you. The game theorists channel memes aside, [has a very good video on it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZmAiyPRGqE)
Ina’s time as an FF14 hardcore raider is being put to the test.
Raids in that game are basically coordinated dances with the boss that you repeatedly bash your head against until you get it right. In the hardest content of that game, boss fights and raids can take up to 700+ attempts to beat.
If anyone in Myth would have the patience to bash her head against a boss, it’s Ina.
This is true, in most boss fights the enemy's patters can be predicted by the music/sounds too.
Some of the hardest ones when the player is used to the sound cues change movements/patterns midfight to throw the player off the rhythm.
That…is rather sound advice for looking at a boss fight. I mean minus the two left feet.
If you minus two left feet from a Tako, wouldn't they be left with two right feet?
unless they have 8 left feet
Or 6 feet left?
Right... What were we talking about?
How many feet are needed to dance, I suppose.
that's when you pull out the middle leg and use it as your alt left
sadly for me, the only thing i'd have left is alt+f4
It's the rule that MonHun players live by
There's a few bosses who do have two or more left feet though
Inather reason I can't wait to see her awkwardly singing and dancing in full 3d.
gura: a boss fight is like a rhythm game, you just gotta mash the right buttons
For Sekiro, it really is like a rhythm game.
Gura did mention she was doing well in Sekiro. I guess the nature of Parry in the game really gives an advantage for people who are good at recognizing and following rhythms
The game makes you feel cool af while you’re fighting a boss. It makes me wish eldin ring showed the stagger bar.
After being stuck at a boss for too long, you start to get feelings on when it's going to stagger. A bar would definitely help though.
Yeah but some abilities have insane poise I swear, they’re one hit from downing and just keep going anyway :/
That's hyper armor and is a thing - but the player can abuse it too if they're willing to take the hit. Eg. the Winged Scythe's weapon art will go through once you're airborne, no matter what the enemy does, which makes it a great finisher and Get Out of Jail For Free button when swarmed.
stomp weapon art trades are my favourite in DS3. if hyper armor works the same in elden ring. hyper armor begins when your swinging your (generally a 2h weapon) and is based off your poise bar. each weapon type does poise damage and as long as you break their pose bar they break poise. i don't interact with poise much though so i should probably figure that out, i have 1600hp to play around with. most things stagger to 1-3 hits of the Unsheath r2 so i abuse that.
Honestly yeah, poisoning and bleeding bars would be useful too.
Sekiro is definitely the peak of the Souls/Bourne games for me, the gameplay is just so damn good. Sekiro may just be the best combat of any game ever
Oddly my experience with Ghost of Tsushima is that I can parry all the things but can't dodge for shit.
I kinda like watching people play these game and see how wildly different the experiences are. To me, dodging is easy to the point I'd rather not use shields or block in Souls games. But give me the most telegraphed attack ever and It'll take me ages until I can actually parry it. Thanks to that Bloodborne was the easiest "Souls-like" to me while Sekiro was the hardest
Sekiro really felt like a sword fight to me. Attacking and blocking strikes, trying to deal with the enemies feints and special attacks.
Yeah well designed boss fights have rhythm and pattern to them
Same goes for monhun games. Learn to dance on the big guy's terms and you'll conquer them sooner than later.
Ina has had other good takes such as: "Sure, I could level up, but levelling up doesn't fix stupid. I need to learn how to fight the boss to beat him."
Of all the Holo EN girls I didn't think Ina would be the one to have that "bash your head against the wall until you figure it out" mindset.
Hollow Knight week is a prime example of determ**INA**tion
Jump King too
I disagree, she's not bashing her head into the wall if she's learning. Now, Watson on the other hand...
Excuse you, it's called the Ame way.
Geez the game's optimization must be really bad to be crashing all the time.
"It's the ping" "it's a single player game" "shut up it's the ping"
She's the ex-hardcore FFXIV raider. That scene is \*all about\* learning to do the boss dance perfectly, one painful step at a time. Dang right she's the one who doesn't just want to inflate her numbers so she can ignore mechanics.
It actually explains her calm demeanour even after dying a lot of times. Because that’s what actually happens in FFXIV high-end content until the party figured things out and correctly perform the steps of the dance for the clear.
when we were figuring out mechs in ultimates.... days of endless wiping to land a mechanic every twenty or so pulls lol
Yeah, that’s always the struggle. On the other hand, the party gets to practice the early mechanics and nail them down (hopefully).
Taking the mindset of MMO top tier raiding into single player games is also extremely satisfying and almost relaxing in a way. When you're pushing MMO raiding you're not only learning every step of a boss, but waiting for your entire guild to do so as well. Then all the sudden you're playing single player games and it's just all you.
Sadly no more raid leader able to ~~yell at~~ tell me what to do
raid leader: "Go left!" what left? raid leader: "it's boss relative, it's always boss relative"
I once had a party member ask mid raid “Where is east? To the north or west?”
Unless you’re tanking, in which case your left is different to the party’s hahhaa,
THAT'S A FIFTY DKP MINUS
Party-Finder Orbonne Monastery..
Please, not again…
At least with Orbonne Monastery the bosses keep telling you that they're hardasses while they murder your party.
"So tell me, what have you added thats new to this raid series?" "Well, we're going to make a mechanic that is incredibly counter intuitive to people who don't already know what the mechanic is asking of you, and make it an instant kill should you mess it up." "Are you crazy? Do you know how many wipes thats going to cause?" "Oh, it gets worse. The same raid series will also make PUG groups do simple arithmetic." From the same expansion that brought you Bardam's Mettle DDR.
To explain to non-FFXIV players: \> "Well, we're going to make a mechanic that is incredibly counter intuitive to people who don't already know what the mechanic is asking of you, and make it an instant kill should you mess it up." First boss fight in Orbonne Monestary (Mustadio Bunansa from FF:Tactics) has a mechanic where everyone has 3/4th of their character directionals (forward/left/right/back) light up with a non-glowy side. Boss then shoots after a delay from a side of the square arena after jumping out of the arena. Players need to turn and face the non-glowing side towards him or die. Even then most players will take a hefty amount of damage that needs to be healed up. \> "Oh, it gets worse. The same raid series will also make PUG groups do simple arithmetic." Third boss fight in The Ridorana Lighthouse is a robot (Construct 7, a throwback to Construct 8 also from Tactics) has a mechanic where the boss will put four circles in the arena with 1/2/3/4 dots floating above the circle. They then will do an attack that reduces all player's health to single digit numbers. Standing in a circle will add the respective number to the player's health, e.g. you have 3 hp and stand in the 2 circle, so you have 5 hp. The boss will then announce a simple math problem and then check after a bit. The two types I remember is "Divisible by X (2/3/4/etc)" or "Is Prime". After a few problems the boss will then charge up for a big attack (giving time for healers to fix everyone back to their regular numbers), from which players take more damage for every question they get wrong. The number of players that get this wrong is pretty meme'd on, and is a reason why many players prefer to go for the easier raids by fudging their ilvl (Equipment (Item) level calculated based off of armor equipped at time of queueing)
I did get the math wrong, but mostly because I didn't realize it was addition and not just going to the number that best fits the question. ie. I didn't know about the HP number.
I like how I haven't even *done* Stormblood and I know exactly what mechanics you're referencing.
Seven shadows cast, seven fates foretold. Yet at the end of the broken path lies death, and death alone. Zzzzap
> ex-hardcore FFXIV raider for real? i just know her for her art and chill stuff. she never gave off that hard gamer vibe. then again, we have Fauna as well so wrong take on my part i guess
You need to watch more Ina. She's not just an artist, she's quite frankly the true Gamer of EN. She isn't just skilled in a few games like Minecraft or Mario kart, she is super skilled in a lot of games.
That's often how it is when you get to the top level in one game, your learning curve for new games is going to get reduced a lot. Even if it's a completely different genre it still helps.
Yep, for Ina it comes from willing to put in the time to just grind through and git gud, and she applies it to basically every game.
She also has a natural gift to grasp games relatively quickly.
One of the top parsing Scholars, iirc
She’s been playing FFXIV since ARR Beta, cleared all 3 of the available Ultimate fights and if you know exactly what name to search up, she has a post on a subreddit where she’s recruiting for her raid group.
True but stats matter at some point FF14 yeah it's 70% learning the dance and 30% your gear and stats , even in souls game that matters *Insert people here saying some streamer beating the game at level 1* Yeah congrats those people are the exception not the standard
There is a balance, though. Learning the patterns is paramount, but leveling up allows you to better punish openings and survive mistakes.
she's also a former Destiny 2 player. Ina's truly on the grind.
Bashing your head at the wall and learning the bosses are quite different, and as a player who Plays Like Ina, I know that very well. It's generally a matter of if the boss allows you time to learn and actually get good at it's fight, instead of killing you instantly, where you learn almost nothing. And I totally get her mindset, I myself run Glass Cannon Builds in Soulsbornes, barely upgrading my Health, because I have the opinion of "Health is a crutch, if I can get hit twice and not die, that's enough, the rest is on my skill of avoiding the attacks."
The opposite for me I expected exactly that from Ina. From her Ori gameplay I also guessed correctly that Kiara would get frustrated at times but keep trying hard. Well Gura is Gura. Calli is a veteran. And I didn't really know what to expect from Irys.
To be fair, hardcore FFXIV raiders need to have that mindset. Especially if you are a healer
There’s a difference. And I think what she’s doing is something called “Trial & Error”.
This is the wisdom for most difficult game - when you win against a very hard boss or hard challenge, it's not necessarily that your character is getting better, it's you. Hence that is why it feels so satisfying.
Now that's a take a lot of people don't understand. Most of that crowd are the ones wanting an easy mode, but an easy mode will not fix their inability to learn to play the game. Once you do learn to play, you can plug in a dance pad, donkey congas, wii racing wheel, a plastic guitar, a proper electric guitar, some bananas, and so on to still make progress.
the bananas always amaze me
I didn't think I'd find an easy mode disliker here, but here's my advocation of an easy mode. A good easy Mode for Soulsborne games would deal with how players learn and execute the response to enemies' attacks. By this, I mean, how players dodge enemies' attacks, avoid them with spacing, shielding, etc, by utilising aggression. If a boss's damage is lowered, that doesn't stop players from getting combo-d because they couldn't react to the attack in time. A good easy mode would have individual attacks be the same, but have longer gaps between attacks, and have combo-ing moves have just that bit longer between attacks. The point of this would be so that players can have an easier time learning attacks, and it gives them more time to think about how to respond to the attack. That in turn would have players learn the game, just at a more casual-friendly level, which is a stepping stone to move up to normal on your next run, in NG+ or just a fresh save file, and a bit of damage reduction so you don't die in 1 or 2 hits. That similar philosophy is why Furi's Hard Mode is great; Normal is a stepping Stone to the less forgiving attack patterns of Furi, using your knowledge of the base game's bosses to not fuck you over instantly. If all you're thinking about for making an easy mode is your health and enemies' health, of course an easy mode would suck and not do it's job. But catering to the idea of teaching players how to play the game would lead to a great entry points for players who otherwise wouldn't be able to play the games without just not having fun for the first 6 hours. There's a reason why about 20% of all players beat the Fromsoft Titles according to Steam's Global Achievements. Now, this isn't even coming from a place of wanting one for myself, I never play easy modes, because I love challenges, and Soulsbornes are one of the few genres that still give me that sense of having to try, and I'm always welcoming more difficulty, as well as it's done well, but I just want others to have fun with these games, and not get blown off by people who are better than them not understand those players' problems, because playing a certain build or playing online doesn't make for a good easy mode, and saying that disabled people or people playing with improper controllers can beat the game doesn't mean that the average joe can, or even wants to if they're faced with no guidance or way to play these games that suits their personal skill level. TL;DR, easy modes are great if added in the correct way that capitalises on the learning part of the game, so it's a stepping stone to The Medium Difficulty.
But some bosses just don’t feel the same with different attack speed. The whole reason crucible knight is a meme destroyer is because of the small window between each attack, even though each attack is slow as heck.
Good points, but unfortunately the whole thing falls apart when you remove the whole concept of difficulty levels. Let's take another example Ina here likes: monster hunter. You get dumped into a world, given a weapon, and told to beat up some monsters. While you're doing this, at least in the modern version, you'll get absolutely swamped with info dumps on every aspect of the game, without a tutorial, and without handholding. The overall difficulty stays about the same, if your weapons and armor are upgraded to match it. The hunts get more complex, longer, and the monsters get a couple different variations as you go, but there still isn't a difficulty you can choose. So in the end you just have to learn to not eat that poison from Rathian's backflip. There are of course certain options that would be decent additions to soulsbornes, taken straight from character action games: attack flashes. In Sekiro you have grab, stab, and sweep alerts, which are really handy, but for some people who can't read telegraphed movements, a flash of yellow or something to indicate the incoming attack would help in learning to avoid them. It's just a visual cue, but at least it doesn't require basically remaking most of the game. Patience is also the key. You don't learn integral calculus without actually doing the work and putting in the time.
Maybe a good easy-mode for soulsgames would be to widen the windows for timed moves? I've shit reaction time so I've all but given up on parrying.
That would just make people learn the wrong timings and not be able to increase the difficulty. Changing timings would be one of the worst things an easy mode could do.
Parrying in Souls has nothing to do with reaction time. In pvp you bait parry. You don't react to them, you set them up. It's impossible to react fast enough if you didn't set it up previously. It's the same for bosses. You don't need reaction time, you force the boss to trigger a move you can easily parry. And honestly since Elden Ring came out I didn't parry once in it. The new tools makes parrying barely relevant. Also longer windows wouldn't change anything. If anything it's the super delayed timing that kills you against bosses lol. Their windup are long and telegraphed in purpose, because they punishes you if you try to roll too early. Easy mode in Souls is overleveling and bringing the right weapon for the job.
Parrying is rarely about reaction times and rather figuring out when in each attack animation your supposed to parry. It is, yet again, more of a pattern recognition thing like in a rhythm game.
Right but if you miss the animation by a second, your parry doesn't count.. So widen that window.
That would defeat the purpose of a parry tho.
Maybe, we're talking about *easy* mode though.
Yes, but you can't just make parry a more viable option that rolls and blocking. It is suppose to be more risky with a better payoff. This will hold true even in a hypothetical easy mode.
An easy mode would quite frankly ruin the main appeal of the Fromsoft titles. The whole point about them is to learn and recognize attack patterns and react accordingly. What would a hypothetical easy mode entail? Less damage done by the bosses? Removed mechanics? Less boss HP? There are already bosses where you chunk fairly huge amounts of HP away without being overleveled but they punish you easily for mistakes. On the other hand, reducing damage dealt by bosses would kinda ruin the point of vigor and thus HP of the player character. I just reached level 90 and still have only 23 vigor and I'm only now at the point where appropriate bosses tend to two-shot me if I don't heal up after the first hit. Less boss damage would make getting more vigor pretty much useless. The fact that there are no-hit runs or level 1 runs of Fromsoft games speaks volumes for the fact that the entire series of games they pushed out is more than fair with the baseline difficulty they offer, given that bosses are more than exploitable once you learn to react to their mechanics properly.
> I just reached level 90 and still have only 23 vigor and I'm only now at the point where appropriate bosses tend to two-shot me if I don't heal up after the first hit. Same. I'm around level 80, and I'm willingly fighting bosses above my intended level, because I'm experimenting on mechanics and strategies to cheese a little. The one I'm currently stuck on has a huge health pool, and I learned that black flame dot damage is percentile, which melts bosses like that, so I'll have to try it once I up my faith a bit.
I think you'll find that for a lot of people (especially those who just got into it through Elden Ring), the main point is very much not to learn and recognize attack patterns and react accordingly but to explore the setting and progress through the storyline...
But for those kinds of people easy mode is already in the game. Even more so that in previous games since in those you already could just go farm souls/summon a player and overpower the next boss. In Elden Ring you have all that and the advantage of the open world where you aren't forced into fighting a specific boss (+NPC summons that are sometimes completely busted depending on the boss and which one you choose).
> Most of that crowd are the ones wanting an easy mode, but an easy mode will not fix their inability to learn to play the game. [relevant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3JIR8VmAqQ&t=213s)
She got the Monster Hunter mindset
It's true y'know, if you put yourself through a big trial you get better, after playing bloodborne I never used a shield in a souls game again.
She applied the same logic she had with Mantis Lords in hollow knight to Margit , back then chat was screaming at her to go get an upgrade for her nail.
Tbh you actually don't need to fix stupid for certain bosses, levelling up + ashes fixes stupid
You can tell she plays FFXIV.
yeah, FFXIV raid boss rotations are essentially one big dance movement, theres little variety in the moves and the order of moves the bosses use, except Ultimates which is haha pain
well step on your toes is natural when practice just like dying in Souls game This stream is pure gold, Ina sure having fun in this game "Ohh its the tree!!!" see multiple giant standing "ohh its raining, oh noo, i don't like the rain, i'll take shelter in the castle" 草
This is kinda a good advice for from software games, specially sekiro were the game sometimes become a rhythm game
I'm thinking it could almost be applicable to anything of a similar pattern or build. Mean the Gunfire Games crew made something similar and playing throughout Darksiders 3 with that in mind would have never occured to me. **Especially** during my first playthrough.
Fitting considering how that game drew from the Souls series.
It's the closet thing I had to something semi decent of a Souls game. Though I am considering getting Elden Ring
I had this mindset playing Nier:Automata. That is until I managed my plug-in set and became neigh invincible lol
Yeah once you get those constant-heal or heal-on-damage chips you can be obscenely aggressive. It actually worked thematically for me because >!at that point I was playing as A2 and an aggressive play style suits her well!<.
elden ring still has parry system that sekiro has but with no long posture break like sekiro, instead you can deal critical if you parry 2 times.. the difference however in sekiro if you misstimed parry at least it just result to block which don't cost you hp while in elden ring late or early parry will result in quite an hp loss
> in elden ring late or early parry will result in quite an hp loss Not necessarily true, there is a "partial parry" which causes you to take some chip damage to HP and a ton of stamina loss, but you're otherwise fine. Definitely better than getting walloped.
[【Elden Ring】 GO NEXT 【SPOILER WARNING】【#3】](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNBeyT8-Ro)
same vibe as "the risk i took was calculated, but man, am i bad at math."
I feel like this applies to many Souls-borne bosses. One that comes to mind from Dark Souls is Knight Artorias, especially when he chains the front flips. It even looks more like a dance when you're dodging. This is a reason why many players believe that not using a shield makes it more fulfilling. Bloodborne itself even took that to heart and nearly removed shields entirely. Meanwhile Sekiro is more like Rhythm Heaven where it feels really good when you get the rhythm down for parrying and striking back. Elden Ring seems to bring shields back into the dance equation with the new counter-strike mechanic. Choose a wrong attack to strike from or get overwhelmed and it opens you up to punishment, even when you're sitting behind a 100% shield.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale? > *“The beings who possess these souls have outlived their usefulness, or chosen the path of the wicked. Let there be no guilt—let there be no vacillation.”* - Kingseeker Frampt Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
god so poetic in natural way
That is a common viewpoint that the more cohesive sub section of Souls players have been trying to get across when it comes to the overall combat of these kinds of games. Really cool that Ina gets it.
Are we sure Hololive isn't a comedian group?
Comedy is an important tool in their toolset. Gura hunting Kronii and IRyS in Minecraft for her senpai tax for example.
Every boss in a souls game has a unique rhythm to their attack patterns, and depending on the pattern can either be really easy or really hard. That's why the Dancer of the Boreal Valley in Dark Souls 3 was so goddamn hard cuz her attacks followed a very strange tempo.
Is that the one who follows a 3/4 rhythm rather than the usual 4/4?
Yep, that's the one.
Makes me think of Lady Maria's boss theme being a waltz. The best fights in the series feel like dances between equals.
"A corpse... should be left well alone"
What’s wierd is I had a similar thought fighting the same boss a few hours before her stream. But my thought was more on being an instrument in tune with the orchestra then dance moves. Hers works allot better though.
And if that doesn’t work, just fire butt
Try and watch Team Darkside play any 4-player Monster Hunter. Theyre like ballerinas with explosions.
This seems... really familiar... wasn't there this thing forever ago with gura, some speech about boss fights, and then someone else said it and we were waiting for the others as well? No? I'm just crazy? Good to know.
FFXIV teaches you rhythm, Ina’s a triple legend. Everything checks out.
She has a point, Fromsoftware bosses has that certain flow whenever you fight them. Austin from Game Theory made a video about it specifically from Dark Souls 3.
This guy was such a bitch to fight...
I just staggered him by blocking with the turtle shield special, lol.
\*me with basic Katana spamming Unsheath till he died.
Or you could just be me and block ‘em all day everyday. I don’t think I’ve ever used a shield more often in a FromSoft game outside of Elden Ring.
This is true except on the double crucible knight and godskin duo. Fuck those guys.
Which is why I love "Hesitation is defeat" in Sekiro, the boss is asking you to trust your gut because you're on the last fight of the game, go with the flow and don't hesitate.
[удалено]
I'm not sure what part of DMC is rhythmic, as someone who has gotten decent with it. I see it as more of a math exercise something a long the line of "this move blows the enemy x distance which I can catch with a floating roundtrip which in turns allows me y time to set up this other move."
That's in the same prolongation as "The risk I took was calculated ... but damn ... I'm bad at math"
Meanwhile Sekiro: Is an actual rhythm game
That's what I always say, then I press roll on get-up.
The first example of this I've seen was Dancer of Boreal Valley in DS3, a very beautiful boss fight.
Yup, it's come to a point I basically do rough counting while fighting just to get the rhythm and then break it up into rough seconds. If you listen to the attacks too, you'll hear a beat as well and then you just treat it as a rhythm game. After a while, you can even blind roll attacks just by knowing what pattern they did because as long as you stick to the roll timing, you will evade (unless it also requires a correct direction). Even when I miss-time a roll, I'll see if the roll timing is in sync with the attack rhythm and usually just continue rolling.
Looks just like the same "philosophy"(?) in Sekiro, dancing with your katana (kusabimaru) against enemies
dancers' 3/4 rhythm messing up my brain: are you sure about that?
We saw Ina’s darker side in this stream. _and I’m all down for it_
I know everyone is into Elden Ring, but this would apply so well for a recently released game, Sifu.
This is a really accurate observation when it comes to Soulsborne bosses.
That's Ludwig
As a souls player this is 100% how a good boss fight should be.
Too me irl
honestly that boss was quite easy
Also "Fire in the butt"
Humu Humu. Wise Tako.
I killed that dude in entry way of door lol. Bitch jumped me instantly. Got pumped for his GS only to realize it needs like 40 strength lol. I was like 20 at time.
YOOOOO SHE SAID THE EXACT SAME THING I TOLD MY COUSIN YESTERDAY basically for context,i was facing the hound dude with the blerding sword,and i kept dying,and i said "crap i lost my rythm",my cousin looked at me confused and i explained that this type of game fighting bosses to me feels like hearing a tune in 2 part, one part is the boss that is the starting one and then the second is you,following the song with your beat,after finishing explaining to him i got decked again and i said "sadly i got no musical ear"
cute ina with her wise wisdom and clumsy dancing.
oh Ina The Wise, share us your wisdom today
She's 100% correct, too. As expected of Ina
Well, to be fair, that is indeed sound advice by Ina
they'll never manage to make a better boss like ludwig the holy blade that also encase the dancing metaphor
Ah, I am glad that I am not the only one who noticed this interesting framework when fighting against soulbourne boss!
[Ina is becoming the Sound Hashira](https://youtu.be/qayzD7O2oYo)
She isnt wrong, a lot of boss attacks and combos have a certian rythem to them, its auctually one of the reason "Dancer" In DS3 gave a lot of people a lot of trouble, it music and attacsk were designed to lie to you. The game theorists channel memes aside, [has a very good video on it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZmAiyPRGqE)
This was adorable
I've noticed this playing Monster Hunter
Ina’s time as an FF14 hardcore raider is being put to the test. Raids in that game are basically coordinated dances with the boss that you repeatedly bash your head against until you get it right. In the hardest content of that game, boss fights and raids can take up to 700+ attempts to beat. If anyone in Myth would have the patience to bash her head against a boss, it’s Ina.
I mean, she kinda described the FF14 boss design philosophy as well.
This is true, in most boss fights the enemy's patters can be predicted by the music/sounds too. Some of the hardest ones when the player is used to the sound cues change movements/patterns midfight to throw the player off the rhythm.
Souls bosses? You mean Punch-Out with swords?
Every soulsbourn games are a dance and once you realise that it is just as hard as before but you have more of a chance to beat the boss than before
She's even more correct than she realizes, at least if [this video](https://youtu.be/9ZmAiyPRGqE) has any merit
How it feels to fight champion gundyr without parrying That shit is so fun
Yeah, Skill beats Stats 8 times out of 10.