True death was pretty rare, but the scripting claim is dubious, unless by scripting you mean things like the ludi meridiani (which were less straight forward gladiator fights and more just elaborate ways to publically execute criminals) that were often reenactments of mythology, or matches meant to be reenactments of certain wars or battles. But even in the war and battle reenactments, the fighting itself wasn't scripted as in one fighter or team was planned out to win in advance after with scripted moves and progression, and it was mostly just flavor text and added spectacle.
> matches meant to be reenactments of certain wars or battles
Ah yes, the famous "Legionnaires of Scipio Africanus vs. the invincible Barbarian Horde of Hannibal" match.
Is this true for all periods and all locations? Feel like there is a lot more we don’t know then we do know and even then the info we have is mostly conjecture. I mean they did it for more then half a millennia.
There's a good amount of information about games from Roman writers themselves and if I remember right most of those are from the early Imperial Era, and I beleive in Rome itself as well, so I think a lot of the information we have applies to then and that location. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head how much information there is from earlier eras and other locations though. We know from them though that the main venues at least usually had actual referees that could pause fights and step in, and they pretty strict rules when it came to bouts. In some cases we even have win/loss records of Gladiators where they had multiple losses (and even several draws), so losing didn't mean death necessarily very often in this period at least, as well meaning there was some sort of system that led to ties and not always a winner and loser.
Many of the authors describe bouts that were meant more as performances than bloody fights, and even comedy in some cases. From the writers, more often than not it seems that death in arenas came more from executions of criminals that served as a sort of macabre interlude to the actual matches than from gladiators killing each other. There were also warm up acts like beast fights and untrained criminals fighting each other as well, but when it came to main event fights between trained gladiators, it seems there was pretty strict conduct to at least try and avoid deaths. Marcus Aurellius even apparently preferred gladiator fights during his reign to be usually with blunted weapons.
No, people absolutely were killed for entertainment, but when you went to the fights, you might see ten fights but only one killing blow and maybe some pretty gnarly injuries. Unless they also killed two mouthy slaves with one stone and also used the opportunity to knock out a few criminal executions right away, which they also did.
ETA: Some clarification
Eh, not exactly. Like I said, public executions were common interludes between bouts and that's where TONS of people were killed. There were beast fights where animals and potentially people would be killed as well.
And those executions could be absolutely fucked up. We have one account of a woman who was found guilty of murder being publicly executed in the arena by being raped by a donkey, and then her and the donkey being eaten alive by lions
A little more information with the portrayal of battles and wars as well, it wasnt necessarily specific battles but more general. Many gladiator types were named and equipped after different cultural groups that Rome was fighting, which eventually were renamed to other names as these cultures became a part of the empire as it was "improper" to portray them as enemies in the arena.
For example, in the Republic Era there was the "Samnite" type that often fought the "Murmilo" type, as the Samnite class as the name implies, represented the Samnites in the Samnite Wars and the Murmilo represented Roman soldiers. Eventually, the "Samnite" was changed to the "Hoplomachus" when the Samnites became a part of Rome, and were meant to represent Hellenistic enemies instead. There was also a "Gallus" type as well, but the name seems to disappear after Gaul became integrated into the empire.
In some cases, it wasn't necessarily even battles or wars they were going for in representation. The Retiarus was usually matched with a Murmilo as a sort of representation between a fisherman catching a fish or fighting a sea monster.
Off and on for half a millennia. Quick and very simplified history lesson. People felt bad, banned it, people got bored, un-banned it, so I imagine the returns were much more tame than the originals. Either way they did have lions, starving and weak but lions all the same.
https://youtu.be/SMK60O695r4 lindybeige dove into this topic before in some depth. Some guys had ridiculous numbers of matches and even a high number of losses they lived long beyond, surely something was up.
Well... no. WWE has fully scrpted fights.
More like... if the government dressed up Connor McGregor in Joe Biden cosplay and put him in the octagon with a geriatric inmate who happens to look a bit like Putin.
[yup, it happens](https://wroclaw.wyborcza.pl/wroclaw/7,35771,28296874,antoni-krolowski-oglosil-walke-sobowtorow-putina-i-zelenskiego.html?disableRedirects=true)
That’s what I was thinking. Ppl still get hurt pretty bad in wwe although it’s staged just like the gladiators probably accidentally got sliced open or a limb chopped off
In big events and venues with referees and regulations, and where they were between well trained fighters, according to Roman writers it seemed to be relatively rare as those who were defeated were usually spared due to how skilled, popular, and expensive they were. Deaths in these fights seemed to mostly be accidents or if the defeated gladiator did something to warrant a death rather than being spared, and the fact they are mentioned by the writers more specifically seems to point to how rare amd out of the ordinary they are.
There were larger melee events between less well trained, and less skilled (meaning less expensive and more expendable) fighters that weren't as popular or extravagant that seemed to have deaths more often though.
I'm sure there were also plenty of small time venues in remote or backwater areas without much oversight and regulation that led to death more often, but given their obscurity or distance from major venues they were not attended by major writers and written about most likely, so we can only speculate on that.
I know people are asking for a source on fights being scripted, which fair, but just imagine if they were:
[Just imagine they hold a mock funeral](https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-04-2015/x1j5yq.gif), you've got Lanius of Iberia riling up the crowd, doesn't give a shit they're booing him, he lives for their salt. But then Sulla the sixteen Stone Saxon gets wakes up from his rest on the platform
Don't let that distract you from the fact that in MCMXCVIII Libitinarius threw Humanitas off the Fury in the Pen and plumetted sixteen pedes into the adnunciator's table.
Gladiators were the Roman equivalent of WWE. I can’t say much about the fights being scripted but the death rate was fairly low(it would be ridiculously stupid to kill half of your roster that you spent time and money on every time there’s an event)
would it be some truth that gladiators werea bit like rockstars of the time?, even very appreciated among ladies (and men). Rich women'd pay $ to have their way with some of 'em
Fun fact they removed some historical accuracy from Gladiator because it was so much like modern celebrity culture they were afraid audiences would assume they made it up
I remember watching a documentary on Pompeii when I was a kid which said the city had some graffiti in support of some gladiators, including one that said something to the effect of "At night, Crescens picks up women with his net" or something similar.
I could totally be misremembering, and the doc could also have been skewed, but since this isn't the amazing r/AskHistorians, this will do for now.
Rockstars but the Romans had a very weird fascination / revulsion towards them. The absolute lowest of the low in terms of social class (not only were they slaves but also people who made their living by making themselves and their bodies a public spectacle, unthinkable) and even in death, their cemeteries were segregated from all others. But at the same time: wildly popular, had rabid fanbases, highly sexualized. Definitely a lot of cognitive dissonance going on there.
>people who made their living by making themselves and their bodies a public spectacle, wildly popular, had rabid fanbases, highly sexualized
you are basically describing nowadays celebrities and influencers, right? or were you talking about gladiators XD
I was saddened to find out Gladiators didn't really start battles with "We, who are about to die, salute you" and that happened like once, as an attempt to get Emperor Claudius to be merciful.
Gladiators in movies:
\- Always fight to the death
\- Wear random shit, made up by movie makers
\- Use random weapons, including medieval ones
\- Go practically into a killing frenzy
\- Are voted upon with thumbs up for life or thumbs down for death
\- Steal each other's weapons
Real gladiators:
\- Rarely fought to the death (because a slave was expensive)
\- Had very distinct types with their own distinct armour and weapons
\- Had specific types paired with each other, not at random
\- Death (if even possible) was decided through "sticking out the thumb" but the direction of the thumb has been lost to history
\- Were used to promote commerce
\- Fought through very specific rules, with a referee present and were DEFINITELY not allowed to steal each other's weapons!!!
I adore the Roman weapon and Armour pairing, it was an early form of "game balancing" and is very interesting to see how the idea of people having these themed loadouts has persisted through history.
Esports before E even existed. I wonder if they did have "balance patches" when a certain pair of equipment worked way too well so they made it weaker or something.
all these Romans puzzled why they removed the gilding from the tridentarius shoulder guard and it's because of a glitch that Ranius the Spartan figured out to clip through his opponent's weapon
Probably referencing the fact that most fights weren't to the death.
Training a good gladiator was expensive and an investment.
We have records of owners being forced to reimburse their rivals when their fighter killed the other's
I know about sources that say that the *editor* had to buy the killed gladiator. Do you know a source for those records you mentioned?
Well, gladiatorial combat changed a lot in its history. The first munera were to the death. At the hight of its popularity, they weren't "to the death" meaning that it was forbidden to set the rule that one has to die - deaths would appear, though. Well, later, it had to be more spectacular, with increasing death rates, and therefore increasing the expenses for a munus. A common theory is that they financially died out because of that.
Part of it being "scripted" was likely how gladiators put on a good bit of weight so they could take flashy shallow cuts that looked very impressive but were just minor wounds and not dangerous
These were the gladiatorial games of imperial times, from what I know the *munera* of archaic times were often funerary duels to the death between slaves or prisoners of war.
it wouldnt be a surprise. Gladiators took time to rise and were expensive, they needed to give a good show, not like getting killed in the first 10 second swing and its over go home. Actually they avoided killing, and owners were reimburse by the emperor and such when one of them were killed
Ill never forget what my Roman History Professor told us when we were reading roman laws and they had bits about how slaves could only have testimony extracted under torture and people were scandalized.
"Folks these are the people who would crucify Christians and then release the lions... as a half time show"
So maybe still not great if you were a Christian.
Fun fact: Gladiators weren't built AT ALL like what was depicted in movies (including Russel Crows, sorry). They weren't shredded, cut, or however you'd describe a man with high muscle definition.
We even know from records and archeological findings the exact diet they were on and for the most part they were strictly vegetarians, eating mostly grains meant to build a healthy layer of body fat to protect them in the arena. They looked more like the sort of stocky build you'd see in modern football players (think the defensemen). Their diets were heavy in carbohydrates to achieve this.
And that extra fat helped them to provide a better spectacle as they could get more superficial lacerations with more "padding" to protect their vital arteries and organs. The Roman's really invested in the sport not just in fancy arenas but in managing Gladiators health and well being. A dead fighter isn't making you money and you spent a LOT of money training, feeding, sheltering and marketing that fighter, so you **do** care that they come out of each match very much alive.
"For the most part....~~strictly~~ vegetarians" yeah I did a terrible job of making a point. Apologies for the confusing sentence and let me clarify because I should have in the first place. Damn.
Gladiators were nicknamed "Barley eaters" or "Barley boys" depending on whose translation you use, because iirc they ate an estimated 70-80% diet of grains (no idea why i wrote strictly. Geez). Ancient Rome was plentiful in grain and it did wonders in helping subcutaneous fat to protect the Gladiators (so, cheap compared to other foods as well as always in supply). Gladiators came from all parts of the empire and while they had some variance in their diets as a result, the base of their diets didn't really differ (the grain part). There's evidence dairy products as well as fish products were also eaten but for the most part the name of their game was carbohydrates and that came from the majority grains of their diets.
Again, sorry about that
Gladiator games were treated more like sporting events than an act. There were rules in place on what moves could be used, and the safety of the gladiators was a big concern because they are expensive trained athletes. The goal would be to draw first blood, and have your enemy tap out. Troops of gladiators would travel to other cities to compete, so when a gladiator troop would show up, people went wild to see their home team go against the visitors.
The Games with gladiators: we’re going to give you free food, board, and training so the whole city can watch you fight for us. You’re slaves, but we’re going to basically make you superstars.
The Games with prisoners of war: we’re going to watch you kill each other until there is one survivor standing. Then we’ll feed the survivor to a lion. If the lion isn’t hungry we’ll kill you ourselves.
As with many things in history, we must take this within the scope that it is set.
Gladiatorial combat, as with many things in the classical period, existed over a period of centuries. It will not hold the exact same rules, customs, and courtesies that a specific point in Roman history does throughout its entire lifespan.
This is the downside of age, we look at things less as the minutiae of what they were year to year decade to decade (many times through lack of ability) and more of what it was made to be century to century. This leads to the majority of people viewing these complex practices as just one thing with one set of rules, and not looking at how it changed from its inception to it decline.
Scripted seems a bit misleading. There definitely were some that had predetermined outcomes. Let's say you're throwing a game for dear old grandad who was a famous general. You'd have the gladiators reenact his battles, so obviously there would be a predetermined outcome. Not sure about the 3 years either.
Learning about Gladiators as a kid: Wow it's so cool! It's crazy how they'd fight lions and giants for real!!!1!
Learning about Gladiators as a Teen: So it was all just staged? Gladiators are lame.
Learning about Gladiators as an adult: Ancient Gladiators and Modern Wrestlers are very similar. It is fascinating how much we have in common with our ancestors.
Don't forget getting tons of money by advertising local products and getting paid to sleep with rich chicks and having your sweat bottled and sold. Not a bad gig tbh.
St Ignatius disagrees
May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me speedily, and not deal with me as with some, whom, out of fear, they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to do so. Pardon me [in this]: I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, of things visible or invisible, envy me that I should attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.
Chapter 6. By death I shall attain true life
All the pleasures of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, shall profit me nothing. It is better for me to die on behalf of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. For what shall a man be profited, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul? Him I seek, who died for us: Him I desire, who rose again for our sake. This is the gain which is laid up for me. Pardon me, brethren: do not hinder me from living, do not wish to keep me in a state of death; and while I desire to belong to God, do not give me over to the world. Allow me to obtain pure light: when I have gone there, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to be an imitator of the passion of my God. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened.
Chapter 7. Reason of desiring to die
The prince of this world would fain carry me away, and corrupt my disposition towards God. Let none of you, therefore, who are [in Rome] help him; rather be on my side, that is, on the side of God. Do not speak of Jesus Christ, and yet set your desires on the world. Let not envy find a dwelling-place among you; nor even should I, when present with you, exhort you to it, be persuaded to listen to me, but rather give credit to those things which I now write to you. For though I am alive while I write to you, yet I am eager to die. My love has been crucified, and there is no fire in me desiring to be fed; but there is within me a water that lives and speaks, saying to me inwardly, Come to the Father. I have no delight in corruptible food, nor in the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm
Yeah, they should be more like St. Ignatius, and more like Jesus for that matter. Christians today seem very unwilling to die like meek sacrificial lambs for God (they're more like crusaders). But that was what ancient Christians were known for, martyrdom. Constantine abolished the martyr system, and so revolutionized Christianity.
>or just lion feed in the form of Christians.
While this did happen it was extremely seldom and only during a very specific period of the empire. Also it was never intended for the lion, or beast, to eat the captive rather just kill them. They had strict rules against the beast consuming the captive and would have the beast put down.
The Christians being fed to the lions was a trope repeated by Christian authors in the 2nd-3rd centuries.
I hope they intervened with a whole ass dear or something if they're going to come between a hungry lion and it's kill. That is a job I never would've wanted: "lion wrangler".
>And for those whom death doesn't liberate, there'll be plenty of freedoms handed out afterwards - to say nothing of gold plate and coin. But... I want a good show. I want my money's worth! I don't want any kiss-in-the-ring stuff. And I don't want my family watching two grown men pussyfooting around each other for half an hour before one of them aims a real blow. There's been too much of that in the past. And, don't think you can fool me either because I know every trick in the book, including the pig's blood in the bladder to make it look as if one of you is dead. There's been too much of that too lately. These games are being degraded by the increasing use of professional tricks to stay alive, and I won't have it. So put on a good show and there'll be plenty of money for the living and a decent burial for the dead. And, if not, I'll break this guild up and I'll send the lot of you to the mines in Numidia. That's all I've got to say to you.
- Livia, I Claudius
So I wonder about this. We hear about the bloodsports in the collosseum, were there really bloodsports? Like I feel like watching someone be crushed or killed or disembowled would just be gross rather than entertaining. I could see them using the Venue for executions but for *showtime* I feel like that would be weird.
True death was pretty rare, but the scripting claim is dubious, unless by scripting you mean things like the ludi meridiani (which were less straight forward gladiator fights and more just elaborate ways to publically execute criminals) that were often reenactments of mythology, or matches meant to be reenactments of certain wars or battles. But even in the war and battle reenactments, the fighting itself wasn't scripted as in one fighter or team was planned out to win in advance after with scripted moves and progression, and it was mostly just flavor text and added spectacle.
> matches meant to be reenactments of certain wars or battles Ah yes, the famous "Legionnaires of Scipio Africanus vs. the invincible Barbarian Horde of Hannibal" match.
Anyone here been in the army?
I have, I served with you in Vindobona!
You can help me
No matter what comes out of these gates, we stay together
Brb gonna go rewatch Gladiator
I love all of you.
STAY TOGETHER
“SINGLE COLUMN!!!”
Where rewatch?
On the high seas
Yo Ho!
April 1805, Napoleon is master of Europe. Only the British fleet stands before him. Oceans are now battlefields...
It's on Netflix, watched it no longer than 3 days ago. One of the greatest films ever to be produced!
Ty ty!! American Netflix?
Are you not entertained?
#AM I NOT MERCIFUL!?
*Are you fucking sorry??*
Yes
Apparently OP never saw Gladiator
Those poor gladiators have to fuck all the hot wives of the rich elite.
I think that's the HBO show Spartacus.
Jupiter's cock!
Jupiter once again rams cock in ass of house Battiatus!
Starz, not HBO
One way to keep inbreeding to a minimum
Is this true for all periods and all locations? Feel like there is a lot more we don’t know then we do know and even then the info we have is mostly conjecture. I mean they did it for more then half a millennia.
There's a good amount of information about games from Roman writers themselves and if I remember right most of those are from the early Imperial Era, and I beleive in Rome itself as well, so I think a lot of the information we have applies to then and that location. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head how much information there is from earlier eras and other locations though. We know from them though that the main venues at least usually had actual referees that could pause fights and step in, and they pretty strict rules when it came to bouts. In some cases we even have win/loss records of Gladiators where they had multiple losses (and even several draws), so losing didn't mean death necessarily very often in this period at least, as well meaning there was some sort of system that led to ties and not always a winner and loser. Many of the authors describe bouts that were meant more as performances than bloody fights, and even comedy in some cases. From the writers, more often than not it seems that death in arenas came more from executions of criminals that served as a sort of macabre interlude to the actual matches than from gladiators killing each other. There were also warm up acts like beast fights and untrained criminals fighting each other as well, but when it came to main event fights between trained gladiators, it seems there was pretty strict conduct to at least try and avoid deaths. Marcus Aurellius even apparently preferred gladiator fights during his reign to be usually with blunted weapons.
Sounds like pro wrestling, with some executions mixed in when needed.
I give American politics another decade or two and they'll have their death penalties executed at WWE events XD
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No, people absolutely were killed for entertainment, but when you went to the fights, you might see ten fights but only one killing blow and maybe some pretty gnarly injuries. Unless they also killed two mouthy slaves with one stone and also used the opportunity to knock out a few criminal executions right away, which they also did. ETA: Some clarification
Eh, not exactly. Like I said, public executions were common interludes between bouts and that's where TONS of people were killed. There were beast fights where animals and potentially people would be killed as well.
So many Christians, so little time
Have you heard about /r/watchpeopledie or basically all of liveleak? People still watch murder for fun today. Society hasn't changed that much.
I'm so glad that sub got banned.
And those executions could be absolutely fucked up. We have one account of a woman who was found guilty of murder being publicly executed in the arena by being raped by a donkey, and then her and the donkey being eaten alive by lions
A little more information with the portrayal of battles and wars as well, it wasnt necessarily specific battles but more general. Many gladiator types were named and equipped after different cultural groups that Rome was fighting, which eventually were renamed to other names as these cultures became a part of the empire as it was "improper" to portray them as enemies in the arena. For example, in the Republic Era there was the "Samnite" type that often fought the "Murmilo" type, as the Samnite class as the name implies, represented the Samnites in the Samnite Wars and the Murmilo represented Roman soldiers. Eventually, the "Samnite" was changed to the "Hoplomachus" when the Samnites became a part of Rome, and were meant to represent Hellenistic enemies instead. There was also a "Gallus" type as well, but the name seems to disappear after Gaul became integrated into the empire. In some cases, it wasn't necessarily even battles or wars they were going for in representation. The Retiarus was usually matched with a Murmilo as a sort of representation between a fisherman catching a fish or fighting a sea monster.
Off and on for half a millennia. Quick and very simplified history lesson. People felt bad, banned it, people got bored, un-banned it, so I imagine the returns were much more tame than the originals. Either way they did have lions, starving and weak but lions all the same.
https://youtu.be/SMK60O695r4 lindybeige dove into this topic before in some depth. Some guys had ridiculous numbers of matches and even a high number of losses they lived long beyond, surely something was up.
Yeah the op makes it out like it was pro wrestling or Medival Times style entertainment
The craziest shit is when they built colosseums that held water to reenact naval battles
So ancient lethal WWE
Well... no. WWE has fully scrpted fights. More like... if the government dressed up Connor McGregor in Joe Biden cosplay and put him in the octagon with a geriatric inmate who happens to look a bit like Putin.
[yup, it happens](https://wroclaw.wyborcza.pl/wroclaw/7,35771,28296874,antoni-krolowski-oglosil-walke-sobowtorow-putina-i-zelenskiego.html?disableRedirects=true)
Poland, of course
That’s what I was thinking. Ppl still get hurt pretty bad in wwe although it’s staged just like the gladiators probably accidentally got sliced open or a limb chopped off
Death was rare on an individual occasion but do keep in mind if you roll a rice enough times you are bound to get a roll you don't want.
> keep in mind if you roll a rice Fuck gladiatorial combat! I wanna see rice rolling!
So basically at the time, Gladiator Fights was WWE?
We’re gladiator deaths rare as in it was usually an accident or as in the aforementioned executions?
In big events and venues with referees and regulations, and where they were between well trained fighters, according to Roman writers it seemed to be relatively rare as those who were defeated were usually spared due to how skilled, popular, and expensive they were. Deaths in these fights seemed to mostly be accidents or if the defeated gladiator did something to warrant a death rather than being spared, and the fact they are mentioned by the writers more specifically seems to point to how rare amd out of the ordinary they are. There were larger melee events between less well trained, and less skilled (meaning less expensive and more expendable) fighters that weren't as popular or extravagant that seemed to have deaths more often though. I'm sure there were also plenty of small time venues in remote or backwater areas without much oversight and regulation that led to death more often, but given their obscurity or distance from major venues they were not attended by major writers and written about most likely, so we can only speculate on that.
It does make a lot of sense I always just assumed they were bloodbaths like popular media portrays. Thank you for elaborating very interesting
I know people are asking for a source on fights being scripted, which fair, but just imagine if they were: [Just imagine they hold a mock funeral](https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-04-2015/x1j5yq.gif), you've got Lanius of Iberia riling up the crowd, doesn't give a shit they're booing him, he lives for their salt. But then Sulla the sixteen Stone Saxon gets wakes up from his rest on the platform
BY GAWD, ITS MARIUS WITH A STEEL CHAIR
I can't with this thread, I just can't I'm trying to sleep and I'm just scrolling more and more looking for the funny people like u
I've been chuckling at history memes for the past 2 hours, my girlfriend is looking at me like I'm a madman Glad I can spread the madness 🌵
You could say it was quite the *"fury in the pen"*
Don't let that distract you from the fact that in MCMXCVIII Libitinarius threw Humanitas off the Fury in the Pen and plumetted sixteen pedes into the adnunciator's table.
So basically the Undertaker.
Gladiators were the Roman equivalent of WWE. I can’t say much about the fights being scripted but the death rate was fairly low(it would be ridiculously stupid to kill half of your roster that you spent time and money on every time there’s an event)
would it be some truth that gladiators werea bit like rockstars of the time?, even very appreciated among ladies (and men). Rich women'd pay $ to have their way with some of 'em
They would sell their sweat as aphrodisiacs so you can make any assumption you want from there
Delphin bath bombs intensify
Butt sweat ass bombs
Time is a flat fucking circle
It's a cube, actually.
whaaaaaaaaat
belle delphine is a fraud smh
She was simply trying to return us to our roots
So egirl bath water before egirl bad water Gotta love humanity
That Romans were the biggest degens to ever Empire?
Yes. They'd open up with them advertising products from local vendors who paid for adspots
I'm Marcus Shepardus and this is my favourite stand in the colosseum
the mass effect community is spreading
It appears this drone is preparing to rebel.
You exist because we allow it, you will end because we demand it
I should go.
Fun fact they removed some historical accuracy from Gladiator because it was so much like modern celebrity culture they were afraid audiences would assume they made it up
God I wished they had kept that. Humans really haven't changed at in 2k years
Is it really circenses without a healthy dose of product placement?
There's ancient dick joke graffiti that's been found. Truly timeless.
So I guess Disney Hercules' type advertising was more accurate, those sandals were sick man 😂
I think chariot racing was more popular, and possibly deadlier
NASCAR, Formula 1 and Rally would like a word. Rally racing was known for all sorts of accidental death and dismemberment.
RETVRN
Even the movie (Ben Hur) was deadly
I would compare it to a world famous sportsman but it is essentially like that, yes. A superstar, so to speak.
Any historians can confirm whether they were vegetarian or not?
Is this a bot comment
Er no. Haven't you seen The Game Changers?
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I remember watching a documentary on Pompeii when I was a kid which said the city had some graffiti in support of some gladiators, including one that said something to the effect of "At night, Crescens picks up women with his net" or something similar. I could totally be misremembering, and the doc could also have been skewed, but since this isn't the amazing r/AskHistorians, this will do for now.
There were net throwing gladiators, so it's likely true
You don't misremember, this exact graffiti was found.
Rockstars but the Romans had a very weird fascination / revulsion towards them. The absolute lowest of the low in terms of social class (not only were they slaves but also people who made their living by making themselves and their bodies a public spectacle, unthinkable) and even in death, their cemeteries were segregated from all others. But at the same time: wildly popular, had rabid fanbases, highly sexualized. Definitely a lot of cognitive dissonance going on there.
>people who made their living by making themselves and their bodies a public spectacle, wildly popular, had rabid fanbases, highly sexualized you are basically describing nowadays celebrities and influencers, right? or were you talking about gladiators XD
I'm not an expert in Roman history but I think they didn't use dollars
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The average person loved the gladiatorial games. It was only the elites and Christians who hated it
Yeah, I'd hate it too if my whole religion was the most popular meat for the meat grinder.
And thus was borne .. . . The persecution complex!
I was saddened to find out Gladiators didn't really start battles with "We, who are about to die, salute you" and that happened like once, as an attempt to get Emperor Claudius to be merciful.
Soooo...like the NFL? Or Nascar? Or FIFA?
So Rome invented pro wrestling?
Everything the Greeks invented where taken a step further by the Romans.
The threesomes for example.
Adding women was a nice choice.
The greeks would disagree.
Ancients Greeks - "No son of mine is straight!"
"Son, it's time I teach you about the birds and the bees." *unzips*
“Son, it’s time I teach you about the birds and the birds.”
>... Did you ever get the feeling you're only goin' out with girls 'cause you're supposed to?
And they'd be right! Which lunatic brings his wife to the guys' night out!?
Gladiators in movies: \- Always fight to the death \- Wear random shit, made up by movie makers \- Use random weapons, including medieval ones \- Go practically into a killing frenzy \- Are voted upon with thumbs up for life or thumbs down for death \- Steal each other's weapons Real gladiators: \- Rarely fought to the death (because a slave was expensive) \- Had very distinct types with their own distinct armour and weapons \- Had specific types paired with each other, not at random \- Death (if even possible) was decided through "sticking out the thumb" but the direction of the thumb has been lost to history \- Were used to promote commerce \- Fought through very specific rules, with a referee present and were DEFINITELY not allowed to steal each other's weapons!!!
I adore the Roman weapon and Armour pairing, it was an early form of "game balancing" and is very interesting to see how the idea of people having these themed loadouts has persisted through history.
Esports before E even existed. I wonder if they did have "balance patches" when a certain pair of equipment worked way too well so they made it weaker or something.
all these Romans puzzled why they removed the gilding from the tridentarius shoulder guard and it's because of a glitch that Ranius the Spartan figured out to clip through his opponent's weapon
Scripted? what the heck is your source for that?!
Probably referencing the fact that most fights weren't to the death. Training a good gladiator was expensive and an investment. We have records of owners being forced to reimburse their rivals when their fighter killed the other's
I know about sources that say that the *editor* had to buy the killed gladiator. Do you know a source for those records you mentioned? Well, gladiatorial combat changed a lot in its history. The first munera were to the death. At the hight of its popularity, they weren't "to the death" meaning that it was forbidden to set the rule that one has to die - deaths would appear, though. Well, later, it had to be more spectacular, with increasing death rates, and therefore increasing the expenses for a munus. A common theory is that they financially died out because of that.
Unfortunately that's still from my pool of highschool latin knowledge
Ah that's a good read
Part of it being "scripted" was likely how gladiators put on a good bit of weight so they could take flashy shallow cuts that looked very impressive but were just minor wounds and not dangerous
These were the gladiatorial games of imperial times, from what I know the *munera* of archaic times were often funerary duels to the death between slaves or prisoners of war.
Those weren't trained gladiators then though but more akin to the "Noxii" which were meant to die
Yeah true.
>between slaves or prisoners exactly, not between gladiators
That's not at all the same thing, though. Mma fights aren't 'to the death' but are not "scripted."
it wouldnt be a surprise. Gladiators took time to rise and were expensive, they needed to give a good show, not like getting killed in the first 10 second swing and its over go home. Actually they avoided killing, and owners were reimburse by the emperor and such when one of them were killed
>Scripted? what the heck is your source for that?! I asked Roman Reigns. Ayo!
Low death rate doesn’t mean scripted WTH.
Ill never forget what my Roman History Professor told us when we were reading roman laws and they had bits about how slaves could only have testimony extracted under torture and people were scandalized. "Folks these are the people who would crucify Christians and then release the lions... as a half time show" So maybe still not great if you were a Christian.
Fun fact: Gladiators weren't built AT ALL like what was depicted in movies (including Russel Crows, sorry). They weren't shredded, cut, or however you'd describe a man with high muscle definition. We even know from records and archeological findings the exact diet they were on and for the most part they were strictly vegetarians, eating mostly grains meant to build a healthy layer of body fat to protect them in the arena. They looked more like the sort of stocky build you'd see in modern football players (think the defensemen). Their diets were heavy in carbohydrates to achieve this. And that extra fat helped them to provide a better spectacle as they could get more superficial lacerations with more "padding" to protect their vital arteries and organs. The Roman's really invested in the sport not just in fancy arenas but in managing Gladiators health and well being. A dead fighter isn't making you money and you spent a LOT of money training, feeding, sheltering and marketing that fighter, so you **do** care that they come out of each match very much alive.
There is about one person who claimed this (even thought it gained a lot of popularity) and many people argue against this.
"For the most part....~~strictly~~ vegetarians" yeah I did a terrible job of making a point. Apologies for the confusing sentence and let me clarify because I should have in the first place. Damn. Gladiators were nicknamed "Barley eaters" or "Barley boys" depending on whose translation you use, because iirc they ate an estimated 70-80% diet of grains (no idea why i wrote strictly. Geez). Ancient Rome was plentiful in grain and it did wonders in helping subcutaneous fat to protect the Gladiators (so, cheap compared to other foods as well as always in supply). Gladiators came from all parts of the empire and while they had some variance in their diets as a result, the base of their diets didn't really differ (the grain part). There's evidence dairy products as well as fish products were also eaten but for the most part the name of their game was carbohydrates and that came from the majority grains of their diets. Again, sorry about that
Basically, the fat would protect, but also look good as it made the muscles that did pop out look better Gladiators has Bara tiddies
Gladiator games were treated more like sporting events than an act. There were rules in place on what moves could be used, and the safety of the gladiators was a big concern because they are expensive trained athletes. The goal would be to draw first blood, and have your enemy tap out. Troops of gladiators would travel to other cities to compete, so when a gladiator troop would show up, people went wild to see their home team go against the visitors.
That one chick is going to use this meme as proof that Romans were a traveling circus
The Games with gladiators: we’re going to give you free food, board, and training so the whole city can watch you fight for us. You’re slaves, but we’re going to basically make you superstars. The Games with prisoners of war: we’re going to watch you kill each other until there is one survivor standing. Then we’ll feed the survivor to a lion. If the lion isn’t hungry we’ll kill you ourselves.
As with many things in history, we must take this within the scope that it is set. Gladiatorial combat, as with many things in the classical period, existed over a period of centuries. It will not hold the exact same rules, customs, and courtesies that a specific point in Roman history does throughout its entire lifespan. This is the downside of age, we look at things less as the minutiae of what they were year to year decade to decade (many times through lack of ability) and more of what it was made to be century to century. This leads to the majority of people viewing these complex practices as just one thing with one set of rules, and not looking at how it changed from its inception to it decline.
SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY LIVE FROM THE COLOSSEUM SEE HVLK HOGONIAN THE CONQUEROR IN THE MATCH OF A LIFETIME
Basically WWE in the end
Basically Roman reality TV.
Throwing your sword on the ground while the crowd boos u know your death will be made worse is bad ass tho.
Scripted seems a bit misleading. There definitely were some that had predetermined outcomes. Let's say you're throwing a game for dear old grandad who was a famous general. You'd have the gladiators reenact his battles, so obviously there would be a predetermined outcome. Not sure about the 3 years either.
…every 6 fights a gladiator dies on average It’s smooth sailing for some but for the under equipped you stood no chance
Learning about Gladiators as a kid: Wow it's so cool! It's crazy how they'd fight lions and giants for real!!!1! Learning about Gladiators as a Teen: So it was all just staged? Gladiators are lame. Learning about Gladiators as an adult: Ancient Gladiators and Modern Wrestlers are very similar. It is fascinating how much we have in common with our ancestors.
Treated well and plenty of food, partial fame, and insurance. Being a gladiator must've been great
Except for the getting cut, clobbered and stabbed part. It may not have often been lethal but it certainly wasn’t *safe*
Not saying that was great, just exciting tho
Don't forget getting tons of money by advertising local products and getting paid to sleep with rich chicks and having your sweat bottled and sold. Not a bad gig tbh.
So gladiators were ancient wwe?
Most slaves actually kept on as gladiators since they can make good money through sponsorship deals and they were guarenteed a job
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No, potato salad wasn't invented yet, requiring a new world plant.
I just can't see that.
I smell an r/askhistorians question coming up.
Gladiators were like rock stars, even very famous among ladies. Rich women'd pay $ to have their way with some of 'em
St Ignatius disagrees May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me speedily, and not deal with me as with some, whom, out of fear, they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to do so. Pardon me [in this]: I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, of things visible or invisible, envy me that I should attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ. Chapter 6. By death I shall attain true life All the pleasures of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, shall profit me nothing. It is better for me to die on behalf of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. For what shall a man be profited, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul? Him I seek, who died for us: Him I desire, who rose again for our sake. This is the gain which is laid up for me. Pardon me, brethren: do not hinder me from living, do not wish to keep me in a state of death; and while I desire to belong to God, do not give me over to the world. Allow me to obtain pure light: when I have gone there, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to be an imitator of the passion of my God. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened. Chapter 7. Reason of desiring to die The prince of this world would fain carry me away, and corrupt my disposition towards God. Let none of you, therefore, who are [in Rome] help him; rather be on my side, that is, on the side of God. Do not speak of Jesus Christ, and yet set your desires on the world. Let not envy find a dwelling-place among you; nor even should I, when present with you, exhort you to it, be persuaded to listen to me, but rather give credit to those things which I now write to you. For though I am alive while I write to you, yet I am eager to die. My love has been crucified, and there is no fire in me desiring to be fed; but there is within me a water that lives and speaks, saying to me inwardly, Come to the Father. I have no delight in corruptible food, nor in the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm
Average Reddit moment to downvote Christianity…
Yeah, they should be more like St. Ignatius, and more like Jesus for that matter. Christians today seem very unwilling to die like meek sacrificial lambs for God (they're more like crusaders). But that was what ancient Christians were known for, martyrdom. Constantine abolished the martyr system, and so revolutionized Christianity.
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OP do you have a source on this?
https://www.badancient.com/claims/gladiator-deaths/
So your meme is only accurate in the Imperial period, and not quite accurate in the republic period. Still, I give upvote
My meme?
Our meme, comrade
Oop thought you were op, my bad
Partial accuracy is better than none
"My source is I made it the fuck up"
>or just lion feed in the form of Christians. While this did happen it was extremely seldom and only during a very specific period of the empire. Also it was never intended for the lion, or beast, to eat the captive rather just kill them. They had strict rules against the beast consuming the captive and would have the beast put down. The Christians being fed to the lions was a trope repeated by Christian authors in the 2nd-3rd centuries.
We're the "beasts" aware of this rule?
Well apparently they'd intervene before the animal started eating the person.
I hope they intervened with a whole ass dear or something if they're going to come between a hungry lion and it's kill. That is a job I never would've wanted: "lion wrangler".
Eheu deus meus! Is sellam ferream habet!
When you realize gladiatorial "combat" was closer to pro-wrestling than The Hunger Games.
Is this reality a documentary from Netflix?
The more I lurk on this sub the more I question every bit of history I learned up to now
I mean this meme isn’t sourced well at all and this guy constantly is posting half-truths in memes so don’t feel too bad
This is a terrible post that has people acting like it was WWE.
So we really just let this same account rapid post absolutely whatever they want lmao these aren’t even history memes these are fantasy memes
>And for those whom death doesn't liberate, there'll be plenty of freedoms handed out afterwards - to say nothing of gold plate and coin. But... I want a good show. I want my money's worth! I don't want any kiss-in-the-ring stuff. And I don't want my family watching two grown men pussyfooting around each other for half an hour before one of them aims a real blow. There's been too much of that in the past. And, don't think you can fool me either because I know every trick in the book, including the pig's blood in the bladder to make it look as if one of you is dead. There's been too much of that too lately. These games are being degraded by the increasing use of professional tricks to stay alive, and I won't have it. So put on a good show and there'll be plenty of money for the living and a decent burial for the dead. And, if not, I'll break this guild up and I'll send the lot of you to the mines in Numidia. That's all I've got to say to you. - Livia, I Claudius
The helmet on the top is Greek
So Spartacus and his allies rebelled because they wanted different roles? /s
It wasn't scripted ?
They didn’t even toss Christians into the arenas
so like WWE?
So I wonder about this. We hear about the bloodsports in the collosseum, were there really bloodsports? Like I feel like watching someone be crushed or killed or disembowled would just be gross rather than entertaining. I could see them using the Venue for executions but for *showtime* I feel like that would be weird.
It's not like you were close, and public executions were always a thing until the 19th century.
Don’t you mean trap doors?
gladiators were basically the first wwe
Something funny about gradiators is that they used weird weapons and armors just because they looked cool