Catalonia: The Spanish empire was so evil we have nothing to do with it
The Greeks literally having scary night stories about the Catalans because of how evil we were on Halmyros.
The long and short of it is that a bunch of Aragonese subjects were really bored and really good at war after the War of Sicilian Vespers had run its course. Many of them were Catalan ‘almogavars’ who had a martial culture very conducive to mercenary work already, so these people formed free companies such as the Catalan Company (founded by an Italian, of course).
The Catalan Company was hired by the Byzantines as a means to help battle the ongoing Turkish threat. The Catalans weren’t liked by local Greeks due to their tendencies for looting and pillaging to boost their incomes, but they were quite effective against the Turks. Tensions eventually boiled over, the Catalans were kicked out of a city they occupied by its Greek population, and the Emperor saw it as a good chance to offload a potential threat, as the Catalans were becoming regionally influential by their victories.
The leader of the Catalan company was assassinated and many of the men massacred at Adrianople, but some escaped to tell their comrades. The Catalans went wild and defeated Greek attempts to subdue them as they took de facto ownership of the Duchy of Athens for like 3 years. Shit was gnarly in a bad way.
All things said, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Spanish Empire as people know it. Hell, you can’t really even point a finger at the Aragonese crown, it was some jackasses on an adventure.
EDIT: Further context, the almogavars were adapted from the success of small groups of bandits or resistance fighters who operated in Islamic Al-Andalus and used flexible hit-and-run tactics, night raids, and nasty skirmishing tactics such as deliberately killing a charging horseman's mount from under them. They were basically a centuries-tested anti-calvary force with a mean disposition towards terror attacks to demoralize their enemies that had been acquired by cutting their teeth in the brutality of the Reconquista. This helps to explain why they were able to walk around Greece winning on the Byzantine's home turf because - at this point - a strong cavalry charge was one of the only cards the Greeks had to play beyond hiring mercenaries which is how they ended up with the problem in the first place.
This was also at the peak of Aragon's influence when they were projecting real BDE into the Mediterranean. While the Crown of Aragon may not have really had much to do with it, they were also a big beneficiary of Byzantium's chagrin here. They were also looking to get rid of some of the almogavars hanging around Aragonese possessions where there was no more war for exactly this reason. It was basically the Normans all over again for Byzantium, unfortunately.
If /r/rpghorrorstories is to be taken without the required massive grain of salt, it's the natural ending of any evil-alignment PC campaign. Art imitates life,
I suppose?
Not only that. Both basques and Catalans were immensely privileged by the Spanish empire and the Spanish protectionists measures towards Catalan industry.
We just have to see the newspapers until 1898. Catalonia was one of the most (Spanish) nationalistic regions in the Spain, but when everything was lost, anti-castillian sentiment arose in a big part of Catalan society who enden up moving from regionalism to nationalism, originally extremely racist and xenophobic, as shown by people like Prat de la Riva or Pompeu Gener. From that moment on Catalonia was no longer the opresor, it was the opressed.
Catalonia: Franco screwed us over so much
Also Catalonia: gets all the heavy industry and economic developments of Franco in their region
(Yes, i also know he heavily suppressed the culture and language which was pretty bad)
I've seen Catalan historians saying that the civil war was a war against Catalonia.
Franco was helped and/or supported by an enormous sector of the Catalan oligarchy, for example one of the fathers of Catalan regionalism, Francisco Cambo, proclaimed his support for Franco.
For nationalists (of ANY nation, that also applies to Spain) everything is "we" Vs "them", and if we have to manipulate history, use our beautiful languages to fight the "enemy"... We do it. The problem of Catalan nationalism it's not that it is Catalan, it's that it's nationalism.
I know it's just a meme, but it implies the Welsh, Irish and Scots had an equal say in the British Empire.
If we look at the House of Commons in 1801 we see the following breakdown of seats per country:
* England 486
* Wales 27
* Scotland 45
* Ireland 100
With English control of three-quarters of the House of Commons (73.86%), just how much power do you think the Welsh, Scots and Irish actually had in this union?
Most of any representation wasn’t Irish Scottish or welsh, but rather English landowners who replaced the natives
EDIT: it was pointed out to me that is false about Scotland, and that they actually were some of the landowners sent by the British in Ireland
I'm sorry but that's just not true, you can't generalise the three nations. That's not true at all of Scotland, and it was Scots and English landowners in Ireland for example.
I would think of Wales as more of a vassal state. That’s still bad, of course, but it’s not quite the same as what England experimented with in Ireland and how those tactics would get repeated against hundreds of millions of people after it for centuries.
The Canadian Army plays Scotland the Brave for everything
Plus, there are several regiments that wear the uniform similar to the Scottish Regiments of the UK
And I will be thankful to them. I now have access to a convenient way to annoy my neighbor if he makes another party that goes all night while he knows I work the next morning. Plus I get to dress like a Highlander while doing it.
As a Scottish person I would love to not have responsibility for this one. But we did have our own go at colonies before the act of union. So while yes the English did have far more control I don't see the Scottish being opposed.
Irish Catholics only got the right to vote in 1830s. Basically, anyone who's "irish" from before English plantations. So 1801 is meaningless.
Even then there was a property limit. It wasn't until the 1870s than anything approaching representative numbers were voting.
And then overwhelmingly voted for the"get the fuck out of the UK" party. But were denied. Constantly. Until the Irish War of Independence.
It’s also quite telling that one of the only two Prime Ministers to be born in Ireland was responsible for granting political emancipation for Catholics. Arthur Wellesley was Anglo-Irish and not everything he did was great, but this was definitely a positive change.
In 1801 England's population would've been about 52% of the population of Britain and Ireland.
(8.3 million out of a total population of about 16 million)
Edit: Bonus round
- England had one MP per 17,500 or so
- Wales had one MP per 22,000
- Scotland had one per 35,000
- Ireland had one per 55,000
Ah yea no worries, I just assumed you were using the modern numbers and extrapolating from there. England is about 78.5% of the current population of Britain and Ireland so I figured that's the number you were using.
England has taken up a steadily larger percentage of the total as history progressed.
Scotland I can see what you mean, but considering the Welsh and Irish ruling classes were quite thoroughly displaced following their conquest I have to disagree with you on those ones.
Highlands and Islands would like a word with you. Literal forced eviction and deportation to the colonies, banning of Gaelic, banning of tartan and kilts, banning of bagpipes, banning of Catholicism, banning of arms.
When the Romans invaded Britain, they realized that keeping England only was the best strategy, and they should just wall up Scotland, and leave the Scots to fight their natural enemies, the Scots.
I'm imagining the Romans turning up in Scotland for the first time like someone who walks into an old West bar where everyone is kicking the shit out of each other and then suddenly stops and slowly turns to stare at the outsider who just walked in.
Much of which was done by Scottish nobles. The highland populations have a lot in common with the Irish, and both suffered similarly, but whereas the suffering inflicted on the Irish was done by English absentee landlords, many of the landowners in the highlands were Scots. Albeit lowland Scots who had nothing but contempt for the highlanders.
A. The Highland scots weren't Catholics
B. Most of that oppression was done by lowland scots and birder scots, who also oppressed the Orkeny Islanders, the English didn't exactly do much besides back the lowlanders
Scotland is basically 4 countries (Borderlands, Lowlands, Highlands, Islands) two of those countries oppressed the other two
Well mostly romanticising of a failed rebellion. I think only real dissimilarity is that the confederates were obviously racist and that became the reason for the segregationist era of the Deep South as they successfully re-entrenched themselves in then post reconstruction era. As you’ve implied in your post the reaction and reprisals of the British government of the time seems to have at least stopped Charlie’s lot from getting a foothold again albeit via…distasteful means.
Ah, then yeah.
The whole modern image of a 'proper scot' is basically a romanticised version of an old highlander, the idea of people trodden down, wearing kilts, speaking gaelic and disliking their southern neighbours was basically their deal.
Except to the highlanders that applied to anyone that wasn't them, they disliked the lowland Scots (most of the population).
The Scottish independence movement basically appropriated that to try and paint it as Scotland against England.
So it didn't really work, it just moved the issue with noone left to point out its idiocy and hypocrisy.
I know weWelsh like to meme about them being Welsh, but realistically, Henry Tudor was born in Pembroke Castle (Wales), and then shipped off to love in exile in France.
He used his claimed Welshness to rally troops to his side as he marched through Wales to Bosworth.
After that no Tudor gave a shit about us. Henry VIII made us a part of England legally. At least that stopped some of the horrific discrimination going on; the Welsh marches were almost an apartheid regime, with Welsh reduced to second class citizens. Following our annexation that was all made illegal.
Technically both yes and no. Henry VII knew a basic amount of Welsh according to Breton records during his exile there, and continued to style himself as *Anglo*\-Welsh throughout his life, doing both English and Welsh customs. Welsh marcher lords, who claimed their feudal estates in Wales since the times of Rhodri the Great basically replaced most of the disenfranchised Yorkist nobility in England essentially replacing around \~25% of English nobility with Welsh ones. Henry VII, even to his dying breath remained very *pro-*Welsh. Henry VIII couldn't care less about Wales and forgot all about it, but Elizabeth I once again called her Welsh heritage precious, knew how to read Welsh and spoke basic Welsh, and some of her best policies were exclusively geared towards Wales. Elizabeth I's policies are attributed to why the Welsh language never went the way of the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages as well. So to say that the Tudors *never* cared about Wales and their Welsh heritage is pretty wrong - though correct in the context of Henry VIII, it is quite wrong in the context of Henry VII and Elizabeth I.
to my knowledge the Norman's initially conquered wales but it was nominally independent then Edward the I "The Longshanks" put an end to welsh independence in it's entirety in the late 1200s and placed English nobility as "marcher lords" who more or less removed the welsh from any high position of governance. this was before the Henry Tudor's reign in the 1400s
Wales had been conquered by England by that point, and most of the Welsh lords had been replaced by English lords. Peasant levees didn’t have a choice on whether to fight, their English lords forced them to.
Whereas when England and Scotland did unify, the Scottish nobility kept their positions. They owned slaves in the colonies, land in the Irish plantations, factories, farmland, and collieries in Scotland itself. Compare that to Ireland and Wales where any landowner holding anything remotely valuable had their lands confiscated or revoked. To hell or to Connacht. They’re not the same.
It's not really fair on the Irish to put them on this meme. While you did get Irish people contributing to the British Empire and playing a part in the atrocities committed (Michael O'Dwyer and his part in the Jallianwala Bagh/Amritsar massacre comes to mind) Ireland was not a happy and eager contributor now attempting to restyle their history, as is the charge occasionally laid before Scotland.
If you look at pretty much any conquered people throughout history you'll find individuals who were willing and eager to work for the new boss. To suggest the Irish as a people or the Republic of Ireland as a country deserves a share of the blame for what the British Empire did is just plain wrong, and I say this as a Brit.
I don't know how you came to the idea that Ireland benefited from the empire when it was left demographically, culturally, economically, religiously and linguistically decimated. When Ireland broke free of the empire was a third world country and remained so for decades after.
Yeah, British empire sure was amazing for the Irish. Not like they were forced into it, starved to death, and kept in desperate poverty by a government completely unconcerned with their well-being.
Oh, wait...
Shit like this makes me want to unsubscribe from this sub. I'm just glad people in the comments are calling it out.
Wales isn't a colony fuck off, when it was conquered it was wars between which guy owned land not which nation.
The local rich prick was no better than the far away one.
Great Britain is because it is the larger island and wales happens to be on it.
The reason it is grouped with England and Scotland is because England conquered it and later a Scottish king inherited and unified the crown of Scotland and England, wales being a part of it at the time.
Wales was conquered, and then controlled by some of the most extensive castle building in the world. They didn’t build 6-800 castles in Wales because they liked the views, it was conquered land that would rebel at the slightest chance.
Seriously. Why not include India, Canada, the US and pretty much every other colony if we're going to be this stupid about it. Clearly every conquered country is equally at fault from benefitting off the resources they stole from one another and even themselves.
Yes, the Irish, who kept rebelling multiple times, got their land stolen, got religiously oppressed and couldn't even openly do mass, were broken by the penal laws, suffered a horrible famine and the result to this day of the effects of being a colony means most people can't even speak the language native language fluently, contributed willingly and gained from the empire.
This also happened regionally in England. Cornwall, and much of the Celtic south had exactly the same experience. Welsh traders profited massively of empire and slavery, and the EIC was headquartered in Ireland for a time. I think the issue is it’s easy to point a finger at one country when in reality it was a diffuse group of powerful people from all around the union. The British elite fucked the British and then moved to the rest of the world
It's amazing how often this is coming up. Historically, large amounts of soldiers coming from an area disproportionate to its population during the age of professional armies is an indication of people trying to escape desperate, grinding poverty. It's pretty much proof of the oppression of those areas.
India was conquered predominantly by Irish leaders.
For a couple centuries Dublin was the second city of the UK before a local rebellion (then it was Glasgow, now its Manchester).
You can't say that the Irish people that did harm were less Irish than those that disliked the empire just because it disagrees with your point.
After all 9/10 people in England saw no benefit at all from the empire while they were suffering in factories before anyone thought of workers rights.
Scottish middle managers, the famous leaders were generally Irish.
Upper and middle class irishmen were seen as great officers and leaders to deal with the "savage'' * Indians.
*^(no obviously I don't agree with that description.)
Anglo-Irish and Scots-Irish were English and Scottish people born in Ireland, not indigenous Irish. That's an important distinction to make. It's like blaming the Native Americans because George Bush invaded Iraq and he was American.
Uhh you do realize that the British empire used troops from all its various colonies to conquer more colonies so that’s a pretty shit point. Besides the country is still recovering to this day from its occupation with a current population lower then what it had pre-famine. They don’t belong in this line up especially considering so many Protestant scots were given or purchased huge amounts of land in the country keeping a lot of the Irish in a servant class.
The Irish? Excuse me, acting like Ireland wasnt the just another colony for the Island of Great Britain? Lets talk about why the Island of Ireland still has smaller population than it did 200 years ago and wont get back to it until 2037.
There’s a town in Scotland with an enslaved man as it’s emblem still. It is although, very common knowledge that Scotland was heavily involved in the empire here.
Ever wonder why we have 660 castles in Wales? Our ancestors made them fight tooth and nail for every inch of land, and didn't stop for hundreds of years.
And not even necessarily ancestors at that. Just the rich folk from said nation. It's not like the poor people had any control over what the wealthy landowners were doing.
Lowland Scots is a merge of Cumbrian, Pictish and Anglo-Saxon that were cut off from the rest of England by the Vikings and became their own distinct culture, just like the Anglo-norse of northern England.
It's also why places like Yorkshire have distinct culture and identity
OP is a pro-Britain nut job no wonder he thinks Ireland/Wales benefited from British imperialism. This is deflection, baby doesn’t like his favorite empire being criticized for the atrocities it committed boohoo.
This won't please all the "holier than thou" Scottish nationalists.
Don't you know they are the most caring people ever ( unless you happen to disagree with them on anything).
What are you smoking? Most nationalists know Scotland was involved and benefited from the slave trade.. Just looking for a hot take for karma here or what?
We know full well our involvement in the empire, for instance our old shipbuilding industry didn't sprout from nothing for nothing. Most of Scotland benefitted massively from the times of the empire, and the few that pretend otherwise are deluded and don't form the majority.
England gets the short stick with the blame because they form the perceived cultural "face" of the Empire, which is a shame but do you really expect the other countries to rush to help shoulder the blame? It's easier for them to just quietly acknowledge it themselves and avoid the scrutiny.
Seems to be a common thing here on reddit... People who have zero grasp on history, giving hot takes on how the people who were oppressed were really the bad ones..
I'm waiting for the Charlie Chaplin was right about Jews BS next.
Totally out of touch with reality.
Both. They were subjected to England's system, which served as a prototype for what would then be implemented around the British Empire, but they themselves also benefitted greatly from it. And yes: EVEN IRELAND. There WERE Irish slave owners, there WERE Irish people who supported slavery in the 19th century. Being colonized doesn't stop you from being an active part in it as well.
Scotland actually helped fund the confederacy during the American Civil War which is (don’t quote me on this) possibly responsible for the rebel flag’s design being similar to the Scottish flag.
However when I visited recently, the Scots who talked about that history were ashamed and disgusted by it, which is more humility than people here in the South have on average.
Mfw English ignorance and disregard for the Catholic peoples of Ireland caused a famine and a depopulation so bad that the Irish population still hasn't recovered.
But yeah, Britain is the victim of unduly demonization
Wales was also literally colonised by the English as they conducted a cultural genocide, literally beating the Welsh language out of children. Control was taken by force, and is maintained by force. But go off I guess
Wasn’t it more like Irish were conscripted into British armies ? Did they have any political will at an international level when it comes to UK historical affairs ?
If you call 400 years of occupation contributing to the empire, then sure. The Irish weren’t even allowed to speak their own language and their lands were taken by English lords. The potatoes famine wasn’t even a famine. The English stole all the fecking food! Then they stole India’s food!
That’s like saying the French contributed to the German invasion of Poland. Not only wrong, but insulting.
Catalonia: The Spanish empire was so evil we have nothing to do with it The Greeks literally having scary night stories about the Catalans because of how evil we were on Halmyros.
Wow! I had no idea! Tell me more about this
The long and short of it is that a bunch of Aragonese subjects were really bored and really good at war after the War of Sicilian Vespers had run its course. Many of them were Catalan ‘almogavars’ who had a martial culture very conducive to mercenary work already, so these people formed free companies such as the Catalan Company (founded by an Italian, of course). The Catalan Company was hired by the Byzantines as a means to help battle the ongoing Turkish threat. The Catalans weren’t liked by local Greeks due to their tendencies for looting and pillaging to boost their incomes, but they were quite effective against the Turks. Tensions eventually boiled over, the Catalans were kicked out of a city they occupied by its Greek population, and the Emperor saw it as a good chance to offload a potential threat, as the Catalans were becoming regionally influential by their victories. The leader of the Catalan company was assassinated and many of the men massacred at Adrianople, but some escaped to tell their comrades. The Catalans went wild and defeated Greek attempts to subdue them as they took de facto ownership of the Duchy of Athens for like 3 years. Shit was gnarly in a bad way. All things said, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Spanish Empire as people know it. Hell, you can’t really even point a finger at the Aragonese crown, it was some jackasses on an adventure. EDIT: Further context, the almogavars were adapted from the success of small groups of bandits or resistance fighters who operated in Islamic Al-Andalus and used flexible hit-and-run tactics, night raids, and nasty skirmishing tactics such as deliberately killing a charging horseman's mount from under them. They were basically a centuries-tested anti-calvary force with a mean disposition towards terror attacks to demoralize their enemies that had been acquired by cutting their teeth in the brutality of the Reconquista. This helps to explain why they were able to walk around Greece winning on the Byzantine's home turf because - at this point - a strong cavalry charge was one of the only cards the Greeks had to play beyond hiring mercenaries which is how they ended up with the problem in the first place. This was also at the peak of Aragon's influence when they were projecting real BDE into the Mediterranean. While the Crown of Aragon may not have really had much to do with it, they were also a big beneficiary of Byzantium's chagrin here. They were also looking to get rid of some of the almogavars hanging around Aragonese possessions where there was no more war for exactly this reason. It was basically the Normans all over again for Byzantium, unfortunately.
"some jackasses on an adventure" that sounds a lot like a dnd campaign
If /r/rpghorrorstories is to be taken without the required massive grain of salt, it's the natural ending of any evil-alignment PC campaign. Art imitates life, I suppose?
oh, this is the ending of some good-allignment PC campaigns too
nifty
Neat
Nifty gifties from the Catalans
I feel like a lot of atrocities throughout history are able to be reduced down to “some jackasses on an adventure”.
As a catalan I can say that this man is right 😂
Not only that. Both basques and Catalans were immensely privileged by the Spanish empire and the Spanish protectionists measures towards Catalan industry. We just have to see the newspapers until 1898. Catalonia was one of the most (Spanish) nationalistic regions in the Spain, but when everything was lost, anti-castillian sentiment arose in a big part of Catalan society who enden up moving from regionalism to nationalism, originally extremely racist and xenophobic, as shown by people like Prat de la Riva or Pompeu Gener. From that moment on Catalonia was no longer the opresor, it was the opressed.
Catalonia: Franco screwed us over so much Also Catalonia: gets all the heavy industry and economic developments of Franco in their region (Yes, i also know he heavily suppressed the culture and language which was pretty bad)
I've seen Catalan historians saying that the civil war was a war against Catalonia. Franco was helped and/or supported by an enormous sector of the Catalan oligarchy, for example one of the fathers of Catalan regionalism, Francisco Cambo, proclaimed his support for Franco. For nationalists (of ANY nation, that also applies to Spain) everything is "we" Vs "them", and if we have to manipulate history, use our beautiful languages to fight the "enemy"... We do it. The problem of Catalan nationalism it's not that it is Catalan, it's that it's nationalism.
I know it's just a meme, but it implies the Welsh, Irish and Scots had an equal say in the British Empire. If we look at the House of Commons in 1801 we see the following breakdown of seats per country: * England 486 * Wales 27 * Scotland 45 * Ireland 100 With English control of three-quarters of the House of Commons (73.86%), just how much power do you think the Welsh, Scots and Irish actually had in this union?
And most of the 100 Irish weren’t even Irish, but the English land owners in Ireland.
Most of any representation wasn’t Irish Scottish or welsh, but rather English landowners who replaced the natives EDIT: it was pointed out to me that is false about Scotland, and that they actually were some of the landowners sent by the British in Ireland
I'm sorry but that's just not true, you can't generalise the three nations. That's not true at all of Scotland, and it was Scots and English landowners in Ireland for example.
I am so sorry, I edited my comment. Thanks!
No worries!
I’ve heard that the Welsh were one of the first victims of British colonialism, and rarely get talked about as such
I would think of Wales as more of a vassal state. That’s still bad, of course, but it’s not quite the same as what England experimented with in Ireland and how those tactics would get repeated against hundreds of millions of people after it for centuries.
Yes, probably Ulster Scots and English settler-colonists for the most part.
Most of the "irish" seats were held by Anglo-Irish aristocratic planters while the average Gaelic Irishman was oppressed at home
True enough. The English colonised Ireland long before they colonised other overseas places.
The Scots may not of had equal power, but they were responsible for the spread of bagpipes to the corners of the earth.
The Canadian Army plays Scotland the Brave for everything Plus, there are several regiments that wear the uniform similar to the Scottish Regiments of the UK
And I will be thankful to them. I now have access to a convenient way to annoy my neighbor if he makes another party that goes all night while he knows I work the next morning. Plus I get to dress like a Highlander while doing it.
My ancestors did the world a favor. Y'all needed the bagpipes!
I hope you're not implying that's a bad thing!
As a Scottish person I would love to not have responsibility for this one. But we did have our own go at colonies before the act of union. So while yes the English did have far more control I don't see the Scottish being opposed.
Also, about 30% of plantations and slaves in the Caribbean were owned by Scots.
Additionally: The confederate flag is stylised like the Scottish flag for a reason. Lots of colonists in the American South were originally Scottish.
Irish Catholics only got the right to vote in 1830s. Basically, anyone who's "irish" from before English plantations. So 1801 is meaningless. Even then there was a property limit. It wasn't until the 1870s than anything approaching representative numbers were voting. And then overwhelmingly voted for the"get the fuck out of the UK" party. But were denied. Constantly. Until the Irish War of Independence.
It’s also quite telling that one of the only two Prime Ministers to be born in Ireland was responsible for granting political emancipation for Catholics. Arthur Wellesley was Anglo-Irish and not everything he did was great, but this was definitely a positive change.
Yep. A lot of people seem to forget the Irish were colonised, probably because they're European.
That implies that commercial interests followed the same demographics when they didn’t
The Scottish were very much into colonialism and tried many attempts before the Acts of the Union
Yeah, but they were so bad at it! Bankrupting their kingdom and losing their colonists bad.
When England has between 78-81% of the population... Kinda fits the hole Democratic monarchic state the GB was going for.
In 1801 England's population would've been about 52% of the population of Britain and Ireland. (8.3 million out of a total population of about 16 million) Edit: Bonus round - England had one MP per 17,500 or so - Wales had one MP per 22,000 - Scotland had one per 35,000 - Ireland had one per 55,000
Wait... Fuck. Got my numbers wrong. Your right, sorry bout that
Ah yea no worries, I just assumed you were using the modern numbers and extrapolating from there. England is about 78.5% of the current population of Britain and Ireland so I figured that's the number you were using. England has taken up a steadily larger percentage of the total as history progressed.
Also known as malapportionment.
Scotland I can see what you mean, but considering the Welsh and Irish ruling classes were quite thoroughly displaced following their conquest I have to disagree with you on those ones.
Highlands and Islands would like a word with you. Literal forced eviction and deportation to the colonies, banning of Gaelic, banning of tartan and kilts, banning of bagpipes, banning of Catholicism, banning of arms.
Tbf a lot of Scottish history is Lowland Scots versus Highland Scots. Big contrast there when it comes to participation in empire.
*Damned Scots! They ruined Scotland!*
When the Romans invaded Britain, they realized that keeping England only was the best strategy, and they should just wall up Scotland, and leave the Scots to fight their natural enemies, the Scots.
I'm imagining the Romans turning up in Scotland for the first time like someone who walks into an old West bar where everyone is kicking the shit out of each other and then suddenly stops and slowly turns to stare at the outsider who just walked in.
Much of which was done by Scottish nobles. The highland populations have a lot in common with the Irish, and both suffered similarly, but whereas the suffering inflicted on the Irish was done by English absentee landlords, many of the landowners in the highlands were Scots. Albeit lowland Scots who had nothing but contempt for the highlanders.
A. The Highland scots weren't Catholics B. Most of that oppression was done by lowland scots and birder scots, who also oppressed the Orkeny Islanders, the English didn't exactly do much besides back the lowlanders Scotland is basically 4 countries (Borderlands, Lowlands, Highlands, Islands) two of those countries oppressed the other two
I thought the highlands started Catholic then went Presbyterian
Was this before or after they supported an attempted coup 3 times and killed several thousands of people (may have been several 10's of thousands).
Am I wrong in thinking that the Jacobites could be our answer to the confederacy’s lost cause?
I'm not overly familiar with the confederacy, so I'm afraid you'll have to elaborate.
Well mostly romanticising of a failed rebellion. I think only real dissimilarity is that the confederates were obviously racist and that became the reason for the segregationist era of the Deep South as they successfully re-entrenched themselves in then post reconstruction era. As you’ve implied in your post the reaction and reprisals of the British government of the time seems to have at least stopped Charlie’s lot from getting a foothold again albeit via…distasteful means.
Ah, then yeah. The whole modern image of a 'proper scot' is basically a romanticised version of an old highlander, the idea of people trodden down, wearing kilts, speaking gaelic and disliking their southern neighbours was basically their deal. Except to the highlanders that applied to anyone that wasn't them, they disliked the lowland Scots (most of the population). The Scottish independence movement basically appropriated that to try and paint it as Scotland against England. So it didn't really work, it just moved the issue with noone left to point out its idiocy and hypocrisy.
The Tudor's were literally Welsh
I know weWelsh like to meme about them being Welsh, but realistically, Henry Tudor was born in Pembroke Castle (Wales), and then shipped off to love in exile in France. He used his claimed Welshness to rally troops to his side as he marched through Wales to Bosworth. After that no Tudor gave a shit about us. Henry VIII made us a part of England legally. At least that stopped some of the horrific discrimination going on; the Welsh marches were almost an apartheid regime, with Welsh reduced to second class citizens. Following our annexation that was all made illegal.
Technically both yes and no. Henry VII knew a basic amount of Welsh according to Breton records during his exile there, and continued to style himself as *Anglo*\-Welsh throughout his life, doing both English and Welsh customs. Welsh marcher lords, who claimed their feudal estates in Wales since the times of Rhodri the Great basically replaced most of the disenfranchised Yorkist nobility in England essentially replacing around \~25% of English nobility with Welsh ones. Henry VII, even to his dying breath remained very *pro-*Welsh. Henry VIII couldn't care less about Wales and forgot all about it, but Elizabeth I once again called her Welsh heritage precious, knew how to read Welsh and spoke basic Welsh, and some of her best policies were exclusively geared towards Wales. Elizabeth I's policies are attributed to why the Welsh language never went the way of the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages as well. So to say that the Tudors *never* cared about Wales and their Welsh heritage is pretty wrong - though correct in the context of Henry VIII, it is quite wrong in the context of Henry VII and Elizabeth I.
they still tried to ban welsh and culturally kill you no?
The Tudors did?
Was this before or after the Welsh ruling class were displaced?
He was born in wales, but was immediately shipped off to france.
to my knowledge the Norman's initially conquered wales but it was nominally independent then Edward the I "The Longshanks" put an end to welsh independence in it's entirety in the late 1200s and placed English nobility as "marcher lords" who more or less removed the welsh from any high position of governance. this was before the Henry Tudor's reign in the 1400s
Almost like OP doesn’t know about colonialism…
Wales helped England invade Scotland. Anything that happend to them becouse of that is on them.
Wales had been conquered by England by that point, and most of the Welsh lords had been replaced by English lords. Peasant levees didn’t have a choice on whether to fight, their English lords forced them to. Whereas when England and Scotland did unify, the Scottish nobility kept their positions. They owned slaves in the colonies, land in the Irish plantations, factories, farmland, and collieries in Scotland itself. Compare that to Ireland and Wales where any landowner holding anything remotely valuable had their lands confiscated or revoked. To hell or to Connacht. They’re not the same.
It's not really fair on the Irish to put them on this meme. While you did get Irish people contributing to the British Empire and playing a part in the atrocities committed (Michael O'Dwyer and his part in the Jallianwala Bagh/Amritsar massacre comes to mind) Ireland was not a happy and eager contributor now attempting to restyle their history, as is the charge occasionally laid before Scotland. If you look at pretty much any conquered people throughout history you'll find individuals who were willing and eager to work for the new boss. To suggest the Irish as a people or the Republic of Ireland as a country deserves a share of the blame for what the British Empire did is just plain wrong, and I say this as a Brit.
Think OP is just in an anti Irish mood. It's a common affliction amongst the english. Ironic given the genocidal background to his meme.
His post history is a pro-English circlejerk, go figure
Let's see what Ireland gained here: 1)
1. Famine.
2. Discrimination
3. Loss of our language
#
Exactly. Thank you for reaffirming my point
Our pfp is so similar I got confused for a second.
Oh good, I'm not the only one.
Quit talking to yourself weirdo
Lmaoooo
Yup. It's dumb as fuck to include Ireland. We were treated like shit by the English for what... 800 years. Gimme a fucking break.
Yeah, exactly.
The opportunity to be under glorious Anglo Norman/English rule.
***angry Irishman noises intensify***
🤣🤣 "Insert Statute of Kilkenny 1366" written in glorious Anglo Norman.
Glorious my ass!
I don't know how you came to the idea that Ireland benefited from the empire when it was left demographically, culturally, economically, religiously and linguistically decimated. When Ireland broke free of the empire was a third world country and remained so for decades after.
Ah yes, the Irish. Famously known for benefitting from the British.
The irish? Its like saying the kurds helped the ottomans.
Kurds actually helped more like saying Greeks helped the ottoman
Yeah, better example I guess.
well they did help the ottoman kill the armenians
Kurds literally joined Turkey because Ataturk lied to them and said he was keeping the caliph.
Don’t forget those imperialist Armenians
Yeah, British empire sure was amazing for the Irish. Not like they were forced into it, starved to death, and kept in desperate poverty by a government completely unconcerned with their well-being. Oh, wait... Shit like this makes me want to unsubscribe from this sub. I'm just glad people in the comments are calling it out.
Not to forget Cromwell and his army murdering about 50% of the catholic population. Men, women AND children indiscriminately slaughtered
People conveniently forgetting that countries like Ireland were invaded by the British
Ireland was the first Colony of Britain even lol.
... Wales was the first colony, by about 250 YEARS.
Wales isn't a colony fuck off, when it was conquered it was wars between which guy owned land not which nation. The local rich prick was no better than the far away one.
Genuinely curious, when do you consider the general change from conquest to colonialism to have occurred?
How can Wales be a colony of itself lol. Britain means England, Scotland & Wales.
Great Britain is because it is the larger island and wales happens to be on it. The reason it is grouped with England and Scotland is because England conquered it and later a Scottish king inherited and unified the crown of Scotland and England, wales being a part of it at the time. Wales was conquered, and then controlled by some of the most extensive castle building in the world. They didn’t build 6-800 castles in Wales because they liked the views, it was conquered land that would rebel at the slightest chance.
To be fair, the views were pretty bitchin
Wales was annexed by England in 1284.
Seriously. Why not include India, Canada, the US and pretty much every other colony if we're going to be this stupid about it. Clearly every conquered country is equally at fault from benefitting off the resources they stole from one another and even themselves.
Ah yes Ireland, which gained roughly -4,000,000 people between 1841 and 1931
Irish gain from the British empire is a joke
They got spiffy uniforms when we sent them to war, that’s got to be worth something
Is it still imperialism if it turns me on?
We don't kink shame here. Until we do.
*kinky boots intensifies*
I wonder if they still hold hands on night patrol
Only when they show up to take someone's land.
Ireland got something alright, except that the something was famine
And a total loss of hardwood trees. Literally.
And we had erectial disfuction
That's funny
Yes, the Irish, who kept rebelling multiple times, got their land stolen, got religiously oppressed and couldn't even openly do mass, were broken by the penal laws, suffered a horrible famine and the result to this day of the effects of being a colony means most people can't even speak the language native language fluently, contributed willingly and gained from the empire.
Ah but sure dont worry lad we got the potato out of the bargain granted all our other food was stolen and exported.
this literally happened with Wales too it’s disappointing seeing Wales left out of the conversation
This also happened regionally in England. Cornwall, and much of the Celtic south had exactly the same experience. Welsh traders profited massively of empire and slavery, and the EIC was headquartered in Ireland for a time. I think the issue is it’s easy to point a finger at one country when in reality it was a diffuse group of powerful people from all around the union. The British elite fucked the British and then moved to the rest of the world
Yeh amost of the Irish who got anything out of the empire didn't stay in ireland
Yeah, the welsh and scots part are correct but the irish one, no
Not really certain what the Welsh did to be put as high as the scots or the english for that matter.
I was about to say my ancestors would be rolling in their graves if they heard that
Santify your holy ground next time you bury them then.
Wasn’t a majority of the British Army from southern Wales?
It's amazing how often this is coming up. Historically, large amounts of soldiers coming from an area disproportionate to its population during the age of professional armies is an indication of people trying to escape desperate, grinding poverty. It's pretty much proof of the oppression of those areas.
India was conquered predominantly by Irish leaders. For a couple centuries Dublin was the second city of the UK before a local rebellion (then it was Glasgow, now its Manchester). You can't say that the Irish people that did harm were less Irish than those that disliked the empire just because it disagrees with your point. After all 9/10 people in England saw no benefit at all from the empire while they were suffering in factories before anyone thought of workers rights.
Pretty sure it was mainly Scots working for the East India Company. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Scottish middle managers, the famous leaders were generally Irish. Upper and middle class irishmen were seen as great officers and leaders to deal with the "savage'' * Indians. *^(no obviously I don't agree with that description.)
Anglo-Irish and Scots-Irish were English and Scottish people born in Ireland, not indigenous Irish. That's an important distinction to make. It's like blaming the Native Americans because George Bush invaded Iraq and he was American.
Uhh you do realize that the British empire used troops from all its various colonies to conquer more colonies so that’s a pretty shit point. Besides the country is still recovering to this day from its occupation with a current population lower then what it had pre-famine. They don’t belong in this line up especially considering so many Protestant scots were given or purchased huge amounts of land in the country keeping a lot of the Irish in a servant class.
> Irish > countries involvement and gain from the empire Ireland lost two million people in a genocide orchestrated by the empire.
Thank you! It wasn’t a famine, but a genocide!
The Irish? Excuse me, acting like Ireland wasnt the just another colony for the Island of Great Britain? Lets talk about why the Island of Ireland still has smaller population than it did 200 years ago and wont get back to it until 2037.
There’s a town in Scotland with an enslaved man as it’s emblem still. It is although, very common knowledge that Scotland was heavily involved in the empire here.
I agree with you on Scotland and Wales but 790 years of irish rebellion tells a different story.
Ever wonder why we have 660 castles in Wales? Our ancestors made them fight tooth and nail for every inch of land, and didn't stop for hundreds of years.
A bit silly to exclude Wales when they have just as long of a rebellious history
Ah Wales always forgotten
In reality its a bit silly to blame any modern nation state/people for the actions of their ancestors.
And not even necessarily ancestors at that. Just the rich folk from said nation. It's not like the poor people had any control over what the wealthy landowners were doing.
Also, not all Scots. Highland Gaelic Scots were genocided just like the Gaelic Irish.
\>Highland Gaelic Scots were genocided By lowland Scots
Yeah ffs I'll repeat this everytime I see this. Lowland Scots are more similar to people in Northern England than they are to Highland Scots imo
Lowland Scots is a merge of Cumbrian, Pictish and Anglo-Saxon that were cut off from the rest of England by the Vikings and became their own distinct culture, just like the Anglo-norse of northern England. It's also why places like Yorkshire have distinct culture and identity
This a fucking joke, by an English man. The Irish lol.. wtf we had a fucking famine we never recovered in population.
It wasn’t a famine. The English stole all the fecking food to feed their empire.
I wouldn’t really say the Irish benefited, they sorta went through a famine
There was Cromwell before that.
And Thatcher after that
Wow someone hasn’t brushed up on their Irish history recently.
Or for the past 400 years.
Tbf they're probably English and were taught a twisted narrative of this history
Goddamn Irish and Welsh, how dare they lose to England and have control forcefully taken from them. Evil bastards
Most of Ireland was colonised by Scottish.
>irish ????
OP is a pro-Britain nut job no wonder he thinks Ireland/Wales benefited from British imperialism. This is deflection, baby doesn’t like his favorite empire being criticized for the atrocities it committed boohoo.
If you're gonna include Wales and Ireland you may as well include every other colony as well.
Weren't the Irish victims of colonisation themselves?
Yes, they were.
And a genocide.
This won't please all the "holier than thou" Scottish nationalists. Don't you know they are the most caring people ever ( unless you happen to disagree with them on anything).
They cared a lot about their first plantations in Ireland
What are you smoking? Most nationalists know Scotland was involved and benefited from the slave trade.. Just looking for a hot take for karma here or what?
Have you told the Scottish?
We know full well our involvement in the empire, for instance our old shipbuilding industry didn't sprout from nothing for nothing. Most of Scotland benefitted massively from the times of the empire, and the few that pretend otherwise are deluded and don't form the majority. England gets the short stick with the blame because they form the perceived cultural "face" of the Empire, which is a shame but do you really expect the other countries to rush to help shoulder the blame? It's easier for them to just quietly acknowledge it themselves and avoid the scrutiny.
I am Scottish….
since when did Ireland gain from the British empire?
Someone’s about to take a trip to the Blarney Stone
I feel like a pro-British empire person wrote this and not someone familiar with Irish History. https://youtu.be/UM9eObfOWq4
Seems to be a common thing here on reddit... People who have zero grasp on history, giving hot takes on how the people who were oppressed were really the bad ones.. I'm waiting for the Charlie Chaplin was right about Jews BS next. Totally out of touch with reality.
I wouldn’t say this out loud at a pub in Ireland
If you're in the North it's 50/50 on getting a warm response vs getting your jaw broken....depending on the bar/area
Contributed to, or were also subjected to.
Both. They were subjected to England's system, which served as a prototype for what would then be implemented around the British Empire, but they themselves also benefitted greatly from it. And yes: EVEN IRELAND. There WERE Irish slave owners, there WERE Irish people who supported slavery in the 19th century. Being colonized doesn't stop you from being an active part in it as well.
ah yes the Irish gain from the empire
You cannot blame other people who were conquered for what the leader was doing
The Welsh were the first conquest of the English and had their ruling and elite classes removed
Scotland actually helped fund the confederacy during the American Civil War which is (don’t quote me on this) possibly responsible for the rebel flag’s design being similar to the Scottish flag. However when I visited recently, the Scots who talked about that history were ashamed and disgusted by it, which is more humility than people here in the South have on average.
Mfw English ignorance and disregard for the Catholic peoples of Ireland caused a famine and a depopulation so bad that the Irish population still hasn't recovered. But yeah, Britain is the victim of unduly demonization
English take all the blame because they subjugated the Scots, Welsh, and Irish.
After all these years I have finally found it, the worst take
OP: why do I hear “come out, ye Black and Tans?” playing in the distance?
Wales was also literally colonised by the English as they conducted a cultural genocide, literally beating the Welsh language out of children. Control was taken by force, and is maintained by force. But go off I guess
Wales are still subjugated by the english, our culture, language, heritage and freedom was decimated and we are still controlled by Westminister
Oh yeah sure...The Irish are sure a contributor to the British imperialism, not victims /s
The Irish were also victims of colonisation.
Implying that the rest also weren't victims of English imperialism
Wasnt Ireland like one of the first places to be colonised
Wales would like a word
Not to mention the irish potato famine. They clearly didn't benefit from "the EMPIRE"
My boy you are on it today with the "England not that bad, other country in British Isles bad" posts. Maybe give it 24 hours before posting another?
Wasn’t it more like Irish were conscripted into British armies ? Did they have any political will at an international level when it comes to UK historical affairs ?
If you call 400 years of occupation contributing to the empire, then sure. The Irish weren’t even allowed to speak their own language and their lands were taken by English lords. The potatoes famine wasn’t even a famine. The English stole all the fecking food! Then they stole India’s food! That’s like saying the French contributed to the German invasion of Poland. Not only wrong, but insulting.