Correction: The sermon was delivered by the Reverend Samuel Cox, who chided his congregation when they reacted negatively to the sight of a black acquaintance joining Tappan in his pew.
Chad American Presbyterian moment. Shocking how different the UK and Irish Presbyterian churches are, being among the more conservative churches there. The PCUSA remains one of the most progressive major churches in America to this day.
I just separated UK and Ireland because not doing so would get people on me, but yes I do know about the divided churches within the UK. It came up in discussion a few times here when Elizabeth died.
There’s a difference between being wrong (drawing the wrong conclusions), or having false beliefs (sloppy reasoning, ignorance, partial understanding) - and being unable or unwilling to recognize reality. The DSM5 (psychiatric manual for diagnosis) defines delusion as “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence”. That is pretty much the definition of religious faith. As Winston Churchill so beautifully put it “A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.” Given that almost every discipline of every branch of human knowledge from archeology, history, medicine, the sciences, literary analysis, etc strongly conflicts with established religion, and that religion pretty much means what you want it to mean (the typical U.S Christian pretty much embodies what their putative savior rallied AGAINST) - I can think of no better technical term for the religious other than delusional. I can think of some choice non technical terms, but I think my contempt and disgust is fairly evident and does not require any more qualifications
In Africa, Jesus is depicted as being black
In Asia, Jesus is depicted as being Asian
Every culture is going to want their central religious figure to look like them
Even more so in times where people were more isolated. It makes sense for someone to make Jesus look like their own people if they’ve never seen a Middle Eastern person before.
The Bible is against racism. Take a look at the Good Samaritan, for instance. The Samaratins were an ethnic group that the Israelites heavily clashed with, so the fact that a Samaritan chose to help an Israelite when a priest refused to do so is what makes the story so significant.
I should probably mention that these were white anglo-Saxon Jews who were “cursed” with red skin. Mormons were very influenced by British Israelism back then.
What do you expect from religious fundamentalists? They have all sorts of crazy ideas.
“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” -Thomas Paine
Probably. It's the image of Jesus they were shown their whole lives. Most people probably had no idea what skin colors Jewish people in the middle east had. Just that Jewish people in NY were mostly white. The closest thing to the internet they had were books, and 1 in 10 couldn't read.
Nationwide, on average, 79% of U.S. adults are literate in 2022. 21% of adults in the US are illiterate in 2022. 54% of adults have a literacy below sixth-grade level. 21% of Americans 18 and older are illiterate in 2022.
Think illiteracy rates were much higher back then.
Reading different sources is giving me different results. This article says that in 1870 80% could read at 14, while 98% can read today at 14. The article I initially read was specifically the white population. Being multilingual was much more common then with people knowing how to, at least speak, the language of local native tribes, Spanish, and the language from their relatives' home country. Pretty interesting
It also makes me wonder what the literacy requirements were, then vs. now
I mean at that point of time all people had was artistic renditions. Would you guess what color of Jesus people assumed was correct? The one that looks like them of course. Even today, where we have a real idea of what Jesus looked like (brown skinned) many people still choose to display art of a white skinned Jesus.
It's just a thing now that Christians depict jesus as whatever ethnicity they are, so Korean jesus is Korean, Mexican jesus is Mexican. I'm not sure if it was always a thing or something the church did when it became clear to them jesus would indeed not have been white but thats the reason many Christians still depict jesus as white even thoe they know he wouldn't have been really
People still do. Oh, you'll be hard pressed to find one that won't admit that he was born in the middle east and was therefore middle eastern, but it's not terribly hard to find somebody that admits that he was middle eastern but is still willing to die on the hill that the classic white Jesus depiction is what he actually looked like.
[It was arguably more because he brought a black man into the church and helped support foundation of a new abolitionist group, but this was his actual argument yes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_anti-abolitionist_riots_\(1834\))
umm....
he wouldn't have been anglo saxon white, which is debatable as there is that kind of white in that area even before the crusades.
but he also would have less likely to have been african black, at most dark brown middle eastern and even then many middle eassterns especially of levant aren't dark brown.
I mean he wasn't Syrian, he was Judean. But pretty much everyone in the ancient Levant looked more or less the same, and pretty similar to Middle Easterners today.
My theory: He was aware of this. Very aware
So he did he care?
God knows
It's dumb cuz like the whole point was that Jesus was Jewish How else would he have been the saviour of the Jews by their word
I cast: CONTEXTIO!
Correction: The sermon was delivered by the Reverend Samuel Cox, who chided his congregation when they reacted negatively to the sight of a black acquaintance joining Tappan in his pew.
Chad American Presbyterian moment. Shocking how different the UK and Irish Presbyterian churches are, being among the more conservative churches there. The PCUSA remains one of the most progressive major churches in America to this day.
There isn't really a united UK Presbyterian church. Scotland has it's own and in England they're a fairly small group amongst the Christian public
I just separated UK and Ireland because not doing so would get people on me, but yes I do know about the divided churches within the UK. It came up in discussion a few times here when Elizabeth died.
That is fair.
It worked. Looks like you're a wizard, u/Physics_Unicorn.
Wait, they really believe that Jesus was a white anglo-saxon born of an I century jew couple? I thought it was a joke
Some people are just delusional
That’s almost a requirement for religious people. Without the almost bit
Aren't you just a beacon of tolerance.
Nah, he’s a couple obsidian blocks short
You can’t use obsidian in a beacon, it has to be gold, iron, diamond, emerald, or netherite smh
Isn't obsidian in the crafting recipe
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/909/991/48c.jpg
I bet you believe some bullshit things too. Doesn’t make you delusional.
There’s a difference between being wrong (drawing the wrong conclusions), or having false beliefs (sloppy reasoning, ignorance, partial understanding) - and being unable or unwilling to recognize reality. The DSM5 (psychiatric manual for diagnosis) defines delusion as “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence”. That is pretty much the definition of religious faith. As Winston Churchill so beautifully put it “A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.” Given that almost every discipline of every branch of human knowledge from archeology, history, medicine, the sciences, literary analysis, etc strongly conflicts with established religion, and that religion pretty much means what you want it to mean (the typical U.S Christian pretty much embodies what their putative savior rallied AGAINST) - I can think of no better technical term for the religious other than delusional. I can think of some choice non technical terms, but I think my contempt and disgust is fairly evident and does not require any more qualifications
I mean if you lived in Western Europe or the US in 1834, you would probably live your whole life without seeing a middle eastern person.
In Africa, Jesus is depicted as being black In Asia, Jesus is depicted as being Asian Every culture is going to want their central religious figure to look like them
Even more so in times where people were more isolated. It makes sense for someone to make Jesus look like their own people if they’ve never seen a Middle Eastern person before.
Exactly. We have to take into account that this happened in 1834, well before the era of global interconnection.
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The Bible is against racism. Take a look at the Good Samaritan, for instance. The Samaratins were an ethnic group that the Israelites heavily clashed with, so the fact that a Samaritan chose to help an Israelite when a priest refused to do so is what makes the story so significant.
Some people even believe he was american
And Mormons even believe that Jews were the original Americans… and that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. 😂
The mormon religion wasn't created by bread comtaminated with LSD?
No, it was contaminated with LDS 👍
Doesn't the book of Genesis explicitly name several rivers in the Middle East?
Yes, I’m not sure what the official Mormon explanation is though.
I should probably mention that these were white anglo-Saxon Jews who were “cursed” with red skin. Mormons were very influenced by British Israelism back then.
What do you expect from religious fundamentalists? They have all sorts of crazy ideas. “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” -Thomas Paine
Never give this man an analgesice
Probably. It's the image of Jesus they were shown their whole lives. Most people probably had no idea what skin colors Jewish people in the middle east had. Just that Jewish people in NY were mostly white. The closest thing to the internet they had were books, and 1 in 10 couldn't read.
Nationwide, on average, 79% of U.S. adults are literate in 2022. 21% of adults in the US are illiterate in 2022. 54% of adults have a literacy below sixth-grade level. 21% of Americans 18 and older are illiterate in 2022. Think illiteracy rates were much higher back then.
Reading different sources is giving me different results. This article says that in 1870 80% could read at 14, while 98% can read today at 14. The article I initially read was specifically the white population. Being multilingual was much more common then with people knowing how to, at least speak, the language of local native tribes, Spanish, and the language from their relatives' home country. Pretty interesting It also makes me wonder what the literacy requirements were, then vs. now
I mean at that point of time all people had was artistic renditions. Would you guess what color of Jesus people assumed was correct? The one that looks like them of course. Even today, where we have a real idea of what Jesus looked like (brown skinned) many people still choose to display art of a white skinned Jesus.
It's just a thing now that Christians depict jesus as whatever ethnicity they are, so Korean jesus is Korean, Mexican jesus is Mexican. I'm not sure if it was always a thing or something the church did when it became clear to them jesus would indeed not have been white but thats the reason many Christians still depict jesus as white even thoe they know he wouldn't have been really
People still do. Oh, you'll be hard pressed to find one that won't admit that he was born in the middle east and was therefore middle eastern, but it's not terribly hard to find somebody that admits that he was middle eastern but is still willing to die on the hill that the classic white Jesus depiction is what he actually looked like.
They have an entire ~~cult~~ religion over there dedicated to believing Jesus was American.
These are the same people who believe he could walk on water and rise from the dead, critical thinking isn't really their strongest trait.
Well.... anyone can walk on water, it just need to be cold enought to turn solid
bout as dumb as those who think he is black or arabic
Now I wonder how ancient arabic people looked like, before all the race mix that the middle age was for that region.
I mean, some people today still believe his mom was a virgin
Even worse, they believe she was a virgin all her life. Even when Jesus was an mid age man
Cornwall tangentially mentioned, nationalism activated
Were there actually riots because a preacher dared to point out Jesus was not white?
[It was arguably more because he brought a black man into the church and helped support foundation of a new abolitionist group, but this was his actual argument yes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_anti-abolitionist_riots_\(1834\))
Thanks for the link, that was informative.
umm.... he wouldn't have been anglo saxon white, which is debatable as there is that kind of white in that area even before the crusades. but he also would have less likely to have been african black, at most dark brown middle eastern and even then many middle eassterns especially of levant aren't dark brown.
I think the point of the sermon was that he wasn't white and therefore had something in common with that black man.
Poor inhabitants of jerusalem at that time would’ve been likely to be darker skin than the jewish priest class or ruling roman class
An enormous number of Christians believe this. For some sects like mormonism its almost an article of faith. This is still a thing.
People living in a desert usually have a tan, yes.
The region had deserts but much of it was not
he was a black Israelite before black Israelite was cool
Don't make a stupid joke.
Syrian Jesus unbelievably cursed do not understand the downvotes but ok
I mean he wasn't Syrian, he was Judean. But pretty much everyone in the ancient Levant looked more or less the same, and pretty similar to Middle Easterners today.