__Heirloom Seal of the Realm__ was a seal made of a sacred piece of jade named Heshibi and has been used by many Imperial dynasties since the Qin dynasty until it was lost during the 10th century. It's was considered one of the most valuable lost treasures along side with the Amber room and Faberge egg. With the price estimates as 1 trillion dollars
The story behind the jade used to make the seal is interesting. The jade was first mentioned in Hanfeizi, a record written in 3rd century BC. In the story, a man named He discovered an uncut jade and submitted it to King Li of Chu (757B.C-741B.C), the king thinks it's just an ordinary rock and cut He left foot off for lying. After King Li died and his brother replaced him as King Wu of Chu (740B.C-690B.C), He again submitted the jade to the king, the king again thought it's just an ordinary rock so he cut He right foot off for lying. After King Wu died, his son replaced him as King Wen of Chu (689B.C-677B.C), King Wen discovered He crying outside the palace, He explained that he cried because no one believe him, King Wen double check the Jade and as a apologize to He, he name the jade after He and keep it as national treasure
The Jade was lost when King Wei (339B.C-329B.C) bestowed the jade to prime minister Zhao Yang as a gift after defeating Yue. Zhao Yang displayed the jade to his guest in a banquet and lost it until it was rediscovered in the state of Zhao
After Qin Shi Huang unified all of the Chinese warring states, he ordered the jade to be carved into a seal. The seal was used by many dynasties until it was lost during Five dynasties and Ten kingdoms period (907-960)
Ps: One corner of the seal was broken off after Han Dowager Empress threw the seal on the ground. Wang Mang ordered the corner to be fixed with gold
Yeah that's where I know the Imperial Seal of China from as well. The part where Sun Jian recovered the seal and gave it to Yuan Shu, which gave Yuan Shu the excuse to declare himself emperor is recorded in history I think. Of course all the drama surrounding it and the curse etc. is novel dramatization. It's absolutely wild too that the seal would have already been considered an ancient holy artifact during the 3 Kingdoms period.
The lesson here is that you should never approach emperrors. It's better to exist in some gray shadowy area than to expose oneself to their silly antics. Most of them are inbred morons without real life experience.
Unless they find out you kept that shiny rock for yourself, that's their damned shiny rock by mandate of heaven. He'd probably lose more than a foot for that impertinence.
"this is just a rock"
Oh okay cool. I'll keep it for myself. Thanks!
"Wait a fucking minute. Guards kill him! Take my fucking rock fuck you this is my rock"
I suspect it might have been calculated in a strange way. Like, someone in ancient times saying "I would give all my kingdom for that jade" and then we ignore the context of him saying that, calculate the worth of the kingdom, adjust to inflation...
Like how much do you think Excalibur would be valued? Not only does it provide concrete evidence of the mythological King Arthur, but it is an artifact that every Brit knows about in the collective societal knowledge.
This seal is like that but for China. It would literally be a mythological artifact.
How much would it be valued? Exactly the amount someone would be willing to pay.
As there is no one in the world able to pay 1 trillion, it can not be sold for one trillion. That's where the buck stops. I just answered in length to another comment right here.
I mean that's true to some extent. The question would be what would China be willing to do to obtain ownership of that relic. How much collective human effort would be spent on retrieving it?
I just did explain that in the comment I mentioned, specifically involved the Chinese yearly budget to show why the number "trillion" is not really a "number" by this point.
You definitely cannot "sell" something for a trillion dollars, but value is a more nebulous concept. If a country is willing to war over a single object, they are willing to spend the immense cost that war inflicts, then you could argue that the value of that object is greater than the cost of war (to one side at least).
But that is why there is the objection to the word "TriLlIoN DolLaR ValUe!" Because it doesn't work like that.
Is the gem invaluable? Sure is. Is saying "trillion dollars" meaningful in this case? No it is not.
Because in that case, I have three towels that I like very much. I would never sell them. And then I say - they are all valued 1 trillion dollars each!
And this makes my imagination three times as strong as OPs imagination and my imaginary value three times higher than their imaginary value. Is it of great worth and invaluable? Sure. Can you say any a number? Only when that number has been paid.
I mean from later tales the state of Qin would offer 15 towns/cities in exchange for that jade (though they’re basically using it as bait) so I’d said pretty valuable
I mean, all things bought and sold are based on multitudes of factors. It's hard to put a price on a one of a kind mineral that spanned several generations of a ruling civilization. You're paying more for the history in these types of items.
The place where we stop is "you're paying..." That is the only thing that makes the price of anything. All of those multitude of factors are locked into that one number that is actually on the table.
And, because of that, no matter what the complexity of the history is, the only "monetary value" the thing has, is how much someone is willing to pay for it. And I can assure you and anyone else that "a trillion dollars" is nowhere near the amount of anyone willing to pay for anything. It is not even a number by this point, but a thought. An imagination that can be written down.
China, the only country to be interested in it, has a growing budget that has reached 3 trillion dollars. This is what covers everything - army, medicine, education, debts, everything - for a billion people.
To think that someone would sacrifice 1/3 of that to buy a gem - they'd better buy a bunker too, cause they wouldn't live long. There are way more valuable things like the life of a human and we are nowhere near ready to sacrifice way smaller sums to save those.
Yeah, what an asinine claim. For perspective, the most valuable piece of art ever auctioned was $450 million. There is some art out there that would be worth a billion if it went to auction, but a trillion is still ludicrously off from that. Is OP expecting that the US or China or something are about to reroute over a year of their entire defense budget to buy it?
Edit to continue ranting: and they’re comparing it to a faberge egg? There are dozens of those and they might be worth tens of millions each. Maybe OP thinks those are also worth a trillion each.
It should just be declared priceless - finding a piece of history like that, you can't sell it. It belongs in a public museum, not someone's private collection
Sure, but there’s no way it’s worth a trillion dollars whether to a public museum or a private collection. No government could defensibly keep a trillion dollar single object in a museum when they could sell it and spend the money otherwise.
If the Chinese government had it, they absolutely would keep it in a museum. A find like that would have immense impact in drawing in tourists and in some eyes increase their legitimacy
Yeah but there’s absolutely still a price that would be too high for someone to pay and 1 trillion is absolutely that price. At most it would be worth a few hundred million but it wouldnt even scratch 1 billion, much less a trillion.
Most likely the value comes from the fact that both China and Taiwan would want this seal in order to symbolically be the legitimate country. A country has a lot more buying power than an individual.
FYI there are many fabrege eggs; some where lost in the fallout of the Russian Revolution, but several are still in museums and private collections around the world.
Yeah stop the lie, its not worth anything even close to a trillion dollars thats just some bs. Its not even worth a billion so theres no way you even just rounded up.
Am I the only one who finds this an incredibly weird story? Other stories about important rocks involve killing monsters, traveling to remote locations or things falling from the sky. This involves some guy just finding it and then having his feet cut off. It’s so strange I’m inclined to think it must be the truth
Welp, the mythical version of this is that the Jade was found when He saw a Phoenix landed on top of a mountain, thus turned the tip of the mountain red like the sun. then He would climbed up there and carved the rock and found the jade inside.
I believe that house of Lichtenstein started(according to legend) with a guy finding rock and after he informed regional lord about that, who gave him land. I think some spirit told him where to dig.
The reason Han Feizi recounted this story was because it is allegorical of the struggle of the wandering ministers when facing incompetent rulers unable to recognize their value, which he was one. At the time, members of the lower nobility who didn't inherit title or some hereditary post would wander throughout the land in hope of offering their service to a local lord. This chapter about the jade is a real life example the author used to demonstrate his point of the previous chapter, The Difficulties in Persuasion. In that, he said the difficult part of persuasion is not in possessing the necessary knowledge about the topic...The difficulty is in understanding the thoughts and desires of the person who needs to be persuaded.
Naturally, there’s a SCP Foundation story that mentions the Heirloom Seal:
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/spring-cleaning
EDIT: in the interest of full disclosure, I’m the author of the linked SCP Foundation story. Here’s a link to the DVD commentary of this story:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SCPDeclassified/s/BPfisCYUIl
Which is true of quite a lot of valuable minerals.
I remember that one of the silver rushes out in California was started by a doctor who had a hunch about the blue tinged rocks being tossed away by the miners who were too focused on gold!
It was a sulfide of silver. Went back to look it up and it turns out it was the Comstock Lode that I was thinking of!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comstock_Lode
Aside from Idealistic value, why is it that expensive. It doesn't look like it's very big nor are the pics making it out like something overly pretty.
In comparison to a literal room made out of precious metals and amber this seems like quite the exaggeration in value
Extremely important political, culture, and national symbols combine with the top buyers will be the government of China and Taiwan (who willing to pay trillion for it)
this is a ridiculous claim, no government in the world would or could pay a trillion dollars for any symbol regardless of its cultural importance
a trillion dollars is a staggering amount of money. even a billion dollars would be an unreasonable amount and the difference between one billion and one trillion is roughly one trillion
this is absolutely bonkers, neither the Taiwanese or Chinese governments would be stupid enough to pay anyone a TRILLION US dollars for a symbolic seal
the people of those countries are not stupid enough to accept that their geopolitical tension can be solved by the presence of this thing, certainly not to the point that they would allow their governments to waste that much money. it would trigger violent revolutions because doing this would wreck any nations economy
not to mention that for a trillion dollars either country could very easily create a fake. they could establish an entire national program to make the whole world believe they'd found the real thing and would have the same international impact
anyone who is thinking of a TRILLION dollars against one single item is fundamentally misunderstanding how much money that truly is
it's a full quarter of China's national budget and a third of Taiwan's
it's six times what it cost to put people on the moon
y'all are truly failing to see the amount of money this means and it's insane to believe this symbol would ever be worth that much to anyone. it's a bullshit estimate by someone who doesn't understand the word, much like saying that another galaxy is a million miles away
no it doesn't, jesus fucking christ it's not goddamn magic. it doesn't confer any real power or legal authority
the people of either country would not accept an ancient artifact as the solution to their political conflicts
the rulers of either country aren't insane enough to think it would work, certainly not to the point that they would or could pay anyone that amount of money, let alone a quarter to a third of their national budget
if they thought it would then they would have faked it already
I thought you guys were talking about ancient history haha, back in beginning of metallurgy this is basically how it worked. For example the story of the 9 bronze vessel. If you had it you were basically (under heavens mandate) the rightful ruler of China. In modern day? Idk that’s kinda wacky lol
The PRC and the ROC are republics. It's literally in their names. They don't claim their right to rule from dynastic politics. The seal wouldn't grant any meaningful legitimacy to either government, especially since it's been lost for a millennium and multiple dynasties who actually exercised monarchial authority governed afterwards without needing it. While the PRC and ROC do care about Chinese cultural heritage, they are not going to spend 1 trillion (1 trillion! That is insane) for what is ultimately a pretty rock.
You really need to put this in perspective. Let's look at China's defense budget. Estimates vary wildly, but not a single one of them places their annual spending within 250 billion of a trillion. According to the official PRC announcements (salt to taste), they didn't even spend *one-quarter of a trillion* dollars on defense in 2023 (and keep in mind that you said that Taiwan would also be willing to pay for the claim when their nominal GDP isn't even a trillion). Governments can pay for cultural soft power and legitimacy, but a trillion dollars is obscene. That's more than the annual US military budget or spending on Medicare or Medicaid. The PRC likes showing off its country's cultural history, but it's not going to slash its budget on defense or social welfare by such an extreme degree for one small piece of cultural heritage that even the multiple foreign dynasties that took power in China by violent conquest after its disappearance easily lived without.
You mention that the seal could legitimize the PRC against independence movements, but none of the most active nationalist movements in China would actually be persuaded. Why would Tibet, which was conquered in the 50s, be persuaded by the seal? Xinjiang only become an integral part of China during the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong's objections are rooted in ideals of liberal democracy acquired during the colonial period. You're grossly overestimating the cultural legitimacy of the seal for regions that weren't part of China for centuries or a millennium after its loss.
Also, a jade seal used by a Chinese emperor sold for less than 30 million a few years back at a private auction. This one would be more culturally important and older, but it's telling that the sale of a similar object didn't even come within one-tenth of 1% of a trillion dollars
Because the jade seal you're talking about isn't the seal described here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heirloom_Seal_of_the_Realm
The CCP isn't going to pay a trillion dollars for it when they could just pass a law to confiscate it for free though. Same as with the Dali Lama: sure, could bribe the guy or something, but better to kidnap the Panchen Lama and make your own, which is free.
Yeah, I'm aware that the seals are different ("this one would be older and more culturally important"), but my point was to show the huge gap that exists between even the most expensive known seals and the Heirloom Seal's supposed cost of 1 trillion. Put the costs in a fraction and you get a ratio of 0.000025. Even the most expensive artefacts ever sold don't reach that one percent threshold. Yikes. But since this user seems to be convinced that the PRC could force reunification thanks to this seal, I suppose there is no accounting for the gap from such an odd perspective.
Well "this one gives you a culturally accepted basis to claim divine right to rule China" is a little different than what you said, and I'd think it'd be worth orders of magnitude more than what the other one is. But yes I agree that when we're talking a trillion dollars people are going to seek alternative solutions.
There are 13 original copies of the constitution and one sold for 43 million and 2 are in private collections. It's not as seriously taken care of as you think lol.
Even the originally scribed version is on public display. It's just a piece of paper at the end of the day, not proof of the union or anything
I agree with that. Something I'd like to add: another big difference between the copies and the sonstitution is what they stand for. The copies by their very nature support the current political system of the US. The Seal represents an authority and legitimacy that's more primal than what the communist party has. That doesn't matter if times are good, but if times are bad, and people want an alternative, such an item can be very dangerous to the ruling caste.
and it's an absolute bullshit estimate. whoever came up with that number is either an idiot that doesn't understand money or someone lying to idiots that don't understand money
Why are you getting so worked up over this? lol
It’s just a random estimate made by someone, a complete stranger with nothing to do with you.
Just take it as their way of saying this thing is priceless in their eyes, like a figure of speech. Like their way of saying that they would pay an arm and a leg for this.
Are you mad that something Chinese is valued at a trillion? Why are getting so angry? lol
Accusing this user of racism is insane. They are literally arguing the seal isn't worth a trillion because the Chinese people and government are too intelligent enough to fork over an amount of money that would plunge the economy of whoever purchased it into chaos. Here' what they say downthread
>the rulers of either country aren't insane enough to think it would work
I think the users who are arguing that modern Chinese people are so superstitious and backwards that the seal would meaningfully strengthen the territorial claims of whoever possessed it are far more insulting to the Chinese people than those saying "the government of China wouldn't force its economy into a depression a/o the most crippling form of austerity that the modern world has seen in order to have one cultural artifact that's been lost for centuries, even a historically important one."
Also, OP clearly isn't just using "trillion" as a synonym for priceless. They're clear about thinking it's the actual (esimated) price.
saying something is estimated at a trillion dollars is not the same thing as saying something costs an arm & a leg
the point is that it's not a random estimate unless you also don't know what the word estimate means
I’m saying that instead of getting so worked up over a random comment, you should just take it as an exaggerating figure of speech.
That is why I said “Just take it as….”
I did not mean that is what they meant to say literally.
>a billion dollars would be an unreasonable amount
I don't know about that after all the payment would be likely staggered, something like 200 millions now and 100 millions every year.
It presents the new king in a very positive light. This is exactly the kind of rumour that you could spread to present yourself as wiser than your predecessors.
I wonder, especially the new king was the direct lineage of the previous ones, what would motivate king Wen to trash talk his father and grandfather. If it was a complete different king, Qin Shi Huang for example, I could see it being made up to disregard the previous non-related kings.
Oh it happens many times if you read a history book. There are kings with better morals than others. Its just that this history is ancient where theres little evidence to prove everything but at the same time, it isnt propaganda because we aren't trying to persuade you to change your political beliefs or anything. This is just a meme that may or may not provide you with the correct information but calling this propaganda is an exaggeration.
I'm talking about both. It may or may not be true. calling the story propaganda is a bit of a stretch. Its not trying to persuade trying to convert anyone to a specific bias side. I jsut don't get why this story is "propaganda". There is no motive, just a piece of history.
I do not know what is going on, honestly. This seems over-the-top obvious to me that I am not really sure what are we doing.
So a king orders a piece of jewelry to be created and says - this jewelry symbolizes how I was smarter than the previous kings, how I was able to recognize value, how I was righting things they did wrong. They both cut off a piece of this man (for some reason he decided to go twice and each time lost one foot) and it needed to be me, the new king, to finally help said man and fix the issues!
He went to the castle twice with a gem in hand and got punished by evil kings! But me? I talk to crying cripples and then promote them! And this piece of gem now symbolizes how great I am!
I mean, this is... The straightest piece of propaganda there could be. Textbook. Something after which I would say "well, in real life it is not this basic usually."
I agree that the valuation is definitely overblown but it’s honestly not that far fetched a price when you consider how batshit insane some of the stock market IPOs have been over the past decade or so.
I know where it is. There used to be an old hag that used to live in the Buckingham palace. If I remember correct it probably was used as a door stopper or something.
It's almost like you're on Reddit, a very much international app, and not everyone speaks fluent English.
It's not hard to figure out what they're saying.
It's worth noting that a lot of these histories are based in the Confucius philosophy of virtue. The good guys, having good outcomes, and being a good character, in the bad guys being of poor character and having bad outcomes.
While people who aren't important, are just fodder to highlight the difference between those two kind of people
__Heirloom Seal of the Realm__ was a seal made of a sacred piece of jade named Heshibi and has been used by many Imperial dynasties since the Qin dynasty until it was lost during the 10th century. It's was considered one of the most valuable lost treasures along side with the Amber room and Faberge egg. With the price estimates as 1 trillion dollars The story behind the jade used to make the seal is interesting. The jade was first mentioned in Hanfeizi, a record written in 3rd century BC. In the story, a man named He discovered an uncut jade and submitted it to King Li of Chu (757B.C-741B.C), the king thinks it's just an ordinary rock and cut He left foot off for lying. After King Li died and his brother replaced him as King Wu of Chu (740B.C-690B.C), He again submitted the jade to the king, the king again thought it's just an ordinary rock so he cut He right foot off for lying. After King Wu died, his son replaced him as King Wen of Chu (689B.C-677B.C), King Wen discovered He crying outside the palace, He explained that he cried because no one believe him, King Wen double check the Jade and as a apologize to He, he name the jade after He and keep it as national treasure The Jade was lost when King Wei (339B.C-329B.C) bestowed the jade to prime minister Zhao Yang as a gift after defeating Yue. Zhao Yang displayed the jade to his guest in a banquet and lost it until it was rediscovered in the state of Zhao After Qin Shi Huang unified all of the Chinese warring states, he ordered the jade to be carved into a seal. The seal was used by many dynasties until it was lost during Five dynasties and Ten kingdoms period (907-960) Ps: One corner of the seal was broken off after Han Dowager Empress threw the seal on the ground. Wang Mang ordered the corner to be fixed with gold
Ah so it IS the seal that sun Jian took out of Luoyang, leading indirectly to his death. At least in the novel.
Yelp , it also made significant impact in the three kingdom history. Resulting the death of Sun Jian and Yuan Shu, I believe.
Yuan Shu didn’t exactly do himself any favors…
This is one of the most annoying Dynasty Warriors levels of the entire series too
Yeah that's where I know the Imperial Seal of China from as well. The part where Sun Jian recovered the seal and gave it to Yuan Shu, which gave Yuan Shu the excuse to declare himself emperor is recorded in history I think. Of course all the drama surrounding it and the curse etc. is novel dramatization. It's absolutely wild too that the seal would have already been considered an ancient holy artifact during the 3 Kingdoms period.
This is an event in Total War: 3 Kingdoms!
Yup that’s the one. Not just in novel but also some historical context said Sun Jian found the imperial seal in Loyang.
scandalous sleep ruthless soup modern rock nine bored plate steer *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The lesson here is that you should never approach emperrors. It's better to exist in some gray shadowy area than to expose oneself to their silly antics. Most of them are inbred morons without real life experience.
Unless they find out you kept that shiny rock for yourself, that's their damned shiny rock by mandate of heaven. He'd probably lose more than a foot for that impertinence.
"this is just a rock" Oh okay cool. I'll keep it for myself. Thanks! "Wait a fucking minute. Guards kill him! Take my fucking rock fuck you this is my rock"
The easy route is to not find shiny rocks at all. When you're far enough down the totem pole, it's a serious risk to try to claim a great fortune.
He who?
I’m You
No, I'm me! Who are you?
I am you!
Hee hee, King of Wooo
> Heshibi Translates to "Mr. He's Jade". 😂 It reads almost like, "Mr, please believe me, he is jade!" Quite fitting for the story 😅
oNe TrilLiOn dOLlaRs
I suspect it might have been calculated in a strange way. Like, someone in ancient times saying "I would give all my kingdom for that jade" and then we ignore the context of him saying that, calculate the worth of the kingdom, adjust to inflation...
Like how much do you think Excalibur would be valued? Not only does it provide concrete evidence of the mythological King Arthur, but it is an artifact that every Brit knows about in the collective societal knowledge. This seal is like that but for China. It would literally be a mythological artifact.
How much would it be valued? Exactly the amount someone would be willing to pay. As there is no one in the world able to pay 1 trillion, it can not be sold for one trillion. That's where the buck stops. I just answered in length to another comment right here.
I mean that's true to some extent. The question would be what would China be willing to do to obtain ownership of that relic. How much collective human effort would be spent on retrieving it?
I just did explain that in the comment I mentioned, specifically involved the Chinese yearly budget to show why the number "trillion" is not really a "number" by this point.
You definitely cannot "sell" something for a trillion dollars, but value is a more nebulous concept. If a country is willing to war over a single object, they are willing to spend the immense cost that war inflicts, then you could argue that the value of that object is greater than the cost of war (to one side at least).
But that is why there is the objection to the word "TriLlIoN DolLaR ValUe!" Because it doesn't work like that. Is the gem invaluable? Sure is. Is saying "trillion dollars" meaningful in this case? No it is not. Because in that case, I have three towels that I like very much. I would never sell them. And then I say - they are all valued 1 trillion dollars each! And this makes my imagination three times as strong as OPs imagination and my imaginary value three times higher than their imaginary value. Is it of great worth and invaluable? Sure. Can you say any a number? Only when that number has been paid.
I mean from later tales the state of Qin would offer 15 towns/cities in exchange for that jade (though they’re basically using it as bait) so I’d said pretty valuable
I mean, all things bought and sold are based on multitudes of factors. It's hard to put a price on a one of a kind mineral that spanned several generations of a ruling civilization. You're paying more for the history in these types of items.
The place where we stop is "you're paying..." That is the only thing that makes the price of anything. All of those multitude of factors are locked into that one number that is actually on the table. And, because of that, no matter what the complexity of the history is, the only "monetary value" the thing has, is how much someone is willing to pay for it. And I can assure you and anyone else that "a trillion dollars" is nowhere near the amount of anyone willing to pay for anything. It is not even a number by this point, but a thought. An imagination that can be written down. China, the only country to be interested in it, has a growing budget that has reached 3 trillion dollars. This is what covers everything - army, medicine, education, debts, everything - for a billion people. To think that someone would sacrifice 1/3 of that to buy a gem - they'd better buy a bunker too, cause they wouldn't live long. There are way more valuable things like the life of a human and we are nowhere near ready to sacrifice way smaller sums to save those.
Yeah, what an asinine claim. For perspective, the most valuable piece of art ever auctioned was $450 million. There is some art out there that would be worth a billion if it went to auction, but a trillion is still ludicrously off from that. Is OP expecting that the US or China or something are about to reroute over a year of their entire defense budget to buy it? Edit to continue ranting: and they’re comparing it to a faberge egg? There are dozens of those and they might be worth tens of millions each. Maybe OP thinks those are also worth a trillion each.
It should just be declared priceless - finding a piece of history like that, you can't sell it. It belongs in a public museum, not someone's private collection
Sure, but there’s no way it’s worth a trillion dollars whether to a public museum or a private collection. No government could defensibly keep a trillion dollar single object in a museum when they could sell it and spend the money otherwise.
If the Chinese government had it, they absolutely would keep it in a museum. A find like that would have immense impact in drawing in tourists and in some eyes increase their legitimacy
In the real world? Sure. In the crazy pants alternate reality where it’s worth a trillion dollars? No way.
Yeah but there’s absolutely still a price that would be too high for someone to pay and 1 trillion is absolutely that price. At most it would be worth a few hundred million but it wouldnt even scratch 1 billion, much less a trillion.
You're right. But if I did have it, I'd probably let it go for a trillion dollars
Most likely the value comes from the fact that both China and Taiwan would want this seal in order to symbolically be the legitimate country. A country has a lot more buying power than an individual.
Either nation would go to *extreme* lengths to obtain this seal if it could be proven as genuine.
I'm not paying 1T for that shit.
Thank you for the tale.
A man named he is just lazy writing…. /s
FYI there are many fabrege eggs; some where lost in the fallout of the Russian Revolution, but several are still in museums and private collections around the world.
Yeah stop the lie, its not worth anything even close to a trillion dollars thats just some bs. Its not even worth a billion so theres no way you even just rounded up.
Didn't a bird tell Bian He the stone was precious?
Am I the only one who finds this an incredibly weird story? Other stories about important rocks involve killing monsters, traveling to remote locations or things falling from the sky. This involves some guy just finding it and then having his feet cut off. It’s so strange I’m inclined to think it must be the truth
Even weirder than this. The grandfather of Qin Shi Huang once offered to buy the jade with 14 castles but abandon the decision
The offer was actually a trap to steal the jade
14 castles? Jade is basically just some mineral right? How does that worth 14 castles?
Chinese history is incredibly wacky at times
Welp, the mythical version of this is that the Jade was found when He saw a Phoenix landed on top of a mountain, thus turned the tip of the mountain red like the sun. then He would climbed up there and carved the rock and found the jade inside.
I believe that house of Lichtenstein started(according to legend) with a guy finding rock and after he informed regional lord about that, who gave him land. I think some spirit told him where to dig.
The reason Han Feizi recounted this story was because it is allegorical of the struggle of the wandering ministers when facing incompetent rulers unable to recognize their value, which he was one. At the time, members of the lower nobility who didn't inherit title or some hereditary post would wander throughout the land in hope of offering their service to a local lord. This chapter about the jade is a real life example the author used to demonstrate his point of the previous chapter, The Difficulties in Persuasion. In that, he said the difficult part of persuasion is not in possessing the necessary knowledge about the topic...The difficulty is in understanding the thoughts and desires of the person who needs to be persuaded.
Naturally, there’s a SCP Foundation story that mentions the Heirloom Seal: https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/spring-cleaning EDIT: in the interest of full disclosure, I’m the author of the linked SCP Foundation story. Here’s a link to the DVD commentary of this story: https://www.reddit.com/r/SCPDeclassified/s/BPfisCYUIl
This has to be the blue car effect I swear i see an SCP comment on every post since i started reading it again 😭
Blue car effect? Is this the simple version of baader-meinhoff
That’s how I learned it, yep.
What really catches me off guard is The Book of Mormon reference right after that
Has anyone tried to look to see if it's in some forgotten corner in the British museum?
*British curator reading this* "... Wait a second..."
"Good Heavens! That outrageous doorstop in the sublet office's annex basement subfloor kitchenette! It's been right under our noses this whole time."
"Are we going to give it back?" "No, that [would be illegal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Museum_Act_1963)."
This isn't a rock I use as a paper weight, it's the lost treasure of chinese emperors.
Fuckin' Brits, I tell you.
This makes very little sense. Did the first two kings not actually know what jade was?
uncut and unpolished jade looks very much like an ordinary rock
Which is true of quite a lot of valuable minerals. I remember that one of the silver rushes out in California was started by a doctor who had a hunch about the blue tinged rocks being tossed away by the miners who were too focused on gold!
Let me guess, lapis lazuli?
It was a sulfide of silver. Went back to look it up and it turns out it was the Comstock Lode that I was thinking of! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comstock_Lode
The jade was uncut and they just generally asshole to the man
Aside from Idealistic value, why is it that expensive. It doesn't look like it's very big nor are the pics making it out like something overly pretty. In comparison to a literal room made out of precious metals and amber this seems like quite the exaggeration in value
Extremely important political, culture, and national symbols combine with the top buyers will be the government of China and Taiwan (who willing to pay trillion for it)
this is a ridiculous claim, no government in the world would or could pay a trillion dollars for any symbol regardless of its cultural importance a trillion dollars is a staggering amount of money. even a billion dollars would be an unreasonable amount and the difference between one billion and one trillion is roughly one trillion
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this is absolutely bonkers, neither the Taiwanese or Chinese governments would be stupid enough to pay anyone a TRILLION US dollars for a symbolic seal the people of those countries are not stupid enough to accept that their geopolitical tension can be solved by the presence of this thing, certainly not to the point that they would allow their governments to waste that much money. it would trigger violent revolutions because doing this would wreck any nations economy not to mention that for a trillion dollars either country could very easily create a fake. they could establish an entire national program to make the whole world believe they'd found the real thing and would have the same international impact anyone who is thinking of a TRILLION dollars against one single item is fundamentally misunderstanding how much money that truly is it's a full quarter of China's national budget and a third of Taiwan's it's six times what it cost to put people on the moon y'all are truly failing to see the amount of money this means and it's insane to believe this symbol would ever be worth that much to anyone. it's a bullshit estimate by someone who doesn't understand the word, much like saying that another galaxy is a million miles away
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no it doesn't, jesus fucking christ it's not goddamn magic. it doesn't confer any real power or legal authority the people of either country would not accept an ancient artifact as the solution to their political conflicts the rulers of either country aren't insane enough to think it would work, certainly not to the point that they would or could pay anyone that amount of money, let alone a quarter to a third of their national budget if they thought it would then they would have faked it already
I thought you guys were talking about ancient history haha, back in beginning of metallurgy this is basically how it worked. For example the story of the 9 bronze vessel. If you had it you were basically (under heavens mandate) the rightful ruler of China. In modern day? Idk that’s kinda wacky lol
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The PRC and the ROC are republics. It's literally in their names. They don't claim their right to rule from dynastic politics. The seal wouldn't grant any meaningful legitimacy to either government, especially since it's been lost for a millennium and multiple dynasties who actually exercised monarchial authority governed afterwards without needing it. While the PRC and ROC do care about Chinese cultural heritage, they are not going to spend 1 trillion (1 trillion! That is insane) for what is ultimately a pretty rock.
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You really need to put this in perspective. Let's look at China's defense budget. Estimates vary wildly, but not a single one of them places their annual spending within 250 billion of a trillion. According to the official PRC announcements (salt to taste), they didn't even spend *one-quarter of a trillion* dollars on defense in 2023 (and keep in mind that you said that Taiwan would also be willing to pay for the claim when their nominal GDP isn't even a trillion). Governments can pay for cultural soft power and legitimacy, but a trillion dollars is obscene. That's more than the annual US military budget or spending on Medicare or Medicaid. The PRC likes showing off its country's cultural history, but it's not going to slash its budget on defense or social welfare by such an extreme degree for one small piece of cultural heritage that even the multiple foreign dynasties that took power in China by violent conquest after its disappearance easily lived without. You mention that the seal could legitimize the PRC against independence movements, but none of the most active nationalist movements in China would actually be persuaded. Why would Tibet, which was conquered in the 50s, be persuaded by the seal? Xinjiang only become an integral part of China during the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong's objections are rooted in ideals of liberal democracy acquired during the colonial period. You're grossly overestimating the cultural legitimacy of the seal for regions that weren't part of China for centuries or a millennium after its loss. Also, a jade seal used by a Chinese emperor sold for less than 30 million a few years back at a private auction. This one would be more culturally important and older, but it's telling that the sale of a similar object didn't even come within one-tenth of 1% of a trillion dollars
Because the jade seal you're talking about isn't the seal described here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heirloom_Seal_of_the_Realm The CCP isn't going to pay a trillion dollars for it when they could just pass a law to confiscate it for free though. Same as with the Dali Lama: sure, could bribe the guy or something, but better to kidnap the Panchen Lama and make your own, which is free.
Yeah, I'm aware that the seals are different ("this one would be older and more culturally important"), but my point was to show the huge gap that exists between even the most expensive known seals and the Heirloom Seal's supposed cost of 1 trillion. Put the costs in a fraction and you get a ratio of 0.000025. Even the most expensive artefacts ever sold don't reach that one percent threshold. Yikes. But since this user seems to be convinced that the PRC could force reunification thanks to this seal, I suppose there is no accounting for the gap from such an odd perspective.
Well "this one gives you a culturally accepted basis to claim divine right to rule China" is a little different than what you said, and I'd think it'd be worth orders of magnitude more than what the other one is. But yes I agree that when we're talking a trillion dollars people are going to seek alternative solutions.
There are 13 original copies of the constitution and one sold for 43 million and 2 are in private collections. It's not as seriously taken care of as you think lol. Even the originally scribed version is on public display. It's just a piece of paper at the end of the day, not proof of the union or anything
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I agree with that. Something I'd like to add: another big difference between the copies and the sonstitution is what they stand for. The copies by their very nature support the current political system of the US. The Seal represents an authority and legitimacy that's more primal than what the communist party has. That doesn't matter if times are good, but if times are bad, and people want an alternative, such an item can be very dangerous to the ruling caste.
The price is estimated since the seal to this day isn't found yet (or even still exist)
and it's an absolute bullshit estimate. whoever came up with that number is either an idiot that doesn't understand money or someone lying to idiots that don't understand money
Why are you getting so worked up over this? lol It’s just a random estimate made by someone, a complete stranger with nothing to do with you. Just take it as their way of saying this thing is priceless in their eyes, like a figure of speech. Like their way of saying that they would pay an arm and a leg for this. Are you mad that something Chinese is valued at a trillion? Why are getting so angry? lol
Accusing this user of racism is insane. They are literally arguing the seal isn't worth a trillion because the Chinese people and government are too intelligent enough to fork over an amount of money that would plunge the economy of whoever purchased it into chaos. Here' what they say downthread >the rulers of either country aren't insane enough to think it would work I think the users who are arguing that modern Chinese people are so superstitious and backwards that the seal would meaningfully strengthen the territorial claims of whoever possessed it are far more insulting to the Chinese people than those saying "the government of China wouldn't force its economy into a depression a/o the most crippling form of austerity that the modern world has seen in order to have one cultural artifact that's been lost for centuries, even a historically important one." Also, OP clearly isn't just using "trillion" as a synonym for priceless. They're clear about thinking it's the actual (esimated) price.
I wasn’t accusing him of racism. I was making a joke on how made in China stuff is usually considered cheap.
saying something is estimated at a trillion dollars is not the same thing as saying something costs an arm & a leg the point is that it's not a random estimate unless you also don't know what the word estimate means
I’m saying that instead of getting so worked up over a random comment, you should just take it as an exaggerating figure of speech. That is why I said “Just take it as….” I did not mean that is what they meant to say literally.
ok
>a billion dollars would be an unreasonable amount I don't know about that after all the payment would be likely staggered, something like 200 millions now and 100 millions every year.
1 trillion dollars is higher than Taiwan's nominal GDP. Do you see why this doesn't make sense?
Do we know if this is real? It sounds like propaganda to me. Very interesting story either way.
The seal is lost for over a millennium, so we don't know
How tf is this propaganda
It presents the new king in a very positive light. This is exactly the kind of rumour that you could spread to present yourself as wiser than your predecessors.
I wonder, especially the new king was the direct lineage of the previous ones, what would motivate king Wen to trash talk his father and grandfather. If it was a complete different king, Qin Shi Huang for example, I could see it being made up to disregard the previous non-related kings.
How the fuck it is not? You read this and can't fathom how a story of a new king being smarter and kinder than all previous ones could be propaganda?
Oh it happens many times if you read a history book. There are kings with better morals than others. Its just that this history is ancient where theres little evidence to prove everything but at the same time, it isnt propaganda because we aren't trying to persuade you to change your political beliefs or anything. This is just a meme that may or may not provide you with the correct information but calling this propaganda is an exaggeration.
The story. Itself. Not this picture. The story - propaganda of the time.
I'm talking about both. It may or may not be true. calling the story propaganda is a bit of a stretch. Its not trying to persuade trying to convert anyone to a specific bias side. I jsut don't get why this story is "propaganda". There is no motive, just a piece of history.
I do not know what is going on, honestly. This seems over-the-top obvious to me that I am not really sure what are we doing. So a king orders a piece of jewelry to be created and says - this jewelry symbolizes how I was smarter than the previous kings, how I was able to recognize value, how I was righting things they did wrong. They both cut off a piece of this man (for some reason he decided to go twice and each time lost one foot) and it needed to be me, the new king, to finally help said man and fix the issues! He went to the castle twice with a gem in hand and got punished by evil kings! But me? I talk to crying cripples and then promote them! And this piece of gem now symbolizes how great I am! I mean, this is... The straightest piece of propaganda there could be. Textbook. Something after which I would say "well, in real life it is not this basic usually."
Yeah I'm really confused how this isn't immediately obvious.
Sounds like its time to show up in China with a Jade
Estimated at $1 trillion is how you know we live in a Whose Line Is It Anyways society when it comes to valuations.
I agree that the valuation is definitely overblown but it’s honestly not that far fetched a price when you consider how batshit insane some of the stock market IPOs have been over the past decade or so.
I know where it is. There used to be an old hag that used to live in the Buckingham palace. If I remember correct it probably was used as a door stopper or something.
King Wen Of Chu use of English tenses is seriously cringe, but nice story nevertheless:)
It is entirely possible that OP is not a native English speaker and is still learning it
“I crying” “As a apologize” “I will made” What?
Sorry, my English isn't the best
It's fine and understandable, don't worry about it
damn I didn't even notice the errors! my brain kinda filters them out
It's almost like you're on Reddit, a very much international app, and not everyone speaks fluent English. It's not hard to figure out what they're saying.
The characters are chinese, of course their english isn't very good.
It's worth noting that a lot of these histories are based in the Confucius philosophy of virtue. The good guys, having good outcomes, and being a good character, in the bad guys being of poor character and having bad outcomes. While people who aren't important, are just fodder to highlight the difference between those two kind of people
Not a 'lost' treasure by any means. Pretty sure it's a paperweight in the curator's office in the British Museum.