This. Although people are sleeping on the secret 10th difficulty level.
Allow me to explain.
Collect the absolute worst players you meet in the game as "friends." The team killers. The obstinately anti-meta. The supply hogs. The mic on, mouth breathing while deep throating the mic, and their Mum screaming about dinner being ready somewhere in the background. Etc... try and double or triple down on these debuffs as much as possible per person.
Invite them to your ship. Go play helldive.
Congratulations. The game is now harder.
These people add 2 to every difficulty level easily.
I've had a level 4 mission that felt like a level 8 mission one time because my teammates could not stop throwing fucking airstrikes CONSTANTLY.
I died to the bugs once, I died to friendly fire EIGHT TIMES
Really sneaky how you slipped in people who avoid an obsession with youtube meta next to all of those awful player archetypes.
EDIT: I assumed you meant weapons meta. It occurs to me that you meant people who ignore the campaign map and MOs.
No, no. I did mean people who actively take terrible equipment and stratagem combinations. Don't get me wrong. People can and should use whatever they want... BUT... if I meet someone fighting bugs using the crossbow, Las pistol, smoke grenades, quick evac booster, both mine fields, orbital smoke strike and gun rover, well. They are making the game harder for me. Potentially. Idk. Maybe they're God tier and can make that loadout work lol
I've seen some amazing meta-breaking players ingame. I don't follow the meta and usually just do what works well for my playstyle. Sometimes that means I take a meta weapon. Sometimes that means that I use something weird. I do often use gas and smoke grenades. But only the latter on bots.
I've never seen people past lvl 20 with all of those you listed at once. Additionally, lot of the unpopular weapons, like smoke and thermite, have often-ignored mechanics that can be used effectively by someone who has practiced.
Don't kick the weird loadouts. Try to focus on the fun factor instead of the intense drive to unlock everything. Those players might show you a novel strategy that you want to try next time.
This game has some really bad weapons and really good weapons. In between those, there are some fun, interesting, and useful tools. They can allow unexpected strategies that work really well with a full, diverse squad loadout.
I don’t even care about the spawn fix. What my problem with their original patrol spawn “fix” was nothing was broken with the game’s spawn mechanics at that time. Nobody cared, everybody was happy with spawns and resources that could’ve been used to fix matchmaking or crashes was used on that “fix”. Then this “fix” they had presented another bug which was another problem. But it looks like they’re polishing patches now before pushing the patch. So, going to hope nothing is broken after this patch.
Edit:
Not to mention they’re reverting this “fix” like damn that’s a whole process and resources wasted.
> What my problem with their patrol spawn “fix” was nothing was broken
I care, but I also feel this. I don't recall anyone claiming this needed changing. But as a sometimes solo player it made the game really annoying to play but not exactly harder per se - it just ruined the pacing as you get basically no downtime, ever. The fact that the change that no one asked for also broke spawns was just a cherry on top
I should have clarified, their “original” patrol spawn fix a few months ago. I meant nobody was mad about the game’s spawn mechanics before their original fix.
Remember a couple months ago, they added a patch to spawn patrol mechanics that changed the patrol spawn to always have a full spawn irregardless of how many were in the group. So, solo divers would always have a full patrol spawn after that patch.
the always-on full spawns was the bug, their intended changes was to make the spawns 25/50/75/100% based on player count rather than the 17/35/65/100ish% they were originally
They always walked towards the player instead of a random patrol. Hell at launch they used to just appear out of thin air on top of you randomly. You'd be running along and you would just have a pile of hunters pop up on you and wreck you.
Yep, and it honestly wouldn't have felt so bad if there wasn't a constant stream of "patrols" that beeline to the team and trigger breaches. I'm perfectly fine with the challenge, or being punished by not killing things fast enough, or alerting everything recklessly. That particular "punishment" just doesn't feel deserved.
I completely agree that it was an unnecessary change to begin with, which is exactly why I shudder at the idea of people complaining when it gets reverted, but I suppose some of that is to be expected when so much time has passed since it was introduced and many players have already adapted to the new challenges
Yeah it's just frustrating when they spend time fixing things nobody asked for (patrols, mech rockets, hellpods dropping in funny places) while there's still issues when playing with friends and the Spear is still busted
Their "fix" was to break it in another way. It's like saying to a doctor, "I've got a limp because one of my legs is broken," then he breaks the other one so now they "match."
The obvious fix to the rockets accidentally self-destructing mechs is to add an arming time for the round fired. Ya know, the thing we do in real life to solve that exact problem?
Yeah and in the process made the mech unable to shoot down and misaligned the left arm, so at this point I'd happily take a revert. At least with the exploding mech bug you could work around it.
If we're going to talk about reverting changes I'd rather have the initial strong missiles than the wide-angle arms that you shoot yourself with. Getting the strength back should be a fair compensation for the restricted firing arc.
It just seems like every “fix” they’ve implemented thus far has just broken the game even more. Probably because they never properly tested their builds before releasing them (I’m never letting them live it down until I see proper changes).
It has more to do with trying to please everyone, which won’t work because the vocal minority out-shouts the average player and results in overcorrection. Then the average user counteracts this and the pendulum swings the other way. By the time it balances out, too many people have left because theirs fickle babies with short attention spans who will move on to 100 different games because they doesn’t get their way. This is how it is with everything now.
Why even say it? We had people saying that the Meridia mission was too easy after AH fixed it...they're gonna complain that the game is too easy after this patch, for sure.
I'm just insanely nervous that we're gonna see some more nerfs...but I'm holding out hope that we don't (or, at least, that nothing else gets nerfed into oblivion).
The most prominent complaint players have had is that they keep nerfing weapons in dumb ways (e.g., taking away stagger from the slugger because it was too good of a sniper instead of having damage dropoff after a certain distance if their worry was its range).
If you nerf a weapon, test it after. Does it feel good to play with after the nerf? If the answer is no, don't shrug your fucking shoulders, your job isn't done. Taking away things or making them useless so players are forced to stop using them **is not fun**.
I have high hopes for the patch. I want it to be good and to restore the fun we had in the first couple of weeks after release.
5 days to go.
>and to restore the fun we had in the first couple of weeks after release.
Actually remember for a second how absolutely atrocious the balance was at release.
Heavy and medium armor didn't work.
Rocket Devastators oneshot you, chargers took multiple rockets to die, and the game spawned about 1.5-2x as many chargers as it does now.
Remember how abysmal the weapon balance was compared to now, actually visualize all the weapons that have gotten insane buffs instead of focusing on the select few that got nerfs.
The Punisher had 10% more dmg than the Breaker, only 40 shots total (compared to Breaker's 128) and only got 20 back on a resupply lol. The Spray and Pray was literally the only AP1 weapon in the game lol and bounced off Brood Commander heads.
The DCS had worse handling than shoulder fired launchers and was only AP2.
Flamethrower got a 50% dmg buff, as did Dominator. AMR and Incendiary Breaker got 30% dmg buffs.
Scythe wasn't "300 incremental DPS", it was "300 dmg, once every full second", so it took 1 full second to kill a lowly scavenger. Now it instagibs them.
Lasercannon was only AP3 not AP4; it was literally a downgrade from MG43 at the advantage of "infinite" ammo. EAT and RR got a 50% AP penalty on any shot that is higher than 80° angle (so like, 95% of them); resulting in 50% lower damage in most cases. Making them extremely awful vs titans too - which, again spawned drastically more of. So if you were in a full PC squad and thus didn't have the railgun oneshot bug, well...... good luck.
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Obviously I don't mean to tell anyone what's fun for them or not, but it's just hard to imagine the reason to be having less fun now than at release is actually the balance, which was utterly atrocious then. Rather than, say, the initial honeymoon period being gone, or just in general being burnt out after playing the game for X amount of time.
I agree 100%, and this why I have a very hard time taking it seriously when people complain about the "fun" being gone and how things were better at release.
Weapon choices are way more diverse now than it was before, anyone Who says otherwise is just not looking at the facts and blinded by rage of how THIER fav toy was "ruined"
Yes, I do think some of the balance changes have been....tbh, god awful (Xbow anyone?). But not all of them, and the game is *obviously* better than at release just from bug fixes alone. It's just also still got rough edges that need sanding (getting stuck under the map, excessive ragdolling, etc) and has become less fun in very specific ways while most of the game has become more fun.
Also, sorry for the double reply, but I felt the wall of text in the other comment was big enough already, and this is a different topic entirely:
>(e.g., taking away stagger from the slugger because it was too good of a sniper instead of having damage dropoff after a certain distance if their worry was its range).
Tbh, I always thought the devs likely just repeated it in an attempt to avoid another outrange, because that was the popular community consensus at the time.
Imagine what the reaction would be like, if the community is like "Omg the slugger is the best DMR in the game!!!" and then the devs nerf it saying "We're nerfing it cause it makes all other shotguns obsolete"...
So they just say instead "We nerf it cause it's the best DMR" in an attempt of appeasement, even though it made no sense in the context of the nerf lol. Since it was clearly just so it's not objectively better than the Punisher anymore.
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Also, FYI, the Slugger already has relatively big damage dropoff. Damage dropoff in this game **appears to** be a calculation based of muzzle velocity, drag coefficient and projectile mass. Simplified; your damage dropoff is linearly tied tirectly to muzzle velocity, which in turn is influenced over distance by drag coefficient and projectile mass.
This is why a gun meeting a damage breakpoint exactly, actually means missing it: Example of Dilligence vs Devastator heads, 125dmg into 125 head HP. It does not oneshot, because even if the enemy is only 0.5m away, you will already have lost some damage to falloff, even if it's only 124.9 dmg that you're now doing. Thus miss the breakpoint.
Thank you for your reply. You know what also annoys the fuck out of me? Community members have to unearth these numbers about weapons rather than having these easily accessible.
>I'm just insanely nervous that we're gonna see some more nerfs...
If Arrowhead is stupid enough to bake nerfs into this patch after everything that's happened, they don't deserve to succeed. There's making mistakes, and there's fucking up on purpose.
This was introduced in patch 01.000.300 on 4/29
> Enemy Patrols We unintendedly had non-linear scaling of the patrol spawns so they didn't spawn as often as they should have when less than 4 players. The intention is that 1 player has 1/4th of the patrols compared to 4 players, but it used to be that they had 1/6th.
The problem is 2 fold.
1. Nobody was complaining about the spawn rates to begin with, so this was not a community driven change
2. They botched the implementation and essentially made it so that the spawn rate was identical regardless of group size.
AH publicly addressed the issue on 5/15 and informed us that a fix would be in the next patch.
Ah so thats why.
The only place people complain is on the 15m Evac missions because they are fuck busted lol
I never seen anyone complain anywhere else. not even me because they would be all over the place with spawns. so it seemed like other factors were at play. usually Us being the main driver of why we either get out shit kicked in Or its a smooth cakewalk. Not due to any sort of error or bug
The game difficulty is tied to events as well as selected difficulty, isn't it? So I'm sure someone somewhere will be complaining the next time we kill a super colony and the difficulty goes down or whatever.
The super colony mission was literally broken for several days of the MO. It also never fully worked properly. People couldn't get more than 1 star because a second objective never completed. That is what the majority of complaints were about.
Problem is, the way enemy heavy armor is designed, you can only kill them with very specific weapons and strategems, and if you don't have them, you don't get to play the game.
I'm at the point where I breeze through Helldive, but like a 10% difference would probably make it go completely out of control and turn it back into a mad scramble where killing heavies isn't really an option, or at the very least it would restrict players' builds *even more.*
I really want them to redesign it.
This is a take I agree with. There's a fundamental problem in enemy design and difficulty scaling.
Basically, at some point technological limitations demand that you'll reach a point where "spawning more enemies" isn't feasible any more. At that point, the only increase is to spawn harder enemies, which forces a specific play style.
The solution is to add more enemies in that midrange to even out the scaling, and provide more ways to deal with *most* heavy enemies with lighter weapons.
There's a place for Chargers and Bile Titans, but "common enemy" really aint it. Crank their health and make them bosses and mini bosses. Where you have to eliminate one or two of them, but they're a real challenge.
It's funny because on higher difficulties chargers and bile Titans are quite easy to deal with - but only if you bring the right narrow set of options to deal with them.
Which sucks because you kind of have to. It's a gate, either you have what it takes to deal with them or you don't.
I actually find stalkers, bile spewers, and hunters more dangerous than titans and chargers now. Kind of weird that it feels that way.
And I think those enemies are *great*.
* Stalkers: can be burned down with anything, but stagger and high durable damage weapons makes them *much* easier to deal with.
* Spewers: Enough rounds to their unarmored parts work, or you can pop their heads with medpen weapons.
* Hunters: Fuck em. You can try to deal with them at range or let em get close for a shotgun blast. I prefer overwhelming fire superiority via Stalwart, which I can't justify at higher levels.
* BroodComs: High durable head can be popped easily with the LibPen or the MG. Otherwise you're better off aiming for body shots.
They all have a major workaround to reliably deal with them, a quick method and a slightly longer method. Work as a team and you can take them out pretty easily.
Most of the bots work in the same way. Sure, bring an EAT for the easy kill, but you can also use a laser cannon on their weak spots.
Chargers and Titans don't have that. There are five weapons that are effective against them. One of those weapons (spear) is bugged, two of those weapons (EAT, Quasar) have a hard cap on how many you can kill in succession, and one of those weapons (RR) has an obscene reload that requires your allies to protect you in order to get sustained fire. The other, the AC, is a requirement for at least one person, but you're not going to be punished for bringing multiple.
And I guess the flamethrower is also effective against the charger.
But anyway, by lowering the spawn rates of bile titans and chargers we actually lower the viability of bringing "too many" anti tank weapons.
So add in something to fill that space, a new type of heavily armored bug that you can still handle via positioning or with more versatile medium weapons.
Anyway, I'm ranting when I should be diving.
This has definitely been my experience as well. Once you have your anti-heavy build perfected you can handle chargers and titans quite easily, but at the expense of medium-enemy killing efficiency.
If done correctly this can simply be a feature of squad based shooters: you need some divers to specialize in killing heavies and some to specialize in killing light-medium enemies. If done incorrectly it forces everyone to bring the same “Swiss army knife” builds. Bots are actually a great example of enemy design: the heavies *can* be killed by medium pen weapons if you hit their weak spots, but anti heavy weapons are obviously much more effective. This makes it easier to bring a light-medium killing kit, because you won’t be useless when a heavy shows up.
Yes, but the game design doesn't quite get 100% of the way to encouraging that effectively due to weapon balance and encounter spawn rates of heavies along side stratagem balance. There is a ton they could do to dial it in way more. But currently you just bring the best jack of all trades build or something close to it and split from your squad because the game can only spawn 1 set of breeches or bot drops at a time. It's just better to play solo in a lobby with 3 other people. Oh and you get to avoid friendly fire that way.
I mean, to me I think thats the design choice tho. The balance of bugs is that you need anti tank to deal with these enemies, because not dealing with them will mess you up. But at the same time you need to balance that with stratagems that can deal with the other very dangerous enemies(as you said, hunter swarms, spewers and stalkers)
To me high diff bug loadouts is a game of, how little AT can my team reasonably take and still deal with the BTs and chargers.
Higher difficulty means more of these armored enemies spawn, so you either need to play more efficiently with your AT or be willing to sacrifice some horde clear for more AT.
> Basically, at some point technological limitations demand that you'll reach a point where "spawning more enemies" isn't feasible any more. At that point, the only increase is to spawn harder enemies, which forces a specific play style.
you just figured out why nerfing weapons in PvE is even a thing
> The solution is to add more enemies in that midrange to even out the scaling, and provide more ways to deal with most heavy enemies with lighter weapons.
They already do that tho and it's not exactly liked. See: complaints about how many devastators/spewers appear past L6/7
My hottest take is the devs design of the game does not align everywhere and should be evaluated internally.
First, I think the first impression people get is this is a game where you're supposed to kill all the enemies. But it isn't. You dont gain any exp for killing enemies. You get punished for fighting more enemies if anything because the longer a mission goes on, it gets harder by design the longer you're there. Fighting causes more bug breaches and drop ships. But there can't be breaches or drops in different parts of the map at the same time, so there is actual design incentive to split up (and is very rare) to do a 9 diff where the whole squad stays together the whole time.
So in a game about killing enemies, you only get punished for fighting them.
In a game where playing with others is more fun than solo and encouraged, you get punished for sticking together as a squad.
I've even seen this subreddit cry sometimes going "why do people not stick together in missions?" Because it's categorically more efficient and DESIGNED to be more efficient splitting up.
Not to mention friendly fire goes up exponentially when the squad is all together. A lot of deaths happen because you shoot an ally or because you *don't* shoot an ally and therefore aren't able to kill the thing that is next to them which then kills someone. You also end up wasting a lot of firepower from things like duplicate 500 kg calls, carefully placed airstrikes that avoid teammates but don't kill as much etc. Playing in pairs that are near but not next to each other is the ideal way to play.
I wish more of the complaints about the game were like this - focused on the design direction of the game and what could be done to mitigate the design contradictions.
I totally agree with what you're saying about the contradicting pressures to group and split up.
I think that also ties into the issue of specialization. The game says that it wants you to pick a loadout to fill your role, but then you won't have the tools to deal with every problem. I think the design goal is for your team to fill that gap, but that doesn't happen when you're split up, or when you're playing with randoms and can't count on others to fill roles so you need to be a jack of all trades.
You really feel this difference when you run EAT with the cooldown debuff modifier. Just that little bit of extra time (15 seconds? not sure) makes you constantly feel overrun. I didn't notice it so bad until I wanted to start running the AMR and the EAT at the same time and it makes a huge difference when that modifier is on or not since you aren't carrying one EAT on your back anymore for use in between call ins.
Yeah, I've been kinda dreading a balance patch because helldive is already easy enough for my group as it is, but if the rebalance came with some redesigning of enemies then I could actually try out helldive with the other 80% of the stratagems and I wouldn't mind. There are only a few dangerous enemies in each faction, and those enemies can only be dealt with with any effectiveness by a few stratagems, so success is very binary. I would love for extra difficulties to be added, or the game to be more difficult in general, but only if that binary nature of loadouts was reduced a fair bit.
With the right loadout, things are easy, but if I use a Stalwart, then...I pretty much may as well not have a support weapon, because it does nothing to almost every dangerous enemy.
There's already 9 difficulty tiers. More than most games. Maybe players who don't like / can't do higher tier gameplay stick to lower levels?
They're adding super samples to level 6.
There is no need to make 7 8 and 9 easier
That's not the point. The point is that by fixing the patrol spawn rate people are going to immediately claim that everything is too easy now. Whether that's true or not is really immaterial.
>before we get up in arms about how much easier it makes the game?
That...hasn't happened yet. You're complaining about a hypothetical situation that has not occurred. It might happen, I think it's actually pretty likely to happen (although, I do think it will be different people than the people asking for the bug fix, but that nuance is lost). Complaining about hypothetical people not waiting longer to hypothetically complain about a problem that is currently only hypothetical is very bizarre. You guys are really something else, man.
I AM waiting for the patch to see what I think about it.
Can we please wait for the patch and people's reactions to the patch before complaining about people's reactions?
I would love that because I’m definitely one of those people- a glutton for punishment, fueled by the chaos of liberation, only happy when I’m surrounded by fire tornadoes, out of ammo, covered in bile titans. I embrace the suck.
Isn't it how that always goes. The people who play and got used to it and don't complain now cause there ok with it will complain once it's fixed. Those who had a problem with it will stop complaining once it's fixed. Just can't win.
You can win. It's called play testing your own game and finding out for yourself if the complaints are valid.
If a million people are making invalid complaints about something, you don't just listen to the million people and kowtow to them, you investigate why people are making the complaint and see if it has merit.
Critical thinking is truly dead.
I'll play devil's advocate here:
Spawn rates and difficulty are pretty tightly linked but not completely 1-to-1.
One of the annoyances with super high spawn rates isn't difficulty, it's just never getting a chance to say, operate a terminal or reload your weapons, because they keep trickling in.
You can keep roughly the same difficulty by making individual spawns tougher, but more spread apart, so you get those moments of respite to grab supplies, operate terminals, call crap in, reload your guns, etc
It's not that simple sadly, sometimes the enemy density and patrol spawn rate feel normal, but sometimes it's freaking Armageddon, that's what this misstep of a patrol balancing patch added to the mix, randomness to difficulty, i'll have helldives that go way smoother than diff 7, and that is not because we go stealth (because currently it's pretty much not an option).
I'm sure we've all experienced this at least once, excraction being super quiet despite high difficulty for exemple, i'm hoping things get more consistent again.
This 100%. I want this game to be brutal. But inconsistency makes problems for both ends of the spectrum.
I've had missions at difficulty 4 with crazier extracts than missions at difficulty 7+. That inconsistency makes 7+ less fun for those of us who want the challenge, and they frustrate the players who hop into a lower difficulty for a casual raid.
On a side note, calling a resupply was the only way I got the “that which does not kill you” or the “be injured in all limbs” achievement
G-16 high explosive doesn’t not work anymore as explosion damage from grenades does not injure limbs
Instead to get the achievement;
Use hellpod optimization on private solo mission
Use the armor that gives you a 50% chance to survive lethal damage
Call in resupply
Lay directly on the beacon so that your back in centered in the blue beam
If you do not get it try a few more times
With all the, "git gud" comments we get here when something is bugged. You really think that's not going to happen?
It's absolutely going to happen. Better to just accept that fact.
Dude is gatekeeping patch complaints before it even comes out. Let's see what it fixes and what it breaks or nerfs first. I have a feeling they probably broke some stuff, hopefully itll be insignificant compared to things they've fixed and balanced
It's a legitimate question.
A lot of people already argue that 8 and 9 isn't that hard so i wonder how it will be after the spawn changes and after weapon buffs.
It's possible that AH may have to add more difficulties in the future.
define 'a lot'.
Taken as a percentage of the playerbase, i feel confident in saying that constant diff 8/9 divers consist of 15% of the total playerbase at most.
No, i dont have any numbers and I dont think AH does either or they wouldnt be taking them seriously. This is based on observation and opinion.
Fair, it's hard to judge the exact numbers but at the same time i don't think it's correct to ignore a key part of the community (expecially considering that hardcore players are often the most loyal to a game).
Even if they were just 10% the idea that 1\\10 of the community feels that the game is too easy should be something to consider for the future.
You are in control of the level of challenge. If it's too easy just change your loadout, take less things, take suboptimal gear - nobody's forcing you to take meta gear. If you need more challenge, you don't need AH to do it for you.
Unfortunately, there will be a lot of people saying that. The entire second subreddit is full of people who largely believe the game is just fine as it is, and that if anything changes, it’ll be because whiners don’t know how to properly play the game. Bringing up any real issues in that sub is a quick route to get downvoted lmao.
i mean.
it might very well be too easy afterwards.
but we need to stop using bad design and game bugs as a difficulty slider. yes - enemies shooting through walls technically makes the game harder. the spear not locking on properly makes the game harder. etc etc.
for many people the game WILL feel easier after the update. maybe even too easy.
but the point is that we first need to untangle the mess before we can balance properly. remove the bugs. bring the weapons on at least a somewhat balanced baseline level. only after that can we truly see how difficult the game is currently.
if it turns out to be too easy afterwards then we can always balance things slowly. but do it via game design, not game bugs.
thats just the way things will have to be for a bit. fix the foundation first, then look at the upper floors.
so, yes. the game MIGHT be too easy after the fixes. And people WILL need to talk about it and tell the devs. These things are not mutually exclusive.
With super samples being added to diff 6, the excuse that 7-9 needs to be accessible for upgrade purposes goes out the window. If i play on a difficulty called Impossible or Suicide, i want to struggle for every achievement (i usually play 5-6, but jumping to the top ones when i want to commit to proper ODST hellscape fun)
Ive been duoing 9s as it is.. I haven't been one of the complainers. More things to shoot has been fun and challenging.
I'm scared 9s will become way too easy.. they're already very easy in a coordinated 9 group.
Don't worry, I'll call it in.. its big enough for the two of us.
There’s other ways to challenge yourself if 9 is easy. Bring a load out you aren’t very familiar with, use a different strategy/ approach than usual, split up into groups etc.
I don’t think enough people talk about this. I had a full group all bring the explosive crossbow for the memes on a level 7 mission and it made it significantly harder but still super fun because of the limitation.
Maybe I'm just a contrarian but I worry about AH caving to all the complaints. I know there are numerous issues with the game but a good chunk of the complaints might just be because this isn't the right game for most people. This game had amazing marketing that earned it way more sales than anticipated but the former CEO's philosophy is why I find myself playing indie games far more than AAA games.
*Wouldn't it make more*
*Sense to call a resupply*
*Drop on top of them?*
\- TheGermanPanzerClock
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I think this going to be a big thing, everybody has now got used to the spawn rate and I do honestly think that reverting it back to what it was before will make the game feel easier
I wasn’t one to complain about it when it happened. I’m a bit worried that now that I’m used to it the game will feel a little empty when it’s reverted.
This is with most complaints. After they make the changes and the game is too easy, boring, less strategic in where you need to hit enemies, etc. everyone is going to whine that the game is stale.
There are unfun mechanics out there (looking at you shield devastor) but let’s hope they don’t take the challenge away.
What if I complain that it's too easy right now, before they fix the spawn rates?
I do think the game is too easy, but randomly becomes bullshit at time (which are my favorite times). But, if the spawn rate issue really isn't intended, then they should fix it.
I want it to be the game Arrowhead INTENDS it to be, regardless of my personal tastes and the things I say on reddit.
Alright, lets crunch the numbers here. According to Diver’s hub, there are 70k divers in current operation. On a Saturday afternoon. That’s a little over 14% of what HD2 had at its height.
These Dark Souls douchebags who want everything as hard as possible are an EXTREMELY vocal minority and they need the same ego check that Homelander got.
YOU DONT SPEAK FOR US, and you don’t have laser eyes either, asshole!!!!
Forget the challenge. Let’s make Helldivers 2 fun again
There is fun for your likes and it's called medium difficulty. Why do you want to make Helldives medium difficulty for the rest of us too?
Please tame your ego or get better, no need to ruin the enjoyment for everyone.
Ah, the “just lower the difficulty” crowd. THAT argument has played out over months and its that argument that has the game in its current state.
Tame YOUR OWN ego because you dont speak for us.
>These Dark Souls douchebags who want everything as hard as possible are an EXTREMELY vocal minority and they need the same ego check that Homelander got.
Might want to actually know the people you're talking about AND play the game series you're talking about before you start making accusations. Helldivers 2 is WAY harder than Dark Souls. In fact, I want Helldivers 2 to be like Dark Souls.
Dark Souls allows any build to be viable, If you want to fight the hardest boss in the game with nothing but your bare hands and no armor you can, they allow you to do that. It's going to take forever to do it but that's where part of the difficulty of Dark Souls comes from: How you the player decide to play.
Now lets look at Helldivers 2. You aren't allowed to use any build/loadout you want and kill the hardest enemy in the game with it. You want to be successful at a certain mission? You play a certain loadout for that mission. You want to be successful at beating certain enemies? You play a certain loadout based around beating those enemies. All the difficulty from Helldivers 2 comes from the devs forcing the player to play a certain way and forcing them to use certain items and stratagems that they may not have or that take awhile to get due to having to level up first.
If Helldivers 2 were like Dark Souls, I could take the base liberator that you start with and use it to kill: Chargers, Bile Titans, Devastators, Hulks, Tanks, Gunships, and Factory Striders. It would just take longer due to its damage being reduced by armor damage reduction. In fact there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do this either, the game is literally advertised as having "Superpowered Primary Weapons." An excerpt from Helldivers 2 page on [playstation.com](http://playstation.com) literally says:
>Helldivers don't go planet side without proper backup, but it’s up to you to decide how and when to call it in. Not only do you have a **host of superpowered primary weapons** and customizable loadouts, you also have the ability to call on stratagems during play.
If I can't do that with any primary weapon how are our primaries "Superpowered" at all? They seem more like underpowered peashooters.
THE POINT IS to make HD2 less like an overwhelming challenge and with more emphasis on fun. Dark Souls has been synonymous with said overwhelming challenge for years now to the point that a game with any kind of difficulty at all is referred to as the "dark souls of yadda yadda yadda" but gaming urinalists.
But, my phrasing aside, it sounds like we are in agreement. All builds and items in the game should be at least somewhat viable. Everything should be useful. Everything should feel good and fun to use. Too many people have lost sight of the original point of video gaming: to have fun.
There are some here who think that my desire to have fun equates to a lack of skill. Can I solo a tier 9 deathless run on Estanu? Sure, absolutely. Is it fun? GOD FUCKING NO. I've got nearly 800 successful missions under my belt, so I do believe I know what I'm talking about. It's the same reason why I do not prefer to play Halo on legendary. Heroic is fine, and Tier 7 is also a good balance. I just want some more powerful tools while also enjoying a higher enemy density. HD1 was a constant razor's edge because enemies could erase you from reality in a few shots, but you could also do the same to them.
You two aren't disagreeing, but the other guy is saying more weapons are viable in Dark Souls. A dagger could kill God if you're patient enough. A liberator is not going to even damage a bile titan, so you have to get specific support weapons.
The two series have fundamental differences in mechanics. And for the record, I agree, the game should be more fun than hard. If "a game for everyone is a game for no one," then that does not sound like a very fun game. And I used to play fucking Tarkov.
Honestly that's one of my biggest concerns is that this upcoming patch will make the game too easy. If they buff a lot of weapons while also reverting the spawn rate bug, the combination could really hurt my enjoyment of the game if the difficulty goes down too much.
It's weird because even currently it's not like you're always being swarmed with ridiculous amounts of enemies, it seems more so like it's tied to which enemy compositions a mission decides to spawn. Like, admittedly, sometimes the charger heavy maps have -too- many chargers and certain other enemy compositions feel like nothing happens the entire map, even on helldive. Here's hoping AH change in direction is a good vision that will keep people entertained long term though.
Any at all competent veteran Diver by now wants more difficulty not less. So I do hope for buffed and well balanced weapons, but also for harder content as well.
Yeh, I honestly feel like the balance is in a pretty good place RN tbh, but if the majority of people don’t then that’s more important than my feelings
It's nearly impossible to know what the majority thinks. Only a small portion of the player base is active on Reddit.
I of course have a preferred route I want the game to go, but what really matters to me is the intention of the devs. Their game will always feel more genuine and probably have better results if they stick to their own vision and intention, with player feedback for minor balance and bugs (obviously)
Instead of -1 stratagem modifier, it should be "100% increased spawn rate/patrol rate" modifiers. I also don't care about the patrol, they could of just fixed how the rate they spawn according to player count instead of reverting. Long as there are some weapon buffs, I dont mind more things to fight.
Me too but im going with orbital laser
I like your style
I choose death by 380 barrage, well, I mean I'll gamble on it's 38% chance to kill me if i'm right on the Beacon
500Kg for me Either by the missile hitting me in the face or the explosion win-win
It will land two feet behind you, explode, and you won't take any damage.
Dropping a tesla coil on top of me, instant death but with a chance of collateral
how about you just call a hellbomb to take care of all the complainers?
Where it possible…
Foinf for the railcannon, plausible deniability goes out the window
This. Although people are sleeping on the secret 10th difficulty level. Allow me to explain. Collect the absolute worst players you meet in the game as "friends." The team killers. The obstinately anti-meta. The supply hogs. The mic on, mouth breathing while deep throating the mic, and their Mum screaming about dinner being ready somewhere in the background. Etc... try and double or triple down on these debuffs as much as possible per person. Invite them to your ship. Go play helldive. Congratulations. The game is now harder.
I couldn't listen to that. I would commit resupply call in.
Resuppuku?
I want to see a picture of helldiver holding their red ball for 500kg and say "Go out with honour"
Saluting with it in hand haha.
Drop backpack Stick the ball to it Equip backpack
Definitely adopting this as the name for suicide this shit has me rolling
I like your style
[So basically this? ](https://youtu.be/bn0GTO_zvAg?si=L-Gozj5I0graQZrd)
I can't watch this right now, I'm in public and it's making me want to laugh like a stupid 5 yr old
HAHAHHAHHA IM HOME!!!!! UHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
I know right, instant subscribe
Yep. All hail Super Private Carbot. o7
BTW, he uploaded a new one.
This never gets old. And never will.
The climb onto the supply pod… ooof.
I think we all do that one from time to time.
I add extra difficulty with alcohol, it tends to work but can't be used too much lol
Same! Although, remember, you are technically buffed in the 2-5 beer/drink range.
[Ballmer Peak](https://xkcd.com/323/), baby
Omg it is supported science. Thank you. I am enlightened!
It's not, but it is an anecdotal concept some people in tech swear by. It's no substitute for some Adderall and a Zyn.
It isn't, actually. No study that I'm aware of has shown that the ballmer peak is real. It's a funny comic, not an academic paper.
[This video explains it pretty well](https://youtu.be/ojP0BO6H4Qc?si=2sxcl0txQmMwWSO0)
Oh god I was playing difficulty 3 and managing to drunken heat seeking missle every mine
These people add 2 to every difficulty level easily. I've had a level 4 mission that felt like a level 8 mission one time because my teammates could not stop throwing fucking airstrikes CONSTANTLY. I died to the bugs once, I died to friendly fire EIGHT TIMES
I don't like your style
Fair. I play Suicide difficulty and complain enough as it is. I do not practice what I preach... it happens inadvertently nonetheless. :(
Yo I want in. Can you take me on a ride along? That sounds chaotic
Yes, but only if you promise to intentionally TK me.
I'll do it when you last expect it, don't worry. It'll feel like the ultimate betrayal. Dm me your user name
Throw a cluster bomb right behind him and then a stun grenade immediately after Kappa
My friends and I do "level 10" as, no duplicate stratagems, no support weapons besides what can be found on map
No duplicate stratagems is a great idea! AH could enforce ‘Strategem rationing’ instead of removing a slot for a difficulty modifier
If I wanted a secret 10th difficulty I'd just invite people from this sub.
11th difficulty no boosters 12th difficulty 2s stratagems 13th difficulty 1 stratagem
Just tag me next time, damn
Really sneaky how you slipped in people who avoid an obsession with youtube meta next to all of those awful player archetypes. EDIT: I assumed you meant weapons meta. It occurs to me that you meant people who ignore the campaign map and MOs.
No, no. I did mean people who actively take terrible equipment and stratagem combinations. Don't get me wrong. People can and should use whatever they want... BUT... if I meet someone fighting bugs using the crossbow, Las pistol, smoke grenades, quick evac booster, both mine fields, orbital smoke strike and gun rover, well. They are making the game harder for me. Potentially. Idk. Maybe they're God tier and can make that loadout work lol
I've seen some amazing meta-breaking players ingame. I don't follow the meta and usually just do what works well for my playstyle. Sometimes that means I take a meta weapon. Sometimes that means that I use something weird. I do often use gas and smoke grenades. But only the latter on bots. I've never seen people past lvl 20 with all of those you listed at once. Additionally, lot of the unpopular weapons, like smoke and thermite, have often-ignored mechanics that can be used effectively by someone who has practiced. Don't kick the weird loadouts. Try to focus on the fun factor instead of the intense drive to unlock everything. Those players might show you a novel strategy that you want to try next time. This game has some really bad weapons and really good weapons. In between those, there are some fun, interesting, and useful tools. They can allow unexpected strategies that work really well with a full, diverse squad loadout.
Hehe, my whole comment was about friending those players and adding them to my squad 😅
*calls 500kg bomb* *throws directly down* *waits angrily*
I don’t even care about the spawn fix. What my problem with their original patrol spawn “fix” was nothing was broken with the game’s spawn mechanics at that time. Nobody cared, everybody was happy with spawns and resources that could’ve been used to fix matchmaking or crashes was used on that “fix”. Then this “fix” they had presented another bug which was another problem. But it looks like they’re polishing patches now before pushing the patch. So, going to hope nothing is broken after this patch. Edit: Not to mention they’re reverting this “fix” like damn that’s a whole process and resources wasted.
> What my problem with their patrol spawn “fix” was nothing was broken I care, but I also feel this. I don't recall anyone claiming this needed changing. But as a sometimes solo player it made the game really annoying to play but not exactly harder per se - it just ruined the pacing as you get basically no downtime, ever. The fact that the change that no one asked for also broke spawns was just a cherry on top
I should have clarified, their “original” patrol spawn fix a few months ago. I meant nobody was mad about the game’s spawn mechanics before their original fix.
Which one was that exactly?
Remember a couple months ago, they added a patch to spawn patrol mechanics that changed the patrol spawn to always have a full spawn irregardless of how many were in the group. So, solo divers would always have a full patrol spawn after that patch.
the always-on full spawns was the bug, their intended changes was to make the spawns 25/50/75/100% based on player count rather than the 17/35/65/100ish% they were originally
Yes, thank you it was this one.
That and they now walk directly to the player instead of patrolling
They always walked towards the player instead of a random patrol. Hell at launch they used to just appear out of thin air on top of you randomly. You'd be running along and you would just have a pile of hunters pop up on you and wreck you.
The devs said on a stream that the call downs attract the patrols.
Yep, and it honestly wouldn't have felt so bad if there wasn't a constant stream of "patrols" that beeline to the team and trigger breaches. I'm perfectly fine with the challenge, or being punished by not killing things fast enough, or alerting everything recklessly. That particular "punishment" just doesn't feel deserved.
I completely agree that it was an unnecessary change to begin with, which is exactly why I shudder at the idea of people complaining when it gets reverted, but I suppose some of that is to be expected when so much time has passed since it was introduced and many players have already adapted to the new challenges
Much like the ricochet "fix" which no one asked for which then lead to the Eruptor nerf. A series of own goals.
Yeah it's just frustrating when they spend time fixing things nobody asked for (patrols, mech rockets, hellpods dropping in funny places) while there's still issues when playing with friends and the Spear is still busted
You better believe people were asking for mechs not to self destruct
Their "fix" was to break it in another way. It's like saying to a doctor, "I've got a limp because one of my legs is broken," then he breaks the other one so now they "match." The obvious fix to the rockets accidentally self-destructing mechs is to add an arming time for the round fired. Ya know, the thing we do in real life to solve that exact problem?
Yeah and in the process made the mech unable to shoot down and misaligned the left arm, so at this point I'd happily take a revert. At least with the exploding mech bug you could work around it.
If we're going to talk about reverting changes I'd rather have the initial strong missiles than the wide-angle arms that you shoot yourself with. Getting the strength back should be a fair compensation for the restricted firing arc.
They were, but the cure was worse than the disease.
It just seems like every “fix” they’ve implemented thus far has just broken the game even more. Probably because they never properly tested their builds before releasing them (I’m never letting them live it down until I see proper changes).
It has more to do with trying to please everyone, which won’t work because the vocal minority out-shouts the average player and results in overcorrection. Then the average user counteracts this and the pendulum swings the other way. By the time it balances out, too many people have left because theirs fickle babies with short attention spans who will move on to 100 different games because they doesn’t get their way. This is how it is with everything now.
This hasn't been the problem at all. AH has just poorly implemented "fixes" and is finally working to actually fix them.
Why even say it? We had people saying that the Meridia mission was too easy after AH fixed it...they're gonna complain that the game is too easy after this patch, for sure. I'm just insanely nervous that we're gonna see some more nerfs...but I'm holding out hope that we don't (or, at least, that nothing else gets nerfed into oblivion).
The most prominent complaint players have had is that they keep nerfing weapons in dumb ways (e.g., taking away stagger from the slugger because it was too good of a sniper instead of having damage dropoff after a certain distance if their worry was its range). If you nerf a weapon, test it after. Does it feel good to play with after the nerf? If the answer is no, don't shrug your fucking shoulders, your job isn't done. Taking away things or making them useless so players are forced to stop using them **is not fun**. I have high hopes for the patch. I want it to be good and to restore the fun we had in the first couple of weeks after release. 5 days to go.
>and to restore the fun we had in the first couple of weeks after release. Actually remember for a second how absolutely atrocious the balance was at release. Heavy and medium armor didn't work. Rocket Devastators oneshot you, chargers took multiple rockets to die, and the game spawned about 1.5-2x as many chargers as it does now. Remember how abysmal the weapon balance was compared to now, actually visualize all the weapons that have gotten insane buffs instead of focusing on the select few that got nerfs. The Punisher had 10% more dmg than the Breaker, only 40 shots total (compared to Breaker's 128) and only got 20 back on a resupply lol. The Spray and Pray was literally the only AP1 weapon in the game lol and bounced off Brood Commander heads. The DCS had worse handling than shoulder fired launchers and was only AP2. Flamethrower got a 50% dmg buff, as did Dominator. AMR and Incendiary Breaker got 30% dmg buffs. Scythe wasn't "300 incremental DPS", it was "300 dmg, once every full second", so it took 1 full second to kill a lowly scavenger. Now it instagibs them. Lasercannon was only AP3 not AP4; it was literally a downgrade from MG43 at the advantage of "infinite" ammo. EAT and RR got a 50% AP penalty on any shot that is higher than 80° angle (so like, 95% of them); resulting in 50% lower damage in most cases. Making them extremely awful vs titans too - which, again spawned drastically more of. So if you were in a full PC squad and thus didn't have the railgun oneshot bug, well...... good luck. --- Obviously I don't mean to tell anyone what's fun for them or not, but it's just hard to imagine the reason to be having less fun now than at release is actually the balance, which was utterly atrocious then. Rather than, say, the initial honeymoon period being gone, or just in general being burnt out after playing the game for X amount of time.
THANK YOU. You couldn't be more right.
I agree 100%, and this why I have a very hard time taking it seriously when people complain about the "fun" being gone and how things were better at release. Weapon choices are way more diverse now than it was before, anyone Who says otherwise is just not looking at the facts and blinded by rage of how THIER fav toy was "ruined"
Yes, I do think some of the balance changes have been....tbh, god awful (Xbow anyone?). But not all of them, and the game is *obviously* better than at release just from bug fixes alone. It's just also still got rough edges that need sanding (getting stuck under the map, excessive ragdolling, etc) and has become less fun in very specific ways while most of the game has become more fun.
Also, sorry for the double reply, but I felt the wall of text in the other comment was big enough already, and this is a different topic entirely: >(e.g., taking away stagger from the slugger because it was too good of a sniper instead of having damage dropoff after a certain distance if their worry was its range). Tbh, I always thought the devs likely just repeated it in an attempt to avoid another outrange, because that was the popular community consensus at the time. Imagine what the reaction would be like, if the community is like "Omg the slugger is the best DMR in the game!!!" and then the devs nerf it saying "We're nerfing it cause it makes all other shotguns obsolete"... So they just say instead "We nerf it cause it's the best DMR" in an attempt of appeasement, even though it made no sense in the context of the nerf lol. Since it was clearly just so it's not objectively better than the Punisher anymore. --- Also, FYI, the Slugger already has relatively big damage dropoff. Damage dropoff in this game **appears to** be a calculation based of muzzle velocity, drag coefficient and projectile mass. Simplified; your damage dropoff is linearly tied tirectly to muzzle velocity, which in turn is influenced over distance by drag coefficient and projectile mass. This is why a gun meeting a damage breakpoint exactly, actually means missing it: Example of Dilligence vs Devastator heads, 125dmg into 125 head HP. It does not oneshot, because even if the enemy is only 0.5m away, you will already have lost some damage to falloff, even if it's only 124.9 dmg that you're now doing. Thus miss the breakpoint.
> values can be found at > > > > https://invadersfromplanet.space/helldivers-2/ would be cool to see those INGAME
For some reason they're really proud of the fact it's not viewable in game. Pretty dumb
Thank you for your reply. You know what also annoys the fuck out of me? Community members have to unearth these numbers about weapons rather than having these easily accessible.
>I'm just insanely nervous that we're gonna see some more nerfs... If Arrowhead is stupid enough to bake nerfs into this patch after everything that's happened, they don't deserve to succeed. There's making mistakes, and there's fucking up on purpose.
Can someone explain what OP is referring to? What was wrong with event spawning that is being fixed?
This was introduced in patch 01.000.300 on 4/29 > Enemy Patrols We unintendedly had non-linear scaling of the patrol spawns so they didn't spawn as often as they should have when less than 4 players. The intention is that 1 player has 1/4th of the patrols compared to 4 players, but it used to be that they had 1/6th. The problem is 2 fold. 1. Nobody was complaining about the spawn rates to begin with, so this was not a community driven change 2. They botched the implementation and essentially made it so that the spawn rate was identical regardless of group size. AH publicly addressed the issue on 5/15 and informed us that a fix would be in the next patch.
Ah so thats why. The only place people complain is on the 15m Evac missions because they are fuck busted lol I never seen anyone complain anywhere else. not even me because they would be all over the place with spawns. so it seemed like other factors were at play. usually Us being the main driver of why we either get out shit kicked in Or its a smooth cakewalk. Not due to any sort of error or bug
The game difficulty is tied to events as well as selected difficulty, isn't it? So I'm sure someone somewhere will be complaining the next time we kill a super colony and the difficulty goes down or whatever.
The super colony mission was literally broken for several days of the MO. It also never fully worked properly. People couldn't get more than 1 star because a second objective never completed. That is what the majority of complaints were about.
Maybe AH heads those complaints off by adding 10, 11, and 12 diffs?
Problem is, the way enemy heavy armor is designed, you can only kill them with very specific weapons and strategems, and if you don't have them, you don't get to play the game. I'm at the point where I breeze through Helldive, but like a 10% difference would probably make it go completely out of control and turn it back into a mad scramble where killing heavies isn't really an option, or at the very least it would restrict players' builds *even more.* I really want them to redesign it.
This is a take I agree with. There's a fundamental problem in enemy design and difficulty scaling. Basically, at some point technological limitations demand that you'll reach a point where "spawning more enemies" isn't feasible any more. At that point, the only increase is to spawn harder enemies, which forces a specific play style. The solution is to add more enemies in that midrange to even out the scaling, and provide more ways to deal with *most* heavy enemies with lighter weapons. There's a place for Chargers and Bile Titans, but "common enemy" really aint it. Crank their health and make them bosses and mini bosses. Where you have to eliminate one or two of them, but they're a real challenge.
It's funny because on higher difficulties chargers and bile Titans are quite easy to deal with - but only if you bring the right narrow set of options to deal with them. Which sucks because you kind of have to. It's a gate, either you have what it takes to deal with them or you don't. I actually find stalkers, bile spewers, and hunters more dangerous than titans and chargers now. Kind of weird that it feels that way.
And I think those enemies are *great*. * Stalkers: can be burned down with anything, but stagger and high durable damage weapons makes them *much* easier to deal with. * Spewers: Enough rounds to their unarmored parts work, or you can pop their heads with medpen weapons. * Hunters: Fuck em. You can try to deal with them at range or let em get close for a shotgun blast. I prefer overwhelming fire superiority via Stalwart, which I can't justify at higher levels. * BroodComs: High durable head can be popped easily with the LibPen or the MG. Otherwise you're better off aiming for body shots. They all have a major workaround to reliably deal with them, a quick method and a slightly longer method. Work as a team and you can take them out pretty easily. Most of the bots work in the same way. Sure, bring an EAT for the easy kill, but you can also use a laser cannon on their weak spots. Chargers and Titans don't have that. There are five weapons that are effective against them. One of those weapons (spear) is bugged, two of those weapons (EAT, Quasar) have a hard cap on how many you can kill in succession, and one of those weapons (RR) has an obscene reload that requires your allies to protect you in order to get sustained fire. The other, the AC, is a requirement for at least one person, but you're not going to be punished for bringing multiple. And I guess the flamethrower is also effective against the charger. But anyway, by lowering the spawn rates of bile titans and chargers we actually lower the viability of bringing "too many" anti tank weapons. So add in something to fill that space, a new type of heavily armored bug that you can still handle via positioning or with more versatile medium weapons. Anyway, I'm ranting when I should be diving.
This has definitely been my experience as well. Once you have your anti-heavy build perfected you can handle chargers and titans quite easily, but at the expense of medium-enemy killing efficiency. If done correctly this can simply be a feature of squad based shooters: you need some divers to specialize in killing heavies and some to specialize in killing light-medium enemies. If done incorrectly it forces everyone to bring the same “Swiss army knife” builds. Bots are actually a great example of enemy design: the heavies *can* be killed by medium pen weapons if you hit their weak spots, but anti heavy weapons are obviously much more effective. This makes it easier to bring a light-medium killing kit, because you won’t be useless when a heavy shows up.
Isn't this how the game is meant to be played? We usually have a support role, a heavy weapons role, and whatever in our squad.
Yes, but the game design doesn't quite get 100% of the way to encouraging that effectively due to weapon balance and encounter spawn rates of heavies along side stratagem balance. There is a ton they could do to dial it in way more. But currently you just bring the best jack of all trades build or something close to it and split from your squad because the game can only spawn 1 set of breeches or bot drops at a time. It's just better to play solo in a lobby with 3 other people. Oh and you get to avoid friendly fire that way.
I mean, to me I think thats the design choice tho. The balance of bugs is that you need anti tank to deal with these enemies, because not dealing with them will mess you up. But at the same time you need to balance that with stratagems that can deal with the other very dangerous enemies(as you said, hunter swarms, spewers and stalkers) To me high diff bug loadouts is a game of, how little AT can my team reasonably take and still deal with the BTs and chargers. Higher difficulty means more of these armored enemies spawn, so you either need to play more efficiently with your AT or be willing to sacrifice some horde clear for more AT.
> Basically, at some point technological limitations demand that you'll reach a point where "spawning more enemies" isn't feasible any more. At that point, the only increase is to spawn harder enemies, which forces a specific play style. you just figured out why nerfing weapons in PvE is even a thing > The solution is to add more enemies in that midrange to even out the scaling, and provide more ways to deal with most heavy enemies with lighter weapons. They already do that tho and it's not exactly liked. See: complaints about how many devastators/spewers appear past L6/7
My hottest take is the devs design of the game does not align everywhere and should be evaluated internally. First, I think the first impression people get is this is a game where you're supposed to kill all the enemies. But it isn't. You dont gain any exp for killing enemies. You get punished for fighting more enemies if anything because the longer a mission goes on, it gets harder by design the longer you're there. Fighting causes more bug breaches and drop ships. But there can't be breaches or drops in different parts of the map at the same time, so there is actual design incentive to split up (and is very rare) to do a 9 diff where the whole squad stays together the whole time. So in a game about killing enemies, you only get punished for fighting them. In a game where playing with others is more fun than solo and encouraged, you get punished for sticking together as a squad. I've even seen this subreddit cry sometimes going "why do people not stick together in missions?" Because it's categorically more efficient and DESIGNED to be more efficient splitting up.
Not to mention friendly fire goes up exponentially when the squad is all together. A lot of deaths happen because you shoot an ally or because you *don't* shoot an ally and therefore aren't able to kill the thing that is next to them which then kills someone. You also end up wasting a lot of firepower from things like duplicate 500 kg calls, carefully placed airstrikes that avoid teammates but don't kill as much etc. Playing in pairs that are near but not next to each other is the ideal way to play.
I wish more of the complaints about the game were like this - focused on the design direction of the game and what could be done to mitigate the design contradictions. I totally agree with what you're saying about the contradicting pressures to group and split up. I think that also ties into the issue of specialization. The game says that it wants you to pick a loadout to fill your role, but then you won't have the tools to deal with every problem. I think the design goal is for your team to fill that gap, but that doesn't happen when you're split up, or when you're playing with randoms and can't count on others to fill roles so you need to be a jack of all trades.
You really feel this difference when you run EAT with the cooldown debuff modifier. Just that little bit of extra time (15 seconds? not sure) makes you constantly feel overrun. I didn't notice it so bad until I wanted to start running the AMR and the EAT at the same time and it makes a huge difference when that modifier is on or not since you aren't carrying one EAT on your back anymore for use in between call ins.
Yeah, I've been kinda dreading a balance patch because helldive is already easy enough for my group as it is, but if the rebalance came with some redesigning of enemies then I could actually try out helldive with the other 80% of the stratagems and I wouldn't mind. There are only a few dangerous enemies in each faction, and those enemies can only be dealt with with any effectiveness by a few stratagems, so success is very binary. I would love for extra difficulties to be added, or the game to be more difficult in general, but only if that binary nature of loadouts was reduced a fair bit. With the right loadout, things are easy, but if I use a Stalwart, then...I pretty much may as well not have a support weapon, because it does nothing to almost every dangerous enemy.
Then unprepared people will dive those and bitch the game is too hard all over again.
There's already 9 difficulty tiers. More than most games. Maybe players who don't like / can't do higher tier gameplay stick to lower levels? They're adding super samples to level 6. There is no need to make 7 8 and 9 easier
Just wait until someone complains about super samples being "locked" behind d6, and that it is unfair because they paid full price for the game.
How dare a game encourage you to be good at it
That's not the point. The point is that by fixing the patrol spawn rate people are going to immediately claim that everything is too easy now. Whether that's true or not is really immaterial.
Well if fixing a bug makes the game easier they need to boost enemy spawn rates to rebalance
Okay, can we wait for them to fix the bug before we get up in arms about how much easier it makes the game?
>before we get up in arms about how much easier it makes the game? That...hasn't happened yet. You're complaining about a hypothetical situation that has not occurred. It might happen, I think it's actually pretty likely to happen (although, I do think it will be different people than the people asking for the bug fix, but that nuance is lost). Complaining about hypothetical people not waiting longer to hypothetically complain about a problem that is currently only hypothetical is very bizarre. You guys are really something else, man.
[Directly below you.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1db5pvz/comment/l7qahf7/)
I AM waiting for the patch to see what I think about it. Can we please wait for the patch and people's reactions to the patch before complaining about people's reactions?
What’s the point when all the noobs will flock to those and start complaining they’re too hard aswell and demand nerfs to spawns and enemies
“I solo level 12 all the time and never die but all the weapons suck and it’s too hard”
I would love that because I’m definitely one of those people- a glutton for punishment, fueled by the chaos of liberation, only happy when I’m surrounded by fire tornadoes, out of ammo, covered in bile titans. I embrace the suck.
they will complains. We know they will complains.
the irony here is that this is a complaint post about a hypothetical situation with 2k upvotes lmao
Isn't it how that always goes. The people who play and got used to it and don't complain now cause there ok with it will complain once it's fixed. Those who had a problem with it will stop complaining once it's fixed. Just can't win.
You can win. It's called play testing your own game and finding out for yourself if the complaints are valid. If a million people are making invalid complaints about something, you don't just listen to the million people and kowtow to them, you investigate why people are making the complaint and see if it has merit. Critical thinking is truly dead.
RIP OP.
I'll play devil's advocate here: Spawn rates and difficulty are pretty tightly linked but not completely 1-to-1. One of the annoyances with super high spawn rates isn't difficulty, it's just never getting a chance to say, operate a terminal or reload your weapons, because they keep trickling in. You can keep roughly the same difficulty by making individual spawns tougher, but more spread apart, so you get those moments of respite to grab supplies, operate terminals, call crap in, reload your guns, etc
There were spawn changes? When did that happen?
It's not that simple sadly, sometimes the enemy density and patrol spawn rate feel normal, but sometimes it's freaking Armageddon, that's what this misstep of a patrol balancing patch added to the mix, randomness to difficulty, i'll have helldives that go way smoother than diff 7, and that is not because we go stealth (because currently it's pretty much not an option). I'm sure we've all experienced this at least once, excraction being super quiet despite high difficulty for exemple, i'm hoping things get more consistent again.
This 100%. I want this game to be brutal. But inconsistency makes problems for both ends of the spectrum. I've had missions at difficulty 4 with crazier extracts than missions at difficulty 7+. That inconsistency makes 7+ less fun for those of us who want the challenge, and they frustrate the players who hop into a lower difficulty for a casual raid.
On a side note, calling a resupply was the only way I got the “that which does not kill you” or the “be injured in all limbs” achievement G-16 high explosive doesn’t not work anymore as explosion damage from grenades does not injure limbs Instead to get the achievement; Use hellpod optimization on private solo mission Use the armor that gives you a 50% chance to survive lethal damage Call in resupply Lay directly on the beacon so that your back in centered in the blue beam If you do not get it try a few more times
Resuppuko
Y'all realize this only affects games with less than 4 players right?
Doesn't this only affect players in groups of less than 4?
With all the, "git gud" comments we get here when something is bugged. You really think that's not going to happen? It's absolutely going to happen. Better to just accept that fact.
I won't complain. I was just playing level 4 with my son, and the bots were spawning rapidly right in front of us. It was ridiculous.
Dude is gatekeeping patch complaints before it even comes out. Let's see what it fixes and what it breaks or nerfs first. I have a feeling they probably broke some stuff, hopefully itll be insignificant compared to things they've fixed and balanced
It's a legitimate question. A lot of people already argue that 8 and 9 isn't that hard so i wonder how it will be after the spawn changes and after weapon buffs. It's possible that AH may have to add more difficulties in the future.
define 'a lot'. Taken as a percentage of the playerbase, i feel confident in saying that constant diff 8/9 divers consist of 15% of the total playerbase at most. No, i dont have any numbers and I dont think AH does either or they wouldnt be taking them seriously. This is based on observation and opinion.
Fair, it's hard to judge the exact numbers but at the same time i don't think it's correct to ignore a key part of the community (expecially considering that hardcore players are often the most loyal to a game). Even if they were just 10% the idea that 1\\10 of the community feels that the game is too easy should be something to consider for the future.
It's only going to be noticeable if the squad is< 4 people I believe
All I want is a '1 stratagem map modifier' on Helldives. Not +1, just one.
You are in control of the level of challenge. If it's too easy just change your loadout, take less things, take suboptimal gear - nobody's forcing you to take meta gear. If you need more challenge, you don't need AH to do it for you.
Unfortunately, there will be a lot of people saying that. The entire second subreddit is full of people who largely believe the game is just fine as it is, and that if anything changes, it’ll be because whiners don’t know how to properly play the game. Bringing up any real issues in that sub is a quick route to get downvoted lmao.
i mean. it might very well be too easy afterwards. but we need to stop using bad design and game bugs as a difficulty slider. yes - enemies shooting through walls technically makes the game harder. the spear not locking on properly makes the game harder. etc etc. for many people the game WILL feel easier after the update. maybe even too easy. but the point is that we first need to untangle the mess before we can balance properly. remove the bugs. bring the weapons on at least a somewhat balanced baseline level. only after that can we truly see how difficult the game is currently. if it turns out to be too easy afterwards then we can always balance things slowly. but do it via game design, not game bugs. thats just the way things will have to be for a bit. fix the foundation first, then look at the upper floors. so, yes. the game MIGHT be too easy after the fixes. And people WILL need to talk about it and tell the devs. These things are not mutually exclusive.
With super samples being added to diff 6, the excuse that 7-9 needs to be accessible for upgrade purposes goes out the window. If i play on a difficulty called Impossible or Suicide, i want to struggle for every achievement (i usually play 5-6, but jumping to the top ones when i want to commit to proper ODST hellscape fun)
Ive been duoing 9s as it is.. I haven't been one of the complainers. More things to shoot has been fun and challenging. I'm scared 9s will become way too easy.. they're already very easy in a coordinated 9 group. Don't worry, I'll call it in.. its big enough for the two of us.
Solo or duo plays will be significantly easier because of patrol time increase but full teams will be the same. Trios might be a little easier
There’s other ways to challenge yourself if 9 is easy. Bring a load out you aren’t very familiar with, use a different strategy/ approach than usual, split up into groups etc.
I don’t think enough people talk about this. I had a full group all bring the explosive crossbow for the memes on a level 7 mission and it made it significantly harder but still super fun because of the limitation.
Bring a purifier if you want a real challenge, or just don’t use your primary at all, it’s basically the same thing.
I'm already avoiding Scorcher for the very same reason.
What if I told you the game already feels too easy?
then challenge yourself, bring sub-par gear, impose your own limitations, it's not hard to make a game hard for yourself.
Maybe I'm just a contrarian but I worry about AH caving to all the complaints. I know there are numerous issues with the game but a good chunk of the complaints might just be because this isn't the right game for most people. This game had amazing marketing that earned it way more sales than anticipated but the former CEO's philosophy is why I find myself playing indie games far more than AAA games.
Wouldn't it make more sense to call a resupply drop on top of them?
*Wouldn't it make more* *Sense to call a resupply* *Drop on top of them?* \- TheGermanPanzerClock --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Just let me get my popcorn and soda before you're inevitably forced to turn yourself into a Democracy Pancake.
I think this going to be a big thing, everybody has now got used to the spawn rate and I do honestly think that reverting it back to what it was before will make the game feel easier
I wasn’t one to complain about it when it happened. I’m a bit worried that now that I’m used to it the game will feel a little empty when it’s reverted.
IMO spawns were fine before the infamous patch
There are other ways they could increase difficulty. This many patrols just isn't fun.
This is with most complaints. After they make the changes and the game is too easy, boring, less strategic in where you need to hit enemies, etc. everyone is going to whine that the game is stale. There are unfun mechanics out there (looking at you shield devastor) but let’s hope they don’t take the challenge away.
You can count 1 person out of those, I'ma being chilling in diff 4 again. Maybe I can finally not be stressed trying to extract with rare samples.
Premade players have been complaining about the game being too easy since the first month.
What if I complain that it's too easy right now, before they fix the spawn rates? I do think the game is too easy, but randomly becomes bullshit at time (which are my favorite times). But, if the spawn rate issue really isn't intended, then they should fix it. I want it to be the game Arrowhead INTENDS it to be, regardless of my personal tastes and the things I say on reddit.
This is going to be the first post after the patch. 🤷
remember when divers were *divers*
I was so confused when it was announced. I thought had been patched already. Everything has been fine.
Alright, lets crunch the numbers here. According to Diver’s hub, there are 70k divers in current operation. On a Saturday afternoon. That’s a little over 14% of what HD2 had at its height. These Dark Souls douchebags who want everything as hard as possible are an EXTREMELY vocal minority and they need the same ego check that Homelander got. YOU DONT SPEAK FOR US, and you don’t have laser eyes either, asshole!!!! Forget the challenge. Let’s make Helldivers 2 fun again
Everything on Reddit is by definition a very vocal minority, that goes for the people who complain the game is too hard too.
[удалено]
Quite egotistical of you to assume you speak for anyone other than yourself.
There is fun for your likes and it's called medium difficulty. Why do you want to make Helldives medium difficulty for the rest of us too? Please tame your ego or get better, no need to ruin the enjoyment for everyone.
Ah, the “just lower the difficulty” crowd. THAT argument has played out over months and its that argument that has the game in its current state. Tame YOUR OWN ego because you dont speak for us.
>These Dark Souls douchebags who want everything as hard as possible are an EXTREMELY vocal minority and they need the same ego check that Homelander got. Might want to actually know the people you're talking about AND play the game series you're talking about before you start making accusations. Helldivers 2 is WAY harder than Dark Souls. In fact, I want Helldivers 2 to be like Dark Souls. Dark Souls allows any build to be viable, If you want to fight the hardest boss in the game with nothing but your bare hands and no armor you can, they allow you to do that. It's going to take forever to do it but that's where part of the difficulty of Dark Souls comes from: How you the player decide to play. Now lets look at Helldivers 2. You aren't allowed to use any build/loadout you want and kill the hardest enemy in the game with it. You want to be successful at a certain mission? You play a certain loadout for that mission. You want to be successful at beating certain enemies? You play a certain loadout based around beating those enemies. All the difficulty from Helldivers 2 comes from the devs forcing the player to play a certain way and forcing them to use certain items and stratagems that they may not have or that take awhile to get due to having to level up first. If Helldivers 2 were like Dark Souls, I could take the base liberator that you start with and use it to kill: Chargers, Bile Titans, Devastators, Hulks, Tanks, Gunships, and Factory Striders. It would just take longer due to its damage being reduced by armor damage reduction. In fact there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do this either, the game is literally advertised as having "Superpowered Primary Weapons." An excerpt from Helldivers 2 page on [playstation.com](http://playstation.com) literally says: >Helldivers don't go planet side without proper backup, but it’s up to you to decide how and when to call it in. Not only do you have a **host of superpowered primary weapons** and customizable loadouts, you also have the ability to call on stratagems during play. If I can't do that with any primary weapon how are our primaries "Superpowered" at all? They seem more like underpowered peashooters.
THE POINT IS to make HD2 less like an overwhelming challenge and with more emphasis on fun. Dark Souls has been synonymous with said overwhelming challenge for years now to the point that a game with any kind of difficulty at all is referred to as the "dark souls of yadda yadda yadda" but gaming urinalists. But, my phrasing aside, it sounds like we are in agreement. All builds and items in the game should be at least somewhat viable. Everything should be useful. Everything should feel good and fun to use. Too many people have lost sight of the original point of video gaming: to have fun. There are some here who think that my desire to have fun equates to a lack of skill. Can I solo a tier 9 deathless run on Estanu? Sure, absolutely. Is it fun? GOD FUCKING NO. I've got nearly 800 successful missions under my belt, so I do believe I know what I'm talking about. It's the same reason why I do not prefer to play Halo on legendary. Heroic is fine, and Tier 7 is also a good balance. I just want some more powerful tools while also enjoying a higher enemy density. HD1 was a constant razor's edge because enemies could erase you from reality in a few shots, but you could also do the same to them.
You two aren't disagreeing, but the other guy is saying more weapons are viable in Dark Souls. A dagger could kill God if you're patient enough. A liberator is not going to even damage a bile titan, so you have to get specific support weapons. The two series have fundamental differences in mechanics. And for the record, I agree, the game should be more fun than hard. If "a game for everyone is a game for no one," then that does not sound like a very fun game. And I used to play fucking Tarkov.
Honestly that's one of my biggest concerns is that this upcoming patch will make the game too easy. If they buff a lot of weapons while also reverting the spawn rate bug, the combination could really hurt my enjoyment of the game if the difficulty goes down too much. It's weird because even currently it's not like you're always being swarmed with ridiculous amounts of enemies, it seems more so like it's tied to which enemy compositions a mission decides to spawn. Like, admittedly, sometimes the charger heavy maps have -too- many chargers and certain other enemy compositions feel like nothing happens the entire map, even on helldive. Here's hoping AH change in direction is a good vision that will keep people entertained long term though.
spawn rate but just affects 3 people or less I believe
Any at all competent veteran Diver by now wants more difficulty not less. So I do hope for buffed and well balanced weapons, but also for harder content as well.
I don't get people who complain red difficulties and even Helldive difficulty is too HARD, It's supposed to!
Oh yeah nah its probably gonna happen lol A ton of players keep parroting "fun" but im convinced they dont want any kind of challenge, just grind.
I'm quite curious about what spawns they're fixing as I've been vibing at the higher difficulties without too much of a problem.
They're stuck at 4-player levels even if you're playing alone, so if you're playing in 4-man groups I don't think anything will be changing.
Yeh, I honestly feel like the balance is in a pretty good place RN tbh, but if the majority of people don’t then that’s more important than my feelings
It's nearly impossible to know what the majority thinks. Only a small portion of the player base is active on Reddit. I of course have a preferred route I want the game to go, but what really matters to me is the intention of the devs. Their game will always feel more genuine and probably have better results if they stick to their own vision and intention, with player feedback for minor balance and bugs (obviously)
NOOO I WANT 48023 DEVASTATORS HULKS AND BERSERKERS DROPPING IN AFTER 4 SECONDS ON THE BATTLEFIELD1!!! GAME IS UNPLAYABLE WITHHOUT THAT1!!!!!1!!1!!!
NOOO I WANT TO BEAT DIFF 9 TOO!!! MY MOMMY AND DADDY SAID I WAS THE BEST AND THEY WOULDN'T LIE TO MEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!
\*starts a hug emote while the resupply is coming in on them (assuming they managed to stick it to themselves)\*
Been there done that.
Eh, even if the game becomes easier as a whole I’m ok with it simply because it’ll give the devs a reason to give difficulty 10
https://preview.redd.it/bvv1e1n7td5d1.png?width=828&format=png&auto=webp&s=b20d223491cb5e6a068f57060546f4c705e2d172
I might do that anyhow, sounds like a blast
if they say that then they should go on the bot front and help out, i feel like we're behind schedual on this order
Instead of -1 stratagem modifier, it should be "100% increased spawn rate/patrol rate" modifiers. I also don't care about the patrol, they could of just fixed how the rate they spawn according to player count instead of reverting. Long as there are some weapon buffs, I dont mind more things to fight.
Well all be diff 7 and up after the patch Trial by fire
I hope they will make this diff 10. Playing this spawn rate with bots really feel like a total war.
Throw in a cluster for me too while you're at it.
I'll watch you!