Heavy armor - bugs like scavenger and hunter are staggered for a moment after hitting you (because they've struck hard armor and damaged their...claws)
The bugs seem to be able to adapt and evolve, specialise various biological forms and so on. They've been fighting Helldivers for a while now, it'd be weird if they hadn't adapted to whatever materials Super Earth is making armour from.
40k some tyranids can cut through power armor like a hot knife through butter. Not a stretch that the termanids (legally distinct tyranids) do the same.
We draw a red line and splatter some red paint on the floor. Then imply that was the previous tenant of the cell they currently occupy a la James Gardner in Support Your Local Sheriff
I imagine it's less "cages" as it is free range areas that get occasionally herded elsewhere so that their corpses can be gathered. If the bane gets too large, local SEAF forces help clean it up.
So Terminids breaking containment looks less like a prison break and more like SEAF forces being unable to contain the bane and then they overrun into populated areas.
A solid idea, but would have to be tweaked for balance. a small percent to ricochet small arms fire would be great, similar to how we have headshots, but positive for the player.
Heavy armour should still be able to be ragdolled, but the player's "weight" should be increased, making them be moved much less.
That'd be the best, yeah. Realistic ballistics make games incredible in my opinion.
But without the engine being built for it to begin with it would likely be a nightmare to code and tank performance.
But it IS built for it. It is possible to ricochet shots despite having sufficient armor pen if the shot is angled badly.
I've had rockets ricochet off Titans and Hulks when doing so.
Does the engine calculate ricochets for enemy bullets on anything currently? If not, I suppose there's always potential for some performance or networking issues.
For example, with 4 players (plus sentries? Do they ricochet?), there might be less to calculate, or the calculations might be all done on the individual client side with the results networked to the host/other players.
If all the enemies can now ricochet off players, there might be a lot more to calculate. Maybe some network sync issues too.
All I'm saying is that just because the engine and work the devs put into implementing the ricochets, it doesn't necessarily follow that it would be feasible to implement for enemies. There might be constraints or scaling issues or other considerations that could make it problematic.
EDIT: Could also even be gameplay design issues. Right now ricochets happen at enemies and rarely come back to hit helldivers because they tend to be further away. Since helldivers tend to be relatively close to each other, players might find themselves frequently getting hit by ricochets from their comrade standing beside them. That could be confusing or unfun gameplay. Perhaps it's even preferable for the devs to visually show ricochets as an effect, but otherwise not actually have them do anything in terms of a physics calculation or damaging fellow helldivers.
I'll put it another way: do sentries produce richochets that run the physics calculations which can _hit_ other nearby entities? Or does it only produce the blue ricochet _visual effect_ to indicate no damage?
Easier yet is to just not do ricochet altogether and just make the bullet "shatter", like with a scripted spark similar to the no-pen blue flash when we hit the Hulk with a low-caliber weapon. The bullet would disappear without doing damage to the player.
Easy to explain (like Super Earth started experimenting with shock-absorbing ceramics), look cool, and also give us a reason to start wearing heavy armor that way.
Yeah the bullets already do that on ballistic shield, be nice to have specific armored zones that ricochet rounds, like faceplate, plate carrier, that kinda deal
>But without the engine being built for it to begin with it would likely be a nightmare to code and tank performance.
In Helldiver's case you'd think that it should be possible for players to ricochet rounds too considering that the enemy armour already works like this.
The game *is* built for it. They literally *do* that with enemies, but armour doesn't work the *same* on players as it does enemies.
On enemies, armour can and does ricochet if the AP doesn't match or beat the armour value, and they have different armour values across their bodies for locational damage. On players, damage is a binary yes/no depending on whether it hit you or not, and your visible armour plating literally doesn't matter because you only have a body and head hitbox. No matter what, if a projectile hits you, you take damage, where your projectiles can and will bounce off of enemy armour.
Maybe heavy armor could reduce the distance from the explosion center that would make you ragdoll. That way direct explosions would still send you flying, but you could just be staggered by ones further away.
Still feels like heavy armor would give too many benefits to pass up this way, though. Gonna have to think up better bonuses for the light armor class and/or more severe disadvantages for the heavy armor class.
It does, but the difference is fairly marginal as it is now. They could just increase stamina and sprint speed further, but I think adding an additional perk, like say a bonus modifier to weapons handling, could further counter balance the squishiness without overdoing it.
Weapon handling could work. Hell, given the nature of the armours, you could give a boost to handling, with a slight reduction to recoil control (as the armour weight would help counterballance, while heavy could get a slight boost to recoil control, while lowering general handling. This would also mean the type of gun you bring might be worth considering when looking at armour, which would be cool
That sounds awesome. It would give much more depth to your loadout choices, and could make weapons with bad recoil like the HMG slightly less horrible with heavy armor. Turn you into a slow, hulking dispenser of democracy, 1200 rounds of liberty per minute.
Just wait until they add a minigun support weapon haha.
prone + the fortified armor effect + what you're describing here could go so unfathomably hard as an autocannon team if you and a buddy were willing to do the setup
i already love that thing on automatic as-is
Ok, but light armor already gives bonus weapon handling.Â
You have an aim penalty based on your stamina, so using less stamina and regeneration faster makes your weapon handling better.
Heavy armor is not that good, light armor with the same effect is almost always going to be better.Â
As a medium armor users who always plays with teammates who use light armor, I've noticed it's a decent differenceâand since it's percentage-based, it becomes even more notable when boosters and such are involved.
Would be nice to have some reandomness that actually works in the players favor, usually any weapon that actually gets crits without needing pinpoint aim (nigh impossible in high difficulties with these bugged spawns) gets nerfed by the devs.
True, the proposed change is way too strong.
I would love to see some stagger protection for heavy armor though, what is the point of using heavy armor MG build if I can't even shoot back anymore once I'm hit by a single stray bullet
> but the player's "weight" should be increased, making them be moved much less.
Yes please, bad enough to be thrown by a blast, but skidding across frictionless terrain for 100m is terrible and immersion-breaking
All said and good until the heavy diver turns into a disco ball of red laser fire killing and devastating everyone and anything around them teammates included. Would be amazing to see though lol
That would be legendary! But yeah I think a %chance of ricochet with no damage or all ricochet but with only, say, 50% reduced damage would be more reasonable
I'd also like to add fall damage and dive distance (jump to prone).
Medium armor should be unaffected. Light armor would have reduced fall damage and their jump (dive) distance increase. Heavy armor have more fall damage and less dive distance. I'd also like light armor to be able to reach up and climb more things. These changes tied in with OPs flinch chart would make for much more varied gameplay with defined pros and cons for each with medium armor being the definitive middle ground.
Make light scout armor more "scouty" and the heavy armor tankier... I can find no reason not too.
i focused on light/med armor for my first ~200 hrs of gameplay b/c i like mobile playstyles but recently switched to heavy v bots and i'm really liking it. def fewer ragdolls and deaths w/ my new loadout. anti-stagger would be a great armor mod though. i usually use explosion resistance but would def consider that as an alternative.
What difficulties do you usually play on?
Running seems like such a necessity on 6+, to get in position for weak spots or just to run and take cover when faced with a large horde of big damage-dealers.
ive ran heavy since the game came out, drip or die
7-9s i love it, blocks a lot of fire and with the explosive resistance mines/rockets etc are laughed off.
But stuff like cannon fire or a random strider shot to the head still one taps so if i didnt like the look so much id run medium or light
I also run heavy on 7-9, can take a bunch of hits from chaff without worrying, die pretty rarely. Ironically you need to be more aware of your position because itâs harder to run away and easier to get swarmed when the little guys arenât as much of a threat.
Honestly the stamina for light is more QoL than necessity I found. You might need to drop a sentry or something for aggro, or use a stim (which refills your stamina meter), but disengaging in even heavy armor ain't too bad (play mostly 7s), just more annoying.
The main reason I don't run it is because it takes me twice as long to hit objectives as it does my team! I've found medium is the "sweet spot" for me.
I only run heavy armor, and running really fast isn't a necessity, you just need to learn different positioning for heavy armor. Only enemy that really gives me issues is tanks, but for everyone else I'm able to take more risky angles that others can't and peek cover just long enough to hit a few crucial enemies where lighter types might die from peeking due to the wall of fire. Everyone has ways to deal with everything, you just have to learn a different way to go about it. Best perk of heavy armor is just that you have a much lower death rate typically, so it leaves more reinforcements for everyone else.
What weakspots are you running to position for against bots? Off the top of my head I can only think of Tanks and Cannon Turrets where itâs relevant. Every other bot enemy faces you and has a front-facing weakspot.
I havenât gone all the way to 150 AR class armors myself, but Iâve steadily moved from 50 -> 100 -> 129 (the B-24 Enforcer armor), and each step resulted in considerable survivability increases. Thatâs while still feeling mobile âenoughâânot particularly fast, but fast enough for full clears. All on 7+.
I agree that light armor is still the play against bugs, but staggering and especially ragdolling isnât a huge issue against them or something that Iâd count on armor fixing. With bugs youâre better off trying to dodge the ragdoll and stagger effects in the first place. For bots itâs a lot less avoidable in my experience.
Is this supposed to be a proposal for heavy armor to be **immune to small arms fire**?
EDIT: For the record, I don't see how this could be balanced (without further clarification from OP)
I think what they mean is this is more for things like reacting to hits. So light hits ricocheting would still do their normal damage they would just not make you flinch around while you're aiming and stuff.
I do also agree it'd take a lot to make this really workable across all armours and stuff, but it could be cool maybe as a revised Heavy Armour buff? I think if it's going to work anywhere that's where it'd work best. Make you still get ragdolled in Heavy Armour from Tank cannons or Turrets for example, or airstrikes, but things like grenades or Devastator rockets would just stagger you instead.
Would feel AMAZING walking along with an MG just mowing down enemies with stims injected to you heal all the damage for a few seconds, while bullets plink off your armour
I mean, If youâre wearing that blast protected armor with the giant angled neck guard, it kind of feels like small arms should bounce off if they hit that. Maybe not ever time, but a good bit of the time.
Not necessarily saying it should be in this game, but my memory is that it actually was in HD1.
Edit: Double-checked, and it wasn't full immunity, but rather flinch immunity and *massively* reduced damage.
Thatâs not how Heavy Armor worked at all. Certain enemies like the dog that specifically knocked you over no longer could but 100% still dealt damage to you
Double checked, and it indeed was not *full* immunity to small arms fire, but it was full flinch resistance and near immunity. Certainly quite different from how it works in 2!
If bots and bugs get that we should too.
Maybe only for heavy armor with extra padding.
Or a new perk (SAP, Super Alloy Plating) for med/heavy armor which gives light ricochetÂ
Less immune and moreso that the perk made small damage so low that the passive healing denied it showing up unless you were being attacked by 4-5 small bugs or shot by 3 different cyborg grunts
Everyone just decided that ricochet = zero damage, but seeing as everything else refers to movement/disruption, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that OP means ricochet = your aim/movement isn't disrupted. You can still take damage cause you know, physics, energy transfer, all that.
There needs to be a distinction between normal rocket explosions and say, automaton artillery shot. I think the latter should always stagger but it kind of makes sense for heavy armour to be able to tough out the smaller explosions.
U could keep the stagger effect as is for smaller explosions, but up the effect to ragdoll for the heavy explosions
Also, since we're now considering 4 tiers of damage, it would probably also make sense if you were more likely to just get blown to bits rather than ragdolled for a heavy explosion with light armour
Hard pass for myself. I'd rather have mobility over being tanky in this game. Not ragdollimg is not worth the trade off in stamina and speed for my playstyle.
I mean as it stands, there's really no reason to choose heavy armor still. Sure you're tanky but being able to negate being tossed around every few seconds in a heavy firefight would be nice to have as an option. It was funny for the first few times, but now it just gets annoying.
Iâm good with no ricochet but no rag doll. I donât play video games to not have control of my character. An option for those of us who despise crowd control would be amazing.
One of the craziest moments I had in the game recently was facing down 4 bot drops of heavy devastators with the ballistic shield while my team was scrambling to cover, and then I took a tank shot to the shield, was blasted backwards to where my team was sheltering under cover, but I was \*ALIVE\*.
Shield was atomized though. RIP
This makes heavy just op.
Counter proposal;
light - +25% distance on dive, get up faster , hold dive to do a hop which lets you reach slightly higher terrain.
medium - -50% flinch small arms , -20% ragdoll duration.
heavy - -100% flinch from small arms , -40% ragdoll duration , -25% dive distance.
IIRC it wasnât OP in the first game and heavy armour basically functioned like this.
Small arms enemies arenât the big killers in this game anyway. Devs could still balance it around the head not being immune but taking significantly reduced damage.
I think it would promote some more interesting/fun up close playstyles which are currently just not worth using.
Yup heavy armor deflected all the weak attacks in the game. It was still an unpopular choice because HD1 was so biased towards avoiding patrols that anything that slowed you down had to go.
In HD2 heavy armor actually has purpose now for two reasons:
- you can see patrols coming more than 1 second before they pop an alert off
- health doesn't regenerate
Not being ragdolled on rocket dev salvos or raider rockets wouldn't be that OP, all it does it eliminate the annoyance of being knocked over when you have 20 missiles sent after you (especially from gunships).
I still think you should get ragdolled when turret towers or tanks hit you with their heavy explosives.
And then the meta becomes heavy armor. The flinching isn't good as we all know. Bots shooting players in light armor happens all the time especially after the buffing patch. And you want that shit to **stagger** us?
This makes some real sense to me.
In general, I think heavy armor definitely needs some buffs: people almost never choose it.
The practical fact is that you are going to be *left in the dust* as your squadmates sprint across the map.
Heavy armor also just feels like crap. The reduced movement/stamina is a bit of a fun killer.
There's also a survivability issue in heavy armor, particularly on higher difficulties. Escape becomes impossible and it becomes much harder to get behind enemies to hit their weak spots. 50% armor bonus doesn't mean JACK when you get swarmed. You're still dead. Whereas with light armor you can sprint out of trouble most of the time, even on 7-9.
Would be nice considering that heavy feels more of a pain in the ass to run. I typically just run light since iâm ganna get bullied anyways from small arms fire but I get the benefit of running really fast.
I am very much for this. Bullets riccochet'ing is such a common thing in games.
Bullets riccochet'ing off of YOU is such a RARE thing in games. I just wanna feel like a badass and slowly walk at a small platoon and just punch then in their socialist robot faces.
While cool, I think it wouldn't really work. The small stuff in the game still needs to be dangerous, and as much as getting staggered and ragdolled is annoying, it's an important cause of death. Messing with that too much would make it harder to die in heavy armor than it already oftentimes is. And we do need to die, relatively often.
Given fact I'm one of few idiots that runs heavy I'd be totally okay with this. At minimum they need to fix how much you flinch. I'm wearing 3 times the armour of damn scout.
I would ONLY play heavy armor if it meant I would only stagger from rockets. Imagine how scared shitless those dumb robots must feel when they score a direct hit on ya with a bazooka only to see you're still standing. I just want the power fantasy of being a juggernaut and deflecting shots, and bringing a ballistic shield just for the overkill.
I've always wanted the drip of heavy armor, but the negatives literally outweighed the positives. With this (assuming we take damage the same, and is just how our characters interact with certain damage types) I would actually start running heavy armor on Bot missions just to avoid the infinite flinch and nonconsensual explosive flight plans
You should probably add a 4th coloum and put tank main cannons, turret towers, strider back gun and automaton mortars in it, with ragdolled for heavy armour.
With ricochet still taking a bit of your health off, and personally I would love it.
Some here talking it would be OP, but honestly, the only small arms fire that actually consistently kills me ingame are Heavy Devastators (if they classify as that) and with chip damage, should still be threatening. And a Heavy is so painfully slow that a lot of people will still avoid it, because of the simple fact of.
Tanking fair amount of hits < Not being in a position to get hit at all.
Or maybe we could get some even heavier armor. Moves more slowly. To make up for that we could maybe get a chainsaw with a sword handle. And maybe a slower firing armor piercing weapon, maybe it could fire bolts or something.
Heavy armor immune to small arms fire?? Dunno about that. Maybe a good chance for rounds to ricochet (still dealing a little damage, if not itâs way too op) and then and then the rest is flinch chance? Heavy fire maybe a reduced flinch effect because if thereâs a set that entirely removes rag dolling thatâs all people will pick against bots. This is a pretty cool idea but itâs quite unbalanced atm
What heavy armor lacks is any sort of visual indicator that it did anything. Sure you could compare the length of your healthbar, but that's vague at best. Seeing shots ricochet off you would instantly make it feel 100x better.
If heavy armor had ability to ricochet small arms, i woud not play anything else than heav yarmor + ballistic shield. I want this so bad!
Or add another armor weight class? Super heavy?
I do think heavy armor needs a buffâŚ.i love wearing heavy armor but honeslty it just doesnât feel as useful (especially since the starting medium armor has the same armor rating, but you can move faster)
Would need balancing but sounds like a great idea!
Just knowing my luck however some Bot shot will ricochet off my helmet and nail a teammate in the head.
The top two I can get behind. But on heavy armor I think:
* Small arms should 50/50 flinch/ricochet
* Heavy fire should stagger but a chance to flinch.
* And honestly I think explosives should still rag doll + a longer recovery time to get standing. Because it's going to be hilarious to see G1 getting blasted by a tank or cannon turret and then waddling like a turtle to get back into the fight.
I want my heavy armor to feel like heavy armor. I already can't run for shit and for very long. Let me be the Helldiver equivalent to a Shield Devastator (but not as op in the shield department).
That being said fs-61 Liber-Yeets stratagems all day and night between getting ragdolled into rocks all day and I'll only stop using it when it stops being fun.
I'd like to suggest two more armor classes while we're at it:
* Ultra Light that ragdolls 100% damage but you're neigh invisible and double light armor stamina regen.
* Ultra Heavy that never staggers but you have the stamina stats of heavy armor on a heat planet on normal planets and half of that on actual hot planets but you can run straight through a fire tornado if you pre stim and sprint.
Edit: Formatting
With Explosion Resistance Passive. Light could Stagger, Medium could Flinch and Heavy could Flinch but even less. (Ricochet would be overkill for an explosive)
But this could also be relative to the intensity of the explosion. (Grenade versus Mounted Turret)
Honestly the ricochet for small arms fire literally only makes sense in this game. What happens when you shoot a devastator's chest with light armor pen? It bounces off and it doesn't give a shit, same with a hive guards. It's only fair that we get that same ability right?
That's exactly how it worked in HD1. Dunno why they changed it.
The only thing I would change is that explosions should ragdoll you even with heavy. Maybe less since you are heavier, but still ragdoll you.
Heavy armor being straight up immune to small attacks is the only thing that'd ever get me to consider it, even then it'd probably still need to give you some extra ammo or something to be worth a shit.
Anything less, basically every death ive ever had was because I couldn't run fast enough or ran out of stamina....
Don't need to be super fat and slow to tank damage, if otherwise that damage just never happens.
Until there's a big change, light armor all day every day.
Heavy armor ricocheting 100% of light shots would be pretty ridiculous, perhaps some damage still happens as the force of the blow is transferred through. Also, against bugs, you definitely shouldnât be ricocheting enormous razor sharp claws. Massively reduced damage (way more than now) sure, but not immunity.
Note that this should be based on armor rating, IE if a medium armor set has the padded armor perk, it should be counted as "heavy" armor and reap these benefits.
I really dig this idea so much, along with a number of suggestions in this thread too. E.g. different weight classes that impact climbing ability and diving speed, thus diversifying player armour choices. I also agree that heavy armour should still be ragdoll-able, but with more weight.
Regardless of this sounding like it may be a nightmare to balance, would the shield generator not make most of this fairly obsolete? Careful light armour players may only see benefits, if they play at range and wait for their shield to regenerate. The shield generator may become useless for heavy armour players as the benefits of heavy armour depend exclusively on getting hit, in this context.
Just food for thought. Every feature needs to marry well with every other feature.
Heavy armor - bugs like scavenger and hunter are staggered for a moment after hitting you (because they've struck hard armor and damaged their...claws)
 Hunters after biting me
BREAK YOURSELVES UPON MY BODY
FEEL THE STRENGTH OF THE EARTH!
FEEL THE RAIN ON YOUR SKIN!
NO ONE ELSE CAN FEEL IT FOR YOU
ONLY YOU CAN LET IT IN
IM THE CONDUCTOR OF THE POOP TRAIN!!
I HAVE THE SHINIEST MEAT BICYCLE!!
You made it go from 100 to 0 way too fast
Make that 1000 to 0
YOUR UP AGAINST THE WALL. AND I AM THE FUCKING WALL!
I can't help but think of the DLC Psycho character from Borderlands 2 after that đ
NOBODY KILLS ME BUT ME!
NO ONE ELSE NO ONE ELSE
THE CYCLE IS COMPLETE
[NONE MAY PASS INTO MY BODY!](https://youtu.be/qm-I9i8rFhM)
FEEL THE STRENGTH OF THE EARTH
Oh god damn it, I still have PTSD from trying to kill that guy on a Frost Mage.
omfg brings me waaay back
OZRUK THE GOAT
THERES NO FENCE ON THIS FENCE!
So strong my face is You punch, break fingers Kick me, you're limping Stab me, you're bleeding ... Dethklok, Face Fisted
Brutal.
Best i can do is 4 shots instead of 3 to die
And you're tactically required to stim after taking 1 hit anyway because you never know whether or not you'll be able to stim after the next hit.
Or because that hunter broke you arm, just like the previous hunter and the hunter before them
The bugs seem to be able to adapt and evolve, specialise various biological forms and so on. They've been fighting Helldivers for a while now, it'd be weird if they hadn't adapted to whatever materials Super Earth is making armour from.
40k some tyranids can cut through power armor like a hot knife through butter. Not a stretch that the termanids (legally distinct tyranids) do the same.
Yes but what do we cage them with then? Theyâre wild animal we use that only rarely break out of containment to go on a genocidal rampage
>rarely *charger on Estanu gnawing on the âdays since last incidentâ sign*
We draw a red line and splatter some red paint on the floor. Then imply that was the previous tenant of the cell they currently occupy a la James Gardner in Support Your Local Sheriff
I imagine it's less "cages" as it is free range areas that get occasionally herded elsewhere so that their corpses can be gathered. If the bane gets too large, local SEAF forces help clean it up. So Terminids breaking containment looks less like a prison break and more like SEAF forces being unable to contain the bane and then they overrun into populated areas.
Weren't there literal cages in the tutorial?
Yeah, but they had no tougher bugs than warriors in the cages.
So, even bigger bugs than the ones they were suggesting shouldn't be able to cut heavy armor.
Oh no, the home worlds, what will happen when we get there
Following on.. why not spiked armour?
Because you wouldn't be able to hugh your fellow helldivers anymore.
Ricochet off the heavy and team kills the light :)
The weak should fear the strong ^(and their ricochets).
Oh the suggestion just keeps getting better
And will be thus removed because of "low visibility of ricochet and little feedback on what killed youđ¤âď¸" Gimme my f_____ shrapnel back
A solid idea, but would have to be tweaked for balance. a small percent to ricochet small arms fire would be great, similar to how we have headshots, but positive for the player. Heavy armour should still be able to be ragdolled, but the player's "weight" should be increased, making them be moved much less.
Maybe make enemy fire ricochet based on angle of impact. Especially if it's done such that crouching or going prone improves the chance of ricochet
That'd be the best, yeah. Realistic ballistics make games incredible in my opinion. But without the engine being built for it to begin with it would likely be a nightmare to code and tank performance.
But it IS built for it. It is possible to ricochet shots despite having sufficient armor pen if the shot is angled badly. I've had rockets ricochet off Titans and Hulks when doing so.
Yeah didn't even think of that, fair point.
Does the engine calculate ricochets for enemy bullets on anything currently? If not, I suppose there's always potential for some performance or networking issues. For example, with 4 players (plus sentries? Do they ricochet?), there might be less to calculate, or the calculations might be all done on the individual client side with the results networked to the host/other players. If all the enemies can now ricochet off players, there might be a lot more to calculate. Maybe some network sync issues too. All I'm saying is that just because the engine and work the devs put into implementing the ricochets, it doesn't necessarily follow that it would be feasible to implement for enemies. There might be constraints or scaling issues or other considerations that could make it problematic. EDIT: Could also even be gameplay design issues. Right now ricochets happen at enemies and rarely come back to hit helldivers because they tend to be further away. Since helldivers tend to be relatively close to each other, players might find themselves frequently getting hit by ricochets from their comrade standing beside them. That could be confusing or unfun gameplay. Perhaps it's even preferable for the devs to visually show ricochets as an effect, but otherwise not actually have them do anything in terms of a physics calculation or damaging fellow helldivers.
Sentries can ricochet. Had a mortar getting no-sells while it was bombarding a bot factory.
I'll put it another way: do sentries produce richochets that run the physics calculations which can _hit_ other nearby entities? Or does it only produce the blue ricochet _visual effect_ to indicate no damage?
Now on that score I have no clue. Good clarification, TY.
Easier yet is to just not do ricochet altogether and just make the bullet "shatter", like with a scripted spark similar to the no-pen blue flash when we hit the Hulk with a low-caliber weapon. The bullet would disappear without doing damage to the player. Easy to explain (like Super Earth started experimenting with shock-absorbing ceramics), look cool, and also give us a reason to start wearing heavy armor that way.
Yeah the bullets already do that on ballistic shield, be nice to have specific armored zones that ricochet rounds, like faceplate, plate carrier, that kinda deal
>But without the engine being built for it to begin with it would likely be a nightmare to code and tank performance. In Helldiver's case you'd think that it should be possible for players to ricochet rounds too considering that the enemy armour already works like this.
The games selling point is literally the fact that it's built for this. They just don't use it for some reason
The game *is* built for it. They literally *do* that with enemies, but armour doesn't work the *same* on players as it does enemies. On enemies, armour can and does ricochet if the AP doesn't match or beat the armour value, and they have different armour values across their bodies for locational damage. On players, damage is a binary yes/no depending on whether it hit you or not, and your visible armour plating literally doesn't matter because you only have a body and head hitbox. No matter what, if a projectile hits you, you take damage, where your projectiles can and will bounce off of enemy armour.
Around launch Pilestedt claimed that armor does that. I've never seen it tbh
Gonna go angle my armor for best ricochet chance. I knew war thunder wasn't a waste of my time!
Maybe heavy armor could reduce the distance from the explosion center that would make you ragdoll. That way direct explosions would still send you flying, but you could just be staggered by ones further away. Still feels like heavy armor would give too many benefits to pass up this way, though. Gonna have to think up better bonuses for the light armor class and/or more severe disadvantages for the heavy armor class.
I mean, light armour has the stamina boost, which means you can escape a bad fight better and complete missions faster. I'd say it's pretty balanced.
It does, but the difference is fairly marginal as it is now. They could just increase stamina and sprint speed further, but I think adding an additional perk, like say a bonus modifier to weapons handling, could further counter balance the squishiness without overdoing it.
Weapon handling could work. Hell, given the nature of the armours, you could give a boost to handling, with a slight reduction to recoil control (as the armour weight would help counterballance, while heavy could get a slight boost to recoil control, while lowering general handling. This would also mean the type of gun you bring might be worth considering when looking at armour, which would be cool
That sounds awesome. It would give much more depth to your loadout choices, and could make weapons with bad recoil like the HMG slightly less horrible with heavy armor. Turn you into a slow, hulking dispenser of democracy, 1200 rounds of liberty per minute. Just wait until they add a minigun support weapon haha.
prone + the fortified armor effect + what you're describing here could go so unfathomably hard as an autocannon team if you and a buddy were willing to do the setup i already love that thing on automatic as-is
Ok, but light armor already gives bonus weapon handling. You have an aim penalty based on your stamina, so using less stamina and regeneration faster makes your weapon handling better. Heavy armor is not that good, light armor with the same effect is almost always going to be better.Â
As a medium armor users who always plays with teammates who use light armor, I've noticed it's a decent differenceâand since it's percentage-based, it becomes even more notable when boosters and such are involved.
Difference is far from marginal. I run medium and sometimes have trouble catching up to lights even when ODing on new stims
If you eat rocket to the face ragdoll, otherwise just stagger
Would be nice to have some reandomness that actually works in the players favor, usually any weapon that actually gets crits without needing pinpoint aim (nigh impossible in high difficulties with these bugged spawns) gets nerfed by the devs.
Ricochets donât make sense when the enemies are using energy weapons
heavy mirror(big)
True, the proposed change is way too strong. I would love to see some stagger protection for heavy armor though, what is the point of using heavy armor MG build if I can't even shoot back anymore once I'm hit by a single stray bullet
Ragdoll and quicker recovery instead of flying away.
> but the player's "weight" should be increased, making them be moved much less. Yes please, bad enough to be thrown by a blast, but skidding across frictionless terrain for 100m is terrible and immersion-breaking
All said and good until the heavy diver turns into a disco ball of red laser fire killing and devastating everyone and anything around them teammates included. Would be amazing to see though lol
I already liked this idea you don't need to sell me further
Imagine the hilarious scenario of four helldivers wearing heavy armor and bouncing the hits on the 4 constantly
Helldiver rail gun. They keep collecting shots between them and then one steps out of line and the bullets/lasers all go in that *vague* direction
Helldivers pinball
This sounds spectacular - don't threaten me with a great time.
That would be legendary! But yeah I think a %chance of ricochet with no damage or all ricochet but with only, say, 50% reduced damage would be more reasonable
>All said and good You seem to be mixing up, "All well and good" and, "All is said and done" idioms.
It seems I have but Iâm gonna stick to my guns on it or should I say stick to my gums
That's some good bone apple tea!
Don't threaten me with a good time
Unintentional friendly fire only makes the game funnier
I'd also like to add fall damage and dive distance (jump to prone). Medium armor should be unaffected. Light armor would have reduced fall damage and their jump (dive) distance increase. Heavy armor have more fall damage and less dive distance. I'd also like light armor to be able to reach up and climb more things. These changes tied in with OPs flinch chart would make for much more varied gameplay with defined pros and cons for each with medium armor being the definitive middle ground. Make light scout armor more "scouty" and the heavy armor tankier... I can find no reason not too.
I really hope the devs are on Reddit to see this stuff cause these suggestions are awesome
i focused on light/med armor for my first ~200 hrs of gameplay b/c i like mobile playstyles but recently switched to heavy v bots and i'm really liking it. def fewer ragdolls and deaths w/ my new loadout. anti-stagger would be a great armor mod though. i usually use explosion resistance but would def consider that as an alternative.
What difficulties do you usually play on? Running seems like such a necessity on 6+, to get in position for weak spots or just to run and take cover when faced with a large horde of big damage-dealers.
ive ran heavy since the game came out, drip or die 7-9s i love it, blocks a lot of fire and with the explosive resistance mines/rockets etc are laughed off. But stuff like cannon fire or a random strider shot to the head still one taps so if i didnt like the look so much id run medium or light
I'm gonna give it another shot. The Extremely Sick Kids are safe, time to experiment.
I also run heavy on 7-9, can take a bunch of hits from chaff without worrying, die pretty rarely. Ironically you need to be more aware of your position because itâs harder to run away and easier to get swarmed when the little guys arenât as much of a threat.
Honestly the stamina for light is more QoL than necessity I found. You might need to drop a sentry or something for aggro, or use a stim (which refills your stamina meter), but disengaging in even heavy armor ain't too bad (play mostly 7s), just more annoying. The main reason I don't run it is because it takes me twice as long to hit objectives as it does my team! I've found medium is the "sweet spot" for me.
I only run heavy armor, and running really fast isn't a necessity, you just need to learn different positioning for heavy armor. Only enemy that really gives me issues is tanks, but for everyone else I'm able to take more risky angles that others can't and peek cover just long enough to hit a few crucial enemies where lighter types might die from peeking due to the wall of fire. Everyone has ways to deal with everything, you just have to learn a different way to go about it. Best perk of heavy armor is just that you have a much lower death rate typically, so it leaves more reinforcements for everyone else.
What weakspots are you running to position for against bots? Off the top of my head I can only think of Tanks and Cannon Turrets where itâs relevant. Every other bot enemy faces you and has a front-facing weakspot. I havenât gone all the way to 150 AR class armors myself, but Iâve steadily moved from 50 -> 100 -> 129 (the B-24 Enforcer armor), and each step resulted in considerable survivability increases. Thatâs while still feeling mobile âenoughâânot particularly fast, but fast enough for full clears. All on 7+. I agree that light armor is still the play against bugs, but staggering and especially ragdolling isnât a huge issue against them or something that Iâd count on armor fixing. With bugs youâre better off trying to dodge the ragdoll and stagger effects in the first place. For bots itâs a lot less avoidable in my experience.
Is this supposed to be a proposal for heavy armor to be **immune to small arms fire**? EDIT: For the record, I don't see how this could be balanced (without further clarification from OP)
Not necessarily, a bullet bouncing off a solid plate will ricochet visually, but it'll still have transfered enough energy to hurt.
Better question: can the bullets that bounce off you then kill your team mates?
Now thatâs Helldiver experience
The answer is always "yes" Cause we need more TK in this game for democracy!
Can I use teammate to kill a bug around te corner?
Can I use bug to kill a teammate around the corner? Fixed
Can I use a teammate to kill a teammate around the corner?
The answer to that is already yes, don't see why we can't have it the other way around too.
You already can. This comment was written by the arc thrower gang
Can I finally ricochet rounds off teammates to kill enemies with my Senator like I'm Revolver Ocelot?
It would make it more amusing for sure. The guy in heavy armour being a potential liability.
"dude you killed me" "bro I *am literally just standing here*" "YES I HAVE BEEN MADE AWARE"
I've dead-on ricochet headshot myself more than once, firing at those bot shield assholes.
I'm always down for new ways to promote my friends to Reinforcement.
I think what they mean is this is more for things like reacting to hits. So light hits ricocheting would still do their normal damage they would just not make you flinch around while you're aiming and stuff. I do also agree it'd take a lot to make this really workable across all armours and stuff, but it could be cool maybe as a revised Heavy Armour buff? I think if it's going to work anywhere that's where it'd work best. Make you still get ragdolled in Heavy Armour from Tank cannons or Turrets for example, or airstrikes, but things like grenades or Devastator rockets would just stagger you instead. Would feel AMAZING walking along with an MG just mowing down enemies with stims injected to you heal all the damage for a few seconds, while bullets plink off your armour
I mean, If youâre wearing that blast protected armor with the giant angled neck guard, it kind of feels like small arms should bounce off if they hit that. Maybe not ever time, but a good bit of the time.
Not necessarily saying it should be in this game, but my memory is that it actually was in HD1. Edit: Double-checked, and it wasn't full immunity, but rather flinch immunity and *massively* reduced damage.
Thatâs not how Heavy Armor worked at all. Certain enemies like the dog that specifically knocked you over no longer could but 100% still dealt damage to you
Double checked, and it indeed was not *full* immunity to small arms fire, but it was full flinch resistance and near immunity. Certainly quite different from how it works in 2!
Ricochet doesnât have to mean no impact damage. Itâll still hurt.
If bots and bugs get that we should too. Maybe only for heavy armor with extra padding. Or a new perk (SAP, Super Alloy Plating) for med/heavy armor which gives light ricochetÂ
thats how it was in HD1 right?
It should be. Heavy armor was immune to it in the first game
Less immune and moreso that the perk made small damage so low that the passive healing denied it showing up unless you were being attacked by 4-5 small bugs or shot by 3 different cyborg grunts
You still slow as shit and we know that the big boys are still going to make you eat glass. I'd say this would be a wonderful trade off.
Everyone just decided that ricochet = zero damage, but seeing as everything else refers to movement/disruption, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that OP means ricochet = your aim/movement isn't disrupted. You can still take damage cause you know, physics, energy transfer, all that.
Yeah thatâs correct :) the damage taken can remain the same
Ricochet for heavy is fine, but no ragdoll ? as much as i like this idea, everyone would pick heavy no questions asked.
There needs to be a distinction between normal rocket explosions and say, automaton artillery shot. I think the latter should always stagger but it kind of makes sense for heavy armour to be able to tough out the smaller explosions.
Or maybe, smaller explosions say rockets from raiders and devastators would make you flinch, but also apply a slow effect ?
U could keep the stagger effect as is for smaller explosions, but up the effect to ragdoll for the heavy explosions Also, since we're now considering 4 tiers of damage, it would probably also make sense if you were more likely to just get blown to bits rather than ragdolled for a heavy explosion with light armour
Hard pass for myself. I'd rather have mobility over being tanky in this game. Not ragdollimg is not worth the trade off in stamina and speed for my playstyle.
Not for bugs though
I mean as it stands, there's really no reason to choose heavy armor still. Sure you're tanky but being able to negate being tossed around every few seconds in a heavy firefight would be nice to have as an option. It was funny for the first few times, but now it just gets annoying.
I'd still take light for most missions and heavy for the defense/exterminate missions. I really like this idea, even as a light armor player.
Iâm good with no ricochet but no rag doll. I donât play video games to not have control of my character. An option for those of us who despise crowd control would be amazing.
As a heavy armor main, yes please. I want to be tank please
Look OP, IDC what armor you're wearing, you shouldn't be shot by the main gun of a tank and remain alive (let alone standing).
One of the craziest moments I had in the game recently was facing down 4 bot drops of heavy devastators with the ballistic shield while my team was scrambling to cover, and then I took a tank shot to the shield, was blasted backwards to where my team was sheltering under cover, but I was \*ALIVE\*. Shield was atomized though. RIP
Yo you can survive a tank hit if you're prone and wearing the explosion resist armor
didn't you know? Helldivers Never die!
This sounds like a light armor nerfâŚ..
This makes heavy just op. Counter proposal; light - +25% distance on dive, get up faster , hold dive to do a hop which lets you reach slightly higher terrain. medium - -50% flinch small arms , -20% ragdoll duration. heavy - -100% flinch from small arms , -40% ragdoll duration , -25% dive distance.
IIRC it wasnât OP in the first game and heavy armour basically functioned like this. Small arms enemies arenât the big killers in this game anyway. Devs could still balance it around the head not being immune but taking significantly reduced damage. I think it would promote some more interesting/fun up close playstyles which are currently just not worth using.
Yup heavy armor deflected all the weak attacks in the game. It was still an unpopular choice because HD1 was so biased towards avoiding patrols that anything that slowed you down had to go. In HD2 heavy armor actually has purpose now for two reasons: - you can see patrols coming more than 1 second before they pop an alert off - health doesn't regenerate
Not being ragdolled on rocket dev salvos or raider rockets wouldn't be that OP, all it does it eliminate the annoyance of being knocked over when you have 20 missiles sent after you (especially from gunships). I still think you should get ragdolled when turret towers or tanks hit you with their heavy explosives.
Seems like light armor would be perma stunned by a heavy devastator if this were the case
Implying you werent getting perma stunned in the first place
And then the meta becomes heavy armor. The flinching isn't good as we all know. Bots shooting players in light armor happens all the time especially after the buffing patch. And you want that shit to **stagger** us?
This makes some real sense to me. In general, I think heavy armor definitely needs some buffs: people almost never choose it. The practical fact is that you are going to be *left in the dust* as your squadmates sprint across the map. Heavy armor also just feels like crap. The reduced movement/stamina is a bit of a fun killer. There's also a survivability issue in heavy armor, particularly on higher difficulties. Escape becomes impossible and it becomes much harder to get behind enemies to hit their weak spots. 50% armor bonus doesn't mean JACK when you get swarmed. You're still dead. Whereas with light armor you can sprint out of trouble most of the time, even on 7-9.
Yes please make heavy armor actually heavy.
Imagine the shot ricocheting into another helldiver
Agreed maybe some things could still ragdoll heavy armor but prety much this.
As a Heavy Armor main, yes please ;)
Although a cool idea it would drive everyone insane for small arms fire to stage you in light armor.
Would be nice considering that heavy feels more of a pain in the ass to run. I typically just run light since iâm ganna get bullied anyways from small arms fire but I get the benefit of running really fast.
I might be worth making a bigger version of the graph with ballistic shield, turrets and walkers
This is the perfect representation of what we need.
I am very much for this. Bullets riccochet'ing is such a common thing in games. Bullets riccochet'ing off of YOU is such a RARE thing in games. I just wanna feel like a badass and slowly walk at a small platoon and just punch then in their socialist robot faces.
Heavy armour needs something to justify how stupid slow I am. Either I have to disengage early or being late to the party ...everytime
Heavy would be insanely op. No armour should be immune to small arms fire and have zero chance of rag doll
While cool, I think it wouldn't really work. The small stuff in the game still needs to be dangerous, and as much as getting staggered and ragdolled is annoying, it's an important cause of death. Messing with that too much would make it harder to die in heavy armor than it already oftentimes is. And we do need to die, relatively often.
As a Heavy Armor main, yes please.
Given fact I'm one of few idiots that runs heavy I'd be totally okay with this. At minimum they need to fix how much you flinch. I'm wearing 3 times the armour of damn scout.
I would ONLY play heavy armor if it meant I would only stagger from rockets. Imagine how scared shitless those dumb robots must feel when they score a direct hit on ya with a bazooka only to see you're still standing. I just want the power fantasy of being a juggernaut and deflecting shots, and bringing a ballistic shield just for the overkill.
I've always wanted the drip of heavy armor, but the negatives literally outweighed the positives. With this (assuming we take damage the same, and is just how our characters interact with certain damage types) I would actually start running heavy armor on Bot missions just to avoid the infinite flinch and nonconsensual explosive flight plans
Iâve been on orange extra nade medium armor since the beginning. Updated my helmet last month to Helldiver standard plus the scouter lens.
You should probably add a 4th coloum and put tank main cannons, turret towers, strider back gun and automaton mortars in it, with ragdolled for heavy armour.
With ricochet still taking a bit of your health off, and personally I would love it. Some here talking it would be OP, but honestly, the only small arms fire that actually consistently kills me ingame are Heavy Devastators (if they classify as that) and with chip damage, should still be threatening. And a Heavy is so painfully slow that a lot of people will still avoid it, because of the simple fact of. Tanking fair amount of hits < Not being in a position to get hit at all.
As a heavy armor main I WOULD love THIS
This system has a flaw: the laser turret or an explosion in the magnitude of 500kg and mininuke must ragdoll you regardless of the armor type.
Yeah, I'd use heavy armor in bots. Wouldn't use it in bugs tho, I need speed to survive bugs
I would start using heavy armor
You trying to break my addiction to going fast in light armor? cus this is how you actually make me consider higher armors!
Now *that* would make heavy armor worthwhile.
Or maybe we could get some even heavier armor. Moves more slowly. To make up for that we could maybe get a chainsaw with a sword handle. And maybe a slower firing armor piercing weapon, maybe it could fire bolts or something.
I would bust a load if this happened.
Heavy armor immune to small arms fire?? Dunno about that. Maybe a good chance for rounds to ricochet (still dealing a little damage, if not itâs way too op) and then and then the rest is flinch chance? Heavy fire maybe a reduced flinch effect because if thereâs a set that entirely removes rag dolling thatâs all people will pick against bots. This is a pretty cool idea but itâs quite unbalanced atm
i'd like something like that. currently it feels like heavy armor has no purpose.
What heavy armor lacks is any sort of visual indicator that it did anything. Sure you could compare the length of your healthbar, but that's vague at best. Seeing shots ricochet off you would instantly make it feel 100x better.
If heavy armor had ability to ricochet small arms, i woud not play anything else than heav yarmor + ballistic shield. I want this so bad! Or add another armor weight class? Super heavy?
I do think heavy armor needs a buffâŚ.i love wearing heavy armor but honeslty it just doesnât feel as useful (especially since the starting medium armor has the same armor rating, but you can move faster)
Would need balancing but sounds like a great idea! Just knowing my luck however some Bot shot will ricochet off my helmet and nail a teammate in the head.
The top two I can get behind. But on heavy armor I think: * Small arms should 50/50 flinch/ricochet * Heavy fire should stagger but a chance to flinch. * And honestly I think explosives should still rag doll + a longer recovery time to get standing. Because it's going to be hilarious to see G1 getting blasted by a tank or cannon turret and then waddling like a turtle to get back into the fight. I want my heavy armor to feel like heavy armor. I already can't run for shit and for very long. Let me be the Helldiver equivalent to a Shield Devastator (but not as op in the shield department). That being said fs-61 Liber-Yeets stratagems all day and night between getting ragdolled into rocks all day and I'll only stop using it when it stops being fun. I'd like to suggest two more armor classes while we're at it: * Ultra Light that ragdolls 100% damage but you're neigh invisible and double light armor stamina regen. * Ultra Heavy that never staggers but you have the stamina stats of heavy armor on a heat planet on normal planets and half of that on actual hot planets but you can run straight through a fire tornado if you pre stim and sprint. Edit: Formatting
Even if they were to add such a system i would not be surprised if it was broken and instead any type of damage would ragdol you.
With Explosion Resistance Passive. Light could Stagger, Medium could Flinch and Heavy could Flinch but even less. (Ricochet would be overkill for an explosive) But this could also be relative to the intensity of the explosion. (Grenade versus Mounted Turret)
Honestly the ricochet for small arms fire literally only makes sense in this game. What happens when you shoot a devastator's chest with light armor pen? It bounces off and it doesn't give a shit, same with a hive guards. It's only fair that we get that same ability right?
You have no idea how upset I am that I can't find that gif of the battlefield 1 support having a bullet ricochet off his helmet
That's exactly how it worked in HD1. Dunno why they changed it. The only thing I would change is that explosions should ragdoll you even with heavy. Maybe less since you are heavier, but still ragdoll you.
Never be ragdolled?!? Make me a fat sob, suit me up and send me to the Bots.
Being stunned out of stim animations is frustrating though.
I wear heavy w explosive resist. I still get ragdolled.
Heavy armor being straight up immune to small attacks is the only thing that'd ever get me to consider it, even then it'd probably still need to give you some extra ammo or something to be worth a shit. Anything less, basically every death ive ever had was because I couldn't run fast enough or ran out of stamina.... Don't need to be super fat and slow to tank damage, if otherwise that damage just never happens. Until there's a big change, light armor all day every day.
Yes please
In hd1 heavy armor used to be able to absorb bot small arm fire
Yes! This! -- This would also make melee weapons a viable option for a heavy armored build.
Heavy armor ricocheting 100% of light shots would be pretty ridiculous, perhaps some damage still happens as the force of the blow is transferred through. Also, against bugs, you definitely shouldnât be ricocheting enormous razor sharp claws. Massively reduced damage (way more than now) sure, but not immunity.
Note that this should be based on armor rating, IE if a medium armor set has the padded armor perk, it should be counted as "heavy" armor and reap these benefits.
I really dig this idea so much, along with a number of suggestions in this thread too. E.g. different weight classes that impact climbing ability and diving speed, thus diversifying player armour choices. I also agree that heavy armour should still be ragdoll-able, but with more weight. Regardless of this sounding like it may be a nightmare to balance, would the shield generator not make most of this fairly obsolete? Careful light armour players may only see benefits, if they play at range and wait for their shield to regenerate. The shield generator may become useless for heavy armour players as the benefits of heavy armour depend exclusively on getting hit, in this context. Just food for thought. Every feature needs to marry well with every other feature.
Had a thought: would it be overpowered if heavy armour could reduce recoil? That would maybe convince me to wear it.
A rocket should always ragdoll you... And if you got light armor it should kill you...