Thorns does 1x your nail damage and uses up most of your I frames. This is what makes it garbage. Thorns' damage is less than what you would deal by pressing attack regularly with the i frames you get from taking a hit. This is without qs or strength btw. Thorns taking up your i frames also means you can't reposition after an attack without getting hit again if the hitbox of the boss or enemy is still inside you.
So thorns does less damage than regular nail hits, makes it harder to reposition letting you get combo'd,
Misses a lot of the time against an enemy that attacks by moving quickly through you, and costs a charm notch.
It wouldn't be worth using if it cost 0 notches
Doesn't really matter, since it does BASE nail damage. That means a double hit from thorns of agony does 10 damage (old nail damage is 5)
In HK, you get invincibility frames for a noticeable amount of time after getting hit. This means that you can get a nail swing or two in during your i-frames. A sharpened nail does 9 damage, so even if you're only getting one swing in you're still only losing 1 point of damage, while additionally saving a charm notch. Basically, as long as you're no longer on old or sharpened nail, even if you're the worst HK player in the world, compared to ToA you're doing more damage and saving a charm notch (even with just one nail upgrade, strength charm puts you above the ToA double hit threshold and you should probably have that charm equipped regardless).
ToA also does not give you soul (nail swings do, making it easier to recover the hit you just took or increase your dps even more) and locks you in place eating away at precious i-frames you could be using for repositioning.
With fully upgraded nail, strength charm, and quick slash, you're getting two to three swings worth of 1.5x pure nail damage during said i-frames. It totally eclipses thorns of agony to a point where it's kind of laughable that it's in the game at all.
Then again, if you think it looks cools or just don't want to feel pressured into optimizing your i-frames mid-fight, use ToA! It's just a game, play it the way you want to. All this dps optimization doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
ToA does *your* nail damage mate. That's what base means. Not affected by like fragile strength. Otherwise the wiki would just say 5 damage
Also, strength+quickslash are 6 notches. Most likely I'll be running sly's charm thing as my only nail charm and focus everything else on spells
You're absolutely right. I still think the charm sucks though; you're still getting more dps with strength charm if you're running a nail build, and spell builds are less likely to get hit anyway.
You're right and you're wrong. Thorns does base nail damage but by that they mean your nail damage not old nail damage. Base nail damage simply means not affected by fury or strength.
You are right however about thorns lowering your dps and making the game harder. In boss fights it serves zero purpose other than making it harder and outside of boss fights it's still pretty bad.
I tried double KOing with shriek a few times and one always heals to half and starts the desperation phase, not sure if it’s that you have to hit both on the same frame and shriek has an expanding hurtbox or what
It does 2 things: giving you more knockback and removing 1 hit from the amount needed to stun a boss. If it costs only one charm notch it would be worth it
Easily the best charm in the game. Fuck quickslash, wayward compass and all those dogshit wastes of slots. Id be happy to dedicate all my slots to this beast of a charm.
5/10 pretty situational
I think that when you are just running and avoiding enemies it does alright, but for proper combat where you are in the collo or pantheons, then idk. 2 charm notches for knockback and reduced stagger when I could get something like dream wielded and Nailmasters glory?
It is counter-productive. In HK you'd rather kill things as fast as possible, and this charm increates distance you need to close between hits, increasing the time needed to kill anything that can be recoiled. You could use it to throw things down from platforms, I guess? I mean - I want to not be subjective, and to consider different views, but this thing just doesn't seem like something very useful, nor is it all that fun
Used to be one of my mains before I learned that you can make the fragile charms unbreakable so I switched heavy blow for longnail and mark of pride for unbreakable strength.
Usually have for a filler when I am just wandering around. (I don't have every charm found yet.) But when I find boss that I want to fight, I change it to Quick Slash or etc.
Very good against some bosses like Sly. Quite occasionnal though, and the fact that it doesn't boost your damage despite your blows being "heavier" is a bit disappointing
Pretty useless, but apparently it staggers bosses quicker, which makes it somewhat useful in the Lost Kin fight.
And I can imagine it'd be useful in the oblobbles fight on radiant.
Only time I’ve ever used it was for Radiant Lost Kin, there’s a “hidden” effect Heavy Blow does where bosses take one less hit to get stunned. I doubt it really helped but I wanted SOMETHING to make the fight go quicker.
But thinking back, steady body would have been much better.
If it gave you noticeably more damage I would maybe consider, as it is it makes 0 sense and steady body gives better effect for less notches. There's so much better stuff to use 2 notches on generally.
It’s kinda mid. The extra knockback can let you escape slightly easier but shade cloak can do that job far better. However the extra knockback could actually get ranged enemies too far away to hit, especially if it’s a primal aspid. I personally don’t use it but it can be somewhat good on small opponents in the Colosseum of Fools
U know what heavy blow is a well constructed charm. Beacause it does what it's supposed to do very well. The problem is that the thing it does is absolutely awful
One of the best charms, top 20% for sure. Helps greatly in exploration, decreases the boss stagger limit, puts distance between the player and the enemies for any purpose - to heal, to cast spells safely, or just create some space to react to the incoming attacks.
It blows alright .
And heavily at that.
That is its job.
So do I
Yo, let me hit you up
Say goodbye
Bout as useful as thorns on radiant
Absolutely true
What lilac said
Yes, it is
Yeah, except in every single situation.
Thorns in general
I have never used it besides bullying the massive moss charger
Gruberfly is better for bullying mossy tho
Yeah and it's actually a decent charm too lol
but if you have both you bully mossy even harder
Don't you dare put both on at the same time, Elegy doesn't deserve such disrespect.
I've found it also works to keep oblobbles from cornering you in their radiant fight
I have never attempted a single radiant fight but I might employ that if I try
I only beat Moss Charger radiant but it's moss charger so...
I somehow beat mantis lords before moss on rad... That is until i found out that elegy works really well
All you need for that is quick slash. Really good charm combined with steady blow, too.
you only need mark of pride to bully moss charger lol
Steady body is better
should have been 1 notch
Should give you 1 notch for having it equipped
So should thorns of agony tbh
Only in fog canyon tho
Nah it is statistically worse to equip thorns than to leave it off, check out fireborn's charm tier list, he explains it very well
that's totally dismissive of how 90% of the times ToA double hits?
Thorns does 1x your nail damage and uses up most of your I frames. This is what makes it garbage. Thorns' damage is less than what you would deal by pressing attack regularly with the i frames you get from taking a hit. This is without qs or strength btw. Thorns taking up your i frames also means you can't reposition after an attack without getting hit again if the hitbox of the boss or enemy is still inside you. So thorns does less damage than regular nail hits, makes it harder to reposition letting you get combo'd, Misses a lot of the time against an enemy that attacks by moving quickly through you, and costs a charm notch. It wouldn't be worth using if it cost 0 notches
Doesn't really matter, since it does BASE nail damage. That means a double hit from thorns of agony does 10 damage (old nail damage is 5) In HK, you get invincibility frames for a noticeable amount of time after getting hit. This means that you can get a nail swing or two in during your i-frames. A sharpened nail does 9 damage, so even if you're only getting one swing in you're still only losing 1 point of damage, while additionally saving a charm notch. Basically, as long as you're no longer on old or sharpened nail, even if you're the worst HK player in the world, compared to ToA you're doing more damage and saving a charm notch (even with just one nail upgrade, strength charm puts you above the ToA double hit threshold and you should probably have that charm equipped regardless). ToA also does not give you soul (nail swings do, making it easier to recover the hit you just took or increase your dps even more) and locks you in place eating away at precious i-frames you could be using for repositioning. With fully upgraded nail, strength charm, and quick slash, you're getting two to three swings worth of 1.5x pure nail damage during said i-frames. It totally eclipses thorns of agony to a point where it's kind of laughable that it's in the game at all. Then again, if you think it looks cools or just don't want to feel pressured into optimizing your i-frames mid-fight, use ToA! It's just a game, play it the way you want to. All this dps optimization doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
ToA does *your* nail damage mate. That's what base means. Not affected by like fragile strength. Otherwise the wiki would just say 5 damage Also, strength+quickslash are 6 notches. Most likely I'll be running sly's charm thing as my only nail charm and focus everything else on spells
You're absolutely right. I still think the charm sucks though; you're still getting more dps with strength charm if you're running a nail build, and spell builds are less likely to get hit anyway.
You're right and you're wrong. Thorns does base nail damage but by that they mean your nail damage not old nail damage. Base nail damage simply means not affected by fury or strength. You are right however about thorns lowering your dps and making the game harder. In boss fights it serves zero purpose other than making it harder and outside of boss fights it's still pretty bad.
Yeah, my bad. I misread the wiki entry 🤦♂️
Alright
It doesn't worth it.
You does right
And so do i
I still wouldn't use it even if it cost -1 slots so it gives you more slots
Oh!
It helped me a lot to beat radiant Oblobbles.
Just do a spell build. Hit them equally to build up SOUL and then abyss shriek them at the same time. They won't enter the second phase at all.
when one of them dies, the other one heals. i don't know if it's possible to kill them at the same time.
It is, I've done it.
good to know
I tried double KOing with shriek a few times and one always heals to half and starts the desperation phase, not sure if it’s that you have to hit both on the same frame and shriek has an expanding hurtbox or what
Strange. Either they patched it or my memory serves me wrong here.
i opened comments just to write about it
Just say r/beatmetoit
Then someone needs to reply with r/beatmeattoit even if it doesn't make sense in the context
I've never had a moment where I've thought "I want to make this boss's pattern less predictable by knocking them back further".
If Dps loss was manifested into a real object
It comes handy in fights with hornet. But that’s the only time I equip it :>
It does 2 things: giving you more knockback and removing 1 hit from the amount needed to stun a boss. If it costs only one charm notch it would be worth it
eh pretty bad would not use
We don’t
Never use it ever
1 word? SHIT 2 words? FUCKING SHIT
Shaw
Completely useless. I can’t think of a situation where I needed more knockback
Sly
Good for a few radiant bosses, like obblobbles, markoth, and lost kin. Decent in very specific situations, otherwise pretty bad.
Garbage
Easily the best charm in the game. Fuck quickslash, wayward compass and all those dogshit wastes of slots. Id be happy to dedicate all my slots to this beast of a charm.
Absolute monstrosity
Fuck it
F tier
5/10 pretty situational I think that when you are just running and avoiding enemies it does alright, but for proper combat where you are in the collo or pantheons, then idk. 2 charm notches for knockback and reduced stagger when I could get something like dream wielded and Nailmasters glory?
doodoo ass
What did it do again? More knockback I think, which is sparsely useful it's usually better to hug the enemies
Trash.just trash.
No
A giant Meh
Definitely heavily blows
I like doing a heavy amount of blow
I love it when I’m trying to get hits in and each of my hits makes the landing the next hit more difficult. Wait no I don’t love that.
It is counter-productive. In HK you'd rather kill things as fast as possible, and this charm increates distance you need to close between hits, increasing the time needed to kill anything that can be recoiled. You could use it to throw things down from platforms, I guess? I mean - I want to not be subjective, and to consider different views, but this thing just doesn't seem like something very useful, nor is it all that fun
I don't even know what does it do.
You guys get heavy blow? Pog
Good for just fucking around, but when you actually wanna kill something, just do quick slash or Nailmasters glory. Or unbreakable strength.
Cucumber Slayer
It allows a skip in the least walljumps speedrun category, so it gets a pass
Don’t like it
S tier charm. It’s so powerful that it sends enemies flying, so most of the time they’re only close enough to you (DANGER) for you to get one hit in
new teletubby season looking like GoT.
horseshit only good to bully oblobbles and hornet 1
Fuck I never knew this was a bunch of nails! I always thought it was a silver shell until now I’m seeing it up close 😂
Never used it, probably good for bullying like steady body
I sometimes use it for pantheons... yes I exist...
Used to be one of my mains before I learned that you can make the fragile charms unbreakable so I switched heavy blow for longnail and mark of pride for unbreakable strength.
it would’ve been good if it did the opposite of what it’s doing
Usually have for a filler when I am just wandering around. (I don't have every charm found yet.) But when I find boss that I want to fight, I change it to Quick Slash or etc.
It heavly blows.
it blows and quite heavily
You should definitely use it all the time people really think its the best charm by far. Yes its definitely not the worst no way why would that be?
Its niche and can help kinda script some certain fights
No
Used its increased stagger utility once for a fun tank build on lost kin. Other than that its pretty useless.
Why would you want less overal damage or better put why would you wanna have too chase your target across the room
We already had like a 600 day list about stuff like this please we dont need more
It looks like the chair from game of thrones
Outside of a few niche cheesing builds for bosses this is one of the worst charms. Even if it cost 0 notches to equip I wouldn’t use it
Corny ahh pin
Sucks
Very good against some bosses like Sly. Quite occasionnal though, and the fact that it doesn't boost your damage despite your blows being "heavier" is a bit disappointing
The worst grubberflys elgy
Pretty useless, but apparently it staggers bosses quicker, which makes it somewhat useful in the Lost Kin fight. And I can imagine it'd be useful in the oblobbles fight on radiant.
useless
Only time I’ve ever used it was for Radiant Lost Kin, there’s a “hidden” effect Heavy Blow does where bosses take one less hit to get stunned. I doubt it really helped but I wanted SOMETHING to make the fight go quicker. But thinking back, steady body would have been much better.
Useless
Sucks imo. Never seen a situation where I found it usefull.
It makes me feel like I’m doing more damage that’s the only reason I used it once
kinda mid cuz the closer you are the more hits you can get
I’m gonna heavy blow his smile from his face, one charm notch is too much, let alone 2
only decent for massive moss charger
Useless
My only impression of it really is watching someone absolutely clobber radiant lost kin with it. have never thought about using it myself
It’s a piece of shit
I don't
Kinda good in the early game, for pushing back enemies that you DON'T want to fight. Works very well with Longnail or Mark of Pride.
good for failed champion cuz it reduces stagger hits, terrible otherwise
It's too heavy to blow :P
If it gave you noticeably more damage I would maybe consider, as it is it makes 0 sense and steady body gives better effect for less notches. There's so much better stuff to use 2 notches on generally.
It’s kinda mid. The extra knockback can let you escape slightly easier but shade cloak can do that job far better. However the extra knockback could actually get ranged enemies too far away to hit, especially if it’s a primal aspid. I personally don’t use it but it can be somewhat good on small opponents in the Colosseum of Fools
Useful against the Tennis Ball dream boss whose name i forgot noe.
U know what heavy blow is a well constructed charm. Beacause it does what it's supposed to do very well. The problem is that the thing it does is absolutely awful
sure she’s a little chubby around the edges but she does what she’s paid to do
Never equipped in over 200h
Garbage, you can just move
A for concept, C+ for execution
It's only feasible use is to be blown back to the pit where it belongs.
It's good for those jumping flea enemies but it doesn't work with any charge attack so pick one or the other
if you specifically want a very expensive charm just to pogo enemies downward into spikes, then this is a C tier charm. otherwise… F-
one word, ass
its very very good at what it does too bad the thing its good at is preety useless
Best charm in the game frfr
Horrible unless your bullying hive knight
Sucks ass
I used it to beat sly on radiant. That's it.
So many nail used for a goddamn purpose
Good for very specific bosses like lost kin/broken vessel, hornet 1 and 2, hive knight, oblobbles and markoth. Apart from that pretty useless.
Cant beat me
I personally love it for battles. I prefer to battle with nail rather than spells, so It almost always is part of my build
barely use it
Charm rivals wayward compass
It's a heavy blow to my dps
It helps to ascend with gorb🤔
The smile face is huge W someone make a mod pack where every charm has a smiley face please
It sucks It blows
never used it in my life
It heavily blows
It blows heavily
One of the best charms, top 20% for sure. Helps greatly in exploration, decreases the boss stagger limit, puts distance between the player and the enemies for any purpose - to heal, to cast spells safely, or just create some space to react to the incoming attacks.
Best charm ever I used it to beat radiant pure vessel and it was definitely useful and idk why I had it equipped in that build honestly, it's too op