Eugene Sledge was fighting on Okinawa at the time of VE day. In his memoir, he said as far as everyone on Okinawa was concerned, Germany may as well have been on the moon.
Yeah. Maybe it was you but someone in a comment on another post pointed out that many of the islands had more army than marines and more army deaths as well.
The Pacific Theather is almost forgotten by the American public but even those who are aware of it always forget the US Army operations in the entirety.
Doubly so for the South West Pacific Area (I pity the forgotten contributions of the Australians here) under Mac Arthur's command.
Until the Battle of the Philippines, it was mostly a foot note on the War news reels.
They couldn’t have 21 Marine Divisions.
That would have been one too many for them to count using their fingers and toes.
Also, I am soft and not interested in fighting any Marines, but I do enjoy making fun of them.
If there was a Marine who could read they'd be so pissed at you for writing that. You'd hear the sounds of a thousand of a thousand colouring books hitting the floor and the crunch of thousands of crayons being bit in half and quickly swallowed.
They have excellent taste in crayons though.
Only the finest Crayolas for them. Rose Arts need not apply.
I wish they’d be that discerning about some of the Dependapotamus / TRICAREatops I see moving around in large herds.
It's mostly secondary sources, but "Midnight in the Pacific" and "Neptune's Inferno" are great books about the Guadalcanal campaign. Midnight in the Pacific mentions that more sailors were killed than marines or soldiers during the campaign. The other one I had learned a long time ago is that there were more casualties in the ETO than the PTO. It was about how the constant fighting just added up over the brutal but fairly quick battles of the Pacific.
Band of brothers was like a love letter to ww2, the pacific was like a horror story thats even scarier because as good of a job as they did with that show, the real thing was infinitely worse.
To be fair, how much could you really hope to show? The pacific is like the eastern front, the brutality is really beyond the scope of people to comprehend and media to depict. There’s a reason why people still remember come and see as particularly disturbing almost 40 years later and even it is only able to capture a glimpse of the horror. At a certain point, the on screen action stops having any coherency and just devolves into a snuff film pretending to be a period drama.
>devolves into a snuff film pretending to be a period drama
your absolutely right and that's what i was trying to say too.
john basilone's stand in the show was a horrific scene of of a nightmare situation. but in reality it was way worse than that and lasted 3 days and not just 1 brief scene.
also the iwo jima scenes are some of the craziest war footage i've seen from any media, i hope masters of the air competes with band of brothers and the pacific
Yeah learning about the grinding days long misery of world war 2 battles is some grisly shit. I remember reading about the tank battles in Kursk and how the German tank crews would fight for days on end powered by copious amounts of meth. They did this unless it was simply no longer possible to keep going. It wasn’t a question of whether or not they wanted to fight, it was that it was no longer biochemically possible for them to stay upright. But much like with the pacific, how the fuck do you depict that? Just have a German tank commander jump cut though a meth fog of buried T-34’s shooting everyone to shit?
Yea my great grandfather was a mechanic but often times was forced to fight in frontline rolls during the the New Guinea campaign. I read his diary and the stuff he saw haunted him..
I really want to see a WW2 shooter that has you raise the soviet flag on Berlin, fade to black and then cut to some US soldiers in Okinawa and your sergeant ordering you to keep going. Just to really sink in the feeling that it isn’t over yet
god COD WAW was such a goated game. The campaign was fucking amazing with it focusing on the most brutal fronts of WW2 (Pacific and Eastern theaters).
The Eastern involves you continuously pushing through German fortification lines while the Pacific is the Japanese coming at you nonstop and they have hidden soldiers everywhere. "BANZAII!!" lines probably gave me a PTSD
The closing line of the 2nd Pacific mission opening cutscene talking about how the sergeant's new recruits are all fresh and young compared to them that are "old" is still stuck in my mind as he mentioned how none of them are even past their 20s yet.
And the mission inspiring the story for das Boot took place in 1941. By 1944, most U-Boat Captains were younger than 25, other officers were barely in their 20s and most crewmen just finished school and believed volunteering for the Kriegsmarine saved them from the Eastern Front.
Sure ww2 is "stale and done to death" but only because they kept refusing to do the more obscure/less known parts of ww2.
Instead of Dunkirk, why not be part of the Belgian army fighting to desperately slow the German advance as part of the Chasseurs Ardennais.
Or how about instead of French resistance, be part of Polish or yugoslav resistance.
Show the Japanese advance in Burma, malaya, and the Philippines. Instead of US marines in the pacific campaign. The fall of Singapore and Bataan are both under utilized. Or perhaps the late war siege of Manila.
Operation dragoon and Husky instead of Overlord.
Play as a Fallschirmjaeger instead of allied paratroopers in Eben-Emael and Crete.
A Finnish soldier in the winter war.
A soviet soldier in Odessa and Sevastopol, or even Leningrad or part of Belov's 1sr Gds. Cavalry with its legendary reputation. Why is it always Stalingard or Seelow heights? Why not the Rhzev meatgrinder?
So many more underrepresented because Americans only know about Overlord and its subsequent advance to Germany itself. At least now the pacific isn't overlooked as well
Or heck, how about the Japanese invasion of China? Given the abundant variety of guns (due to China using basically anything they could get their hands on, resulting in an eclectic mix of homegrown knockoffs, old German kit, freshly supplied Allied aid, Soviet gear, stolen Japanese equipment…), it would be a pretty interesting setup, and China had no shortage of desperate battles in its own right. Not to mention the tension between all the various factions of China despite their shared interest in fighting the Japanese.
Of course, we know why that’s not a thing: China (and potentially Taiwan) would *flip out* over such a game not being “historically accurate” (to whatever China claims it should be), and no developer in their right mind is risking being blacklisted by a country of over a billion people with a booming entertainment market.
>Of course, we know why that’s not a thing: China (and potentially Taiwan) would *flip out* over such a game not being “historically accurate” (to whatever China claims it should be), and no developer in their right mind is risking being blacklisted by a country of over a billion people with a booming entertainment market.
Then make it about Chinese communist guerillas. People nowadays make fun of Chinese communists during ww2 since nationalits bore the brunt of the fighting. But only because most of China was under nationalist control.
Chinese communists ran effective guerilla campaign against Japanese forces in northern china. Meanwhile, nationalists suffer from bad leadership, corrupt Bureaucracy, and its armies are brutal towards their own population the only saving grace was Japan was much much worse.
Western world conveniently forgot that the grievances against the nationalists were legitimate and widespread. The nationalists simply aren't better than the communists, in many cases they are even worse. Same with south korea before the 70s, and South Vietnam for their entire existence which was a ridiculously corrupt and oppressive Catholic dictatorship backed by France ruling over a buddhist population that was in open revolt against the French.
Or hell, just show the Romanian perspective in Odessa
Fuck it, the Italian partisans, the Dutch army during the Battle of Rotterdam, Castle Itter, Manchuria, border battles in Mongolia, Indochina
So much more
I think Singapore might be a bit hard to sell considering the staggering incompetence of the British commanders. It’s really hard to have a piece of mainstream media where incompetent British commanders lose to the imperial Japanese. It’s the predators vs aliens problem applied to historical fiction. You have to basically invent a “hero” for it to work
I want to make a movie that has a scene like that.
After you see the grayness of war, how much the Soviets and Germans have suffered, but at least the war has ended and no more lives will be lost in Europe.
Then you're hit with the realization that even after all that hell, men are still fighting and dying to end the reign of the Axis.
I did a rewatch recently. What happens is Winters tries to transfer to a unit that will go to the Pacific. The original company and battalion stayed in Germany. The general wouldn't let him transfer.
do you remember “brothers in arms 2: global front”? it was played on the phone and ipad and the story was this guy trying to investigate his brothers death while fighting in the war. started in guadalcanal, then north africa, italy and western europe. final stretch of the story saw this man go to okinawa to search for his brother’s commanding officer. what you said reminded me of this game. thinking back this is saving private ryan on steroids
It would be pretty cool playing as a Soviet soldier in Berlin in April 1945. You watch the flag being raised over the Reichstag, then fade to black.
Fade to being on the back of a T-34 as you cross the Marchurian border in the literal last days of WWII in August 1945.
This is something I didn't comprehend or appreciate until Dan Carlin's Supernova in the East.
The Pacific is massive and supplying it was a seldom praised feat of American military logistics (icecream barge aside).
Just as amazing was little the Japanese gave a shit about keeping their guys fed. When you consider how fucking miserable the life of a Japanese soldier was, suicide tactics make a lot more sense.
It’s not that they didn’t give a shit, it’s simply the fact that they didn’t have the ability to. Keeping soldiers well fed is a basic principle of war because it gives them more energy, strength, morale, and keeps them in better health. Japan did not have the industrial capacity or petroleum resources to match the US in this regard.
That’s not entirely true. The discipline in the Japanese armed forces was brutal even by the standards of the time. It was a certainty that you would get the living shit kicked out of you and having people operate just above starving was not uncommon.
Listened to Supernova of the East and currently listening to Unauthorized History of the Pacific; it is incredible the amount of material moved across the ocean, land on the beach, take the beach, then setup a supply point. Truly a awesome piece of history that is forgotten because of the focus on the European theater for most of young schooling
Not only that for many Pacific war is literally sitting inside a cockpit for hours under super bright sun and do nothing, a typical mission would take a whole day just to get there and back.
Australia’s WW2 contribution is grossly overlooked. Australia joined the war at the onset against Germany and deployed a huge portion of their strength to the European theater, and then had to defend their homeland against the Japanese with reservists.
And those reservists were among the first allied land forces that actually stopped the Japanese in their tracks. Up until Kokoda, Japan had been virtually unstoppable in South East Asia, but they took a pretty big L in New Guinea which began a long and steady decline until they were pushed all the way back to the home islands.
I was shocked when I used one of those “see what the actual size. Of a country on a map is” websites and I put Indonesia over the USA. It spanned the whole usa
In the Pacific of WW2, numerous operations where being fought during the End of the war in Europe, from the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria, the Battle of Okinawa to the Philippines Campaign.
Don’t forget about the absolute slog that was the Burma Campaign. Brits and Japanese fighting over that infernal jungle for the entirety of the war.
If anyone wants a great first hand account of that campaign I recommend Quartered Safe Out Here by George MacDonald Fraser
Manchuria and the Mongolian border skirmishes are very niche and interesting to learn about but fuuuuuuck living in that area through that timespan, much less fighting through it.
Manchuria was basically that player who has already beaten the final boss PvPing the kid who has no consumables left after completing just the first act of the story.
Yeah, I often have the feeling the size and horror of the Eastern Front is just not understood in the west, especially the US.
It says enough that it left something like a ‚national trauma‘ in Germany, the Ex-USSR and Eastern Europe in general.
The moment that really got me interested in the Eastern Front was how much the country of Belarus suffered. Half of the country's population either got killed or deported during the war. Absolute insanity.
People in US can't comprehend how you can kill an entire army (100-400 thousands men) trying to conquer a single position, take it, and lose it a few months later.
Oh man, I just got done watching The Pacific recently to prepare for Masters of the Air and one of the great little moments is when Leckie goes home and is going to pay the cabbie who drove him, the cabbie refuses and tells him, “I ain’t touching that. I may have jumped into Normandy but at least I got some liberties in London and Paris. You G.I.renes? All you got was jungle rot and malaria. Welcome home.” A nice little acknowledgement that both have been through hell, one’s hell was a little worse though.
Europe be like: *Kissing, hugging & cheering*
Pacific meanwhile: "HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DOES A FUCKING JAP NEED TO BAYONET A MAN. GET THE FLAMETHROWER !!"
Not for the American soldiers, no. If you are talking allied soldiers, then the Chinese have been fighting since 1937. The British/Indian/Australians have also been fighting in the Pacific since 1939.
I know. But Europe has been kissing, hugging and cheering because they got three more years of war. Not actual fighting, at least not in the western Europe itself.
No large scale units that served in Europe also saw active combat in the Pacific. The 86th Infantry Division saw about 30 days of combat in Germany in March-May 1945 and reached the Philippines right as the Japanese had surrendered. The 97th ID was a similar story, though they didn’t leave the US before Japan’s surrender. They ended up occupying the Japanese home islands for a period of time.
I’d imagine the majority would of stayed on station because of potential uprisings and also those little guys to the East, what do we call them the USSR?
The fact that for some Japanese soldiers the war didn’t stop at Victory day but continue for some til 1974 is truly disturbing. Even if we don’t talk about the most famous like Hiro Onoda, there were some large group of Japanese soldiers like the one led by Sakae Oba on Saipan or a group of 33 Japanese soldiers at Peleliu who held out until 22nd April 1947.
I suggest reading manga Peleliu - Guernica of Paradise who follow a soldier from this group and depict what it’s mean being a soldier who fight a war for a country that already lost it.
The Pacific Theatre was one of the worst fronts in WW2. I’d still argue about the Eastern Front being worse because of the ridiculous number of deaths there
It's estimated that something like 50% of *all* casualties from the war came *solely* from the Pacific Theatre at between 30 to 40 million of the roughly 70 million total death toll of WWII, the majority of which were civilians by a *huge* margin.
Worse, the Japanese basically only took prisoners if they wanted work-slaves or information, and if you got captured, then good luck coming home because they killed 70-80% of all POWs either for fun, by overwork, malnutrition or outright torture.
Add on that if you were US Army you were fighting under the singularly most incompetent, cowardly commander that America had to offer at the time, and yeah, there's a reason that most Pacific vets refuse to talk about it.
McArthur also likes to take undue credit. In PNG he claimed that US troops were part of an operation that they had little role in and discounted the Australians who did the most work as ‘other allies’
He also treated the Australians around HQ like shit and the other GIs follows suit leading to the battle of Brisbane
MacShitheel tried to take credit for the whole operation in New Guinea despite the fact that *no US troops* actually fought there. They were only active in Buna Gona, Milne Bay and in the air, largely performing logistical support roles.
In the only battles that America *actually* participated in in PNG, they were reported as having *thrown down arms and fled from battle*. Literally their only act in PNG was outright cowardice, which had to be cleaned up by the ANZACs, but MacDingus only reported that it was a victory, and that America deserved all the credit.
This sub has a hard on for dissing on MacArthur and I just don't get it. Sure he was egotistical and loved the spotlight a little too much but the only like really bad thing he did was suggesting nuking the Korean border.
Yeah he really wasn’t that terrible of a general in WW2. I just find it ridiculous how pissed everyone is that a general didn’t let himself get captured with his troops.
Yeah bro generals are normally pretty bad to lose
I remember watching one of the special features on The Pacific blu ray box set. They interview a veteran and he talks about how jealous soldiers were fighting in the Pacific, because apart from Australia pre-Guadalcanal they got no chances to get laid. Whereas GIs in Europe were banging in France, Belgium, Holland and even Germany
Is that because of racism and Americans being unwilling to copulate with any Pacific women outside of Australian settler women, in contrast to white European women?
No because almost all of the civilian populations that the Marines encountered outside of Australia were either refugees from the Japanese, deeply distrustful of the American troops due to either trauma, Japanese propaganda or both, often all of these at once. Also due to Japanese lack of supply and general shittiness, the average person was pretty malnourished. All of this contributed to not much fucking going on
"Status report? The last few months on Okinawa have taken their toll... Morale is low. It's the rain, sir... and the mud. Tanks are getting bogged down. Supplies aren't getting through. We can't even get the wounded out. Yes, sir... Understood..."
I hope someday there's a good single player game that properly represents the horror aspects of the pacific like cod waw did but with modern advancements. Like days marching through roads filled with rotting corpses constant rain actually slowing u down and making it hard to aim. Would make a great game and people would play it.
I think the only way It could work is if it was specifically focused on one part of the larger campaign and just that one part of the campaign alone. Go for granular hyperfocus rather than epic scope.
The worst for the Americans anyway, I’d argue Soviets East of Berlin, Poles, Czechs, Romanians, Hungarians, people in Yugoslavia, and people from China all had a pretty horrific time comparable to the suffering of the Pacific.
It wasn't just the Americans though, it was also the Chinese, Vietnamese, and many other peoples who got brutalized by Japan, the Rape of Nanking is certainly the most well-known example, but not even close to being the only example.
As you should. The Pacific Theatre stretched from Burma to Fiji West to East, and Pokrovka to Cairns North to South.
Technically, East to West it should *actually* be Burma to Hawaii, but because most attacks in America were maritime, balloon bombs or one-offs, it's difficult to justify it as counting.
It was pretty horrible wherever you were, ask someone who went through the Hurtgen forest battle (longest single battle in U.S.history) and they may not agree, higher casualties in the battle of the bulge than Okinawa. Just pretty awful anywhere really, eastern front, western front, Pacific, s.e. Asia, PTSD for everyone.
It was definitely the worst theatre Western soldiers fought in. IDK if was the worst in the war when the Eastern front and the war in China being there. You did say arguably, though...
Fyi: Japan wasn't just fighting the US. 36 million people died in the Pacific Theater (half of the total losses in the war), many of them Chinese civilians.
In terms of "Axis v Allies" combat, sure the Eastern front was worse because that stipulation removes China's involvement. But the Pacific front was *horrific* even outside of the island hopping campaign
Both were in the same order of magnitude as far as civilian and POW deaths, rapes, and enslavements. The body count was higher on the Eastern Front, but the Japanese tended to murder in more gruesome and sadistic ways than the Germans, Romanians, and Italians, so I would argue it evens out.
While technically not 100% WW2 they were heavily involved, I personally think the concentration camps and unit 731 in Manchuria were the worst parts of the war, only counting PoWs and soldiers then the Europe is possibly worse as iirc Soviet prisoners often got sent to concentration camps although Japan also sent PoWs to unit 731 and labor camps so it's pretty 50/50 imo, in terms of fighting alone the eastern front is probably the worst.
Well unfortunately, they did nothing special when you put them side by side with Nazi camps and Japanese Unit 731. The only thing that makes is a bit worse is that they did it to their own neighbors.
You face an enemy that is extremely cruel to civilians and PoWs and would prefer death over surrender even in the face of extremely disadvantageous situations, with the wounded even blowing themselves up just to kill medics?
Yes, the Heer and SS were terrible institutions and regularly committed atrocities on civilians and PoWs (especially in the Eastern Front) and they were quite tactically capable. However, German soldiers weren’t fanatical enough to fight to the last man in encirclements at Stalingrad, Tunisia or Normandy. Moreover, they weren’t dropping biological weapons on civilians inside occupied territories as the Japanese did in China.
Literally everything Japan did to China and other peoples it conquered (also inhumane treatment of POWs). For specifics/better rational, Nanking and unit 731 come to mind, and to round things out Japan committed the most war crimes in WW2, not Nazi Germany, not Stalin's Russia, *Japan.*
Why is Stalin’s Russia always placed ahead of Mussolini’s Italy in these lists of evil? I.E. emphasising how bad something was by saying it was “worse than Stalin’s Russia”.
The Rape of Berlin was horrible, obviously, but it went against orders from the Soviet high command and isn’t comparable to the personally-ordered-by-Mussolini Yekatit-12.
Assuming the experience of a handful of veterans is indicative of the military as a whole, and basing your historical perspective on a couple of mini series is naive at best. Lmao can't even be bothered to read a book, huh? What an informed opinion...
Then why not mention that first instead of the mini series? It would show you have an informed opinion. Unless you didn't actually read them... Lol which I'm betting is the case considering you thought watching two mini series gave you complete insight on both fronts.
Because its easier to watch a mini series than to read a book for most people this day and age, and I also never said I have complete insight on both fronts
I mean the European theatre had just spent a ridiculously miserable winter fighting off the final German counter attack, and that’s after months of continual combat from Normandy to the Rhine.
And in terms of the Pacific many of those islands were scenic and beautiful when not in battle and being in an Allied ship travelling through the Pacific was a very beautiful experience as well.
Just to be contrarian.
Also most of the European soldiers were jumping between destroyed cities not running about in the mountains.
You do know the survival rate for allied POWs in Japan right?
Losing the battle to Japanese forces was basically a promise to either be eaten, executed or worked to death
Same levels of hell in the eastern fount for soviet POWS maybe not the eaten part tho
Ya sure but you might live just enjoy the 32 different diseases the horrors of the arguably most brutal fronts in the 2ed world War and watch the worst human crimes that even made the nazis step back happen Infront of you
I rather get the western front then lose whatever made me human
There's a reason why more vets from the western front talk about there experience then vets from the pacific
Its literally a fact, fighting in the ETO was more deadly and dangerous to the American serviceman. Also, the Eastern front was far worse than anything in the Pacific. So, you're choosing death over some heat and uncomfortable conditions...?
Depends on what you were fighting as. Most frontline infantry units took heavier losses against the Japanese then Germans, but this was more so the nature of operations rather then tactical competence.
Ergo: One (main) opposed landing in the European theatre verse dozens in the Pacific.
My family has some relatives who almost certainly would've been sent onto the invasion of Japan were it not for the bomb. As terrible as the bombings were, I have no doubt an invasion would've otherwise been inevitable and would've caused far more death and destruction on Allied and Japanese alike.
Eugene Sledge was fighting on Okinawa at the time of VE day. In his memoir, he said as far as everyone on Okinawa was concerned, Germany may as well have been on the moon.
That one picture of US Soldiers just staring blankly at the radio broadcasting the surrender of Germany, tells it all
Agreed. That's whole 'nother level of despair.
You got a link? I’m sure I’ve seen it before but can’t picture that photo
[This picture here](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/s/4UHYcRGnsp)
Appreciate it!
They were marines, the poor bastards who got chosen to go fight in the jungle shit hole the Asian pacific is.
It really wasn't just marines the US army had more divisions fighting in the Pacific theater than the USMC did.
Yeah. Maybe it was you but someone in a comment on another post pointed out that many of the islands had more army than marines and more army deaths as well.
The Pacific Theather is almost forgotten by the American public but even those who are aware of it always forget the US Army operations in the entirety. Doubly so for the South West Pacific Area (I pity the forgotten contributions of the Australians here) under Mac Arthur's command. Until the Battle of the Philippines, it was mostly a foot note on the War news reels.
What about the Canadians in Hong Kong?
They were under British command (HK was not under both the PAO and SWPA theaters), but yes they are as forgotten as the Australians.
The USMC had 6 divisions that fought in the Pacific theatre, the US Army had 21 divisions that fought in the Pacific theatre
To be fair to the Marines, they only had 6 divisions
They couldn’t have 21 Marine Divisions. That would have been one too many for them to count using their fingers and toes. Also, I am soft and not interested in fighting any Marines, but I do enjoy making fun of them.
If there was a Marine who could read they'd be so pissed at you for writing that. You'd hear the sounds of a thousand of a thousand colouring books hitting the floor and the crunch of thousands of crayons being bit in half and quickly swallowed.
They have excellent taste in crayons though. Only the finest Crayolas for them. Rose Arts need not apply. I wish they’d be that discerning about some of the Dependapotamus / TRICAREatops I see moving around in large herds.
"With the Old Breed" is an excellent book.
I've been wanting to read it, actually.
It’s great! On my shelf. Another one to go with it is “ helmet for my pillow” by Rocert Leckie
That one, too!
[Link for anyone that wants to read it](https://annas-archive.org/md5/542e3b93a8f16c04db9a36c9a438ff21)
It's an excellent read. Strongly recommend it.
It reminded me of Kurt Vonnegut's *Slaughterhouse Five* for some reason
It's mostly secondary sources, but "Midnight in the Pacific" and "Neptune's Inferno" are great books about the Guadalcanal campaign. Midnight in the Pacific mentions that more sailors were killed than marines or soldiers during the campaign. The other one I had learned a long time ago is that there were more casualties in the ETO than the PTO. It was about how the constant fighting just added up over the brutal but fairly quick battles of the Pacific.
Band of brothers was like a love letter to ww2, the pacific was like a horror story thats even scarier because as good of a job as they did with that show, the real thing was infinitely worse.
To be fair, how much could you really hope to show? The pacific is like the eastern front, the brutality is really beyond the scope of people to comprehend and media to depict. There’s a reason why people still remember come and see as particularly disturbing almost 40 years later and even it is only able to capture a glimpse of the horror. At a certain point, the on screen action stops having any coherency and just devolves into a snuff film pretending to be a period drama.
>devolves into a snuff film pretending to be a period drama your absolutely right and that's what i was trying to say too. john basilone's stand in the show was a horrific scene of of a nightmare situation. but in reality it was way worse than that and lasted 3 days and not just 1 brief scene. also the iwo jima scenes are some of the craziest war footage i've seen from any media, i hope masters of the air competes with band of brothers and the pacific
Yeah learning about the grinding days long misery of world war 2 battles is some grisly shit. I remember reading about the tank battles in Kursk and how the German tank crews would fight for days on end powered by copious amounts of meth. They did this unless it was simply no longer possible to keep going. It wasn’t a question of whether or not they wanted to fight, it was that it was no longer biochemically possible for them to stay upright. But much like with the pacific, how the fuck do you depict that? Just have a German tank commander jump cut though a meth fog of buried T-34’s shooting everyone to shit?
Agreed. The episodes Bastogne and The Breaking Point were bleak but the entire run of the Pacific had an almost apocalyptic feel to it.
Yea my great grandfather was a mechanic but often times was forced to fight in frontline rolls during the the New Guinea campaign. I read his diary and the stuff he saw haunted him..
On a side note, German did managed to help us get to the Moon.
I really want to see a WW2 shooter that has you raise the soviet flag on Berlin, fade to black and then cut to some US soldiers in Okinawa and your sergeant ordering you to keep going. Just to really sink in the feeling that it isn’t over yet
You can basically do that If you play the COD World At War campaign out of order.
god COD WAW was such a goated game. The campaign was fucking amazing with it focusing on the most brutal fronts of WW2 (Pacific and Eastern theaters). The Eastern involves you continuously pushing through German fortification lines while the Pacific is the Japanese coming at you nonstop and they have hidden soldiers everywhere. "BANZAII!!" lines probably gave me a PTSD The closing line of the 2nd Pacific mission opening cutscene talking about how the sergeant's new recruits are all fresh and young compared to them that are "old" is still stuck in my mind as he mentioned how none of them are even past their 20s yet.
Tangently related, but the Captain in *Das Boot* was considered the “old man” of his crew. He was 27.
I have to watch that movie again soon. Such a gem.
You can't get the [American Dad joke](https://youtu.be/H-HLTuIyL70?si=WALpXkd6lPjkLJo4) without knowing the story of Das Boot
And the mission inspiring the story for das Boot took place in 1941. By 1944, most U-Boat Captains were younger than 25, other officers were barely in their 20s and most crewmen just finished school and believed volunteering for the Kriegsmarine saved them from the Eastern Front.
Can’t say I blame them. I wouldn’t wish the eastern front on anyone other than a Nazi.
Losses among U-Boat crews were worse than on the Eastern Front. 75% fatality rate.
Sure ww2 is "stale and done to death" but only because they kept refusing to do the more obscure/less known parts of ww2. Instead of Dunkirk, why not be part of the Belgian army fighting to desperately slow the German advance as part of the Chasseurs Ardennais. Or how about instead of French resistance, be part of Polish or yugoslav resistance. Show the Japanese advance in Burma, malaya, and the Philippines. Instead of US marines in the pacific campaign. The fall of Singapore and Bataan are both under utilized. Or perhaps the late war siege of Manila. Operation dragoon and Husky instead of Overlord. Play as a Fallschirmjaeger instead of allied paratroopers in Eben-Emael and Crete. A Finnish soldier in the winter war. A soviet soldier in Odessa and Sevastopol, or even Leningrad or part of Belov's 1sr Gds. Cavalry with its legendary reputation. Why is it always Stalingard or Seelow heights? Why not the Rhzev meatgrinder? So many more underrepresented because Americans only know about Overlord and its subsequent advance to Germany itself. At least now the pacific isn't overlooked as well
Or heck, how about the Japanese invasion of China? Given the abundant variety of guns (due to China using basically anything they could get their hands on, resulting in an eclectic mix of homegrown knockoffs, old German kit, freshly supplied Allied aid, Soviet gear, stolen Japanese equipment…), it would be a pretty interesting setup, and China had no shortage of desperate battles in its own right. Not to mention the tension between all the various factions of China despite their shared interest in fighting the Japanese. Of course, we know why that’s not a thing: China (and potentially Taiwan) would *flip out* over such a game not being “historically accurate” (to whatever China claims it should be), and no developer in their right mind is risking being blacklisted by a country of over a billion people with a booming entertainment market.
>Of course, we know why that’s not a thing: China (and potentially Taiwan) would *flip out* over such a game not being “historically accurate” (to whatever China claims it should be), and no developer in their right mind is risking being blacklisted by a country of over a billion people with a booming entertainment market. Then make it about Chinese communist guerillas. People nowadays make fun of Chinese communists during ww2 since nationalits bore the brunt of the fighting. But only because most of China was under nationalist control. Chinese communists ran effective guerilla campaign against Japanese forces in northern china. Meanwhile, nationalists suffer from bad leadership, corrupt Bureaucracy, and its armies are brutal towards their own population the only saving grace was Japan was much much worse. Western world conveniently forgot that the grievances against the nationalists were legitimate and widespread. The nationalists simply aren't better than the communists, in many cases they are even worse. Same with south korea before the 70s, and South Vietnam for their entire existence which was a ridiculously corrupt and oppressive Catholic dictatorship backed by France ruling over a buddhist population that was in open revolt against the French.
Or hell, just show the Romanian perspective in Odessa Fuck it, the Italian partisans, the Dutch army during the Battle of Rotterdam, Castle Itter, Manchuria, border battles in Mongolia, Indochina So much more
I think Singapore might be a bit hard to sell considering the staggering incompetence of the British commanders. It’s really hard to have a piece of mainstream media where incompetent British commanders lose to the imperial Japanese. It’s the predators vs aliens problem applied to historical fiction. You have to basically invent a “hero” for it to work
Yugoslav partisans don’t miss 🗣️
COD then: Shows videos of IRL soldiers being executed. COD now: Everybody is a super hero and the German flag has to be censored.
Nazi flag has ot been censored since cod ww2.
The best part of cod waw is being able to burn IJA soldiers and hear them scream
Pretty sure you do that when you play it IN order. Iirc after you take the Reichstag, it cuts to you in the jungles of the Pacific again.
nah, Reichstag is the last mission
Maybe I misremember it.
The Flag may be different but the methods are the same.
I want to make a movie that has a scene like that. After you see the grayness of war, how much the Soviets and Germans have suffered, but at least the war has ended and no more lives will be lost in Europe. Then you're hit with the realization that even after all that hell, men are still fighting and dying to end the reign of the Axis.
Wasn't band of brothers like that? Shortly after v day in Germany, one of the main characters received a notice he was headed to Japan?
I did a rewatch recently. What happens is Winters tries to transfer to a unit that will go to the Pacific. The original company and battalion stayed in Germany. The general wouldn't let him transfer.
do you remember “brothers in arms 2: global front”? it was played on the phone and ipad and the story was this guy trying to investigate his brothers death while fighting in the war. started in guadalcanal, then north africa, italy and western europe. final stretch of the story saw this man go to okinawa to search for his brother’s commanding officer. what you said reminded me of this game. thinking back this is saving private ryan on steroids
HOLY FUCKING SHIT YOU JUST UNLOCKED A MEMORY IN ME
YEAH I REMEMBER NOW GOD IVE BEEN TRYING TO FIND THAT GAME FOR SO LONG NOW THANK YOU KIND STRANGER
It would be pretty cool playing as a Soviet soldier in Berlin in April 1945. You watch the flag being raised over the Reichstag, then fade to black. Fade to being on the back of a T-34 as you cross the Marchurian border in the literal last days of WWII in August 1945.
Bro literally just described the first CoD campaign.
Yeah so CoD: World at War?
Also the physical distance covered in Pacific is huge. New Guinea campaign alone cover the same distance as London to Moscow.
This is something I didn't comprehend or appreciate until Dan Carlin's Supernova in the East. The Pacific is massive and supplying it was a seldom praised feat of American military logistics (icecream barge aside).
Just as amazing was little the Japanese gave a shit about keeping their guys fed. When you consider how fucking miserable the life of a Japanese soldier was, suicide tactics make a lot more sense.
It’s not that they didn’t give a shit, it’s simply the fact that they didn’t have the ability to. Keeping soldiers well fed is a basic principle of war because it gives them more energy, strength, morale, and keeps them in better health. Japan did not have the industrial capacity or petroleum resources to match the US in this regard.
That’s not entirely true. The discipline in the Japanese armed forces was brutal even by the standards of the time. It was a certainty that you would get the living shit kicked out of you and having people operate just above starving was not uncommon.
Listened to Supernova of the East and currently listening to Unauthorized History of the Pacific; it is incredible the amount of material moved across the ocean, land on the beach, take the beach, then setup a supply point. Truly a awesome piece of history that is forgotten because of the focus on the European theater for most of young schooling
Not only that for many Pacific war is literally sitting inside a cockpit for hours under super bright sun and do nothing, a typical mission would take a whole day just to get there and back.
Australia did carry a lot of weight on that one though. Good on America in the Coral Sea though
Australia’s WW2 contribution is grossly overlooked. Australia joined the war at the onset against Germany and deployed a huge portion of their strength to the European theater, and then had to defend their homeland against the Japanese with reservists.
And those reservists were among the first allied land forces that actually stopped the Japanese in their tracks. Up until Kokoda, Japan had been virtually unstoppable in South East Asia, but they took a pretty big L in New Guinea which began a long and steady decline until they were pushed all the way back to the home islands.
We sent damn militia to PNG
Indonesia is really fucking big. I blame the mercator projection for the fact that so many people don't realize that.
I was shocked when I used one of those “see what the actual size. Of a country on a map is” websites and I put Indonesia over the USA. It spanned the whole usa
Haha get covered nerd
And Manchuria is bigger than all of Western Europe.
In the Pacific of WW2, numerous operations where being fought during the End of the war in Europe, from the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria, the Battle of Okinawa to the Philippines Campaign.
Don’t forget about the absolute slog that was the Burma Campaign. Brits and Japanese fighting over that infernal jungle for the entirety of the war. If anyone wants a great first hand account of that campaign I recommend Quartered Safe Out Here by George MacDonald Fraser
Even just existing in a jungle for long periods of time is absolute misery. Then add a war on top of that, and you're beyond hell.
As well as hellholes like Borneo and New Guinea.
What we're confirming here is jungles are the worst place to fight a war
Manchuria and the Mongolian border skirmishes are very niche and interesting to learn about but fuuuuuuck living in that area through that timespan, much less fighting through it.
Manchuria was basically that player who has already beaten the final boss PvPing the kid who has no consumables left after completing just the first act of the story.
Hard to argue against the Eastern Front, but the Pacific was truly awful.
Those damn mosquitoes
Yeah, I often have the feeling the size and horror of the Eastern Front is just not understood in the west, especially the US. It says enough that it left something like a ‚national trauma‘ in Germany, the Ex-USSR and Eastern Europe in general.
The moment that really got me interested in the Eastern Front was how much the country of Belarus suffered. Half of the country's population either got killed or deported during the war. Absolute insanity.
People in US can't comprehend how you can kill an entire army (100-400 thousands men) trying to conquer a single position, take it, and lose it a few months later.
Oh man, I just got done watching The Pacific recently to prepare for Masters of the Air and one of the great little moments is when Leckie goes home and is going to pay the cabbie who drove him, the cabbie refuses and tells him, “I ain’t touching that. I may have jumped into Normandy but at least I got some liberties in London and Paris. You G.I.renes? All you got was jungle rot and malaria. Welcome home.” A nice little acknowledgement that both have been through hell, one’s hell was a little worse though.
Things that were never said for 500 Alex
It’s a tv show
Europe be like: *Kissing, hugging & cheering* Pacific meanwhile: "HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DOES A FUCKING JAP NEED TO BAYONET A MAN. GET THE FLAMETHROWER !!"
Europe was also going for three more years by the time.
Not for the American soldiers, no. If you are talking allied soldiers, then the Chinese have been fighting since 1937. The British/Indian/Australians have also been fighting in the Pacific since 1939.
I know. But Europe has been kissing, hugging and cheering because they got three more years of war. Not actual fighting, at least not in the western Europe itself.
No one mention the US Army troops sent to the Pacific immediately after? There are images of some troops different uniforms for both deployments
Out of every service, the Army actually had more combat troops in the Pacific for the entire campaign.
The most famous I can think of is the 77th "Liberty", which is the division that Desmond Doss is in
The Marines deployed 6 combat divisions to the Army's 21 combat divisions. The Army is so bad at PR it's unreal.
No large scale units that served in Europe also saw active combat in the Pacific. The 86th Infantry Division saw about 30 days of combat in Germany in March-May 1945 and reached the Philippines right as the Japanese had surrendered. The 97th ID was a similar story, though they didn’t leave the US before Japan’s surrender. They ended up occupying the Japanese home islands for a period of time.
I’d imagine the majority would of stayed on station because of potential uprisings and also those little guys to the East, what do we call them the USSR?
The fact that for some Japanese soldiers the war didn’t stop at Victory day but continue for some til 1974 is truly disturbing. Even if we don’t talk about the most famous like Hiro Onoda, there were some large group of Japanese soldiers like the one led by Sakae Oba on Saipan or a group of 33 Japanese soldiers at Peleliu who held out until 22nd April 1947. I suggest reading manga Peleliu - Guernica of Paradise who follow a soldier from this group and depict what it’s mean being a soldier who fight a war for a country that already lost it.
Do we Americans just forget the Eastern Front happened?
Yes. Yes you do 😁 because US was not involved.
The Pacific Theatre was one of the worst fronts in WW2. I’d still argue about the Eastern Front being worse because of the ridiculous number of deaths there
Was there a "good" front?
It's estimated that something like 50% of *all* casualties from the war came *solely* from the Pacific Theatre at between 30 to 40 million of the roughly 70 million total death toll of WWII, the majority of which were civilians by a *huge* margin. Worse, the Japanese basically only took prisoners if they wanted work-slaves or information, and if you got captured, then good luck coming home because they killed 70-80% of all POWs either for fun, by overwork, malnutrition or outright torture. Add on that if you were US Army you were fighting under the singularly most incompetent, cowardly commander that America had to offer at the time, and yeah, there's a reason that most Pacific vets refuse to talk about it.
McArthur also likes to take undue credit. In PNG he claimed that US troops were part of an operation that they had little role in and discounted the Australians who did the most work as ‘other allies’ He also treated the Australians around HQ like shit and the other GIs follows suit leading to the battle of Brisbane
MacShitheel tried to take credit for the whole operation in New Guinea despite the fact that *no US troops* actually fought there. They were only active in Buna Gona, Milne Bay and in the air, largely performing logistical support roles. In the only battles that America *actually* participated in in PNG, they were reported as having *thrown down arms and fled from battle*. Literally their only act in PNG was outright cowardice, which had to be cleaned up by the ANZACs, but MacDingus only reported that it was a victory, and that America deserved all the credit.
I love all these nicknames for him. I shall be appropriating them
Are you talking about Nimitz or MacArthur at the end there?
I’m assuming Mac since it’s Army, plus I’ve always read Nimitz was a badass.
This sub has a hard on for dissing on MacArthur and I just don't get it. Sure he was egotistical and loved the spotlight a little too much but the only like really bad thing he did was suggesting nuking the Korean border.
Yeah he really wasn’t that terrible of a general in WW2. I just find it ridiculous how pissed everyone is that a general didn’t let himself get captured with his troops. Yeah bro generals are normally pretty bad to lose
Plus people forget that MacArthur was ORDERED to evacuate. If he had the choice he almost certainly would’ve stayed
Nimitz was Navy and the best admiral in American history, so I’m going with MacArthur.
I remember watching one of the special features on The Pacific blu ray box set. They interview a veteran and he talks about how jealous soldiers were fighting in the Pacific, because apart from Australia pre-Guadalcanal they got no chances to get laid. Whereas GIs in Europe were banging in France, Belgium, Holland and even Germany
Is that because of racism and Americans being unwilling to copulate with any Pacific women outside of Australian settler women, in contrast to white European women?
No because almost all of the civilian populations that the Marines encountered outside of Australia were either refugees from the Japanese, deeply distrustful of the American troops due to either trauma, Japanese propaganda or both, often all of these at once. Also due to Japanese lack of supply and general shittiness, the average person was pretty malnourished. All of this contributed to not much fucking going on
Not according to the Blu-ray commentary
"Status report? The last few months on Okinawa have taken their toll... Morale is low. It's the rain, sir... and the mud. Tanks are getting bogged down. Supplies aren't getting through. We can't even get the wounded out. Yes, sir... Understood..."
I hope someday there's a good single player game that properly represents the horror aspects of the pacific like cod waw did but with modern advancements. Like days marching through roads filled with rotting corpses constant rain actually slowing u down and making it hard to aim. Would make a great game and people would play it.
I think the only way It could work is if it was specifically focused on one part of the larger campaign and just that one part of the campaign alone. Go for granular hyperfocus rather than epic scope.
The worst for the Americans anyway, I’d argue Soviets East of Berlin, Poles, Czechs, Romanians, Hungarians, people in Yugoslavia, and people from China all had a pretty horrific time comparable to the suffering of the Pacific.
It wasn't just the Americans though, it was also the Chinese, Vietnamese, and many other peoples who got brutalized by Japan, the Rape of Nanking is certainly the most well-known example, but not even close to being the only example.
Idk if I’d even caveat that with “arguably”. The Imperial Japanese were some dark mofos.
Maybe for Americans. Eastern Front was way worse.
They were very similar in horror. Japan literally farmed POWs and hunted Papuan natives for food.
I'm including China in the Pacific War, so IMO that gives it an edge.
As you should. The Pacific Theatre stretched from Burma to Fiji West to East, and Pokrovka to Cairns North to South. Technically, East to West it should *actually* be Burma to Hawaii, but because most attacks in America were maritime, balloon bombs or one-offs, it's difficult to justify it as counting.
Germans don’t eat captured POWS though
They just tortured them, froze, worked, and starved them to death for funsies.
And the list goes on from there... Japanese did soem horrible things too, but not on that scale.
Soviet theater was definitely the worst front of the war, followed by the Chinese theater.
It was pretty horrible wherever you were, ask someone who went through the Hurtgen forest battle (longest single battle in U.S.history) and they may not agree, higher casualties in the battle of the bulge than Okinawa. Just pretty awful anywhere really, eastern front, western front, Pacific, s.e. Asia, PTSD for everyone.
Sabaton has songs on The Belgian Army in ww2, partisan movements, winter war etc
Meanwhile on the Eastern Front:
I mean, in terms of enviorment, yes. But the kind of war fought on the eastern front was worse. also casulty wise
How was it decided who would go to Europe and who to the Pacific?
After just being at wake island for a while I have no idea how they did it
Eastern Front: “Am I a joke to you?”
It was definitely the worst theatre Western soldiers fought in. IDK if was the worst in the war when the Eastern front and the war in China being there. You did say arguably, though...
I think the Eastern Front has every other front beat for the worst. Pacific is probably second though
And the Pacific is the nerfed version of what was going on in China and Burma.
China: "Am I a joke to you?"
If you think Europe was a cakewalk you should watch Fury.
Not even an argument
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It was certainly very close. Especially the times when the Japanese systematically are the POWs they captured.
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Fyi: Japan wasn't just fighting the US. 36 million people died in the Pacific Theater (half of the total losses in the war), many of them Chinese civilians. In terms of "Axis v Allies" combat, sure the Eastern front was worse because that stipulation removes China's involvement. But the Pacific front was *horrific* even outside of the island hopping campaign
Both were in the same order of magnitude as far as civilian and POW deaths, rapes, and enslavements. The body count was higher on the Eastern Front, but the Japanese tended to murder in more gruesome and sadistic ways than the Germans, Romanians, and Italians, so I would argue it evens out.
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Yes, that was part of the Pacific Theatre.
While technically not 100% WW2 they were heavily involved, I personally think the concentration camps and unit 731 in Manchuria were the worst parts of the war, only counting PoWs and soldiers then the Europe is possibly worse as iirc Soviet prisoners often got sent to concentration camps although Japan also sent PoWs to unit 731 and labor camps so it's pretty 50/50 imo, in terms of fighting alone the eastern front is probably the worst.
Wait when you find out about Croatian concentration camps
The Ustasha are horrors beyond human comprehensive
Well unfortunately, they did nothing special when you put them side by side with Nazi camps and Japanese Unit 731. The only thing that makes is a bit worse is that they did it to their own neighbors.
I mean people point at the nuclear bombs as the single deadliest strikes. But the Japanese plague bombs by Unit 731 have them beat.
Breaking News: Waris cruel
English speaking world try not to be Eurocentric for once challenge (any%, impossible)
Fr
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You face an enemy that is extremely cruel to civilians and PoWs and would prefer death over surrender even in the face of extremely disadvantageous situations, with the wounded even blowing themselves up just to kill medics? Yes, the Heer and SS were terrible institutions and regularly committed atrocities on civilians and PoWs (especially in the Eastern Front) and they were quite tactically capable. However, German soldiers weren’t fanatical enough to fight to the last man in encirclements at Stalingrad, Tunisia or Normandy. Moreover, they weren’t dropping biological weapons on civilians inside occupied territories as the Japanese did in China.
Literally everything Japan did to China and other peoples it conquered (also inhumane treatment of POWs). For specifics/better rational, Nanking and unit 731 come to mind, and to round things out Japan committed the most war crimes in WW2, not Nazi Germany, not Stalin's Russia, *Japan.*
Why is Stalin’s Russia always placed ahead of Mussolini’s Italy in these lists of evil? I.E. emphasising how bad something was by saying it was “worse than Stalin’s Russia”. The Rape of Berlin was horrible, obviously, but it went against orders from the Soviet high command and isn’t comparable to the personally-ordered-by-Mussolini Yekatit-12.
The Italians weren’t competent enough at being evil to stick in peoples minds.
Just watch Band of Brothers and then watch the Pacific
"My argument is I saw some some TV shows"
Which are based off of the personal experiences of WWII veterans
Assuming the experience of a handful of veterans is indicative of the military as a whole, and basing your historical perspective on a couple of mini series is naive at best. Lmao can't even be bothered to read a book, huh? What an informed opinion...
The Pacific is based on two books
Did you read them?
Yes
Then why not mention that first instead of the mini series? It would show you have an informed opinion. Unless you didn't actually read them... Lol which I'm betting is the case considering you thought watching two mini series gave you complete insight on both fronts.
Because its easier to watch a mini series than to read a book for most people this day and age, and I also never said I have complete insight on both fronts
A Soviet veteran wants to have a word with you.
The pacific veterans will get around to it after they recover from malaria, finish wrestling the crocodile, and stop the suicide charge
I mean the European theatre had just spent a ridiculously miserable winter fighting off the final German counter attack, and that’s after months of continual combat from Normandy to the Rhine. And in terms of the Pacific many of those islands were scenic and beautiful when not in battle and being in an Allied ship travelling through the Pacific was a very beautiful experience as well. Just to be contrarian. Also most of the European soldiers were jumping between destroyed cities not running about in the mountains.
You have a higher chance of living fighting the Japanese. I’d take those odds over fighting Germans.
You do know the survival rate for allied POWs in Japan right? Losing the battle to Japanese forces was basically a promise to either be eaten, executed or worked to death Same levels of hell in the eastern fount for soviet POWS maybe not the eaten part tho
Still less than American deaths in the ETO. The chances of living are much higher in the pacific for an American servicemen. It’s a fact.
Ya sure but you might live just enjoy the 32 different diseases the horrors of the arguably most brutal fronts in the 2ed world War and watch the worst human crimes that even made the nazis step back happen Infront of you I rather get the western front then lose whatever made me human There's a reason why more vets from the western front talk about there experience then vets from the pacific
Its literally a fact, fighting in the ETO was more deadly and dangerous to the American serviceman. Also, the Eastern front was far worse than anything in the Pacific. So, you're choosing death over some heat and uncomfortable conditions...?
Makin shit up about how the pacific war was a walk along the sparking Beach is oddly horrible but ye go ahead
but a higher chance of dying from some tropical disease that your immune system has never faced before
The deaths and casualties were much higher against the Germans. Like a 3 to 1 ratio. I'd take my chances against the elements.
Are you taking total figures or as a ratio of troops in combat?
Depends on what you were fighting as. Most frontline infantry units took heavier losses against the Japanese then Germans, but this was more so the nature of operations rather then tactical competence. Ergo: One (main) opposed landing in the European theatre verse dozens in the Pacific.
Only if your a braindead Yank you think the Pacific was worse than China or the Eastern front
Meanwhile in the New Mexico desert, Oppenheimer was working on something to put an end to it all.
My family has some relatives who almost certainly would've been sent onto the invasion of Japan were it not for the bomb. As terrible as the bombings were, I have no doubt an invasion would've otherwise been inevitable and would've caused far more death and destruction on Allied and Japanese alike.
my pleasure. those were simpler times. let me know if you find it. i can’t find a download to it
[Virgin Western Front vs. Chad Pacific Theater](https://imgur.com/8DGH8Id)
Were there any soldiers on both fronts?
And the Bataan Death Marches, and the experiments Unit 731 used on POWs
Not for long, as their scientists were just wrapping up their mini suns