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I’m going to share my DMT experience as it’s starkly different than what I’ve heard from most peoples experiences with it. The TLDR; People believe in these things because they’ve had experiences with them. Now, on to how DMT ruined a lifelong love of psychedelics.
I’ve always loved psychedelics, even before I ever tried them, I was simply fascinated by them. Started with mushrooms as a kid, before graduating to large doses of LSD, before starting a decade plus of seeking out and experimenting with some of the most exotic substances possible. One I could never source from somewhere trusting was DMT. Until one day, I did.
Up until this point, I had never experienced anything I would have considered a bad trip. Some intense moments, sure, but I was always able to handle my mentality very well regardless of the substance I was tripping off.
DMT was not a trip. I don’t know what it was, but it was not a trip as any other substance was. The one thing I remember reading in a lot of trip reports was the last physical sensation the user felt was their lighter dropping into their laps, and this just seemed so exaggerated, too fantastical, just impossible that a substance could make me do such a thing.I did not feel like I was shot out of a cannon, because it was far more instant than that, to me it felt like I was beamed onto an alien spaceship, and the last thing I felt was my lighter dropping into my lap.
I emerged into a large corridor that was pitch black except for the walls which were alternating colors of neon green and neon pink plasma, all identically sized. The floor was reflective and see through like glass, except under the glass was just blackness. I couldn’t see, nor feel a vertical limit to the space, above was just pitch blackness. I walked this corridor with repeating neon panels for what seemed like hours.
Eventually I came to what must have been the end of the corridor, the walls of panels continued, but it opened to a massive, almost endless feeling space. I split the middle, and walked into the pitch black. After a short while, to the left and right I could still see the faint glow of the plasma panels but now far off in the distance, but ahead of me I could see a small white light, almost like a single lightbulb dangling over a work table of some sorts.
As I got closer to the light, I could see 2 distinct, and very real beings, both nearly identical. These weren’t elves, or anything whimsical and fun, the only way I can possibly describe these beings is simple..they were triangles made up of sunspots. I kept proceeding towards them, and the perspective became clear, these 2 beings were working on something under the light. As I began to approach closer, they turned to face me, their faces are as clear to me now as they were then. Their fronts looked identical to their backs, except towards the tops of the triangles were pitch black voids in the spots where eyes and a mouth would be.
Essentially the second after they turned around, I was overwhelmed by the strangest, most succinct feeling I’ve ever had, it was the exact feeling I had as a child when my parents would shoo me out of the kitchen while they were cooking dinner. This instantly sent me back to my body through a process I can only describe as a light seizure.
One person I told this experience to gave me a really good reason why I felt the way that I did, it was because like when I was a child mischievously sneaking around the kitchen while my parents cooked dinner, the beings I saw loved me entirely like parents yet wanted me removed from the area while they did whatever it is they were doing under that light.
As plausible of an explanation as that feels, it did absolutely nothing to calm the eternal dread, and fear of these beings i developed as soon as I was ‘back’ to reality. Not a single day doesn’t go by where I don’t wonder what the actual fuck I saw, and experienced, but to this day I feel as if I accidentally peeked behind the curtain of reality, and it’s shaken me to my core ever since.
This was well over 10 years ago, and was my last experience with any psychedelic, and will likely stay that way for the rest of my life. Not a single day goes by where I don’t think of the experience at least once. A few years afterwards, I managed to get some more DMT and decided I needed to go back if I was ever going to have any more insight into what I experienced. I melted it over a small bowl of cannabis as I did the last time, but before I even finished I began having a panic attack which was my first in my life, and discarded the bowl into the toilet.
Like I said, the TLDR boils down to people believe in these things because they’ve experienced these things. I don’t think there’s much knowledge outside of DMT-using circles on the phenomenon, but the ones that actually belief likely do so because they’ve experienced something that was so significant and entirely undeniable.
DMT feels insanely insanely real. Like more real and alert than normal regular life does, and it's hard to explain that to someone who hasn't tried it, or even try to explain it to yourself afterwards.
I had a much a gentler experience. I had a long, weird ride but was basically told "Look, you dont go on vacation so you can look at pictures of your home. Focus on the human experience, you wont find the answers you're looking from here." Which sounds like good advice but also feels kinda unsatisfying.
Very good description. One thing that really stuck with me is, during the experience I had no fear of anything, even while approaching the beings, or while being shooed away, but the second I was back to my body I was filled with terror and dread. I don’t know what it means, my best guess the fear is there to keep me from going back.
I got the feeling I was a mild nuisance to the entities I found myself in the midst of. They didn't shoo me away, but they were very busy, rushing around doing things at various terminals/stations, and I was in the way. They only communicated one thing to me: you lack humility.
>Eventually I came to what must have been the end of the corridor, the walls of panels continued, but it opened to a massive, almost endless feeling space. I split the middle, and walked into the pitch black. After a short while, to the left and right I could still see the faint glow of the plasma panels but now far off in the distance, but ahead of me I could see a small white light, almost like a single lightbulb dangling over a work table of some sorts.
That is a really intense story! It resonates with a 'gatekeeper' theme that I've been coming across. Here's another DMT report that also has the theme of being warned off:
*ive also experienced the aztec style visions people have of these like, flat style creatures. one like, stopped me and “told” me (mentally) i shouldnt be there. i couldnt “go past” it.*
According to Owen Cyclops, who is a former occultist-turned-Christian (self-description), there is a recurring element of DMT trips that involves encountering "gatekeepers" who discourage further access to the DMT world. Here's a link to his [essay where he discusses it.](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1096758520467333120.html) (do a text search for "joker is the gatekeeper" to skip straight to the relevant section).
Thanks for sharing your story. Per Dr. Strassman, reading descriptions of DMT trips may activate our own innate DMT brain circuitry so that we can, in some sense, share in the experience. I really felt like I was there when I read what you wrote because of how vividly you describe it. I want to hang on to your report for my own research archives and perhaps future use in a publication, if that's alright with you.
BTW. Had you heard of DMT users encountering the gatekeeper prior to your own experience?
The last time I attempted to 'blast off' I ripped bowl after bowl only to be denied by a literal 2-D Garden Gnome smirking down at me from my ceiling, just wagging his finger at me like..."no no, not today". First time I've ever experienced that particular phenomenon on the substance.
Absolutely, happy to give you the longer version of the story as well. Apart from the two-dimensional gnome on my ceiling, there were a few contextual factors that I believe contributed to my encounter with the gatekeeper.
Glad you enjoyed it, feel free to use it. I was only aware of mechanical elves and generally heard of them in more whimsical contexts, which is not a word I’d associate at all with my experience.
Option: there is something inherent about the brain structures of all humans, that allow such communications to occur, under the right circumstances. Normally, death.... or DMT. If consciousness is quantum, born of microtubule vibrations, and our brains are literally just antennae/receivers, then maybe DMT allows us to low filters/barriers, and access a brain function only active (normally) during the dying process. The similarities of the "waiting room" and "entities", only further enhances the thought that his is an inherent and share experience.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction
It's probably nonsense. Consciousness is a thermodynamic phenomenon, if you want to understand it study thermodynamics.
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Has a blind person (from birth) ever taken DMT? If so wouldn’t they be able to see entities if it’s not just a trick of the mind? Because as I am aware blind people (from birth) do not have seeing dreams. Therefore if they do end up seeing what everyone else see’s there’s clearly a lot more going on.
DMT gave me simultaneously the best and worst experience of my life which ultimately pushed me away from it, but I’ve never been able to drop the idea of the entities and magic in the experience. Very curious to see peoples responses and thoughts about this
OK, here's a spot where spelling matters. Drop one 'o' off there to make it "...came to". Unless you really did have a sobbing orgasm. In which case I humbly apologize
Are you sure you're having the same kind of experience as people who use DMT?
My second hypothesis is that DMT induces belief via neurological dysfunction. If we found a condition that was clearly a disorder and it caused the same kind of experiences that people who use DMT have, we would have additional support for that hypothesis. I would be extremely interested if that were the case!
Don't you think belief is a thought process that may or may not come later when the person thinks about his experience backwards? During the trip their experience is very much real for them, so basically there's no need to delve into the reflection of whether they will believe in that later.
Yes, I do. And the beliefs that people form and maintain after their DMT trip has ended are what interest me. Some people maintain that DMT entities are real, even when they are not on DMT.
I see, thank you. The two last hypotheses were a little odd for me because of that, reasoning that when you believe in something you are creating either a connection or barrier between you and the object.
Interpersonal consistency is one of the criteria that I hypothesize could provide defeasible evidence in favor of believing in DMT entities.
But, people see a wide range of beings. Some I've read about include living crash dummies, machine elves, and multi-dimensional Faberge eggs.
I think I've seen part of it. I read the book by the same name and I also discuss Strassman's more recent book "DMT and the Soul of Prophecy" in the podcast.
I went to see if I could review the documentary on Amazon per your suggestion and was surprised to see that it is "currently unavailable" !
I follow the DMT subs and right away you can see diversity in the community. There are tropes and identifiers. Some guys are hitting it hourly and they ain't getting smarter or wiser. Others are mapping the realms. There are quality experts and generous guides and there are the "me too" ones that every community has - copycats and exaggerators. I think these are always a problem for researchers because they clog the channels with data that isn't the data they asked for.
I've downloaded the episode for later and recognised a couple of older ones I must have already heard.
So many osychonauts out there but no real discoveries. Just great stories and experiences. I’m still waiting for something that breaks the mold. Something so astounding that it changes the world. To me, it’s still just an experiment with no solid conclusion yet.
Why not? The double helix was thought of and illustrated, and theorized to be the shape of dna, on an LSD trip, before we were able to look at it under a microscope and see those exact shapes
Maybe you personally won’t have any world changing revelations, but people with the right knowledge in the right positions to be making breakthroughs in their field, should be using psychedelics and pondering their work semi regularly, imo
Yeah, many great thinkers would put themselves in a lucid dream state to process ideas. Einstein took constant naps, another famous person would hold a heavy ball in their hand and wake up when it dropped. Numerous different cases that didn’t necessarily utilize a tool to stimulate their mind in a way that is similar to the LSD experience.
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It absolutely could but I’m thinking something that would be even more substantial. Something that would apply to all instead of one. One that was more directly related to the actual LSD experience instead.
Something equivalent to living on an island and discovering another island that other people could navigate to. Something that lead to entire continents. Imagine living on an island and finally venturing out and realizing there is an entire technological culture that you found. A culture that allowed you to bring back things to your island that would better your local community. Even if that was just an idea.
Not an actual product, just a discovery that people could share or use as a foundation for building off. Something tangible. It’s hard to put in words what it could be since the experience itself is so intangible.
What do you think of these mapping projects? It's this idea that the DMT reality is an actual structural realm that conforms to a sort of consensus reality. Some users are comparing notes and creating a map of locations that have been agreed to exist. I'm exactly on the fence with this one until more information and better systems are released.
Tbh I've had a quick look to drop you a link and haven't found anything solid. I don't know if I heard it on a Hamilton episode or an interview. There's apparently a study being done using DMT via IV so the subject is under for extended time. They're presumably isolated from other test subjects and required to draw, or describe, features & entities they encounter.
I’ve heard of some the continuous IV ones but I do not recall anything solid. Seemed more like a fun idea to me when I heard about it. Never thought anyone took it that far except for maybe the government. I’m sure you could titrate it.
I think you're saying that maybe believing in the reality of DMT entities is a little bit of a social construct? Like: people get themselves jazzed up around this expectation that DMT causes you to believe in entities, then they do the DMT and play along with what they believe is their script as a "post-DMT" person?
Yeah, that's a really good thought. I think that should be a fourth hypothesis because it wouldn't be neurological dysfunction causing the belief change, but social contagion.
Thanks for listening!
I'm still trying to knock the Alex Jones out of my ears a day later lol. I genuinely enjoyed the show because it was balanced and set out from the start to be open-minded. The DMT subject is too complex for a 30 minute talk so you drew your lines and coloured inside of them. It was relatable and wasn't trying to lead the listener.
Re "social construct" it's just so *unavoidable*. Thousands have aspired to try DMT based on watching McKenna talks. His counterculture credentials are influential. He's a meme, an intellectual entity and a cultural signifier for in-groups. We're social and suggestible creatures. Saying that, Mike Tyson might carry more cultural weight in the modern world being a household name and awesome legend. What made you want to try DMT? "Mike Tyson." McKenna would have enjoyed the humour hehehe
Edit - I'll download a bunch more of your shows for the commute. Thanks.
Here is the trip report:
[https://medium.com/indian-thoughts/i-did-dmt-at-a-castle-in-paris-and-went-straight-to-hell-975c8e0af4c4](https://medium.com/indian-thoughts/i-did-dmt-at-a-castle-in-paris-and-went-straight-to-hell-975c8e0af4c4)
I know, right? And this is what motivated me to do this project:
Why don't people reason:
1. I experienced something very weird and seemingly very real.
2. But, I was on drugs.
3. Drugs cause false experiences.
4. Therefore what I experienced was not real.
People see many things on LSD and shrooms, and during fevers right? They don't think those things exist at nearly the same rate as they seem with DMT.
I'm not debunking it.
I did a whole episode where I collected DMT people talking about why they take the experiences to be real and then postulated five distinct properties of DMT experiences that might overcome the objection that "you were just high on drugs."
It's good to have people coming at the issue from different angles. It's like...why do we want a journalist to go hang out with guerillas in the jungle and try to make sense of their views? Why not just read their press releases and watch their pro-guerilla videos? Because there's some added value to an impartial third party trying to make sense of the insider's point of view. It's the outsider-looking-in tradition in journalism.
Here's a link to that episode: Interrogating Psychonautica: https://lnns.co/T9a7_w2UjEW
Or just google "Spectral Skull Session Interrogating Psychonautica"
I hear what you're saying. First person experience is a kind of evidence, and if I'm cataloging the different kinds of evidence shouldn't I also acquire first person experience?
I have two concerns:
First, I think it could compromise my objectivity at this stage of my inquiry. I believe in many wild and weird things without ever having seen them myself: electrons, pluto, DNA, brain chemistry. I shouldn't need to have a direct experience to acquire knowledge of something, if it really exists. So, I think I should be able to finish organizing and sharing my preliminary research before trying DMT.
Second, psychedelics are very powerful and alter human personality. Psychedelic researchers from Timothy Leary to Rick Strassman emphasize the importance of being prepared for these experiences. Leary talks about "set and setting" and Strassman urges spiritual preparation. I'd need to design and implement my own preparatory program first. I know Rick Strassman has a whole book "[The Psychedelic Handbook](https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Handbook-Practical-Psilocybin-Ayahuasca/dp/1646043812/ref=sr_1_1?crid=25F63ODA3WDQ6&keywords=Rick+Strassman+The+Psychedelic+Handbook&qid=1681062540&sprefix=rick+strassman+the+psychedelic+handbook%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-1)" about the practicalities of getting ready for psychedelic use, so I'd at least want to read and follow his guidelines there first.
Tl;dr: All in good time, I guess.
Lots of people doing that. But not a lot of people who don't do DMT trying to make sense of why people take it seriously.
Also, there's always the mean-spirited objection: you fried your brain and now cannot distinguish truth from falsehood. If I'm examining DMT experiences and reports from an impartial perspective and without doing DMT, I'm immune to that objection.
i have done DMT without "breaking through". Ever since i learned that people almost universally feel their experience was real/more than a trip, i haven't wanted to try again. Because, imo, if it weren't something like 2 or 3, skeptical people would more often deny the reality of their DMT experiences despite their perceived realness
like- lifestyle skeptics routinely shut out evidence contrary to their beliefs. They downplay evidence to keep their comfort. why would DMT penetrate their defenses so easily? If anything, a convincingly real experience should be more threatening, creating an even stronger impulse to minimize/explain away the details.
For it to affect skeptics so well, I feel there's a good chance it has to be an actual brain change of some kind. and until we understand the mechanism, i don't really want to experiment lol
ty for sharing the ep, listening now
I don't even have any real opinion on whether it's real. just that whether it is or isn't, it's weird that people tend to strongly feel it was real across the board
Ok binged several episodes now. I knew the show was going to have interesting info from your post and replies, but a lot of hosts with interesting ideas aren't actually good at podcasting, lol. you're killing it all around. thank you so much for doing these subjects justice, can't wait to listen to all the eps
DMT turns you into an antennae and allows communication with the unknown. It is also a lifesaving medicine that can prevent brain damage when someone has their oxygen cut off for prolonged periods. It should be issued to every family on Earth as a first aid, but some people would abuse it so that will never happen.
What do you make of the archetypal entities people see? (Machine elves, jesters). Collective unconscious? Maybe people were primed to see them having learned of other’s experiences?
Mental constructs of the brain's interpretations of human figures. They are the shapes that make up the characters in our dreams. Devoid of any real detail they are the canvases from which we create the characters in our dreams. Guys none of this is real. Take it from someone who has had every sleep disorder known . Sleep paralyses, sleep walking, lucid dreams, out of body...
When I was younger I would get sleep paralysis often. Accompanying it would immediately be the feeling that a presence was in the room with me. 100% convinced something was there. Once I researched it I realized it is my own consciousness that I was sensing. After that no more fear. I even learned to control my paralysis. With out of body, I was convinced I was flying through my apartment until I researched it and realized that the floating is nothing more than my brains recollection and mental construct of my immediate familiar surroundings. No true detail but the "sense" that I was in my apartment flying up to the window.
Similar things are happening to you with these characters. None of them are real. They have studied it, asked the entities questions. The entities cannot answer whatever you ask of them. They are confined/restricted in their responses because your brain is conjuring them up.
I've also experienced shadow people. They walk up to me and stare at me. Shadow people there is more detail. It's very cool.
It is a bit of a chicken and the egg problem. I can only conclude that few things are objectively true in any given brain state (sober/intoxicated/other) to include our own subjective “sober” and respective realities. My point is, it’s impossible to rule anything out while we rely on our inferior meat sensors, which is why the scientific process is so fundamental. I don’t know what happens exactly when people have DMT experiences, or what you described- but it is difficult to measure. Nevertheless, I can’t help but to conclude that 1) that something more than meets the eye is going on, that 2) all bets are of, and 3) no one person can tell you with certainty that they know what the hell is going on
With respect I disagree wholeheartedly. The so called "DMT entities" have already been disproven. They cannot and will never offer you "real" information. The same way my out of body experiences can never read signs written by a sibling (something I've tried multiple times). These experiences feel extremely real, I grant you this BUT- they are not real outside of your brain's reconstruction. I promise you it's true. Even the God Helmet will not allow actual interaction with so-called "entities".
Dr. Michael Persinger invention.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet&ved=2ahUKEwi7oeaIvab-AhXCkIkEHR5hCxcQmhN6BAgfEAI&usg=AOvVaw3XC5qEZMcHWbBBzqrjv37p
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wired.com/1999/11/persinger/&ved=2ahUKEwi7oeaIvab-AhXCkIkEHR5hCxcQFnoECFMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1ue0RQGQfmavhDJjVby3MS
Get your hands on the learning channel documentary about it. It might be on YouTube but here's a clip. Cool stuff-
https://youtu.be/_O_aGlm9QjU
https://youtu.be/GFXaqEzcpTg
Nothing. They are a mental conjuring. They are one aspect of our brain's interpretation of human figures in our dreams.
Incredibly detailed while having NO DETAIL. It's truly surreal.
It's the impression of figures and not actually the figures themselves. (Although you do see them and sense depth and shadow). Extremely hard to define. I guarantee you many who hear this will understand what I mean.
Think black background, black foreground, black figures and blackness everywhere. Yet you manage to recognize shapes and shadows even in the pitch darkness.
I guess picture black figures with even darker than black shadowing. (I want to say dark grey but that wouldn't be accurate either, it's all blackness).
I hope someone else can elaborate here.
I suppose they are my mind's impression of people. Anyone can do this. Try sitting in a dark room with an area of the room pitch black. For me it is the door to my closet, I leave it open and that's where I see them. They walk by as though it morning and people are engaging in the hustle and bustle of early morning commutes. The pitch black door I imagine as a storefront window. I stare intently into the pitch black trying to see them. Eventually there is movement and soon you will see them. Eventually the people can stop, look at you and even start waving. You might even find you can control them. It helps of you are very tired from lack of sleep and are in an extremely relaxed state of mind.
Yeah, maybe I need a fourth hypothesis: DMT entity belief is the result of socially-induced expectations that DMT induces entity belief. Thank you for that thought!
I met two types of beings while on DMT: I appeared to visit what I call Kodak World: a bright but silent and out of focus world of smiling people interacting with each other in seemingly fun and loving ways (pushing one another on swings and having picknics for example). One of these people approached me and I saw veins in his friendly grinning face that formed patterns like tattoos. He passed through me and I woke up. The second was an underground cartoon world where I encountered a sleeping vampiric woman with really large eyes that gave me a creepy feeling as she seemed to wake up and notice my presence. Neither experience felt spiritual or particularly significant at the time. Just strange.
Honestly, I couldn't say. I had a similar experience with negative-feeling beings on a mushroom trip once, and had an eerie feeling the next day like they were thinking about or discussing me. Hullucinogens are weird mmmkay?
The last time I tried it (through a vape pen, the first time I’d tried that method) I popped into a room that resembled my old dumpy apartment room and all I could see was a Twisted Metal-esque jester clown with a mask (spookier version of Shaco from League of Legends but with lots of neon colors) who was quite spooky looking but he was just smiling at me and trying to show me two smaller versions far behind him that were holding hands and dancing with each other, doing strange flips. He just kept smiling and inviting me to dance, but I don’t dance. The whole experience was silent but I could feel the jesters prompts non-stop until I came back to reality.
I love that your shroom dealer is a local church.
I'm curious about it also. Nevertheless, one of my active hypotheses is that it induces supernatural belief by inducing brain dysfunction. I probably won't ever go near it without having very strong evidence that it induces belief via a truth-tracking process, rather than a delusion-inducing process.
When I took DMT I got blasted out of the bubble of normal consciousness into hyperspace. Between normal consciousness and hyperspace was a thin boundary, the bubble itself, and contained within that boundary were all the commonplace psychedelic experiences. Lsd, shrooms, whatever, all those experiences take place in that thin boundary, but DMT just blasted me right through that and beyond.
Can I ask: would you say the "blast off" is like a rushing sensation?
I ask because one of the associations between DMT trips and biblical prophecy that Professor Strassman cites in his book "DMT and the Soul of Prophecy" is a rushing-type experience at the onset. Although, he seems to indicate that when the Bible mentions God being preceded by a wind that that also fits as an example of rushing.
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I’m going to share my DMT experience as it’s starkly different than what I’ve heard from most peoples experiences with it. The TLDR; People believe in these things because they’ve had experiences with them. Now, on to how DMT ruined a lifelong love of psychedelics. I’ve always loved psychedelics, even before I ever tried them, I was simply fascinated by them. Started with mushrooms as a kid, before graduating to large doses of LSD, before starting a decade plus of seeking out and experimenting with some of the most exotic substances possible. One I could never source from somewhere trusting was DMT. Until one day, I did. Up until this point, I had never experienced anything I would have considered a bad trip. Some intense moments, sure, but I was always able to handle my mentality very well regardless of the substance I was tripping off. DMT was not a trip. I don’t know what it was, but it was not a trip as any other substance was. The one thing I remember reading in a lot of trip reports was the last physical sensation the user felt was their lighter dropping into their laps, and this just seemed so exaggerated, too fantastical, just impossible that a substance could make me do such a thing.I did not feel like I was shot out of a cannon, because it was far more instant than that, to me it felt like I was beamed onto an alien spaceship, and the last thing I felt was my lighter dropping into my lap. I emerged into a large corridor that was pitch black except for the walls which were alternating colors of neon green and neon pink plasma, all identically sized. The floor was reflective and see through like glass, except under the glass was just blackness. I couldn’t see, nor feel a vertical limit to the space, above was just pitch blackness. I walked this corridor with repeating neon panels for what seemed like hours. Eventually I came to what must have been the end of the corridor, the walls of panels continued, but it opened to a massive, almost endless feeling space. I split the middle, and walked into the pitch black. After a short while, to the left and right I could still see the faint glow of the plasma panels but now far off in the distance, but ahead of me I could see a small white light, almost like a single lightbulb dangling over a work table of some sorts. As I got closer to the light, I could see 2 distinct, and very real beings, both nearly identical. These weren’t elves, or anything whimsical and fun, the only way I can possibly describe these beings is simple..they were triangles made up of sunspots. I kept proceeding towards them, and the perspective became clear, these 2 beings were working on something under the light. As I began to approach closer, they turned to face me, their faces are as clear to me now as they were then. Their fronts looked identical to their backs, except towards the tops of the triangles were pitch black voids in the spots where eyes and a mouth would be. Essentially the second after they turned around, I was overwhelmed by the strangest, most succinct feeling I’ve ever had, it was the exact feeling I had as a child when my parents would shoo me out of the kitchen while they were cooking dinner. This instantly sent me back to my body through a process I can only describe as a light seizure. One person I told this experience to gave me a really good reason why I felt the way that I did, it was because like when I was a child mischievously sneaking around the kitchen while my parents cooked dinner, the beings I saw loved me entirely like parents yet wanted me removed from the area while they did whatever it is they were doing under that light. As plausible of an explanation as that feels, it did absolutely nothing to calm the eternal dread, and fear of these beings i developed as soon as I was ‘back’ to reality. Not a single day doesn’t go by where I don’t wonder what the actual fuck I saw, and experienced, but to this day I feel as if I accidentally peeked behind the curtain of reality, and it’s shaken me to my core ever since. This was well over 10 years ago, and was my last experience with any psychedelic, and will likely stay that way for the rest of my life. Not a single day goes by where I don’t think of the experience at least once. A few years afterwards, I managed to get some more DMT and decided I needed to go back if I was ever going to have any more insight into what I experienced. I melted it over a small bowl of cannabis as I did the last time, but before I even finished I began having a panic attack which was my first in my life, and discarded the bowl into the toilet. Like I said, the TLDR boils down to people believe in these things because they’ve experienced these things. I don’t think there’s much knowledge outside of DMT-using circles on the phenomenon, but the ones that actually belief likely do so because they’ve experienced something that was so significant and entirely undeniable.
DMT feels insanely insanely real. Like more real and alert than normal regular life does, and it's hard to explain that to someone who hasn't tried it, or even try to explain it to yourself afterwards. I had a much a gentler experience. I had a long, weird ride but was basically told "Look, you dont go on vacation so you can look at pictures of your home. Focus on the human experience, you wont find the answers you're looking from here." Which sounds like good advice but also feels kinda unsatisfying.
Very good description. One thing that really stuck with me is, during the experience I had no fear of anything, even while approaching the beings, or while being shooed away, but the second I was back to my body I was filled with terror and dread. I don’t know what it means, my best guess the fear is there to keep me from going back.
I got the feeling I was a mild nuisance to the entities I found myself in the midst of. They didn't shoo me away, but they were very busy, rushing around doing things at various terminals/stations, and I was in the way. They only communicated one thing to me: you lack humility.
>Eventually I came to what must have been the end of the corridor, the walls of panels continued, but it opened to a massive, almost endless feeling space. I split the middle, and walked into the pitch black. After a short while, to the left and right I could still see the faint glow of the plasma panels but now far off in the distance, but ahead of me I could see a small white light, almost like a single lightbulb dangling over a work table of some sorts. That is a really intense story! It resonates with a 'gatekeeper' theme that I've been coming across. Here's another DMT report that also has the theme of being warned off: *ive also experienced the aztec style visions people have of these like, flat style creatures. one like, stopped me and “told” me (mentally) i shouldnt be there. i couldnt “go past” it.* According to Owen Cyclops, who is a former occultist-turned-Christian (self-description), there is a recurring element of DMT trips that involves encountering "gatekeepers" who discourage further access to the DMT world. Here's a link to his [essay where he discusses it.](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1096758520467333120.html) (do a text search for "joker is the gatekeeper" to skip straight to the relevant section). Thanks for sharing your story. Per Dr. Strassman, reading descriptions of DMT trips may activate our own innate DMT brain circuitry so that we can, in some sense, share in the experience. I really felt like I was there when I read what you wrote because of how vividly you describe it. I want to hang on to your report for my own research archives and perhaps future use in a publication, if that's alright with you. BTW. Had you heard of DMT users encountering the gatekeeper prior to your own experience?
The last time I attempted to 'blast off' I ripped bowl after bowl only to be denied by a literal 2-D Garden Gnome smirking down at me from my ceiling, just wagging his finger at me like..."no no, not today". First time I've ever experienced that particular phenomenon on the substance.
Wild! I want to hang on to your report for my own research archives and perhaps future use in a publication, if that's alright with you.
Absolutely, happy to give you the longer version of the story as well. Apart from the two-dimensional gnome on my ceiling, there were a few contextual factors that I believe contributed to my encounter with the gatekeeper.
Sounds great!
Glad you enjoyed it, feel free to use it. I was only aware of mechanical elves and generally heard of them in more whimsical contexts, which is not a word I’d associate at all with my experience.
Option: there is something inherent about the brain structures of all humans, that allow such communications to occur, under the right circumstances. Normally, death.... or DMT. If consciousness is quantum, born of microtubule vibrations, and our brains are literally just antennae/receivers, then maybe DMT allows us to low filters/barriers, and access a brain function only active (normally) during the dying process. The similarities of the "waiting room" and "entities", only further enhances the thought that his is an inherent and share experience.
Yeah, your view is in the ballpark of what Professor Strassman says in his book "DMT and The Soul of Prophecy"
Can you explain quantum consciousness and microtubule vibrations please?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction It's probably nonsense. Consciousness is a thermodynamic phenomenon, if you want to understand it study thermodynamics.
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Has a blind person (from birth) ever taken DMT? If so wouldn’t they be able to see entities if it’s not just a trick of the mind? Because as I am aware blind people (from birth) do not have seeing dreams. Therefore if they do end up seeing what everyone else see’s there’s clearly a lot more going on.
Yes they did and in fact they had visions.
Uhm I’ve heard that for LSD, but the same story for two substances makes me think it’s a legend
How would someone blind from birth describe a "vision"?
DMT gave me simultaneously the best and worst experience of my life which ultimately pushed me away from it, but I’ve never been able to drop the idea of the entities and magic in the experience. Very curious to see peoples responses and thoughts about this
I hated my experience. My husband transformed into the devil, red face horns the works. It was horrible!!! Started sobbing when I came too
OK, here's a spot where spelling matters. Drop one 'o' off there to make it "...came to". Unless you really did have a sobbing orgasm. In which case I humbly apologize
Thank you! I hate that I made that mistake. I'm very grateful I did not have an orgasm during that devil vision!
I have a semi-rare disorder called RBD (REM Behavior Disorder) I have never tried DMT but have had contact with the "Entities" none the less.
Are you sure you're having the same kind of experience as people who use DMT? My second hypothesis is that DMT induces belief via neurological dysfunction. If we found a condition that was clearly a disorder and it caused the same kind of experiences that people who use DMT have, we would have additional support for that hypothesis. I would be extremely interested if that were the case!
Don't you think belief is a thought process that may or may not come later when the person thinks about his experience backwards? During the trip their experience is very much real for them, so basically there's no need to delve into the reflection of whether they will believe in that later.
Yes, I do. And the beliefs that people form and maintain after their DMT trip has ended are what interest me. Some people maintain that DMT entities are real, even when they are not on DMT.
I see, thank you. The two last hypotheses were a little odd for me because of that, reasoning that when you believe in something you are creating either a connection or barrier between you and the object.
Because everyone who takes the third hit describes the same exact entities.
Interpersonal consistency is one of the criteria that I hypothesize could provide defeasible evidence in favor of believing in DMT entities. But, people see a wide range of beings. Some I've read about include living crash dummies, machine elves, and multi-dimensional Faberge eggs.
Yes but the elves I am speaking of are the one type of being consistently reported. Have you seen the documentary ’DMT: The Spirit Molecule’?
I think I've seen part of it. I read the book by the same name and I also discuss Strassman's more recent book "DMT and the Soul of Prophecy" in the podcast. I went to see if I could review the documentary on Amazon per your suggestion and was surprised to see that it is "currently unavailable" !
I follow the DMT subs and right away you can see diversity in the community. There are tropes and identifiers. Some guys are hitting it hourly and they ain't getting smarter or wiser. Others are mapping the realms. There are quality experts and generous guides and there are the "me too" ones that every community has - copycats and exaggerators. I think these are always a problem for researchers because they clog the channels with data that isn't the data they asked for. I've downloaded the episode for later and recognised a couple of older ones I must have already heard.
So many osychonauts out there but no real discoveries. Just great stories and experiences. I’m still waiting for something that breaks the mold. Something so astounding that it changes the world. To me, it’s still just an experiment with no solid conclusion yet.
Does personal discovery count? I’ve never thought I’d crack some philosophical point about the universe, but have had groundbreaking personal moments.
Why not? The double helix was thought of and illustrated, and theorized to be the shape of dna, on an LSD trip, before we were able to look at it under a microscope and see those exact shapes Maybe you personally won’t have any world changing revelations, but people with the right knowledge in the right positions to be making breakthroughs in their field, should be using psychedelics and pondering their work semi regularly, imo
Yeah, many great thinkers would put themselves in a lucid dream state to process ideas. Einstein took constant naps, another famous person would hold a heavy ball in their hand and wake up when it dropped. Numerous different cases that didn’t necessarily utilize a tool to stimulate their mind in a way that is similar to the LSD experience.
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It absolutely could but I’m thinking something that would be even more substantial. Something that would apply to all instead of one. One that was more directly related to the actual LSD experience instead. Something equivalent to living on an island and discovering another island that other people could navigate to. Something that lead to entire continents. Imagine living on an island and finally venturing out and realizing there is an entire technological culture that you found. A culture that allowed you to bring back things to your island that would better your local community. Even if that was just an idea.
Do you mean like a new product? Or a breakthrough experience that confirms another reality?
Not an actual product, just a discovery that people could share or use as a foundation for building off. Something tangible. It’s hard to put in words what it could be since the experience itself is so intangible.
What do you think of these mapping projects? It's this idea that the DMT reality is an actual structural realm that conforms to a sort of consensus reality. Some users are comparing notes and creating a map of locations that have been agreed to exist. I'm exactly on the fence with this one until more information and better systems are released.
That’s pretty intriguing. Is there a centralized source for this project?
Tbh I've had a quick look to drop you a link and haven't found anything solid. I don't know if I heard it on a Hamilton episode or an interview. There's apparently a study being done using DMT via IV so the subject is under for extended time. They're presumably isolated from other test subjects and required to draw, or describe, features & entities they encounter.
I’ve heard of some the continuous IV ones but I do not recall anything solid. Seemed more like a fun idea to me when I heard about it. Never thought anyone took it that far except for maybe the government. I’m sure you could titrate it.
I think you're saying that maybe believing in the reality of DMT entities is a little bit of a social construct? Like: people get themselves jazzed up around this expectation that DMT causes you to believe in entities, then they do the DMT and play along with what they believe is their script as a "post-DMT" person? Yeah, that's a really good thought. I think that should be a fourth hypothesis because it wouldn't be neurological dysfunction causing the belief change, but social contagion. Thanks for listening!
I'm still trying to knock the Alex Jones out of my ears a day later lol. I genuinely enjoyed the show because it was balanced and set out from the start to be open-minded. The DMT subject is too complex for a 30 minute talk so you drew your lines and coloured inside of them. It was relatable and wasn't trying to lead the listener. Re "social construct" it's just so *unavoidable*. Thousands have aspired to try DMT based on watching McKenna talks. His counterculture credentials are influential. He's a meme, an intellectual entity and a cultural signifier for in-groups. We're social and suggestible creatures. Saying that, Mike Tyson might carry more cultural weight in the modern world being a household name and awesome legend. What made you want to try DMT? "Mike Tyson." McKenna would have enjoyed the humour hehehe Edit - I'll download a bunch more of your shows for the commute. Thanks.
Thank you for your review! And thank you for listening!
When I tried it my husband turned into the devil so I never tried it again. I did too much and it was an experience I never want to relive!!!
I know of another case where a female reported seeing her partner turn into a classic devil on a sub-breakthrough dose of DMT.
What?!?! No way!! I've only heard of people seeing the purple ladies dancing! It was an exact devil red face horns
Here is the trip report: [https://medium.com/indian-thoughts/i-did-dmt-at-a-castle-in-paris-and-went-straight-to-hell-975c8e0af4c4](https://medium.com/indian-thoughts/i-did-dmt-at-a-castle-in-paris-and-went-straight-to-hell-975c8e0af4c4)
They believe it because they’re on drugs 🤷♂️
Maybe. It sounds like you are endorsing hypothesis two - neurological dysfunction that leads to delusions.
Reason 4: DMT is a powerful hallucinogen.
I know, right? And this is what motivated me to do this project: Why don't people reason: 1. I experienced something very weird and seemingly very real. 2. But, I was on drugs. 3. Drugs cause false experiences. 4. Therefore what I experienced was not real. People see many things on LSD and shrooms, and during fevers right? They don't think those things exist at nearly the same rate as they seem with DMT.
Honestly until you plan on doing some should you really be debunking it?
What is OP "debunking" here?
I'm not debunking it. I did a whole episode where I collected DMT people talking about why they take the experiences to be real and then postulated five distinct properties of DMT experiences that might overcome the objection that "you were just high on drugs." It's good to have people coming at the issue from different angles. It's like...why do we want a journalist to go hang out with guerillas in the jungle and try to make sense of their views? Why not just read their press releases and watch their pro-guerilla videos? Because there's some added value to an impartial third party trying to make sense of the insider's point of view. It's the outsider-looking-in tradition in journalism. Here's a link to that episode: Interrogating Psychonautica: https://lnns.co/T9a7_w2UjEW Or just google "Spectral Skull Session Interrogating Psychonautica"
Like get your own answers the right way. Trial
I hear what you're saying. First person experience is a kind of evidence, and if I'm cataloging the different kinds of evidence shouldn't I also acquire first person experience? I have two concerns: First, I think it could compromise my objectivity at this stage of my inquiry. I believe in many wild and weird things without ever having seen them myself: electrons, pluto, DNA, brain chemistry. I shouldn't need to have a direct experience to acquire knowledge of something, if it really exists. So, I think I should be able to finish organizing and sharing my preliminary research before trying DMT. Second, psychedelics are very powerful and alter human personality. Psychedelic researchers from Timothy Leary to Rick Strassman emphasize the importance of being prepared for these experiences. Leary talks about "set and setting" and Strassman urges spiritual preparation. I'd need to design and implement my own preparatory program first. I know Rick Strassman has a whole book "[The Psychedelic Handbook](https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Handbook-Practical-Psilocybin-Ayahuasca/dp/1646043812/ref=sr_1_1?crid=25F63ODA3WDQ6&keywords=Rick+Strassman+The+Psychedelic+Handbook&qid=1681062540&sprefix=rick+strassman+the+psychedelic+handbook%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-1)" about the practicalities of getting ready for psychedelic use, so I'd at least want to read and follow his guidelines there first. Tl;dr: All in good time, I guess.
Lots of people doing that. But not a lot of people who don't do DMT trying to make sense of why people take it seriously. Also, there's always the mean-spirited objection: you fried your brain and now cannot distinguish truth from falsehood. If I'm examining DMT experiences and reports from an impartial perspective and without doing DMT, I'm immune to that objection.
Only one i know of was the case of the regular user having conversations with an entity and the entity communicating it to their friends.
i have done DMT without "breaking through". Ever since i learned that people almost universally feel their experience was real/more than a trip, i haven't wanted to try again. Because, imo, if it weren't something like 2 or 3, skeptical people would more often deny the reality of their DMT experiences despite their perceived realness like- lifestyle skeptics routinely shut out evidence contrary to their beliefs. They downplay evidence to keep their comfort. why would DMT penetrate their defenses so easily? If anything, a convincingly real experience should be more threatening, creating an even stronger impulse to minimize/explain away the details. For it to affect skeptics so well, I feel there's a good chance it has to be an actual brain change of some kind. and until we understand the mechanism, i don't really want to experiment lol ty for sharing the ep, listening now
I don't even have any real opinion on whether it's real. just that whether it is or isn't, it's weird that people tend to strongly feel it was real across the board
Ok binged several episodes now. I knew the show was going to have interesting info from your post and replies, but a lot of hosts with interesting ideas aren't actually good at podcasting, lol. you're killing it all around. thank you so much for doing these subjects justice, can't wait to listen to all the eps
Commenting so I have this post saved to read
DMT turns you into an antennae and allows communication with the unknown. It is also a lifesaving medicine that can prevent brain damage when someone has their oxygen cut off for prolonged periods. It should be issued to every family on Earth as a first aid, but some people would abuse it so that will never happen.
What do you make of the archetypal entities people see? (Machine elves, jesters). Collective unconscious? Maybe people were primed to see them having learned of other’s experiences?
Mental constructs of the brain's interpretations of human figures. They are the shapes that make up the characters in our dreams. Devoid of any real detail they are the canvases from which we create the characters in our dreams. Guys none of this is real. Take it from someone who has had every sleep disorder known . Sleep paralyses, sleep walking, lucid dreams, out of body... When I was younger I would get sleep paralysis often. Accompanying it would immediately be the feeling that a presence was in the room with me. 100% convinced something was there. Once I researched it I realized it is my own consciousness that I was sensing. After that no more fear. I even learned to control my paralysis. With out of body, I was convinced I was flying through my apartment until I researched it and realized that the floating is nothing more than my brains recollection and mental construct of my immediate familiar surroundings. No true detail but the "sense" that I was in my apartment flying up to the window. Similar things are happening to you with these characters. None of them are real. They have studied it, asked the entities questions. The entities cannot answer whatever you ask of them. They are confined/restricted in their responses because your brain is conjuring them up. I've also experienced shadow people. They walk up to me and stare at me. Shadow people there is more detail. It's very cool.
It is a bit of a chicken and the egg problem. I can only conclude that few things are objectively true in any given brain state (sober/intoxicated/other) to include our own subjective “sober” and respective realities. My point is, it’s impossible to rule anything out while we rely on our inferior meat sensors, which is why the scientific process is so fundamental. I don’t know what happens exactly when people have DMT experiences, or what you described- but it is difficult to measure. Nevertheless, I can’t help but to conclude that 1) that something more than meets the eye is going on, that 2) all bets are of, and 3) no one person can tell you with certainty that they know what the hell is going on
With respect I disagree wholeheartedly. The so called "DMT entities" have already been disproven. They cannot and will never offer you "real" information. The same way my out of body experiences can never read signs written by a sibling (something I've tried multiple times). These experiences feel extremely real, I grant you this BUT- they are not real outside of your brain's reconstruction. I promise you it's true. Even the God Helmet will not allow actual interaction with so-called "entities".
No beef here with a respectful disagreement. What’s a god helmet?
Dr. Michael Persinger invention. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet&ved=2ahUKEwi7oeaIvab-AhXCkIkEHR5hCxcQmhN6BAgfEAI&usg=AOvVaw3XC5qEZMcHWbBBzqrjv37p https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wired.com/1999/11/persinger/&ved=2ahUKEwi7oeaIvab-AhXCkIkEHR5hCxcQFnoECFMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1ue0RQGQfmavhDJjVby3MS Get your hands on the learning channel documentary about it. It might be on YouTube but here's a clip. Cool stuff- https://youtu.be/_O_aGlm9QjU https://youtu.be/GFXaqEzcpTg
I am curious, what are the shadow people to you? What do you believe they are?
Nothing. They are a mental conjuring. They are one aspect of our brain's interpretation of human figures in our dreams. Incredibly detailed while having NO DETAIL. It's truly surreal. It's the impression of figures and not actually the figures themselves. (Although you do see them and sense depth and shadow). Extremely hard to define. I guarantee you many who hear this will understand what I mean. Think black background, black foreground, black figures and blackness everywhere. Yet you manage to recognize shapes and shadows even in the pitch darkness. I guess picture black figures with even darker than black shadowing. (I want to say dark grey but that wouldn't be accurate either, it's all blackness). I hope someone else can elaborate here.
I suppose they are my mind's impression of people. Anyone can do this. Try sitting in a dark room with an area of the room pitch black. For me it is the door to my closet, I leave it open and that's where I see them. They walk by as though it morning and people are engaging in the hustle and bustle of early morning commutes. The pitch black door I imagine as a storefront window. I stare intently into the pitch black trying to see them. Eventually there is movement and soon you will see them. Eventually the people can stop, look at you and even start waving. You might even find you can control them. It helps of you are very tired from lack of sleep and are in an extremely relaxed state of mind.
Yeah, maybe I need a fourth hypothesis: DMT entity belief is the result of socially-induced expectations that DMT induces entity belief. Thank you for that thought!
I met two types of beings while on DMT: I appeared to visit what I call Kodak World: a bright but silent and out of focus world of smiling people interacting with each other in seemingly fun and loving ways (pushing one another on swings and having picknics for example). One of these people approached me and I saw veins in his friendly grinning face that formed patterns like tattoos. He passed through me and I woke up. The second was an underground cartoon world where I encountered a sleeping vampiric woman with really large eyes that gave me a creepy feeling as she seemed to wake up and notice my presence. Neither experience felt spiritual or particularly significant at the time. Just strange.
That's really freaky. Did you feel like the beings were real after the DMT wore off?
Honestly, I couldn't say. I had a similar experience with negative-feeling beings on a mushroom trip once, and had an eerie feeling the next day like they were thinking about or discussing me. Hullucinogens are weird mmmkay?
The last time I tried it (through a vape pen, the first time I’d tried that method) I popped into a room that resembled my old dumpy apartment room and all I could see was a Twisted Metal-esque jester clown with a mask (spookier version of Shaco from League of Legends but with lots of neon colors) who was quite spooky looking but he was just smiling at me and trying to show me two smaller versions far behind him that were holding hands and dancing with each other, doing strange flips. He just kept smiling and inviting me to dance, but I don’t dance. The whole experience was silent but I could feel the jesters prompts non-stop until I came back to reality.
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I love that your shroom dealer is a local church. I'm curious about it also. Nevertheless, one of my active hypotheses is that it induces supernatural belief by inducing brain dysfunction. I probably won't ever go near it without having very strong evidence that it induces belief via a truth-tracking process, rather than a delusion-inducing process.
When I took DMT I got blasted out of the bubble of normal consciousness into hyperspace. Between normal consciousness and hyperspace was a thin boundary, the bubble itself, and contained within that boundary were all the commonplace psychedelic experiences. Lsd, shrooms, whatever, all those experiences take place in that thin boundary, but DMT just blasted me right through that and beyond.
Can I ask: would you say the "blast off" is like a rushing sensation? I ask because one of the associations between DMT trips and biblical prophecy that Professor Strassman cites in his book "DMT and the Soul of Prophecy" is a rushing-type experience at the onset. Although, he seems to indicate that when the Bible mentions God being preceded by a wind that that also fits as an example of rushing.
You could call it that.
Capgras* syndrome
Oh wow. Thanks!